Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Thousands of military veterans across the globe serve in the legal field. The purpose of this podcast is to create a community to leverage that network to help each other navigate our careers in the legal field. Collectively, the military veterans legal community has an enormous amount of experience and knowledge which can be used to help find positions for veterans in the legal field, help veterans grow their legal practices, and help us all serve our communities.
Military Veterans In Law Podcast
Marc Armas: From Coast Guard Cutters to Complex Litigation
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Marc spent five years on active duty in the Coast Guard, including an assignment to Cartagena, Columbia. Since law school, Marc served as a prosecutor at the Queens District Attorney’s Office, an Assistant US Attorney in New Jersey, and is currently a partner at Avelino Law in New York City, where he is the Chair of the firm’s Litigation Practice Group.
As an assistant U.S. Attorney in New York City, and is currently a partner at the Avellino Law Firm in New York City, where he is the chair of the firm's litigation practice group. Welcome to the show, Mark. Chair, thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02I should be calling you, sir, because you certainly outrank me. Um but the only slight correction I'd have to your intro is that I was at the U.S. Attorney's Office in the District of New Jersey. There are there are folks that work at the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York who uh would not be happy about that that uh that slight confusion. But yeah, I was actually lucky enough to work at the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York as an intern in law school, which was probably, and I know we'll get into this later, but was probably the one of the most important experiences that I had professionally in my law school and even in my legal career in some ways, because the AUSAs that I met in that experience, three in particular, um, have continued to mentor me in every way, shape, and form in my legal career, including seeing two of them recently, actually, all three of them recently, and they all take very active roles in all the things that I'm doing now.
SPEAKER_01Great. And you know, kind of as we've discussed before the show, I'm jealous of all you Coast Guard guys, and you know, part of my motivation is just long-term to like brainwash my twin six-year-old boys Frankie and Mikey, that they need to go to the Coast Guard because you guys have it figured out. You got the good life at the coast, the good assignments. And so, you know, you grew up in Rye, New York, um, just outside of New York City. Yep. And so, you know, what were you into as a kid and how did that end up leading to you being going to the Coast Guard Academy?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, so I uh grew up in Rye, New York, fantastic small community that I still spend a lot of time in. And now I live down the street in Scarsdale, New York, which are, you know, both are just outside the city. Pretty much everyone who lives here is a commuter to the city. That's, you know, when we don't uh get an opportunity to work from home, which I think some other folks on here are probably parents of young children as well. So working from home is pretty much a disaster. So grew up there. I'm the youngest of six kids. My dad is a retired New York City police officer, and my mom worked for a nonprofit for Westchester County. And uh, you know, it was a wonderful upbringing being the youngest of six kids. As my mom says, I was raised by the dog in the television. Nobody was really paying attention to me at all. My oldest brother is 14 years older than me. Um, but all were pretty active. And my dad's a Marine uh served in the late 60s, early 70s. Uh, he was a reservist and you know on the MYPD at the same time. So, you know, service obviously was always in and around my house and my family, but it was certainly not anything that was like proactively encouraged. Uh everybody sort of did their own thing, but it wasn't really until my oldest, uh one of my older brothers, uh, applied to and went to the Naval Academy. So, uh, like many of us, he applied, was told he had some good qualities, but really needed to reform himself in many ways, and was sent to the Naval Academy Prep School in Newport, Rhode Island. And he was the first one to uh, you know, actually pursue active duty service through the Navy Naval Academy. And uh while he was there, our oldest brother, who's 14 years older than me, uh decided after college that he was going to join the Marines. So he went to Paris Island, uh, joined the Marines just like my dad, was very passionate about it. And I like to say that he has like three real loves in his life. Uh the Marines, number one, our high school football team number two, and then I'll put his family as number three. So he joined the Marines and then uh you know was very passionate about it, absolutely loved it, applied to and got into OCS. And uh so in that four-year period or five-year period where my my uh second brother was at the Naval Academy, my you know, oldest brother joined the Marines uh in Paris Island, applied to OCS, and got commissioned a few months before my my next brother who went to uh who went to Paris Island and ultimately OCS. I'm not saying they hold it against each other, but it does come up from time to time. So you know, at that point, I had a you know, my oldest brother was an infantry marine, infantry officer in the Marines. My next brother was a uh uh SWO in the Navy, and uh then my you know, of course, my my up-and-coming next brother uh was a you know pretty much a top high-end swimmer and was really interested in pursuing the Naval Academy as well. So, you know, at this point, this is just like in my house uh in every way, shape, and form, everything that's happening there. So my brother who's closeness closest to me, about four and a half years older than me, he applied to Navy and he got the same response that uh, you know, sure you may be good at swimming, but you need to really work on your academics, you're gonna go to the Naval Academy Prep School in Newport, Rhode Island. So I think I was a freshman in high school at the time, you know, watching him really up close go to NAPS, which is a really, really interesting place. And one of the things that was really interesting is that while both my oldest brother and then my brother who went in uh 1996 or 99, yeah, 96, 97, um, they had exposure to Coast Guard cadets and the Coast Guard Academy that you know I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Even though I grew up in Rye, which is right on the Long Island Sound, I really didn't have much exposure to the Coast Guard at all. And uh certainly not as like a military service. So it, you know, having experienced that and learned about it in that, you know, that's where I, you know, it was the early forms of the internet, you know, at that point. So uh I started searching about the Coast Guard Academy and the service in general, and I was, you know, always semi-impressed, but certainly not that interested in it. And uh my oldest brother had finished his five years on active duty in the Marines and he transitioned into the reserves. And then the next brother had finished his five years on active duty as a surface warfare officer, having served aboard a couple ships, and he was transitioning into business school in uh Seattle. And both were pretty adamant with me that they like weren't 100% in love with their active duty experience. Um, they felt like you know, they were cutting holes in the ocean or you know, doing, you know, my brother was in Okinawa, just Japan as a Marine, like, you know, it was it they loved it. They loved the experiences that they had, and of course they loved the people, but both were kind of like, ah, you know, it it was good, it was a good experience. You know, my brother Tommy was still in the in the reserves um and obviously very passionate about it, but they're the ones who first encouraged me to look into the Coast Guard.
SPEAKER_01And so Oh wow, that's interesting. The fact that they were Navy and Marines and like, hey, there's this other option out there for you. Exactly. There's another water service.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And so having that exposure to them and that, I decided to look into it. And that was my junior year in high school. And like many service academies, they have this summer introduction program where you can apply to this introduction program, get a little bit of an exposure to it. And just like you said, like when you get exposed to the Coast Guard and you see the types of things that they do and uh the types of missions that they handle, all the way from and you know, all the way from counter-narcotics and now a pretty robust counter-terrorism, um anti-piracy units, all the way to even the buoy tending. I spent time on the board of buoy tender, which is probably the hardest work, physical work I've ever done in my life. So, you know, when you get exposed to all that and the range of it and the you know, the both multi-mission but military service that you're you know could be a part of, you do become addicted to it. And uh, you know, it's Division III Athletics, which gave me an opportunity to play sports uh in college, even though, you know, if you were to ask me as a junior in high school, I still probably thought I could have started at Notre Dame. Um, but I'm 5'10, 150 pounds at the time, so there's absolutely no way that was gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Well, I saw that you were on the rugby team, so that's impressive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was lucky at the academy. I played my first two years, and when I say the academy, for everybody out there listening, that there's one academy that's the academy, and that's the Coast Guard Academy. Um, and you know, I may have offended some people there, but I'm okay with that. And uh so, you know, when I was at the academy, I was lucky enough to play football for two years, switched over to rugby, I played lacrosse, and you know, because of that, you get an opportunity to meet like so many different types of people. You know, rugby guys are an interesting group, but it's unique as service academies. We tend to do really, really well in rugby. And you know, the Air Force Academy, you know, won a zillion national championships, West Point and Navy. And so um I like to joke that the reason why we're so good at it is because like we are we take it seriously, whereas other schools just see it as like a drinking team that plays rugby from time to time.
SPEAKER_01Um so you know, I uh I yeah, the and I I I just gotta put in a little uh let folks know there's a book out there, Brotherhood, when West Point Rugby went to war uh that focuses on the class of 2002. Um a lot of great guys uh that were in my class that were on the rugby team and had you know very interesting careers afterwards. So for for you rugby fans out there, I recommend that you check that out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, certainly. And that uh, you know, I'd say the Coast Guard Academy is very small. There were 200, uh, I don't know how many we started with, but we graduated 200, slightly over. So, you know, even though you may not be playing sports with people, you pretty much know everybody, but you develop that even more intense, close relationship with the folks that you're on teams with. And, you know, that was a very interesting crowd. Uh, anybody who knows rugby players, they're interesting cats. And I was really, really lucky to spend my final two years at the academy doing that. So, you know, like my brother.
SPEAKER_01Rugby guys are definitely work hard, play hard, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, emphasize like on the play. Um, but at a place, you know, like a service academy, there's only so much you can play. Um and I think like all of us in you know active duty service, especially going through like assessment programs, you don't have that much time to have fun. So you try to jam like 60 hours of fun into like four hours of liberty. So uh there's nobody, in my opinion, who were able to do that, uh, at least in my experience, than rugby players. So it was a you know very unique experience on the rugby team. But when I was in high school, I did apply to the academy when I was a senior and having gone through that introduction program. And, you know, like my siblings, uh they were like, hey, you you have some positive qualities, but you have more negative than positive. So we're gonna send you to the Naval Academy Prep School in Newport, Rhode Island. Now when I know what you're thinking, like, why the hell if I applied to the Coast Guard Academy was I going to the Naval Academy Prep School? And that's because they have about 30 slots reserved for Coast Guard Academy uh cadets. Um so you're a cadet.
SPEAKER_01That's right, and that's something that most folks would it would never occur to them. Yeah. And you know, another great route to an academy. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And it's interesting because you don't apply to the prep school, you apply to the school, and then they select the folks that they think could be a good candidate. And the the rule used to be if you got above a 2-0, you could go. So you found yourselves around world-class athletes that the Naval Academy was bringing in that struggled academically or whatever it may be, or maybe you know, struggled with potential military perspective and they needed to get a little bit of discipline. But the school's run by the Navy of the Marine Corps. It is uh its own school in Newport Rhode Island. It can be hardcore from time to time. Certainly, their indoctrination period is uh there's less oversight uh and eyes on it than at Service Academy, so it's a it's a unique place. But you're also around like world-class athletes. So uh, you know, classmates of mine won uh national or were in national finals uh in college, um won Super Bowls. So, you know, these are these are high-end athletes, and as a you know, potential Division III athlete myself at the time, you know, it was a real insight into what high-end Division I athletic candidates look like. And it was really, really fun, really, really intense, uh, academically, especially. So it was an interesting year. I was lucky enough to finish and go to the academy after. And, you know, I was there for four years. It was it was uh it was an experience. I don't know if I want to call it, you know, a great experience. Uh I think good place to be from, right? That's I was just about to say.
SPEAKER_01Not always a great place to be at.
SPEAKER_02It's better in the rear view than it is in the windshield. And, you know, the best part about it, and I'm sure you feel the same way at uh West Point, and I certainly know some of the folks that I know from Navy felt this the same way. Your summers are the best part. So, you know, your first summer is your swab summer, sort of your indoctrination program, but they let you spend a week on the Coast Guard Cutter Eagle, which I'm proud to say is going to be leading the uh tall ship parade here in New York City in a few days for America's 250th birthday. And that's a 295-foot massive sailing vessel. And you spend a week on board the Eagle, your first summer, which sort of incorporates the teamwork that you're learning in a sort of indoctrination program into like real semi-real world application. So you're physically hauling those sails up, you're physically scrubbing those decks, you're learning from enlisted folks in real time as they're teaching you how to be a crew member on a ship, which is a very you know unique and different thing. So that was your first summer, and then your second summer they send you back, but for five weeks. So you really, really integrate into what it's like to be a crew member on a ship and a unique ship like Eagle. And it just so happened that when I was a freshman at the academy, uh, you know, one Tuesday in early September, while we were all taking a chemistry test, you know, 9-11 happened. And uh, you know, having been from the Metro New York City area, I uh unfortunately know folks who uh passed were were murdered. And then my family members were all very close uh near and in towers. So, you know, uh no no one in my family uh died, but we were close enough to be severe, you know, very impacted, uh, both, you know, as an American, obviously, like all of us were, but uh also personally. So um, you know, going back to Eagle in our, you know, I guess the summer leading into your sophomore year, your third class summer, you are uh when we were on Eagle, its first port call that year was Fleet Week um in New York. And it was the first one they had after 9-11, and it was just a massive display of you know the Navy. Uh I think they had a couple of the amphibs in there. I think we had uh aircraft carrier offshore, and we had obviously the Eagle got to lead the way. And we That must have been intense. It was just so emotional, an incredible experience to be a part of. But one of the things is, you know, this is right after September 11th, first fleet week that that happened there. I I don't know what it was like in subsequent fleet weeks. I didn't participate in them as a service member, but we didn't pay for one thing. We didn't pay for subways, you didn't pay for cabs, you had as you know, all these experiences, and the embrace from the city of New York in those moments was it was emotional. It was overwhelming. So um it was a very, very unique experience in that first summer. And then I got to go out to a 378-foot cutter all the way out in uh Hawaii, uh doing oh wow. Yeah, I was actually participating in, I don't even know if they call it this anymore, but it was called like RIMPAC, which was a uh Department of Defense operation training operation out off the coast of Hawaii, which was a really, really fun operation, operated with you know uh mostly naval vessels, both U.S. and foreign, just a couple weeks, and it was really, really fun. And then, of course, as I'm sure it is the case at other service academies, you spend your second summer training the incoming uh you know freshmen.
SPEAKER_01So that that was Yeah, I I shouted a platoon leader at Fort Hood, Texas. So not quite your Hawaii experience. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so and and you are to to you mirror in you know junior enlisted folks in that first summer. So you're the whole notion is you're learning what it's like to be a junior enlisted member of you know as a crew member on a ship, and you should be doing the down and dirty. You should understand exactly what they're doing, you should understand like what it's like to live in uh you know general population in the largest barracks rooms with a whole bunch of people. And so so you really learn that experience. So in the event that you're lucky enough to graduate and become a deck watch officer and have a division, you know what that life uh is like.
SPEAKER_01So coming out of the Coast Guard Academy, uh, I see that you first came to the Cutter Gallatin here in Charleston, South Carolina. Uh you were there for two years, you go to Cartagena, Columbia for a mobilization, and then you finished up your last few years as part of the Maritime Security Response team at Chesapeake, Virginia. So coming on to Active Duty Coast Guard, uh, did you have to pick a specific branch of the Coast Guard?
SPEAKER_02No, so you know, just like every other academy, they give you a dream sheet and you do your best. I will say that in my senior year at the academy, when you're filling out dream sheets, I think like other academies, you you get assignments based on your mostly your academic performance, some of your military performance, and then you know, wherever the preference may be. Uh, as you could possibly probably imagine, I wasn't the highest uh academic performer uh at the academy. I, you know, I was a rugby player, so my military performance was was not the best. Um, but you know, somebody pulled me aside, uh, one of my teachers at the time, and he said, like, hey, you know, you're not the you know, sharpest tool in the shed, but I want to give you a little bit of a strategy. I doubt he actually said that, but that's great. Yeah, I mean, no, he was pretty he was pretty blunt. Um and uh I I will say that you know, we did have a nickname for him, and I won't use the first name because I haven't talked to him about this before. Well, I'll just say it. We called him Johnny D minus because he very famously uh graded one of my papers and gave me a D minus. I somehow got through the rest of the class, but um that you know he pulled me aside and one of his colleagues pulled me aside, and they're like, hey, here's how you should strategize your dream sheet. And so, you know, everybody from the Coast Guard Academy had to go to C. And my my class was the first year where they didn't. And so, you know, there were some of these sector roles, or there's some of these, you know, flight school roles, but he's like, Look, you gotta go to sea. And since you know, you're not top performer in your class, you should go to a the largest cutter, a 378-foot cutter, and because they have the most amount of spots, and if you're really interested in counter narcotics missions, you should go to this one on the East Coast, which only does counter narcotics missions. And, you know, he was right. I was lucky enough to get uh stationed there and the best small city in the U.S. in Charleston.
SPEAKER_01Uh I lived with and see this is my thing about the Coast Guard, you know, like if you're at the bottom of the class uh West Point, you're fighting over whether you're going to Fort Polk, Louisiana, Fort Still, Oklahoma. You know, at the Coast Guard Academy, it's like Charleston, South Carolina is like is is available anywhere. Like, that's amazing. I mean, Charleston is a gorgeous city. It's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02And uh, you know, the places I even got to live there, I lived with uh a couple buddies of mine from the academy, and we lived in fantastic places. But going to a ship that size, you are offshore conducting missions the most. So that's why a ship that size is not necessarily the most desirable. Uh, and that's how I can strategize from being towards the bottom of my class to be able to get that unit. Whereas, you know, some people Jared, this is crazy, but there is a huge Coast Guard presence in Alaska. Now you would think like, who wants to go to that? Sounds terrible. Like the seas are as rough as they could be, the missions must be really rough, it's really, really dynamic. And some people want that. Uh, some people are obsessed with it. Even on the lakes, like that, you know, there's a huge Coast Guard presence on the great, Great Lakes. They do a variety of missions there, which are incredibly challenging and dangerous. And there are people who like really wanted to go there. And I'm so grateful for them because, you know, they they took those roles that I did not want, and it was able to preserve a spot for me on the gallatin. And that, you know, that ship was pretty much south only focused on law enforcement missions, particularly chasing drug boats in uh the Caribbean. And we had some assets on board that helped us with that, uh, namely a helicopter and a really, really Fast small boat. So we were able to, you know, I learned how to be a deck watch officer on board that ship. I was lucky enough to become a boarding officer on that ship. Meaning, you could go, you know, uh with the small boat over to the other, you know, ships and board those. And, you know, we would go anywhere from two to four months at a time, uh, you know, on these patrols, which were, you know, like anything else, great experience to have done. Uh, not necessarily the best thing to be doing at the time, but you know, we used to joke, and I wonder if you feel the same way from your experience in the Army, like you would go, you know, on a patrol for three or four months, and you'd have like maybe like six minutes of excitement. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, and you're just like Yeah, well, and that's what I was about to ask is like how often are you actually boarding these other boats? So it depends on the types of boardings that you're doing. I mean, small boat stations that are coastal, they're doing boardings all day, every day, right? But they're more of recreational boating or small law enforcement boardings or things like that. So when you're getting offshore on these larger assets, and particularly on like uh, and by the way, I say this all, you know, noting that I've been off of active duty since 2010. So things may be different now, and I hope they are. But um, you know, you'd go you'd go on a patrol for three to four months, and if you're doing specific, you know, counter-narcotics operations, you maybe, if you're lucky, you're catching, you know, anywhere from one to five GoFasts, which were the small boats that were carrying uh cocaine or whatever it may be, you know, going 80 miles per hour through the middle of the Caribbean, and you're chasing them down with a helicopter. Your boat, my boat was almost 40 years old and was pretty much falling apart. Uh, I don't want to speak ill of the dead because she's been uh since donated to a foreign military, but like that ship was old, it was it tried to go fast, and so you know, you're relying on these other assets, and so you'd be lucky if you got anywhere from one to you know four go fast vessels to enforce those operations.
SPEAKER_01So, unlike the army where you branch to infantry, armor, whatever it may be, it sounds like coming out of the Coast Guard Academy, you pick a ship and then that dictates the type of work that you'll be doing. Is that accurate? Sort of.
SPEAKER_02So there, you know, I I'd say you know, when I graduated the academy, 90% of us went to sea, whatever it may be. So you went to law enforcement cutter, you went to uh you went to like a buoy tender cutter, you went to um, you know, all different different types of afloat assets, with the exception of a few people who are allowed to go to flight school directly. So they're pilots right away, and you which is the same naval flight school down in Pasadena, Florida, um, or a very, very select few were selected to go to sector communities, and that is like shore-based managing assets right offshore in the harbors, and they have various different types of opportunities to them to follow on. But I'd say a large majority of us all joined the service and went to sea. Now, from your second tour, you can go like a zillion different directions. And I went into more of a uh tax and law enforcement direction as you see.
SPEAKER_01But um, you know, I had friends that it's not like you went to like, you know, out of the army, you could go to a military police officer basic course, and then you were gonna be an MP officer the rest of your career. So, like you graduate the Coast Guard Academy. Do you have to go to an officer basic course after that? No, you graduate, you're commissioned, and you're on your way to a unit in the fleet. Wow, okay. Yeah, like that's a that's a big difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you're taking 30 days basket leave and then you report as a brand new ensign uh on your ship, as I did.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And the like you said, the vast majority go to a law enforcement cutter. That's what you did.
SPEAKER_02Vast majority go to sea on various different types of assets. I went to a cutter that was more specifically focused in law enforcement type operations because they only went south. If you're going north, right, you're going north from Charleston, you're dealing like fisheries operations, you know, you're getting offshore. Uh, everybody does search and rescue to a certain degree. Uh, but I was lucky enough that the asset that I was on largely only went south to the Caribbean and uh did mostly counter-narcotics operations.
SPEAKER_01Great. And then when you went to Cartagena in 2008, um was that also no narcotics enforcement?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it was a really, really unique mission. So coming off of the ship, you know, Cartagena was like a very common port call at the time. Colombia was a very, very different country in the time. Well, I don't know how it is now, but it was, you know, it was a pretty dynamic place then. The FARC was still doing active operations in the middle of the country, and I think they still had like a fair amount of hostages. I don't know what they have now. Um, but I left the ship and I went to the Maritime Security Response Team East, which used to be uh what was called the Tactical Law Enforcement Team Unit. It was called Tacklett North. And so it was transitioning from these small teams that would deploy on Navy ships, and they would conduct counter narcotics operations from U.S. Navy assets. And so at the time, as it was explained to me, uh the U.S. Navy was not conducting quote unquote law enforcement operations because they couldn't, because of Passi Comitatis. So they were deploying small Coast Guard boarding teams, and for a moment, when they would come upon a uh law enforcement operation, meaning stopping drugs, they would raise a Coast Guard ensign on the flag and they'd temporarily become a Coast Guard ship. And the boarding officers from the team would go over, do the uh narcotic counter narcotics operation, and then um and then seize it and bring it to you know whatever U.S. port was nearby. And any Navy ship transiting these counter narcotics areas or the areas where you're likely going to see narcotics operations, they would bring on these law enforcement detachments. And the law enforcement detachment would do all sorts of things on the ship. They'd train your VBSS teams, you know, they they'd do all things, uh all things, you know, trainers and tactical law enforcement operators would do. After 9-11, the Coast Guard developed a various amount of different assets to then address uh port security, port safety. So they created what's called a maritime security safety team, which were positioned in various key ports around the United States. But they also wanted to roll out the maritime security response team, which became a response team deployed in the event that there was some type of counterterrorism operation happening on a ship. So that I think really rolled out in 2004, 2005. So I was lucky enough to go to the first maritime security response team, what they now call maritime security response team East, because there's a second one on the West Coast, but it was the only one at the time in Chesapeake, Virginia, but it was in very, very, very, very southern Chesapeake for strategic reasons, because there was a training facility in northern North Carolina that we used all the time. Um so uh we were there, we were uh, and while I was there, it just so happened while I was finishing up some of my training there to be qualified as a direct action section team leader, was uh, you know, this mission came in and they're like, hey, this is traditional tacklet mission, but the DOD asked us if we wanted to do a uh test evaluation on a new craft. And so the craft was really, really unique. Um, it's called the Motor Vessel Stiletto. You can look it up, just be careful Googling Stiletto. And it was a it was a carbon fiber ship, it was three-hold, and it went like 80 knots. Uh and so there was a small area in the back where you could deploy a small boat, and then a small flight uh deck on the back where they were testing out uh deploying different types of alternative uh aerial vehicles, probably what we would now call drones. But the term drone wasn't really that much in the vernacular then. So we deployed south. Uh believe it or not, the army drove the boat. Uh their transportation crews drove the boat, and we were the law enforcement detachment on the back. And so wow. Yeah, so people would always when when we'd have these. Were they based out of Fort Eustace or something? I know there's a small boat unit there, yeah. So we would we would train together in Eustace, and then we finally got on board, you know, in Norfolk there, and then we finally got on board. Uh, we all linked up in Miami, we got our in-brief from the commands there, and then you know, we went we went south. Now, I'll say I was very lucky enough to meet the craft in Cartagena because the Army drove it down, and I and I love the Army boat drivers, but they only know one speed, which is as fast as you can possibly go. And when you're driving in a carbon fiber, you know, tri-hole ship at trying to go like anywhere between like 50 and 80 knots, it's gonna be the most painful ride that you possibly can have when you're any any way off offshore. So, you know, we would sit in these NASCAR seats because the ship, when it would slam into the waves, would be so aggressive on your body. So we met it there and we were able to do a bunch of missions out of Cartagena. Uh it was it was really, really fun. Um it was a it was a really, really interesting time to be there. And we were doing all counter-narcotics missions out of the area. We would have, we would have a we had a Colombian naval officer on board, so we could affect law enforcement missions there. And you know, anytime you're on a ship like that, which is a TNE ship, there's a lot of people who want to come and see it. So we had a bunch of dog and pony shows of guys who would come down and and want to see the ship. So it was a really, really fun mission in a really, really unique place. Uh, and I'm glad I did it, and then I was glad when it was over uh because I'm pretty sure like one of my kidneys is still ripped open from from one of those, you know, from some of those uh waves that we were hitting in that ship. And uh I was really, really excited to come back and then take over as an assistant team leader at the direct action section and then eventually become a team leader. So, at what point does law school start to get on your radar? Great question. So, you know, I was in my second year of three at this maritime security response team. My wife was a teacher uh in a school in Yorktown, Virginia. We both grew up together in in southern Westchester. She grew up in Bronxville. I grew up in Rye, and you know, we'd known each other since we were like five years old. I'm in uh her classroom helping cleanup, and I get a call on my cell phone, you know, this is before, pretty much before iPhones, and uh it was from a guy, and he said, Mark, you don't know me, but I'm a federal prosecutor out of the Southern District of Florida. And when you did one of your boardings when you were on Cutter Gallatin, you found a bunch of guys that we were looking for. Now, just to back it up, we were on board this ship for like 25 hours. We found a hidden compartment, we finally got permission to cut it open. We cut it open probably like 14 hours into the boarding, and there was nothing in there. But we had these. It was it was exactly so. I was gonna be a witness in their trial because even though there was no drugs there, we identified some folks that they've been looking for. So when they got back to Columbia, they extradited in the U.S. Eventually, we were gonna have they were gonna have this trial. And so I was like, oh heck yeah, like I remember that boarding, I remember everything about it. Like, let's do it. I'm super excited. And the next day, the guy called me back. He's like, actually, everybody plead out, fled out, so you know, you don't need to come. But I I remember saying to him, I was like, can I still come down and see everything? Like, see how it's all gonna go. And he's like, Mark, I don't I don't care what you do, but we're not gonna pay for it. So I was I was like, all right, so I I never got I never got to do that, but I went home that that night and I was like, what is a federal prosecutor? Like, of course, I I had the idea of like what a prosecutor is, and I became so fascinated about it that I had then resolved that night that I was going to try my best to do everything I can to try to become a federal prosecutor or a prosecutor, right? So I got home, I looked up that I had to go to law school, take the LSAT. You know, like I said, I wasn't the strongest academic performer, but my thought was well, like many of us, is there a program where the Coast Guard sends you to law school, they pay for it, and then you become a Coast Guard lawyer? And there was, and I had advice from a fantastic person who was helping me through it. She said, Hey, when you apply for this Coast Guard program, have a law school, already be accepted to a law school. Because one of the things they'll be concerned about is that you're not gonna be able to get into school, so they're not gonna, and this is everybody, that they're they're gonna accept you to this program, and then you can't, you won't get into a school, and then you're stuck. So when I applied for the program, I had already had acceptance to a school. So, which I was really pumped about. And it was a state school, so it's a little bit cheaper for the service. So it was a great, it was a great setup. I was ready to go. And uh so I applied for the program and I was an alternate. So I was like, all right, so do I wait it out to see if somebody drops out, which they're not going to, or uh do I try again? So ordinarily, after your, you know, these the tours are two to three years, and should I try again at the end of that tour? And uh my command at the time was very generous, and they offered me a one-year extension to try again. So I was, you know, at this point, at the end of my five years, I was in a law school. And oh, yeah, by the way, my wife, who's teacher at the time, decided that she wanted to apply to law school too. So we were both in the same school, we're we're both sort of set up and ready to go, and we just decided, you know what? We're gonna sell everything we have, we're gonna move to a shoebox in Hoboken, New Jersey, and we're gonna go to law school. And she, being a lot smarter than me, had you know, had scholarships and things that, you know, could make school cheaper. And we were at a state school, so it was it was great. So that's when we decided she wanted to be a trusted state's attorney, I wanted to be a prosecutor, we're gonna go to Rutgers Law School in Newark, New Jersey, and we're gonna do sort of everything we can to sort of chase down our dreams. So I went to law school, great experience. I had the best summer internships ever, the first being at the NYPD in their legal bureau, which was super fun. Next, being at the U.S. Attorneys, or then that year I worked at the mayor's office under Mayor Bloomberg, and then uh the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, and then the uh the district attorney's office in Manhattan. And that gave me a great experience for where I eventually ended up as an assistant district attorney at uh the Queens County District Attorney's Office in New York City, and that's where I first started uh my legal career.
SPEAKER_01Wow, and yeah, and then you're able to the you know get to the U.S. attorney's office, but not directly from the DA's office, right? Like throughout your career in private, well, since the military, you've kind of alternated between prosecution and private practice, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, you know, the DA's office was great for a lot of reasons. One, it was very, very similar to like a small unit dynamic. You have uh very, very close ADAs working in extremely tight quarters, uh, and you had just this fire hose of information and cases coming at you every single day. So you have to distill tons of complicated information, try to get it into a charging instrument. If there's one that's warranted, deal with police officers, which have their own responsibilities and their own sort of metrics that they have to keep. And then you have to prosecute these cases. You know, as a misdemeanor assistant in the city, I've had at one point up to 300 cases, and it was really, really, really difficult on a day-to-day basis to try to figure out what was the right outcome for every case and try to move them along. And then you transition into a felony bureau and you still have a lot of cases, and it's still really, really hard, and you become really, really close to the people that you are assigned there with. I was lucky enough, based on one of those relationships I told you before from one of my internships, to then uh start with a firm in Manhattan that focused mostly on white-collar criminal defense and investigations. That experience was uh, you know, my first time in private practice and really having a private sector job at all. And yeah, I was really, really nervous going into it. And it was it was amazing because you realize that there are incredibly smart, hardworking, interesting people that haven't served in the military. And they bring this insane amount of experience in what they do, and you also have resources that I never knew existed. So in those cases, when you know a financial institution is paying your bill, or an ultra-high net worth individual, or in some cases an insurance company, you can, you know, I only probably had at any given time like seven to ten matters that I was working on, but you can, and you're expected to, and you better dig deep on every single one of those cases. And you dig deeper in areas and you know, things that I didn't even know we could, because you have these resources. And, you know, it was a it was a great experience. I think I was there for like six years of my first time, and you work with incredibly talented people, very smart, very experienced. And you know, they don't necessarily mentor you in the way that the service is, um, but you have to be smart enough at that point to be a mentee, even though someone's not going to be like your active mentor. And you have to pick up everything as you possibly can as you go along the way. And I worked on super interesting cases that are torn right from the headlines, um, you know, to monitorships of international financial institutions, doing uh anti-money laundering and sanctions cases. So it was just super diverse set of experiences in the criminal defense slash investigations and compliance world.
SPEAKER_01Um go ahead. Yeah, and you you over a span from what's it, 2016 to la you know, early last year, you were at Walden uh Moctin Heron in New York, and you took uh a little bit of a respite to go to U.S. Attorney's Office while you were there. So you were able, you know, you you had set out to become a federal prosecutor, you end up making that happen. What was that experience like leaving private practice, going to U.S. attorney's office, and then coming back to that firm?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd say it was very brief, uh, but I'd say uh everything that I said about really, really smart and incredibly interesting and amazing people, you know, multiply that by five. These are some of the hardest working people I've been around. They had extremely challenging and sensitive investigations. And I just give them all the credit in the world. And while I was there was was the height of COVID. So I didn't have the I didn't have the in-person interactions, certainly not like the district attorney's office. So when I think about my experience as a prosecutor, it's much more oriented towards when I was at the Queens County DA's office. So, you know, unfortunately, you have a COVID situation which is, as all of us dealt with, like a very, very uh weird time. And so while I was there, I was lucky enough then to go back into private practice with some of that experience. But when I went back, we had this really awesome and fascinating case. Uh, and we were counseled to an independent consultant who was named uh as part of an agreement with the U.S. government by an international financial institution based in Dubai. So, you know, I was able to come back and immediately integrate onto this team and literally go to Dubai for a pretty lengthy period of time for a private uh engagement in the private sector and do anti-money laundering and sanctions work there, which is a super dynamic place to do it, especially after the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, our extensive sanctions that we put on them, and the UAE's position at the time being neutral in that uh in that conflict. So, from an outsider looking in, you saw like a massive onshoring of Russian wealth. So you take all those experiences as being trying to be a good military officer with a small team, deployed abroad, in a strange place, dealing with very sensitive and dynamic evidence, and you know, trying to deliver the best product you possibly can.
SPEAKER_01And so now where you're at as the uh chair of litigation at Avellino Law, you're still in that kind of focus on white-collar litigation, is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I think like all of us, you start at the litigation umbrella because you want to make sure you're not, you know, narrowing yourself too much. But you the things that I love and the things that I have the most amount of experience in are internal investigations, where you have like any corporate entity that has an issue that needs an attorney to come in very quickly, figure out what's going on, and let the decision makers, you know, have the information that they need to make the decision with all liability involved in mind, and and sort of within 72 to 96 hours, you are letting decision makers know exactly what they need to do. Very similar to what we were doing in the service. The next thing uh, you know, it that generally derives from things like that is white-collar criminal defense and really criminal defense generally. Having the experience as a prosecutor and then having the experience in the you know the white-collar world is you know, you are able to uh and and this is crazy. Let me just go back and say this. My professional ethos has never changed. It's since when I was a lifeguard, when I was 17 years old, all the way up until today. I like to help people when they are in their most dire situations. So that started in the Coast Guard, it uh continued as a prosecutor, and when I first went to the defense side, I felt like that was the first time I was ever changing, but I didn't realize I was doubling down because when somebody's facing, you know, whether the reputation At risk, their businesses at risk, or God forbid, their liberties at risk, this is the worst thing they've ever faced in their life. And they need you more than ever. And when you just send in and you figure out what's going on and you are able to help them in any possible way that you can, including telling the government that they're wrong, or the regulator that they're wrong, or you know, uh like being able to be there bold enough to stand there in front of them and represent them in these situations. It it it is incredible. I'd love to be able to do it, and uh that's one of the things that you know keeps me motivated to keep doing this work every day because I know it's not always as sexy as putting on the uniform and getting out there and representing the United States, but you know, we do our best uh every single day to do the best for our clients.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a great analogy. You know, uh one of the things that I think about a lot is when we're in the military service, we've got a mission, it's really straightforward finding meaning and purpose in what we do. And you know, what I'm hearing from you, you know, as a litigator, and there's you know, there's lots of litigators out there, how do you distinguish yourself from others? You know, your purpose and motivation is at heart, you're a lifesaver, you know, like, or a lifeguard, I should say. You know, lifesaver.
SPEAKER_02I like that one better.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, like that, you know, from a young age, you really identified yourself with that role. You know, you were in high school, you're a lifeguard. Um, that has a direct corollary to what you ended up doing in the Coast Guard. And, you know, and lo and behold, the experience that you had uh doing law enforcement for the Coast Guard is what motivated you to go to law school, become a prosecutor, and you know, has led to where you are today and the type of work that you're doing today. And I I find that really interesting that, you know, your kind of self-identification as a lifeguard who wants to be some with folks that are in their most perilous moment, and that motivates you. And that, you know, that that helps you show up every day um with what you're doing. Um and and kind of to that point of you know, the the type of work that you're doing, uh you recently uh posted an article on LinkedIn, AI and the law, criminal law, internal investigations, compliance, the future. Um could you kind of give a synopsis of what that's about?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So what what led me to get really interested in this is obviously every one of us is hearing AI like every single day, constantly. There's all these cottage industries of AI that are you know coming up. Maybe some of us are starting to use it in some way, shape, or form uh to assist us, whether it be in drafting, investigations, or whatever it may be. But the thing that really freaked me out was you start seeing articles now about how the government is using it in uh regulatory and criminal investigations. And they're starting to get ahead of you using these super advanced products. And if you're a you know defense attorney in any way, shape, or form, you need to understand what it is, how it's being used, and how you can adjust to it. And you may be using it to look at evidence too. So I wanted to look at and I wanted to analyze, it's gonna be part of a 12-part series if anybody's interested in to keep reading, is that AI is being used in criminal law by prosecutors, in internal investigations, and in compliance by regulators. And so you need to realize that, and you need to realize where, how to look at that evidence, whether to determine it's real, which is one of the biggest factors that you need to consider when examining that, and what that means for you and your client, whether it's an institution or an individual, and how you can use AI to help you in your defense of a case. I the one thing I'll say, and everybody knows this, that's certainly listening to this podcast, but should certain be very aware of this, is you may not want to be using AI, right? There are people who are like, I think it's cheating, or I think it's hallucinating, or I think it you know may not be helpful. Just remember your adversary is using AI, but so are your clients. So, you know, there was a day where somebody would come to you, and you know, certainly big firms in New York City, a financial institution would come to them and say, Hey, I need to know about this X, Y, or Z, and then the bill at the end of it would be $50,000. And they pay $50,000 for a memo for you know what they should do on X, Y, or Z. Guess what? Your clients are showing up with the memo already. They're showing up and they're saying, Is this right or is this wrong? And if you turn around and try to, you know, charge them fifty thousand dollars for this, you're you're gonna find yourself in a bind and they're probably gonna find themselves a new law firm. And so, yes, you obviously have to verify every single thing that's coming out of that machine is right, of course, and all the ethical rules and regulations that are coming out of it in case law will you know say the same exact thing, but it's changing the game, and unless you are participating in it, you're you're not gonna keep up. So you need to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I found it very interesting. The you know, when you talk about uh prosecutors in Brooklyn, the charges they made under the the Take It Down Act, um, about how pervasive these AI-generated deep fake images and videos have become, and you know, being able to respond to that.
SPEAKER_02Definitely. So one of the things I take a look at, and not to be a shameless plug here, but in my second part that's coming out today, which is Tuesday, June 30th at 12 55 p.m., is it takes a deeper dive into trying to figure out what evidence is real. So there are a few different ways that you can do it, and of course, there are even products and forensics uh tools that you can use to help you, but there's also a lot of common sense that goes around it too. If you're looking at an image and a moose has, you know, 17 antlers, you know that it's off. But that moose isn't going to be front and center, it's gonna be in the background and it's gonna look a little weird. Also, you have to trust the source where it's coming from. So there's a whole way that you should be, you know, looking at this both using a tool and also with just your common sense looking at some of this information. But that's the big thing, or one of the big things is that you have to remember the evidence that you would otherwise usually just assume is true video surveillance, text messages, Slack messages, um, video recordings, whatever it may be, you need to remind yourself now the first thing you need to ask yourself is is this even real? And then on the flip side, one of the things that people will say, even if it's true, they'll say, This is just AI. So you need to counsel your clients who may be dealing with dynamic and different situations that want to turn to you and say, Hey, this picture of me in this situation, and my company wants to fire me because they they saw me post it or they saw somebody else post it, is just AI. It's not real. So you you need to have a tough conversation with them in analyzing that piece of evidence that they want to show you that not only is that not true, but you need to tell them why it's not true. Or if it is true, you need to get in front of that company and say, hey, you guys have this wrong. And let me explain to you the 10 reasons why you have it wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, unfortunately, throughout society, this is becoming more and more of a skill. Um, you know, things that we're seeing out there in social media and other other places is just being able to assess what is real and what's not. And uh unfortunately we got a lot of people that uh are easily led astray. Um, but that's it's gonna become tougher and tougher to discern what's real and what's not as these deep fakes become more and more lifelike. But Mark, as uh we start to wrap up here today, I just want to see what advice do you have for folks out there, whether they're already, you know, if they're on active duty or they're have already made the transition in private practice and you know, wanting to be litigators. Um, what are your thoughts on, you know, kind of what you've taken from your practice and your vast experience?
SPEAKER_02There's there's so much that you already have to prepare you, I think, to be successful in any realm of life, having a sort a foundation of military service. And figuring out how to you know train your weapon on the right goal and then march in that direction is one of the hardest things. But my recommendation would be to keep that uh target area wide and be open to things that may come across in various different ways, but come at each one with that same passion and uh discipline and hard work that you're built on, and just you know, just be totally unafraid. The private sector is a very scary place coming from the government, you're not guaranteed anything, not as if you are in the service, but it's very much more dynamic. And if you're raising a family and you have people relying on you, you know, there even if you're doing an amazing job, if a company has, you know, share price goes down too fast, you're you're gonna be out of a job in two weeks. But so long as you just are comfortable with yourself going to sleep every night, that you're doing everything you possibly can to succeed or to help your clients succeed or to deliver the products that they they want you to deliver, then you you can at least know that you're you're bringing it. And every single person listening to this podcast knows how to bring it and has brought it before in situations that are ten times more serious than uh and dynamic than the situation that you're facing now. And I know some of it can be dumb, certainly as a litigator. Every once in a while you just want to shake your clients and be like, why why do you care about this? Why do you this is silly? Let's just move on. But oftentimes, you know, other than when we're you know evaluating a legal case, oftentimes clients don't want to hear that from you. They want to hear about their likelihood of success, they want to hear about any legal challenges, and they want to hear about how you're going to help them achieve that mission. And, you know, that that is the one thing all of us really know how to do is achieve missions. So take that same approach to it.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, hey, thanks a ton for that, Mark. Thanks a ton uh for coming on here and uh sharing your experience with everyone. And for those out there listening, if you would please give the show a five-star review and invite folks to join our LinkedIn and Facebook groups to make it easier for other uh for others to find us. We'd appreciate that. Thank you for listening to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast where we continue to serve together.
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to the Military Veterans in Law Podcast from the Civil and Criminal Defense Team at Collins and Lacy Law Department, South Carolina with your host, Jared Fitzneck. For more information, visit IslandsandLacy.com. All statements on the podcast are made in the course of the