The Resident Table

S1 E4: Risk: The Price of Greatness

• The Resident Table • Season 1 • Episode 4

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In this episode, the team explores the uncomfortable, unpredictable, and undeniably essential role of risk in the pursuit of greatness. From daring equipment changes before the Paralympics, to gut-check moments mid-race, to emotional risks like believing you can win it all—this conversation pulls back the curtain on the hard choices behind elite performance.

You’ll hear real stories of triumph, tactical mistakes, crashes, comebacks, and the mental fortitude it takes to bet on yourself. Coach Derek and the athletes reflect on the importance of risk in both training and racing, the fear of failure, and how growth only happens outside your comfort zone. Whether you're aiming for the podium or trying to live more boldly, this episode is your reminder: high reward doesn’t come without high risk.

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Until next time—thanks for being part of the team.

SPEAKER_00:

We're a decorated team of athletes

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and their coach. And we are here to have meaningful conversations around high performance, disability, and the power of culture.

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We're here to share our journeys as elite athletes

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to inspire,

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motivate, and teach you

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to build strong, diverse, and inclusive cultures

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that break barriers, embrace resilience, and unlock potential

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in sports,

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business, and life. Through stories and impactful discussions,

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you're going to learn how to create a world where diverse perspectives fuel high performance, include So pull up

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a chair.

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And join us for a meal. A drink. And one hell of a good time.

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As we

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discuss.

SPEAKER_05:

Ripples. You can't say that. You never let us have

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any fun. Hey guys, should we get started? Sure. Why not? Welcome to. Welcome.

SPEAKER_06:

Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome.

UNKNOWN:

Welcome.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Welcome back, everyone. My name is Mohamed Lana. I'm your host for this podcast. He's been waiting to do that. Yeah, let's go. President Mo. Let's go. 20... I forgot. How about right now? Mo Lana, 2028. All right. So, yeah, risk-taking is a big... a big part of our sport, being an elite athlete. And personal level, risk-taking started how I grew up. I grew up in Morocco, like a very, very modest family. My dad, so I'll just give you a quick background to explain why this is impacting me. Like, my dad is a taxi driver. And a taxi driver, but he doesn't have a license. Or the car to operate the taxi driver. He has the driver license to drive, but not the... So he had to run that every day. Every time, every day, he's driving the whole day. At the end of the day, he had to pay a certain amount. And my dad would wake up at 4 or 5 a.m., start working the whole day. And sometimes he would come home and... isn't negative. He didn't have that amount that have to pay. So we grew up with that mindset. Sometimes it happened three or four times during his career as a taxi driver. He got robbed while driving, holding a knife on him. You need to give everything. So I mean, grew up with that, seeing my dad every day, doing that, doing his best every day. But every time he would go, take the risk, He didn't know if he was going to make it that day or not, but he will come and try again next day. It was a rough childhood. For me, as I started growing up, going through the education, started working, I didn't have anything to lose. Every time when an opportunity comes up, Yeah, why not? Let's do it. I remember the first day I had my first walking leg with the knee. It was like when I was 22, 23. And this process is from France. I barely spoke any French. He was talking about this event, mountain biking in the Atlas Mountain. And he said, do you want to join? I've never been on a bike. I don't have a bike. He said, yeah, let's do it. And literally starting with that thing. And every time I see the reward of being outside of that comfort zone and trying something new. Because I don't have anything to lose. I'm not afraid of failure. And I think that's what stops a lot of people from doing things is being afraid of failure. failure of people judging them. So it keeps growing, and that's what took me all the way to the Paralympic Games. And every time, as you get older, you start getting more conservative, and you are less risky in things, but still, trying to bring that mindset to the Paralympics, whether Rio or Paris, Knowing that this may go the wrong direction, but it's worth taking the risk. And you are aware of that. So that's, I would love to

SPEAKER_03:

hear your

SPEAKER_02:

take.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I think a lot of us, you know, me prior to disability, some people born with disability, you learn about the mindset of to take risks sometimes, not for everybody, but a lot of times like you're forced to kind of force you in a position where you're going to have to take a little bit of risk to make things happen. Um, and it, it speaks to, um, we were talking about in between, uh, before we started this one about getting lucky, right? Some people are going to be like, you got lucky. You met that prosthetist, but at the same time you were prepared not to ride a bike. You hadn't ridden a bike, but you were prepared to take the risk. You were, you had the mindset, you had prepared that mindset. And I think that's what, um, like you said, a lot of people are afraid. And so if you learn the mindset to not be afraid and to take risk, you get lucky. You get lucky a lot in life and suddenly you're lucky in every aspect of life because you're willing to take risk and you're okay with failing and starting again. I

SPEAKER_07:

think lucky people also embrace change. They look for opportunity versus trying to fight and dig their heels in. I think that's a... really important component of being successful as an athlete too, because I mean, there was a lot of change and a lot of things that were very dynamic going into many of those races and you had to have that adaptability and, and, and, and go with it and figure out, well, this is what I can control. This is what I can't control. But, you know, there was, you know, going all the way, going way back, you know, swims getting canceled, some of the sketchy bike courses, you know, pushing on some of those courses and so on. So I think there's, I think the best athletes in the world, while they like that structure and what training brings, they also are not resistant to change and they look for opportunity in that.

SPEAKER_01:

And look, change is, you know, whether you like or dislike change, change is inevitable. And at the very least, I think change is uncomfortable. And anyone who says... oh, I'm super comfortable with change all the time. I mean, it's very easy to prove that not everybody is. I mean, just fold your arms. No, not that way. The other way, it's weird. It's like hugging a stranger. And that's just a very small change. And so as athletes, we come in to racing and training environments and all that. And for me, even walking around the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center campus, some might view that as risky because something could change at any point. And it was always a new path. So like, you know, for me, I had to learn to embrace change very, very early on if I wanted to be successful and feel fulfilled in life. And so like, you know, risk is, it is a balance of what's worth it? What's worth the risk and how bad do you want it? And these are all questions that we all have to ask ourselves at certain times throughout our growth as athletes, as people. Because if you play it safe all the time, you don't grow. For me, I... One of the things that I really struggled with early on in my career, my triathlon and endurance racing career, was finding people to swim, bike, and run with for training and for racing because I was afraid of reaching out to people to ask for help. I was fearful of being rejected. I was afraid of failure, but I was also afraid of rejection. And fear, basically, if you choose to look at it, it's the fertilizer for growth. So I think that's really important to remember as well.

SPEAKER_02:

So speaking of balance, I want to hear both coach and athlete's perspective. So as elite athletes, we're trying to reach the maximum of our abilities. From your coaching perspective, what is... that line between trying to push the athletes without getting injured. And like, how do you play that?

SPEAKER_07:

It's a great question. It's tough because I think one of the things that helped me was I saw all of you every day, right? So I could really get a sense of where you were, you know, emotionally, psychologically, but also physically. And I could know if this was a time to kind of twist the throttle and go, or it was a time not to. And I think, you know, um, you want to push and you want to take those risks, but, but if you get injured and we see that with athletes all the time, like if you get injured and you can't train or you can't make it to the start line, what good have we done? You know? And in fact, it's, it's, it's, it's a failure. So you're always measuring it and calculating it and how much can we get away with? And also when is a time to press? Like when is the time to really, really push and take that risk? And, um, I don't have a great formula. A lot of it is intuitive based on experience, and every single one of you, it was slightly different. It was telling Kyle, today you're going to do a 5K off the bike for time, or it was like, hey, we're going to go do our Popsicle Bridge 5K today, and there's a chance that... it goes really well. There's a chance that it doesn't, but also being able to step back and put it in perspective. So yeah, I don't have a great answer for that other than you're always weighing that risk reward, knowing if you don't take a little bit of a risk, then you're not going to, the athlete's not going to reach your full potential.

SPEAKER_05:

I think it's always like, we're always taking risks. Right. And our, I mean, for us that use prosthetics, so Haley, no Mo and myself, we like the risk, we have to trust in it, but there is a risk there where there's a risk that something's going to break. Like I remember there was a race, um, my belt broke and you were over there trying to help me fix it. Like, like, like right before the race. And that is back to the previous episode, just the trust that we have in each other as athletes, but also knowing that, I mean, that is something that could happen. You have to trust in it, but that's also a change. Like Kyle said, change is inevitable. Like it happens. And, um, I think the more we go through it, the more we trust ourselves, knowing that we will be okay on the other side. And there's these things that come into our life that we don't like COVID, like that completely upended, like all of our lives for how long that's a massive change, but we made it through it. And so hopefully that doesn't happen again, but if it does happen again, we can look back and think, oh, we made it through that. So then we're going to make it through this time. So I think every time we go through these changes, we're it helps us trust in ourself that we can get through what, whatever it is, whether that's athletically or personal lives as well. Like there's always challenges like life can be hard, but we make it through. I

SPEAKER_07:

think to piggyback on that and to expand on most previous question of, of I could trust each of you and we had such a relationship that I could trust that you understood the difference between like good pain and bad pain. Like this is beneficial or this is burdensome. And because there's always that weight, you know, any decision that you make or there's a burden component and there's a beneficial component. And you guys were always so good too, though, at recognizing, okay, this is good pain. Like this is really, really hard. And I am taking a risk. I'm putting myself on the edge of my abilities, if not beyond. And I think weighing that and knowing that versus like, hey, I have a pain issue. that is significant in my knee and we need to be mindful of it or in my shoulder or whatever that might be. So I think it was being able to differentiate between the two, both as a coach and knowing when to say, okay, let's push through this or, hey, it's time to back off because the downside risk is way too high. I mean, I think a lot about risk, I think about Haley a lot. I think about all of you, but like, I mean, you went through, you took some huge, huge risk going into Tokyo, And I'd be curious your thought process there and then how you were able to then bounce back from that risk taking.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like for me, the Tokyo quad was kind of just like the definition of risk taking. So the previous Paralympics in Paris, I raced with a. Prosthetic on the bike. You

SPEAKER_02:

mean

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Rio.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, what did I say? Oh, no. My bad.

SPEAKER_04:

She's been to too many games. She can't get them all straight.

SPEAKER_00:

It's hard. Big cities. It's hard. Yeah, so in Rio, my first Paralympics, I raced with... a biking prosthetic, and then my running leg was fixed. So I swung it around to the side. And then going in to Tokyo, I was kind of on this mission to leave no stone unturned, and I wanted to do absolutely everything in my power to set myself up for success. So I revamped all of my equipment. I ditched the prosthetic on the bike, and I moved towards what we call a stump cup, which is where I'm just pedaling with my sound leg, and my residual limb is just kind of resting on the bike. And then I also changed my running setup. So I went from having this knee that I swung around to the side to one with the knee joint. Two things that were like... Absolutely crazy. Like insane that I took that on. Um, like relearning how to ride a bike or how to, yeah, redo your entire running mechanics is like kind of unhinged, but I knew like, I need to take on this risk if I want any shot at getting to the top of the podium. And so, you know, super hard, like taking those challenges on what I think one panned out for me, the bike was set up is one that I stuck with. The run is one that ultimately I decided, um, you know, the risk wasn't worth it. And I eventually reverted back to my, my old one, but you know, taking on those risks and not just like, Because, yeah, I feel like sometimes there's risks that, like, come to you, you know? But these were ones that I actually sought out myself, and I put myself in this position that was super, super uncomfortable that I didn't really have to do. But by doing that, I feel like it kind of made some of those other maybe less risky things that I took on a little bit more manageable because I was like, I know how to do this. Yeah. But I also feel like there was this kind of emotional risk that was involved going into Tokyo. Because I think before the race in Tokyo, there was always a small part of me that just... I knew that I was never going to win a Paralympic gold medal. And so I think there was always just like a small part of me that was holding back a little bit. There was a self-protective mechanism that was in place. And, you know, going into Tokyo...

SPEAKER_07:

Like Haley, we... Explain that. Like if you didn't take the risk, you could kind of fall back emotionally and say, well, I didn't, I chose not to do this.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah. Like I think there was always something, you know, always something that I could kind of fall back on and like have, yeah. An excuse in my head for why I didn't, didn't reach it. Like, Oh, I didn't give it absolutely everything. Right. Um, but going into Tokyo, like I knew, um, that I did. I gave it absolutely everything. And that was really the first time where I allowed myself to believe I actually can win this. And that was inherently very, very, very risky, to be able to go all in and not have an excuse to fall back on. I don't think that's something that we do very often. And I think I learned why in Tokyo it didn't pan out. I gave absolutely everything I had, and it wasn't enough. And, you know, whereas in the past losses didn't feel quite as devastating this time, like it was, yeah, absolutely heartbreaking because I was all in. And so I think with that, I learned that like, yeah, putting it all on the line, like it is super, super risky, but it's also the only way that you can have these incredible moments of success. You know, had I not allowed myself to get to that place mentally, you know, I would have just kind of settled for this life of always, you know, being less than the best. Um, and so it's risky, but I think that ultimately in the end it is worth it because it enables you to set yourself up for those, those moments of, of pure joy. I

SPEAKER_05:

saw, I remember I saw a change in you in Paris. Like it was almost the Olympic when we were in the days at the end of the race, um, it was almost like your mindset, I would say, like we talked about, like, like, like you got this, you can do it. And like, even in the, when we were in, in Vichy, it was kind of like a, uh, uh, uh, like, can I, but then we got to Paris and the village and I'm like, you got this and you looked at me and you're like, I do have this. It was like, you had this mindset change somewhere along the way, which, and you did and you, and you did it. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So, yeah. Um, so we're speaking about sprint triathlon.

UNKNOWN:

Um,

SPEAKER_02:

And I want to go back to each one of you guys during a race. Is there any time where during the race you took a tactical risk to do something?

SPEAKER_03:

I've got a good one.

SPEAKER_05:

A tactical risk?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So COVID 2020 delays the games, delays the entire qualification period. I was in the hospital for five and a half months. I came out super overweight, super under trained, started training right away into that off season as we led into 2021. And the first race was in Yokohama, Japan. And I was in sixth position, I think. And I took a risk going through the technical section. I knew it was a risk, but I knew that I was faster there than the guy in front of me. And I was like, if I can get fifth place, that's better for qualification points. So I took that risk and I crashed into the fence. And I dropped down to seventh. If you look at the points and how much I missed Tokyo by, if I had... not taking the risk there and just worked harder on the straights to get into fifth, I would have qualified for the games without any other race.

SPEAKER_05:

That's something you can't even look up. I know, right? I know, that's hard.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and so I took a risk and it did not work out. And it like basically, even though I raced, if I'd had one other great racer, I would have gone too, but I took that risk early thinking like, oh, this is like a tactical risk that'll set me up and I'll be good. And instead... Looking back on it, I'm like, man, there's other places I could have taken less risk with probably the same.

SPEAKER_07:

It's easy for me to say, but I actually think that was the best thing that could happen to you because I see the athlete that you become and everything that you've learned. And I know it sucked not making that. But I almost, you know, your willingness to take that risk is why you've now become so successful. And had you... Cause who knows how it goes, but yeah, I, yeah, I, like I said, it's easy for me to say for, from this perspective, but I don't think you would be who you are now. I

SPEAKER_03:

totally know what you're saying. Like, I think if I'd gone to Tokyo, it would have been one of those things where I'm like, just happy to be here. You know what I mean? Just happy to have made it. And I would have probably been dead last, you know, and I'm glad that that wasn't my experience in Paris when I worked super hard, took a lot of risks that did work out and, and made it to Paris and had a legitimate chance at doing well. I

SPEAKER_05:

feel like tactical risks, a lot of times on the swim, do you just go hard and have someone follow you, or do you jump in behind somebody and try to catch their draft?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, I think we all know the bike is not my strong point. So I don't think I ever took any tactical. I don't think I had an option to take any tactical risks on the bike because I was like, everyone was passing me. Oh, I did take a risk in Sarasota. I took the sidewalk on accident. So that was my big tactical move. I actually semi cheated on a race and I admitted it right afterwards because I felt horrible. So that was my big tactical

SPEAKER_02:

move. Howie?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh yeah, I did a peace sign. You said I cheated twice.

SPEAKER_07:

You took a big risk at Patco though. That was a good one. Because you had to win that race to qualify for Paris. You knew you had to swim insane out of your mind and you did. And then you also rode.

SPEAKER_05:

You're right. That was probably the best race of my life.

SPEAKER_01:

You ran out of your mind in Miami that one day.

SPEAKER_05:

That's a good point. That was the best race that I've had for sure. And it's cause it's just, yeah, just that one mindset of what that one goal had to be. And, and we did it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Kyle, what about your tactical risk?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I, in races, you know, I, I, I think back to my, you know, it was actually at the same race that Howie was just referencing back in, in Yokohama, um, in 2021, it's like the first race coming out of, out of COVID. And we had no idea what the field was going to be like, how strong everyone was going to be coming out of COVID and, um, all that. And, you know, we had been, I think we had been working with, um, we had been working with John Deuce, uh, Deuce Lear, um, early on and, you know, in, trying to build up my swim and

SPEAKER_07:

Kyle, just for everyone, John was our, our swim coach, technical swim coach. He's awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And like between the coaching that he had done with me and your encouragement, Derek, you, you were just like, who's the best, like historically who has been the best swimmer, um, in the, you know, like historically Kyle, you have not been the best swimmer, but who has been, and I was like, well, that guy over there. And he's like, get on his feet. Just trust yourself. Like you've done these, you've done these hundreds, two hundreds, four hundreds, you know, and you've been crushing it in the pool and you're a better open water swimmer. Get out there, get on his feet, don't let go and see what happens. Um, and I did that. I actually wound up coming out of the water first. First, you know, it was only the, you know, it was, it was, I think it was only my second ever might even been my first ever series race. And yeah, it was my first ever series race. No, my second series race. And you know, here I am leading, leading the first big race out of COVID. And like, I knew that if I wanted to have a chance at going to going to Paris, cause I had, I had to get one of two spots. Um, and there were three of us going for, or going for Tokyo.

UNKNOWN:

Um,

SPEAKER_01:

I knew that I had to be first or second in Yokohama. So taking that risk on the swim set me up so that when I got to Hota and I came off the bike together, we had done so much work on my running over the COVID lockdown that I now had the confidence that I could sit just in front of just in front of Hoda. And I knew that I didn't have to go to the well until I was 800 meters out. And we had done some workouts that had built my confidence in that. And so I waited. I was patient. So my tactical point in that race was being aggressive in the swim so that I set myself up so that I didn't have to chase. then i became the person that dictated how the run was going to go and i set a pace just hard enough where my my competitor was just off my shoulder and at every turn zach and i just threw in a little surge and we forced you know the athletes to claw back and burn a little burn a match every single every single turn and that yokohama run course was not was very technical And then 800 meters out, Zach was like, now. And that's when we hit the gas pedal. And that last 800-meter stretch, I waited until then to absolutely go full gas. And it paid off with my first international win. And it turns out that was the race that actually got me to Tokyo. And Zach being your guide, just for clarification. Yeah, Zach being my race guide for Tokyo. for like six years.

SPEAKER_07:

Haley, what was it?

SPEAKER_00:

So I think sometimes when I think about taking risks tactically in a race, I think about how it might impact my competitors. Right. So like this might be a small risk for me, but it's going to have a big reward in the sense that it's like probably going to fuck with their head a little bit. And so for me, this showed up a lot on the bike. You know, I remember in Tokyo I got passed by the British athlete on on the bike and then and like the final race. half lap of the bike course, I realized that I was closing in on her. And I was like, I could burn a match right now and make a pass. And if I do that, she is going to crumble because she passed me a long time ago. She thought that I was way back there. And so if I can pull this off and enter T2 ahead of her, she's done for. And so... I mean, I probably spent about three seconds debating it. And then I was just like, this is worth it. I got to do this. And so yeah, that was certainly a risk. But I do think it accomplished what I needed it to do.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah. How about you,

SPEAKER_02:

Nia? I mean, I have two little stories. So one, back in 2016, so back then I was representing my home country, Morocco. And I was by myself, literally by myself. in a hotel in Copacabana in front of the course venue. And back then, there was a lot of talk about the water quality. Don't swim. Yeah, water quality. And for me, I grew up in Morocco. I know my stomach can handle that.

SPEAKER_03:

Lucky. Don't worry. I'm sure it was trending towards being perfectly fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But I see the beach is packed and people swimming. So I'm going to go swim. I don't care. And so I went like for the whole week swimming every day. And one thing that I noticed besides swimming and getting familiar with the swim and all that stuff that I need to, first of all, like get another pair and also like learn how to serve the wave because that's like at least 200 meter, 300 meter easy, right? And which also impacted how I swim, because I'm going to go all out from the beginning, because I know that the last stretch is going to be less effort and more technique. And it's crazy how it was magically perfect on race day. And I remember the French guy, Stefan Bailly, is always ahead of me. And we made the last turn, and we see the swim exit, and he's next to me. And it just clicked. Like, literally, I told myself, this is your day. Because I never... He's always ahead of me. And, yeah, serve the waves, and, like, it was a perfect day. So that risk of swimming the whole week there was... In Paris, we know all the situation with the river going out and back with the current. So downstream and then

SPEAKER_07:

back upstream.

SPEAKER_02:

Against the current. And to, like, have less current swim... close to the wall, to the right side. So basically the swim was, the first section went very well, and then I was next to the Spanish guy, and then made a U-turn, and I went to the, like I was behind his feet, and I was waiting for him to go to the right side, like most everybody did, but he didn't. He stayed like off the wall, and that moment was, Like, it took me like three, four seconds. Should I follow the strategy or stay behind these feet? And I decided to not take the risk, and I went to the wall. And it was the wrong thing because he was ahead of me by like 20 seconds. And I, it was like, for me, I knew that I can stay behind him. So that was like a risk that they didn't take. And I kind of regret that. But anyway, it is what it is. It's those moments. Yeah. You got to make a decision. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Mo, you're known, I think on our team, like you're, you're so happy, like all the time. Like you are. So when these things happen, I mean, you know, like you'll have a race and there it's not the result you want. And then we're like, hi. And you're like, it is what it is. Like, does it, do you kind of, are you able to kind of separate that and move on? Or does it like get to you? Cause you, you, you're always, even in a bad race where you don't have, like, you're just so happy with it.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I, I evolved over time. I used to be like, especially before Rio, I was like result, result. I don't care about the race. I don't, Like, I don't care about what's happened. I was so hard on myself. And I think over time, I start to appreciate a good race without the result. And the first one, I still remember, I think one of my best triathlon event was Ezeo 2017, 18? Yeah. And, like, that race, it was crazy race for me. Everything was perfect. Like the effort, the output, everything, I don't know. Even though I finished third, I just love that effort that I did. And I started appreciating more that it's not all about the result, it's the outcome. But what's the effort? What is your feeling? Do you feel like at the end of that race, you gave it all? And I think that race changed my mindset a lot, yeah, moving forward.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm wondering if we can talk about risk taking within the context of training. Cause something that I feel like Derek, you did a really good job of was encouraging us to take risks in the safe environment of training. Um, you know, I feel like a lot of times we as athletes just like, we want to execute the set perfectly, right? Like we're given a range on the swim that we're supposed to hit. And you're like, all right, I'm going to just do everything I can to stay in this range. And I feel like there were days, uh, where Derek, you would be like, Today, I don't care about the range. I just want you to take a risk. I want you to go out super, super, super, super hard on the first one and try to hang on. And if you fall off, that's okay. Now we know what the edge of your ability is, but we're not going to know what that is unless we train it. You're not going to know on race day unless you figure out what it is in training. And so I feel like those are some of my favorite workouts when we really just kind of tried to figure out where that edge was. Cause a lot of times I actually found that like I could take a really big risk and then still hang on for the rest of the set. But I probably wouldn't have known that if I would have just stayed in that range that I, you know, might've been prescribed.

SPEAKER_02:

I think Derek made that workout just for me cause I'm always reverse

SPEAKER_01:

negative. Well, and that's, and that's the thing. Some like, you know, it was a little bit of that where like sometimes the risk for me was like, Derek would challenge me to start slower and finish faster. And for a lot of us, especially going into Paris, the tactics that we knew was that you had to put more effort in going upstream. So if you went out guns a-blazing early on and you burned a match or two early on, you wouldn't have it for the way back. And so one of the things that, you know, that we got challenged was go out strong, like understanding the differences between strong, hard, and fast was a big thing that we had to learn. And so we learned to go out fast, not, you know, not necessarily, you know, we went out fast and strong, but not hard, right? And then learning how to translate going hard into going fast. And so that was a, you know, that was, and we had to learn that.

SPEAKER_07:

I think one of the challenges with triathlon, I mean, we would raise what four to six times a year, give or take, um, that's not a lot of racing. And a lot of people that may be listening to us that are age groupers, they may get to do two, three, four races a year. So you're really not in that competitive environment that often. And I think that's a downside because every time you get in that competitive environment, you oftentimes revert back to whatever's safe and whatever you know instead of being compelled to take a risk and really push through. And ultimately what we have to do is set the training up so that you'll take the risk in training. You'll learn from it because if you never take a risk in training, no matter what story you tell yourself, you're not going to take it in racing, right? You're going to default back to whatever that security blanket is. And so I think taking risk in training appropriately and at the right times is so important because otherwise you're not going to do it in racing. If you can't do it in training, if you're not doing it in training, if you're not executing to it in training, you're not going to change who you are on race day all of a

SPEAKER_02:

sudden. Do you think as we get older, we are less risk-taking?

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah, we're more risk-averse as we get older? Yeah. Yes and no. I think it works both ways. I think people that have built up that resilience and they've been through those experiences and they still want to get better, right? They still want to improve. Some people will accept that risk easier because but I think a lot of that actually has to do with being comfortable with yourself and being confident in yourself. Um, so I think, I think sometimes we're more risk averse, but I think other times we actually get better at it because we have that, that, that comfort in who we are versus trying to feel like, well, if I take this risk and I mess up, everyone's going to judge me for being a terrible athlete or, well, I'm going to take this risk. I don't care what anyone else thinks, but this is the only way I get better.

SPEAKER_02:

Cause I see it like just from like, It happened a lot with cycling. Like if I had like, I remember I had a bike crash during train session and like my bike handling just changed forever since then.

SPEAKER_03:

I

SPEAKER_00:

echo that.

SPEAKER_03:

But I think, you know, a lot of that idea that like you take less risk as you get older is more, you just have so much more experience that a lot of the risks that you need to take, you've already taken. taken and you it's you know you've mitigated those risks so for us especially in you know a sport that's outdoors and comes with hundreds of variables until you go out there and train in those variables and get comfortable with the risks that you're going to take in the race so that's training in the rain training in the wind going to ppir like we did and training you know how fast can i take this corner before i crash before i lift up on two wheels on my hand cycle. Because if you never take a corner like we do in Montreal at the U-turn at speed, you're not going to know how fast you can go in a race, right? And when you get to the race and you haven't done it, now suddenly you're taking a risk because you've never done it. But if you just practiced it, if you had trained it, then you get there and you're no longer taking a risk, right? You're taking maybe a calculated risk because there's still some risk to it. But you've experienced it. You have the experience. So

SPEAKER_07:

when we say PPIR, it's Pikes Peak International Raceway. So going into both the Tokyo Games and the Paris Games, we would rent out that racetrack about 30 miles south of the training center in Colorado Springs, and we would train on it. And they had a road course, and we could set that road course up with sharp turns. We could almost emulate a lot of what we were going to experience on the Paris course, which was really technical. So that's what Howie's referring to. of like PPIR taking those risks, pushing those corners. To a certain degree, that was a risk for me. I can't tell you how high the pucker factor was at times watching you guys, watching Zach and Kyle go through on that tandem, ripping around, and Mo by the end. I mean, Haley, and all of your improvements over time. But that was a risk that I had to be willing to take was to encourage you guys to put yourself in that position knowing that there may be downside consequences, i.e. a crash, but I'd much rather us figure out those limits there in a safe, as controlled of an environment as we were going to get versus, I mean, when I did the analysis of the Paris course and established, don't quote me on this, I'd have to go back, but 50 plus turns on that course over the course of five laps, if you lost half a second per turn, that's 25 seconds. Right? That's a difference between getting a medal and not getting a medal. So when I thought about risk-taking, I was totally comfortable with working with you guys on the tactical, the technique out there at PPIR, knowing that, well, you might dump it here, but we've got to figure out the edge of our abilities because we have to go into Paris knowing that you can rail those corners.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and what was cool about that road course at PPIR was that I feel like... we set them up a little bit tighter than the turns in

SPEAKER_06:

Paris. And

SPEAKER_00:

so, you know, we did the test event in Paris in, uh, you know, 2023 and we're like, Oh my God, this course is so hard. And then we went to the road course the summer of 24 and, you know, just practice, practice, practice. By the time we actually got to the Paralympics in Paris, I was like, Oh wait, this is actually like

SPEAKER_01:

the fun

SPEAKER_00:

course. Not that hard.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It was a, it was a fun, it wasn't like when you look at it, any, like, because we had, we had raised our level of skill, like that's what we had done. And, you know, unfortunately for me, I didn't, you know, you know, I didn't get to push my, the edge of my ability on the, on the bike to the extent that we had, we had practiced because, you know, I unfortunately had to change out guides last minute, um, due to some some water quality issues. So

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, let's talk about that because that's also like risk-taking because your guide,

SPEAKER_01:

Zach. Yeah, like, so Derek and I, Derek, you and I talked about this post-Paris and, you know, because some, we were all kind of, you know, me and Zach and Marty and you were all criticized for not preparing more for the possibility of a guide being not able to race. And we had to weigh that risk factor of, do we do more? What gets us the best bang for our buck in terms of training outside? And we knew that for me to have my best chance at a podium, coming home with a medal in Paris, was to have Zach on the front of the bike. And so we opted to take the risk of not putting Marty on the front of the bike as often. Um, and unfortunately that was a risk that didn't pay off. Um, you know, we took the risk of doing a recon of doing a recon swim, um, you know, doing swim familiarization a few days before. And, you know, unfortunately Zach got really, really sick and was not able to race. And so, that that risk that we took in not preparing marty and me better to race together it backfired but the risk that we took in bringing in you know a training partner like marty made me able to execute probably one of the most brilliant runs i've ever had in my life in paris

SPEAKER_07:

yeah i think you

SPEAKER_01:

know

SPEAKER_07:

We change our appetite for what we're willing to tolerate, what we're willing to give up, what we're willing to sacrifice changes. You know, you ask about as we get older, and I think Kyle's example is a really good example of that. Kyle and Zach were willing to risk and potentially tolerate Zach not, or one of them not being able to start the race in order to go do a familiarization swim in the Sin, which we knew the water quality was iffy at best. But the willingness to do that because you feel like it has an outside, or it has the potential to have an outsized impact on your result is... something that when you start to get to high-performance sport, I think a lot of people just discount that. They don't totally understand, well, why would you do that? Well, why would you do that? Well, you're weighing every little thing to try to squeeze every little bit of performance out of an athlete. And that's a risk that we are willing to take, knowing there's a downside. But if we don't take it, and then we end up not getting the result that we think we're capable of... Now you're going to reflect back. I mean, you're going to be second-guessing yourself the whole time.

SPEAKER_01:

Look, just not to stay focused on that, but that swim fam did pay off because Marty and I had a brilliant swim as well. It did pay off because Zach was able to give Marty such incredible intel on how to take that turn that we were fourth in that line, and all of a sudden we were first because we Zach had given Marty that intel. It wound up hurting us on the bike. It's about taking the positives away from it as well.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you can touch on what Derek was saying. You can what if a race to death in the decisions you make, but what's really important, what we do in the military is just an after-actions review. You go over what you wanted to have happen, what did happen, what you could do better in the future, and then you do three things you could improve on. And three things that you want to sustain for the next race and you move forward

SPEAKER_07:

and you move forward. That's it.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's move forward. Thank you all. See you next time.

SPEAKER_01:

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