Scale Like a CEO

Scaling a Digital Marketing Powerhouse: Insights from Chris Dreyer, CEO of Rankings.io

• Justin Reinert • Season 1 • Episode 29

Share episode

What does it really take to sustain exceptional business growth year after year? Chris Dreyer, CEO of RankingsIO, delivers a masterclass in building a company that's made the Inc 5000 list for eight consecutive years without a single down year since 2013.

At the heart of RankingsIO's success is their laser focus on generating auto accident cases for personal injury attorneys - the universal "holy grail" case type that every PI firm desperately wants but struggles to obtain consistently. "The biggest problem in my industry is cases - the leads," Chris explains. "There's an oversaturation of attorneys, so the people that have all the leverage are the ones that can generate leads." This expertise has positioned them as an indispensable partner in an increasingly competitive legal landscape.

Perhaps most fascinating is Chris's evolution as a leader. He candidly shares that the $8-12 million revenue range presented his greatest scaling challenge, requiring investments in middle management and infrastructure before further growth could occur. His perspective on talent has similarly transformed: "Who you thought was an A player in the past may not be an A player in the future," reflecting how standards must continuously rise as the organization matures. This wisdom led to the creation of an "Excellence Advocates Committee" - composed of top performers who screen potential hires before they reach executive review.

The conversation reveals a leader who's meticulously strategic about the future. Chris outlines his growth approach through four leverage points: expanding media presence through conferences and podcasts, enhancing labor with nearshore training, implementing AI and automation, and even a long-term capital strategy involving Esquire Bank. Throughout it all runs an unwavering commitment to their values of excellence, execution, and grit.

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn or email him at chris@rankingsio.com to learn more about how relentless focus and continuously raising standards can drive extraordinary business growth.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Scale Like a CEO, the show where we dive into the strategies and challenges of building successful businesses. Today's guest is Chris Dreyer, CEO of Rankingsio. Chris has built a powerhouse digital marketing agency focused on personal injury attorneys, making the Inc 5000 list for eight consecutive years. Get ready for an insightful conversation about what it really takes to scale a business in today's competitive landscape.

Justin Reinert:

Chris, thanks so much for joining me on Scale Like a CEO. Just to get us started, could you give me a 90-second intro to yourself and your business?

Chris Dreyer:

Yeah, thanks for having me. So I am the CEO of RightGeeksio. We work with personal injury attorneys and help them with their digital marketing. We've been on the Geek 5000 list for eight consecutive years. Never had a down year since 2013.

Justin Reinert:

That's incredible, thank you. So what do you see as the biggest problem in your industry and how are you solving it?

Chris Dreyer:

Biggest problem in my industry is cases right, the leads. There's an oversaturation of attorneys. There's too many attorneys right, so the people that have all the leverages are the ones that has all the leverage, are the ones that can generate leads, and the cost to acquire a lead, particularly in the personal entry space, continues to rise because of saturation consolidation. So really it demands expertise. I get frustrated when you hear people like Peter Thiel and all these other individuals they talk about, basically where you need to just focus and niche entirely, but really out of the gate, you need to learn different areas of law, find who you're right for and then niche. So that was PI for us and that's how we discovered that we were good in this area and that's what we leaned into.

Justin Reinert:

Great. So what makes you unique in the way that you're helping people?

Chris Dreyer:

Yeah, the biggest is really we have a deep understanding of how to generate auto accident cases for personal injury attorneys. I mean, every personal injury attorney wants auto accidents. They're going to monetize it with their relationships. It doesn't matter If you go to any state in the United States, they want those types of cases. If you're in a different state, they may want a dog bite, but in certain states there's a one-day dog bite law, or in different states it's Med-Mal. In every state people want auto accidents but they're really challenging to get. There's a lot of volume to them, there's a lot of competition. So that's what makes this different is we really have honed in on not just the leads component but the specific the auto accident case, component Nice.

Justin Reinert:

Let's talk about the growth of your business. So you said Inc 5000, past eight years. That's incredible. Of your business, so you said Inc 5000, past eight years, that's incredible as you've been growing and scaling. What are some of the challenges that you've encountered as you transition, kind of from team of one to where you are today?

Chris Dreyer:

Yeah, the biggest thing is just continuing to raise my standards right, and have people that also have high standards. So you hear a lot that you want to hire only A players, but what I've discovered is who you thought was an A player in the past may not be an A player in the future, right, and that's kind of the saying of who got you there won't get you, who got you here won't get you there. That saying, right, it's because your ceiling of understanding, expertise and talent increases. Right, it's because your ceiling of understanding, expertise and talent increases, right. So there's this Dunning-Kruger effect of you think you have these experts or you're an expert, but maybe in reality you aren't.

Chris Dreyer:

So, that's been one component of the growth over the years. The other big challenge I had was in the $8 to $12 million range. You get in a scenario where you have to hire more middle managers and non-revenue generating employees to help you set up for scale at least in professional services, I think SaaS where you can get $400,000, 400 and 500,000 per head. It's a little bit different than in professional services. That was the most challenging. I needed more infrastructure to help facilitate the growth.

Justin Reinert:

Yeah. Yeah, it's been my experience that some people are good in smaller companies, Some people are good in ambiguous scaling companies. Some people are good in ambiguous scaling companies, Some people are good in just big companies. So this point of some people might've been right at 20 people, at 20 employees and a certain revenue number, but at a hundred that looks a little bit different. I'm curious about the folks that are the folks that you have seen navigate that full journey, or I'm assuming that you have some that have navigated the full journey. What kind of made them stand out in how they adapted?

Chris Dreyer:

That's a great question, Absolutely. Our COO started as a technician, as an onsite SEO specialist, and she continued to develop her skill set and made herself indispensable. Dan Kennedy says it's not the employer's job to make employees indispensable, it's their job, right? So a lot of times you could and experience is one of those words floated around to try to help with that authority perspective from GL Donnie's psychological triggers. Right, but someone can do the same task for seven years and never agree. So is experience really a value additive? Not necessarily Right at CO Alliance as an EOS certification, it's in the digital bureaus.

Chris Dreyer:

Mastermind has a coach, reads the books, practice the craft for years and brings Versus those that just kind of coach. They come in, check in, check out. And the reality is we get in this scenario where sometimes, as agency owners, your employees look for these raises at 3% to 5% to 7% or 10%. Right, we pay over market averages, just to be clear. But when those compound and you're looking at this employee year seven and they haven't improved, you start to question are they worth what I'm paying them? And that's the reality. That's the thing that people don't talk about. But yeah, it's the employee's responsibility to grow, it's not the employer's.

Justin Reinert:

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean there's definitely the ownership of the individual. It's like the to be super cliche, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Yeah, yeah, we have. You know, we have certification programs.

Chris Dreyer:

We have training reimbursements, we have things set aside, we have a training Slack channel. We mail out books to our staff, but like they don't, have to read them. You know, but we have books to our staff, but like they don't have to read them, you know, but we have, and, and it's just, and also, even if they just check the box and and do it, did they really consume the information or just recall it and take a test?

Justin Reinert:

yeah, yeah, they have to. They have to step up and grab the ring. The other thing that what you were saying made me think about is the 10,000 hour rule, which has been kind of debunked. Right, you know, you can do something for 10,000 hours, but do it poorly or incorrectly, and that just means you're going to continue to do it poorly or incorrectly. And so there's, you know, the concept of deliberate practice, which when we do deliberate practice for 10,000 hours, then absolutely we're going to excel, but that means we are, we are seeking feedback, we're taking on board that feedback where we're shifting and adapting based on what we're learning in the environment. So that's, you know, definite difference there, and it's good to hear that you're providing, you're providing the resources to, to your people, but absolutely it's up to them to step up and and do something with it, did you?

Chris Dreyer:

so I'm just peeking into a book called peak and I think that's it's on the deliberate, uh, being deliberate about improving.

Justin Reinert:

So it's really interesting that you referenced that deliberate phrasing yeah, yeah, what it's and I can't remember who coined that term of deliberate, deliberate practice, but it was basically the. The follow-up to the 10 000 hour rule is like no, there's a part of this that's missing, and it's to deliver practice yeah, I've always.

Chris Dreyer:

The other thing that bothers me clearly, gladwell is a genius, but I don't know. I like the people that practice the craft. You know, I don't know.

Justin Reinert:

So I like Gladwell because he creates conversations. I was just listening to actually I was listening to it was like an audible article about Gladwell, but it was from you, you know, a few years ago and just talking about the controversy of you know how he he takes research but then kind of, you know, makes it palatable for the general population but also distorts it at the same time. Um, but I think it's good to start some conversations. So I'm curious, you know, as you're hiring now and thinking about getting the right people on board, what are some of the things that you commonly are looking for that you know these are people who are going to help you continue to scale your business from where you're at today.

Chris Dreyer:

Really good. Question Number one do they align with our values? At least, I think that was fluff in the past, but we have three. We have excellence, execution and grit. Do they want to be the best? Do they have a history or past of being the best? Are there workhorses, and can they stick with it for long periods of time? For long periods of time? That's my values. I'm a super competitive person, so I look for those and I really synergize with those individuals.

Chris Dreyer:

There's a lot of different ways to discover those values based upon the questions you ask, the things that you. You can do personality assessments like over half of our employee base have high D on a DISC personality assessment, which is driving over half. You know we have 160 employees, so it's like people that like to move. Now it comes with the cons too, right, you break a lot of things and have to fix things and we move quick, right. But we also have we stole this from Bezos I don't know the name of Bezos' hiring committee, but it's essentially the same thing we have an Excellence Advocates Committee.

Chris Dreyer:

So before anyone can be hired and this is even before it gets to me so my second in command, my president, and I make the final hiring decisions. But before it even goes to us it goes through an excellence advocates program, which are my A players. These are my A's and M's, because A's identify A's, b's will identify C's or B's. These are my A's. They're like this is an A, that we like this person, but still that's that final check goes back to me and Steven to make the final decision. But we have an excellence advocates program. It's the questions you ask. We try to get them to do work before we make the hiring, whether it's subcontract work or some type of task. Because with ChatGPT and all the LLMs you can fake an interview really well. Hatchy, pt and all the LLMs, you can fake an interview really well. So we try to get them to implement and prove their technical expertise a bit before we put them in the role too.

Justin Reinert:

Yeah, that's good. Assessment of practical application is absolutely the best way to assess for skill, and sometimes it's not as accessible for some of those behavioral characteristics that we that we need to look at. I'm curious. You're looking for those values which, by the way I have to make a side comment love that you've made the transition of used to think this was BS and now I totally get it, and I think a lot of people have that experience that it's BS, because it is like they worked in an organization that put them on the wall but didn't live them.

Justin Reinert:

And when an organization is not living in alignment with its values, compared to once you're an executive like yourself who's trying to create an aligned culture and you're like, oh, actually, if I demonstrate these values, I have a set of leaders that demonstrate these values, then everybody else falls in line. That just means we can all run so much faster together. So love that you made that pivot. I'm curious how you. It's hard to give someone a project and have them demonstrate those kind of more behavioral competencies. So how do you assess for that?

Chris Dreyer:

Well, every employee at the KPI. The KPIs are non-subjective, and so that can kind of visually show in a simple manner if someone's not producing. It could be an output based upon content written. It could be a number of links created from a link building specialist. It could be a number of links created from a link building specialist. It could be a number of things, right, there's some that are very challenging to isolate like that.

Chris Dreyer:

So you can look at utilization rate, which I don't love and also we got to be cognizant of. Don't want to penalize high performers, right, unlike the utilization rate, right. Just because they can do more in a shorter amount of period shouldn't penalize them and blow them up more without additional compensation and rewards for their expertise that they've created KPIs. I'll tell you the. When I see somebody that's incongruent, it's stressful on me, like it naturally doesn't align and it stresses my other team members out. People don't move with a sense of urgency, right. They kind of quit and they need guided and they don't solve problems, right. You like the opposite of the core values, right, it's the opposite of execution. It's the opposite of great People are just okay with mediocre work, web designs, not doing QA, not doing UX. So it's incongruent and those things kind of naturally occur. But at the core we do our best with KPIs and try to simplify down that Aiden.

Justin Reinert:

Yeah, struggle with is when you've probably made this, made gone past this a long time ago and or it may come back sometimes to haunt you, but that that the need for delegation and letting go of things to empower your people and get things done. And maybe, at the size you're at, you are 100% like go, go, go, everybody's great, or maybe there's some things you're holding on. I'm curious, what does that look like for you, either in the past or today?

Chris Dreyer:

I'm going to rephrase it for a question, and I'm sure you've heard this as signal versus noise. Have you heard of this Right?

Justin Reinert:

Okay.

Chris Dreyer:

So they are very clear. The first one is if you find yourself procrastinating. This is kind of a who, a who. Another question If you find yourself procrastinating, maybe you shouldn't be doing it, maybe someone else should be Right. The other thing is if so, that's a signal. Procrastination is a signal. The other, and so that's of the individual self. The other, and so that's of the individual self.

Chris Dreyer:

The other signal is if you find yourself not being able to delegate to an individual because of trust, that's a signal. And maybe you don't have the right person. So both of these are who type of scenarios, but both of these signals allow you to delegate better. But both of these signals allow you to delegate better. And so I think there's a lot of signals and noise throughout the entire organization, delivery, execution. But I think those two you find yourself procrastinating Is it really worth doing? On the Eisenhower matrix, do you? Should someone else be doing it right? And then the other thing is is if you find yourself not being able to delegate, even if you have the processes and training, then maybe you have the wrong person on the receiving end.

Justin Reinert:

I like those two things as signals the procrastination or the lack of trust.

Chris Dreyer:

I'm curious. What are some examples of noise in that scenario? The first one on the procrastination. Maybe it's something that doesn't move, maybe it isn't a high priority, right, so maybe it doesn't really move the needle and so that's. That's one noise is not fulfilling the mission, and if the individual can't receive a task to fulfill the mission, their noise, it's just very clear. So I think this is another one of those that, plus years in business, I didn't truly appreciate, and I'll give you a simple example of this. This is very nuanced, but it's very specific to me. It's like okay, we need to establish these goals and outcomes for the future. They need to be very clear For long-term goals, not short-term goals, because the decisions you make to achieve them and I know this sounds very simple and vague, but I'll get to my point Change based upon the goal, okay. So I'll give you an example from my review. If I'm going to help all law firms, then I need to expand my SDR, my outbound team, to all these different areas. I need to create product roadmaps, I need to, you know, go to every conference, et cetera. But if I just want to help personal injury attorneys, then I go to where they're congregating. I'm only creating products and services specifically for them. Every outcome has different deviations of like little milestones on the way there.

Chris Dreyer:

Me, if I was going to go after all legal, I would do a legal podcast network. If I'm going to go after just personal injury, I can't do just a podcast network. There's not enough base there. I have to hit multiple channels. I have to hit Morning Brew style newsletter. I got to get the conferences. I got to do a monthly webinar. I got to get that flywheel going. It all kind of powers itself. But if I'm going after a big TAM, a legal podcast network would certainly have enough TAM for distribution to reach those members. But that's slightly nuanced but it gets you thinking differently about how to achieve objective in the best manner.

Justin Reinert:

So what's the future for rankings Like what, what's, what are the next few years look like? Ah, that really good question.

Chris Dreyer:

My right now. I always kind of put this in quadrant for the Vala from a leverage leverage perspective, labor capital, um, and then you get code and then media right. So media, we're going to continue to expand, conference our webinars, our retreats. Podcasts we have three podcasts From a labor perspective continue to enhance that with near shore training, hiring the aid players. A code perspective, leading more into LLMs and automation and tech, tech enablement. And then on the capital side, for me there's a monopoly in the PI space which is an Esquire bank. So just transparently, I'm dollar cost averaging until I have enough shares to get a board seat. So that's kind of how I'm attacking this. But it's a longer term play. But you got to know what you want for the outcome.

Justin Reinert:

Well, it sounds like you have some very detailed plans that have thought through exactly where you want to go, so it's no wonder, eight years, inc 5000.

Chris Dreyer:

Yeah, I hate to sound like Grant Cardone, but a lot of people they set these goals and then they get to a pivotal moment of stress and pain and some people will lower their standards, lower the goal as opposed to doing more quantitative actions to ensure its success. So when we set a goal, it's going to be hit or we're going to die Like it's. We're going to do whatever it takes to hit it and that's what goals are for, in my opinion.

Justin Reinert:

Yeah, I love that laser focus. Well, chris, thank you so much for joining me. If folks want to reach out and get in touch with you, what's the best way to do so?

Chris Dreyer:

Yeah, best way to connect with me on socials LinkedIn just shoot me a message. You can email me. You can get to chris at rankingsio.

Justin Reinert:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Chris.

Chris Dreyer:

Thanks, justin, thanks for having me.