Ben Grimes: Blackhawk Pilot, JAG, Career Coach

Ben is a former Blackhawk Helicopter Pilot and a retired US Army JAG.  After his retirement from the active-duty Army, he served for seven years in the  Department of Justice’s Professional Responsibility Advisory Office. Ben is currently a Lecturer in Law at Columbia University Law School and the Principal at Alturos Edge, where he helps grow the next generation of lawyers by focusing on legal ethics, professional responsibility, and professionalism.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

From the Civil and Criminal Defense Team at Collins and Legacy Law Department, South Carolina. This is the Military Veterans in Law Podcast with your host, Jared Fostnecker.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast. I'm Jared Fostnecker. Joining us today is Ben Grimes. Ben is a former Black Culf pilot and a retired U.S. Army Jag. After his retirement from the active duty Army, he served for seven years in the Department of Justice's Professional Responsibility Advisory Office. Ben is currently a lecturer in law at Columbia University and the principal at Alteros Edge, where he helps grow the next generation of lawyers by focusing on legal ethics, professional responsibility, and professionalism. Thanks for joining us today, Ben.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I am glad to be here, Jerry. Great uh look really looking forward to talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Hey, thanks a lot for coming on here. Um, as we were discussing right before we uh started the show, you know, the fact that you've gotten into coaching legal professionals, I find that extremely interesting. And I think you've got a lot of value uh to share with those folks out there that are listening, whether they've already made uh the transition from service uh to working in the legal field or whether they did that a long time ago. I think all of us are in need of a coach. And uh I I myself am definitely feeling that nowadays, juggling, you know, firm life, reserves, family life. Uh, and so I suspect you've got some insights about how to go about all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I I've got some ideas. I've got some ideas.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

But so I I think you've got a is that an army shirt you've got on today? Is that the hoodie? I saw a big A.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

It it is it is an Army hoodie. Um, I was just at my reunion uh a week ago, and so I'm uh I'm all decked out in swag.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

The the 30th reunion? Not the 30th, yes, yes. Did they uh they've been doing a lot of these reunions at off-site nowadays? Like, did did you actually go back to West Point for it or was it elsewhere?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

We were back at uh we were back at West Point, we were off-cycle doing a springtime reunion, but we were on site. Um, and it was just amazing to see how the place has both not changed and has changed dramatically. It was just uh a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

I feel that. Like uh last fall in November, I went back for the William Tudor Society. So it's like West Point's legal uh alumni that go back there. And you know, walking around campus, I just kept on expecting the brigade tactical officer to jump out of a bush and you know, just like the old days and start dressing me down for something, you know, being wrong. And I'm like, I'm not even in uniform. I mean, is you know, but I I'm sure there's something that you know that that I'm doing wrong right now, even in a civilian capacity, walking around less point that uh I should probably go march some hours for, just for like good old days. So now, where did you grow up, Ben?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I I grew up in York, Pennsylvania. That's the home of the peppermint patty.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

No way, the peppermint patty. And so uh is there like a big factory there, like Hershey's?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

No, and and to be honest, they don't make them there anymore. Um, but that is where they are from. For folks of us of a certain age, you might also recognize uh York as the home of the band live um from back in the 90s. Awesome. Those those guys went to high school, uh, or I I went to the same high school as those guys.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

So growing up in York, how did West Point get on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Well, um, I not only grew up in York, I also grew up pretty poor. And so as I was getting ready to graduate from high school, I was looking at what options were available to me. And I will be honest, I did not know anything about financial aid. I assumed that if you were going to go to college, you either had the money for your family had the money for it, or somebody bestowed a scholarship upon you. And I had like, I just didn't know any better. And at that, kind of around the same time, coincidentally, I heard about West Point. I was like, that's free, that's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

And and it's a lot better than figuring out financial aid. As it turns out from one aspect at least.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah. And um I I applied and luckily was accepted and offered uh an appointment and didn't apply anywhere else but West Point because I I applied early admission, I got an early acceptance, and um I started an application to Navy, and God bless all those uh Navy folks out there, but I was not having it. Uh I was uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Similar story for me. Like uh, you know, I I applied to West Point in Ohio University, and in August of my senior year, West Point said you're good to go. And I was like, All right, no need to figure out this financial aid stuff. So, you know, I'm yours. Um, and so you get there, and you know, I saw that you majored in German. So like somehow, like each of these shows, I I managed to be able to like you know bring it back to Germany somehow. Cause I I did I did three years there, you know, Fussnuckers, obviously a German name. Like my wife's got family in Munich. So, like, how was it that you came about being a German major?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah. Um, I was and and and I will play into a stereotype right now because you know, folks who are listening to us can't see me. I'm a black dude. Um like black dude's not known for speaking German. And and and that's as much stereotyping as we're gonna do today. But I as a kid, my stepfather was enlisted, and we were stationed in Germany for one tour. Um, he got court-martialed and we got sent home early. But while we were there, I went to the German public school. And so from fourth grade to sixth grade, I was in German public school. And so by the time I got to West Point, I had some German in me. Wow. And uh an easier major was the way to go.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

So you grew up an army brat until junior high. No, no, no. It was one tour. Um, one tour. So you were you were in York and then you were in Germany and then you were back to York? And then we were back in York. Oh, wow. Yeah. What what a culture shock going from York to where were you in Germany?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

In Heidelberg. Oh, what a beautiful place. Yeah. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. Like and and I I will jump ahead just a little bit because when I um when I got out of law school and and officially joined the Jag Corps, you know, that now we're jumping ahead 10 years. My first assignment in the Jag Corps was back in Heidelberg.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

V Corps. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, I I got to intern with V Cor during law school and then deployed with them once they moved up to Wiesbaden. And it and it kills my soul a little bit that User and V Corps are not still in Heidelberg. It was the place to be. It was it was rough to see that turned over. Like um, so anything else that you were really into while you were at West Point?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I was uh a swimmer. I'm still into swimming. Um, I was a swimmer then. But the the big thing for me at my big experience at West Point was getting turned back, was getting kicked out for honor. Um no. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Um I mean, especially for somebody who later on their life is going to be on the ABA standing committee on professionalism, you know, like talk about a bounce back.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

It it absolutely a bounce back. And and the way I used to tell it is it was like the origin story of Ben Grimes was getting kicked out of West Point and learning a lesson and coming back and kind of immersing myself in the idea of ethics and principle and professionalism. And I I I've I've started to shy away from that, to that story a little bit because it's a it's not entirely accurate. I mean, it was absolutely a formative experience. It was it made my experience at West Point even more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Um lots of stress involved. Lots of stress. For folks that aren't familiar with it, you know, like the uh the cadet honor code says the cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do. And, you know, if if you the punishment can be extremely harsh. For you know, those that are juniors or seniors, you know, if you get kicked out, you're going back to the you're going into the army as an enlisted soldier. Um, I remember once I got stationed in Korea, there was an E4 aviation mechanic who like I I saw him, I recognized him, I was like, wait a second, wasn't he a firstie when I was a cow? And you know, and that now he, you know, he was doing five years enlisted because he had cheated on, I think it was uh, you know, an end of semester paper or or something like that. And you know, there was one time where I was at Fort Hood doing tactical leadership training the summer before my junior year, and there goes a soldier carrying a guide on during morning PT when we're running around posts. And I'm like, oh, wait a second, what's he doing here? And why is he enlisted? And they had sent him back to be enlisted for a year and they allowed him to return. Um, and then you know, some folks are kicked out and they owed$250,000 back to West Point for their education. So, you know, obviously Canada Arnorcode taken extremely seriously. And so I know that had to be, you know, likewise extremely stressful for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Well, it it was very stressful. I was very fortunate to be offered an opportunity to come back after being suspended. I I will say though, um, it was the uh the first and last time I had a really stressful meeting with a three-star general that turned into the best day of my of my career because I got my punish the punishment was handed down by the superintendent. And so I went through the process, I went through the board, they investigated all that stuff, and then had to wait to see the superintendent, the uh Lieutenant General Graves, to to find out whether or not I could stay.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

So how did you what was it that uh got you in front of the three-star?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah, I um this was early 90s. This was 1991. So because this is technology related, I have to set the stage uh like that. Okay. Um back in 1991, instead of full-fledged internet, we had bulletin board systems. And so you would log into your computer, uh, a a tabletop-sized practically 386 computer, um, and it would put you on a bulletin board system. It's like an early Reddit, um, is how it worked. And when I logged in on my computer, I logged into another Cadet Company's bulletin board system. Okay. And my roommate and another buddy, we were the three of us were sitting there like, this is hilarious. We're on this other company's bulletin board. So let's post a message. And so we posted a message, not I, but one of them posted a message that said, The plebs, the freshmen, are amazing and the upperclassmen suck. Um, and so the next morning at formation, at breakfast formation, everybody was in my business. Uh, like, what did you do? What's going on? Why did you do this? I was just getting hazed nonstop for 36 hours.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

And were you a plebe or and I was a plebe.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

This was August of my plebe year. Yeah. Yeah. Like school had just started.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Wow. Literally just finished cadet basic training and had just started the academic year.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Just started the academic year. Uh, and so it was it was the worst time for something like that that it could be. And after uh so you know, 36 hours later, one of my upperclassmen was inspecting my room and walked out and asked me, How did this happen? Uh, do you have any? He said, Do you have any idea how this happened? And while I couldn't explain the techn the technology of it, I did have some idea how it happened. And I said, No, sir, I don't. And later that night I went back to him and I said, Hey, Cadetco, actually, I do I don't I can't explain it, but I do have some idea how this happened.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

So even it was the equivocation, and even with the follow-up, that was enough to uh initiate an an honor investigation. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So how long was the suspension?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

It was one semester. So I left after the military intercession the first year. So I did the full first semester, did military intercession, and left right, left right after that, and came back the following year as a recognized plebe.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

So and had to do a another full year as a plebe, though.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

As a plebe, but as a recognized plebe, which was socially the worst thing for me because all of my original classmates had gone off to do summer uh cadet training at Camp Buckner. All of my new classmates had just done cadet basic training together and had kind of formed tight bonds. And I was in the middle and not doing this the things that the other plebes were doing. So I wasn't delivering newspapers, I wasn't walking around calling people sir. I was like, hey, what's up, Jared? And everybody else is like, hey, sir. Um, and so it was very socially isolating.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, because plebe recognition happens what toward the end of plebe year. And once they're recognized, then they don't have to do what what you just described there, the duties, you know, delivering upperclassmen's laundry, calling minutes to how how many minutes until the next formation, so forth. And then you're actually recognized by your first name as opposed to just Cadet Grimes. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

That's right. So it was really so my grades that year were fantastic because I had nothing else to do. My swimming that year was fantastic because I had nothing else to do except train and study because I had no friends. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

So I mean, so you basically did five years at West Point, got a bonus year, and like come into the army as a Blackhawk pilot, right? Yes. And where where did you do that time?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

So um after flight school at Fort Rucker, I was my first assignment was South Korea. Um and that was great because I was not uh on the DMZ, I was in uh Seoul uh in uh at K-16, and for half the year had a single platoon detached down in Tegu. So as a as a uh lieutenant, I was the you know big man on campus down there with uh two two crews and uh and three aircraft all by ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And you were able to go back and forth between two of the largest cities in Seoul to check on your folks. And what I was in Yongson for a bit, and you know, so Taegu is now Daegu, apparently. T's are now pronounced like D's, um, which uh I I think I'll never fully uh catch on to.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, and then after that it was Fort Fort Campbell, and from Fort Campbell, it was getting picked up for the funded legal education program.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And so what made you to make decide to make the transition to being a Jag?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah, I I loved flying, and uh I realized that as I got more senior as a as a commissioned pilot, I was gonna fly less and less. I was gonna be the S1, the S3, maybe I'll be a commander, a battalion commander someday. And I realized I wasn't gonna fly. And I decided if I wasn't gonna fly, that was gonna make me competitive to get a flight job outside the army. I said, if I'm not gonna fly, if I'm gonna be a staff officer anyway, I should just be the staffiest staff officer I can be. And I heard about I heard about the funded legal education program. I I had picked up the post newspaper just randomly, which I never do. And there was an article in there about FLEP. And I said, I love to get paid to go to school. I should sign up for this.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Great. And you got in and ended up at NYU. So back in New York, but uh much different experience than your now you're in downtown Manhattan for law school.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

That's right. Downtown Manhattan for law school, and thanks to the Army, I had um an apartment out at a Brownstone apartment out in Brooklyn. And so I was absolutely living the life uh for three years. It's a great program. If anybody who's active duty uh and junior officer thinking about it, you should absolutely apply for your services funded legal education program.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Wow, yeah. I mean, what an amazing situation being in downtown New York City. Um, and you would have been there for 9-11 then. I was there for 9-11.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Wow, what was that like for you? That was surreal. It was surreal because in I had I was in the the garden apartment of my brownstone, so I had a little backyard out there, and so I could see the ash from the towers falling in my backyard. And as things were burning on 9-11, I got a call from the Pentagon, from uh the Jag Corps, and I thought this was it. Um, as it turns out, they were just checking on me to make sure I was okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Had the Pentagon been hit yet? Um That's kind of wild to think that, you know, like Yeah, what the what I you know, and this is 25 years later, trying to remember the exact timing of it, you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

But but I I definitely remember that day I got a call. Wow. And it was just um I I thought I thought I'm leaving law school, I'm going back to the I gotta figure out how to fire it up 16 again.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Like but they just knew that you were in New York City, so they were checking to make sure that you were all right. That's right. Um, yeah, what a wild experience. And so then you come out of law school, you do JAG Officer Basic Course, and then it looks like they're kind of like working in the traditional assignments. You did administrative law, trial counsel, became a senior defense counsel, um what and then judge advocate recruiting office before the grad course. So those kind of like formative captain early major years, what was kind of the highlight there for you?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

The the highlight and and uh and frankly, the lowlight uh was um uh the the one year that I deployed. I was in the I was active duty for 20 years. I only deployed once, very fortunate. Um, the highlight of the of that early time was my deployment to Iraq and to Baghdad. Um, it was a lowlight also because I had just gotten married. So my first year of marriage was me in Iraq. We got married in July and I deployed in October. And so I missed the first of everything that year. But as you know, professionally, a deployment is the best thing ever. It's it's three years of of development in a year. And so professionally, it was a is a great time. And who'd you deploy with? I deployed with Fifth Corps and with 22nd Signal Brigade. So I was dual-headed as the senior trial counsel for MNCI and as the uh brigade judge advocate for 22nd Signal Brigade.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

And what year was that?

SPEAKER_01 18:57

That was 05 to 06.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, I think I interned. We were a little bit busy. We had some very interesting cases.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah, I interned there in 07, the summer of 07. So was Michelle Miller your SJA then? Yes. Okay, yeah. And like Colonel Frederickson was there when I was there. He was the chief of justice. Colonel Reed, I want to say was chief of ad law. Um it was a really amazing shop that was that was there when I got there.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I I just saw Colonel Reed last week. Oh, no way. What's he up to? Yeah, he lives not too far from me. What's he doing? He is he's back in government. I forget where I forget where. He had retired and gone out and done a lot of um knowledge management work for law firms.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Yeah, I remember I think he stood that up for the Jag Corps, I believe. The knowledge management website.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yep. And and so he got out and was doing that in law firms and was in the law firm world for quite a while, 10, 12 years. Um, and then a few years ago transitioned back to government. He's in some some government agency in the DC area.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Interesting. Yeah, it sounds like another potential guest. Absolutely. So after the grad course, you do senior defense counsel, and then you were the vice chair of the criminal law department. And I went through there in 2014, 2015 when I was the chief of justice at Irwin, and I remember you teaching, and you were just really held in in high regard. And during that same time frame, uh you got named to the ABA Standing Committee on Professionalism. How did that come about while you were still on active duty?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I um while I was at the JAG school, I was my portfolio was professional responsibility. And I had no background in legal ethics and professional responsibility before getting to the schoolhouse, but that was the portfolio that I picked up from the guy I was replacing. Um so that's what I was doing. And I found that I really, really liked it. I love legal ethics and professional responsibility, particularly um with the with the the comparison to what it means to be an officer, because we have this idea of officership and the the officer, the the army ethic and the idea of officership. Well, for lawyers, that's the that's the model code. That's the rules of professional responsibility. Um, and so those rules really spoke to me um because I saw the parallels. And um while I and because I wanted to do really well at the teaching of it, I reached out to an organization called the National Institute for Teaching Ethics and Professionalism and was a fellow for one of their um one of their conferences. And while I was there, I met the council for the ABA committee. He talked to the chair committee of the committee. They got me an invitation and an appointment to the committee. And that's where it started. And so I've been, since then, I've been pretty well connected with the we'll call it the civilian professional responsibility community, both at the ABA, at the Association of Professional Responsibility Lawyers, and some other places. And I'm speaking at a symposium in October on the future of the DOJ based on those connections.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Wow. Well, it because it seems like up to this point, you were probably you were considered a criminal person because you were trial counsel, defense counsel, senior defense counsel, came back to the department to teach criminal law. So I'm assuming that you saw yourself on a criminal justice uh trajectory, and then this kind of tweaked, you know, this was probably a pretty pivotal moment in your career when you're like, oh, I just randomly got this portfolio assigned to me, but I really like it.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah. If anyone has ever thought about the rules of professional conduct, you are an outlier. Because I never did. And I got to the schoolhouse and I was like, I got to teach ethics. That's that's terrible. That sucks. That like this is the worst thing ever. Can't somebody else do this? Because it was the thing that we never talked about. Um, I never talked about it. And I'll be honest, like, I didn't talk about it very much when I when I was a senior defense counsel. Like I was very into um making sure that my counsel were um thinking creatively, were taking care of themselves. I had a very strong wellness focus. I was oriented towards client, the like the whole client, taking care of the whole client. Um, and in in our office at uh JBLM Joint Based Lewis McCord, we talked about taking care of the client, not the case. And so I I like to think that I had a pretty fulsome um approach to lawyering, but what I realized was that we we as an organization don't talk about professional responsibility and ethics nearly as much as we should. And my eyes were opened to the impact of the rules when I got to the Department of Justice.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Well, that's kind of interesting what you just said about being focused on the wellness of the client. Um, where did that kind of like more broader approach as opposed to just handling their criminal defense, but also making sure that you're taking care of the individual brought more broadly? Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

It came from my experience as a as a defense counsel at Fort Meyer, and then and then later as the senior defense counsel, because I saw I saw my client, I saw what my clients were dealing with. And my remit, our remit as defense counsel, is is specifically to address the military justice issue. But the military justice issue is inevitably affected and influenced by everything else that is going on in their lives. And to the extent that we can not take responsibility for all of those other things, but help them to the extent that we can with those other stressors and decisions and factors, then we are number one doing them a favor, but then we're also giving them tools and information that we can bring to bear in the military justice case as mitigation, as extenuation, um, as part of the argument to explain the behavior. Um all of that is useful. And I just wanted to make sure that my counsel were thinking of their responsibility more broadly than filing the motion in front of them.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, I find that very interesting because you know, after active duty, I prosecuted here at the South Carolina Attorney General's office. And, you know, a lot of sentences, you know, included probation. And there you, you know, it helps you kind of get at the root cause of why they are here. And, you know, a military installation has a lot of those similar social services, um, but they aren't, you know, like that's usually more command-driven as opposed to being part of the court-martial process.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

That that's like that's exactly right. And that idea of root cause, if if our council, if our if our military defense council are keyed in on that root cause analysis, that root cause, uh addressing those root cause um issues, they can interface with the command on behalf of the client or give the client language to take to the command to address those things. Because the command generally just wants good order. Most of the cases that come up in the military are not murders. Most of them are disrespect or drugs or something like minor things. And if we can get at those root cause issues, then we're giving the command what they want and giving the client a benefit in the process.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

So you're at the criminal department, uh, you're there for three years, you're starting to come up when you're 20 years, you're you have this developing interest in legal ethics. Do you are you starting to formulate an idea of where this could go after your service?

SPEAKER_01 27:17

No, not at all, because I I I didn't have any idea that there was uh a formal legal ethics practice out there. Uh I think I I'd like to think that I was normal. Maybe I was not, but but I think most of us when we're in uniform have a relatively narrow sense of the world. Um I think that's true for judge advocates. I think it's true for um aviators, I think that's true for everybody. We have a relatively narrow sense of the world.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah, there's, you know, especially for Jags. There's Jag Pub 1-1, and it's like, here's the career model, here's the jobs you're gonna do as a captain, as a major, as a lieutenant colonel, and you know, like the these this everything that you need to do to try to make, you know, 06, and it and you kind of can see your future laid out for you, and it's just a matter of which of these assignments and where in the world the army's gonna send you. Whereas then when it comes time to transition, you know, the world gets a bit larger in some ways of like, okay, now it's up to me, and I've got to find my own path. The army's no longer showing me the path.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah, and it's important at that point not to keep your head down focused on the path you've been treading. You've got to lift your head up and look at all of the other paths that are now available to you. That's a challenge for all of us. Um I was very lucky in that I was living, I'd been living with the standing committee on professionalism and some of the other professional responsibility work at the ABA that I was involved in. I had been in that civilian legal ethics practice world a little bit tangentially. And when it was time for me to transition, the job that I fell in on at the DOJ opened up. Uh, and and when I read the when I read the vacancy announcement, I was like, uh number one, I didn't believe this was a thing to to give legal ethics advice as your full-time job. And uh the timing just was perfect.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Yeah, so you uh you finished out your career as the deputy at the INSCOM, the Intelligence and Security Command, um, and that's at Fort Belvoir in Virginia. So you got back to the DC area. And so this job at DOJ in the professional responsibility advisory office, how did that get on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 29:41

USA jobs. Um when when we got to when we got to the DC area, when we got to Fort Belvoir um for the INSCOM job, uh my wife, who's also an attorney, got a job in the district at the Federal Trade Commission. And um she said, you can stay in the Army as long as you want, but we're done moving. And so uh and so I had been kind of soft looking around to see what sorts of jobs were out there. And I wasn't looking for anything right away because I was still in the first, at that point, I was still in the first eight months of my assignment. Um, and so I was just looking to see what kinds of things were out there. And then the job was announced on USA Jobs, and it was so perfect for me. It was a leadership position, it was doing legal ethics, it was in government at the Department of Justice, which is like the Army, a mission-driven organization that I can really get behind. And um I applied for it, I did uh two interviews and was offered the job before I dropped my paperwork. Um and when I finally did, I I had to ask the Jag Corps for a four-month retirement with two months of terminal leave. Um, and so I was gone in a heartbeat practically once that job landed.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

And so what got you the job at DOJ?

SPEAKER_01 31:02

I I think it was my um experience with the ABA and the world of of professional ethics.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Um what what originally was a phone call from or an email from you while you're at the Jag School saying, hey, I need some info to help get me up to speed, it turned into kind of a a networking and uh self-development for you, it seems like.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Absolutely. That's that's absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

So I mean, did you anybody that was interviewing at DOJ, did was there a personal contact that you were able to make, or what the work that you had done on the the committee on professionalism for the ABA, was did they help you or what did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

There I had no personal connections. Um I I think it certainly the work with the committee was important because I think it had some some real professional cachet. It was it was real work um in the same along the same lines. I think the teaching that I was doing, that I had done at the schoolhouse because I was focused on professional responsibility, that was meaningful. This office, Preo, the professional responsibility advisory office, this office at DOJ is unique in government. And they were looking for someone who could at least in the beginning speak a little bit of the ethics language. And I could. I thought I was fluent, and I was not. Like I learned a lot at the DOJ. Um, but I I had learned enough and I had been responsible for enough that it got me in the door, it got me the interview, I was able to um engage with them at a level that they could see that I I understood the issues and I understood the importance of it. And I and I think I carried into that, those interviews, a real earnestness for the mission, for public service, for the idea of ethics. And I could and and I'm confident, I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure that I also talked about my experience at West Point getting kicked out. And that being that that reminding me, which I carried forward now for 30 years, that these these things matter.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah. So yeah, something that was a real setback, you know, in your whole career, life, academic experience turned into a motivating force for you that really propelled you for for decades, literally. I guess. And and so what was kind of the substantive work and the highlights that you took away from your time at DOJ?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah. Anyone who has an interest in legal ethics and professional responsibility should keep an eye on vacancies at Prayo because it is one of the best jobs anywhere. The work is um is essentially the legal ethics hotline for DOJ. So anytime an AUSA or department attorney in DC has a question about what their um rules of professional responsibility require, they can call Prayo and get prospective advice about how to handle the situation. So that's conflicts of interest with regard to cases that you've worked on in the past or are working on in the future. It is um disclosure questions. Do I need to do I have an ethical obligation to turn this over to the defense, separate and apart from my substantive obligation under Brady and Giglio? Uh, because those rules are different. Um do I uh do I have the uh is is it permissible for me to order the FBI to um interview a witness or a target who I know to be represented by counsel? Right? That comes up all the time. So really interesting questions that are sometimes in investigation dispositive for our inquirers, um, but certainly very important. And they come up in cases that are run-of-the-mill drug cases at uh in the districts, all the way up to the most high-profile cases that you have seen in the news, Praio has advised on. Um, we have given, they, not we I'm not there anymore, they have given uh they've given ethics advice to the attorney general on many occasions on high profile issues, on conflicts of interest questions. Um they also have a training function. So they're not only giving this advice, they're also teaching um department attorneys how to understand and use these rules in their day-to-day life. Uh, and it was super rewarding. I learned a lot about the rules, and I learned a lot about the breadth of legal practice because I knew criminal practice. So walking in the DOJ, in my head, that's all it was was criminal practice. And you know, it's a lot more than that. And so I learned a lot about tax practice, about civil practice, about immigration practice. Um, it was at Preo that I first heard the term key TAM, and I was like, I don't even know what that is. Yeah. So right, I had no idea. Um, so I learned a lot about the practice of law as well, because in giving advice on whatever comes in the door, you have to get a sense of the matter itself so you can understand how the rules, how the ethics rules are going to apply.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

So, and was it while you were at DOJ that you got your certificate in leadership coaching from Georgetown?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah. I loved the work at DOJ. The mission of the department is great. The mission of that office in particular what resonated with me. The people were fantastic. And I missed the opportunity to be with people as they were growing in leadership. That was one of the things I really enjoyed in the Army. Um, as I got more senior, you know, you get to mentor, you get to shepherd, you get to help people grow up behind you. And I didn't have the opportunity to do that at Prayo. Prayo is a relatively flat organization. There's not a lot of movement in and out, which is great. But it left me wanting something. And um I heard about coaching. I I thought, like, this is crazy, this is uh unbelievable. It sounds like something I used to do. Um, and as it turns out, formal coaching is more than just sitting down and mentoring people, it's different. Um, but I didn't know that at the time. Um, so I I heard about that, I and I got certified. And uh how'd you hear about it?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

How'd coaching get on your radar? Because, like, you know, it's funny. My next door neighbor is like one of the top real estate agents uh in the state. He's an amazing guy. And and this guy, like I moved in a few years ago, and he's training for uh uh to run a hundred miles in four days for the Leukemia Society, uh competing in their Visionary of the Year contest. And you know, he raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, you know, former high school state wrestling champ, just a really driven individual. And um, you know, he he's been in my ear lately. It's like Jared, you you got to get a career coach, you know, because like me and he's got a a garage gym, and so Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, me and him and some other guys in the neighborhood, we get we get together to to work out, and like that we we're always comparing notes. And he's been using a career coach, and he's been my ear about it. And I saw that you're a career coach, so I was very interested in it. And I was like, how does this work for attorneys?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah. So um I found out about it because um I got a a cold solicitation on LinkedIn from a law firm that was looking for an ethics attorney. They were looking for a conflicts attorney. Oh, okay. So they were so I got I was so I in researching the firm to see whether or not I really wanted to talk to them about that. Um, I was listening to the the firm's podcast where they interview different people. And one of the people they interviewed was a coach who is internal to the firm, an executive coach internal to the firm for the partners and associates. And I was like, what in the world? Like, how is that a job? Uh like, but it sounded amazing. Yeah, and so I and that's that was my first introduction to it. And I looked into it some more. I found a great program at Georgetown to get trained, and I loved it. And as soon as my training was over, I left the DOJ with no, I just hung hung up a training shingle training, uh, a coaching shingle on my own with no prior entrepreneurial experience, leaving a job that I loved that and that I was getting paid well for to do this um on my own.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Did you just do it cold turkey, or did you have some clients, you know, already lined up, or what did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I think at the time I had one client. Um I had one client, but I I just left cold turkey.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

And so what gave you the confidence that this was gonna work?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Um number one, I'm I'm a bit of an optimist by nature. And number two, I was in a very fortunate position at the time. Um and and and still, I'm I'm retired. So I've got a source of income that is always gonna pay the mortgage. Um, my wife is working, so we we have that source of income. She's not gonna take a leap like I did. And so yeah, um so financially, we were in a position where I make it work to make it work and to give it a chance.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

And it was worth it. It's been worth it.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

And and so you said that you know, professional coaching is different than mentoring. How does it differ?

SPEAKER_01 41:11

So it's different from mentoring because when we when we have a mentoring conversation with someone, we are typically drawing on our own experience to help them um navigate a challenge or a path that they're trying to figure out. With coaching, pure coaching. In a pure coaching conversation, I should never offer my own experience. A pure coaching conversation is me asking you questions that that help to um give you a different perspective on the challenge that you're facing, to see your situation from another perspective, and to discover the answer that you need that's already within you.

unknown 42:04

No.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

And I I assume the folks that you are, you know, going through the course with to get your certificate, they're coming from all different types of backgrounds and they're gonna coach all different types of professionals, I assume, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yes. And and so you had to, were there other folks in there that were gonna coach legal professionals, or did you have to try to figure out how to tailor this for attorneys? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah, I I was the only one in there with an eye on coaching lawyers and and within law firms. And the reason the reason I chose that is because I know what I saw in the profession. Um, coming out growing up professionally in the army or in the military, we're all um working with a great benefit of structured leadership development. And we take it for granted. Anybody who has been out in the world knows that people get promoted because ideally, they get promoted because they're good at something. But what they're good at is the thing they're not doing anymore. Right? And they're getting promoted into supervisory positions to manage the work of people that do the thing that they're good at, but they're not, they're very rarely being promoted because of their potential for the new job. That's the military. You get promoted based on your potential to excel in the next rank. In in the civilian world, you get promoted because of your past success. And so you step into a role that you're not prepared for, that no one has trained you for, that you've got no guidance or structure or guardrails or help navigating the conflicts that develop between the team that you're managing, how to how to get your priorities heard by other folks in the organization. Like all of those things that we take for granted because we have been trained to do so, the rest of the world can cannot do intuitively. And it makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Yeah. It's, you know, all these things that you you get beat into your head over the years. Uh it turns out you it's tough to beat them out. You know, it's like on a daily basis, you know, I'm like, you know, it's like be no do. You know, doers do what checkers check. You know, like all these little things that you know you just get all these nuggets over the year, years. And you know, it's like when you're at work, you're like, oh, yep, that thought's still back there. You know, it's like, okay, this is how I how I need to go about my business. You know, it's just it just you know ground into you. And it's like, okay, that the the same way that I went about work in the past, that's how I go about it now. It's just in a different setting.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah. And and all of us who are coming out of the military have these great this great body of experience um doing leadership, which as you know is different than management. And and many folks who get promoted into managerial positions can't manage either. But they certainly aren't prepared to lead. And I think both of those skills are necessary. I think all of us who are coming out of uniform are well positioned to do things like coaching because we have this personal experience that we can use to inform the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

So coaching as an academic discipline right what is kind of like the intellectual foundation there I'm assuming that it's drawing off of psychology management like different found uh different academic disciplines and that it's probably I'm assuming that it's cherry picking from different disciplines to form this area of coaching but what are like the intellectual underpinning underpinnings of it?

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah the the the frameworks of coaching the tools of coaching as you suggest come from a lot of different disciplines and it really depends on the style of coaching that you learn or the individual coach themselves um what flavor of coaching they pursue. So there are some coaches who are really focused on the science uh focused on neuroscience and the implications of how the brain works there are some there are some who are focused on um more interpersonal relationships and understanding the dynamics of um threat and reward and and how that shows up in um interpersonal relationships um in you know in and hierarchies in work there are some that are a little bit uh more um focused on the somatic um practice and how stress and uh anxiety shows up in the body and how we can use that to um signal to ourselves cognitively when we're under stress and how we can um engage in different practices to change the way our body is reacting in order to um present or or to to manifest a different um outcome and kind of on the edge of that there's like this like energy there's also kind of a field of of coaching that is focused on um energy management um and to me that's a little bit outside of my um comfort zone I'm a little bit more academic minded myself and so I I kind of stick to that neuroscience and interpersonal kind of um uh emotional intelligence focused um leadership yeah that's interesting uh what you're saying about the somatic practice because I was surprised to find you know we we were allowed to pick a couple of lectives when I went through the distance war college and I picked a class that it involved med using meditation to improve yourself as a leader.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

And the you know like I myself you know like just being forced to to meditate the whole idea is you clear your brain of your thoughts you feel your body relaxed and you kind of practice that so that you realize that as kind of like a baseline. And that way you become on a day-to-day basis when you're the further you get away from the baseline, the more that you realize it like hey my body's stressed my mind is stressed and trying to pick up on that so that you can then step back and realize okay I'm more observant of the fact that I'm stressed and why is that so that you can then react appropriately. And then I think kind of from a neuroscience perspective you know one of the things you know through um you know listening to podcasts that are that are focused on you know behavior is this idea of our animal brains that were kind of first uh that we developed um and that's just being reactive the fight or flight type stuff that in today's world you know may not be as useful as to like when you were being chased by bears or something like that. When you get the email that angers you and you go into fight or flight mode, you know, being able to realize hey something just stressed me my animal brain reacted you know firing off you know the the the horrible email is that the right response or do I need to you know distance myself give myself some time to calm down and allow I believe it's the amygdala the the more developed brain right to then have which is the logical part of the brain to then react and do something you know that that makes sense to respond in a way that makes sense. So it sounds like that you're kind of integrating these different approaches into your coaching.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yes absolutely and and to take your example of of that email that triggers you and makes you want to respond um viscerally keep that same idea and think about the leader, the manager who is sending that email if you can be mindful of the impact that you have on other people when that email lands you get to tailor that email before you hit send. And you can change the dynamic in the office just by adding a few sentences or a few more words to the email that you send so that it mitigates that visceral response when it lands and all of a sudden you're a better manager. And people are like what's changed Jared's the same but something's changed because it's not so stressful around here anymore.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yeah or or rather than you know sending a response going and having conversations saying hey I just got the the email this is how it came across to me right this is what the assumptions that I had you know not all those assumptions are probably right explain to me where it was coming from for from you right so that we can hash this out and there's no lingering issue and you understand each other better because as we all know so much is often lost in email. Yes absolutely so okay you came from a government background got into coaching and so you know like a lot of folks that are in private practice are probably thinking hey how can uh an attorney as a coach or you know somebody who's got the government background, I need coaching, you know, how to progress in my civil litigation career or my transactional career. Can you explain that how what you've been trained to do, even though you didn't come from the firm background or the corporate background, how is it that you can coach those that are yeah well it number one my clients don't come to me because I've been a partner at Latham and Watkins because I haven't been they they come to me to help them figure out how to navigate what's in front of them.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

And what's in front of them is typically advancing into a position that is new to them and has new responsibilities that they don't know how to how to how to navigate it it is less about well let me back up or rather let me let me rephrase that when my clients come to me they are looking for help navigating a challenge that inevitably comes back to relationships with others whether that's finding new business managing associates dealing with partners who are on the recruiting committee or the management committee or the executive committee you know if we're talking about senior folks managing the relationships with the folks on your XCOM or in your office or your paralegals finding new business those are all people relationships. And so what I what I do my work is to help my clients communicate more clearly and before that even understand themselves more clearly so that they can communicate more clearly so that they can identify what they're after and how best to get it in the context of the relationships that they're working with. And so whether that and again that can be soliciting new business and and we talk about that regularly but it's also how do I deal with the friction that comes with humans being in the office together.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Yeah and I think that point that you made about knowing yourself like that is so important because you know like as you're going through your JAG core career a lot of folks the knowing yourself is really like hey which one am I a military justice person, a national security law person, an ad law person? Am I somebody that's you know wants to be a broadly skilled judge advocate and touch a bit of these so I can be a staff judge advocate to me that was probably how I would have thought of the knowing yourself you know like when I was on active duty and now you know I think um you know it it's something that I've paid a lot of attention to especially you know as a dad now um with my kids and trying to figure out how do I get them enough time, you know, when I've got a busy private practice, I'm still doing the Army reserves, but you know obviously my children you know are my number one priority and showing up for them and not being stressed out, not being tired, you know, all these work obligations that we have and all of us as professionals, you know, we we put such a high priority on it. But you know like when when you're talking about knowing yourself, you know, that's one of the reasons why I took that meditation course in leadership at the war college is because like I noticed myself with I had, you know, I think the boys were probably two or three when I was going through war college. So like they're at that phase where they're just tearing up the house at all points in time and I notice myself on edge and I'm like okay when I'm tired and cranky that is when I am you know most likely to not handle it in you know the the most productive way and I'm like okay how do I start to remedy that how do I you know and and these same things that you know my my boys being a big reason why I wanted to approach that I've noticed in the work environment it's the same type of thing you know what are the what are my triggers you know who is it that is aggravating me why is it you know like that you know an opposing counsel or something like that and it's like okay at the end of the day I'm trying to get this case resolved you know making the situation between me and the opposing counsel doesn't help me accomplish my goal let's pick up the you know after I've had the chance to to to calm down let's pick up the phone and have a conversation with them and say hey you know here's how I'm viewing this case how are you viewing it what are our points in conflict you know is there a potential resolution for us um so that part about knowing yourself um it it really resonates with me.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

I I think that that is fundamental. And it's one of the things that I spend a lot of time with with my clients working on is that idea of knowing yourself because it shows up as cognitive dissonance the kind of an a non-specified cognitive dissonance if you're not sure if you're uncomfortable or not sure about what's important to you or whether not whether or not it's okay that it's important to you. I worked with a client who was progressing in her career and had just been promoted into a more senior position in her office and she was feeling conflicted because um she she was uncomfortable in the environment kind of broadly kind of socially um but she really wanted to be earning the money and felt bad about wanting to earn the money like money was important and and getting clear about that's what is driving her it's not the title it's not the big office it's not the firm that she's with but the salary the the what is she earning that's what's important but but being that focused on money in this environment where not everybody is made her feel like she was doing something wrong. And so getting clear on that and making it okay coming to grips with it gave her a chance to make different choices in her in her career.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

So I'm a big fan of Arthur Brooks. He's currently a professor at Harvard Business School and he's got a podcast office hours and he researches you know positive psychology what are the ingredients to a good life not just what's wrong with people who are struggling with mental illnesses and he had a great episode this past week that I'd recommend to folks and it talks about the five different types of wealth financial physical um social um time and I'm blanking on one right now but you know I I think it's a a great way of looking through the lens of you know do you do you have yourself in balance in each of these areas and by focusing on one are you getting the others out of out of balance. And so I think it's and also when you're analyzing you know potential possibilities, you know, the salary at one job may be great but it could also leave you with no time wealth, right? Like that's all often what is uh there, you know, the the give and take in finding a career where hey you know can you you know can have enough you know uh financial resources to accomplish those other areas where you have good relationships and you have time to focus on other things that you're interested in. Because one of his takeaways is is that the the the most important thing in determining whether you're happy or not is the quality of your relationships with others.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Yeah I think that's exactly right and and the the opposite end of the spectrum from that the one client I described is another uh another attorney I was working with who was um at a big firm working nonstop getting all the accolades so she was making the money she was also getting all of the accolades everybody appreciated her wanted to wanted her on their matters but she was burning the candle at both ends and was not interested in the work that she was doing. And and so you know her her struggle was um walking away from the the uh the social acceptance that comes with being the rock star in the office.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Yeah and and that's where you really risk burnout is when you don't have the the subset of interest in the work that you're doing. Because if it's something that you love, you know, like it's kind of self-sustaining. If you have to drag yourself through it, well that that's a whole nother ballgame. And so as you got this coaching business up and running what gave you the traction how were you able to start converting clients you know like how like folks that were coming from law firms or corporations, how did they get drawn to you? Because I assume that's where a lot of your work is coming from.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Yeah. It's um a little bit of um being present on LinkedIn and so um just making sure that you know you've you've got uh a voice and a perspective and I and I think that having a clear idea of who I am like I've done the work on on what's important to me. And I think that my perspective is a little bit different than folks uh other coaches in the in the legal community. So I know exactly what who I'm helping who how I'm working with them and folks that that come and work with me want to get a handle on not just what's in front of them but also the impact that they can make in their firm in their community in their family in their life more broadly um so it's it's being seen a little bit and that that takes some time.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

And then it's word of mouth you know yeah to to that point um you know about wanting to make an impact you know I I I read something this past week and it was talking about the difference between being successful and being significant and you know you can pick any field and becoming successful in it but you you know your impact isn't necessarily significant right and and you know significance being how are you helping other people how are you helping your community and and I found that really insightful and you know one of the things that you're doing to continue to help others is that you're now teaching at Columbia. Could you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

Yeah I I love that and that's another that's another gig that I stumbled into um but I am teaching a legal ethics intensive for uh Columbia they they send kids down to DC students down to DC for a semester and place them into agencies and nonprofits and things like that. And they're there for the whole semester they're they're working and getting credit and I get them for a week at the beginning of the semester and a week at the end and we talk about legal ethics for three hours a day for a week.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

What a great I mean opportunity to really shape these attorneys in the making right and you get to teach for Columbia in Washington DC um and I assume like they have all kinds of interesting insights as you know basically apprenticing attorneys with the different organizations that they're working for in DC there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Yeah seeing seeing uh the the younger attorneys to be perspective on the profession and their perspective on government and their perspective on the interactions and decision making processes that that um have uh have impact in all of our lives because they're in DC is really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Yeah you're really seeing attorneys across the spectrum of their career span right now at the at the front end uh with these law students and then you know through the remainder of their career with your your clients that you're coaching.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

So Ben as we get ready to wrap up here like any parting words of wisdom that you know individuals out there that maybe are you know considering how a coach could help them any any thoughts for folks out there you know that are in the grind right now and you know what you've learned how you know and I I know that uh this this isn't anything that can be summarized in 30 seconds or anything like that. It's something that take like you said you got to do the work. It takes a lot of time. But any thoughts that you have for those folks out there listening?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

I think like like your your buddy um said at your morning workout, um working with a coach can can really give you the insight, the assistance, the perspective that you need to solve a hard problem. And whether that's your career trajectory or the conversation you have to have with an associate tomorrow to tell them that they're fired or they need to improve or it's the conversation the pitch you have to make to a client and and how you're going to navigate that with your co-counsel who's going to be there and try to uh you know steal the business for his uh for his office um all of those things benefit from a conversation with a coach who can help you see that problem from a different perspective and it I know it doesn't sound like magic and it's not magic but it is pretty amazing um the the impact that a single conversation can have and certainly a sustained conversation over six or 12 months like I do with my folks um the impact can be dramatic.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Well hey thanks a ton uh for what you're doing out there to help others Ben really appreciate it thank you for coming on today's show really enjoyed our conversation and for those of you out there that are listening if you'd please give the show a five star review and if invite folks to join our LinkedIn group that helps it uh make easier make it easier for others to find us thank you for listening to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast where we continue to serve together you've been listening to the Military Veterans in Law podcast from the Civil and Criminal Defense Team at Collins and Lacy Law Firm in South Carolina with your host Jared Fostnecker.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

For more information visit Collins and Lacy dot com not associated with the United States government or any of the military branches. All statements on the podcast are made in a personal capacity