Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Thousands of military veterans across the globe serve in the legal field. The purpose of this podcast is to create a community to leverage that network to help each other navigate our careers in the legal field. Collectively, the military veterans legal community has an enormous amount of experience and knowledge which can be used to help find positions for veterans in the legal field, help veterans grow their legal practices, and help us all serve our communities.
Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Kurt Perhach: Corporate Counsel, Lindbergh Kidnapping Litigator
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Kurt spent five years on active duty, including a deployment to Iraq with 18th Airborne Corps. Kurt currently serves as a Senior Counsel for West Pharmaceutical Services, as a Colonel in the U.S. Army Reserve, and, quite interestingly, as counsel in a case seeking to identify the perpetrators in the 94-year old mystery involving the kidnapping and murder of Charles Lindbergh’s baby.
For moving to the pharmaceutical industry, currently as a senior council and ethnic clients officer for West Pharmaceutical Services in Exton, Pennsylvania, as a colonel in the U.S. Army Reserve, and quite interestingly, as counsel in a case seeking to identify the kidnapper and murderer in the 94-year-old mystery involving Charles Lindbergh's baby. Welcome to the show, Kurt.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thanks so much, Jerry. Really excited to talk to you and all the listeners out there.
SPEAKER_02Man, we got a lot of ground to cover. Like you've done a ton. It's like you've lived three lives in one, man. You know, it's funny.
SPEAKER_01When I was 24 and started basic training, my drill sergeant suggested that to me. He asked me if I was forced gump because I was already a tank officer, flew airplanes a bunch of times, and did a lot of other things. But uh yeah, it's it's it's all good.
SPEAKER_02Good grief. I so the the flying airplanes part, I wasn't even tracking that either. So now you grew up in central Jersey, right?
SPEAKER_01I grew up right in central Jersey, Middlesex County. So kind of a straight line between Center City, Philly, and Manhattan. And like I was right in the middle of the straight line. What what town in Middlesex? Middlesex Borough, very tiny town in the upper northeast corner of Middlesex uh County.
SPEAKER_02And so growing up in Middlesex, like, how did the Army, was the Army on your radar at all?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, heck no. Uh Middlesex Borough is a very uh was was a very drug-infested town, um, not a lot of service there, and it was the kind of town that as a kid growing up in, I knew I had to get out of this place and see what else is out there. And every time I go back there to visit my father, inevitably, if we go to a restaurant, someone's gonna recognize me. So it's one of the towns that like nobody leaves.
SPEAKER_02I hear that. Like I grew up in a town of 1800 in in Ripley, Ohio, and uh I always joke that it's one in, one out, right? Like uh somebody died, we're allowed another birth, you know? Like and that's I kind of love going back there because you know, it everything stays familiar. It's a farming community, it's a it's a good place to be. Uh how big was your how big was your high school graduating class? Well, it was three neighboring towns that all went together, so it was a graduating class of about a hundred. Okay. All right, that's bigger than me. I I had 141, so I think you got me there. Huge metropolis, right? Like there in Middleborough or Middlesex borough. Um tell us the story about getting arrested when you were 13. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um uh I played baseball my whole childhood and um 13-year-old tournament at the end of our second loss in a round robin tournament, a bunch of kids went into a sports factory and asked me if I wanted to go, and I said no. And they said, Come on, just come with us. A bunch of us are gonna go in. Nope, not doing that. Come on, you're chicken, you're a wuss, you're you're a wimp if you don't join us. So, of course, I joined, and that particular night, somebody fell through the ceiling, got hurt, and then uh the police showed up, and uh lo and behold, I was arrested. I had to go to uh court, juvenile court in New Brunswick, Middlesex County's uh headquarters. And uh yeah, I sat before a judge, age 14, uh 13 and a half, almost 14, and his judge said, I don't understand this, you're an honor roll student, what are you doing? I said, Your honor, I I will never again succumb to peer pressure. And uh so I was on the equivalent of pretrial diversion for a year. Um, every single security clearance that I've ever had, I've disclosed that. And the last three, the investigator said, First of all, there's no records of this, so you can stop telling us about this. I said, you know what? It hasn't hurt me as an attorney, it hasn't hurt me as a father or a human being. Uh, I'm good to keep sharing my adventures with people. And and and and the bottom line is don't succumb to peer pressure as a teenager. So that was your takeaway from it. That was my takeaway from it. I was getting picked on a lot as a kid, and um, I wanted to fit in. I did this really dumb thing, got caught red-handed, and then all through high school, I did not value the opinion of others. I was gonna go my own way, and I ended up going my own way.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the takeaway wasn't, hey, I kind of like it here in the courtroom. Uh, you know, this is a place I'm gonna keep on coming back to. Like this transaction.
SPEAKER_01No, I got grounded that whole summer. I spent the entire summer reading books, floating in my father's backyard pool, and uh, and just kind of going off doing my own thing. Um, and kind of coming back to your earlier question, um, I started thinking about service and how to make up and do, you know, amends for this type of behavior at a certain point.
SPEAKER_02And you said, you know, you you decided that you were going to go your own way. So in high school, what were you thinking your own way was?
SPEAKER_01Um I was I was an anomaly, and I was an anomaly through high school. I still am a bit of an anomaly. I was both the student council president, junior class president. Uh I was the head of the chess club, and I would sit in the cafeteria with the football players and teach them how to play chess. So I had like a broad mixture of friends, and that also went into college as well. But I was always all over the place as far as social norms where I really did not care whether somebody liked me or not. Um, and yeah, that that's really the lesson there as a teenager.
SPEAKER_02And and so obviously you you did well in school from that point on because you ended up going to William and Mary, and you know, you get to William and Mary. What was it at that point in time that what were you majoring in? What did you think you were going to do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh I was a history major and I was the president of the William and Mary Chess Club and decided to start teaching people at a local jail called the Virginia Peninsula Regional Jail, directly across the street from Bush Gardens. Uh I was I taught them two in two and a half years I spent teaching uh people in jail how to play chess, and I wanted to see if the game of chess could help people's lives who have made mistakes, uh, walking through things like logic, patience, cause and effect relationships, because I had made a mistake and uh wanted to, and the game of chess helped me overcome the uh my uh disinterest in fitting in with others and kind of going my own way. So what introduced you to chess? Uh I started playing as a very young kid. I was six or seven. I had a next-door neighbor from the Philippines who played chess, and uh he taught me, we were really close, uh good guy, moved to Florida, and uh started, yeah. I started playing young. I played in a lot of competitive tournaments in New Jersey growing up. I played at the Manhattan Chess Club, and um and then I played in the Pan Am games for William and Mary. Uh I was very into chess at a certain point. And then I got I kind of got to a point where I said, you know, I don't have the patience to spend four or five hours a day on this game. I'm good. I'm good being good at this game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But you know, I think that's such an interesting thing that you know what it takes to be good at chess is the ability to concentrate and move out distractions, which is becoming you know so critical today where we've got all this technological distraction going on. And you know, like raising kids, that's you know, one of the things that I think about is like, okay, how do I, you know, with a Pascal that's that said, you know, one of the tough things in life is to sit in a room by yourself for an hour or something like that. You know, that that's one of my man's fundamental problems. And you know, and that's all about just the ability to focus on an issue and think through it. Um and so, like with my voice, I'm always thinking about, okay, how do I train this in them? And so much of it is just go sit in a room with this book and nothing else and read. Um, and so it sounds like that was a skill that you developed from a very young age.
SPEAKER_01I I think that's a really interesting perspective. Um, yes, I would say for me that's that was the case for others and for you with your boys. We don't really ever know what is going on in somebody's head. We don't really ever know what people are thinking. We don't really ever know how that book might affect your kids or how succumbing to peer pressure might impact somebody. But what we do know is um what gives us purpose and what helps us in our journey. So for me, the idea of both seeing if I could improve people's lives who've made mistakes made me feel better. Um altruistically, while I was helping others, and it made me fall in love with teaching, and I became passionate about teaching others and being being a mentor to help people that made mistakes.
SPEAKER_02And how far into William and Mary were you when you decided you wanted to teach?
SPEAKER_01I was a sophomore, so my um towards the end of second year, I started writing letters to the mayor of Williamsburg, um, the governor of Virginia, both senators, and I was persistent because I didn't hear anything back. And then I think I want to say it was around February of my um second semester sophomore year, I received a letter from the warden of the Virginia Peninsula Regional Jail, Mr. Perhatch, happy to bring you over here, volunteer, not getting paid. Um, so then what we worked out was three hours every Friday uh while I was there in school. Because of course, during the summers, I home was New Jersey. I went home in uh every summer break and winter break. Um it was awesome. So I went there, I did it for almost two and a half full years.
SPEAKER_02And then upon graduation, did you become a teacher immediately or what did that look like?
SPEAKER_01I did. So Teach for America came to campus for um first semester senior year, and many of us applied. I remember the interview process pretty well. Um they accepted two of us from the class, and then when we got when I got the acceptance packet to teach to join Teacher America, uh they wanted you to preferentially rank where you want to be kind of like a guy core, you know, your wake list of where you want to go.
SPEAKER_02And uh, that's really interesting. I I can see a lot of retired Jags being like, hey, this is a way for me to continue to give back, and uh, you know, I've got my pension, so you know, I can live on a teacher's salary and have my summers off and still help out a lot of kids. Now definitely.
SPEAKER_01It was so fun. It was honestly so fun. I'm so so rewarding, and I'm really grateful that I had that opportunity.
SPEAKER_02So, how do you end up making the jump from teaching to the Army?
SPEAKER_01So, my second year of Teach for America, uh, school started on Monday, September 10th, 2001, and um I was doing Mr. Perhatch's top 10 uh behavioral rules for seven and eight-year-olds in third grade. Second day, uh, with the old flip phone, if you remember that bad boy. Um, I had my flip phone turned off in my desk.
SPEAKER_02You know, my boys are starting back to school August 5th. September 10th sounds a lot more reasonable, like a whole month later.
SPEAKER_01Well, this is the difference between this is the difference between South Carolina education and new and New Jersey education.
SPEAKER_02Um We need a month extra. Is that what we're doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, or or it's too hot, one or the other. Um it was the second day of my second year teaching, and um around I want to say 9.08, 907, I received my first interruption. Mr. Perhatch, please send Khadisha to the front office with her belongings. Mr. Perhatch, please send Tahim, etc., etc. By lunchtime, there were three kids in my classroom. Now, the the previous year, my first year teaching, I had a similar thing happen where we had a gang shooting outside of the school. So I knew something bad happened, but I had absolutely no idea what happened at all. And as an elementary school teacher, you're with the kids all day until there's a break period, and it just so happens, marking period one second year teaching, Tuesday was not a non-break day. So I walked the three kids to lunch, I went back into my classroom, and the art teacher who I golfed with came in crying hysterically, and he said, I can't get a hold of my wife. And I said, What are you talking about? And and he said, What are you talking about? I didn't know at all. I had no knowledge of what happened. There was no interruption on the loudspeaker, nobody said anything. I had no idea. And then it was this really weird, surreal feeling because as the crow flies, Newark, New Jersey is extremely close to um the World Trade Center. When I drove home from school at about 2 45, I didn't see a single car on the road at all. And even though I could see smoke billowing past me looking towards the city, it didn't really register what happened until I turned on the TV back at uh back home and saw the plane. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And is it is there a park in Newark like on a hill where you can see the skyline, Manhattan skyline?
SPEAKER_01There's a couple different places, yeah, there's a couple places in Newark where you can see the skyline. But but New Jersey, especially in that area, is relatively flat. So you as long as there's no tall buildings in the way, you can see the New York City skyline pretty clearly in many different places. Um I spent about six months of some real deep soul searching and uh many engaging conversations with friends that I valued. And what I kept coming back to is when my grandchildren asked me about 9-11, what is my answer going to be? What am I gonna tell them about 9-11? Because up until this point, I was a 24-year-old talker. I'd talked and talked, and I hadn't really actually done anything. And um I wanted to serve. So when I made that uh that decision and contacted the recruiter, it was really funny. Was uh, you know, Kurt, even though you have a master's degree, uh, if you want, you can enlist and do the OCS option. Uh so I did that and I didn't really do any research. I took the ASDAB. And um and then uh I ended up doing an offer in an OCS enlistment through the ASDAB. Um, came home, told my mother that I just signed up to join the army. She slapped me across the face and started shaking me hysterically. How could you do this without talking to me? I said, Mom, a country was just attacked, I gotta serve. So um and and then and in hindsight, it was sort of a reaction to other things, which my life up until this point had been a reaction to other things. So I'd been arrested as a 13-year-old, and then as a reaction to that, I didn't really care about people's thoughts of me. And um this was another reaction within my life, uh, which I have subsequently done deep dives in. Um, and it's interesting that a lot of people have different paths that are zigzags. Mine's a zigzag for sure, but 9-11 um is what propelled me to join the army.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so by what date are you starting basic training?
SPEAKER_01Uh I started basic training on June 7th, 2002, uh, Fort Still, Oklahoma. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And uh nine months later, finished the school year and off to Fort Sill. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And the day before, on uh D-Day's anniversary, I asked my father to just grab a set of clippers and and you know, cut my hair on a zero because I didn't want to have to deal with anything when I showed up there and I wanted to fit in. Uh so yeah. So then the summer of 2002, basic training. I was the last person to zero my weapon and qualify for uh during week four of basic rifle uh rifleman skills. I was about two hours away from being recycled uh to stay an extra two weeks. Uh and then I would have started law school two weeks later. Uh so it was quite quite an interesting challenge for me being 24 going through basic training.
SPEAKER_02So that's right, because you enlisted in the National Guard at this time. Correct. And at the same time, you had been applying for law school.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I'd already been accepted into Hofstra Law School, which is where I had accepted and was going to start. Uh I was going to start on August 20th. And um, as it turns out, graduation from BASIC was August 15th. And if I would have been recycled, I would have missed the first, you know, nine, ten days of law school.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And how did law school what made you decide that that's what you wanted to do?
SPEAKER_01I think I knew I wanted to go to law school um when I was younger. So um the after I was arrested um for stealing when I was 13 and spent that summer floating on my father's uh uh uh raft in his backyard pool reading books, I read a lot of books, and one of them that jumped out at me was a book on the the Lindbergh kidnapping case. And um that's a whole rabbit hole that I warn any listener to uh I caution anybody against going down because it's it's a soap opera upon a soap opera upon a soap opera. But what the takeaway for me from this book, Kidnap, that I read, was this is a really bad lawyer who's defending this descendant, and uh I'm pretty sure that anybody could do a better job. And I think I could do a better job defending and helping this poor person who uh was executed under under circumstantial evidence.
SPEAKER_02Very interesting. Okay, so let's circle back to to Lindbergh here in a little bit. So you get you get to law school, you're in the National Guard, and are you planning on what are you planning on? Doing after law school?
SPEAKER_01I didn't have a plan, but the plan that I thought I had in mind was I was going to be an education lawyer. And I really was passionate about continuing to serve in uh whether it was through the Newark Board of Ed as their staff lawyer or working as one of the union lawyers on behalf of teachers. That was really where my passion was, especially through first year of law school. And that that was sort of the plan at that point. And then how did you spend your summers? First year summer, I did work at a reinsurance firm in Greenwich, Connecticut, and hated every second of it. Second as a summer between 2L and 3L was the same place where I spent between 3L in the bar working at an estates planning firm uh in Long Island. Loved the people, loved the client interactions, knew I was helping folks with you know challenging decisions, and I really enjoyed that. Now at the same time, of course, part of being in the guard, I'd have to still play the weekend warrior, um, drive once a month to Seagirt, New Jersey for the OCS program, which was almost a two-year-long program down the Jersey Shore. Um particularly different seasons, like the summertime, anytime from May to October, the traffic between central Long Island and the Jersey Shore is insane and could take up to four hours, even though it's 88 total miles. But um I there there were no excuses at all. You could not miss a drill. So I had a property exam the next morning uh in December, uh, and I explained to my TAC officer, is there any way I can leave cut out on Saturday night or early Sunday? Are you serious? Do you want to be an officer in the Army? I said, uh yes, sir. Well, you're not leaving early. So it was quite a juggling.
SPEAKER_02It's like, come on, man, give me an RST. Like uh exactly. I want to be an officer, but I I also don't want to fail out of law school. So, what do you end up doing once you graduate?
SPEAKER_01I graduate, I asked to uh be uh a uh uh commissioned armor officer. I really enjoyed um the tank simulators. I had to get a tank waiver because I'm I'm six feet tall. Um uh loved every minute of it. That summer was Hurricane Katrina, so that was 2005, and a bunch of us from the Jersey Guard were mobilized. Um and then I found out uh that same month of August that the um my particular tank unit was going to be uh deploying to a uh sorry, sorry, I am actually skipping a year now. Hurricane Katry was the summer before, which is when I found out uh we were gonna mobilize and deploy for a year, six months after the bar exam in January of 2006. So then when the JAG recruiter came at uh the first uh semester as a 3-0, by this point I already knew I was gonna deploy as a tank officer after the bar exam. And so um it was a logical decision to go active duty as a judge advocate versus taking the bar exam, doing maybe temp work for five, six months, deploying for a year as a tank officer, then coming back trying to be a lawyer.
SPEAKER_02So perfectly logical decision to go active duty at that point. Okay, so then you go active duty, JAG, and then Fort Bragg straight away?
SPEAKER_01Correct. 18th Airborne Corps, um, loved every second of it. We had a phenomenal class. Seven of us went down, five the corps, uh, two the division, and uh everybody was just solid, solid people.
SPEAKER_02And what'd you do in Iraq?
SPEAKER_01Uh I was one of the uh I was one of the targeters. So initially I was gonna be in charge of the jock, um, and then we we changed roles. So I ended up taking on the embedded position with the IO MISO um PSYOP targeting group. And so I sat directly adjacent to the one-star general in charge of that group at 18th Airborne Corps. Um the first, and folks might not know this, but those of us that have deployed obviously do. Before we kick indoors, drop bombs, anything like that, we're gonna have a legal review of the targeting packet. So I got to go to the collateral damage assessment class, walk through all of that stuff. The first three times that I uh informed the general that you don't have legal permission to do this operation tonight, which is which I was told, hey, hey, Captain, by the way, we're going tonight. I need you to check the box here and review this packet. Said, sir, uh you you have A B and you have A and B intelligence, and you needed C and D also. And I no, this is a no. And get me your you know uh cursing boss. So I at the time I I called Colonel Ayers and said, sir, they're not listening to me. Um they want to go tonight. They need C and D Intel. And each time Colonel Ayers said, uh, my captain is right, General. And uh after the third time of getting yelled at, it became a relationship where, all right, Jag, how do I how do I get my folks to go tonight? Like what do I need to do to make this happen? And so I spent a year doing that. It was a really interesting almost a year. Um uh deployed on my 30th birthday, January of 08, and then um came home um the day before Veterans Day of 2008. But um really awesome, awesome group.
SPEAKER_02I I deployed with Fifth Corps to Afghanistan and uh was involved in targeting a bit, and at the core level, it's really interesting to see you know the issues that make their way up, and depending on you know different things that are withheld at different levels, working through that. Um and so you come back from Iraq, you you finish your time at Bragg, and then you get back to New Jersey.
SPEAKER_01I do, I do, yeah. So I had told PPT and O, I've got to get out. My wife uh has moved back uh home. And uh, well, hold on, Kurt. Uh, we don't want you to get out. Is there something we could do? They offered me a teaching job at West Point, and I said, Thank you, honored because of my teaching background. Uh, that's too far away from where we want to live. Um, is there anything else? And then they said, How about Fort Monmouth? And I said, What's at Fort and Monmouth? And they said, Well, well, nothing, but you're in central New Jersey. I said, uh, great, sold. I'll I'll take it.
SPEAKER_02And and what was that? That how big is the OSJA at Fort Monmouth?
SPEAKER_01Uh three. There was a there was an SJA, uh uh uh who was a lieutenant colonel, a major, and then me, the captain.
SPEAKER_02Good deal. And so I assume with the shop that small, you guys are doing everything.
SPEAKER_01We did everything. I was a SASA, um, I uh ad law, chief of legal assistants, and um I'm sorry, we did have a separate legal assistance office, but as uniformed soldiers, there were three of us doing everything. The guy that I replaced, who I'm still very close with, was very bummed out because he had hoped to sort of he'd already done two years there and wanted to retire as a captain from Fort Monmouth and was hoping to get two more years there in uniform. And I said, Well, what do you what are you doing here? He goes, Man, this is a sleepy post. I don't do anything. Like I like hanging out here. And I said, All right, well, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Jag Corps assigned me to this spot.
SPEAKER_02But what units are on Monmouth? Because I know the West Point Prep School, I believe, used to be there. And then it uh it's now currently co-located with West Point. That's right. And what what is Ccom?
SPEAKER_01Ccom is uh the head of communications, which they moved to Aberdeen, Maryland. Um, and uh the prep school gave me my most challenging case, which was an ugly he said, she said in a third floor uh closet, and many witnesses. But um, yeah, uh not a lot happens as far as MJ, but um I I enjoyed my time there, had a really cool court martial that uh Clamo and other folks helped me out with on different things. And um the jurisdiction at the time under 27-10 for Fort Monmouth was huge because they had Fort Taunton, they had Fort Hamilton, uh Fort Dix, because Fort Dix was all reservist basically. So it was a really large uh geographical footprint.
SPEAKER_02And so you leave active duty and you take a GS employment uh litigation attorney position at Picatinny Arsenal. Now, I think some people out there may think we're making up locations at this point. I don't know what percentage of people in the Army have heard of Picatinny Arsenal. What where is this? What's going on at Picotin's Army?
SPEAKER_01Let me just tell you, those of you that don't know, you should look it up because a lot of cool historical things were created there, including night vision goggles. Um Picatinny Arsenal is in north central New Jersey in Morris County. It's the third largest employer in Morris County, New Jersey, and it mainly is researchers, engineers, and scientists. So we modify things like flares there. We we improve things like um 105 uh rounds. Um it's mainly um weapon systems to help troops. There's a there's a um uh a test mountain range up there where we get to fire off all kind of cool things, and uh it is a very, very interesting place with very smart people that work at. But you're right, most people have never heard of it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I mean, you you enjoyed it enough that you stuck around for seven years there.
SPEAKER_01Seven years as as the SAUSA chief of legal assistants, chief of ad law, um, did all the OGE 450s, um became a labor and employment lawyer from the Army. The the shop was very small. It was mainly contracts, it is currently still mainly uh contracts focused. The general law shop was very, very tiny. And um I I loved it. And partly because the people there uh made it such a great spot.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and then so it's from there that you go in-house, is that right? That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01So so what happened was September of 2017, after I'd been there for almost seven years, I was passed over after my boss retired. I was passed over to BGS 15, and that night I applied for two roles through LinkedIn, and I had this sort of um, what do I do next moment? Because I wasn't happy. And one of those roles was at Novartis Pharmaceuticals for an employment and compliance role, and um just a weird twist of fate, that role had been posted for six months and uh had been taken down, reposted, taken down, reposted. And the woman who hired me, who is one of my lifelong mentors, coaches, friends, her father taught in Newark, um, her father served in the military, um, her father worked in a jail to help people in a jail, and all of these things just started clicking that uh really made it a perfect fit. And she I'm sorry, she was the one hiring? She was the hiring manager who hired me from Piccadilly Arsenal. Her father was a uh was a teacher, and he worked in a in a jail system and had a passion for service members. And so as it turned out, it was the perfect role, reposted at the perfect time because she had just reposted it within 24 hours of me applying for it. And uh and so the stars all aligned.
SPEAKER_02So that's wild. I mean, we've got so many transitioning uh GAGs who want to go in-house and you know, are trying to network their way into these positions. And it seemed like it seems like by fluke uh you know, you got lucky. I mean, granted, you had the skills and everything to to check the boxes, but it wasn't through networking that got you the position. It was fortuitous that you had somebody there who was veteran-friendly.
SPEAKER_01Um yes, to a large extent. Uh, I will say that when I got called by talent for the for the in-person interviews, I did reach out to my network to see if anybody knew these folks at Novartas. And one mentor did, and he gave me some really good coaching um suggestions and um talked to me about some of the people that I would be interviewing with and definitely helped me. But but yes, as far as um getting the interview, getting in the door, it was a uh lucky, flukish thing.
SPEAKER_02Nice. And what were your skills from the Jag Corps that transitioned to that first in-house role?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I and I I've listened to a lot of the other listeners here, and you guys do such a great job, you do such a great job. We all bring um so many different attributes of timeliness, attention to detail, willingness to do and try different things, willingness to raise our hand and ask for help when we need help. Um for me, I think it was a combination of um the right place in my life, the right timing, the right role. They needed a litigator, they needed somebody with employment law experience. I'd been doing that at that point for nine, seven years, um, nine years as a litigator. But um I it's the kind of thing that when I look back on, I'm eternally grateful because I I understand the struggle that a lot of my friends um have and a lot of folks that you and I both know have. And I would say don't give up, keep plugging away, keep exploring the networks. There's plenty of people out there like you and me, and many, many, many others that can help make an introduction, make a connection. Um, and especially if you're spending, you know, if some of the listeners are spending their days on LinkedIn trying to find something else, there's other ways to do that. And having talent acquisition for several companies now uh in my network, um, I I I understand how the game is played and I understand what it takes to get your foot into that door for that interview.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I got a couple follow-ups there. You said that there's other ways to do it other than perusing LinkedIn. What what do you recommend?
SPEAKER_01Asking people who are there, hey, can I have five minutes? Everybody likes to talk about themselves. So you are connected to somebody who works for Coca-Cola. Hey, John, I know we don't really know each other. We're connected on LinkedIn. Do you mind if I pick your brain for five minutes? I'm a veteran. Done. Do that to a couple people. I guarantee you you're gonna get responses where somebody says, absolutely, Joe, absolutely, John, I'll give you five minutes. No problem at all. Um, people want to generally help. If you ask for 30 minutes, that's a different story. But if you ask for somebody for five minutes, can I ask for five minutes? I really saw this job at Coca-Cola. I think I'm perfect for. Um, do you mind if I pick your brain for a few minutes? People generally want to help.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know what's been interesting too is like our group has grown to over 1200 now, I think, or right around there here on LinkedIn. And so like I've had several people send me messages just saying, hey, that's kind of what I'm interested in. And just by seeing all the different people who have joined, I've been able to help connect a couple of dots. And so by all means, you know, folks, if you're out there listening and you're looking for a lead, um, you know, feel free to shoot me a message or anybody that's in our group, shoot them a message to hey that's what I'm interested in, or just pop up to the group at large and say, hey, this is what I'm looking for. Anyone else that's out there got a lead or somebody you can put me in contact with, because that's the purpose of the group. You know, if if people weren't willing to participate, they wouldn't be part of the group.
SPEAKER_01100% could not agree more. And and to follow that up, something that I just brought up in Charlottesville the last time you and I were there, we do a great job of keeping talent in the JAG Corps, but when people say it's time for me to leave, okay, bye, good luck. We wish you all the best. We have a great opportunity on JAGC Net and a great opportunity on our networks accessible to everybody in the JAG Corps. These are the folks in-house, here's who they are, these are the folks in law firms, here's what their area of specialties uh is. Please feel free to reach out to them, whether it's based on geography or area of expertise or anything like that. The JAG Corps needs to start stepping up their game and doing that type of thing also.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I mean, I think one of the great things about the LinkedIn group, though, is you know, like there's we're getting to the point where there's so many people out there that are joining. What I what I wanted to replicate was like my West Point alumni uh Facebook group where people just come on there and they're happy to just randomly say, hey, I want to be a GOAT herder in Northwest South Dakota. And the group is big enough that they don't have to call through, you know, the thousands and thousands of people out there, they just put their request out there, and somebody got somebody for you. Um, hey, how can we organize this? Um, I think there's enough people out there now that we have people. So whatever these folks are looking for. I think that we've got the group that they can throw it out there to the commerce and they should be connected. A lot of these in-house council roles. They're looking for people with transactional backgrounds. But what was the role where you they uh were interested in your litigation background? Because I think a lot of Jags with their MJ experience would be interested to hear how the you made the transition from litigation to an in-house role.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's how you market yourself, and and e each of us has to own the court-martial experiences that we had, um, how that's how that's equivalent to real-world depositions, real-world litigation holds, how we utilize modern technology with AI tools that that we use, um, and and pitching that and and making sure that it's that it's translatable. Because uh I know you know very well, like I do, when somebody looks at a military resume for a civilian corporation, they don't know what they're looking at. They don't know what a brigade is, they don't know what a battalion is. We have we have an extra um uh challenge to kind of dumb down all of the great things that we do as judge advocates to uh to make it uh to commercialize it and and make it marketable for civilians. So pitching, I did 60 court martials, for example, into I defended um this organization, you know, in many disputed contests between X-state and X State, um, just kind of selling it in a in a way that's more marketable is one is one helpful uh pitch. The thing that got me in in-house was not litigation experience, it was employment law experience. And so when one of the two employment lawyers in the general law department at Picatinny Arsenal suggested that he take me under his wing because he was going to retire within a year or two, uh, and would I be willing to learn employment law, as I was the SAUSA, the chief of legal assistant of myself, the chief of ad law by myself, uh my answer was yes. And so um always say yes when you have an opportunity to learn and grow in a different area. I didn't know the first thing about employment law. And then um as a GS, the Army sent me to um all of the EEOC courses in DC, taught me how to be an employment lawyer, and then I had a huge volume of employment law experience for for those seven years of Picatinny Arsenal. That's what got me in the door in the in-house world, and uh uh in my opinion, other than the litigation experience.
SPEAKER_02So it was the you had to transition from federal employment law and doing federal administrative hearings to then doing civilian employment law. What was that transition like?
SPEAKER_01Um similar in that EEO is EEO. Um of course there is no MSPB in the real world, but dealing with the nuances of problem employees and problem supervisor, challenging supervisors and problem employees, that's everywhere. So when when you just make those causal connections of, you know, we have a really bad supervisor who doesn't know um that what the email he just sent was wrong for the following reasons. Um people need coaching, training, help. And um, and so um that opportunity was was really, really helpful to have that background of all the challenges that I had in the Army. Again, you have to market yourself, pitch it with confidence in that the training we get as Judge Abbott. Could lead to the GS job, could lead to the in-house role, but it has to be a story that is relatable to the person sitting across from you because the talent folk, uh, talent personnel sitting across from us at a lot of these organizations in-house, their entire job is to talk to people for 10 minutes, uh, 10-minute clips and see who stands out enough to bring in for an interview. So you've got to have your elevator pitch down packed real quick. This is who I am, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then move on, give boom, boom, boom examples of what you've done. Uh, because their attention spans is limited because 10 minutes later they're going to talk to somebody else that has, you know, uh similar background.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's a a great insight right there is being able to put together a quick synopsis of who you are, what you're bringing to the table. Um it's kind of like the beginning of an opening statement. You know, do you have that tagline up front that's going to draw the jury's attention? And you've got to think about this the same way when you're going into an interview. What's your tagline to get their their attention? And then what's the story that you're telling, you know, like about yourself, and ultimately making that argument as to why you're a good fit for where you're going in. So what's the skills, it's the skills that we've been taught, and then relating them to where we're trying to go. So last month when me and you were back at the JAG school, we uh walked over to lunch at your alma mater, University of Virginia's Darden School, uh Darden Business School, where you got your executive MBA. Uh tell folks how that came about and your experience uh pursuing your MBA while practicing.
SPEAKER_01So first week of at Novartis, after um I had gotten rejected for the GS-15 promotion at Picatinny Arsenal, uh about 50 days after that happened, I started at Novartis. And um that Friday, first fright first week Friday, I met with the president of my division for a short 15-minute one-on-one, which turned into an hour with lunch. And during this conversation, he said, Um, you know, Kurt, you're pretty interesting. And then he or he asked his admin to get us food. And as we're talking, he asked me if I had ever considered going to business school. And I said, No, uh uh you hired me to be a lawyer. Like and I I actually took like insult to it at first, and and I said, I'm I'm confused. Like, do you want me to be a lawyer for you? Like, I'm very what does that mean? And he didn't drop it, and he kept telling me there's more to you than being a lawyer. And I said, I'm actually like legitimately confused. So now fast forward another year and a half of periodic meetings and uh lunch a couple times, he said to me directly, Kurt, I'm gonna we're gonna pay for you to go get your MBA. Uh so pick a school. Wow. And I said, Wow, that's awesome. So um there were only two logical choices for me. There was um Seton Hall, which was not far from my job and home in New Jersey, and the program did not work with my reserve schedule, and um and UVA was by far and away the most logical choice that I had, which fit perfectly. So I started in August of 2019 in a global program where we were supposed to go to six different countries between August 2019 and graduating May 2021. Um, we spent 10 days in Brazil in November of 2019, and our we had a trip uh to Shanghai and Beijing in March of 2020, which was canceled the second week of January of 2020.
SPEAKER_02So you were ahead of the COVID curve and you knew what was coming. Like, yeah, like a a lot of us were maybe uh uh oblivious well into March, right? But in and so in January, you had the heads up as what was what was coming down the chute.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and there were a couple of other reservists and two active duty folks in my program. UVA is a phenomenal school, the Darden Business School is phenomenal for the GI Bill and for veterans. And uh we had to get special clearance uh uh to to go to China, um, ran my background check and everything through through the legal command. Um it was I was very excited to be able to go to a lot of different countries, which never actually happened.
SPEAKER_02Um so okay. COVID aside, what is what is the structure of these EMBA programs, these executive MBA programs, and how can practicing attorneys fit it into their schedules?
SPEAKER_01Tuesday and Thursday night between um 6.30 p.m. and 8.30 p.m. online for two hours. When you start the program, you are in Charlottesville for eight straight days, getting your seminars, getting your team together, um, and then after those eight days, once a month, kind of like a reservist, you would do two days at um at the Darden uh building, which is roughly across from the Key Bridge, in um right outside of um uh right outside of DC. Uh the top two floors of the same building where the ABC studios are in, in Roslyn, is where uh the Darden Business Business School is. And then um you do two days once a month, and then every single Tuesday and Thursday you're on my classes.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, when I was at Fort Bragg, I actually had a roommate for a while who did the executive MBA at UNC Chapel Hill, and I know we've had some Jags go through that program also. So that these programs seem like quite a good fit for folks, you know, potentially accelerating their careers, you know, post-active duty. Um how has it helped you?
SPEAKER_01Tremendous learnings, tremendous uh growth opportunities, the ability to think outside the box in a different way than as a lawyer, as far as things like operations and problem solving, and looking at decision-making, the decision-making process in a different way than what we do as soldiers, um, owning the decision in a different way than as a lawyer. So, as a lawyer, of course, we are we're the advisor, we're not generally the decision maker. We advise the commander, here's what we think you should do and why. When you're in business school, um, you're put in the position where you get to make the decision and you own that decision, and here's why this is the decision. So um you're surrounded by folks from all the backgrounds, accountants, um, CEOs of companies, just all different types of background, um, really tremendous growth opportunities. I would highly recommend the Dart Business School to any anybody interested in continuing to grow, continuing to learn. As an adult learner, our brains learn very, very differently, and being back in school uh in an environment uh like that is just a it's it's a tremendous opportunity.
SPEAKER_02So you were in class four hours a week. How much work were you doing outside of class?
SPEAKER_01Uh you and I both went to the war college. There is uh probably double the work to get an MBA than going to the war college. Uh so I would say on an average week it was twenty five-ish hours a week. And then the benefit, yeah, it's it's rough.
SPEAKER_02It's rough. 20 hours of work? 20 hours of work outside of class? Correct. Correct. And is that team, is that a lot of that uh is a lot of that team projects?
SPEAKER_01Um both. So individual, you have to you are responsible. Uh Darden uses the Socratic method uh and they're famous for it. So if you get called on in so it's fair game to get called on in class for any single case study that they do. The case study method is what Darden is famous for along with the Socratic method. So if you didn't read the case and aren't prepared to answer questions from the professor, uh he's not he or she will not let up on you just because you say, I'm really sorry, professor, I didn't get around to it. They're gonna just stick with you for the next 10 minutes of your life in agonizing, um in an agonizingly grueling manner. So um it is very time consuming, but also you're relying on your seminar. And so I'm not a statistics person, I'm not a finance person. My battle buddies who are uh you know the data analytics person send me over the spreadsheet to help make the problem easier. So Jared opens up his own business to sell t-shirts and expects to sell 2,000 t-shirts, what size t-shirts should he make? And he could only order them in bulk um of 750 per batch from this company that he wants to use. Like you come up with the equation of how many different t-shirts Jared's gonna order based on size and what and so very interesting stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's brutal. And you know, you uh you can't say, well, I also have a full-time job and I'm in the reserves and I've got kids at home. That hey, kudos to you to grind your way through that and then get through that and then do war college. Like you're a massist, obviously.
SPEAKER_01It's gotta be bad timing though. What works for anybody? Uh or what what what works for every individual? And for me, it just so happened that I had just made lieutenant colonel in the reserves. I had an RDC job, um, which was not that time consuming on the reserve side, and it worked out well for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, kudos. I mean, that that's impressive to be able to do that. Um okay, so now what what is your current role at West Pharmaceuticals? Like, where is your focus there now?
SPEAKER_01Uh I'm the I'm the global head employment lawyer, and West is in 26 countries and six states. Um, so I handle every type of problem imaginable, including firing employees, um, hiring employees. So my bandwidth is um all of HR and HR services. And so that is talent acquisition, compensation for benefits. Um legal issue or strategic question gets bounced off of me from any of those business partners. Um Kurt, we really, really want to hire Jared. Uh he understood that we were gonna pay him $200,000 for this role. He's now asking us for $240. Uh, what do you think? Should we go forward or should we move on to our second candidate? Um uh Kurt, this person has a criminal background and you know uh got a DUI in 2018. Um do you think it's okay if we hire this person? Any type of question like that under the sun is in my portfolio. And then um performance improvement plans, discipline, all this stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's very interesting that the employment law trajectory that you started at Picatinny about 15 years ago, you know, has that you're still following that and that it has helped you out so much uh to get you where where you are today. Um now we we hit on it earlier, but coming back to the Lindbergh case, you read a book, kidnapped uh when you were 13, and it piqued the interest, your interest. And today you are a legal counsel involved in legal proceedings involving trying to figure out who kidnapped and murdered Charles Lindbergh's baby in 1932, I believe. That's correct. Um tell us how how how did this come about? How'd you get here?
SPEAKER_01I I was friends with the former attorney general of the state of New Jersey, um, and um a a person sent 15 ransom notes to Charles Lindbergh or his intermediaries, including one at the windowsill uh where this uh baby was taken from from a nursery, a second floor nursery window. Each one of these envelopes was opened with a letter opener by the New Jersey State Police. They're all available um at the New Jersey State Police Museum, and you can still see adhesive stuck to the backs of most of these envelopes. Um although there were 15 notes, there are currently 13 envelopes which had 13 of the notes inside of them on dis uh on display at the New Jersey State Police Museum. There's 10 stamps attached to those envelopes. And um I believe that somebody likely licked those stamps and likely licked the envelopes, and that DNA saliva is still available for forensic analysis. Um what's fascinating.
SPEAKER_02And and what's interesting is for those folks out there that it maybe it's been a little while, right? Charles Lindbergh, he was uh a military officer. He rose to the rank of brigadier general, but uh obviously famous for flying the spirit of St. Louis, which is in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C. now. Uh 3,600 miles from New York to Paris, 33 hours. I believe that was the first transatlantic flight. Is that right, Kurt?
SPEAKER_01Continuous transatlantic flight. There was an earlier one from Newfoundland over.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And so, I mean, huge star of his day, and his child was kidnapped and murdered. Um and so what is like who are you representing in this litigation?
SPEAKER_01There has been a large group in the Princeton area of academics, um, professors, authors that used to meet regularly at a restaurant called Conti's in Princeton. Uh, I've been friends with these folks now, many of them for over 20 years, and just as a kid, very curious like, what is this all about? Why is this case so interesting? Because it's the type of thing that when the more you know about the facts of this case, the more questions you have about it. Um and there's a lot of people, including the on-site police that night, March 1st, 1932, that were certain this involved multiple people, and um, and yet a man was executed uh as the lone kidnapper, tried and executed as the lone kidnapper on April 3, 1936. Um, the governor of New Jersey at the time, Governor Hoffman did not believe that this person did it alone. Um, multiple New Jersey governors who've looked at the evidence did not believe this person did it alone. And in 1981, Governor Brendan Byrne opened up the entirety of the New Jersey case file on this to the public under the right to know law, which later became the New Jersey Open Public Records Act, so that any member of the public can go in, hold, examine, look at any of these documents. Um, there was no such thing as forensic DNA analysis on October 9th, 1981, when Governor Byrne issued his executive order, which is still binding. If there was, I'm certain he would have examined for who would have ordered a forensic examination of these envelopes like he ordered the latter to be taken apart and like he ordered the handwriting to be analyzed. Um, because there wasn't, there was no DNA ever tested on these things, and there's an opportunity to find out who sent these envelopes to see if the right person was executed.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Like uh I mean that's great that you're involved in the original 20th century crime of the century, uh, still trying to get to the bottom of it. I'm gonna have to go watch a documentary now. And maybe later on down the road, we'll have to do a deep dive podcast into this. But I I know you've been on other podcasts, you know, talking about this case in depth. Uh for folks that are interested, what should they go listen to?
SPEAKER_01Uh the free press just launched a new podcast last week uh called the Lindbergh Conspiracies. Um really good overview. If anybody's into um True Crime Podcast, it's a six-part uh mini uh six-part podcast, pretty interesting. Gives all the different theories. Many of them are wack-adoo, kakamami type theories, but um it does really cover, it covers how fascinating this case is for sure.
SPEAKER_02And has your interview aired on it yet?
SPEAKER_01Uh I'm in five of the six episodes. I was briefly on episode one, I'm not on episode two. Um, I'm heavily featured in episode six uh because my current litigation uh against the New Jersey state police um to compel them to follow the exact the language of the executive order um is in the appellate division right now at the New Jersey State Appellate Uh Division.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah. Maybe maybe once we get to the litigation, had to bring you back on, man. Like one hour is not enough for peer match. Like you just got a lot going on.
SPEAKER_01Uh no, I think I I think I think I think we spent too much time talking about my childhood.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I mean it all played apart. That's like what uh what got you interested in Lindbergh in the first part. Um hey, as we're wrapping up here, any uh final words of wisdom you want to share with the folks out there listening? Please feel free to reach out to me.
SPEAKER_01Really honored. I would love to help any of your listeners, any of the 1200 of us as we expand. I I've already uh reached out to my network to make sure folks are aware of the other podcasts. I I very much enjoyed um some of the ones I've listened to. So we really live by the one team, one fight, and I'm happy to help any listener out there.
SPEAKER_02Hey, much appreciated, Kurt, and look forward to catching up with you in Charlottesville again this fall. For uh those folks out there listening, please give the show a five-star review and invite folks to join our LinkedIn group and our Facebook group to make it easier for people to find us and so that we can help as many veterans out there as possible. Thank you for listening to the Military Veterans and Law Podcast where we continue to serve together.
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