Episode 7 - Christian Zionism in Latine Contexts

In this episode, we are excited to connect with Rev. Dr. Cláudio Carvalhaes, Rev. Dr. Crystal Silva-McCormick, and Dr. Nicolás Panotto, for what promises to be a fascinating conversation exploring the influence and impact of Christian Zionism in Latin American contexts—both within and among Latine communities and institutions—but also the harm Christian Zionist ideologies and power structures have brought to Latine individuals and families, whether here in the United States or abroad.

Resources mentioned
• Decolonizing Theological Knowledge in Latin America: Religion, Education and Theology with a Postcolonial Accent by Nicolás Panotto (interview on the book)
• Theology after Gaza: a global anthology ed. Mitri Raheb and Graham McGeoch (via Wipf & Stock)
• Discourse on Colonialism by Aimé Césaire (via libcom.org)
• Decolonizing Palestine: the land, the people, the bible by Mitri Raheb (via Orbis Books)
• Kairos Palestine II
• Kairos Palestine II Lenten study guide
• “Liberation Theology as a Test for Authentic Religion” by Naim Ateek (via FOSNA store)

This is the podcast of the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism (ISCZ). To learn more about ISCZ visit our website at: https://studychristianzionism.org

Got a question about the podcast?
Reach out to us via email at BTBusted@studychristianzionism.org.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello and welcome to Bad Theology Busted, where we challenge the dangerous theology of Christian Zionism in all the places that it hides. This is the podcast of the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism. My name is Dee, and I'm joined by my co-host and my friend Jesse.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Thanks, Dee. Today we are excited to connect with Reverend Dr. Claudio Carvales, Reverend Dr. Crystal Silva McCormick, and Dr. Nicolas Panotto for what promises to be a fascinating conversation exploring the influence and impact of Christian Zionism in Latin American contexts, both within and among Latina communities and institutions, but also of the harm Christian Zionist ideologies and power structures have brought to Latina individuals and families, whether here in the United States or abroad. Emblematic, uh, to me at least, of the growing influence of Christian Zionism in Latina contexts is the massive reconstruction of Solomon's Temple in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Built by the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God. Constructed with imported stone from Jerusalem and at a total cost of 300 million US dollars. The temple stands 500 meters tall. According to its website, the complex has hosted top Brazilian politicians and Israeli ambassadors, as well as events bringing together thousands of individuals to pray for Israel. Another example of Christian Zionist influence is seen in Guatemala's moving of its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in 2018, following the U.S. example. About the move, the Guatemalan ambassador would declare, For me, God put me in this place and time.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We'll be back after the break with our guests to discuss Christian Zionism in Latin contexts.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

In the beginning, God created his own image and I think today maybe.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

He earned his first Master of Philosophy degree in theology, philosophy, and history at the Methodist University of Sao Paulo in 1997, and a theology degree from the Independent Presbyterian Theological Seminary, also in San Paulo, Brazil, in 1992. An earth thinker, theologian, liturgist, performer, artist and playwright, and native Brazilian, he is now the professor of worship at Union Theological Seminary in New York. In the fall of 2023, Carbales received the award for the most creative play at the New York Theater Festival with his play When Guatcha Meets Pac-Mama. So, Claudio, a question for you. In a 2019 sermon that you gave at the Hispanic Summer Program in San Antonio, Texas, you talk about the disastrous situation for immigrants in the United States. In 2025, ICE agents murdered 31 people. And in just the first 10 days of 2026, four people have died in ICE custody, two people have been murdered in cold blood, and several more have been injured while being detained. Personally, what I see happening here in the US is an exact replication of what Palestinians on the ground have been experiencing for decades. Black and brown bodies have been experiencing U.S. state violence for centuries. And yet, even with all these parallels, so many clergy have remained silent on one or both of these issues. Can you tell our listeners why you think it's absolutely critical to engage these topics within the worship ritual?

SPEAKER_07 5:34

Yes. So thank you very much for the invitation. And uh Dee and Jesse, I'm so grateful for the work you do. What you do is so desperately important. And I thank God for you and I and I pray that you continue. I know you both have been putting your lives on the line by doing this, and I want to honor you uh for what you do, and Carl here behind the camera too. So thank you. Thank you so much. Good to see uh Christopher and know you a little bit from what you do and your relation with Christian Muslims as well. But but Nicolas is one of my precious brothers, so I know uh so much more of what he does. He's one of the most important uh theologians in Latin America, and so to be uh to have him here in Christopher here is is a gift and makes me want to be here even more. What you say it's it's it's so true, right? I mean, I think it's about 35 people now that they have killed, that ICE have killed. And today they put in jail a five-year-old boy in uh in Minnesota going to school. So you know what we see now happening in the United States, it's it's not a surprise. ICE is nothing but uh the continuation of the uh slavery police, right? And this is in the history of the United States. ICE is the slave patrol, which was also funded by the state. So what happened to indigenous people, black people, and now to brown people and immigrant people is a steady practice since the beginning uh of this country, right? So if you say like Obama was a horrendous president regarding immigrants, but I think what is different now with what the slave patrol is doing now, it's I think it's possible because of what happened to Palestine. I think Palestine was a global case where the powers of domination were testing the reactions of the world, right? They wanted to see what would happen if vicious violence, unspeakable cruelty, and total disregard to human life would do to people and it if there would be a constraint or a shock or something of a limitation. And what we have seen through these uh months and years is mostly silence, right? No commitment of countries and no firm response. And so I think the normalization of the genocide in Palestine has given rise to the uh slave patrol to come back under the notion of ICE. And now without any concern, right? There's no need for any language anymore or any appearance that before it was this tentative way of saying, no, this is for democracy, this is for this. I I don't think there is a need for this anymore. I think what happened to Palestine, it has opened up to exactly the same things to happen anywhere in the world, and think that's the correlation between uh the brutality, violence, and death in uh in the United States is just a spin-off of what happened in Palestine.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Yeah, just to follow up on that quickly, I know that a couple like a week ago, the bishop of the Archdiocese of New Hampshire was giving a press conference and said that we are past the point of statements. We need to put our bodies on the line. And so, from your perspective as someone who teaches people how to preach, yeah. Can you tell me what is going on with all of this silence um that is happening uh in Christian communities and the worship context?

SPEAKER_07 9:34

I think the same way, I think what we see now is what has happened. I mean, uh the the church has always been committed to a certain class. And so that commitment to this class has shaped the theology and the liturgy and and the preaching. I mean, when we see that I don't know how much percentage, this high, high percentage of of traditional Protestant churches have uh voted for Trump, it's not a surprise. And since the genocide in Palestine, nothing has changed. I mean, nothing in the worship space. Perhaps what has changed is like they added Palestine to the prayers of the people. That's pretty much it. There was no change in the worship, there's no change in the symbols, there's no change in the in the preaching. Because if you preach about that, you lose your job. So there is a structure so well organized and formed that it makes it impossible for you to actually do something else, or you lose uh uh uh uh your job. Because why? Because the the church is a middle class church that doesn't want to deal with this, right? That that that wants peace, that wants uh uh, you know, we don't want to go there, right? It's not politics, church is not politics, or if it is, it is just like what is the mild way for us to do this? So let's have the national churches do it, or let's put a statement, but as you said, statements don't mean anything anymore. And I don't know the um what it would take for churches to change. I mean, you would have to be willing to lose your job if you are a pastor, and you will lose your job. It depends. I mean, it's not because you're working in the library that you're not uh uh at risk of losing your job either. So uh I think it's it comes to a point where what is at stake and how much are we want to put ourselves out there, and I don't see it happening in in most of the churches, either here or or in Latin America.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Thank you for that, uh Claudio. Uh I really appreciate actually the way you both highlight the nuance in a way that in many, many respects, this is nothing new. There's nothing new happening. And yet also after Gaza, there is something new. Like there's a new intensity.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

But it it does remind me of those people who are watching the news and seeing ice come in affect you know their middle class communities or whatever, and saying this is not who we are. And yet, of course, black and brown people come back with, you better believe this is who we are. You just haven't seen it yet because you haven't been touched by it. Or I even think of something I I read recently of um you know, people talking about Trump's desire to take over Greenland is destroying the international order. When it's like, no, that was destroyed, has been destroyed for the last two years in Gaza, you know, now it's just affecting European nations. Yes. You know, and so now people are shining a light on it.

SPEAKER_07 12:57

It it is just that the fact that if we if we remember Aime César from uh the Caribbean in his work on discourse on colonialism, there's a quote there that he says, What he cannot forgive Hitler is for is not crime in itself, the crime against man. It is not the humiliation of man as such. It is the crime against the white man, the humiliation of the white man. And the fact that he applied to Europe colonialist procedures which until then had been reserved exclusively for the Arabs of Algeria, the coolies of India, and the blacks of Africa. And so that also we could add all of the indigenous people. So it's not to minimize the genocide against the Jewish people, but to say that there's there's something to the the genocide of so many other people, so many other places, and and when it goes back, that's when something happens to white people, that's why when Rene Good is killed, there's this enormous reaction while 35 people were killed and there was not that much. I mean, thank God they are reacting, and we need that.

SPEAKER_05 14:12

But it's just how how we we measure the worth of certain human beings.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Exactly. And the fact that hundreds of Palestinians are being killed, and the news is still speaking of a ceasefire. Yes. And you had mentioned the Board of Peace, on which Netanyahu, the master mind of the genocide, will be part of the Board of Peace. This is absurdity incarnate. Precisely, precisely.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Speaking of the absurdity, I mean, something that I've been listening closely to tracking right now is how black womanist thinkers are responding to what is happening with the escalation of IC in places like um Minneapolis and all across the state of Minnesota. But, you know, the Nazi Party learned how to do the tactics of the Gestapo from the slave patrols of the United States. So I think that his idea of US exceptionalism somehow being like we're above all of this, or that we don't have any of it here is just it's it's been a propaganda machine for the last 80 years, at least, trying to um, you know, convince people that we we are somehow set aside this city on the hill, um, so to speak, when manifest destiny, that's a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Reverend Dr. Crystal Silva McCormick is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ, or the UCC. She is assistant professor of evangelism and missions and director of Latinx Studies at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary, and a scholar with the Hispanic Theological Initiative. And she has a forthcoming book on Latina Christian Zionism in the United States. Crystal. In an Instagram video with Academics for Peace, you talk about the outreach that Christians United for Israel, or Kufa, has done within Latina communities, and of the quote, nights to Israel propaganda trips that faith leaders are going on. Having recently traveled to Palestine yourself, can you tell our listeners how different your experience was from the sorts of trips that Kufai is organizing?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Uh yes, Jesse, thank you all so much for having me. And um, you know, I it's a privilege to be here with such amazing colleagues talking about these things and hopefully further in conversations in communities because these conversations are so important because they perpetuate violence. And I that's the first thing I would say about those trips that are distinctly different than I'm sure the experience that I had when I go to Palestine, when I take students to Palestine, is that they see the reality of apartheid, the violence of the occupation and trips that are intentionally propaganda trips hide these things. They obscure the reality or they specifically justify it, right? The reality of apartheid and occupation. And another thing that they do with um many people, pastors, and then often, for lack of a better word, the the lay people of the churches, right, that um already go with this predisposition that they're going to be so moved by what they see and experience. It gives them, I would say, an ontological and an epistemological experience, right? That is so powerful that it confirms what they believe about the modern state of Israel and what they're hearing from pulpits. So they're not really seeing the wall. And if they do see the apartheid wall, they will say, Well, that's necessary because they've been told that that wall is necessary to keep Jewish people safe. And so they are given those narratives and then they're given the biblical narratives about the sites that they're seeing, which as Norma Saha notes in his work, they show people the biblical sites in order to affirm the modern state of Israel's narratives, right? And this really creates a powerful feeling for pilgrims who think that what they're doing is being faithful to God and that the feelings that they end up um really being evoked when they're there are supernatural um experiences uh of God when they're there. Uh so many people that I've known and that I have interviewed, they will say how powerful those trips are. And they cite those trips as confirming that the modern state of Israel is chosen by God and that it must be central to their Christian faith. So these organizations like Kufa know exactly what they're doing by creating and manufacturing these feelings and these environments that obscure and hide and justify apartheid and occupation.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Thank you so much for that. Our next guest is Dr. Nicolas Panado, who is professor at the theological community in Chile and associate professor and researcher at the University of Oldenburg, Germany. He graduated from the Superior Evangelical Institute of Theological Studies in Argentina and holds a master's in social and political anthropology and a PhD in social sciences, both from the Latin American Faculty of Social Sciences. Dr. Ponato's research interests include contemporary theologies, faith and ideology, comparative religions, and systematic theology. He also serves as director of Otros Cruxes, an organization dedicated to inspiring dialogue, democracy, and human rights through knowledge exchange between faith and reality, religious communities and civil society organizations, and between spiritual paths and political actors. Dr. Ponado has authored several books and research articles in the field of religion and politics, public theology and post-colonial theory and theology, including decolonizing theological knowledge in Latin America, religion, education, and theology with a post-colonial accent. Nicholas, at the beginning of your chapter within the theology after Gaza anthology, you write that, quote, to question the colonial and genocidal pretensions of the political Zionism of the state of Israel means to be against Western values, democracy, and respect for sovereignty that many of the recent populist outsiders claim to embody as a radicalization of what traditional liberalism could not achieve, unquote. Given recent movements with the uh recent aggression towards Venezuela, I wonder if you can connect some of the dots for our listeners between what you see happening on the ground in South America and what is happening on the ground in Palestine, which is all at the hands of white supremacy and US Empire.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a privilege for me to be here and uh sharing and dialogue with you. And yeah, well, as as you mentioned, I think the the recent case of the attack to Venezuela is uh actually uh a good example of what I'm trying to express in that quote you you mentioned in the on the article because it actually clearly uh shows or illustrate how these colonial violence, imperial and genocidial actions are justified in the name of the so called Western values, you know, the democracy, freedom. The respect for sovereignty. I mean, even though it sounds a completely contradiction in itself, actually it is being used and weaponized for legitimizing this kind of actions. And actually, my interest in studying and deepening the place of Christian Zionism in Latin America has been the question on how Christian Zionism acts in the region in the face of how it is becoming more public, more part of the public sphere and political dynamics from one side, but for the other side as well, to see how these kind of ideologies are getting part but as a micropolitics in in the way of um how it is influencing the region, but beyond in terms of studying, for example, the different kind of uh political groups that are doing lobby on that. So I think there are a lot of elements that go beyond that that that go in more in a very um surreptitious uh socio-political relationship. So uh that's how um I one of the main points that actually are mentioned in this code is that uh the genocide in Palestine uh is part of a big and bigger enterprise that you mentioned white supremacy, but also is uh related to liberalism, to uh modernity, uh, to anthropology or western anthropology that actually influence a lot of the uh um current dynamics in um in Latin America. So now we are living, for example, in a I don't know even how to call it a paradox, a contradiction. Even these words uh uh get very limited in terms of of explaining. Like, for example, yesterday in Davos, when uh was founded this board for peace, but at the same time or in that same space, the saying Trump saying that uh we sometimes need uh to be a dictator to get some things right. So, I mean, this kind of naturalized contradiction. So those are the elements that we're seeing today in in Latin America specifically, and that's how I relate what is happening in Palestine with this kind of dynamics. Of course, if we go deeper in studying how Christian Zionism influenced in Latin America, we can say, first of all, that um it it is part of this new outsider politics that we see in the region. So um uh in a in a way we are looking at the uh uh crisis of the traditional narratives and the traditional political practices in the region. So this kind of discusses uh related to the legitimizing genocide that is happening in Palestine are related in this kind of new way of um uh of doing politics. In second, um in a second way, we can we see also like an emptiness of ethical content in uh our region in terms of these new politics and these critics of traditional politics. And the last thing, as I already mentioned several times, is uh this deeper crisis of of of liberal uh politics that actually go together with a crisis in in an anthropological perspective. So Western politics, liberal politics has naturalized this narrative of of you know the the good man, this uh naturalized anthropology that sustain this kind of patriarchal, xenophobic, racist practices. So there is a crisis in the in the very fundamental core of fundamental issues that are supporting what is today defended as democracy, as liberty, as freedom, and so on. That's I think is the point where we could unify and connect dots, actually, as you were asking, um, in terms of what is of the this geopolitical crisis in Latin America together and connected to the genocidal politics that have been developed in in Palestine. And again, just to say there is not just a uh uh uh uh uh uh connections in terms of uh a historical connection. There is a much more deeper connection that goes uh straight and deeper into the more fundamental, liberal, modern-centric, Western political concept that are hegemonic in the region.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

This actually leads me back to something that I want to follow up with Crystal on before I completely lose it. So uh something that I often invoke as somebody who is queer is that the personal is the political. It's all deeply intertwined, and I cannot get myself out of either space. And so, Crystal, my my most recent trip to Palestine was in March of 2025, which is almost a year ago, which is wild that that much time has passed. There's always a bazillion things that one can point at. What was your kind of like your your kairos moment, the moment that you realize that you have a place in undoing this harm? There's so many of those. But for me on this recent trip, it was uh we got to speak with a young woman who I can't name due to the kinds of danger that that would put this person in, but it was talking about the experience of in November of 2023 being abducted in the middle of the night from her home. And I was sitting maybe three feet in front of her. It was her and a family member that were telling their combined story to us. And it like lives in my bones now. Like every day I wake up and it's just like living in my bones. So I'm just wondering if you have something, either like your initial first trip that really opened your eyes that made the switch flipped, or maybe this last one, something that you hold on to that makes you continue to get up every day and do this work.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Thank you for the question. And I think, yeah, it definitely ties to what Jesse asked me earlier. And I think it ties definitely to my own background. So my family is from Mexico, and they crossed the southern U.S. border and made their way to El Paso, to Texas. And one of my uncles was a bracero in Chicago. So I come from an immigrant family, and I lived, was born and raised uh in El Paso, Texas, and saw the wall, uh, its different formations under different presidents, and saw those checkpoints. And it took me a long time before anyone explained to me why family had to cross those checkpoints, people we knew, why we had to when we went, what they existed for, what their purpose was. And I think at some point I understood that maybe they were trying to keep someone out, but why? Because some of those people are our family and some of those people are friends. So it didn't make sense until I maybe had the language for it later in my, you know, college formation. But what was distinctly different was when I read Edward Saeed and went to Palestine and saw the wall in Bethlehem, and not quite fully having the language, but understanding that that wall was in many ways the same wall that I saw growing up in El Paso. And so I think making the connections between those two walls has been a big part of my work and also part of my work. Um, if we want to speak about evangelization in a non-conversion way, converting our hearts, I think is very important. Uh, Christians showing up in the streets is a form of mission. Uh, standing with people, the vulnerable in solidarity in costly ways is a form of mission. And so I I think of these things as what it is my hope and prayer to do and to invite my students to do and to find ways to do, to make connections between walls, oppressive systems. And uh my prayer is that the communities that I come from, which I I would say I would in broad, broad ways, I am not an immigrant and a child of an immigrant, um, but the immigrant communities that that um I have served with and done solidarity work with, that they would understand those walls as well. Uh, there is a church in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas that has a massive flag of Israel on their floor, and they serve immigrants and they serve their local community as well, feeding them, clothing them. And there is not one cross in this Christian church that shall remain unnamed. And there is a menorah, there is a flag of the US, and there is a flag of Israel which tells us a big story already, right? And I think of the countless immigrants to the US that are received in that space and the story that they receive the moment that they cross that border and are received at that church. And so we're talking about vulnerable populations being told to align themselves with an oppressive system, even after they have crossed countless, you know, barriers, the wall, violence by border patrol, and who knows what other forms of violence through their journey. And then they're being invited to, using Christian language, to side with an oppressive system and a modern apartheid state. So my work is rooted, I think, thanks be to God, in the writings of Edward Saeed, in seeing that wall. And my prayer is that the vulnerable communities, Latina communities, would align themselves with the oppressed and not the oppressor.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Thanks so much for sharing that. It actually makes me think of my social location in my community, small town community growing up in California, where I mean very much white upper middle class background, but almost how there were in a way I could describe it as two civilizations existing in the same space, yet, at least from my perspective, in admittedly the more socio-economically dominant group, they're almost completely blind to the experiences of our neighbors who we live amongst and really build California. So I lived seven years in uh Lebanon. I don't know if you've had a chance to connect with Dr. Martin Akkad and the work that he has done with Arabaptist Theological Seminary, and now he's at New School of Theology. But when I was living there, I saw how both the situation of refugees living without rights in Lebanon, but also the statelessness issue and how people who may actually be Lebanese, they just don't have the papers to prove it. And they are generations within this space without access. And I was not able to really see the California context until I saw the situation of statelessness in the Middle East to look then at, uh, you know, we could call these immigrants, we could call them foreigners, but these are terms put upon people who are our neighbors, who live here and yet are basically denied rights and protections. And that's a much better way, I think, of thinking about that.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

I'll just say that in case this is the first episode that you're listening to of this podcast, I might go check out episode four because one of our guests said uh to speak to this, why are clergy silent? Why are Christian institutions silent on this? It's because once you recognize something happening far away, it's so much easier to see what has happened and what's happening in your context here. And if we're gonna reckon with what is happening in Palestine, we have to reckon with the founding of this country and the intersection between that, the genocide of the indigenous peoples here, and the power structure of reformed churches and theological institutions and educational centers. And so a lot of people don't want to do it because then you have to look in the mirror and look at your own context.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Thank you, Dee, for um raising that about the silence, I would say, and complicity of churches and Christians, including clergy or especially clergy. I would have to say that I also appreciate you uh naming that people have to reckon with the origins of the United States built on genocide on the backs of black people here in the US. People have not reconciled, we have not done anything to do repair or offer reparations to communities and instead normalize violence against these communities. And I'll have to say that all of those forms of violence are also part and parcel of this idea that the US is exceptional, right? Around the mythology, it hides these things, it justifies them in the same ways that you know Israel justifies its apartheid and occupy or occupation and justifies it, it hides it. And so I think US mythology does the same thing. And I find that in a lot of Christian churches, be they evangelical, be they mainline, uh liberal, people are so tethered to their ideas about the US that they are not willing to be critical of the US. They are not willing to be critical of Obama, as Glaulio named earlier, for his deportations. We're not willing to be consistent with our values. So instead, you know, maybe we pick and choose politicians that do affirm the queer community, but you know, are fine building detention centers in 2003, over 20 years ago. So um the Christian church in the US has to reconcile, be honest about the US, uh, which it hasn't been willing to do, and to be honest about its ideas about US exceptionalism and our favorite political candidates that have all been purveyors of violence against marginalized communities. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yes. So in other earlier episodes of the podcast, various guests of ours have made mention that one of the places where Christian Zionism is mushrooming is in South America and Latin American context. So from each of your social locations and within the communities that you work and live amongst, can you share with us what Christian Zionism looks like and why it is of serious concern? And Crystal, we'll start with you.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yeah, thank you for that question. Um, so my social location, um, as I named earlier, is I'm a would say a child of the border. Um, you know, um, my family came from Mexico. I was born in the US. And so um I don't have the immigrant experience. Um, but I have worked as clergy and as an activist uh in solidarity with immigrants, and I do that work now to try and counter Christian Zionism uh as well in those communities. And so that's a bit about my social location. Um, and as I think about the relationship though, in my work between the US and Latin America, what I see is that the two uh, as far as Christian Zionism in these two places cannot be separated to the extent that it is also a story of immigration. So there are organizations in the US that are intentionally, very intentionally, targeting communities, Latinan communities in the US, and they have extensions in Latin America. They travel to Latin America, they meet with politicians, they find different ways, including visiting indigenous communities, to try and convert them to be pro-Israel. They provide them food and meals and a form of evangelization that is pro-Israel. So they are actively working both in the US and different countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. So these two are are are not separate, in addition to the fact that you have many immigrants from across Latin America that come to the US, they're planting churches, they assimilate to these ideas for a variety of reasons, or they bring these ideas with them because they also come from a context where they have often uh been the recipients of Christian missions that have taught them that the US is exceptional and therefore you must support Israel in order to be Christian and in order to fight communism. Right. So these Cold War and post-Cold War ideas linger in a lot of Protestant churches across Latin America. So these ideas keep having sort of this circular relationship. And so that's one, I think, vector or vehicle for which you see Christian Zionism um having a relationship in the US and Latin America and continue to be this circular relationship, or a few ways, I would name.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Yeah, well, here in um in this in the southern cone in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, we we see like different ways churches, uh uh faith-based organizations and politicians like weaponize the the uh like sam symbols of of uh from Israel and so on. So like there are different contexts, like caste here that is from the far right, now the new elected president. Uh he has uh a lot of like opinions, but he's more like uh from a Catholic perspective, like supporting what is doing Israel. In Argentina we have Miley, a Christian Jewish believer, and and so he's supporting and and the first uh uh international visit he made was to Israel, and of course we have Bolsonaro in Brazil that then Claudio could talk more about him, like uh how for example we see the flags of Israel in the different popular manifestations and uh uh and so on. So, I mean we could say that here in in Latin America, like Christian Zionism acts as a, as I call it, uh as a religious geopolitical device for, in my opinion, for two specific uh goals. First of all, Christian Zionism acts uh as a uh a narrative or discursive framework uh that responds to the new kind of relationship between religion and politics. So, uh as you may know, in Latin America there is a uh uh uh an important growth of uh the conservative evangelical communities that are you know they're just not uh a part of uh a growing church, they are getting much more involved in in politics, institutional politics, and so on. So uh we could see that I mean having that in mind, and but for the odd to the other in the other side, uh understanding the crisis that Catholicism is having as a religious framework for traditional politics, uh we can see how Christian Zionism acts also in a double way in this in this case. From one side, uh it offers like narrative or discursives, uh the discursive tools to the political groups to relate to, for example, the new religious groups, uh, specifically uh evangelical groups. But for the other side, it also offers theological uh um tools to the evangelical communities to redefine uh their political subjectivity in a way. I mean, if we go to the 90s, for example, we go to the traditional evangelical communities, we still we could see still this tension between politics and religion. But in the last 20 years, or maybe 15 years, uh, we see how there's a new theology, a new narrative in terms of we are the people of God, we now we need to transform them the corrupt politics and so on. And we could see how evangelical conservative evangelical communities has taken a lot of uh uh theological narratives from Christian Zionism to redefine this new political place. But it's not just giving narrative tools, in and this is the second element, it is also giving like an important institutional uh structure. So, for example, in my case, because of my postdoctoral studies, but also Because of my work in otros cruises, I've been involved for the last uh nine years in the inter-American system. And it's incredible, you can see how the neoconservative groups has grown a lot in the Inter-uh, I mean, we call we we are talking about the Organization of American States, we are talking about the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights and so on. And the growth of the religious and evangelical groups that are getting more involved in these spaces is incredible. And if we go beyond what is happening on the connections, articulations that they are doing, or who is financing these groups, we can see a lot of as as Crystal was uh also talking, we a lot of the organizations that the US that are financing, but it's not just finances, they are also making this uh uh a political connection, institutional connection with evangelical groups here. So I would say that again, these I there are these these two main elements and how Christian Zionism is presenting, you know, given these theological narratives and discourse, and also offering an institution and political framework for these groups to uh advocate in a national and multilateral and regional perspective.

SPEAKER_07 45:20

I think I would go to say that what we see in Latin America and United States, because Latin America is always uh uh backyard, the theological backyard of the United States in in in in many ways. Uh I think is the failure of theology, right? It's the deep failure of theology because theology in the United States was a liberal event, and so Nico uh was talking about that connection before, right? And what this this liberal theology did was to um think about faith and God in in a very idealistic way, in a very out-of-this world uh way, in a uh a way of of framing things more within the the space of the mind. And so when when liberation theology comes and is more a material thing, starts to talk about uh uh liberation or more concretely, but still uh it didn't think uh that the Exodus, for instance, was this idealized place for oppressed people. And I think what only um indigenous people and Palestinian theology could offer us, and nobody else, I believe, is that they were telling us that theology starts with the land. And when you start with the land, everything changes. So that's now it's it is because of Palestine that we can offer something else as an alternative. Until then, uh, we were talking about it was the opposite. It was the evangelicals thinking the exodus in a concrete way, and we were idealizing the Exodus. Not even liberals could think about that. Was liberation theology had to think about the Exodus, but it thought in terms of uh, you know, uh a place to be, yet to come one day. And meanwhile, the evangelicals were thinking about no, the Exodus is a true movement uh uh that is going to uh uh a promised land. And where's the promised land? It's Palestine, and so all of the indigenous people of that promised land had to be kicked out, so it has to be kicked out now. It is just a continuation of the concreteness of the Bible, and while they did that, they had a concrete people to fulfill the promised land, was the Israel uh to fulfill that promised land while we were talking about the oppressed, the disenfranchised, but who are these people, right? And I think just now that with Palestinian liberation theology that we are talking about, the exodus is was a fraud, was a terrible uh uh um metaphor that only worked against the indigenous people, calling the Palestinian indigenous people. And so I think just now we have to rethink everything because what did it do was liberal churches, if you talk about worship, they always continue with the same symbols, the same gestures, the same talks, the same songs, and the same worship. Meanwhile, the evangelical churches changed everything. They start to gain, as Nico just said, they start to gain new symbols. They added uh the the uh Israeli flag into the uh worship space, which was not different, nothing different from what the American flag was doing to uh US churches, even the most liberal ones. And so then the US, the uh the Israeli flag comes in, and then you start to uh have this war theology about God of mighty and power, and then you start to make songs about it, and and you sing that your whole praise is about conquering, and then very soon it is about conquering. That's why the political it was so close to it, because the politics is about conquering, and so it was a perfect match between the politics and and the whole structure that again uh Nick was saying before, how this combined and it made this combustive uh um thing. And one thing that we have never uh paid enough attention is that all of the changes that is happening in so many places is through the worship space. It is the worship that is giving uh reason, rhyme, mission to the political uh uh uh frames, to the political goal. And if we do not pay attention to that, we'll never uh understood the um what the sociological, the economic, the political means if we don't pay attention fundamentally to what is happening and and being renewed within the worship spaces.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

I want to I want to stay here for a bit because honestly, you that that goes exactly into what was going to be uh my next question. As you know, so Naeem Atik, the the father of Palestinian liberation theology, uh key founder of the international Sabil movement, uh, he was deeply influenced, incredibly influenced by Latin American theology, uh, by you know, by liberation theology. And he became friends with, uh, and he even dedicated uh one of his works, Liberation Theology as a test for authentic religion, to Gustavo Gutierrez. On the other hand, uh, you know, according to thinkers like Mitri Rahib and Don Wagner, uh Palestinians were often left out of the liberation theology discourse, specifically because of what you what you had mentioned, the importance of the exodus. Now, you describe uh sort of a very tangible exodus in evangelical spaces and almost a more metaphorical uh thinking about the exodus in uh liberation theology or liberal spaces. But my question on this is uh in the Latin American context, is there a relationship? What is that relationship between the Christian Zionism we're seeing and also the liberation theology? Is it one that you would hope of antagonism or conflict, or is there an approval and sympathy built on that Exodus uh notion uh somewhere in between?

SPEAKER_07 51:46

What I see at least in Brazil is that liberation theology is is not as strong anymore, right?

SPEAKER_06 51:55

It is it is, I mean, I I would say mostly Latin American too. And um here's my my critique to public theology.

SPEAKER_07 52:04

Public theology has taken more of the space, and which I think has lost the grip of the economics, uh, and has become more a theology of of white people in Latin America. I don't see much happening. And now when I see like my my friends, at least in Brazil, what I see in terms of the uh theology, they are trying to uh back uh all of this the theology of dominance, of conquering uh uh from the United States. But they are trying to do by revamping the best of their traditions, Lutheran, Presbyterians, Methodist, and from that trying to push that theology of dominance back. But there's very little in terms of liberation theology. And and very sad, we uh uh very few people know. I don't even know, I don't remember anybody in my head that has quoted Naem, for instance, uh in in the places that I I know in Latin America. Uh Mark Ellis is more known, but not as much as well. And so I I see very little happening there.

SPEAKER_06 53:16

And I think that the the issue of the exodus is not even uh uh uh uh a major theme in in theology right now.

SPEAKER_04 53:26

Yeah, of course it is difficult like to think or to say. I mean, like for example, there is an explicit relationship between Christian Zionism and the Bush and theology. But actually, well, as Claudio said, as Mitri have worked very uh very deeply in his last book, Decolonizing Palestine, um uh you know, the the example of deconstructing and criticizing the use of the exodus and so on. But I mean there are like different elements that we can identify. One of the critiques to liberation theology has been that even though speaking about the theological subjects, specifically the poor in this case, at least the first generations didn't go beyond in other kinds of subjects. So subjectivity in liberation theology has been a struggle, at least until the last theologies, like queer theology, feminist theologies, intercultural theologies, and so on in the last maybe 20 years or 15 years. Thinking about subjectivity in liberation theology uh has provoked different tensions and conflicts within liberation theology. And of course, the the thinking about the Palestinians, for example, has been something that that is now uh uh deeply enough uh work here that leads in Latin America. I mean, that would be one of the first points. The second point is about Exodus and and Claudio already talk about it, but I would say that uh instead of talking about, for example, uh explicit relationship between these two elements, what we could say is that uh there is uh a very clear influence of Christian Zionism in Christian theology in general in Latin America, and that's why it is, I mean, we can see a lot of these uh lacks, a lot of these tensions and so on. So, for example, in my case, I didn't work liberation theology specifically, but more like theology, evangelical theology in Latin America. So if you go to the 80s and to the 90s and the different kinds of theological frameworks for mystiology, for example, though those frameworks that I work with, you know, becoming from a very conservative Baptist background, you know, talking from about the 1040 window, about uh spiritual warfare and so on. When I started to get into more like um, you know, a theology, uh a critic theology to Christian Zionism, I started remembering and say, of course, I mean, we never talk about Zionism in my church, but it wasn't necessary because all the framework that I learned that I was taught with, I mean, was absolutely uh Zionist, especially the myssiology. So I said, okay, I grow with it, and so many people naturalized this kind of categories, these kind of stereotypes of Middle East, this special place of the people of Israel, and so on. So I I think that Zionist framework on Christian theology that has been for decades in Christian church in Latin America has uh influenced a lot in the uh liberal perspective and so on. And just the last thing we have to add, Claudio was talking about, for example, the liberal theology here. If we see the colonial Protestant history in Latin America, you know, the different groups that arrive from the 30s to the 50s in Latin America and so on, some immigrant groups and and so on. So the relationship between racism and theology in Latin America as well was really strong. And it is also the background for this kind of racist theology that is still background for Christian Zionism.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

I wanted to say that um I also have found that in a lot of the evangelical churches that are largely immigrant or Spanish speaking here that I have been in relationship with, even though there's not the language of the people to say that's liberation theology and this is evangelical, right? Which we have that more in the academic world, and then what we're talking about is among lay people, um, there is, I think, an inherent suspicion of anything that smells like liberation theology as communist, as Marxist, right? Which then is assumed to be anti-Christian. And so, um, and and these are also frameworks that came from Christian missionaries. So it's I think important to think that a lot or to recognize that a lot of these churches, be the US and then Latin America, which is not my my primary area of um of knowledge um and relationship, but is that these ideas form inherently um from US propaganda, right? These frameworks um that support the US and that fear, communists, whatever that means, people don't often know what that means. They just know that they don't like it, right? And so as soon as they start hearing the language of even someone like Father Romero, they're like, oh, that's that's Marxist. We must reject that. You know, so there's this like theopolitical history that people have frameworks for that immediately cause them to have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that sounds like liberation theology, even though they're not naming it as such.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

You know, we first uh we learned about uh each of you and the amazing scholarship and work that you're engaged in, and then we gained a bit of a sense of uh the impact and influence of Christian Zionism. But for for my next question, I now want to transition into the realm of action, uh of response. So from your perspective, uh, what is required? Or what do you see as being an effective and authentic means of countering the destructive influence of Christian Zionist beliefs and institutions? And how are you responding to the challenge of and harm caused by Christian Zionism in your context?

SPEAKER_01 59:31

I would say that I'm in relationship with churches that are more evangelical, Latina, and then white mainlines. And often the white mainlines will say, we're not like Christian Zionists, we're not like John Hagee's church. And I'm like, well, friend, tell me more about what you believe. Um, because then they will articulate a lot of the same things around Israel. Um, although there's more discourse also around anti-Semitism there that I'm seeing a lot in white mainline spaces, which is a misunderstanding of anti-Semitism. But I would say that what I have seen effective is to complicate, first and foremost, for uh Latina Christians that I've been in relationship with, the idea that the modern state is synonymous with um the biblical state of Israel. And I think that's an important piece, is just trying to complicate that idea because they are not synonymous, but helping them tease that out. Um, the other thing is from people's evangelical commitments is the question around violence and whether Jesus would support violence. I have been called Hamas even for just asking who would Jesus support violence against. So that also tells us uh some of the responses that you will get. And so uh, you know, that was the first response. Is that Lalale Hamas? And I was like, oh wow, I just asked about Jesus and violence. I don't know how that we got there. So that also, you know, gives us a sense for where some people are as far as the propaganda. But I think complicating that, asking people to interrogate what kind of violence they think Jesus would support and that they would support. Um, because I find that a lot of times people articulate things that their pastors have taught them, that they've seen on YouTube. And then when they are asked about it, they're not able to tell you why or what it means or what the consequences are. So I think just asking gentle questions has also been helpful for people to think on their own. Why do I have these values? Have I explored this more? Do I know Palestinian Christians? Do I know that there are Palestinians who have been saying the same thing for decades? Uh, would Jesus support what is happening to the Palestinians? You know, so these questions that I think at least help them interrogate, as I think have been helpful. Yeah, but fundamentally, I do think complicating the the making synonymous the modern state with the biblical state has also been helpful. And for white progressives too.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:59

Um yeah, I I personally also come back for to two elements that we have already talked about. One is to reinforce what what Krista just said about we need to unmask this kind of uh implicit Zionism, Christian Zionism in the theological discourse in churches here in Latin America from the historical influence that has been for decades that I just that I already uh mentioned. Because it takes me to the second element that also has to do. I mean, if we need to enmass this kind of this this theological elements to rethink about uh this relationship, this yeah, this relationship between um the the public um place of this evangelical conservative groups and their link with uh uh uh Christian Zionism. We see in Latin America at least when we talk about religion and politics, I mean, first of all, there is this political theology, this political language that has been assumed without any critique, like to what does it mean to talk about the people of God and so on. And also we need political formation to the churches. Uh like for example, what Kirstell was uh sharing about this relationship between, I don't know, talking about social justice in Jesus and it's related to communism, and from communism it's related to the the Cold War times, and from the Cold War times it goes straight to the uh um you know the geopolitical conflict in the Middle East. So that's I mean, I grew up again with grew up with that in my church, in my Baptist church, when I was uh uh um uh in my first time of of uh being uh Christian. So um we need to uh like also unmask the tensions and the ideologies behind this new political uh place uh within evangelical uh groups and and in practical ways it has to do, okay, how can we uh relate our theological work in these terms in new kind of formation and education to churches, but not just relating to politics, if if not talking about the political dimension that is intrinsic to these theological elements. And thus, for example, Hall has been something very important to I mean church evangelical conservative churches didn't need in in in a way uh a specific political formation because they took from these traditional uh theological discourses, talking again about the people of God, talking about salvation, talking about corruption and so on, they took uh from this, you know, uh uh while we were like separating religion and theology and so on. No, they took from it, so uh from these discourses, from this narrative. So we need to go in that direction and deconstruct and work on the political impacts and consequences that these traditional discourses have. And and um to finish this answer is uh as a progressive group, we need to understand these dynamics because sometimes, as Christian just mentioned as well, is like uh the theological discourses and flags that we want to mobilize within the churches are many times disconnected of these uh kind of very basic and fundamental theological elements that have educated and mobilized the more traditional uh communities, faith communities. So we need to all actually. Change our theological narratives, our dynamics of of formation, actually taking maybe more of this background of religious popular formation that that characterized the 60s and 70s, but not with that kind of narrative, if not with other kinds of narratives that us are more related to the new kind of visions and discourses in churches.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:24

We need a re-foundation of the Christian faith. Just nothing less than that. I think what we need is um more close to a miracle than anything else, I think. Because the main question for us is what to be a Christian is about after Gaza. And the hat has to shift everything, has to change everything. Unless it changes everything, I don't know where it's gonna go. Because if we keep changing a little this, a little that, then I think we'll be anything but the Christian church. I don't know where the Christian church actually exists. I think the Christian church is only possible where it cannot happen. That's the only place that the church can exist. Everything else is a social group with religious ideas. I remember talking to uh James Cohn one time, and I was so frustrated with churches, and I asked him, Professor Cohn, where where is the church? And she says he said, Claudia, the church is very small. It is only here and there. And so I only trust that little church that is only here and there to do something. Everything else is going to be just main denominations that are mostly concerned about their death and their living uh rather than anything else. So if we can ask this question, what is the Christian faith about after Gaza? If that can happen, then it can go different places. Meanwhile, this is so massive. The Christian Zionism is so massive, both in the ones speaking loudly about it and with the ones that are not even talking about it, don't even consider it, but they're still in the same place. I think we have just to work with some kind of uh cracks here and there, just like what Christoph and Nicholas uh did. For instance, one example is this new uh bold Christian uh document about a moment of truth, faith in a time of genocide, that is that the Kairos Palestinian II statement also uh did. You can see some of the prayers that you can start, some of the uh um different biblical readings, and so we can start there with small things, but largely I would say that we need to linger with this question what would Christian faith be after Gaza, and if and that's what we need to do to stay there.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

I think that that's the question, you know. What you know, what does it mean to be Christian after Gaza? What is theology after Gaza? Of course, recalling um the questions of theology after the Hazak Holocaust, where is God after Holocaust? But now it's if you're not asking what does it mean to be Christian after Gaza, there's no point listening to you anymore. As Muntar Isaac said, Gaza's the compass.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

I'm gonna jump in with two things real fast. The first thing I'm gonna say is that these conversations could go on for forever. Like we could be here for hours and hours and hours and hours. There's so much richness and generativeness here, and I'll just put a pin in the fact that the American Academy of Religion, Society of Biblical Studies, and the American Theological Librarians Association conference are all gonna be co-locating in the same place for the next three years. And so I'm I'm just manifesting that out to the world that I think that these conversations they have to be more prevalent in those spaces than they currently are. And then the other thing I'll share is just that the Palestinian Justice Network of the Presbyterian Church USA, we've actually just published a Linton study guide on the Kairos-Palestine II document. And so we will be sharing that with you all and with our listeners. And again, thank you all so much for your time and for being here. Our original music, The Path Forward, was written and produced by Carl St. Lucie and Danny Frye, featuring sampled speech from Reverend Dr. Muthar Asak. ISCZ is a project of Friends of Sibyl North America, a nonprofit Christian ecumenical organization seeking justice and peace in the Holy Land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. To learn more about the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism and to donate to our work, please visit us at study ChristianZionism.org. Until next time, thank you so much.