Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Thousands of military veterans across the globe serve in the legal field. The purpose of this podcast is to create a community to leverage that network to help each other navigate our careers in the legal field. Collectively, the military veterans legal community has an enormous amount of experience and knowledge which can be used to help find positions for veterans in the legal field, help veterans grow their legal practices, and help us all serve our communities.
Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Will Obringer: From Waiting Tables to Advising on Nuclear Issues
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Will is transitioning from a 20-year career in the Army JAG Corps that included deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and culminated in his service as the Staff Judge Advocate of Fort Meade, the home of the NSA and U.S. Cyber Command. Listen in to learn how Will is leveraging opportunities available to veterans as they retire, including the Military Corporate Assistance Program, in which a NASCAR Deputy General Counsel is advising Will on his upcoming move to private practice. Will is looking for roles in privacy and cybersecurity in the D.C. area, so please reach out to him with advice and leads. Shout out to my colleague Jacqueline Pavlicek for joining us to share her insights into privacy law practice!
From the civil and criminal defense team at Collins and Lacey Law Firm in South Carolina, this is the Military Veterans in Law Podcast with your host, Jared Fussnecker.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Jared Fussnicker. Joining me today is Will Obringer. Will is currently preparing to retire from a 20-year career in the Army Jag Corps and transition into private practice. I got to know Will a few years ago when I mobilized as a special victim prosecutor at Fort Jackson here in Columbia, and Will was the deputy staff judge advocate, second in charge of an office of 25 attorneys and support staff. Will's career culminated with him serving as the staff judge advocate of the JAG office at Fort Meade, Maryland, the home of the National Security Agency and U.S. Cyber Command, where he was responsible for an office of over 30 attorneys and support staff. Welcome to the show, Will. Hey Jared, thanks a lot for having me. And uh yeah, good to see you. Wow. Like um, you know, just uh got out of responsibility yesterday, is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I was relieved of my duties by my successor yesterday and uh very happy to uh to be here to talk about it. And when we say relieved, you went out in a good red note. High-fived, we high-fived each other, and um I I took my stuff and and happily went out of the went out home. So I'm getting ready to retire now.
SPEAKER_03Not the type of uh relief of an officer where they're scurried to the side and like No, the relief in place is it ripped.
SPEAKER_02We we ripped out yesterday. So it's great.
SPEAKER_03I mean, you're in this amazing space where I I guess for you, it's um you've got a handful of months now where you're getting ready to make your transition and you officially retire in February, correct?
SPEAKER_02I do. February 1st is my retirement date. Um the JAG Corps has been very generous, not assigned me assigning me any duties right now. So they told me to retire. That is their my duty. So I have uh army mandated classes, I have uh VA appointments, uh all lined up, getting ready to do all the mandatory retirement-ish stuff. And I've started some of it, and um it's it's a process. It really is a process. And for those of us leaving the military with some time to think about it, uh, I I really encourage to think hard and treat it like a process because uh at the end of the day, we're gonna be a lot different. Everything is gonna be different, uh, but we're still gonna need to continue on with our lives. And my taking advantage good.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was just saying uh my understanding is that it's it'll be November when you start your terminal leave, right? Yes. So the process that you're talking about now, um, you've got a few months to get through your VA medical appointments and the other transitioning that you have to do. And now you're really starting to think about what's your next career after the Jag Corps.
SPEAKER_02That's absolutely right. And uh it's it has taken me a year. Uh I I want to say it was almost a year ago, maybe a little bit more when I really made the decision that I think I'm gonna retire. Um, I've I talked to people, I uh you know, it talked to people I knew throughout my career, not just seniors, um, but junior people that I know. And we can talk about that in the second half uh of the the discussion, but it was really a thoughtful process. Like I didn't just wake up one morning and say, I'm out of here. I kind of started to weigh the pros and cons financially, family, uh just where I was in my career and what I wanted to accomplish. And, you know, at the end of the day, this was a decision that me and my family made together.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, congratulations. I mean, the fact that you and your family made it through a 20-year career that included deployments to Iraq, Afghanistan, you know, I looked at your resume. I think you've been to at least 10 different duty stations, you know, not including the the stops at the JAG school for the LLM program and Command and General Staff College. Um, really a great family effort to get you all uh this far. And you've had quite the distinguished career. So I'm so glad to have you on the show today. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks a lot, Jared. Yeah, it has been it has been a family travel. Um, and that's really at the end of the day. And I remember this and um way back at the beginning of my career, um, I was in Iraq and uh I was doing an article six, we were doing an article six visit for then General Black, T Jag, first lieutenant general of the Army, Jag Corps. Um, and I got my escort duty. I escorted him for about 150 feet from my office all the way to the ad law office in Baghdad, Iraq. And uh I I remember specifically him talking about you know where I was gonna go and what to do. And he said, every time you make that discussion, the decision to stay in to PCS, make sure it's what you and your family want to do. And it should be a discussion. It shouldn't be an automatic, like, yep, what's next? Let's go. You have to make that decision. And and this time it was a decision for us to hang up the boots, as they say, and uh go out when I want to go out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, let's rewind the tape for a minute and like take you back to how you very first came into the military. So you grew up in South Jersey, right? Yeah, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, right across from uh Philadelphia. Does that make you a Phil's and Eagles and Sixers? Absolutely. Not yes, yes, all day long. And then you you went undergrad to American University, right, in D.C.
SPEAKER_02Yes, uh, yep, where I would I was uh anything but uh an academic stellar. I uh I I survived uh four years of college in in DC.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, this I stayed there before I started law school, I interned for a senator and I stayed on campus at American University, and I would take the train into downtown. And I mean, I can see, you know, there's plenty of distractions there in DC. There's you know a lot of fun going on besides uh besides the schooling.
SPEAKER_02That's actually incredibly funny because my brother did a very similar program. I worked at the P there was a pizza restaurant right in Tinley Town called Armont, uh, and I worked there uh for my junior, senior years of uh college. I met some of the best people in my life there. Uh so it was uh so I know exactly the program you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Oh, cool. Yes. And you know, like that just had a little throwback to me, like now arriving in Tinley Town, and then like the huge steps to get out of the subway there. And so you get through American, and then what were you kind of thinking at that point in time that you were interested in doing?
SPEAKER_02I had no idea. I honestly had no idea. My uh I'd graduated, that was the goal. Um I my brother's a year younger than me, and he bet me that I he couldn't he would graduate before me. So I had spite uh to graduate on time. So I did that. Um and then I didn't know what I wanted to do. Uh I really had no clue. So I stayed in DC and I started waiting tables. I continued waiting tables, and I was uh waiting tables for about three years um at the old Abbott Grill, is where I kind of finished up my career downtown.
SPEAKER_03There's lots of uh high-profile folks spotted there regularly, right?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yes. I I I definitely waited on the speaker of the house, uh Denny Hassard at the time. Um, I remember Laura Bush would walk over with her friends. Um the Muhammad Ali was there. I never waited on Muhammad Ali. Clinton came in once. That was unbelievable seeing him. Tom Cruise, um, there's a great I have a great story about Prince, even though I didn't wait on Prince, but he was came by. Like I it's just one of those places that people in DC would come to. Um, and then at the time in the early 2000s, late you know, late 90s, you could get two burgers and a couple of beers for about$24. Uh, not anymore.
SPEAKER_03That'd be an amazing deal now for sure. So your waiting tables, and then you know what's ironic about that is like I just saw something on LinkedIn, it was a quite successful attorney that was talking about more so than grades and resume, he is impressed by folks that have been have done jobs like bartending and waiting tables because it requires so much interaction with the public and it allows a person to relate to a jury. So I, you know, I I saw that and I was I was thinking, well, you know, like when my boys get of age, uh, you know, like that's that's a a good job for them to prep them for later on in life.
SPEAKER_02I I agree more so than anything else. There was nothing harder to do than to placate a couple of intoxicated businessmen whose food is laid in the kitchen, right? Or or reading the customers. Uh, you know, in a place like the Ebbett where you had business people come in, you know, the uh Kirkland and Ellis is right above us, so Kirkland attorneys are down all the time. You have those, and you have your tourists, you have your uh you know, people coming in, uh, you know, just your regulars all day long. And reading people is really a critical skill. And I remember uh you know, reading the businessman. They don't want to chat with the waiter, they want their food out on time, they want their check presented quickly, they want to get they want to, they just want they don't want to think about it. Whereas tour tourists want to know, hey, where do I go? Who have you seen? They want all this stuff, and so you can local flavor play.
SPEAKER_03They want to hear the print story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you you play it up, right? You absolutely play it up, and you have to know your clients, right? That's I mean, that's so what you so I that was a skill that I learned, and it it has helped me throughout my career because I could talk to people and read them. Like, what were they really looking for?
SPEAKER_03I I kind of I want to hear the print story now.
SPEAKER_02I I can tell you the print story. So, I mean it's it's actually really funny. So he we have a there's a place called the cabinet room in the basement of the old Epic Grill, um, and you can reserve it. It's open today to reserve. Uh and he came down and he was had a concert or something. So he's downstairs and he's with his his entourage of about five or six, maybe seven people, and they're having lunch, and the waiter who's waiting on him is sitting there and he's sitting there at the bar watching them. Um and Prince leans over to his um one of his people, and people person walks up to the waiter and says, Um, if you would like to join us, you can. Um, but it might he doesn't want you just sitting there watching us. No, so it's like yeah, so it's just like, do you want to join us? And he's like, No, thank you. I will step out.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Oh, I would I mean, you've got to take that invite. I mean, how often do you get invited to dinner with with Prince? I mean, now granted, it's for being his stalkerish behavior, but still. Yeah, I know it's just but that was a very interesting, like just small interaction there. Um hey, good on Prince for for being friendly, at least. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, so I waited tables um until he was having a great time in DC and loved it. Yeah, don't want it to end.
SPEAKER_02No, I rode my bike everywhere. I made you know a good week. I'd make like five, six hundred dollars. That was great. I was I was living the life. Um and uh then 9-11 happened. So I was downtown DC on that beautiful Tuesday morning, and um and shortly thereafter, after you know, they shut down the streets, the secret service comes in, kicks us all out. Um business dried up where you were because business dried up, business dried up, and so I had to make a decision real fast. I was like, I need to get my life in order. So September 11th, beginning of September, um, I take a six-week LSAT course that was offered by the Department of Agriculture downtown DC, and I take the LSATs November 1st. And so that's 2001, 2002. I enter Widener Law School. Uh one of 13 law schools I applied to. Um, the only one that accepted me.
SPEAKER_03But hey, but you got in. So that's right. That's right. So you're saying there's a chance.
SPEAKER_02So there is that's exactly what it was. And and I took it that way. I took it as a uh I entered law school and I was about 25. Uh so I was a touch older than the rest of the students, and I made it a job. And I took it like and I took it seriously. Um, and I worked hard, I you know, went to class, I did my readings, I I focused on I I went to the gym. Like I it was a nine to five job, maybe nine to six job for me, and I and I did really well. I eventually graduated cum laud and did all the fun things in law school.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it sounds like you know, your undergrad experience at American and then waiting, you were just making the most out of you know being a young adult, having a good time, but then it sounds like 9-11 was a wake-up moment for you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely, 100% was. And so as I'm second year getting into my third year, I'm like, okay, what am I gonna do now? Now you have to start being realistic with a law degree. Uh, where do I want to live? Which bars do I want to take, all that stuff. And and I remember I signed up for both the Navy Jag and the uh Army Jags, the interviews that were there. Um, I missed my Navy Jag appointment, thankfully, probably. Um, but I meant to the Army Jag program, and I remember sitting across from the FSO who's wearing his Army greens at the time, and uh he had an airborne air assault badge on, and I was like talking to him, and you know, they're asking all the questions. I go, wait, so you can go to like airborne school as a JAG? Uh you can do all those things like, oh yeah, absolutely. And I was like, Oh, that sounds cool.
SPEAKER_03So, how did the military even get on your radar though?
SPEAKER_02I'd I had a I had been in junior OTC as a kid, as a cadet in uh high school. I flirted with joining the Marine Corps out of college, um, you know, but it just it always had something in there for me to to join the military, but it wasn't it was never the right thing or the right time. And so when the Jag Corps that was there, and I remember talking to the FSO and I did my research, um, I was like, wow, this is this is kind of what I want to do. Because I wasn't ready to settle down. I wasn't ready to, I was from South Jersey, I didn't want to work in Philly. I was I I just didn't want that life yet. Um, and so I thought this was a great opportunity to go to places.
SPEAKER_03You're like, you know what I would like is maybe if I could see 10 to 12 different places over the next 20 years and PCS every two years, you know. Sure.
SPEAKER_02Let's do all they don't tell you that in the recruiting videos. Um but it did, it worked out. And and they they sent me to Fort Hood, Texas, which uh was not my first choice, but it was also the best thing that could have ever happened to me in my life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you come out of law school in 2005 in a really hot time, and it's I guess as a captain, you were deployed to Iraq out of Fort Hood, and then you also later deployed to Afghanistan out of Fort Stewart, is that right? Right.
SPEAKER_02So I and so you talked about a hot time. So for those of us who you my OBC class, the basic course, I'm gonna try to talk non-military terms here. Um we're getting trained up, and I remember now retired Brigadier General Holly Cook came and she pulled 14 of us. There was 14 at the my basic course that were going to Fort Hood. And I remember sitting there on there at the fifth floor of the com at the Jive School, and she says, You're deploying. Yeah, she didn't tell us when or how, but she was basically like be prepared to deploy. Um, and for me, it was uh I got to Fort Hood in April of 2006, and I deployed in November of 2007 for 15 months. So and which brigade was that with? It was four ID division headquarters.
SPEAKER_03Okay, with the division, gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it was a fantastic deployment. We were in Baghdad for 15 months, massive change in the theater. Uh, it was professionally incredibly rewarding. I had friends that are still in, you know, just friends still to this till this day that are part of that deployment crew.
SPEAKER_03Well, and you were doing operational law downrange.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I did. I started off as an operational law attorney, um, doing targeting, doing planning, uh, and then I eventually I took over as the chief of operational law uh for multi-division, multinational division Baghdad. As you know, 2008 the UN Security Council resolution expired. So we were doing dealing with that as we turned into a coalition force under inviting being invited by the uh Iraqi government. So it was a massive change in like authorities and how we were going to act uh in in Iraq at that time. So that was a lot of work.
SPEAKER_03For those out there that are unfamiliar with targeting, um, it's basically JAGs advising military commanders on operations um concerning who can be targeted in a combat zone and also how they can be targeted to ensure that operations comply with the laws of war and the rules of engagement that we're using downrange. So, you know, Will being in Iraq in 2006 and there's a transition in governmental authority, so there's some negotiating there with the Iraqis at that point in time as to the rules of engagement, I take it.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. There was rules of engagement, it was who could be detained. That was one of the major issues was understanding under the Security Council resolution, under an international law, we we were allowed to detain, you know, individuals and hold them and interrogate them. Uh after we took over, after the Iraqi government assumed authority, we had to do that with their consent. So there was all kinds of rules for governing how we could assist the Iraqi government. That was the move. It was like, we're not combat operations, we're assisting the Iraqi government in you know stopping this insurgency that was there. So it was a challenge.
SPEAKER_03When I was in Afghanistan, I was there with the ISAF Joint Command headquarters. So that was, you know, Fifth Corps was also the NATO headquarters, um, the three-star command at the time. And it within our office, it was truly a NATO office. We had a Brit, we had a French officer at one point in time, a Spanish officer, an Italian officer. And, you know, it's not only coordinating your own country's rules of engagement, it's also coordinating with the Allies to determine, hey, who can go do this mission? Uh, because because uh some countries have caveats and say, well, we're not doing certain types of missions. And so in a multinational setting, it really makes it challenging.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And that's something I learned over my career. The language, the language is different between even in in their service. Um, you know, back Iraq, and especially in 2008, 2007, was all US forces. I mean, the British were down south, but there was some Poles, some Georgians, but there wasn't a lot of it wasn't like Afghanistan, which was a NATO mission, right? So you had your NATO authorities. I learned later learned that when I went to Afghanistan. But it's a challenge. Um, and it's a challenge translating what you want to convey to your partners.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, what you were doing in operational law and national security law, that's what a lot of folks get excited about and motivates them to come into the Jag Corps because you're doing really cutting-edge, important uh things that have uh literally uh lot impacts on people's lives downrange. Um and then the other area that I think you know tends to excite people when they're coming into the Jag Corps is being in the courtroom. And that's what you went and did next, right? You went to Alaska Defense Council.
SPEAKER_02I did. I I went to Alaska. So I I um I came out of Iraq and I remember sitting there in uh October of 2008. My deputy, uh, the great uh Lance Hamilton uh comes to me and goes, Hey, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, I got to work with him at Fort Knox. He's amazing.
SPEAKER_02So Lance comes to me and goes, okay, hey, Will, we got you. We know you're getting married when you get home. Um we're gonna see we want you to do trial work because I hadn't I'd been in three years when I get back, uh, and I wouldn't have done any military justice.
SPEAKER_03And um I have a quick caveat. I I got to work with Lance uh Hamilton in Germany, and I got to work with Lance Turlington at Fort Knox.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes, yes. Two different lances.
SPEAKER_03Two great, two great lances.
SPEAKER_02Um and so I remember him saying, Okay, we're gonna they you're gonna go to defense council, which is great. That's an awesome part of my career. Um, but you were going to Alaska. I'm like, cool. Because my wife and I were like, we get we're gonna get married. We don't want to be around our families, we want to have that time for ourselves.
SPEAKER_03So I guess I opened the-far enough away from the family. Where else could I go? How about Alaska?
SPEAKER_02So so the best part was this. I opened the so at the time the the directory, the Jagor directory, which has all the listings of names and assignments of all judge advocates, army judge advocates across the world. And I open it up and I go to Alaska and I see, oh, there's defense counsel, there's two in Anchorage, and there's one in Fairbanks. And and the one of each is opening up. The Fairbanks and uh Anchorage are opening up. And I and I tell my wife, I go, Case, they're gonna send us to Anchorage. There's no way they're gonna send a brand new defense counsel who has never tried a case to Anchorage or to Fairbanks by be by themselves in an office of one. And I suspect the Army said, Hold my beer. That's correct. And so we spent, we've got assigned to Fairbanks Alaska uh as a defense counsel, which was unbelievable. Um, it was a an incredible two-year career of trials nonstop.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so you got a bunch of litigation experience there, and then you later went to Fort Leavenworth as a chief of military justice, a supervisory prosecutor, and got a lot more litigation experience there. And and it appears like throughout the course of your career, you were kind of moving between litigation and then also the supervisory roles that also ultimately led you to becoming the the lead attorney, the head attorney, uh, the staff judge advocate at Fort Meade. Um, one thing that I thought was very interesting is that you worked at the Pentagon, um and one of your responsibilities there was serving as a legal advisor on Army nuclear initiatives. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So that that is okay. So after many of like fun like Army stands. Jobs, right? So I go from defense counsel, brigade judge advocate, deploy JAG School, Chief of Justice, CGSC, brigade judge advocate out of combat brigade, which was highlight my favorite job of all time. So anybody asked that's what it was. And I'm getting ready and I'm talking and I go, where are they gonna send me? And they say, we're gonna send you to the office of general counsel in the Pentagon. We want you to get brought in. I was a senior major, I was gonna get promoted, you know, the tea leaves are that I was gonna get promoted. But now it's time for you to see what the army, big A army in Washington, DC, is like. I'm like, okay. So they sent me to the office of the general counsel, and there I meet some wonderful human beings, wonderful attorneys who are like the stall, the bulwark of the the the civilian army practice in the general counsel's office. Um and I work for Mr. Craig Schmouter. So in that niche, um, in the in the energy installation is energy, and we have energy process programs across the army. And they said, hey, we have this program that we want to start with dealing with small mobile nuclear reactors. And this is 2019. You can read about them, they're all over the internet. They uh the Department of Energy is really working on them, but the Army and DARPA was uh kind of looking at that.
SPEAKER_03And I was so the small mobile nuclear reactors, I assume this is energy-based or weapons-based?
SPEAKER_02Energy-based. Basically, so you can load a nuclear reactor on a connex and fly it into wherever and basically power a core headquarters without having to truck in tons of diesel fuel. Um, imagine a imagine just being able to drop it, drop a core like a container on a C17 and plug in main power, and you're powered up, and you don't have the logistics trail um that that you do now. Wow, and there's a major issue. And it's still yeah, no, they have not failed it yet. You can read about them. There were it's a really neat the the um INL out in Idaho does a lot of work on them still. Um, they are the ones building them, testing them, and the goal, I think, is to have a uh a reactor that is part of the Army program. I I've left it since then. One of the issues is because I I I went down to the naval yard while I was there, and I was talking to the Navy, who's run nuclear reactors for 70 years, and you know, they have a whole separate personnel branch that just deals with nuclear personnel. They have um attorneys who focus on nuclear energy. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, I it is it is a fascinating niche within a niche, and I was sitting there like learning as I was advising and kind of understanding what is the army going to need if we set up a program where we are we have a cadre of like of nuclear reactors that we have to man, equip, be able to train on and use, what do we need as an army uh to uh to do that?
SPEAKER_03Well, and you know, a tough thing here also is you know, when you're preparing to field it, soldiers have to be able to use it. So, you know, like MREs that are meals ready to eat, where you open the pouch and you place, you know, put some water in it, and the the packet, you know, does its thing where it heats up and you know you got the directions on it that says, you know, place on rock or something on the back of the box. I'm just imagining like these uh nuclear uh fueled batteries, you know, like they're they're gonna have to have like these very basic instructions, you know, place nuclear packet on rock or something.
SPEAKER_02Well, I it's a big as a conic, so I think you know you're you have to dig it in. But it's like just understanding the the process and creating a personnel branch. And and the question is like, can this be something the contractors do? Or is this something that is only uh a is this a unique military application? And the Navy believes it is. This is only something because as they obviously those are on aircraft carriers, um, but it's only something that the so it's it's an interesting like question. Is this something that can be civilianized? Is this something that should be civilianized? Who advises on nuclear programs? Who like all these issues arise um just like overflight?
SPEAKER_03You know, I I felt kind of silly even asking the question is this fielded yet? But the pace of technological change right now is breakneck. Um, so you you never know. Um, and so the past two years, could you explain to folks like what your role was at Fort Meade and kind of like the leadership experience that you had there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So I I was lucky enough to be assigned as an SJA. Um kind of the ultimate, the end of your career, the ultimate job. You are tasked by the T by T Jag to lead an office. And uh it's the culmination of a career, right? It's everything I learned um advising commanders, um, managing soldiers, managing civilians is not something that we in the green suitor world really do well until you get more senior. But I had more civilian attorneys than I had uh military attorneys. And it has been it was a fantastic opportunity to be the leader. To when people ask me a question or I set policy for the office, like I'm not doing the work, I'm not I'm not litigating the case, but I'm setting direction and I'm making sure that those young captains are um thinking through cases the way I would and instilling them. And how how do you get to the point where you are hands off, but you are in the world.
SPEAKER_03What's amazing right now is Will's cat just came into the picture on his side. I'm sitting here watching. I'm trying, I'm trying to cat is trying to like walk across his table, right? As Will is saying, hands off. Sorry, cat.
SPEAKER_02The the two years of leading attorneys and I I I I understand now when I look back at some of the legendary judge advocates that I served with, like Tanya Martin and Mark Kremlin and uh Rusty Parsons, just like great human beings, the pride that they had in their captains when they won a case, when they stood up for the what was right uh to their commander, when they were able to subtly advise to do something that they knew was right. Um, that's the pride you get. And that's just a culmination of a lifetime uh career experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's funny as you get older and a little bit sappier about these things, right? It's like, you know, just all the things that you've we've just had beat over our head over the years about the importance of looking out for others and you know, the character values that are beat into us on a daily basis, where it's like, oh, okay, I see why they've been emphasizing this for so long. And I mean, and look at you, man, like the fun times guy in DC waiting tables, and it, you know, the army, what they've invested in all of us, and what you know, they can what can come from it. Because you were you were there having a good time until 9-11, and then you said, okay, I'm a smart guy. I need to figure out what I'm gonna do next. And then you got yourself through law school, and then the army, you know, you did officer basic course, that training. Um, we all get to go through short courses along the way, depending on our jobs, to teach us about litigation or national security issues. You go back to the JAG school for a year a year to get your LLM in military law, where you focused on international law there. You know, later on you're chosen for commanded general staff college, which isn't just for JAGs, that's for officers of all branches. Um, and so, you know, when you look back on your career, I think later on a lot of us are like, wow, it's amazing what has been invested in us um, you know, to try to turn us all into good leaders, good lawyers.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And you don't I don't realize it, I didn't realize it until much later when I saw like people getting chances. And I was like, why do you why are we giving this guy a chance? Because they will turn out. Like, if you I'm surprised at some of the people, I saw people that were just like, oh man, not gonna make it, not gonna cut it. And a leader stepped in and helped them clear that hurdle. And now you're like, oh, that guy's awesome. That guy's the best. Like that the either you just grow into the job because you're forced to. And some people are able to step up, and it's great to watch them just excel beyond what you even thought they could do, and just take the reins, and then now they're leaders of young captains and in offices. I'm just shocked. It's it's something that like I look back and I go, there's no way that yes, that that happy fun loyal uh waiter in DC is now um a soon-to-be-retired lieutenant colonel with a as an attorney for 20 years. Uh, it's unbelievable. Um, but it's it's great, it's been a great career. I I would not change anything because I won all my cases as a defense attorney. So I definitely have nothing to uh to ever uh to be upset about or to take back.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, when we had Trish Birdsell on here last week, you know, she's kind of like on the other side of the transition now. She retired last year, and she was talking about how much it has surprised her being in-house at T-Mobile now, that her experiences as a brigade judge advocate and a staff judge advocate advising commanders, that she's used to advising tough clients on a variety of issues and how well that's transitioned. What has your conversation been like with your your NASCAR mentor uh as far as that's concerned?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I go, I so that was one of the first ones like, so who's your client? Um, you know, you look at NASCAR, you watch on on the weekends or you go to a race and you're thinking, oh, it's the cars, it's the drivers, and no, no, no, it's it's the NASCAR, they only have an office of 13 attorneys in-house counsel for NASCAR. It's like, oh no, it's a family business, and we have different areas, but they advise on the branding of NASCAR and using the NASCAR, the data that they collect for privacy issues, dealing protecting the their clients' privacies, protecting all those things. So it's understanding it was like, oh, so that's your client. I go, so who does who assumes risk? Like that was a big question I had because I didn't, you know, in the military, the commander owns risk. We as lawyers advise on risk, and the commander owns risk. And I asked her that, and she was like, that's a great question because some companies, the lawyers are the risk managers. Um, depending on the organization, sometimes it's uh the directors or the CEO, whomever, but it's depends on the company and in different corporate environments matter. Uh I've asked about things about like interviewing and all those things that you don't do as a judge advocate because you don't have to interview if you're a job and you can you you put your list in the PPTO or and they'll send you off to where you go. Uh so I haven't interviewed in 20 years.
SPEAKER_03Well, and this is just a great opportunity to kind of informally be able to speak to somebody who's in a the type of role where you would like to land just to learn the lingo and you know how to have a normal conversation when you're used to being, you know, within the military culture and speaking to commanders in a certain way. And, you know, now you're going to make the transition to an interview. And it's kind of like every month you're getting a little mini practice, you know, going into your job search to help you translate what you've been doing in the Jag Corps to what you can do on the outside. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And it was things like I go, do you bring she she's on LinkedIn a lot, she does some really great stuff in the Charlotte area. And I asked her, do you have to brand yourself? Like, is that something as important for you? Is that something for your your business? NASCAR wants you to do. And she's like, no, that's what I want to do, but you know, I'm also representing NASCAR. So understanding that difference, right? Like uh there's plenty of people who are out there selling their name on for good reasons um to be to you know increase their visibility to generate clientele. There's nothing wrong with that. Increase the visibility of their their clients, their um their business. And then I'm like, well, is that required? And she's like, no, that is not a requirement. Some places it might be. And just understanding that difference. Like, I don't I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03Um so where you were a few months ago to now, like where you are now, just you know, talking through her, what's like a couple of the best nuggets that have kind of like changed your perspective as you're getting ready to go out on the job market?
SPEAKER_02I think the most important thing is translating what we do as judge advocates to civilian practice. There is a translator, they can actually give it to you at uh during the TAP programs. Um, but but being able to communicate a skill, like you talk, you did a great chair. And I don't even put it in myself. It's like, oh, Will, you've litigated these matters. I don't think of myself as a litigator, but we have. I've litigated my whole career.
SPEAKER_03And uh being able to communicate that. Um it's funny, like me being kind of like on the other side, if you will, now, you know, looking back, it's it's much easier, right? To like, okay, I know what I do on a regular daily basis now, and I know what I did on a daily basis five years ago, and how the similarities are, right? Um, and so you know, like you you told me uh before we went on the show that she even helped you revise your resume. And it's like, oh wow, this this looks well done here. So, like, I mean, what a great starting point.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely was. I uh I again I as I go back to this whole thing, it's a process. Retirement's a process for the for military personnel. Transition out is a process. Um, and I started last year and I went to a job for Jags. That's a that's a well-known um transition program that's been going on for a number of years, and they had a resume review opportunity. So I sent my resume in, I talked to the person, and I got covered in red ink. I got something dripping black back in red ink, and I was like, oh boy, I have work to do. Um, so so with Nichelle's help, it it's it's I think helped character craft mine. And then as you go through tap, and and people scoff, I think we as attorneys tend to scoff at standardized army training um because it doesn't apply, or we think we know what we're talking about. Uh there was some really good nuggets in there. I was like crafting a resume. You don't just have a run one resume, you have to have your tailored resume. And especially if you're going into large corporate entities, they are running those resumes through AI and they're pulling out information. There's it's not you have to work to get a job. You can't just like fire stuff off.
SPEAKER_03Right. I mean, you're interested in you know doing privacy or cybersecurity law either in-house or with a firm, so I could also see potentially how you know you would sh, you know, slight subtly shape the the resume depending on you know who it is that you're gonna go apply for. They don't actually tell you to subtly shape it. They say shape it.
SPEAKER_02Like it is not a subtle thing. It's an interesting, it's just a and I heard you talk to Trish about this, and I think it's really important. It's we're not good at self-promotion. Um, I uh you know, we are not as judge advocates and as military personnel, we're not good at as you said in the protest, being a spotlight ranger. That's a bad, that's a bad thing. But you have to be a spotlight ranger to get hired.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that's what they're telling you.
SPEAKER_02They can't hire you if they don't know you're out there, right? That's exactly right. And and it's okay to say, I look at all these great things I've done, and this is how my you know, leading an office of 29 attorneys can help you. I know I'm not gonna be the general counsel of a that's that's ridiculous. But what I can be is I can come in as a a counsel, a senior counsel, manage a small team, and you can see what I've done as I'm learning your niche uh business. And so that's one of the things that I've I'm kind of I understand that. Um, I hope it translates when I start interviewing. And and it's also like why I went into the privacy that I'm taking these courses because I I've seen and that if you don't have the certifications, they're not gonna look at you. You have to be certified to kind of uh at least get in the door.
SPEAKER_03And so what experiences do you have in the military that directly translate to being a privacy law attorney in private practice?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, we all deal with HIPAA. As much as we don't think we do, we do. We we have we are exposed to medical records uh all the time in uh in medical and mental health records in litigation. Constantly. Constantly. And in managing that the managing that information constantly. Unless you're defense counsel and you're like, ah shucks. I got uh the privacy act in FOIA. We deal with those laws all the time. Now, the consequence and the consequence of a disclosure, if you're a soldier, you accidentally or maybe even intentionally disclose somebody's private information of counseling, you know, bad bad on you, maybe uh if it's very severe Article 15, or if an officer may be a reprimand, especially if you're doing it intentionally.
SPEAKER_03Unless we have a bradley manning type situation. Yes, intentional exposure of classified deformation.
SPEAKER_02But like again, the consequences are usually individual, right? Uh, but in the private sector, you know, you're subject to investigation by Federal Trade Commission or by State's Attorneys General, and there's a financial loss. So that's the translation. It's like, hey, how do I what if we're doing this, if I'm advising you to on processes and procedures and uh practices, we do that all the time in the army. Um, good practices, good habits. In the you try I think you translate that to the civilian size, and I can that's where our clients are going to want to know what are the consequences if you fail to do this. You know, it's it's interesting because you bring up the NATO context, and that's a perfect thing too, because um, while I'm not a privacy lawyer yet, um I I've taken the exams and I've done some research. It's you know, the EU um has its own laws which govern data, and it's and it's much more broad than the US uh because it deals with any EU citizen. So if you're working in a small, like it would, you know, the large multinationals you know have their own people, but they're they're still dealing data transfers back and forth all the time. Imagine if you're in litigation against a company that has data and that's stored in Germany. Uh you know, there are laws that prevent you from getting some of that. Our US discovery laws are much broader than the the GDPR that the foreign laws are. And so we have to understand that, and how can you transfer that data? You may have an obligation if you're being sued and your data is maintained in Europe, you still may have an obligation, your US company may have an obligation to provide that, but the German, the GDPR, the EU laws prohibit that or limit it severely. And then they question it's it's all these things. It's dealing with our NATO partners and how much information we can give them about a target in her strike.
SPEAKER_03Yes. You know, like when I was a prosecutor in Germany, you know, similarly, uh working with the German politzei or the Dutch, you know, federal police, um, that was kind of interesting, being able to like trade information amongst each other in order to be able to prosecute crime. So like I've kind of found that interesting now in private practice that we're just kind of used to dealing with international partners and having to go through, you know, certain hurdles to get to information. Um, but just having moved around a lot, it's something that you kind of just have uh, you know, second nature that you're you're comfortable with. Well, and you know, it's amazing that, you know, the opportunities that veterans have, you know, especially with you being there in the DC area, all the networking events. Um, you know, I'm very excited that our military veterans in law LinkedIn group is growing so quickly. We've got people posting on there about different events going on. Um, and and it's nice as we're we just went over uh 200 members this past week and it's rapidly growing. And so you can, you know, the nice thing is folks that go in there to join, it's because like the rest of us, they want to help each other. So you can scroll through there and see folks that are doing things that you're interested in doing and reach out. And um, you know, uh I I'm excited for like next year, here in a few months when Will has made the transition is on the other side, getting you back on here, Will, to talk about you know what went well, what didn't, you know, and where you ultimately landed.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. I look forward to it as well. And and and the networking is huge. And I and I saw your uh the the uh veterans uh legal meetup uh on by Holland and Night, hosted by Holland and Night. I attended that a couple of weeks ago. And and that was fantastic. And then I just so if anyone's listening, later this year, umric, which is one of the law firms downtown DC, they have a uh Wilmer Hale is one of the other partners they work with, they have a veterans legal career fair um that they've done for about the last 10 years. And I went last year when I was like just dipping my toe in the water uh just to see what it was like. And um it was unbelievable. Like they had vendors just came out and you know, Meta was there, Amazon, T-Mobile, they were all there to you know be in like interested in from the corporate side. Then there was all these firms, law firms all over DC, the big named ones, um, were all there looking and had booths set up to talk to you. So any veteran uh legal professional doesn't need to be a jag. You know, if you've anybody is uh should go to these events, they're free. Um and I am looking forward to. Going again this year, it was a it was an eye opener. Let me just say it was an eye-opener.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, it amazes me. Like um, you know, we got so many people that are joining the group right now that are practicing all over the country, some abroad, and all the different areas there are um of the law where, you know, if there's something that you want to do, we've got a veteran out there that can get you to where you want to go. And the nice thing is, is like, you know, we all want to help each other. Um, so, you know, Will, you know, what are some things that you can help members of the Military Veterans Law community with and how can they help you?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, anybody can help me find a job. That would be great. Uh that would be the first thing. Um, but you know, I think it's just talking through the experience. Like, what is your plan? Uh I I took this on and I'm still going through this process, and it's been about a year of like reaching out and trying to find out what I was interested in. Um, I've talked to former judge advocates, um, I've talked to peers about what it was like, and and those conversations have helped shape me. Not just actually, not even just judge advocates, I have a friend of mine who just got out of battalion command. And um, and what is he doing and how is he thinking about this? And that process, I talked to Trish. I I don't I didn't know Trish. Um, she was given my her name was given to me by a friend of mine uh last year, and I talked to her, and she hooked me up with a a veteran service organization to help with my VA claim.
SPEAKER_03I didn't know Trish and those other ex-JAGs have going on at T-Mobile right now where they've group got a group of about 12 former JAG attorneys on board there. Um, it just goes to show that folks do, you know, value the the military experience. It's just finding the right group of people, you know, that know how to assess it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she took me. I called her, we talked for an hour about getting out what it was like, the benefits, the did the changes. That was fantastic. So anybody can call me anytime. I'm happy to talk to anybody about my transition from active duty uh still to to civilian life and what things are out there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you you've been able to tap into some amazing resources. Um, so that's great that you're gonna be able to help you know put other people in touch with those same type of uh resources. And then I'm also looking forward to you know touching base with you again here in a few months to see where you're at and where you'll be able to you know help pull others into. Absolutely. Well, I think the fact, you know, when folks join the Military Veterans and Law LinkedIn group, it's an indicator that they do want to help, right? The the fact that they're joining the group, yeah. I mean, I think that that says uh a lot. So, well, any last uh words of wisdom from your end?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I I I just I I think I just want to repeat, like it's a process. Uh, you know, every one of us ends the our road in the army or the military, one way or the other, you know. Hopefully it's on your terms. And if it is on your terms and you're thinking about getting out and you want to get into the civilian world and still practice law, uh take the time. There's resources out there. There's resources that we don't think about a lot of times, like the classes. We don't we I think we feel all sometimes we're degreed out, we're terminal degrees, but there are certifications, there's things that can translate better to the uh civilian practice and and just ask questions. I I just ask questions. Uh we gotta keep learning um because we're gonna learn a new language basically uh when we get out of the army.
SPEAKER_03That's right, man. I think you you've only finished maybe the first half of your legal uh career. You know, there's there's a lot of road ahead, and uh I'm excited to see what you do. Thanks a ton for coming on the show, Will, and being so willing to help others that are out there. And congratulations to you and your family on your retirement. Thanks a lot, Jared. Thanks for having me. For those out there listening, please give the show a five-star review and invite folks to join our LinkedIn and Facebook groups to make it easier for others to find us so that we can help more people. And thank you for listening to the Military Veterans and Law Podcast, where we continue to serve together.
SPEAKER_00Hi, this is Ella the Fact Checker. On this episode, Will recounted an occasion during his waiting days in D.C. when Prince and his entourage dined at Will's restaurant. Our research disclosed that Will failed to mention that this visit by his royal badness inspired Will's own Prince phase, in which he loved to drive around D.C. in its little red corvette, jamming out to Purple Rain, and literally partying like it was 1999 in his Raspberry Beret. You got the luck, Will.
SPEAKER_01You've been listening to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast from the Civil and Criminal Defense Team at Collins and Lacey Law Firm in South Carolina with your host, Jared Fussnecker. For more information, visit Collinsandlacey.com. Not associated with the United States government or any of the military branches. All statements on the podcast are made in a personal capacity.