unknown 0:00

One, two.

SPEAKER_03 0:01

The very thing that makes you a great designer might be the reason you're losing money.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

A lot of us are in interior design because we really love the artistic side of it. So we tend to get sometimes lost in the artistic side and not following the money. And that's a hard lesson to learn. The money you lose is usually the money you never tracked. Track your milestones, track the work, track the payments so that you don't even lose what's within your your grasp.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Welcome to interior design and money. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today we are on interior design and money, the show where we talk about interior design careers and the money behind the work. Today I have Kristin on set. She was on season one of Classroom Perses Experience. Yeah, and now she's back. So thank you so much for honoring our invite again. Thank you for having me. Karibu Karibu. Please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

All right. Um Christine Ganga, managing director and founder of Style by Design Limited. We are a luxury interior company. Um, yeah, and we're happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Good, good, good, good. So we've shot an episode with you before on Classroom versus Experience where we really want to mentor the ones who are coming in, emerging interior designers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

And we've done an episode with you. What surprised you most about the other designers' journeys?

SPEAKER_02 1:42

I watched quite a number of them. And it seems we all have different journeys that we've gone through. Like night and day for most people. Like the experiences from campus, experiences of their first jobs, you know, and where they are now. Like not everybody took the same path to get to where they are. So I thought it was, it's, it's, it's just surprising that, you know, it it doesn't matter which path you're on, um, you're still gonna end up somewhere, somewhere in your destination, and that's okay. Yeah, and if and and you having a different journey, that's okay. Not everybody has to have the same journey. Um, because I think most people think like this, you have to do A, B, C, D, you know. Yeah. And literally it's not linear, sometimes it's very abstract, and you have to experiment here and there before you learned what you really want to do. Want to do, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was quite interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Which story stuck with you? Do you remember any one particular one?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Okay, I don't know why, but there's one about mango juice.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Was it because of the title? Was it because of the content?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

No, even the story was quite hilarious. You know, guys, like unique, you think you're studying for something, but you're busy side hustling, you know. Um, yeah, I I guess the title also caught my eye. Um, but yeah, it was just it was actually just very hilarious. It was a very hilarious story. Um, yeah, so that one was interesting for me um to see how students um mostly well, actually, to see how a lot of entrepreneurs um had a lot of side hustling culture in uni. Oh, really? Yes, yes, yes. I think I picked up on that. Yeah, like most of the entrepreneur guys um that you've featured had um like a very hustler mentality, like be doing things while you're in uni. Yeah, you know, so it started way back, it started way back, yeah. So I noted that's a common thing, by the way. Guys were selling mango juice, guys uh braiding hair, guys are selling what.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Yeah, yeah, that was very interesting. And do you have any one particular lesson that you took away from any one guest or any one story?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Um just uh what was her name? I can't remember her name, but um, I remember she's I think the director of Athena. Yeah, I really loved her episode. Yes, Olive, exactly. Um, I loved her journey, I loved her uh I really resonated with her experience as well. Um yeah, and I I just liked her experience and her story. I felt like I really relate to that, and I think this platform is good for people to kind of see how we can relate to people and see what their journey was, see how they succeeded, how they failed, how they got back up again.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Yeah, some of those things were really quite inspiring. Yeah, I think so. And I just love the way she's given herself permission to be anything at any time, be her, yeah, be that person, yeah, be yeah, yeah. So, why do you think new listeners should go back and watch season one before they even start watching this one?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Um again to just see that the the journey is not linear, yeah, to understand there's very many ways to get to your destination and to pick up the lessons that uh people have gone through, the things that people have tried and failed and succeeded, and you know, and not to really beat up yourself about things. Um, it's encouraging, it's very encouraging to know that yeah, guys, I've made it and it wasn't just a straight line to making it. Yeah, yeah. I think people need to hear that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Over and over and see themselves in other people as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yes. No, you're not in you're not alone, yeah, in your struggles or in your doubts or in your fears. There's people going through things, and by hearing each other's stories, we get to kind of feel like we're part of something and we can resonate or see ourselves in somebody. And yeah, yeah, I I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Oh, good. So, guys, please go back and watch season one after this episode. Go see and Apollo poly. You can binge. I think as of now we have 31 episodes online. Imagine.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Hey, congrats.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Hi, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you imagine what for someone who never loved social media at I'm shocking myself?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

I know it's it's also a journey for you, you know. Yeah, and I'm sure the encounters are just every story is different, yes, and yeah, it's inspiring in its own way. Kabiza, yeah, Sasa.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Let's jump into integer design and money. Are you scared?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Well, where are the tissues? You start crying.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Let me ask, do you remember what your first salary was?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yes, I remember uh because I remember what I asked for when I came into the into the um interview, and I asked for yeah up here, and they laughed at me. Um, and they were like, okay. So you do you mind sharing? Do you know how much yes, yes, yes, yes. So um, but okay, yeah, so uh they they laughed at me, but uh they were like, okay, we'll we'll go think about it, and asked for housing allowance and asked for all these things, car allowance, fuel allowance, everything allowance. I know for their first job I came with confidence and entitlement. Yeah, but anyway, uh a few days later they called me back and they were like, We're not able to match what you said, but can we start with this? So that this was 84,000, which I was like, you know what? My foot is in the door. Let's take it. Wait, was this net or growth? Um, that was net actually. You are doing that job. Nilikuja confidence, and imagine a dust for more juice and so that by the time they're coming to the land, we can't go and that's for one ten so plus other benefits, other benefits. I know, convert to dollar, but I think wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Love that about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah, I I came with that. Yeah, I came with that because you know you don't know. So me, I'm like, this this is a good figure to go home with. I mean, nobody told me about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

So me, I was just like, I I feel like this is a good was it a big company when you think about it, like if you looked at it, was it within their affordability?

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, yeah, it was okay, okay, okay. Yeah, it was a big enough company. Um, so yeah, I think it was within, but I think they were just like, but you're fresh from uni, yeah. You don't know you, we just got here. Yeah, so I was I I shot I shot my shots, and you got somewhere, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

And my foot was in the door, that's what matters. Well, you'll watch the other episode that I shot, you'll see how much I earned, and then you cry for me. Oh my goodness, my guy, mine was 25 gross. G okay, gross what job not internship and not hassle and not volunteer, not volunteer. And I was in Kenya. Imagine.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Come on now, imagine what for how long?

SPEAKER_03 10:09

I should have just been on my knees thinking, God, and because when I got that amount, I was happy. I was like, guy, me patakazi. You know, me, I've gotten work, I'm okay. Me, I was like probation period, too. Guy, do you know me mine was not until I left, like I was there for like wow now, leave in township for the job, I think for two and a half, almost three years. Same. Same. You're joking.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Um, okay, I guess then some of us use out there come with some sort of entitlement and yes, which helped you. Audacity. The audacity helped you. Yes, because me I'm like, see, I've come with my degrees. Yeah, me, guys.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Yeah, and then I think the one thing also for me, and the at that point, one, I really I think didn't know how much people get at their first jobs, and then two, fair enough, yeah. I had so many side hustles. You get like I would make money here and there. Yeah, sometimes I don't have money, sometimes I have a lot of money. So to me, you know, making money was not a thing, as in it was so easy. Like tomorrow, if I was like, I was broke, I would figure out oh, by Saturday, I need to have made, let's say, 10k, and I would have made 10k. One or like I always, and on the days I decided I don't want to work, I'll just be like, ah, for the next three months, I'm just I'll just be at home. Sure, okay. And then when I decide to make money, I say, okay, how much do I want? I put the figure, work backwards.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

So actually I feel like I was a lot better at making money when I was or thinking pick when I was you have to, because if you are given a comfortable number, yeah, you wouldn't be bothering to do all these other things. But also, again, also the money that you make is not like so astronomical.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

They were okay for that yeah, for that time for that season.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Yeah, yeah. So nongi at that time because how Lippy rent, nini ni. Yeah, with your parents, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So um, let me ask that position, what was in the position name? Um, it was just interior designer. Oh, yeah, okay, okay. Me, I started as an assistant interior designer, my first one. So I moved from intern interior designer to assistant interior designer. We didn't really have, I think, oh, the hierarchies or hierarchies, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It was interior designer, you just architect. So, yeah, some things I had to carve out my own titles. Oh, yeah, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

What funded your start in interior design? Do you feel? Not now employment, now when you left.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Um, when I left, I guess I had put some money aside just to be comfortable. Um, because I knew, you know, it's hit or miss whether you're gonna get a job coming in or not. Um, so as I was as I was employed, I was saving up um here and there. I would invest in my you know, computer or whatever. Um, just starting slowly, basically. Yeah, to save while I was was employed.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah, basically. Ah, okay. And then do you remember now when you look back, the first time you ever turned down work, and you decided missed.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yep. No, I remember it very well. What happened? Because it was a very big uh learning, uh a very big lesson for me. Um I was in a project. Obviously, I'm not gonna name names or anything. Uh I was in a project. Uh, I was brought in by the husband, um, but I think he took a back seat and it was the wife that I was dealing with. Um, and you know, they pay their deposit very well. We agree, okay, this is the scope of work. Um and then we, you know, we go around the house, this is what we need to do, blah, blah, blah. Uh, prepare a proposal, blah, blah, blah. And of course, they told me, like, oh, the scope is not that big. Don't, don't, don't go too crazy um on the furnishings and all that. Um, so I was like, okay, yeah, I work with your budget, it's whatever. Um then yeah, we we were mostly dealing with the wife. Uh, I would give a proposal and she'd shut it down. I'm like, oh, okay. Uh I revised the proposal, she shut it down. And then it just kept on getting ruder and ruder and ruder, and I was like, eh, okay. So you start doubting your abilities, you know, like, am I getting it or am I not getting it? You know. Well, I think you actually mentioned this on the other. Yeah, I did, yeah, exactly. So um, yeah, so you're giving the proposal, giving the proposal, you're just being shut down. But it's not even like constructive criticism, it's just really like rubbishing your work. Yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm not sure about this. And again, um, rudeness to people, like rudeness to myself, rudeness to other people, rudeness to your own husband. I'm just like, eh, this one, no, it's not going well for me, and I'm really not enjoying this experience. And yeah, and I was just like, okay, guys, uh, yeah, this is not working out. Yeah, I gave them some excuse. You know, I'm busy with other things, and I was just like, here's your deposit back. This is after like how long do you remember? I can't remember, but it was pretty early on. Okay, so it's not like you've really done a lot, a lot of work. Oh no, the work had done like five revisions of mood boards basically. And if you know how long mood boards take, yeah, they take so long to do. Yeah, um, for some of us, anyway. It's my least favorite thing to do. It takes so long because there's so much research in it. Um, and you really, as an artist, you put your heart into things, you know. You really try and listen to a client, the brief, the brief, and you're like, Oh, let me put this. I think they'll love this, and blah blah blah. So you put your all into it just for somebody to be like, ah no, my five-year-old or my 15-year-old can do better, you know. And I'm like, okay, you can just say you just don't like it, or I don't like this, I don't like the colours.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

You don't like where do I move from your five-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Exactly. You know, I'm like, it's not constructive. Yeah, so I was just like, okay, I maybe I'm not the right fit for you, you know. Yeah, so uh found a way to exit and yeah, and left and left that project. So yeah, I'll I'll always remember that one. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. So let me take you somewhere else. Yeah, pricing, yeah. Pricing, pricing, pricing. Do you have pricing boundaries? Um, yes. Have you ever had one that backfired on you? Like you're trying to enforce it on a client, and they're and it's like, I not working.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, um, of course, my journey has not been super linear. Um, there have been trials and errors here and there. Um, there were times where you know you take on a project, you're excited. By the way, a lot of us we are just excited to do your project. You know, we're just happy. You tell us the brief, and we're like, we're ready to go on this project. You know, sometimes we don't even see the money, we are seeing the project and how we are falling in love with it, you know. So now sometimes for us, some people are not uh money-minded on the, you know, we're not on the money yet, we are on the artistic side. Um, so you fall in love with the project and everything. Um, of course, you just give your lamp sums, uh, quotations, and whatever. And now things like site visits, you realize somebody is calling you to be on site every five minutes. And you've not priced for it. You know, those days I was not pricing for a site visit. So you just you you're just in love with the project. Ah, you show up, oh, there's this to see, you go see, oh, there's this problem, you go fix. So you just end up going and going and going to site. Yes, you're enjoying, but it's taking your time, your energy, your effort. Um, and is that being compensated? It's not. Um, so I would lose so much because I'm giving so much on the site visits and things like that. Yeah, and and I didn't have a structure for that. So I in the very beginning I was losing mostly on that. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

So now you've put you've enforced it. Passite visit. Oh, actually, even me I do par site visit, but let me ask for the first one, do you?

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Uh for the first one, no, not necessarily unless it's out of town. Okay, yeah, not necessarily unless it's out of town. Um, yeah, uh, I know some people do it, some people don't. But for me, the first one, I'm lost like, okay, I'm willing to let that one go because I need to come see the space or see the site or have a discussion with you. Um, engage. And sometimes when you just bring the money up front, sometimes maybe it's uh, you know, some people don't take it very well.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Um, but honestly, uh, yeah, the first one I don't really, but anything after that? For sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Yeah. You know, usually struggle with that because for me, the first one you pay. Unless it's a virtual meeting, because I'm not moving around. Do you know how long it takes to just spend here? Yes, the movement. Because once you've gone, it's like a whole day or half day. Because once you're preparing, then now you're driving, then you sit there, you're waiting for someone, they're not even keeping time. Then now you start the meeting, they don't understand that it's a meeting. You need to go and do something else. They feel like since you've come for this meeting, it's like that's the only work you're doing, like today. Then now you finish. By the time you're driving back, it's like four o'clock. Now, what am I doing at four? You know, like so. For me, the first one, me nakwangidogo. For that one, does it is it the best policy? I it may not be. Yeah, it may not be. In fact, even I think last week there's one who reached out, and I the fact that I told them I charge the first one, ilim put off kabisa. So viewers, just me you make your decision. If you're comfortable in your heart to lose it, exactly, you be comfortable because it puts some people off. But for me personally, usually you have this discussion like when you go to a doctor, right? Yeah, consultation of whether they will find out what your problem or not, just to enter attack reception. I don't know. Then we go and we discuss, yeah. You get, yeah, yeah. And sometimes you're not even getting the doctor you want. You get true, true. You get so I usually feel like no, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

I think mine is a little bit different because a lot of the clients I have are like referral or people that I already know. Yes, I have. But then they are not necessarily strangers, okay. Um, so yeah, it's like, oh, this is my friend. Okay, I have you know that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Yeah, yeah. Also, for me, like clients who have been referred, I don't charge them. Like Christian told me, Oh, this nanny, let's go meet. I won't charge you. But now, like the one I was saying last week. Last week, I don't know you, I don't know you, you know. And then some you just can't hear, they really also are not very sure whether they want an interior designer. It's like they're trying to they're fishing. They are just fishing and just trying to see and get ideas. You know, they want to just brainstorm. Like, oh no, no, they call you first meeting. Oh, tafanya ninja. But like my first meeting is to understand what you need, not to tell you, oh, you need to fix this and you need to fix that. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

I think I also usually um first, even before the first site visit or site meeting, I ask them for all the information. So, do you have any layouts? Send them to me. I have a look at them. Do you have any um do you have a general brief that you have? Just give it to me over the phone. Um, what's the general location? How long is the duration of the project? So I get that information, and then by the time even I'm coming to meet you on a site visit, I've already given you a free proposal. Okay, got it. Oh yeah, so I already know whether you want to proceed with this thing or not. Yeah, so it's not just yeah, so it's also not just um somebody has called me and they're like, Can you come at 3 p.m.? No, give me the information of the project so I see if it's worth also me. Okay, that's where I mean, and whether we are, you know, are we agreed? Because what if I come and then I give you my bill later and you're like, No, exactly, because that's what actually is.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

And I'm seeing now that's where the difference comes in. Because a couple of them I ask, okay, send me the drinks. Oh, I don't have drinks. This maybe was an old billing. I don't have G Ward, I don't have A, I don't have B. Cindy, okay. Could you send me site photos? Okay, then can you pay the depositor pan na mysico willing? They are not willing to give you anything to work with, yeah. They're not if you need the drinks, or they don't even have really see at one cata. They don't have yeah, yeah, fair enough. They don't have okay. Can you send someone on on site to take photos for you? They don't want, they're like, you just come. I yeah, it's like you need to see this. You need to see this. So for me, those one. I need to see. I need to see you. So for me, those ones, but anyway, you guys pick and choose what is important to you, what works for you, what makes sense. Because has makes a lot of sense. I've already given you the fee proposal. Yes. Kama ni kushtuko ni shash to kakitambo. Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Or we negotiate beforehand, before we even we meet. Yeah, so sometimes, yeah, people get to meet my fee before they may they meet me. Oh, yes, so yeah. So I don't see now the point of charging for the site visit because we've already agreed on the bigger thing. Makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Makes sense. Maybe you should try that.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Different paths for different people, whatever works for you, basically.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

I know, yeah, yeah. Hiya, tell me do you have a formula for calculating your fees? Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Um what's the formula really? I because the in TJ's it's so broad, it's so and the needs are so unique and the briefs are so different. Um I usually first listen to what's the brief from the client. Um, because you know, someone can come to you and they're just like, I just want one room only. Someone else will come, like, I want the whole house redesigned, or it's a restaurant or something, or I only want the 3Ds and I don't want the technical layouts or supervision. I just want to see how the visual is. Yes, exactly. So the different clients, different needs. Um, I generally have categories of the deliverables. So there's the technical drawings, um, which are the floor plans, you know, etc. Um, then you have the uh 3D renders, uh, so that's the visuals, you know, that will show you how they spaces look. Uh then I have sourcing uh where I go and help you look for the finishes and fittings and fixtures, whatever. Um, then I have supervision, so I check in on the project from time to time. Uh yeah, I think those are the the main.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

So do you do perhaps for each category?

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Do you have like a yes? So I give you the price per category because you can pick and choose what you want. So the the price per category is it a lump sum, is it per square meter? It's uh it's a lump sum. So I look at the square meters, yes, and I have a general, you know, um amount for per square meter, how many bedrooms is the house, if it's residential, but yeah, what square footage it it is. Um, and I have a range of to charge this to this to this.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah, so each eventually I don't show you the calculation, but I'll give you in a lump sum form. Oh yeah. And then site visit is now past site visit.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah. How long did it take you to get to a level where you have, you know, rates for each category? Because you know, a rookie now coming in and starting out, we may not know what to charge.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Um I think I had to do a few projects and see the range of how much I was charging.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

And then now kind of place it in an average there, you know. So if I've done a few four bedrooms or something for about 450k or something, maybe some are 400 because someone bargained and someone else was 500 because they had more things going on, or 550, you know, then I just try and get the middle. Middle ground, middle ground, the average for them. Yeah. So just looking at the projects that I'd done over a while and being like, This is the range for this type of house. You know, because someone will come to you with a house and be like, okay, how much is it? You give them and they're like, whoa, too much. And if too many people are doing that, and you realize, eh, okay. My menu is within. It's yeah, if if too many people are shocked that it's too high, then you're like, Oh, okay, maybe let me adjust a little bit. What is what is like acceptable across all of them? Yeah, things like that, but also not to go too low because there are people going too low, you know. So it's always cheaper, okay. Yeah, so also something that I'm like, I know the work that I'm doing, I know how many renders I'm producing. Each render I price it at around this much. So if you come to me and I you have like 10 rooms, I'm not gonna um give you a low price because I know how many rooms that I have to do renders for, you know. Yeah, so so now what I do is I uh if there's a problem with the price point, then now we tweak the scope.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Yes. I also like that tweaking the scope, and I also realized also as me not being when I'm not a service provider, when now I'm I'm the recipient, because I've realized how difficult it is being a service provider and someone wanting to just Pungusa Yobe, I also then tend to be a bit more flexible when I'm also bargaining and telling um my service provider, toa hinahi nahi, and then just keep the price because also you can't squeeze, you know where the yeah, the pain is pinching. Yes, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are some you know outright this is not within my range, and then there are some you're like, I okay, I still want to work with you, but maybe A, B, and C is not important for me.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

So we have to be realistic as well. So I'm not trying to squeeze the money out of you. I know what my time is worth, yeah, and I also don't want to be paid less than what my time is worth is worth, you know. Yeah, so we tweak the scope, meet me somewhere, not halfway, but somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Sour. Let me ask. Do you have do you have a pricing policy that you wish from day one set? Leave alone out the site to visit one. I see that's the main one. Oh, me, I think my one policy that I wish I'd set from day one was getting an advanced payment. I learned that one too late. Oh no, me, I learned that one early. Very early.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Advanced payment, lazima, muhimo. Yes, okay, maybe not that early, but uh yeah, one, two, three times. And then you're like, hey, no, I've been doing free work here.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Um, I think the main one I would love to enforce is based on the milestones, pay based on milestones. Oh, you don't do it? No, I do. Oh, you wish you had it. But I don't enforce it. I was not enforcing it as as monthly on its own. You know, we become friends, we become buddies, I'm in love with your project. Yeah, I'm working, I've forgotten, I passed that milestone a month, two months ago. You know, so I'm like, hey, whenever I need the money, I'm like, where are we on this milestone? Ah, it was two months ago. Yeah, yeah. So I I wish I was stricter on the milestones.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yeah, there's a pile of men I'll ask her after this. She told me how she's automated her invoicing. So there's no emotions and wondering or forgetting. Right. You get, yeah. So is imisha equa. In fact, I think for the project I'm currently doing, Kashu, nenda kufanya invoices. We already know, like by when I need to have finished what? Yes. Nina Ziakakwa email ready to schedule, schedule, send. Mine is manual because I'm using email, hash actually uses a system. Wow. You get hush uses a system, but I'm like, I think I need to follow that advice. Again, because I'm also like you. Sometimes I see it and then I let it flow over, then I'm like, okay, to take what I'm here, but while you want a takash do revision, you know it schoolmaster you even to school yourself and to school the client.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah, exactly. I think because uh some of our work is very fluid, and uh, you know, sometimes you can say, Oh, I'll take a week to do this thing, and then there's things on site, the client has changed their mind, things are flowing, so the time goes even longer. You know, so you you can't even forget, you know, or you can just you're not even there. You're just on the work and the and the crises and you know, yeah, everything. Yeah, so system, yeah, definitely getting a system in place, yeah, um, that is automated, yeah, would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Uh for us creative guys who are just going with the flow.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah. Because I remember, like, for this particular, I think I implemented a lot of things I've also learned from classroom, classroom versus experience. Because typically, you know, the your contract tells you. So I usually for mine, I tell you how much I'm charging and I tell you like how long each stage is gonna take and by when you need to finish. Yeah. So for this particular, this one I'm currently doing, I was very like I put it, me manual like exile. So I manually calculated, for example, you see 20 days for this stage, meaning 20 working days I counted, removed the weekends, removed public holidays, put I need to have finished by this nini. So on paper, I know I know all my milestones. I know by the 20th I should have done this by the word of me. I need to have done this by this, and this that's why I'm saying I think tomorrow, nina, and then I've put like leeway the way as per contract, the way it's like how many days are you also giving the client to review because it's not just immediate and to review. So by the time I'm sending you, as you are reviewing, invoice Amanda. So we are discussing as you also knowing that kunapesa in a saqua inalipua within the next two or so weeks. Yeah, yeah. So I think fair enough. Schedule send, schedule, send, schedule, send. By the time we're seeing it's send. If I'm not done anything, guy, that's true, and now it's on you, it's on me.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Fair enough. Me, I think I I'm just very um fluid or relaxed in that department. Uh yeah, I need someone to come and crack a whip. I I will be the one to come.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Ha me, I'm usually so dad as there.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I'm so even my clients sometimes like they're just like, hey, Christian, I want to die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

And I'm like, oh my god, yeah, yeah, I forgot. Wait, so use is forgetting, it's not fearing.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Literally forgetting. Me, I don't fear. Once I remember, I've sent you. I'm just so engrossed in my work. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I really am. Yeah, so I just need somebody else who is just on top of it.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Oh, got it. Yeah, yeah. Let me move to another segment on client nightmares. Yeah, are you ready for that? Hey, am I? One tell us one big or your biggest client red flag that you have. And you're just like, you nakwane kupatana we come where to begin?

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Red flag number one from the first phone call. If you call me and you're like, this thing is urgent, we need to meet right now. Where are you? In fact, come to my office. I'm just like, I don't think we're a good fit. Yeah. Because for me, that means, okay, I understand. Like Nairobians, you know, hey, things are urgent and whatever. But I feel like that's not respecting someone's time. No, I'm not just sitting around doing nothing. I've got things I'm doing. Um, let's respect each other's time. You know, you don't just show up somebody like, hey, stop what you're doing and give me your time and attention. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's it's a sign that you will be very difficult, for lack of a better word, um, to work with. I can foresee that things will be like everything will be urgent and like an emergency, an emergency. And I'm like, your emergencies, you know, how is that my concern per se? Um, without sounding rude. That's in your head. That's in my head. Yeah. But yeah, I'm always like, I respect people's time. Like, I try to, you know, if I really want to see somebody, I'll call them. Are you free? Do you have a moment to speak on the phone with me? Even a phone call. I don't expect you to have time to answer that phone call right away. I'll be like, Do you have time to talk right now? Is now a good time? Or can I call you later? You know, that kind of thing. Just you know, being polite. Yeah, because people are doing things in their lives. Then they're not just waiting around for clients and you know, yeah, people are doing things. So when someone is just like, I need to see you like 30 minutes, I could be in another country for you know, and in your 30 minutes. Well, you know, like short timelines, those are the people who don't respect boundaries and timelines, things like that. Hey, how many do you want? Number two. Boundaries, people don't respect boundaries as well, are very closely related to the people who don't respect the time. So people don't respect boundaries in the sense that they want to call you at midnight, you know, they won't call you at on Sunday, yes. You know, they want to they they just feel very entitled to your time and your attention. And I'm like, okay, I'm exchanging my services for time.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Um, you know, like let's not push these boundaries. Like I communicate, like I'm available from this time to this time. You're not likely to find me on this day and this day, or if I if or if it's like Saturday, maybe you'll find me in the beginning of the day. Afternoon, maybe not, you know. But also, if you don't find me by phone, just text me. Yeah, you know, I'll respond. Yeah, but I think there's an urgency of whether it's this day and age or what, yeah, everybody just expects you to be on call, yeah, to be ready to be, you know, like your phone is right here, yeah, ready to pick it up at any moment in time. You're ready to drop things. You know, you know, someone actually asked me that, and I'm like, okay, who told you that's the most important thing in my life? You know, I want peace. That's what I want. Um, so people can think, in fact, some clients of men jokingly call me Mzongu. They are spoiled, they're not hungry for this money, you know. And I'm just like, okay, me, I value my peace, I value my family time. Um, and and I also don't like the anxiety of like be available every second. Um, yeah, it's you can't even plan your day or your week, right? Yeah, you can't plan your and everybody just feels very entitled to your time. So, where when will you have time to actually think and design and draw and produce good things if you're always on call? Yeah, then someone told me, get up here.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Are you going to pay for the P do people understand all the bills that come with running an office? What?

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah, so people don't respect your time, uh, people don't respect your boundaries when you put them and they keep wanting to cross them. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

Actually, you just reminded me about this urgent manino. Um, this client of mine yes, this is a client because we actually worked on a project together. So I'll give hypothetical so that it's not very specific. And I'm saying so I remember we'd heard back and forth about site visits, nini nini. So me, I also charge a party. Yeah, per visit. Then at some point they're like, Oh, it's okay. Um don't be coming. Us when we really need you is when we'll call. I'm like, cool. No loss because anyway, me, I'm doing other things, it's fine. Then I know we were supposed to do the setup. So, setup basically, for anyone who doesn't know, is if you have an you've already constructed the whatever it is, office, house, or whatever. Now you want to bring in the furniture, the lighting, everything. You set it up for whoever needs to use it, to use it, yeah. So I won't specify what I was setting up. I don't think she can easily, but we were doing a setup. So me, I'm just scaring in the background that hey, uh, this thing is going to be we need to set up, setup. I've already bought the items, I know they've arrived. But there was such a big gap, like maybe two months of waiting because the site wasn't ready. Oh, okay. So now as I'm waiting, I'm like, hey, um, so I'm not coming frequently because you told me stay away because you don't pay the party. Yes, yeah. I but Naskia, oh, Kuna, this thing is people are coming to see, people are coming. So I'm like, but even me who's supposed to set up so despite our differences and whatever, I reached out and I'm like, hey, baby, we know I keep hearing that you guys need this thing set up by such and such a date. And one has told me, does it mean you guys are okay to proceed? Even me, I mind, because if you're okay, you're okay, but I don't want it to be sprang on me. Yes, who just come suddenly, come suddenly. You have 24 hours to finish. To finish. Yeah. Then they're like, ah, it's okay, we'll reach out. Let's let's discuss internally, and I'm like, ah, no problem. I I move like three days. I'm like, did you discuss about this thing? They're like, ah, you know. Um I didn't really get concrete feedback, so just let it be. Because what we had agreed is moving forward, before you go to any meeting, it's going to be written on email. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then let's say today is on a Wednesday night, and suddenly apparently they have a party and they want to host people there on Saturday. So on Wednesday night. And they tell me now, okay, could you come and I uh I really need your support. You had so much time, you had so much time, and out of you know, just being decent, I reached out ahead of time. I'm like, by the way, can I come the next week? And I was like, Can I come the next week? On Monday, Niku Jennywa Fanny. Do you know what? I was like, I can unfortunately I can't because I already walked. You know, I was like, Oh, yeah, because there's other things there's there's other things, and us guys were actually traveling. The family. So am I going to tell my hubs, like, hey, sorry, guys. I need to somewhere where we need to pull all nighters pull all nighter. And he had also said, Oh, but then your thing, I do need to be uko. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I reached out and they were like, they don't need, or it doesn't seem like they need me. So this was like plan A B C D.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

So I was like, okay, I'm sorry, but me, I can't come through at this point. And in fact, I had specifically told them I need 12 days because it's huge. It's not one. They were like three. I don't specify what three. So I was like, I need 12 days. Initially, they had said, Oh, 12 ni Mingi will give you seven. I was like, I've done this long enough to know it cannot be done in seven days. Even in employment, we used to do such big numbers, it cannot be done. Do you know they came and said at you, oh, you abandoned the project? You refused to support the project when we needed you. When we needed you. I'm serious, I'm not even making it up. I can imagine. Like I was so offended because I'm like, what level of disrespect must you have for me to feel like to give me three three three dates?

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

And it was on condition that you're there night and day.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

For a job that's 12 days to be done in three days. In three days. And then me lifanya kazimbaya, owner, haku Maliza. I said I'm not going to put my name on that. You get.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Yeah. So at some point I was like, I this is a boundary issue. It's like a disrespect issue. You know, because I've even reached out. Yeah. At that point, you'd have said, Oh, okay, then do it. You get anyway, stuff out here.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

It is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

How would you have handled that, baby?

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Probably in the same way. Yes. If it's not possible, it's not possible. Yes. And like honestly, on a day to day, you could be anywhere. With our kind of job, you could be anywhere. You could be in Mombasa. Yes. You could be in Kilifi. You could be in Wajir for all we know. You could be in Siju, London, or wherever. You could be anywhere. So if you don't check in with me, like, oh, are you available?

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Yeah, I'm even looking for you. And then matters was like, okay, since I want to be around, what I can do on such and such a day, let's say on Monday, I'll be back. I can come and clean out for you, whatever you need cleaning out. They're like, no, you you refuse to support us.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

No, you gave them the chance. You gave them the chance to do it in the right amount of time. They didn't take it, so it can't be on you, honestly. And I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Yeah. So they got someone to step in to do, and then they also never finish. And I was like, Inge kwa ni mimi ni me ifanya na singe Maliza inge kwa twah.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Inge kwa issue. You see, yeah, but not because it's someone else. Oh, they didn't have enough time, it's okay. Oh, wow. You get, but that's what I'm like. Then you probably they had red flags girl from the from the edge. You see, sometimes in projects, and you're you're so grateful to be there. I think we also need to be a bit more structured. The way doctors are structured, the way engineers are structured.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

We are professionals and we're giving you professional advice, then you don't take it. Yeah, then you want to blame the professional for you not taking the advice. You know, guy, don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Stop treating us like we are running hobbies. I know. Do you have a prevention tactic for preventing scope creep? Scope creep for anyone who doesn't know is you've agreed with a client. Come here and put for me two chairs, two microphones, and a table. And then they decide now, two days later, I want you to also paint the wall, and then I want you to fix the light. And then three days later, no, I think we want to bomb out that whole wall at the back, and then now we put glass. Right. It's called creep.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Good old friend. Yeah. Um yes, I think in my contract, in the you know, in the contract very early on, I try and put some clauses there about if you need to add this thing, it will be at this amount.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Oh, really? Yeah. Also, even things that you don't anticipate, you have like a round figure. Um, kind of, yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

So for example, like 3Ds, uh, because sometimes 3Ds tend to be the area that people want to change a lot for me. Or the ones that I've experienced, my clients want to change a lot. Um, yeah, so those ones I, you know, I give you a certain number of revisions. So we agree either two or three revisions that are given because I'm not gonna get it maybe right the first time. Sometimes I do, sometimes you don't. Um, but I need to leave you that flexibility that you can change one or two things here and there. So I give you like two to three revisions, depending on what we've agreed. Then beyond like three revisions, now I start charging per room. Yes, X amount per room. Um yeah, so that you understand that uh it's going to take time and effort and energy and money to keep revising this thing. Um, just so that you can see options.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, you know. And how about this? What if we make it pink? And what if we now put textured paint? And now let's try the wallpaper with animals.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Option A and option B and option C with this and this and this. Yeah, you know, so someone is, you know, I would love to give you all the options, but it will take time and energy and effort and sometimes even money, yeah, um, and resources. Um, so yes, I would that's why I give you the options of we can revise two, three times. So I've put it in the contract, and above and beyond that per revision will be this much. So I'm in control of I'm getting paid for those revisions. So I'm not feeling too bad about it. But also you're in control so that you realize, hey, let me give precise and clear instructions so that we're not on revision 50 something and I'm paying too much for it. Yeah. So some things like that I've put in place in the contract so that we don't waste each other's time or money, and and we kind of be more clear. Yeah. Because otherwise, left unchecked, you'll be there with the same project four years, five years later, something that should have ended. I've been down that revision hole where people just want to revise. Just I went here and I saw this was nice. And can we do that? Yeah. And I went here and oh, my friend thought, yeah, we should add this thing. Yeah. Can we see that? Yeah, you know, and you it's an endless loop of revisions, basically.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Hiya. Let me move to another section. Yeah. Um, do you remember? Um, should I say past or present? How many months of expenses that you have saved to cover for dry spells? Because this industry has days where you have you're bombarded with a lot of work and then sometimes it's dry, or you have a lot of projects within the same stage. Maybe they're all on concept, so there's nothing on site.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Or they're all on site, and then you've been paid all your drawing fees. True, true, true. Um whether I have a plan or whether you're when you usually have like an emergency fund for dress of money, mung.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

No, I I have a thing where I pay pay myself first, pay the business first. So, meaning I take whatever amount comes in, uh okay, there are times it used to be 50%, sometimes it's 30%, depending on the struggles. But I take that 50% and put it away in investment, then now I'm just working with the 50% at left. Or if I take the 30, yeah, at least 30. So minimum 30. Um, if I have so even it's not even on savings, it's in the so the money is making it better be making money, it better not be sitting there doing nothing. Yeah, yeah. So I put it there, it's making like money market fund. I just put it in there, it's doing something, it's earning its own money and all that. Um, so I don't look, I don't know if I look at it as for emergency or for dry spell. I just look at it like investment for the business.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Oh, that's nice.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah, so I pay like I don't, it's like tithing, you know. Yeah, you tithe, then you remove the one for investment, and then now what's left is what you work with. We are working with expense-wise. Yeah, so I do that, and that has really helped me in the dry seasons because now I can go back to that fund and pick something from it to pay guys or pay myself or do other things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

So that has really helped that culture.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah. And um what percent do you usually require upfront when you're charging your fees into your design fees? Uh it depends. Okay, also for me.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

There are some I'm a bit lenient, yeah, and others very strict. And it depends on the time frames as well.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

So if it's shorter time frame, I'm likely to ask for 50%. Um, and again, if it's not that big of a scope, you know, if it's something small, yeah, 50%. Um, but for the larger projects that are more for years and years, um, maybe around 30%. Yeah. And of course, the client sometimes negotiates and they're like, hey, no, I don't really know you. I'm giving you all this money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're like, okay, that's great, but okay, 25. Yeah. So I find some clients who bargain kidogo, some are better bargainers than others, but generally 30 to 50. Okay. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Now let's move to the rapid fire segment. Are you ready? I'm ready. So isn't it quick answers, no explanations? So are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 53:50

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Let's go. Uh-huh. What was your biggest expense when starting your ID career or switching to freelance or leaving a job to build your business? The biggest expense? My computer. Computer too. What is or was your biggest look professional expense? Is or was? My car. Oh, yeah. Do you give discounts to friends or family? Yes. Which platform drives the most leads for you? What corporate park do you miss the most? Lack of stress. I don't know. Probably five to six. Five to six. Where did your first solo client come from? Previous client. What was your largest rite of amount? Yani client America Kulipa, you just wrote it off.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Premium deals.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Largest. How much? Uh I think close to like half a name there. Okay, half a million. How many months until you broke even? I'm not even sure. It would have been like a year or something. Okay. What's your longest payment delay from a client? Probably a year. A year. Yeah. Cool. You've done well. Sour. Sour. Before we wrap it up, yeah. I want you to give advice. Should you know? It's really not advice, but just tell people who want to hear how they can make money into your design. Whatever you feel like someone can make money. How do people make money, or should they, or how did you? However, you want to answer it. How did you? How should they? How will you? How can you?

SPEAKER_02 56:02

All the above. Being as I'm not an expert. Just with whatever.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

And by the way, I'm not saying making money kubua. Yeah. It can be someone starting out. How can they make money? It can be someone who has been in business for long. It can be someone who wants to make a lot of money, whoever you want to address. Hey, I don't even know who to address now.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

I guess. Um for aspiring. Well, let me just give for aspiring or people who are in there already. Get your systems in place. That was a hard lesson for me that I'm still learning the systems. Um, because as I said, a lot of us are in interior design because we really love the artistic side of it. Not that we came here to be money-making. Yeah. We really love just creating things and seeing what we've designed, you know, come to life. Um, so we tend to get sometimes lost in the artistic side and not following the money, the business side. So sometimes you have to follow the money. And that's a hard lesson to learn sometimes. Yeah, like it comes with systems.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

So where are they following this money that they're putting into systems?

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Where what are they doing? So uh it's good to have systems like contracts, yeah, first and foremost. Um, enter into formal agreements with people. Um also follow through on the payments, which we are some of us are still learning. Try and track your milestones, track the work, track the payments, um, so that at least you don't even lose what already should be. Yeah, so that you don't even lose what's within your your your grasp. Um, and then uh retaining that money is pay yourself first. I think there's a book I read about profit first.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

So paying yourself first. Um yeah, like you can end up going to do all these things, na money ipote hi. Just immediately it comes in if you're one of those who tithes, tithe and then remove investment and savings, you know, just put them, let it be making money as well. Don't let it just sit around doing nothing and then now work on your expenses. Um, and yeah, maintain relationships because that's how I get a lot of my work from my relationships with architects, with other designers, with other engineers, previous clients, maintaining that relationship. Um uh just putting yourself in your work as well. Um, really enjoying what you do, people will see it and they'll be attracted to it.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

So the more you're just enjoying what you do, people are like, eh, now someone who will work that hard because they enjoy it. It's not just about the money. Yeah, you know, sometimes when you're chasing the money, you forget what makes interiors good. Yeah, focus on the interior side, the money will chase you, the clients will chase you. Yeah, focus on just being really good. Yeah, that people search for you, yeah. You're not searching for them.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Yeah, so put systems in place so that you're also not losing money that's already within reach. And with that, I'd like to wrap it up. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me and for sharing. We really appreciate it. By the way, before we close and wrap up, this necklace is from Zillafri. I'm going to tag it here. Go check them out. They have really nice neck pieces that you're going to see all through this season. That's our go check them out on Instagram. Pick out something as bold as this or from the previous episodes. That's our thank you so much for sponsoring this portion of the episode. I'm learning this hour. Until next time. See ya.