SPEAKER_02 0:02

One of the most expensive mistakes you can make is saying yes when you should have said no.

SPEAKER_05 0:07

I put myself in a position to say no, I cannot do this.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Because not every opportunity is a good opportunity for you.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

If I proceed with this thing, I'll waste your time and I'll waste your money and I'll be crucifying my reputation.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Sometimes protecting your reputation means walking away.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

They design that might cost less. But for this design, this is what you're going to work with.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Welcome to interior design and money. Hi guys, welcome back to Inter Design and Money, the show where we talk honestly about interior design and the money behind the work. Today I have Albert who was here on season one of Classroom versus Experience. Yes? Yes. So thank you so much for honoring the invite. Thank you for another invite. I love being here. Uh thank you. Thank you so much. So for anyone who didn't watch, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Hi, everybody. My name is Albert McCambi. I'm an interior designer. I'm a brother, my son, I'm a friend. And today I'm playing the role of a friend to a big guy, somebody who we've uh we've known each other for a couple of years, and I'm hoping to have a productive moment with uh with her. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Are you feeling anxious?

SPEAKER_05 1:28

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Are you scared?

SPEAKER_05 1:30

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Because a couple of people when I reach out, they're like, hey, about money. Hey, you need sensitive.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Going back to what I've told you a few minutes ago, I think when you get into business, you need to lose shame. There's a lot of things that you're going to go through in this journey. And uh, if shame is part of who you are, then you're not going to you're not going to succeed. You're going to work on eggshells in in so many things. So you need to just be bold.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Little bold. Yeah, you just need to be bold. You need to approach, you need to learn how to approach people, learn how to approach situations, learn to be at the forefront of everything. So I can say yes, to some people, it is a bit touchy, it's a touch of a subject. But we need to speak up uh for ourselves. We need to speak out. We need to show other people how things are done, what we've gone through. And that's why I love uh season one. Uh getting to learn about other people's experiences. People go through a lot. And you you never know what somebody has gone through. You just see them, you said you just see the final product. But people have gone through a lot. So I was very, very inspired. I was very um let me say I was very eager to participate in this uh in this episode. And so let's let's see how it goes. Uh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So based on that, which story from season one stuck with you the most?

SPEAKER_05 2:45

Can I mention names?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Yes, sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:47

Yeah, Kabisa. Let me say I was uh inspired by Charles Chetty, somebody who I've known since I got into the industry, somebody who's been my mentor, still is my mentor. We've partnered in so many, so many jobs, even after I left employment. And uh I I I didn't know, but we have so much in common, me and him.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:04

Through the the the his journey and my journey and uh his inspirations, uh my inspiration. And um I'm um I was very much inspired because this is something I I noticed. Uh it was just a background observation when it comes to people from University of Nairobi. They are very much uh in tune with collaboration amongst themselves. And uh I also go uh went through uh Levi Morgan of uh Limorgan Interiors. I watched the episode uh by Nelson. And so those are the faces I know from long time ago. From when I when I was in campus, I I used to see Nelson a lot. When I got into the industry, I found out about Charles, and then Charles I I met uh Limorgan. And that's just been the process. So I was inspired, I had uh little snippets of inspiration from each one of them. But I guess the one that hit me the most was Charles.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Yeah. Just because of the journeys being very similar.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

It's very similar. And uh, like I've said, you do not know somebody based on the final product, just know them by the journey they've gone through.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah, yeah. Ah, yeah. And what um what do you think surprised you the most from the journeys of let's say as a collective of season one classroom versus experience, what was surprising?

SPEAKER_05 4:24

Uh classroom versus experience. I think um mine also falls. I've also watched mine, and let me just just say watching yourself is weird. And like, oh, uh, but just get used to it. But um, to answer that question, I think the most striking thing was that people's stories are very diverse. The diversity in where people have come from. We come from very diverse backgrounds and we go through a lot of things to get to where we are. So the fact that people just keep going through the hardships, through the processes, and we have this mentality that success is at the end of it. Success is in between. Success is part of the journey. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. Sometimes you get clients, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you you have good days, you have bad days. Sometimes you have money, sometimes you don't. You get and the more we we talk about things, the more we share our stories, the more other people get inspired. Because when you do not speak up, when you don't share your story, you might think you're going through something alone. But you do not know how many people have gone through that thing before you. You don't know how you don't know how many people have solutions to whatever it is you're going through. It might seem a mountain, but to some somebody else, they have a ready, ready-made solution.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah. Wow. And do you think that season connected you to other designers that you didn't know? Leave the ones that you know?

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're very, very much the ones that you didn't know. Because for me, I was I was a bit biased. I haven't watched all of them, maybe honest. But I was a bit biased. I went to the guys I knew. Okay. You get? Which is okay. Which is okay, right? I still have time to go through all of them. Um I think I'm going to watch one today. I'm I'm not gonna do anything after this. So, yes, I've I've I've noticed a few people. I was going through their social medias, and I can say, wow, guys are doing great stuff out there. Guys are really representing the industry, guys are playing a role in uh pushing this wheel forward. And I think each one, each one of us has a part to play in the building blocks of who we are as interior designers. If we are going to call ourselves professionals, we need to act and work as professionals. So it's it's it's a very, very huge resource center when it comes to knowing the industry players, knowing who to go to for what for one or two things, and eventually knowing how to who to collaborate with.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Who social media, just as you mentioned, did you go through and you're like, hey, okay, this was striking and no unrelated.

SPEAKER_05 6:49

There was a lady I can't remember her name. I think we'll I'll go through my phone and then you can tag her after this. But she does luxury interiors, high-end luxury, luxury interiors. And I looked at her catalog and was like, wow. So yeah, it's it's it's a very nice resource center for knowing who is in the industry. Because um I can say I I'm not sure if we can say the the industry is young, the industry is but it's growing. That's the good thing. And uh knowing each other is very, very important in the journey of of uh every one of us.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah. Hi, yeah. Last but not least, tell someone who hasn't watched season one, classroom versus experience, why they should go back and watch, despite us shooting a new season of Money. Why should they go back and watch that series?

SPEAKER_05 7:37

The same reason I would go back to watch the series. I'm go I'm I I want to promise myself I'm going to watch each and every one of them and uh possibly take notes where I can. But it's a very, very nice way of knowing how the industry works, the people who are in the industry, and how you can fit into the industry. The diversity when it comes to how the industry operates, the industry players, how to collaborate with contractors, how how to acquire uh clients, the challenges that you face and how you can overcome them. So it's I can say it's uh the fact that you started this thing. I think I I I share that with you on the on the on the last episode. The fact that you've started this as a foundation for for designers is a very, very nice resource for the people coming after us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Actually, speaking of going, watching and taking notes, guys, don't watch the episodes as though you're watching a CDC movie. You get you need to be taking something and learning. Otherwise, it's just like, you know, just passive. You don't do anything about what you've learned. You just be like, oh, okay, Albert, okay, there's nothing tangible you're getting out of it. And to help with that, to help with that, we have just created a new notebook that has specific prompts of when you watch the episodes, what you take away, what you need to implement, what you what you um see yourself in that story, yeah, depending on the season that you're on at that time. So for example, if right now I'm in the season of looking for work, you get what lesson have you taken from whatever episode that applies to that particular season of your life? You get? Because sometimes you may want to watch everything, and yes, it's nice if you watch all the episodes, but you I think it's more important to go to the people who you feel will be most inspirational to where you're at at that point.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

Where you're at that point, yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

You get because I usually say there's all kinds of ages of the guests who are there, different kinds of experiences, and sometimes whatever you're telling me in terms of your success, I can't visualize it right now because I'm I can't relate because I'm too, should I say, too much of a rookie or have just started. Yes, yes. It's like me telling you, oh, by the way, my goal is to do 200M by December after everything has been take home. Cindy, you'll listen to my story and it feels like a story. It doesn't feel like, oh, what can I learn from Abigail? You get, but you'll go watch someone else's episode, and you're like, okay, at this moment of my life, I can relate to this and I'll learn this and I'll take this away. You get yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:05

Speaking of 200m, I remember there was a time uh I had a conversation with Charles and he was telling me his previous employer, I can't remember which year it was, I think it was 2016 to 2017. I was very new to the industry. And he was telling me his previous employer at one of those years had done a turnover of 200M. I mean he's like, Wow. Nashtuga. But a guy is looking at 200M. So when you're tummy sema, I can right now I can relate to 200M.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

But at that point you could not.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

At that point, I could not. You get I probably I couldn't even relate to an M. It was that was a fact, which is a fact. Yeah, which is a fact. Which is right now, it's a it's a it's it's a possibility. Right now I can relate to a to to to an M, maybe even two M. But hey, at that time listening to people turning over 200M. It's like, ooh, ooh, okay. So yes, Venezuela, it's very, very important for people to know what to pick for whatever stage they are in in their design career. When you're when you're an intern, what do you need to learn? When you're trying to start out your own thing, what do you need to learn? When you're five years into your own thing, what do you need to learn? You see, all these stages have different lessons, and all those lessons are important. And as much as you're going to watch each and every episode three to five times, there's there are things that you're still going to learn by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

The hard way sometimes. And that is something you need to brace yourself for.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

And also there are things which won't click even after episode five because you watched it at that point you are not ready to receive that information. Exactly. Exactly. Then you come back a few years later, you're like, oh, it's like, for example, an intern right now watches the episode where we're talking about billing and clients and um contracts, and they're like, I don't even have a client.

SPEAKER_05 11:51

You episode me and you get you're an intern, two job in me if you got. You don't know what this person went through, how meetings they had to go for, do your job if you keep up. But after some time, you get to learn. Right now, I know the hardship of actually scoring a client. Yeah. I mean, a job commerce, I mean we are doing this job. You don't know how many other clients have said no. So every stage has its own lessons, and every every season has its own lessons as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah. So just because of that, go on to the comment section. I'm going to tag a link where you can pre-order our notebook, and I'm also going to show you how to use it. So until then, let's move on now into the money conversation. Hiya. Do you remember when you made your first million?

SPEAKER_05 12:44

I have not made my first million. Okay. But I've um I've done a pretty good six-figure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 12:51

I'm heading to the million. Okay. Soon.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 12:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

And do you remember what your first paid design project was?

SPEAKER_05 13:00

It was a residential, I remember very well. I think it was the first, yeah. The first job was a residential in Parklands. Uh, let me not say the apartment, but it was in Parklands. It was uh a newly bought apartment.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

You were doing one one unit.

SPEAKER_05 13:16

Just one unit. But it uh it wasn't like a complete backer kitchen and and everything. The kitchen was already fitted. The only thing he had to buy were the equipment and everything. But I he wanted to rev to to to spice up his living room and um his bedroom and dining area. He was a new he was uh soon to be married, but right now I think he's already married. Uh I didn't follow up after that. So uh he was a new newly married soon to be married, and he had good money and it paid well. It paid very well. It was a very inspirational project.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So how much was it?

SPEAKER_05 13:53

It was um the total project. The total project, design and build was uh 700k.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Okay, yeah. So this was living room, you said they wanted to do the living room to spice up the living room?

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah, living room. So it was ceiling, wall unit, and he had a very big TV.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, all batches have a big TV.

SPEAKER_05 14:13

Actually, I convinced him to reduce the size because he wanted to go for a 120. Wow. Just take a hundred. Yeah, but uh the living.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Because of the space, I make sense.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

I make sense because it was uh it was uh an open area divided into the uh what do you call dining area and then now living room. Now, if you split part of part of it into maybe half, you find the the the ratio from where you're sitting to the TV. Doesn't make sense to have 120 inch. But yeah, I mean he liked it.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

And that's something important for people to know. You just don't choose a TV because it looks nice and it will look whatever these calculations and this math behind it. So hire an inter designer.

SPEAKER_05 14:51

Funny story, uh reminds me back in campus. We were living in a hostel and then there was uh the next door neighbor. It was a Lou. But these guys had a hundred inch bana.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

In the hostel. In the hostel hostel in that for context, anyone who's not going to Kampo, hostel in atoshana from here up to there. No, actually.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

So it's like this partition, bed, and this is the length. Now they had put the TV on this wall. You can imagine. So the TV is so close to your face, you can't even look at the whole thing at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

You have to look like this and move. You move with the movement.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

Yeah, you move with the movement. But they put it there specifically for PS. Bachelor's, my guy. Yeah. Wow. But that was uh that was the story of my first job. So uh it was what? It was a ceiling design, a wall unit, and then the bedroom design. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Do you remember for context how much you took away as you as leave alone could buy material? Because this was designed and built. Yes. You may not remember the figure, maybe the percent.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Um it uh my my target is usually 30 to 35 percent. Okay. Since then, ever since I started uh quoting for my own jobs. My figure is always because there's always going to be some unexpected uh expenses. So I usually cushion myself with five percent on top. So I think I went a little bit overboard, but I took home 20 26. I remember 26, 25 percent up. It's not a bad day. It was it was a pretty good day, especially for somebody starting up.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

How long did it take that project?

SPEAKER_05 16:25

It took about two and a half weeks.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Okay, yeah. Sour. So project worth 750k give or take for two and a half weeks. Now Uli Malizana kuna could rude this joining. No, no, no, no. That was plus design, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

So for context, so do the math on the back side of the camera. Hiya. Do you remember when was the first time, or first of all, have you ever turned down work? Yes. Okay, do you remember the first time you ever turned down work and what the reason was?

SPEAKER_05 16:54

There's a backstory toward to it, which involves uh a mistake I made on a previous project. Okay, but the issue of turning down work was because this client kept on trying to push down the the cost. And I've been a victim, me being the perpetrator of underquoting for a project. There is nothing as worse as Kazijaisha. Now, Uliambia client is a site to me as a kazi bizuri, but you may realize wow, we underquoted. You get so yes, I've had down to I've had to turn down a couple of jobs.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

One that is you're turning down mid-project or rather project.

SPEAKER_05 17:37

No, at the beginning. Okay. At the beginning. You see, after some time, you get to you develop an analytical uh aspect of your of your of your thinking. Utangale jobai. Based on how one, how the client behaves, their attitude, their uh their uh their their mood when it comes to money. Utajuwa too up.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

So for this first one that you turn down, ebunni pe specifics, ilika attitude, ilikua moodamili kwa nini.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

So this is what happened. I always quote, and I always quote according to how I'm going to compensate myself and how the project is going to cost. Get. So niki patia clan uh quotation, and then he keeps on pushing an attacker 15% uh what do you call it? Discount. Yeah. 15% discount, but now what am I going to take home? Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

More or less for free. Juja overquote anyway. You only put the 5% buffer, which everyone needs.

SPEAKER_05 18:38

Everyone needs. Everyone needs. But make a three percent. I remember very well. So Taru Kochini. So it was a very tight, very, very tight uh project. If I get 20%, I'll be able to do it. Because you see, you're new and you're not in a position to choose. But as at that point, I put I put my myself in a position to say no, I cannot do this. Because if I proceed with this thing, I'll waste your time and I'll waste your money and I'll uh I'll be crucifying my reputation. We get Sonya niage. This is my figure, this is what I will work with. You can go to somebody else, you can get a bigger quotation. You can go to somebody else, maybe they have a way their design might cost less. But for this design, this is what you're going to work. Let me know how you think what you think. And the guy goes to Sonika Sema, you know what? That was it.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, you don't have to take everything. And guys, you don't have to take everything.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

Yeah. So I think down the line, Kunayoswali, but let me give you a story of how I underquoted a job. Job number one, I mean Kuja, I mean Shapo. Job number two was a was uh a commercial space in Rongay. Now here I am, my partner jobing in a poison. But it's been a it's been a pretty long uh time span between the first and the second job that I'm afraid Niki Kosa job, I don't know how long it is going to be until I get another job. So, Mimi, what do I do? In my in my in my desperation and fear, I underquote. So I underquoted for the job. And then another thing I think people need to learn when you're starting out, make your designs as simple and as practical as possible. Don't go experimenting with things on interest. I did that, I messed up. So if you're going to do, if you're going to start out, make it it's I think it's more important to be functional and uh easily to work with, easy to work with, can I say that? Than to do something magnificent amount of it to my honor. And then you're going to apply that, and then you're trying to to experiment with people's money and people's people's time. My mistake. So I I came up with a very complex design. It was a pharmacy. And then I undercoated two mistakes at the same time. So many member sites in Zajo, Missouri. The first time you realize ni undercoat niokati, uh, what do you call these guys? Electrician. Kangaliya heavy material na kanale heavy canal me quoting realize apakunashida. That was the first time really nili realized apakunashida. Down the line after one weekend's a kumana. So here I am trying to push the project because one thing I didn't realize I didn't know, I came to to to know through that project, is that pharmacies have uh they have this regulatory body that if you start a pharmacy, they have to come and inspect and make sure that it meets a certain certain criteria. So you if you're going to have an office, you've got if you're going to be vending uh medicine, there are certain checks and balances they have to put in place. So for you to get to for them to come and inspect your space, you need to have completed the space. You get. So Apart from kuana pressure your client, because for you to book them, you have to go pay.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

You yourself you're paying. And they can't pay before you finish.

SPEAKER_05 22:11

So I'm a book the first week of next month, Sindio. Now I'm a book, I'm a lipa. So wanakuja nas jamaliza. You get. So again, na wambia sasa, give me another week. Tina ananda na lipa nyingine. You get. Yuga. So it became very, very hectic. But the saving grace for me, I think, was I got another job naika lipa. So I had to take money from that job. But by then, I think nikwanimapija. But I was able to complete it. Even though it was.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

So you are paying from this other project. You're paying for what? You're paying for your labor, your people, or you're paying for materials.

SPEAKER_05 22:57

Paying just to finish this job. What? What part? Any part. Border to you can't see issue.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So meaning umek u metu a comfortable client.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Just because you're undercoated now, is it to do why why couldn't you go back and ask? Okay, I know reputation-wise, I kwanki featured a client, but there are situations you can't yeah, this one you could have navigated.

SPEAKER_05 23:19

So I ought to just to eat the loss because money comes and goes. Money comes and money will always come and go. So I had to go into my pocket, ni chimbeango, ni li pe kitu ishe, ni token. I just wanted to leave that place. But sikuan ataka kuhepa job. As in it's my mistake. I'm going to carry this thing to the very end. You get so ni.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Wait, for context, did you have how long of a project?

SPEAKER_05 23:42

It lasted, I think, a month.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

But that last week was the hardest I think I've I've gone through in my career. So nikamaliza, but we didn't finish in good terms. That's why. Even despite he was, let me say he was a very graceful person, nonetheless. Tulli Maliza too, but you could feel there's a ka there's a tension up heavy. Because of what?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Because of you, Ku Shinda ku extend, extend. Yes, yes. Was there any other reason if you think for context's sake?

SPEAKER_05 24:12

No, no, no. For the fact that the the extension, the co constant extension, and the fact that Nili Mumbambia to eventually niage, I underquoted and sickwanataka additional money.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

What was his reaction? Or was it a her? It was a him.

SPEAKER_05 24:28

It was a it was a him. What was his reaction? I think he he just vented because Nili Mambia via phone. He just vented nini nini and then he hung up. And then Keshua kinun ikapata, nikapata the additional money. Nikenda Nika Maliza.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Oh Ali kwangesia nonetheless. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

Nilitoko Kwungin. Yeah, akwa akwangese kitiote.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Oh, okay. Yeah. Ili kujipange.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Wajipange.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

So even after you venting niniakuna, it's okay. But how much to Malize? No. Ili kwa wejipange.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

No, no, no. So squujetana ku niambi three bob. But I've never been in that situation. Since that time, I've never been in a situation where you have to go back to the client for money. So I don't know how that operates. I think uh the people who go through this the most are people who are involved in construction.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

So you know, design you can do design and then furnishing. So, for example, consultants, let's say design, you won a fanya the build, but now on the furnishing side, neza kwa mindu nam side ya ku procure, for example, to say me easy pillows.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

You get? Then we have to let me give a practical example. So there's a client I was doing for this year, a very good client of mine, very understanding, very gracious actually. Now we had to do a custom seat. And I always am so, sorry guys, but I'll just say it, I'm so anti Vitizakutengewa. Even if you're what kind of craftsman, um, usually I'm like the headache that you go through is just not worth the hassle. Yeah. So I typically prefer to have them ready. And if I do have the custom ones, the ones I'm comfortable with are the ones when I do when I'm in China, for example. Okay. Because that process is a bit different. Let me start with the China one. Because, for example, you give whatever you need, ETCTC. They start making for you samples, then you go and see. You get your approval or disapprove. But no nah for nigina kuna yo, ni le kuvurutana ni story, story. Uko no, it's more like you're dealing with a factory. It's like you will cut travel, book your flight, travel on this day, we'll pick you, we'll go see. It's okay, whatever you need to change, write it properly, we change. But no now in it's it's like stories. There's nothing professional about it. It's like a panuna ja madam, sasa ni ni. It's not like me just want the sofa. Ilinish as in just tell me, okay, I have this problem. Siku Maliza, he even I even don't tarekebisha. Things happen, you get so I find it difficult this way because typically I'm not very gracious, me as a person. Like, I don't like isostories. Like, no, especially simple. Yeah, just simple. I need three more days. Simple. Yes. Do you need to avoid my calls? Do you need to do what? Tell me mechanica. You know, you don't need to tell me all those. You just tell me, by the way, a B C D happens, I need 10 more days. Will I kill you? It's not ready, it's not ready. It's not ready. You get yeah, so I usually avoid so this particular, and we are like, let's try. Told him, hey, by the way, see, but whatever. We went around, I think it was too crazy, expensive. By this of us, we're seeing expensive. Why? Come on, a meter nah. What? Nairobi. Ready-made. You're talking about like a nine seater plus maybe you you know, an Ottoman.

SPEAKER_05 27:42

Maybe uh a sauce.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Let me name, for example, Furniture Palace. There's no place you'll get a nine seater in Furniture Palace for less than a meter.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

You get, or there about. And the other thing they're doing currently, see what you may be chanasema took. Just go and check. The other thing Furniture Palace is currently doing is they tell you, so for example, if you spend a meter, we'll give you 50% off. You see, so they are forcing you to must spend the meter. So you'll buy, for example, the sofa and something else, whatever, but have still spent the meter.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

You get kit. So we look, look, look, the specific places that he was comfortable with news or marrangers. You get. And I was like, hey, okay, there's I can check for you one or two places that make really good ones that you wouldn't really be able to tell. Zimeten is wa uh custom. Sindio. Yeah. Maybe a third of the price or something. Hey, worst mistake of my life. I'd rather even I'd rather order from abroad Malini mezone. Yeah. You get. I'd rather order abroad ni major system ni me yelewa. Watch an i kwambia. Do metengeza after some time. Um like, okay, timelines, ni nini as we are paying. In fact, they're telling us we want you to pa polipole method, or do you want to pay all? The girl was like, We they miss in a raka na eki to. Mina Itaka in like four months around. Sindel, to kamahiy.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Ni me, I'm changing parts of the story kidogoff so that I shield the client a little. Sindel.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

So at the end of it all, he comes, um, time. Wanakuja na niambia, uh, time na follow-up. Like, hey, by the way, kiki to mefika. Oh, na juwa siling yangwilianguka. Like things I don't, whatever. Eventually, when it came, so to me some bana ceilings, I'm like, okay, it's okay, things can happen. How much time do you want? Oh, na juwa ni nino na to mea videos. Okay, I'm sorry. I empathize with you. Things can have happened, but just tell me, Abigail, I need 20 more days. I had a mishap. Allow me to do this, Nijipange. Full stop. Like, I you don't need to lie to me, by the way. And you don't need to give me stories, even if it's the truth. There are things where I'm like, okay, after all this is said and done, I'm sorry, but when do I get it? Because I still need to report back to the client and say there was a mishap, but you'll get it next month. Full stop. So just give me a date. Oh, naju, I need to check with Ju. Who wanted? Story, story. Anyway, two months later, bado tu nafanya, kuvorugana English polepole going off. What what what? This is a shop that has a proper showroom in Lovington, guys. I'm not talking about Mgongroad. Yeah? Lovington. Kufika. Kitu Mekuja, Suju Kushons Akuna, Zingina menyake hazifanani, and then they're like, oh, by the way, read the fine print. Um, the cushions are complimentary. So if you don't like them, you can leave them or you can take anything else that's there. So in this circumstance, I told the client, there's no way, because he ya ikwa kiti akalkwa nye mamayake. You know, I told him there's no way you're buying a sofa without cushions. Yes, you can do it. You getutu mesel kwa client ni iki wan ezo vi to zotos. So I told him, you know what? I know this is what we had agreed. This was our plan. I recommended this place, place because we had gone around N A B C D. But are you able to add me a small budget? But to zori no na see a t mindo analipa direct. Si alkowa lipa supplier direct. So I'm like, are you okay with me going to look for you cushions that I usually get in such a church? Please to Maliza niapa juhu, you have to tamalizan ako na story mingi. Akanibe, by the way, mtavuru gana sana, it's okay. How much do you need? Just go. In fact, you told me, make the call. Don't even send me photos, don't ask me anything. Choose, send me an invoice, I'll pay. I whether you want 20 cushions, you went 10, you want whatever design you want. You see, so I had to go back and I asked.

SPEAKER_05 31:29

But as much as this, you he you are you're not the one dealing with the money. I'm not the one dealing with the money. It was somebody who had recommended.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yes, it's someone I'd recommended. You get yeah. So it's also sons of like now, but you see, it's also sons of, I think sometimes you just have to be honest with your client. Mwambi by the this is the situation, this is the status. I sent him even videos. Okay, this is the circumstance. And the lia hina hiatamin pachavituzaki na na nyambia according to the contract, or other fine printer make that they are complimentary. So the alafam changes hindu to me agree colours. I may change at us if ananina kiti. You get? So I'm like, I ate kawapi, has ingiani nayo kiti na nyumbayaka.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

That is a bad situation to be in, man.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Very bad, you know. So I still had to ask, and he was like, you know what, let's sort it out. It's fine. Make the call, send me an invoice, malizan naapotusonge. You get?

SPEAKER_05 32:19

I had the same situation, but this this time it was uh a client what wanted uh, what do you call this? A console, a consult table. It was just one of those black granite shop under decorative uh footings. So the consult table and then atwa kapojo. And sasa mimi ni ka anda made me a big mistake. So ukenda jiji na pata, ikitu inakapo san. Una contactum se wuna wambia niaje. Can I get this? Yeah, you can get this. I don't have anything against shopping on Jiji, but trust me, if you are listening, after me lipia. Go see the thing that wambia ni table sawa. And I mean sasawa and how much?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Sindona sama watwa jiji, most of them are also brokers. So they also don't have the product with them.

SPEAKER_05 33:11

The guy was also a broker. Yes, if you have a mm-hmm. So, I mean to ni mona product in you. How much for this? Yeah, it's this amount. Sasawa. Nalipawa, nani kaf lip a full amount. And it was cheap. 21, 21k for a consultable is. So, hey, na mambia in dipataskugani after two days. Ah, Sonicamunza, it's not ready. Yeah, Pana to na to fabricate like you need a doka ywevo. Shock on me. But it was just a bad uh similar bad experience. But I've noticed that so much. And I would like to ask, is it a culture among us? Like guys who deliver do not deliver. Guys who are meant to deliver do not deliver. Yeah. Because your story of furniture, especially, you a kitanda, you a sofa seti wanini. I've heard it from very many people.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

You would rather even China. Money is you're not in the same country. You show them, you see samples. Sometimes you may not be able to travel, but ille send me a video, send me those. I still feel like you need to see in person, but ille circumstances, I wish you have someone on the other end, Akuche, because then they work like a factory. Who could fund this work like illegal? I can tell you anything Bora I get out of the situation. You get.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

But Sasa When you're too mesema, I would rather you go to that high-end store. I don't know if I can mention names, Swanicha Palace or Antac or Victoria, and get the final product. It's such a headache.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Let me ask on pricing. What policy do you think you wish you had set from day one?

SPEAKER_05 34:42

The ability to say no.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

To what? Oh, about prices. Yes. Like a panahiya makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. Okay. This one.

SPEAKER_05 34:53

That would have saved me a lot of headache. The ability. It's something I've had to learn along the way. But the ability to just say, hey, niya jia PV, I cannot. I can refer you to somebody who can. But later on, yeah. Later on, if you have a better budget, remember me.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Ah, yeah. What is your go-to line to defend your rates? Dako defend rates, Zako. So for example, you can do it. Let's say 350k.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

Yeah, yeah. Uh, truth be told, Mimi, I don't have any special pickup lines. Just go through the straight to the point. These are the best market rates for what I'm offering. And I know what I'm offering is good quality. I might so not not be the best, but I know I'm good. And so far, my track records, I can give you my contacts who always ask them about Albert. He will tell you, this guy, he does a good job. He's dedicated on site until he delivers. That's all I can give. But any special pickup lines or nini ni ni, kunanga.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Do you feel like you undervalue your skills? This one you mentioned, I think, because of imposter syndrome. This one, the other one you mentioned was not imposter syndrome. That one was like Natakatukazi.

SPEAKER_05 36:05

I think it was fear and disparation at the same time. That one.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

But it wasn't imposter. Have you ever undervalued your skin?

SPEAKER_05 36:11

Give me an example of imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

You feel like, for example, Abigail Amakwambiange studio. And then you're like, eh, but I can't charge like Stephanie because Stephanie needs the big one of the big guns. You get this. But me, me says it beyond the prices kaizo. Have you ever charged undervalued yourself?

SPEAKER_05 36:33

No, I don't think I have. Oh, you just give your thing the way you have to. This is what this is what I have. Say, okay, see, sit and partial details at this my 5% cushion of manina. But in the back of my mind, upper IV, I'm looking at 30%. Your 5% ni cushion, just in case when the Palivo industry area upanteviti overnight.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

You get. So you have to consider those. Because I've come across such a situation. Like truly quotient paint job. And it was a huge paint. It was like this floor. One, two, three, three times. We quoted for the job paint works. And then the client sat on the quotation. Aka kuja after how many months? After about three, four months.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Oh. And by that time, how quotient valid for a certain period? No. At that time.

SPEAKER_05 37:22

So what I could next week.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

No, when they came back, we need to revise it.

SPEAKER_05 37:26

We we did that. Oh we did that because I was part actually. I was partnering with somebody else with uh with a with a former colleague from campus. So what happened was there was uh there was an amendment that was made that hiked up the prices of imports, including paint. So whatever we had quoted was null and void. Since uh it was that time now it was the it's this time, we have to go back to the table and discuss afresh. So we up on I started learning you need to you need to put your foot down in certain situations. Yeah, just don't do things to impress people because at the end of the day, in this journey you're on your own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Hiya. Just on the same thing about clients. Have you ever been um in a situation where you're legally chasing a client?

SPEAKER_05 38:21

No, not yet.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Are you looking forward to it?

SPEAKER_05 38:25

I'm not chasing it. I'm not saying I can't say I'm looking forward to it, but najo it.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Do you think you will?

SPEAKER_05 38:30

Uh, one day I will.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Yes, I know I will. Right now, I'm talking my my next uh probably by the end of the year, maybe next year, I'm targeting the millions. I've I've done six figures, I'm happy with myself up to now, but I'm I'm targeting bigger, bigger jobs. So I'm going to get there. So first is I've not been in a in a situation where I'm chasing clients for the final payment or money, or this and that, but I know you think it's it's worth it, the legal chase. Depends on a lot of things. Like but if the industry is too small and you people know each other, people may start speaking. I mean, somebody told me that once. Yeah, so if you're afraid of being labeled as uh a litigious person, then you have to go to away. Is it is it really worth it? Is say chasing that final.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, yeah. On that one first, know that you're not afraid of being labeled. Do you know, do you have something that's uh uh telltale sign that okay, only red flag?

SPEAKER_05 39:43

Let me say this after interacting with uh people, specifically clients, after for for a couple of years, you learn to read some things, some, some, some cues, body language, facial expressions. Rajotu, you a pa kunakito. Ama this one is just he has a roster of uh possible designers. He's just you're just one of them. He's not dedicated to your work. I'm a okay, he's not yet dedicated to your work, and probably he's sampling to see who is the best. But I can say the first telltale sign is uh a client asks when a client asks for multiple meetings. I mean partia proposal, quit a meeting. I'm a quita meeting. That's not a serious person. At some point, you st you need to start invoicing for those meetings because that's your time. Another hour, or what I mean, what is your rate per hour? Is it 5,000, 10,000? Yeah, start charging that person because within a month we can put your five, six hours of your time. It costs something, you would have dedicated that time to somebody else who would have paid to get. So somebody who asks for uh multiple meetings, that's a red flag. Somebody who intensely uh negotiates for a discount, because uh personally, how I quote for my jobs, I don't allow for, I don't give myself that that kind of markup like 40%. No. 30 to 35 percent. Keep at a 13 because I keep at a twenty at a twenty-night at a twenty. I'll be very okay. That's when I know I'm I'm messing with it.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

There's a problem.

SPEAKER_05 41:22

There's a problem somewhere. You need to go to to to revise that other to review after your project image. Go sit down, review everything. What went wrong? Is it the transactions that were too many? I'm only supplier and if somebody somebody overcharged you. You get but that is the second sign. Somebody who over negotiates, who who's overbaining, that's another red flag. I think I have a couple of other red flags, but you can book after when I don't need to remember them.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

So actually, you've said something that maybe I need to highlight to other guests or viewers watching. You need to account for your projects after, after every project. You need to be able to see is this project profitable for you or not? How much did you spend? How much man hour? How many meetings were you moving around? You get, and then you see, did I make money or not? Otherwise, utafanyakazu, nafanyakazu, nafanyakazi, and then the end of the year, like, hey, okay, what do you really have to show for this? You get. And then sometimes juicing overlap, una tube projecting, and then you actually feel like you have money and you really don't have.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

And I think what has helped me over the years is uh note everything down, including MPSA transactions. Because kunakwangan transaction fee. And transaction fee might 20 bob might seem small. But if you do a hundred of those, zoning up, that's two thousand bob that you cannot account for.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:39

So you need to note everything down. That at this time, nilifanya here, this time nilifanya here, this time nilifanya here. If something does not have a receipt, and it could cash, transaction fee. I mean, come on yi border, you you took a bike instead of traffic and lichukua border, you can lipa this amount, this was a transaction fee. Nilifanya heavy, this was the transaction fee. Everything has to be accounted for. At the end of the day, if you have an imbalance, because uh both sides have to balance expenditure and money in and money out of have to balance. So at the end of the day, if you see a huge margin within your balances and it's repeating on every project, no, there's some there's something wrong you're not doing. Something is that you're not you're doing wrong.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Take that from Albert, please. Go back to this section, repeat, repeat, repeat. Most replayed section needs to be here. Let me ask what deposit do you require upfront for you and what does it usually cover? What initial costs does it cover for you?

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Uh my deposit, my terms are usually if it's if the project is under 100k, just do 100% deposit. 50k, 70k, 80k, 99k, just do 100% deposit.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

99?

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Yeah. Uh-huh. If it's more? If it's more, so anything from 101, I require between San Angalia, between I'll I'll look at the initial expenses between 60 to 70. I'll just evaluate in a way within this week you're going to. But anything like 120K, that's not something that's going to last more than a week. So if it's something that I can manage, I'll require maybe a 70% deposit. If it's something big, I'll require maybe 60%.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

This is a design and build.

SPEAKER_05 44:23

Design and build.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

You do ever do consultancy only?

SPEAKER_05 44:26

Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

For consultancy, do you charge the same? Yes, I do. Deposit 60%.

SPEAKER_05 44:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

So in consultancy, the few that I've I've I've known, that uh that I've encountered rather, was when the client had their own contract. So they just they just want the design. Say, hey, I uh do me a design for this space. Like you did uh residential in Migori. So I did the design, everything, quoted for for just the design consulting, and then I sent. And he did a very good job.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

And this you so for that you asked for 60%. Yes. They don't push back like hey, 60%? No, no, no. Okay. Higher. Following up on late payments, what's your structure strategy? How do you follow up for late payments?

SPEAKER_05 45:09

Sumbua.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Uh emails.

SPEAKER_05 45:12

WhatsApp? No, just text that person. Just remind them. So usually when the project ends and the client is happy, I send the final the final uh what do you call it? The final invoice. Right. And here is how I structure my payment 60% or 70% at the beginning of the project, right? Then you have 30 to 20% at 50% of the of the job. Then the final payment is probably 10% on the higher side, maybe 5%. So usually the ones I've worked with is 10% is what is remaining, right? So if the project is worth maybe 700k, like my first job, and uh the client has 75k remaining, that one you can you can you you can push for the final payment. But so far, I think have I had an issue with final payment? One, two, two, two times. But so far, things have been good because most of my clients, like I told you last time, have been referrals to people have done some work with. Yeah, so there are people who know people I know.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Hey, people who know people you know on that one. Do you have payment terms? Oh, anyway, this one you've mentioned that make it flow. So you've said like 60% or 70% and then 30%, or 60%, then 20, and then five mushrook.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

The bigger the project, the smaller the initial payment. If it's a huge project, maybe 60% will work. If it's a small project, 70% will work. Yeah. You just have to an to to to assess what will be a good starting point. Is it 70%? Is it 60?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Yeah. Now onto the rapid fire questions. Are you ready? So rapid fire couldn't explanations. Okay. Yeah, answers two puts. Okay. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_05 47:05

Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Okay, so what was your biggest expense when starting your idea career, switching to freelance or leaving a job to build your business?

SPEAKER_05 47:13

Buying my first laptop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Do you remember how much?

SPEAKER_05 47:16

It was about 65k.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Okay. Yeah. No, me took a for context, you started it just after you left school or you were still in school?

SPEAKER_05 47:26

No, that was uh when I started.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

So you finished school? Am I used when you're hustling in school?

SPEAKER_05 47:32

No, no, not in school. In school, I had a laptop. Okay. And then even after school, I had the same laptop. Okay. But now when I started my own practice, my own independent consulting and whatnot, is when I decided I need to upgrade this thing because this thing is not working. Okay. And it's you all you also need to have a bit of presentation when you're going to meet a client. You get?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

What is or was your biggest look professional expense?

SPEAKER_05 47:58

I think my wardrobe.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

I upgraded my wardrobe to a good extent. To an extent that normally for a young man, you do not do this. You do not go this this much.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Like what? Just briefly.

SPEAKER_05 48:09

A couple of uh blazers, you know, shirts, okay, shoes and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

A normal young man and a fanangan?

SPEAKER_05 48:16

We buy things when you need them. Okay. Not because we we like them.

unknown 48:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Do you give discounts?

SPEAKER_05 48:22

Ask anyone, ask even ask anyone, ask any any man. If you leave a man to his own devices, man can sleep on the floor and be very, very happy.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Do you give discounts to friends or family?

SPEAKER_05 48:34

Uh no. You don't? I don't.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah. Which platform drives the most leads for you?

SPEAKER_05 48:40

In terms of uh social media and whatnot?

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Any, whether it's social media, website, what platform in a coleteanga clients? What's the referral's platform?

SPEAKER_05 48:48

I think I was going to say that. So far, it's been word of mouth.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Okay, so you're not really relying on platforms.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

That's that is going to be my next frontier, like investing more on uh maybe a website, investing more on social media. Because I've tried that on my back end, uh, being a social media manager, it's very, very hectic. So I need a dedicated person for that.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 49:07

Because it's very hard being the manager, being the accountant, being the social media manager. You need to break things away from some things. Like the the same way I broke off from doing 3D impressions. Like me when you put upon the kilanda, never. So I just uh get somebody, even if it's if it's a temporary person, do that. I'll go do something else. So I need to, I think that is that is something I need to look for forward to in the next one or two years.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Do you think it's worth it?

SPEAKER_05 49:32

Yes, I think it's worth it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Because if you already get a lot of cleanse from from referrals.

SPEAKER_05 49:37

From referrals. I can say referrals have been my quote unquote my mother and my father when it comes to doing this in the in this industry. So at some point you need to leave your mother's house, right? You need to get go out there and see how the world looks like. So cold approaching will be my next my next target. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Hiya. What corporate pack do you miss the most? Okay. Did you have packs first of all?

SPEAKER_05 50:03

Like uh what? Like having leave days and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Whatever you define pack is.

SPEAKER_05 50:08

I think for me, pack was the comfort zone of unakuja mandu napatakuna job. Okay. But how do you have this job? The job was gotten. Don't know how what this person went through just to secure that job. Don't know how many meetings he was, how many times he was uh he was uh put off, um how many times he was dismissed to get that job. But when you step into that zone is when you understand. You get to understand a lot of things, a lot of things that you take for granted, like getting into an office and you have Wi-Fi. Yeah. That you don't need to pay for.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

That you don't need to pay for then you want to stream.

SPEAKER_05 50:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Where did your first solo client come from?

SPEAKER_05 50:48

Funny enough, it was Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Really?

SPEAKER_05 50:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Oh, hi yeah. How many months until you broke even?

SPEAKER_05 50:55

The first two months.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

You broke even?

SPEAKER_05 50:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

My funny thing, my my my initial capital was very little.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 51:04

So the the only thing I needed was just this and to ensure the client paid.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Okay. You get so you are just recovering the money for the laptop?

SPEAKER_05 51:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Is there any other expense you are recovering?

SPEAKER_05 51:14

No.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Wow. So anyway, yeah. Meskiak, his first initial expense was yap, yup. No more.

SPEAKER_05 51:21

Just be good.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

How many retainer clients do you have?

SPEAKER_05 51:26

Uh, I can say 90%.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Oh, you do retainer clients like every month in the Kfanya kitutu, not pukuunja contract image.

SPEAKER_05 51:34

No, most of my clients, um, okay, look at the look at it this way and correct me if I'm wrong, but most of my clients have been returned. Like the month. That's not it. That's not it.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Retainer means I'm calling Albert, for example. We have this whole floor. We are the designers of it. But anytime we need any change or whatever, you're on standby, we pay you, let's say, how much can we say? One shilling every month for you to just be on standby. If you need any changes, you make the changes. If you need us to design this, you make the like we just move with you. But to Koshua, we don't need to start wandering around. Yes, you may have your original contract, yes, Nini, but after that, it's like, okay, we'll keep you on retainer just to be standby, is a harsh word to use, but you get it.

SPEAKER_05 52:16

So let me look at it this way. I have a client who we work with. Okay, I am registered as a supplier in their system. But now we do the same project on an annual basis. Okay. So what they do is they convert their office space into a form of a gallery. They have a CSR that helps promote local artists.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

You get. So I don't know if that serves as a Okay, it is.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Because by that one, are you paid every month?

SPEAKER_05 52:42

No, I'm paid. Consistently. I'm paid per project.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

No, so then it's not a retainer. So that's not a retail.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

So that is zero. So maybe I need to go look at my list of class regional in the retainer and an AC retainer.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Ah, yeah. What is your biggest surprise tax hit?

SPEAKER_05 52:59

First, I I would say biggest tax surprise hit. Tax surprise hit. To know that most people, and when I say most people, I mean myself, most people don't know much about taxation. And I realized that when I started actually uh paying, remitting my own taxes. Because during when I was in employment, there was a there was an accountant. So salon after me piguo tax. But when you start now remitting your own tax and you start employing uh uh what do you call those accountants, not a CPA. Is when you realize we this taxation needs to be in the curriculum. But I've had to push myself into actually knowing, or the very least, just know what goes on during taxation. Basics too. Yeah, basics too. You don't have to be a CPA, you don't have to be certified or anything, but at least one of your knowledge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Last but not least, what is your longest payment delay from a client?

SPEAKER_05 54:03

The same same guy. I think it was a couple of months, it went for about six months.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

But they still paid.

SPEAKER_05 54:09

They still paid. Okay. So far, I don't think I've had a client who has not paid. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But uh just to cut them, just to be uh to give them an excuse. Um they have not been what I would say big money.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 54:27

You get big money like uh uh the final invoice here one name. But to try to try not to you just roll with the punches. But so far, reminders and uh basic emails have worked very well.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Yeah, cool. Hi yeah, we are just wrapping up the the show. What what was your experience shooting this episode?

SPEAKER_05 54:53

This was a very, very interesting experience. Let me just say, first of all, you guys have a very nice studio, very, very nice. And uh it was it was a bit intimidating, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

What were me, yeah, too sad.

SPEAKER_05 55:07

Like hey, but it's it's been a very, very nice experience. And I think it's uh it's uh it's also a good approach because money is touchy, right? And uh it's something that most people need to learn more about. So if I could recommend anything, learn about. Uh be very, very strict, be very frugal, especially with business money. Be very frugal with your expenditures. Be very keen when you're noting down your expenses during a project, whether you're doing construction, whether you're doing you're doing design alone. Be very keen when it comes to taxation. Because you want to bid for a project, maybe a government tender or anything. Talk of which realize you have blacklisted for some odd reason five, ten years back yet. So talk of talking of tenders, yeah, here are my do's and don'ts. I don't do tenders.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

I don't do I was wanted to ask you, eh, hey, uh, you don't do tenders?

SPEAKER_05 56:08

I don't do tenders, I don't do uh this uh pay after work. How do you call them?

SPEAKER_01 56:13

I don't know.

unknown 56:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Atamime, I don't do those ones. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 56:16

And I also don't do competitions or contests. For the simple fact that I do not know anybody who has done a tender or legitimately. Yeah, legitimately, first of all. And if it's legitimate, they don't have a they have they have they don't have a problem with the final payment. Because when it comes to tender, when you say for me, the final payment is 10%. Tenders in a conga. So you deliver first and then you get paid after that. So tender is basically 100%. So imagine when a case.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

I don't even know about tenders because I don't do tenders at all. It's always something for me.

SPEAKER_05 56:47

Here's how tenders work. You are called as different uh different suppliers. So for example, right now we are doing uh design syndio. They call, they invite you, they invite me, they invite her, they invite him. We all bid, they give us this is the scope of work. You take the details, you give your, you give your rates, you give your final quotation. So on a bid you bid maybe 5 million, 6 million, 5.5, 7 million. So they're going to go with the the cheapest, right? And then you're given an LPO, and then you give a timeline, and then these are going to be the deliverables. But after that, what the process entails, as theoretically as it can be, the moment you've handed over the project, you're given a certificate and you're given the final payment. That's how things are supposed to be. But that's not how they are, especially in our country. So you have very, very, many times I've I know of people who keep chasing for final payments for years through different administrations. So, and it's not just about government, even just normal tenders, even normal normal tenders, corporates. They do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Yeah, because me have been in places where we've been asked for tender and we didn't get. So I've not I don't me personally notice to do it bold as being employed somewhere else. We didn't get, so I've really never followed the other things. And I remember at some point, maybe after one or two, we also made uh intentional decision not to move forward with tenders because also you see you have the discussions in the background. Oh, Hinya nani, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:25

Same thing with uh competitions. So there was this time. This is something.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

Oh, wait, see Tenda Yagawa. Sorry, Miss Defanya Tendayagawa. Ilya two normal competitions.

SPEAKER_05 58:35

So there was this time I was working, I was working uh along Gong Road. If you know, you know. And then there was this time she, uh my boss, there was a lady, she had been called for a job somewhere along uh Karibuya Center. And then we got into the lift to Kengyaku office. And then what what I noticed about her, she was looking around the space. Like she was admiring this. This place looks nice. We went southern at the reception, to Kutoka reception, to Kengyakwa boardroom. We had a discussion with the guys after about 20-30 minutes. They I I don't know what they I can't remember what they wanted to do. I think they wanted to do a little bit of maintenance in their space to Katoka, to Kengyakwa lift. And then she told me these guys that the feet outs they've done was actually a competition that she had participated in. And that reception space was her design. So this is the backstory that she participated, she gave her her nini her concepts, and then they went silent.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

And they used them.

SPEAKER_05 59:44

You know, in a competition, because I've done a couple of uh government uh competitions, but not in interior design, in graphic design. What is supposed to happen? You're supposed to hand in your designs at this particular time. And then after they've selected the winner, they will inform all of you. Uh dear Abigail, after father whatever, so and so has won. But if somebody was uh a truthful person, uh since you've not won, we liked something about what you did with the reception space. Can we talk about that? That would have been an honest person. But for you to come later on, they even had the audacity to invite her in a space that they had not paid for.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

I'd be very careful. Yes, audacious person and disrespectful. That's so much disrespectful.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:34

Disrespectful, actually. So uh but I'm I'm not sure if maybe the people who invited her knew the backstory. Knew the backstory yet. So she told me he designed Niango. And we even went to the office, she even showed me the renditions. This is what we submitted. We submitted. It's copy paste of exactly what she had she had given. That's why personally I do not have, and that's just one story that I've come uh across. Everyone I've spoken to who has done a tender, who has done uh who has done uh delivery before payment, who has done a competition, they don't have anything positive to say about that. So I don't know if it's a culture amongst us or it's just a culture of thieves. Yeah. So you cannot, and okay, let me just put this put it put it as a side note. We cannot behave like that and then call out our leaders for the same thing. Because the leaders come from among us, and how we behave is a reflection of how our leaders are going to behave. But that's just that's away from design. But for me, I'm I don't see myself going into competitions, going into tenders. Those I actually have just one. That's that client I was talking to you about. They deliver they have a policy for a 30-day payment period. So from the time you issue your invoice, 30 days after that, you're going to get your payment. And it is automatic 30 days, not a day more, not a day less. But so far, for me, I can say those are the don'ts of uh dealing with money. I don't do tenders, I don't do uh deliveries, I don't do competitions.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Be safe. And we are going to wrap it up there. Whoever wants to go and do those competitions and tenders, God bless you all the best. Sisiapaw Williat Fanyangizo. Thank you so much. I hope you've learned something new. Go check out our notebooks, go and write what you learned from this episode, follow the prompt. Cindy, and see you on the next episode. Asante Sana.