SPEAKER_02 0:00

Um sometimes design projects can feel like you're rushing through them. Yeah. Like you're rushing to just get everything done. It's like a to-do list. This, this, this, this. And I look at it and I'm like, but I didn't come here to have that kind of life. I didn't come here to rush through to-do lists. I came here to have experience. When I when you're doing a project, every phase has its own beauty. And I'm looking for the beauty in every phase. So if it means I delegate the things that I can't or I'm not I'm not that good at for me to enjoy this, because you know what? This design, this um like this space will mirror the kind of energy I put into it. Yeah, and by the time people end up seeing my work, you know, there's there's um you know, there's something that calls to them. You know, yeah, what what is calling to you is the energy I put in it. It is not the perfect arrangement of things, it's how the space genuinely feels like. Yeah, there isn't a scarcity of clients, yeah. Like there isn't, there's always an abundance of what you want in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today I have Val on set. Well, Kari Busana.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Thank you for accepting our invite. Asked someone for recommendations, and they sent me. She's like, Ebu, ask, ask this babe. I'm like, okay, DMs ta-ta-ta found a number on on your socials, and this is how it started. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Uh-huh. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

We tried to make this work amidst all the things happening. We are here. We are here. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Please introduce yourself to anyone who hasn't seen your work on socials, but I'll still tag it somewhere on the episode. Hi.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

So hi everyone. I'm Valgi Kunju. I'm the founder and creative director of VG Design Collective. It's an inch design studio based in Nairobi. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Focus. What do you focus on?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

We focus on creative expression. We focus on the inner person and bring that out into the interior space. So it's very soul-driven, very, very uh heartfelt work.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

Wow. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

And that's what we are about. We are trying to do not what we're trying to do, but we're actually doing an unconventional way of going about design.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

What would would this be? This unconventional way. Or do you think you're doing differently?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Okay. So first of all, we focus on who the person wants to be as a result of being in their space. And usually who they want to be, who they feel like being, is not very logical. It's very heartfelt when you feel like you're moving to the next step of your life and you don't know how that looks like. But certain elements um take you there. So for example, how you go into nature and then it brings you to a version of yourself you didn't know existed. So I love introducing people to other versions of themselves, especially versions that they don't, they didn't think is possible for them. So I imagine how design can facilitate that.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

You have an example of someone, let's say case study. I did this, and maybe you're going to post it on the screen here. Are you open to that? If not, we'll cut it out. Don't worry. You can tell us, for example, this particular person wanted, or rather, this is what we wanted to achieve, and this is what we brought out.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Okay. So I did uh a studio, a makeup studio for a certain lady, uh, Athena. Um and during the consultation, I could feel her love for women. The feminine form, the feminine heart, and how um that can can inspire someone in life. So I took all those details and then created a concept around it. And once we implemented it, she was able to fall in love with her with her makeup, like her artistry, even more than yeah, than that.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

So would you say you do consultancy more? Or do you do a mix of consultancy and design and build?

SPEAKER_02 4:09

It's design and build, but it always starts as a consultation, it always starts as getting to know each other and also seeing whether we're a we're a good fit for each other. So I feel like people need to go into a project knowing what it's going to be about, even if it's not um like 100% what she is about, but just an introduction. I feel for it. How does the design process look like? How will you like um preparing you for the practicality of it? So most of the times, not all consultations go into the projects because people don't know, okay, so this is what I'm really getting myself into. Let me prepare. Let me yeah, let me take some time.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah. Hi yeah. You've done that, so that one falls under retail, right? The makeup store. Do you do residentials?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Do you do I mostly do residentials and uh furnished houses, furnished apartments, mostly because the style of work, my style of work is creative and expression, full of expression, full of soul and character. And that's what people like feeling when they go to stay in a place that isn't their home.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

And then uh, so you you see how you can go into a restaurant and you have this amazing experience, but that restaurant is not how you would live in your normal life. In your normal life. Yes, but then you go to you go to that restaurant for that experience. So imagine having that experience in like a more relaxed setup, like a furnished apartment or a furnished house, a place you can just get away for a few days. Yeah, I feel like those have been the best projects for me so far because they have a lot of creative freedom and uh the client is not too overly concerned with the details. Oh, got it.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yes, yeah, so you're thriving as an artist, also.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Exactly. Oh in fact, the tagline, the my bio initially used to read, I'm an artist, I'm a designer with the heart of an artist. Wait, did you remove it? Um just something different, doing something different. Oh, really? But it's something I talk about a lot. Like um how when you're when you're doing your best work, when you're serving at your highest level, and then when when you have clients who allow you to serve at your highest level, you produce work that even takes them to the next level by themselves and um gives them something that they never saw coming. Because I always feel like by the time when you start a project uh from concepts to final installations, it feels like the concepts under delivers so that the overall thing can like.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Really? Yeah, and they don't like punch you in the gut, like, oh my gosh, this concept is not, you know, because you and you understand where it's going, but then they're like, uh, this is no wow, this is not you know, actually that's the word they like to use. This is not one, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I've never had anyone say that. Like my concepts are too wow. So they're always trying to mute it down, like, uh, I think maybe this is too much. Oh, what if we can do something? Yeah, what if we do something else quieter? So when I hear that, like, okay, so you're afraid, you're like you're you're you're hesitant to go into something loud. So this feels loud to you, but what do you really want to feel? You know, so there's what someone is saying, but there's where they're really at. But most of the times when people choose to trust me with the because the concept is it can be very can be it can feel wild and interesting and creative, and that's usually a point of curiosity, like okay, how did you even create this? Because most of the times the con comments I get um involve like, okay, like I see a lot of work went into this. Like I I see the heart behind it. So because I feel understood, then let's go ahead and do it. Just because I I see how much work you put into it, let's go ahead and do it. Oh, cool. Yeah, oh that's so nice. Yeah, it's interesting, but it's not how I started. It's not how did you start?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

If you actually just because this podcast, a lot of guys who are starting out trying to figure out, you know, their journey and may see you at this point, may not understand how you got there. You know, how would you say maybe in brief, I started like this and then I ended up here?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Honestly, at the beginning I was just going with life. I was just getting opportunities and showing up for the opportunities and doing what I feel like the client needs. But at some point it became draining. Like I I felt like my soul was just constantly hitting. I wasn't at a good place. And I used to take like breaks. At the same time it said, I am not doing interior design ever again. Like I am done with this, I can't handle the pressure, I can't handle the the real life of like how the practicality of interior design. Because it's not creating concepts is the start of it. There is the actual work itself, how you move around this Nairobi, who you're interacting with on the road, the foundies, just all those um details that sometimes are not pretty. I call it the ugly part of interior design. And usually I prefer that I don't expose the client to that. Like it's why I'm here. I'm here to shield you from the uh from the ugly process. Like for the case.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

And the ones who insist most of the time. Can we can we go? Can we go in?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Now that's something we iron out during consultation. Oh, yeah. I ask, do you want to be part of the creative process? Yes. Yes. If you say yes, then I'm going to tell you how it looks like. And I'm going to show you you don't want to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And the ones who say it's okay, I want to be. Are you comfortable? Because how it seems, it's like if me as a client tags along with you, it's like it's also just not No, I'm not comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I tell them, no, I tell them right off, like, okay, I do this. There's this creative part. Like, if you want to be part of the creative process, I can just create concepts for you. Then you go and I'll give you the contacts of the foodies, where to get stuff, but I won't be there with you. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

So it's either you're I'm going by myself or you're going on your own.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Yes. Hey, it's how it's it's how I protect this um like this pure heart I have for design.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

I love it. Yeah. I love the boundary and also just understanding yourself, like, okay, this is how I got here. I started hating it, and I'm not doing this again.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yes, I can't hate something that is so special and precious to me. You know, and I won't let myself hate it because of experiences out here.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

So no, I if you want, I can just give you concepts and then feel free. But we won't do it together. Like, first of all, this doesn't seem like a very something Arizona would say, but honestly, when I go into shops, I also get overwhelmed. I go I go into a shop, I'm like, I'm too excited. I'm like, oh, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this. I want to have that space by myself. I don't want to have to like guide you along.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

And I gather my I need to gather myself.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yes, I need to gather myself. I need to be fascinated by what is in the shop. You know, I want to look at this couch and I want to dream about it. What how would this know? Like, this is client, it reminds me of them. You know, like the softness, this this she had this um aura to her, and I feel like this couch would bring her out the most, you know. But I'm with another client, so I can't do that. So I I like I feel like the most amazing answers come to you when you're not trying to get the answers. So that's what happens when I like I go into the um into into the shops, into the fabric uh store. Yeah, all of them. Any place that has interior products, it's a chance to be wowed by life, to be fascinated by what's out there. You know, and that space may not happen when we just said it's me and the client.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

I get it because also for me, there are things that have also set boundaries. And I remember I broke this boundary in this October last year, and I was like, I will never do this again. So typically I do a lot of clients who buy three things abroad. So we travel together, so either we go to Dubai or we go to China, and for that one, I kind of want you to be there so that you I don't want to deal with the payment issues. Me, I just want to choose my things and you just pay. I don't want the I don't want to huggle so much, like one plus one is two and whatever. I just want to pick this one, makes sense for you. You know, I can negotiate a little bit, I can work within a wholesome budget, but I don't want to deal with the nitty-gritty of the every line item you get. So, for example, when I'm shopping for decor, let's say I say my budget is let's say uh let me not give figures that will scare people. Let me say 5,000 bob, right? So I don't want to know that one piece is this should be around each piece, should be like this. I just want to know in lump sum, I'm going to pick things for 5,000 bob. And then when I go to the space, I'll know where to put them. As of now, I don't know what I'm going to do with it. I just know I want this one, this, this, and this. This looks like going to the space, and then now in the space, it tells me uh miminiwa hapa. Mimi niwa.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I love that. You get. Yeah, I love that as creatives, we are open to the creative process. This is how the creative process looks like in design. Yeah. That I feel like this pillow spoke to me, so I'll pick it, but I don't know where it's going to go. Yes. But I know it's going to go somewhere. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

So I am not sure. So now typically when I go with them, um, I remember now how it started was we would go with the client and then you go one by one. So one, when you're doing the uproad trips, it's crazy because you know you need to do a quick walk. It's not like casual shopping because you have a couple of days. So if it's 10 days, you have to do like and you're doing like three apartments, you get you don't have time to be like, I'm feeling like this, I'm brainstorming. It's a matter of quick, quick. Does this look like what I wanted? No. Next stop. No, next stop. You know, it's like you're walking like yeah, next stop. Then you settle into one that's okay. This looks like what I'm looking for. Then now is when I start looking individually, slowly, and whatever. Now, by that time, the client is tired. They want, let's go and have coffee, let's do lunch. I'm like, even just the walking, you're like, we don't have this kind of time. So I realized you're dragging people along, they're draining you because you have to go a lot slower. They want to ask questions and have to justify what you think. What you think, will this work? And they ask, will this work? And you're like, even me, I don't know. Even I don't know. I'm just thinking I know generally it will work, but will it? I know I'll mix this and this.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

You get yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Then I was like, Apana, let's change strategy. What we're going to do if it's attendee chip, day one to four. I don't want you with me. Please book your ticket for later or be on vacation without me. Yeah. I will meet you on day five. Or let's say on the so for three days, I do my quick walk around. I'm not selected, I just have picked and known these are my areas, these are the shops I'll come back to. Generally, these ones are good, these are good.

SPEAKER_05 14:55

So no.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Day four, I'll have my photos. I've taken photos. I'll be like, okay, generally, I'll go back to this. This is this is what I'm thinking I send you. You'd be like, yes, yes, we're in the good direction. Day five, I'll take you. Okay. I've selected. Pay for this, pay for this, pay for this, pay for this, we move. But you know, if I start with you day one, I'm already tired. I'm already tired. You, you're your chokeshad.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

With questions, with being slow, with let's have lunch, let's do coffee, let's stop a little bit, let's go. As in, I'm like, we don't have this time, you know. And then me, I like to compress my day. Start like at nine, because most of the places you it takes a long time to commute. So you're at the store maybe at nine, right? Finish at like five or six, and then now I can go to the mall, I can go to whatever. But no, you breaking me in the in between the day is so.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

So too tired after three hours, it's exhausting. Let's go too much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

So I broke this. So see, I already created this boundary with guys. So I'm like, this is how I work. Last year I made the mistake of letting the client guide the route. You get so like, no, no, no, we want to go together, let's go, and then we see whatever. So we reach day one. First of all, we have an itinerary. I give an itinerary day one. I want us to do, for example, sanitary, this, this, this, day two, I want us to do furniture and this, day three, I want us to do decor and whatever. Day five, I want us to do linen and bedsheets and whatever, day six, I want us to do cartillery and whatever. So if you're carrying day one, they're like, okay, I'm thinking we had this this store, let's go and window shop and see what's available in the market. I'm like, I don't care what's available in the market. I know what I'm looking for, you know, kind of thing. So day one, we wasted it moving around. Day two, they're like, okay, let's use the first half of the day studio to do what. Then suddenly there was lunch. Then there was what? So two days have gone. So by the time I'm actually starting by day five, I'm like, I need to go back to Kenya. I'm like tired. Like, I don't have the creative juice. I'm just like, this is never ending. Then I've a 12-day trip, no, a 10-day trip ended up being a 17-day trip. I'm just like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, so what made you break the boundary in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Because this particular client was like, uh-uh, you know, I want us to also explore for another project.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Um, since the promise of something new coming.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah. So they're like, when we are there, can we do both? Like, let's explore so that by the time we are designing the second one, we already kind of know what you want. I think I should have just separated and like, you know what? Can you come at day five? We can brainstorm with you on that day when we are going to pay for the first batch. You get yeah, yeah. So I was like, no, never again. So I actually like yours like Tuna Fatana Nini. I don't even like time we are no, no, yeah, because it's hectic, even like cushions. Sometimes you go, like me, usually like setting up things at the store. So for example, when I'm buying even the beddings, they call whatever. Actually, go, I make the bed, I put the bedrun, I put the cushions, I take the photo. When I'm coming back, I'm not fighting with you, like, oh, I don't see how it's coming. I'm like, n do hikitanda kuni kita teng is at be kenya, even do itaku na ka. Uko sawa ma uko sawa. You know, they're like, ah, okay, good. So even when I'm not there, my team member can just set it up exactly the way I did. Actually, funny thing, when we came back at some point, we needed to now set it and I wasn't available. Do you know it was like, okay, go to the drive, see the things she had put, set it up and move. Only then, the only things that maybe you can now have to play with creativity is now like the decor items. They were saying I just bring the lamp some of stuff. Yeah. Uh yeah. I get what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

I actually get what you mean. Because um, by the time we are having the consultations, I the initial consultation, I make sure I tell you that the creative process is an adventure. Me sending you a mood board, the mood board is the start of the journey. Trust me, the space will end up looking way better. Hey, yeah, I tell them that. Like, I won't, I'll tell you, this is how the design process looks like. Initially, you'll be really excited, happy to start. The concept comes in, okay. Yes, let's go. Installations begin. You don't know what's happening left, right, center, but I'll tell you, like, I'll give you expectations for that. But now, think of it as the the mood board is the beginning. So be open creatively. Okay, that's so different. What? Yeah, exactly. Unconventional. That's what I meant by having an unconventional. Like, you know, let's we are going on a creative adventure together. So let's see how good it can get.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Tell my developer clients that we'll let's develop because then they will.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

But they're all like logistics, this, this. I'm like, no, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

But are we going to get this? Is is this executable?

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Are you going to get it? No, that carpet, no, no, no, no. It's too expensive. But it's like, it's just over five, just five thousand. Or like, no, no, no, we have a budget. We have um no. So now I'm like, okay, the kind of people I like working with. After I got into that like dump, that emotional dump of of design, I was like, no, I have to decide what I want out of this design, like this design journey. And I took time out, I was like, I'm defining my five-star soul clients. The same you have a soulmate, the same you have friends who feel like you are meant to be, you know, like best friends or like um your partner. So it's like, it's why can't it not be the same for design? You know, I can have soul clients as well. I can have people who have been waiting for my kind of talent to show up. People who would love working with me and I'd love working with them. So I decided defining them as like how do they, what are their like ideas about life? You know, just creating a whole persona and then falling in love with that. So by the time I'm meeting you, I know whether or not we are a fit.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

So if you're not a fit, so you've met Abigail, Nini Nini brief. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Um, Val, this is my budget. No, no, I don't want this. I don't know that we can't do this. I need to be with you. Do you turn people down?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, like I say, maybe I have someone who can be a better, like I have this other designer friend, and I refer them to to you. Like I feel like, okay, the way you are, I feel like there's uh you'd be best for this other designer. This designer does these kinds of projects and they love doing these kinds of projects. So I'll give them their number, connect them. Because like there isn't an uh there isn't a scarcity of clients. Yeah, like there isn't, there's always an abundance of what you want in your life. Whether you want miserable, I mean like um clients who are not who are not, yeah, they're they are those ones, and they're also really good ones.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, so actually, my takeaway for every episode I have a takeaway. I love in yours the way you're like, you know what? Let me be comfortable in what I'm looking for. First of all, let me be clear of what I'm looking for, let me be comfortable in what I'm looking for, and let me be confident that there's an abundance. Nita pata, it's okay. I don't need to be desperate, and I also need to find joy in my work. So it's not just like you know, robot, fanya, produce, produce, produce, produce, produce. You know.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

So it's not uh you see how um sometimes design projects can feel like you're rushing through them. Yeah, like you're rushing to just get everything done. It's like a to-do list, this, this, this, this. And I look at it and I'm like, but I didn't come here to have that kind of life. I didn't come here to rush through to-do lists. I came here to have experience. I came here to have to create beautiful moments. And I know most of life, like um there's contrast where there are moments in life that don't feel like that, but I choose to emphasize the moments that do feel like that. And design is a huge part of it. Like I decided it's design will be a big part of it. So when I when you're doing a project, every phase has its own beauty, and I'm looking for the beauty in every phase. So if it means I delegate the things that I can't or I'm not I'm not that good at, for me to enjoy this, because you know what, this design, this um, like this space will mirror the kind of energy I put into it.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

You're right.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah, and by the time people end up seeing my work, you know, there's there's um, you know, there's something that calls to them. You know, yeah, what what is calling to you is the energy I put in it. It is not the perfect arrangement of things, it's how the space genuinely feels like.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah. Let me ask, actually, based on that, yeah, is that why were you ever employed?

unknown 23:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Oh, so hey, let's run it back. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you go to uni for design?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Okay. Tell us about that. Which uni did you go to, or college or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 23:34

UN Arab University. So even getting there, it was it was all an intuitive, um, like an intuitive journey. Because I was doing stra I was doing business in Strathmore. And then one day I woke up at some point one year, first year, one year, first year, no, second year, second year, first same. I was like, I need to come alive. I need to feel like I come alive doing what I'm doing. And I can't find that in business law or commerce. And I was like, I need to go on a journey where I find what truly calls to me. So I I I left Strath and took like I think four months, not like just a gap period where I didn't know what my life is about. And during that time, I really like went deep. I was like, you know, who am I? Who would I like to be? And all that. So somewhere in January, my parents were like, no, now you have to tell us what you want to do with your life. And then from that quiet place, I felt like interior design, degree in interior design. So I look it up and I find at that point it was Marceno offering interdesign from first year. But I was like, no, I'm not going all the way. But I feel like it's interdesign from first year and it's a degree, it's not a diploma.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Then I come I the next day I I go to UN and to the offices, and I like to find out what design courses they have, and they tell me they're actually starting an interdesign course from first year. What they had before was Bachelor of Arts, and then you major in design from third year. But now this one is a new class that couldn't even be in the system for guys to because it's a new class. Yeah. And it was starting like in like six months in May, of course, September. So end up being in the first class of interdesign. We were just 17 of us. Yeah. And that's how I I got started.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Wow. Hey, you know me, I never go into the first batches of anything other than things that I start for myself. Like you guys are trying to figure yourselves out. You need not catch me there. Because you're testing the money, the guys who you're testing and you really don't know whether it's going to work or it's not going to work, or oh, you get what's what's that first batch called?

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Oh, like the um, like oh, I I give um it's like you're the trial and error. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

The first batch of bringing like maybe lecturers, and then you're like, oh, maybe I'll begin over and you are not the best lecturers for the next level, but let's not have them.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Not me. No, you want things to be I need you to be decided when you go in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

So and other than things that I create for myself, me, I'm very random now on the things I create. But I'm coming to you. Uh-uh. I'm not coming to you as you're trying to figure yourself out.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Because I don't want even me on to I want space to figure myself out. So I don't want to go into a rigid structure. Oh, so because I'm not yeah, like wearing um like very official outfits or not very official, but quite official, and then being neat all the time. But I'm like, I want to be artistic, I want to have dreads that are as thick and colourful, you know. I want to wear pink earrings and so coming into your and I'm like, wow, I get to do this. Oh, really? I get to be this creative, yeah. But then initially, like the first two years, I was just floating through life. Oh, really? Because I had not done art in high school. And I'm coming into a space where pool knows how to draw, and I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

And there's a lot of futura.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah, I'm like, I don't even know how to do like how do you do this? What would you survive? Oh, or you caught up. Yeah, um, yeah, I caught up, but it primarily came from um that heart space, that quiet heart space of choosing to believe in my creativity, even though it's not what is happening out here. Like out here, I don't look creative, but you know what? I will tell myself I am creative, I am abandoned, I am by the time it got to that yeah, hey, I was flowing in creativity. Really? Yeah, my classmates were like, hey, where did you come from? Oh, really? Yeah, it did a complete 360, but it was two years of believing myself when I can't even hold a pencil well. I had to be taught how to hold a pencil and to sketch. Guy, to sketch. Hatching cross, hatching, how to sketch. Hey my god, those assignments used to give me stress. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Wow. Wait, how did your parents um receive you wanting to take the break now from strath?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Well, initially they were not open to it because they had viewed strath as a good starting point. But then hearing that I'm going to your n, your n was also like, okay, this is we we are from your end. They are from your n. So I was like, okay, your university is a good university.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

No, now this time you're telling them I had to stop. Like, was it like no no no no no?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah. Initially they're like, no, there's no way you're there's no way you're stopping. I'm like, uh uh me, I can't, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Ki changum.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

I rebelled. Like I can't. And now years down the line, they're like, okay, we are so bad you went. Yeah, because like I'm a firstborn and I've had like a strong academic background, so it's like there's a way I'm supposed to be, but then that's not where my heart is feeding me into. Yeah, because like I am like my background has a lot of intelligence, so like I'm sure I want to see how that intelligence would look like in the real world. And I'm here saying, No, it's life is not just about intelligence alone. Like, I want creativity. But when I told my mom intradesign, she was like, actually, that makes sense because you used to arrange the house a lot, like you used to rearrange the house, change the layout, even her bedroom, our bedrooms. I changed the layout, and she'd become like, oh, okay, this looks nice. And I'm glad she gave me the space to like to explore that. So by the time I'm hearing that in my heart, intradesign, I saw all the all the scenarios from the time I was a young kid. Like, okay, this actually adding up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Wait, wait, wait. It's of Strath. Strath don't come bite me there. So I know the outfits and the whatever. But news and the business school the type of people.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Kabisa. Kinatisi. Kina T C um This course, so now you've done generally, let's say, five and a half years. Was it senior of uni because of four? Uh yeah. And business one, should I say one and one same kit come back here? Yeah. Did you ever yeah, did you ever feel like, oh, FOMO? Like people I know have moved on, are moving on? No. You never did.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

No.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

No, like me coming alive to my life was the most important thing. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was like, I don't care what anyone else is doing. As long as I wake up and I love my life, I will take that over anything.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Wow. Hiya. When you started your business, was there a particular reason why you didn't look for employment? Was it that you didn't get work?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Hey, because then let me tell you. See, I'm telling you, I did a 360 from third year, but I got a first class. And by the time we were finishing, uh like the pin-up, I had like three job interviews. Because they come to the for their pin up and they look at like the work you've displayed, and work was really good. So I I got like three calls. I remember there's uh I had to there's an interview, let's say like on a Wednesday, on Tuesday night, I was like, hmm, employment. I don't know. Really? Yeah. The next morning I woke up to get ready for the interview. I was like, no, I'm not, I'm not going for that interview. You please. Yeah, and I I didn't go for I didn't show up for any interview.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

So at that point, what are you visualizing? You're thinking, okay, what's your plan in your head? Like, I'll go and start a business. I'm uh I'll live first and figure myself out.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Hey, now when I was doing my fourth year project, I started working on a furnished apartment. Like I had a friend who gave me the opportunity to work like on a furnished, like furnish their house like an Airbnb.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

So I I did it and I loved it. I loved every step of it. Such that by the time I was clearing school, it's okay, it's like um, it was just a friend, like we were doing it together. So by the time I was clearing school, it was already making money. Oh so and it was making good money. Like money I wouldn't have thought I could see within like just me leaving school.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Oh, you were doing it together as in not the project as in the Airbnb after you finished it. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yes. So it's like you bring the money, maybe maybe in the creativity, and then we create this thing, and then we can share like the profits or like yeah and the runnings of it all.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

So by the time I was clearing school, I was already like I was already making money, and it's from something I loved doing. So I was imagining how would it look like if I could create more units like this ones. So the kind of acceleration experience in this project, I didn't feel like I'd have it at the workplace. Especially because when I was in school, I had a lecturer who saw my potential as like who really saw me. And he he he showed me how my uh my like my talent or like my gift is conceptualizing, coming up with ideas, and he helped me develop that. So I did that, I developed those ideas in the Airbnb. And I didn't feel like when I looked at the work environment, it didn't look like there's space for that. So many, I'm coming from a place where I haven't I know how it feels like to be stifled, like in business school. So I even even uh yeah, so um even high school a bit, like there's a lot of pressure in high school, so I know how it feels like to be in a high pressure situation and to be stifled creatively, and I felt like that was the workplace, and I was not going for that.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Wow, so it's not anyway, so at least you had some income and something coming in, so you also weren't feeling pressure, like oh my god, doesn't mind mozzaring patekazi. I need to have work you get. I didn't have that pressure.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

So my mind wasn't even there. I was when I was finishing school, I was planning my wedding. I was I was just there was stuff happening in my personal life, like good stuff that I wasn't I didn't feel the need to focus on that. But I feel like um again, that inner guidance system was orchestrating things for me. So like I posted the air uh the Airbnb, like when the photos went up, someone came to the inbox, the Airbnb inbox, and was like, Wow, I love what you've done. I've given could I have your number? I give it to a friend of mine who's moving into Kenya, who's moving in, yeah. So like that's that was the first client I got. Then the same person who I've never met before, like up to that point had never met them. They're like, My sister, my sister needs her bedroom done. See, you can go do her bedroom. Oh wow, yeah. Someone who didn't even visit the Airbnb at that point, even to express just photos, yeah, just photos. And then uh uh my friend was like, so just post this Airbnb photos on your Instagram because initially I was making in high school in campus, I was making like baskets, I was doing some crafty things. So um they were like, just post them on your Instagram just for the fun, see what will happen. You know, post a video, we did a video, a shoot for the fun of it. We thought it was to get like clients for the Airbnb, not for the design business. Yes, and then at that point, client side refer, like uh my friends uh would give my number to their uh their colleagues, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

So it wasn't planned out, it was all creative, and that's the kind of the kind of journey I prefer. Like it's a creative journey. I don't want to know what's next. You know, like let me stumble upon something amazing. Oh wow, yeah, it doesn't need to be such a free spirit.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah, oh my goodness, that's the coolest thing ever. That's such a nice journey when I think about it. Like you didn't have that stress of figuring ABCD, you didn't feel like pressured to have a you know eight to five job, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

As I've said, like my background is was very intelligence-based. Yeah. So I wanted to explore what the other side of life looks like when you're a creative spirit, where you don't have to know what life is going to give you. You just you're just available to receive, you're available to receive. And so it's like let me see between these two perspectives which one I like the best. And so far, I like the creative one.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And how was it adjusting to because this is more or less like how do I call it a business? Is it a business really? It's because you weren't intentional about making it a business. It's like, oh, one person comes, you do their work, they refer you to a second person. How is it adjusting into now making money from it? You know, because could I or did you or is it all fun? You know, were you making money? Because there's so many other things in the background that need to come in place. You the ugly part of Indian design in Akujapo, you have to balance and figure out, okay, um am I losing money out of it? Or at that point, is your headspace like me? I just want to do something nice.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

That's how it started. Okay. I want to do something nice, and I I was intentional about not bringing money into the focus in the initially because I I don't know how that will like I don't want that to limit my expression.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

So what if I discover an avenue that can make money, but it's not exactly what I want to do. Because there's there's um there's a dilemma that happens when you can be good at so many things, but they don't bring you joy.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

So I want to be good at things that genuinely bring me joy and can also make me like a good amount of money. So initially, honestly, I had support where I was dropped for consultations, like I was I I made losses, like the first few projects. But it's because I was also figuring out what does it look like? Like how does inch design look like when I'm doing it for someone else? Yeah. So someone has brought me in to do like their um their living room. I take dimensions, maybe I have to come back and like take more dimensions or like just do something. All those trips, the fuel, the words, like those technicalities. I feel like you can get into stress when you're concerned about making money.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

So I had the space to explore that. And then now once I was confident in what I'm about and what like how I'd like things to flow, now I'm like, okay, now when I charge this, I actually mean this amount. Like, please don't. Like, I have done my math.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I know. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, okay. So that's important for other viewers to read and understand. You get there's actually a guest I hosted, I think you watched, I I don't know if you've watched, but it's up on YouTube. Um, Olive.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Olive, I love Olive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

So also for her, like when I look at it, there are things that she tells me she was able to do out of the privileges that were in her life. Even for me right now, that's what I mean. Even the podcast is just barely out of privilege, in all honesty. And I usually say this is a podcast that needs to be very open so that we're not lying to people of A, B, C, D. And I'm not also telling you, I'm working hard, yes, but I also have this kind of support in the background. Yeah. So that you're not like, oh, but that one, you know, she's just working, working, working. Even me, I'm working, working.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Well, am I not getting she's self-made in every sense of the word. I'm like, no, it's there's no shame in having support. Yeah. And I think the most beautiful thing is that everyone has their own kind of support. So my kind of support is not what your kind of support will be. Like there's a way your life has, like, there's a way your life wants to look like if you're in your most thriving state of mind. Yeah. So if you put yourself in a state where I genuinely want to thrive, I choose not to let fear rule me. But I want to thrive, life will show you where, like, how to go about it. Yeah. It'll just put you in the path of someone who is willing to support you. You know, or I yeah, so I feel like people have like because you're so individual and you're so unique, then we all have our unique support systems. And just because mine looks like this doesn't disqualify you. Yours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Yeah, because Hashi was very clear about her support, it was not Olives, was very clear that her support was not necessarily financial, but it was also she had a baby young, and she was like, her folks are like, you know what? When do funny kitun attacker? Mimi ni takuchung tauto or whatever, you that this should not be the thing that's holding you back. You get so she was like, I had a lot of support with that since I can I can try. Even her, she said there's a time she had like uh, should I say blackout period where she's like she hated, she didn't know what she was doing, and she was home for months. So she had that support of okay, I don't need to have home, yeah. I can be home.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

You're going to eat, you're going to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah. Even me for for me, I had support. Um, of there's a period also I didn't want to do stuff. I was like, I don't like what I'm doing. And I was home for a really long time. You get actually there's a time when I left job when I was starting my design farm, I wasn't leaving knowing what I'm going to do. In fact, I told my husband, maybe I'm coming home to be a housewife. That was the plan. It lasted two months. I was bored. You get that you see that privilege of ah, it's okay. That's what you want to do. Yeah, it's okay. And in that period, it's like, okay, what do I want to do? You know, just thinking slowly and thinking deeply and being like, okay, let me try this. And if it doesn't work, so I think maybe that privilege that I have gives me the leverage to just experiment and say, okay, I'm starting a podcaster. Or ah, I don't want to do this anymore, so I'm not taking any more clients anymore. It's okay. You know, that kind of thing. So it's I love that you've brought it up and you that you're honest about it, you know, and even that Oliver's honest about it. You know, not everyone has that. There are people who are waking up and they're like, hey, may I have to feed my kid, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this, and you don't you can't catch a break to think. You know, you can't even catch a break to think, you know. Let me ask client feedback, how was it adjusting to client feedback? Which was different from uni. You know, uni, pin up, you know how it is, and then now reality. Was it difficult, for you? It was like, ah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Uh client feedback during what's at what stage? When you've left. When you've left. Okay, like during uh when I've left the site.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

No, when you've left uni, now you're doing your own thing here and there, whether you're making money or not, but you're getting feedback from clients. Was it different from how you're receiving from your lecturers in uni?

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Um not really. Okay, like um, what I can say is that when I was in campus, I felt like my uh some of my best lecturers saw the potential in my work and I was able to like express it uh like well, but now coming into the real world where you have clients and you have projects, um I came to realize that sometimes the feedback is not really about the project itself, it's about what the client is going through. Expound ten months. Okay, so when people bring in an interior designer, they bring you into their home, their space. And whether they know it or not, subconsciously, they're letting you in. And especially during consultations, that you get to hear how their day works, you know, how their family moves through the moves moves through the um like the space. Yeah. And sometimes that can that is not really tied to your work as a designer or how good you are, but it's like the the family dynamics at that particular time. So sometimes when I get feedback, particularly about like a concept, I look at the feedback as a cre a creative opportunity to co-create.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Like we can't know about some very specific details about you as a client if you don't tell me. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Okay. And I have to be brave enough to ask you those questions without having to feel like I'm intruding, because I genuinely need that information. You know, how how do you want your family to function? You know, what is your relationship with the television? You know, do you want it not to be there so that you can have more family time? But if I present a concept and you feel like it doesn't work, then It's not an attack on my creativity, really. It's more about what resonates with you. So initially, at the very, very start, I was getting offended. Like with like, but this is a really good concept. You know, I give you two ideas, I give you two concepts, like you're better. Then you choose the less like wow one. I'm like, but this is the obvious choice. Obvious to you. Yeah, obvious to me. But then when I hear what they're like when I really because I like asking them questions. Like, in fact, this is a bit uh nude for me because I'm the one asking, I'm usually the one asking the questions. So like you're that you're asking me questions, but I'm on the other side most times. Because I want to understand, okay, so not this concept, why? You know, like just the heart of it without my offense, like laying my offense at the table, like, okay, there's something here. And over time I came to realize that wow, whatever working with clients can be like a new adventure we go on together, where yes, I'm the creative here, but I I can pick apart things that spark you up and incorporate them and design out, like the studio one. Yeah, you know, where that's not the initial idea I had. But I'm like, okay, you love women, like I want, like, let me fall in love with that as well, you know. And now we get to co-create this space. But then we we co-create at the initial, like at the move at the concept stage, not during implementation. Implementation, like we just flow. Yeah, because I assure you. Trust me, it's gonna be good. Yeah, it's going to be good. Yeah, and I like I'm I really I'm clear that decision fatigue is real. You don't be a part of it, you don't finish this project and hate the entire like not even appreciate it because you are not there. You are not you had you're too tired, you know. Yeah, so I feedback is not no feedback sounds like a very serious word, but it's really like wow, we can we can go on this thing together, you know, like how they look like, you know, like just I I want to I want to I want to drench me in you, you know, like how can I bring you into this space? Let's co-create. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Actually, for me, one of the projects that I love the most was a residential, it was like a villa. I for this most fantastic. Yanni, this one, I'll always talk about you in this podcast because you're you're just the best. He was a fantastic, fantastic client in terms of he was not easy, he was just going on the journey. You get I'm not saying that everything I am presenting was good or was what he wanted, but you'd be like, okay, I'm struggling to visualize this one. What do you think if this, this, this, you know, because us guys, we prefer a B C D. And then you get you're like, oh, I hear you, you know, and it turned out so good. I love it so much. I wish I went back to do like professional photography for it. It was just so amazing. And the client was fantastic, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

What if what that's what life is like? What are the those are the moments we're really after in life? And what if we can recreate them over and over again? Because that's what I'm after in design, like recreating these moments over and over again. Because originally I did a project where I loved it, like I I loved the whole concept, but then the client was like, I like I see I see what you I see what you were doing here, but could we change the color palette into this? It's not they give me a guideline, and then she was like, No, but I have worked so hard on this. But then that moment of curiosity. Okay, so like if I yeah, yeah, yeah, let me explore that. And then I did. And I went into creating, and it was like an adventure. It just kept on giving now the designing part and then the implementation. By the time that came into the space, like it's like wow, Val, how did you do this? Is this our house? Do we get to live here? Wow, and that's because I was open to the feedback. I didn't have to take offense, I didn't I didn't have to take it. Just because I've worked so hard on a concept doesn't mean it has to work. Because the point is not for it to work, the point is that I put in the creative energy. Once you put in creative energy, it's going to come back to you. You know, it's like you're it's like you're just depositing and depositing and depositing. You're not, I'm not getting drained as a result of it. I'm just getting more energy. So, like you've just given me energy. When I sat down and did the concept the first time, I was so excited. You know, I went, I did what? That's the point right there. The point is not the end result, the point is moments in the journey that can be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah. And actually, just to piggyback on that, yeah, just noting that this particular client of yours also was participating. They're not like value, the creative, you know. And then but I thai visit full stop. Now, what what what feedback is that? Like, I don't like it. It's what do I work with that? What do I, you know, how do I move from here? You know, yeah, what do I do option?

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Yeah, what if you work with uh reds? Reds, greens, and and um uh those burgundy, those green, like our oranges. They they didn't just hit on it and be like, no, they're like, let's do it. But then they were just involved the the very first time. After the concepts came through, like now you're the creative.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Also, for me, the client that I'm saying. So actually, what I'm thinking, same thing. Like, they were not involved. In fact, he's not even in the country, but he was building in the country. So it was also like he was like, you know what, just show me generally wherever you need me to sign off, sign off. But the rest of the things, I am trusting your guidance. You get so it was so I would go even just pick materials and put them and be like, uh-uh. Where I'm undecisive, I'd ask my team. This guy, guys, I'm feeling this, but there's something that's missing. Someone would say, uh-uh, me, I don't like this. When I give him options, I'm like, okay, I have this, this is what I'm thinking, and this is what you would what what feels more like you, you know. So it was such a nice like collaboration. By the time I'm picking out stuff, Yanni, it was just fantastic. So actually, let me summarize this part so that guys can learn from it, yeah. Okay, I think it would be important for designers to have an audit of the design process for every client, just to see this, this, and this aspects worked, and this is what I want to lift into my next project. They were saying, why not recreate that over and over and over again? Because I'm always so for me, it's I'm very intentional about like looking at maybe like the financials that this so that you know upper tulier, upper to lifanya nini ni ni ni ni here. Maybe you you get we could do better, but I've never really thought of being like uh-uh, actually, what are we saying needs to be carried forward to the next, you know? Yeah, how can we build upon what so that we know on the next line this is important for us?

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Yeah, you know, yeah, and even how was I when I was doing this project? Exactly. Because that's a huge sometimes I feel like as humans we place too much emphasis on the outside world, on the external factors and how we are victims to it, how we have no one supporting us, no. What if you take the responsibility back and you have the power in and of yourself to create the kind of reality you want? So for me, it looks like being present, like being very aware of the state of heart I'm in. From the from the time I meet a client to the time we are doing the project, because when I'm not in the right heart space, things fall apart. It's like you're the one holding everything together energetically. Yeah, yeah. So the moment you start feeling like things are not working, then they stop working. Because now you're like, okay, I let doubt in.

SPEAKER_05 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Yeah, but now if I am in this place where I feel like this is an amazing project, I get to be around this client a lot. I get to be around their space a lot, keeping that energy throughout, which for me looks like creating moments during the project for me to fall in love with like to continue falling in love with the project. So I normally tell clients I'll come to your space, like during work hours, definitely, but I'll just sit here for like two hours and just imagine how it feels like living here.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Let me obsess about your space.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

You're such a creative. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Like I want you to love this space, but I also need to flow in the space. What does this space want to be like for you? I don't know you internally fully, but like there's there's like a version of you that exists in this space. So you're just in my living room there, pittering, I'm just in while you're chilling. Thinking. Yeah, yeah. And most of them are like, they're like, okay, that's new. Yeah, okay, do it, do it. I've never had anyone do that, okay. You're most welcome. In fact, I won't even be there. You know, feel free. Because I realize people love being thought of. People love knowing that you care about them even past the money they are giving you. I think that's what people are really after when you when they're working with you. They want to feel understood and felt, but in a way that I do it in a way that doesn't overwhelm me as well. So, like, um when they realize that you're actually there, you you're you're so for them, you're so for them that even more than they realize. Yeah, then now they let you, they're like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Do you think that you actually you you actually care, you genuinely care about this project. Not because you want to finish and just move on to the next one, but you care, you care even more than I do. You care even in a creative sense. You know, most I I realize people can be very protective of themselves, like clients. You know, they're like, I'm going to give you money, you know, like I don't know. I worked hard for this money. And what if you make a mistake? What if you do what? But then the moment they feel like you care, then they're able to navigate even like through the issues when they come up with a lot of grace. Because issues do come up, and you need them to know that I care.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

So actually, what happens when yeah when you made mistakes on site? What what how have you been navigating?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

That's why I usually so first of all I prepare them by telling them that the process is ugly and sometimes d things don't work out the way you want them to work out.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

So you start with honesty. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

I say this project will take um like three months, and I won't update you on a day-to-day basis, like I'll work on a week-to-week basis, because maybe like the first two days I could yet be somewhere, but I'm I'm going to be here. So it's like I give you reasons, I I don't give you a perfect scenario of how things will flow. I tell you we are we'll work with time frames and design has many moving parts. There's the designer, there's the phoneie, there's the plumber, there's all these things. And I and you should trust me that we will we are working with the moving parts, and when you're working with many moving parts, they're going to be mistakes. But you know what? We will be there to correct the mistakes.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

And the thing is, you don't have to be there. That's why I just leave the creative process alone. Mistakes happen. And I won't tell you about the mistakes. Okay. I'll tell you after they've happened, after you've seen the space. And if you want to know, I'm like, yeah, like this table came and it couldn't fit through the door.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

So what happens for the ones who want to be there day to day, let's say live on now the shopping and the creative part, leave now execution because that's really not creative. It's more like, okay, we are getting this done. Let's say on the hard stuff. Yeah. The ones who want to be there, how do you have you ever had those? Or do you also clearly tell them, Apana, when you're doing this, I need space?

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Yeah, I tell them I need space.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Really?

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah, I tell them for me to thrive and for me to create like the kind of work that is worthy of you, I need the creative space. You can't micromanage me.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

No, so not coming here to see. But here there's because you know, sometimes on site, things look so bad before they become good.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Not sometimes all the time they look bad, they look terrible. And it's because you just it's it's you know how you do your makeup and you have to wear foundation in it, it just looks like you're a clown. But then you when you blend it out, like it comes to the hair, and then the eyelids, you're just like, What is this? Yeah, so I I feel like uh during the process there's a lot of hand holding where I'm taking care of their emotions. I'm like, I know it's this is good, it's going to look bad, but it's going to look really, really good. Really good. Better than you could expect. So are you willing to wait for that?

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Yeah. So for the ones who come, so I've had a client who's been like, for example, um, I want you to do, let's say what? I want you to do this renovation, but to go to happa. So let's say I want us to do the living room, but we are still living in it. That means I kien a job, so step by step, as the things are looking ugly, and onakila sequence, and they are panicking, like, oh, but he in a canin hai jamali, like, I'm not attacking a sanding. You know, we don't even have you ever been, or for those you're like me.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Yeah, I've been there where like they they are they are present for most of the time and it makes me really uncomfortable, but then I try and give uh uh turn the attention to what is working and the things that they love. So, like even in the process. Yeah, so like if the standing hasn't been done the way, I'm like, don't worry, like it's it's going to be done, but look at how we brought out your idea. Don't you think that's nice? Yeah. I'm sure you like it. When you direct them into a state of appreciation, then they stop focusing on yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Oh my goodness. And let me just run you back a little.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

How do you think education has shaped your career? Why I'm bringing this question in is when I tie to your end, guys, I don't know if this is the same lecture, and I'll ask her also, because there seems to be a certain set of lecturers, or is it one who is very keen on nurturing and guiding the students into what their strengths are in your end? Because Olive said the same thing on her episode. There's one particular one who noticed her strength in conceptualizing and told her, by the way, is if it was in Guinea, achana tu nazo. Achana tunazo, and she ended up thriving so much in that. You get? Yeah. Do you feel you know?

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Yeah, it was an it was a good experience, like going to your end specifically. Because there are all types of lecturers, but when a lecturer sees your potential, which was the same as mine, like in third year, I felt like I said being seen by this particular lecturer. One. Yes. Also, it's not like a tia collective. No, it's not a collective. Yeah, and if different lecturers for different people, because like this lecturer took an interest in me, but for another friend of mine, it's another lecturer who took an interest in them. So it and then because it's also based on how the lecturers think themselves.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

So if they're very logical and very like um system-oriented, and you look like you have that kind of talent, then they will perceive you that way.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Yes. You're right.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Yeah, if you're very creative and it is a lecturer who's very expansive in the way they think, because the kind of lecturer who helped me out had like studied abroad and he was exposed to other ways of thinking, then he brought that and he could see this is what this girl is trying to do. She doesn't have the language for it, she doesn't even know what she's doing most of the time. But this is it. Yeah, this is it. He was a very sorry, he was a very he was a very key um like encourager and supporter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

So it may not necessarily be a UN thing, it was a fate thing. Would I say it that way? You know, because I was trying to think, is it the same person with Olive? You know, like is this like there's a set of specific so my my thing was, is it that your n has better lectures? Let me call it as blunt as that. Do you get? Is what I was trying to figure out. Is it you know now?

SPEAKER_02 59:36

I feel like it just goes back to the kind of support that is inherently yours. I feel like the moment you tune into who you are and who you'd like to be, like into that quiet part of yourself, that quiet, powerful part of yourself, you'll be gathered to where you need to go. So I don't think it's a matter of schools or lecturers. It's not exactly it's not the external world. Like that's why we let's not put a lot of focus on the external world. You'll be as much you as you can be, and you'll realize life will open up for you. So you may go to like NIT and something in you, something in that place speaks to you, and you end up going there. So and and then you meet someone who will support you and you can support each other, you know. So it's really like can you be like uh just go back to yourself first. That inner place has a lot of the answers. And like you're willing to be, be willing to be guided from that place because then you're able to receive the help and even see it when it's being given to you. You you're right. You may not see it actually. You won't even know how it how it looks like when it comes. Because usually most of the time you don't even know what you need sometime until it comes to you. Yeah, you may be asking for something that you want, but there's something else you need, and then by you being in a state of receiving, allows you to get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

So I want to take back something I said some episodes a couple of episodes ago, just based on this. Yeah. So I've always held firmly that you need to work a bit to get a bit more experience before you start your own farm. I'm changing my mind today based on this episode. And let me say why.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

Why? Yeah, why?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

I'll say that because some of the things we say as people are influenced by our own journeys. You get? And our own structures and the way or the kind of placement we are in life. So let me give an example. For me, my journey has been before employment was very corporate, very rigid, and getting clients who are also very systematic. Like, I want budgets, I want shed lines, I want time uh schedules, follow these timelines, I need this by this time, I need to replicate many drawings. You get so it was really not a creative path. So for when I think about it, when I'm taking it back, when I think about it, there's no way you would have thrived in my journey. You get? And there's no way I would have thrived in yours. Yeah. So for me to blanket statement and say, have experience first, for people who went my kind of journey, need to have that experience first because it's very cutthroat. And if you go out and start your own farm and get the same kind of clients, you won't survive. But if you go through your side, you you're not meeting the same clients as me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Who who you know they don't need that level of precision, order, timelines, rigidity. No, it must be like this, then you get.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

So for you, it's like let's flow. It's it's going to flow. We'll learn on the way, we'll enjoy it, we'll you get so I take it back. I take it back, you know. So everything I think needs to apply to your kind of journey. So are you going corporate? Are you going, you know, this kind of thing? You get. Yeah. If you're going very commercial kind of projects, working, doing maybe the oracle kind of project, you know, those kind of offices, there's no way you're going to just leave school and thrive with those guys because they give you like um expectations, they give you like handbooks. You can read like a 300-pager of guidelines for you before you start doing the nanny. You get so there's no way you're going to chuck from just school and then thrive in such an environment. You get because it's like ta-ta-ta, did you follow the brand colours? Did you follow this? Brand colours is the list of your issues, and that's the easiest to deal with. You get. There's a lady um called Jackie. Jackie's episode, guys, go watch it after this video. How she does a lot of projects that embrace sustainability, wellness, and stuff like that. And she was like, There's a project they did. How many pages? Is it a 300 page or something? We'll insert the correct number here of documentation that she had to read before she started the project. And I'm like, my God, can you imagine handing a project like that? You as you, you know, it's like by page three, I'm like bored, I'm tired. It's like, what are these? You know, it's so confined, it's and it's written. You can't go and change whatever to all my creativity told me you must have here to eat.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

You get you and that there's a pool who thrive in that. In in that. It's crazy, but the pool who thrive in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Who thrive in that. So for that kind of person, to cashule and see how people do their things, how they've taken these briefs from this kind of client. Because you it's nice to not learn or do the same mistakes. Go see how they take the briefs, go see how they respond to the feedback from the client, go see which pages they missed out when they were doing those kind of people and your path. So I've changed my mind. Hiya. If you're going to give an aspiring interior designer, first of all, I'd like you to choose an age group. Is it someone who is trying to figure out whether they want to go into interior design? Someone who's in uni, someone who has left, someone who has worked a little bit maybe for five, six years, or someone running their business. Choose the persona first and then give them advice based on your experience, what you think would help them along the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Pressure. Um someone who's in uni.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Okay, let's go. Uni students, excuse any.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

The kind of advice I'd give them. Yes. Like giving give yourself the chance to explore who you are creatively. I feel like when you're in university, there's the least amount of pressure. You don't have bills to pay, you don't have kids, you don't have like a lot of you may not have family issues, you just have school, you just have class and home, assignments and home. And that will be the best uh opportunity where there's no pressure to explore who you are creatively. Explore. Expro. Expro. Explore what makes you come alive. Explore what wants to be what wants to come forth from you. So, and also allow yourself to be in positions that um people can find you and you can collaborate with other people on just for the sake of creativity.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Also, how how would you stay proactive? And how would they stay proactive? Like in you know, in growing, getting knowledge, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

It's I think the most important thing has been um nurturing the love you have for design.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Because I feel like when you start practicing it, there are many things that can take away from how much you love design. And uh creating a space uh to be by yourself and love design and appreciate design. So like um traveling, uh just enjoying design for the sake of design, not for the sake of a project. There's there's someone I love listening to other artists and being inspired by other artists, and there's one called Oswald Masharia. He's a photographer, and he was in your end actually. I think he did architecture. And there's a time he came to speak to us when I was in school for like a design week. And there's something he said that really stuck with me. He was like, as a creative, is as primarily a creative, allow yourself to take on your own projects, allow yourself to nurture the love you have for your medium. And the the where he is now, like he's doing all types of I don't know if you know about him, all types of unique, he's done marvel work, like he's done he's done amazing things. And I could sense that he is very protective about the heart he has for photography. So if if if you're always just up and about doing projects, running around from one side of Nairobi to the other side of Nairobi, you know, like where is it? What time do you have to nurture the love you have for your craft? Because after all is said and done, will you remember all the you want to rem what you want to remember are the moments, the beautiful moments that them the experiences that you create for other people, how it felt doing that. So fight for that space and now create your boundaries around that. Because I assure you, sometimes people feel like it's like I'm not allowed to have boundaries because the client, you know, like the client is always right. Or no, this is not this is not the traditional way of working where I come and you just mistreat me from here to next year. Yeah, no, it's a collaboration. I am coming with talent, you are coming with ability. We are we get to work in this moment in time, we get to experience each other. So let's treat each other, you know, with the honor the other person deserves.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:48

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

You know, and now when you when you allow yourself to to be like that for yourself, then you won't tolerate something from other people. You know, and now people know how to relate with you, like based on that. They respect you more. Doesn't matter you look like this. Because like I always get, no, like how old are you, or even when you're working on projects, like food.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:07

Like, where does age come in this story?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

Food, like at our dream, you mean you're like um they'll they're coming and they're like, I'm like, Mimi see just Miss Chana. Or when you're going to shops or stores, and hey, the people they're like, oh, so koshul, nimi for like five years. But then when you speak from a point of authority, authority as is built from an internal place, then the respect will come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:41

Wow. And then last but not least, yeah, do you how do you connect with other peers? So this is finding love. So what you're mentioning about Osman Masharia is creating your own projects, finding a way to fall in love with your art, with your craft, you know, just exploring. But do you also connect with peers in the industry, whether they're not interior designers, because you can be connecting with also artists, photographers, you know. How do you do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

I love connecting with artists most of the time. Okay. Because they are in the wavelength that I'm in.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Artists run, I could paint and stuff. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

Like the way they think, um, they think wild and they think there's a way they think that is very expansive. And I love that kind of mentality. I I want to feel more unhinged, like more how good again, how good can it get? Like, I don't just do ceiling level stuff, you know. So I I um I connect with select designers, but not too much. Because again, unfortunately, sometimes all you want to do is just complain about like maybe um clients, or like we it's it can be a hard industry because of all these external factors. And I'd rather we don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:01

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

No, we don't have to. That's like victim mentality. I I know this stuff exists, but it doesn't have to exist for you. So the more you focus on something, the more it grows. The more you focus on how bad things can be, the more that grows. So I don't want to hear if a design is telling me about hey, hey, you know, I have this, I'm like, mm-mm. You have the power to change that. Do you or do you not want to work with the client? Genuinely I don't, but I have to cause money. You don't? Yeah, don't. If you want to work with them, set boundaries, you know, respect them and let the allow you allow them to respect you as well. So, like, don't come here and we pity party. Uh uh, like life is too exciting to pity party. There's so much more to be done. Yeah, so much. You you don't want to just stay in a state of helplessness. I wouldn't, I wouldn't support that. Yeah, yeah. So I like connecting with designers who feel like they're powerful in their own right, you know, who feel like the world is working for them, that they are moving, they're getting more than they ever bargained for. You know, they're not following all the rules, but somehow life is really working out for them. Yeah, those are the kind of stories I want to hear. That's the kind of person I want to be inspired by.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

And these artists that you're hanging out with, where are you hanging out with? For the ones who want to go and hang out with them also. Is it guys that you also because you know you guys, your end had also the artists, there were those are wide array, and you could have made a lot of connections back in uni. So where?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:33

Actually, uh, the connections I made in uni, like the designers, my designer friends are the ones we like we refer clients, like we help each other out, like with sourcing, with um with uh just basically yeah, sourcing and client work.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:51

So like if I'm not able to do some technical work, they can do it for me at a ch at a at a rate, like by which others community. But for um networking and those opportunities, I like going to artist studios, to furniture shops. I just want to talk to the foundy, like yeah, like I want to I just there's there's a perspective that can be found there that isn't found in other places. Yeah, and it doesn't uh when you ask me that question, it doesn't look like it happens intentionally, but it's like this week I just feel like talking to someone creative. You know, so maybe I'll go to Ember Creatives and then I'll just hang around a photographer, or I'll just I just want to be around them and like you know, I want to be inspired by their craft. Because the interesting thing about design is that it's just one medium. But when I immerse myself in other mediums and I go for like paint and sips, and I just get to do to be around other creatives, then whatever they're doing rubs off on me.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

You're right, you're right. You can't just be in a cabox.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Like life is so wide, you know, there's so many things going on, and it's actually something I'm working on more and more, like just getting out there and being inspired by other people. Just you may not be in the creative because I'm so good at transmuting things, so like just hearing your story, and you know, it's like I can grab something and then I transmute it into design.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah, wow. So we're going to end the podcast by Val's quotes. I want to feel unhinged.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:21

Oh my not put in the thumbnail title, you need it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

Oh my god, your face button my face is getting goodness, yes, but most importantly, guys, I want to tell you about a drop that we are doing in June. So we are dropping a notebook here that's going to help designers watch the episodes, intentionally see what they're taking away from each episode and how it applies to their life at that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

You get interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

So, if you want to pre-order, the link is going to be here. Yeah, so I'm really looking forward to creating like a community of people who also learn from it. Just don't watch ille passively, oh, okay, because then it's moved on. You get that they're nice nuggets that you pick from everyone, and then by the end of six months, it's like, oh, I implemented this and this and this, and this is how it applies specifically to my life. Yeah, and in January, oh, I'm a whole new person, you know. You get so guys, and then in order, and then we started this community of ours. We will be discussing, they'll be at a book club, you know. We watch an episode, we say this what is applying to me, just small, small prompts here and there, and then you know, we also bond and form community, yeah. So go watch, comment on this episode, tell us what you've learned here, and you're going to drop your social media handles. Please tell us what are we dropping? When we find you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:57

Saur Instagram. I'm going to drop the link here. Thank you so much. Until next time. Bye.