Fortitude and Principles in Government are Difficult

Fr. Aaron speaks with Dothan City Commissioner Dave Stock, who is the Commissioner for Dothan, Alabama city district #4. Having been in elected office less that a year, Commissioner Stock has stood out as being willing to "go against the grain" on numerous occasions and maintain the minority viewpoint of hotly debated topics. They talked about how his years in military service instilled in him the internal resources to ask the tough questions and draw upon that courage when taking an unpopular stance. He also spoke frankly about the nature of public criticism enabled by social media, and the thick skin needed for public service. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hello everyone. Today I had the pleasure of talking with Dothan City Commissioner Dave Stock. He's the commissioner for the Dothan City of Dothan District 4, and was elected to the office last year. Now, since then I've been watching his uh the his voting record and his performance among the city commission board, and I've noticed that quite often on various different issues, he's had to be the minority view. In essence, take a principled stance on something that would win against the grain and wasn't popular with everyone else. In many cases, he admits that possibly he might have been a wrong decision, but it was based upon what he thought was right at the time, instead of just going along to get along. Well, that level of fortitude in public service doesn't seem as common as we would all hope. And so he agreed to come talk to me about the courage necessary in order to m take an unpopular stand sometimes in various different areas where he's had to serve so far. His years as a pilot in the United States Army is given him helping give him the internal resources to draw from when he has to make those uh principal decisions. Anyway, I think it was a fascinating conversation. I hope you'll join us for this journey. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me. Now, uh, you're uh city commissioner for district four. That's correct. What are the boundaries for that?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Um, so we have an area that's uh south of Main Street as you get towards um like South Park. So that's kind of South Park area is pretty much our boundary as it continues all the way down through um till the city limits. Um so Main Street and that South Park area, and then we go all the way out Main Street to the circle. So inside the circle, so Jamestown neighborhood, things like that. Okay. And then as you continue down uh inside the circle to Fortner Street, we run Fortner Street pretty much all the way out to the southwest.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Um most everything on the south side of Fortner Street, with the exception of a couple neighborhoods, um, but we do have like Highland South and uh and that as well. So it's kind of a hodgepodge way it's mixed up, but we have everything like the stadium area um you know is in district four where we just have no pickleball courts and and where the Doth and Dragons play soccer. So we got a little bit of everything. It's very diverse, very broad, very large district.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Socioeconomically, it's very diverse as well. It is, it is and um you have uh it uh station two is out in yeah, out that way, you know, to the southwest. Um, and then because I I tend to I my mind gravitates toward the fire surface, and so I like tend to put myself where everything, all the stations are, and my wife's like, no one else knows where the station lives. But uh, if you're you're from south, if you're Main Street South, and that includes station 10, um, and then two is for further south, and Dothan Utilities is out that way as well. That's right. So it was fun learning all these things through the Dothan 101 encounter in class. So that was really cool. But you were elected last year, correct?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I was, I was. I was kind of late to enter the race. Um, I late May is when I decided I was gonna throw my hat in the ring, and then the election was August 5th, and so we had a very condensed campaign, very hectic summer last summer, very hot summer. Um, and so yeah, that was uh first time getting into politics. Uh I said I wanted to serve my community.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

And I what possessed you to to jump into that, you know, Sasha's grinder.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Well, I mean, I always I've always followed politics, but being a military guy for 23 years, you really can't participate, right? You know, at least publicly. Um you can vote, but that's about it. Right. Uh so I've always followed it, but never really had an opportunity. Um, and you know, I really wanted to serve my community. I did. Um, and there was another candidate in the race who um I just honestly uh I didn't really feel comfortable with giving him my vote. And so rather than saying, hey, um, you know, I'm just gonna complain because you're not a good candidate, that's not how I am. So I said, I'm gonna go ahead and run. And um, and the guy's a good guy. I just I think we disagreed, you know, on some on some things. So so I said, Yeah, I'm gonna run. And I did. And um, you know, got the family together and went and talked uh with our pastor, and we're like, hey, this is a big, this is a big ordeal.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Um, you know, because I don't do anything lightly. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna try to do it to the best of my ability. So we went all in and I managed my entire campaign myself, did all the marketing myself. Um, I funded it 100% myself. Okay. Um, so it was a big undertaking. Um, but uh, but yeah, we did it and we were victorious, won 5545 um in uh August, and then we were sworn in the first week of uh October.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

I remember when you came in. Um I think I may have been at one of those city council city commission meetings when you first began, and it was it was it was something. But from that very beginning, I've consistently kind of noticed that there are times when you're willing to be kind of the minority view on certain issues. Sure. And I that left me curious because um, you know, the there's I don't know that we ever outgrow the comforts of popularity.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

No, I mean I think it's it's almost a human basic need. I'm welcome to accept it, no doubt.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

I I've I've been there many times, and there's a sense in which, well, everybody else is doing this thing. Why why do I have to be the odd one out? That seems that's kind of an uncomfortable place. And if you're not naturally internally constituted just to be a contrarian, um, it there's there's a little bit of uh fortitude that it's required because it's not comfortable to be the one that kind of like uh I'm I have a different view than everybody else. And but I've noticed that that's something, a role you've been willing to take on a number of different occasions. I mean, uh all case in point. Um I went through DOTM101, and that when you're I forget this gentleman, it may have been Tommy Wright or someone else, but someone at the city, one of the city services, it may have been um I can't remember the name of the department, but they were describing the the traffic uh diet. Yeah, that would probably be Tommy Wright, okay. Public works. And so um so as that was being described to me, of course, the back of my mind, I sat back and thought, I I couldn't think of any objections to it. It seemed reasonable that you would not only this experiment, everyone else, many people are inconvenienced, but nevertheless, it's all data. The scientist, I mean, goes, well, you can never be without, you know, you can never lack enough data. I mean, you know, find out whether or not you're able to incentivize traffic to go around downtown as so long as Aldot's allowing it. Um, see if you're able to incentivize more industrial, larger traffic to go around downtown, if you want to promote um downtown as a more pedestrian-friendly place. Right. And it seemed to make sense to me at the time, but I suspended judgment on that because there's a lot I know, there's a lot that I don't know. So, but I still heard the heard what was described, and and then I so I came to the uh city commission meeting and I find that there is another view on that. And I'm like, that piqued my curiosity. And so I thought, well, not only was there another view on that, there was you're the the only one giving the differing view uh on this. And I thought, okay, well, now I really want to know how it is that uh someone know you know thinks this through and goes, uh I'm going to stand on XYZ view or principle in the face of maybe uh a bunch of colleagues all going, uh, you know, you think this is reasonable. Like, yeah, but I I disagree. And that that requires fortitude. And I and I think that's a seemingly kind of a rare trait in some cases. And so I wanted to ask you about that. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Well, first off, uh, thank you for having me come today. Um, I would say um you have to look at my background a little bit, right? So I grew up very poor in St. Louis. Um, we had five kids in our family, um, parents both blue-collar, and um just I I struggled growing up like a lot of people who don't come from wealth. Um, you know, we had a lot of challenges, and I was on you know, free lunches at school, and you know, my parents were you know on welfare and we had church, I had a lot of hand-me-down things. So I understand what struggle is. Yeah, um, I grew up that way. And then, you know, I joined the military when I was 19. What branch, I'm sorry. I was in the army uh for 23 years, and I ended up um becoming a pilot and um just had a very, very exceptional career. Just, you know, the Lord obviously worked uh his magic because you know, um, I've had the opportunity to meet presidents on multiple occasions and worked very interesting things over my career um that some poor kid from St. Louis, you know, could not have planned the career that I had.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Where'd you fly?

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I flew Blackhawks primarily. Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Um, but uh also I have a person or training on those right now.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Okay, yep. So Blackhawks, I flew Lakota's, which are right here at Fort Rucker for been here for a long time. I flew them before they came to Fort Rucker, and then uh also some small airplanes. Okay. But so my military experience, you know, so I understand what it means to work, I understand what it means to, you know, at a very young age, I was actually my parents got divorced when I was 15. Um, you know, I was working full-time uh at Taco Bell, getting 40 hours a week when I was in high school. Um, and the reason it was Taco Bell is because they were open until 2 a.m. on the weekends, and I could get a lot of hours after school and then on the weekends. So I I literally paid for everything that I needed and was on my own until I uh joined the army. So uh I understand what it means to work hard, understand what it means to operate in business and to look, and I understand leadership.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

I I hate to interrupt you, but it just sounds, I'm sorry, that's such an American story. Uh because I I interact with some who got into they they knew what they wanted to do, they go to college, they get their training, they got their career, and that's what they did. It's like their career path is almost like this aqueduct that goes straight across the landscape, and it's a straight shot. I'm like, well, good for you. A lot of us know when our first minimum wage shot was, how many the paper route we had before that, before you know, and so all these different we have many different uh circuitous ways into our success that were lessons we learned along the way. And it just seems like that's kind of like a very much and I do this, I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but it's almost like a biographic Americana in a sense. So many different experiences that you had the opportunity to have along this way. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it just stood out to me while you're talking.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

No, I mean, and you're right. And and I mean, I do believe we live in the best country because I do believe um it's if you do work hard, um, and you know, we're not all guaranteed the same outcome, but I do believe we're all guaranteed the same opportunity. And um, I mean, when I was 12, I was cutting grass so I could buy new tennis shoes. You know, like I didn't have a new pair of tennis shoes before that point. And I remember um going out and buying some Reebok pumps, you know, they were the they were the coolest thing. And I cut a lot of grass to be able to buy those shoes. Um, and then you know, I just I've I've been working since a very young age, but I say all that because, you know, when you when you parents didn't go to college, um, you know, so to to later in life be able to go to college and get an education, to experience the crucible of the military in combat, out of combat, um, leadership. Um, and this all gets back to the point of like, well, how does someone you know get to this point in life where I don't like confrontation, but I'm not afraid of confrontation? Um and it's because I think I've got courage and I've got experience. And um, you know, it's not easy. It's not easy to go against, but what people don't see, and I believe this to my core, there's more people who agree with me in the public than what you see. Um, and so I talk to my constituents on a very frequent basis. A lot of them have my phone number, they call me, um, you know, they'll email me, they'll instant message me. So I am very well connected to my constituents and to a lot of people in the city who are not my constituents, but they know that I'm willing to listen. Um, so a lot of people will call me. Um, I do think it it is harder to go against the grain, that's where that courage comes in, than it is to just go along. And there are some folks in this town, and I hate to be negative and to say this, but they try to make your life as difficult as possible, hoping you will just go along. And that's true. Um, we have there's people with ghost Facebook accounts, fake face, Facebook accounts that will get on there and troll people on Facebook. Oh, good. These are very connected people in our town doing this, and they're very well informed about everything that's happening. And and you can go look at next time people are on Facebook, just look at some of the comments and then look and see their profiles and how they don't have any friends or one or two, you know, connections. Um, and all they do is just vitriol is what they spew. Um, and so they do this to try to intimidate. Yeah, um, they've created fake accounts and um sent nasty messages to myself and to my wife. Oh gosh. Um, yeah, this is this is really what happens. Um, they say a lot of things that aren't true. I I was on a city trip in my room, in a hotel room, you know, working on um Alabama League of Municipalities certified municipal officer training, and they're like, messing with my wife saying, Your husband's out running around. You know, I mean, this is the type of stuff that is happening, and I'm like, Well, I'll show you what I'm working on, you know. I mean, so there's just some really, really nasty folks that um I think take things way too far, obviously. Um, but they do that to try to intimidate you. They do that to try to make you go along with what they want, and that it's just not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

So um I've been a priest for just about a year and a half now. Um, I previously had been in full-time ministry many years ago. I was a pastor of a Baptist church in East Texas and in a thriving metropolis called Fate, Texas. And it just moved from a population of 500 to 5,000 because of subdivision that was going in. And it was really interesting because I, you know, it was fun. I was the chaplain for the local fire department. They're very proud of their fire department. And so the city council what well, he's the chaplain for the fire department. It's the station's the largest structure in the town. So we'd like him to do as chaplain just to prefer just about anything the city needs a chaplain for. So I was giving the invocation of just about every dedication of anything, uh, you know, city council events, uh park dedications, whatever. It was kind of cool. I felt like I was walking through Maybe May Berry, because you walk down the street and the gas station owner and the dozen and the donut shop owner is like, hey, Pastor, good to see you. So it was pretty cool. Well, then you start, um, you're kind of in that cool crowd where they're kind of going, Pastor, will you come, you know, give the invocation to our council city council then? Sure, yeah, no problem. And so you do that with some regularity, and next thing you know, you're on a first name basis with the city council members, and the mayor goes to a hockey game with you. And boy, I was never cool in high school. Seems like I can make up for some lost time now. And so my chief pulls me aside and he says, Hey chap, I need to talk to you. Um, you kind of look a lot through people through these kind of, I mean, I'm not calling you naive, but you do try to see the good in people. I'm just kind of concerned you might kind of walk into a grinder. What do you mean? He says, Well, watch out, and he starts kind of sharing with me a little bit in you know, a little bit of things. He says, and watch out for that guy over there. He's a snake in the grass. I'd never heard that term before. I grew up in the way up in the mountains of northern California. I mean, but is this is a term that he's he's a snake in the grass, let me tell you. And it turns out he was the pastor of the other channel church in town, also. You know, I was like, Really? That guy? Oh, yeah. And I and he was absolutely right. And so I uh he kind of was trying to make me a little wary of okay, um, just do what you do, do what you do, but just remember that that's the arena. I'm like, this town's too small for something like that. He goes, Oh no, it's not. No, don't you don't fool yourself. And I thought, my goodness. Well, I uh it's now put me on a journey of just thinking about human nature. That's right. And the size of the town doesn't really matter because it's full of people. Yeah, anyway. So the same human stuff happens. And uh and I and I learned that lesson back in fate, and that for many years I wasn't a pastor just because for some reason I thought God doesn't want me, doesn't want to impose me on the church like that. And so I was, you know, if you know the story of Jonah, I was on this, you know, carnival cruise to Tarsus, kind of thumbing my nose at the whale swim, you know, circling the boat. And then eventually he goes, like, okay, you're done fooling around, come back. And so I come back here and I'm spending a lot of time in in Dothan, loving every minute of it. Feels very much like my hometown where I grew up, and I'm encountering city politics again. Sure. And I had to kind of resurrect some of those old lessons. Yeah. That when that that when someone walks up and shakes your hand and says, I'm glad to see you, that's not always true. They're not. Sometimes they're not.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I get a lot of fake smiles. A lot, lot, a lot of you know, customary handshakes. Um, you know, but I think uh the things you're saying are true. I mean, human character, human nature, um, you know, there's sin in this world, right? And um there are people who try to carry uh an image, and I'm not perfect, I've made tons of mistakes in my life. Um, there's all kinds of things that um, you know, I regret doing, of course. But um, you know, I've I've been going to Ridgecrest Baptist Church ever since we moved to Dothan, so 14 years ago. Um, just such a great church, great community, and uh, and I know I'm imperfect. I know I'm forgiven, and um, and I know every day I try to do better.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Um, but you know, there's a difference between folks who, you know, they want to keep up an image and what is their heart. And um, I think it's easy to see someone's heart if you look at what their intentions are, right? You know, and are your intentions good and you just you know you fail sometimes because we all fall short? Sure. Or is it just there's that hatred, there's that, there's that, you know, constant battle. And I mean, I've seen that. And that's the part where a lot of folks ask me, what's the worst part about the job? And I mean, honestly, I I'm not a naive person, but I really didn't think it'd be this this kind of hateful on this level where where you know someone posts something positive about me on on Facebook, and then there's someone just immediately jumping on, you know, and trying to trying to do the opposite. So my gosh. There's just a lot of hate out there. But you know, for me, when you ask that question about, well, how can you do it? Um, you know, it it gets back to you know, my upbringing, uh, my values, my morals, my ethics, uh, my military experience, my support of family's gotta play a big role. It does. It does, yeah. Um, and then you know, the military um, you know, it tries to instill courage in you. You do a lot of things, you know. I've been I've been in Iraq, I've been in Bosnia, you know, I've served in Korea. Um, I've been in a lot of hard situations, much harder than what I'm experiencing here in Dothan, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

You know, so some people give me a hard time on social media, is the really the least of my concerns. I think it's kind of pathetic, um, but it's um, you know, that's not gonna scare me. So when you look at some of these votes, you talked about like the road diet. Um, I went and talked to people. I talked to businesses, you know, in this area and like, hey, how is this affecting you? And it's like, I can't pull out of my business anymore. Oh, well. You know, the traffic is so backed up, like people can't get to me. I used to be able to get, you know, um clients coming in from this direction or that direction. Now they can only get me one direction. So there's all types of things. And you know, when I ran for this office, I promised my constituents, and I talked to thousands of people. I mean, I was door knocking, I was out there. This was not a social media campaign. This was a boots on the ground, me out there getting to uh tell people who I am and what my heart is. And I think that's why I connected with so many. In fact, if you look at that election, I received more votes than any other candidate anywhere in the city, except for like a citywide race. Okay. So, you know, the mayor, school board, those are citywide, right? Right, right. Uh school board chairman. But besides those two, I received more individual votes than anybody else during the entire election. Um, and I think that's because I did get out there and I connected and I told people I was gonna do what's right. And, you know, people have different opinions on what right is. Right. Um, I think there's only really there's usually only one truth, but there's different perspectives on well, you take this into account or that into account, so I'm trying to do the overall best right thing. So the road diet was very, very nasty. Um, we got emails from people, and if I showed these emails to folks, um, these are very well-known people in town, and they were just hateful and condescending.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Oh, no.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

And how short-sighted we were.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

That was one of the comments that stood out to me. And I'm like, hmm. So because I have a different opinion from you, all of a sudden now I'm short-sighted. Maybe I have more facts, more information, more data that you know. So um, it is hard. It's hard when you have these things um and you're and you're going up against, you know, what I call the establishment. It's a lot of people who are just dug in.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

And um and in in in modern political parlance, we tend to think of the establishment as something that's distant away in Washington, DC. And and it's not, it's a mentality that actually can permeate as the smallest towns across America, too. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And I think um I did not grow up in politics, you know, but I've again I've been a student of politics and I've watched and I've learned, and and I know some great politicians. Um, you know, we have a a great representative in Barry Moore, very faithful. Guy. He's gonna, I know he's gonna be our next senator, someone. And you know, I've known him for a couple years, and I'll call and ask him questions and bounce things off him. But, you know, doing what you feel is right, not on based on your morals, your ethics, and your convictions, of course, yeah, but then also what's best for the people. And over the last year, I've gone to a number of these different training sessions that's put on by this league of municipalities in Alabama. And many of the speakers, they reinforce us like, don't just do what's good for a few. You know, you have to look out for your entire community.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

And unfortunately, I think in the past, I'm not trying to these comments I make a lot of times people they take things I say the wrong way. They want to internalize it, something negative. When I say something like, hey, for the long time, I don't think we've done what's best for all the people. Um that's not a dig on anyone commissioner or whatnot, but you know, it's like, are we really doing what's best for a large group? And so, like the road diet's a classic example. That was disrupting the lives of a lot of people, a lot of people to try to slow traffic down a little bit between two blocks.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Right. And on those two blocks, there were maybe eight or nine businesses, you know, total. So, you know, the traffic getting from one side of uh Main Street to the other side of Main Street, we have we control the traffic lights, we control signal timing. Right. Um, you know, I got pretty upset when I felt like we were promised something. We were promised that we would have the final say on that road diet. And then at the last minute, it's like, oh, well, L dot decides. That's not what you told me. That's not what you told all the commissioners, you know. And so at some point, we you know, we have to take a stand and uh and say, hey, we're gonna stand up for what it what we feel is right. And so that got a little bit more heated than I wanted it to. Um, I don't like going on the news, I don't like um being out there in in in public and and calling people liars. I don't. Uh it's not what I'm not a naturally I'm not a confrontational person.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

You talked about that's the problem. You see, my vanity knows no bounds. And I'll j I'll jump in front of the camera all day long. But typically, as I'm always trying to like say something nice, but uh but for yourself, you had to kind of like be vocally the minority view. Does that create tensions? I mean, I hate to I don't know what people mean oftentimes when they talk about the idea of backroom deals. That's always like a negative connotation. But for many of us who want our government to operate efficiently efficiently, don't you want conversations to be able to happen across the across the hall without having to you know appeal to the news? And I'm I imagine what is there is there a side that you go, man, I wish we could have taken care of this just as colleagues rather than having to make it a such a public statement. Is there a beside of that or is it just it was necessary to put it out there like that?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

I I share both feelings, both both thought processes. Part of me feels like, hey, our public expects us to debate and expects us to talk things out in public so they can see what's going on. So I agree with that aspect of it. I also agree with the fact that, yeah, they're not everything, you know, some things are easy and you know, we can work out, you know. So, but I think the contentious or more challenging issues that we face as a city, the public expects that debate. In fact, the law requires us to um to have that public debate. So the Open Meetings Act that we have in Alabama, you know, you're not supposed to have more than three commissioners together talking about things. You can't even do chain meetings where you have one talking to the other, talking to the other because it's the phone game from school. That's right. And they they but they want people to have that public debate. They want people to have that that and it's okay to disagree. And that's something I try telling folks, it's okay to disagree. The road diet, I won that. I mean, I mean, we as a as a minority, I was on the winning side, but I mean, there were four commissioners who voted in favor of returning it back to the way it was. So um I was the only one to really speak out about it, but I was on the right side of the issue. And so I think when you ask about, well, why was I the only one speaking out? I mean, it gets back to that courage and it gets back to, you know, who's really comfortable with the confrontation. Again, not that I seek it, but I'm not afraid of it. Um, so that's the difference. Sometimes I've been the only one, like I was the only one to vote against the electric rate study um that the city wanted to do.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

The electric rate study. Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Um, so that was one of my first few votes uh last year. The city manager wanted us to do a study on all of our electric rates. And I'm like, well, there's only one reason why you'd want to do a study, and it's to raise the price of our electric.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

I see.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Um, and when I ran last year, um, I mean, there's there's so many great stories of folks I met, but we have people who can barely pay their bills today.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Yeah, there's there's like I said, we're uh socioeconomically we're rather diverse. I mean you've got the high end, you've got the low end of you, and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

And there's a lot more on the lower end. There are. Um, and there's a lot of folks who and and I'm not talking about just people making bad choices and not, you know, whatever. Right, right, right. There's a lot of elderly folks who are on fixed incomes who I visited this one home and um I knocked on the door, and this elderly lady answered the phone, and I kind of gave her my little card, my and my spiel, and I'm like, um, you know, just with asking for your vote and your trust. And she said, Well, my husband just got home from the hospital. Can you come inside for a minute? And so I'm like, sure. So I stepped inside and and she introduced me and she said, Can you uh can you go ahead and tell him again? And about that same point in time, just the heat from inside the house was like almost overwhelming. It was so warm in there. Um, and as I got to talk to them, it was quite obvious they're not running their air conditioner because they can't afford to. You know, so this was a couple easily in their mid 80s, just trying to survive. And so I met a lot of folks like that. And I think our job is to represent our people and to look out for everybody. And so when I heard about this electric rate study, and I I can tell you a hundred other stories just like that, but when I heard about this, I'm like, well, what's the intent? We wouldn't have this if we we wouldn't even pay the money to do this, 100 grand, and we were gonna get some of that back um in the long run. But um why would we do that if we weren't gonna try to raise the rates? And one thing that I love about our our area is the cost of living is relatively cheap compared to any place else I've ever lived, all across the country. Um, and the data, in fact, is funny. A little tangent, we get all these great news stories like hey, Dothan, Alabama is one of the top five places to live in the entire state based on cost of living.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Right. And so then we have all these people who are working against that. They want to raise this, they want to raise that. I'm like, you're impacting our cost of living, and now you're gonna make it more expensive. So now all these great things you like to highlight won't be the case anymore.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Um what was the counterargument though at the time? You know, was there was did someone argue for the necessity based upon um you know uh maintenance to power lines, the power grid, and so forth? I mean, what was the counterargument? Yeah, I'll get to that here in one second. I mean, I don't like anything to go up either. I really don't um I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

So our our Dothan Utilities is one of the best utility providers of anywhere I've ever lived. Okay. And we are profiting a lot of money every year. Uh profiting, we're talking millions and millions of dollars in profit after all of our expenses. So we actually put a lot of money into our general fund from our utility fund. So the utility department's run like its own business. Okay, and it is doing very well. So the reason why they wanted to do this was because, well, other utilities are charging more money. That was what we were told. So Alabama Power is not cheap, you know. And I'm not trying to dig on Alabama Power, you know, they've got a business model and shareholders, but let me tell you, um, they are not cheap. Dothan Utilities is the cheapest electric service provider in the area by far. Okay. And it's like, well, everyone else is charging more, so we can probably, you know, and this study is going to come out later this summer or this fall. We haven't even got the results back yet, but it was supposed to be comparing us to other utilities to see if we had the ability to kind of match them and come up some. I see. So just because there's no there's no economic need unless we want to pay for a new arena or other things, but there's no there's no reason why the cost of maintaining that service required us to go up. So I was the lone person that voted against that. Um, and the reasons why I just share with you is because I'm like, we we already have a good service, we're making millions of dollars a year, um, we're not losing money on it, and we have people who can barely run their air conditioner just to survive today. I'm not gonna do that to them.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

They didn't there no one even offered the argument uh that, well, by increasing revenue in category A, you actually are able to fund category B that is doesn't, you know, that is not a revenue stream, but is still necessary to the community. I mean, like police and fire is not a revenue stream. Oh, parks, you know, parks aren't either. Right. So no one even made that argument.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Well, that's I think that's a that's the constant argument. Oh, I see. There's a constant argument of we have other things. I think if you look in police and fire, um, and I'm not gonna quote the exact number, but they take over half of our budget. You know, I mean, they're very expensive, um, and they do a great job. We need them, but they're very expensive. So, yes, I mean you're always gonna have parks, you know, just maintaining parks, and you're and um and you're gonna have those expenses for the police and fire. So there's there's quality of life and there's um safety and security that that we have to have. Um, but at the expense of what? You know, and that's and that's what it gets back to. It's like, well, there's probably some ways we can do this, and there's some ways we can't. And there's other things, um, you know, like the furniture. The furniture kind of blew up real big last, you know, last actually, there was a vote on it last fall, and I voted against the million dollars of furniture then. And then it came up again. They didn't even tell us it was coming up a second time, it came up a second time for another 1.4 million. And to be honest, we were all kind of caught off guard. Like, what do you mean? I thought we just voted on this. And, you know, the argument that was made is well, it's in line with standard building because standard building dollar amounts because we're spending $70 million on this new city hall complex, these two buildings, $70 million. Uh, not $50, but $70. So, based upon that amount, if you use this standard industry percentage, then this is well below what we should be. And I'm like, hmm, okay, what's the cost per square foot of the buildings that we're building compared to a normal building? Right? So if we're paying two to three times per square foot for what a normal building would be, then we're artificially increasing the amounts of furniture. And then again, I mean, I was quite all right. I think last fall when this came up, I said, I'll back my truck up here and move my furniture to my new office. No problem. I mean, nothing wrong with my furniture.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Um, so you know, we have these my wife is an accountant. I am I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I was at the that was the that vote came up, or something was rose up about the furniture when the same one when where the Dotham 101 class was being recognized. And so um for their completion. Yeah. And so my wife actually came, was sitting with me in the back, and she's an accountant, and she spent many years in audit. And so uh she's like she was prepared to be bored out of her mind with the rest of the meeting until that, except for the part where I you know we get up and they're we're recognized for completing Doth and 101. Right, but all of a sudden her radar starts really pinging uh as um uh is it uh Commissioner Badwell?

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Uh Bedwell.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Bedwell, uh he he spoke about it, and then others were speaking about the furniture problem, and she started doing calculations in her brain. She's like, who what's their audit company? Who's who's uh looking for all the different uh financial accountability on how necessary is it to spend $1.4 million on when on furniture? And does that suggest you have no existing adequate furniture right now? And what will happen with all that furniture? What how will that become a revenue stream when that's sold or auctioned or whatever, whatever? And so it's she's starting to so suddenly now she's interested in the rest of the kernel meeting.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

And and this is where it gets uh again, I don't have any ill will towards any of the city staff at all or any of my fellow commissioners, but I have a difference of opinion. Right. And I think it should be okay. Um when a commissioner disagrees with me, I don't hate them, I don't go online and bash and say this person's horrible. I'm like, but I have a philosophical disagreement. So it can be passionate, though. Yeah, yeah. There's nothing wrong with being passionate, but you know, at the end of the day, I mean, I disagree with Commissioner Crutchfield and some things, and we have no problem going to lunch and talking about different things. And you know, we did a great tour of Amazon together um, you know, yesterday. And but but yeah, so when it gets back to the furniture, yeah, yes, we have suitable furniture. Well, it this doesn't match the appearance of the new building, or we have we things like that. And my job is again, if I just think about what Dave Stock wants, you know, I think I'm doing something wrong. I should be caring about what the people want. I'm here to represent the people. And I think every one of us should be thinking more about that. What do the people want than what do we want individually? And so I I feel like maybe sometimes, you know, our our team doesn't do that. And they think, well, this is normal, this is standard. And again, I have commissioners call me and say, why can't my road be repaved? And then when I ask, you know, our public works or our city staff, I'm like, hey, where are we in the budget for this? Uh, we don't have the funds. I'm tired of hearing we don't have the funds when we're wasting money on furniture that we could just move some. And I will tell you, we're gonna be trickling down for our furniture. So my furniture, my office will end up in some other director's office, and then it's all gonna trickle down. Right, right. And then the worst of the worst will just get thrown away, I'm sure. So, you know, it's it's kind of challenging. And again, I don't mind being the only person to speak up because I know I belie and I believe this in my heart that the majority of people agree with kind of with my feelings. Um, although not every commissioner maybe has the courage. Commissioner Bedwell did stand up. And his his point that he made was a little bit different than mine. We got a com we get a commission packet, and it's it's very similar, if not exact, to what's put out online. Sometimes we get additional details uh if we have questions, but there was no itemized cost. I think there were some things missing, um, uh, you know, as far as like what what is every piece of furniture we're getting and how much. We didn't get that. We got some general things. If you look at that packet, some general, you know, groupings and some total cost, you know. So I believe sometimes things are not provided to us on purpose. I do. And they're probably not provided because they don't want the public or the media to get their hands on them because uh some things, you know, may not come out well. So Commissioner Bedwell's perspective, and not to speak for him, but what he said publicly was I have a hard time on voting for another 1.4 million, in addition to the other 1 million that was already voted on and approved, uh, not by me, but um $2.4 million worth of furniture, and we can't even get an itemized, you know, legitimate cost breakdown and show me how it adds up to that. Yeah, so that's the part where, again, as elected officials, and I every vote I take, I read the entire packet, I know what I'm voting on, and and that particular expense was was hidden under a broad category of expenses over 30,000. It wasn't its own resolution like it was the previous time it came up. It was it was kind of hidden in there. And um, and so I'm not gonna vote on something if I don't know the details and really understand what we're paying for. And and that was Bradley's uh contention as well. He's like, You're not giving me enough information to be able to say yes on this.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

That's one of the key, that's one of the chief things that can really gum up the works, is that those that are really paying attention. Um, because everyone else is like, sure, yeah, let's let's keep it moving along, because one of the chief complaints many people get is the uh oftentimes will offer is the inefficiency of government. And you say, Well, okay, fine, you want to complain about the inefficiency of it at the same time, though, you also like a very transparent process, which by nature is going to slow things down and so that everyone has an opportunity to examine what they're looking at. Um, it those are those are two things that you have to balance. Like you want transparency, it takes longer to make sure that all this money is being spent well. Because um uh I'm sensitive to you know, making sure our I'm we saw everything that police are getting that that's wonderful in terms of all their tools. Uh do our firefighters do they have a competitive compensation package? And are they what is their what is are they equipped and are we able to incentivize a next young next generation of young men to take on that to take on this calling that they have? And so these those are the kind of things I'm like, if we say no, or this is our cap, why did it's because someone has you know purchased the resolute desk for for their office that when the previous one would have been adequate? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

I would like to see how much the new conference room table and the new city hall costs, because we couldn't see that number. Oh, because but I will be willing to bet it's pretty close to six figures. If I had a guess, haven't seen the number, I could be totally wrong. But yes, I mean, and so there is it does it slow things down? Sure. Right. Is that a good thing? Yes. If you do care about um, if you care about transparency, if you care about fiscal accountability, uh I had a lot of people who, when I ran uh last summer, they said, we don't want just a yes man. That's not what the public wants, I don't believe. They want someone who's willing to stand up and say, I'm just gonna ask some questions. It's not bad. Right. But you know, if you people just go along, go along, and I I've seen this in the military. I I've worked for a lot of general officers over my career, some of the best Americans um that we have in this country, and they were some tough folks. I mean, they would ask some hard questions, and it makes the process better. It makes it makes the staff better, it makes the product, the end result better by asking hard questions. And I think we have too many people who oh, hard questions make me uncomfortable, you know? And so then now you're the devil because you're asking hard questions when really it's like the end product is better. Everyone will be better for it if we ask some hard questions. So I think we just have a bunch of good folks in this town, whether they're elected officials or staff, but do they have really a lot of world leadership experience? Do they really understand hard process? Do they really understand leadership and what it takes to be efficient and be successful? And I'm not saying we don't have successful people, but I would I'd be I'd be remiss if I didn't say that we have some folks who maybe just they want the easy way rather than the right way.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Well, I you talked about the kind of the machine earlier. You know, what we the establishment, it's not just a term that applies to national politics. It's gonna be it's a human nature problem that affects any political entity. And that it creates that machine, whether it's you know local municipal government or you know anything on the national schedule, on the national scale, that machine that kind of just wants to keep itself going. And uh those that have to step in and say, no, no, no, no, we you do want the machine to operate, but it's not just about doing things right, uh, doing it's also about doing right things. Sure. And so now you start asking uh genuine tough questions, probing questions, things that require a little bit more transparency, a little bit more accountability. And and I don't know if you're like me, but I'm not internally constituted to be the natural contrarian. I'm not, no. But uh because you're willing to you you don't see conflict, but because you're willing to take that on just to get clarity, just for the right thing to occur, the accusation of desiring conflict might come up. Right. I don't know that I've ever gotten uh immune to that. I don't, you know, I still get annoyed, like, no, I don't desire the conflict. It's just this has to be pursued. It's necessary that we this we look at this you know it sufficiently. And I personal story, I was at the University of Houston. I taught there for several years as part of their religious studies program. And they were selecting at one point, selecting a new program chair for the religious studies program. The previous um program director was retiring. I took over a bunch of his classes, and they needed to select a new uh, they needed to find new candidates who could who could uh replace him for program director for this religious studies for the University of Houston. It was all under their uh comparative cultural studies department. Anyway, I was the most junior person sitting on the panel. Everyone else is doctor this, doctor this, doctor this, and I'm here both. I have a master's degree, but I'm also a graduate student working on my second master's in anthropology. The most junior person there, and I'd been brought on as kind of a courtesy, just to kind of like, okay, you'll have a vote, but really you're watching how the process unfolds. Right. So we go through all these different candidates, and and each person gives the resume, and they had to go through multiple resumes, and it came down to two candidates. One was uh his scholarship, he was from Germany, and he had scholarship of as as in as an Old Testament um specialist. And then the other one had a different theological background. And it was kind of an avant-garde, edgy person who likes to study Nietzsche's death of God concept as it relates to teaching religion. And so all these, you know, anthropology tends to be the department that tends to be the most woke in a st in a university. Sure. Anyway, unless it unless it's a subject that ends with the word studies. But yeah, but anthropology tends to be the most, it's full of godless atheists, you know, atheistic Marxists. And so it was always kind of a fun arena to be in, uh being kind of fish out of water that way. But nevertheless, they all loved the guy, the death of a death of God guy. He's like, oh, he's edgy, he's sexy, he's right there on the cutting edge. And they all voted, and they came down to these two candidates, they were going to offer the position to one or the other. And I don't remember exactly how many were on the panel, but nevertheless, they all came around and all of them said, okay, we like this guy, this candidate A. And I said, I, you know, the previous director, the previous program director has built a lot of goodwill in the community with religious uh people in the community, interfaith dialogue with various different groups, many groups that I don't even agree with, but still, though, he was able to promote that because his background somewhat honored their traditions in a sense, didn't declare them all to be misguided idiots. And so I'm I'm gonna go with Canada B. You were voting on voting on this. And they said, Well, you're the only one, you're the most junior guy. I said, I know, I know, but I'm willing to be the minority view on this. Yeah. And they're like, okay, but you're outvoted, you understand that. I said, I understand. And and and I understand that my vote, I'm just like, I'm I'm at the I'm not quite at the grown-up table at Thanksgiving anyway, but I'm willing to be the minority view. Anyway, so as they all they offer the position to candidate A, and uh at the last minute, he tries to change the deal by with different compensation, and the negotiations basically fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

And the job is offered to candidate B, who comes as now the new program director, with the knowledge that I was the only one in that department that voted for him. And it was it was really kind of fun being able to get we were able to have a special relationship that way.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah, I mean, obviously you had a friend at that point, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Um But it was uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Um uh you I like people.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

I do too. I mean, I'm I'm a very social person. I mean, I I don't I don't uh drink or go out drink socially or do things like that. But I mean I do I do love to go out and party and have fun with people and go to events, and I mean I I love to joke around. I mean, I my wife tells me I joke around too much. I mean, I I do want to be friendly um and and get along with everybody. Right. And I don't I don't like conflict. Um, you know, in my job as a business person, um, I've had the you know unfortunate circumstance where I've had to fire a lot of people, and I don't like it. Yeah, I mean, I don't. Um, so conflict is not something that I like. Um, I think in politics it comes down to it's a necessary evil. You're gonna have those. So, you know, don't get into politics if you're not gonna be willing to stand up, because the tide to push you to just go with the flows is very strong, and swimming against that tide is is very challenging.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

And and while no one seriously would compare this to your your combat and military experience, nevertheless, there are probably surprising ways in in they're similar in this in this respect, that there are probably surprising ways in which the virtue of fortitude has proven necessary in ways you didn't predict. Oh, of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

You know, I mean, and and part of that is having a tight team. And my when I say that, you know, my wife and my children, um, you know, there are there are folks that, you know, they talk, and it's it's not easy for family to hear people talk bad about, you know, dad. Uh, and I think people lose sight of that. I mean, we have families, you know, and and so is talking with my team and my wife, my kids, saying, hey, you know, this is what's going on, you know, everything's gonna be fine, but we're gonna probably you're gonna hear some things, people are a little bit unhappy with me for this reason, but I nothing I have said or done has been uh whimsical. There's been rationale, there's been analysis, and and there's been you know talking to our constituents. So I'm very comfortable with everything that I've done. Even and being the minority person, sometimes I I hate when, you know, the I told you so's, but I promise there's gonna be plenty of I told you so moments um on on these votes I've had. And there's gonna be a lot of things where when when all is said and done, I I don't think the commission will have the will to go against the people on a lot of things. Right, right, right. Uh, and so we'll we'll see. Time will tell. I mean, we're gonna most likely raise garbage rates in the city of Dothan coming up.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Um, you know, when I talk when you mentioned earlier about uh electric, well, you know, was the cost of this being so much and is there a reason for that? Well, garbage, we have a we have a big issue. We're losing five, six million dollars a year right now on our garbage service. Um, and and that is uh difficult. We have the best garbage service of any place I've lived anywhere in the world. I mean, when you look at what they pick up, you know, I mean, but that's expensive. And we've only been charging $14.75 for over a decade, right? You know, so when you think about that, it probably wasn't even um making money a decade ago. Uh and it's only gotten worse with inflation, other things. So um, you know, we're gonna see some hard, hard votes. There's some things that we're probably gonna have to vote to raise some of the fees on because you know, we have to be fiscally responsible. And that's where it takes courage to tell your constituency too. It's like, I'm sorry, this is what we have to do. But I think they are more receptive and they they um they appreciate it when we push back against things where we can, right? You know, like furniture or when it comes other things, like we're gonna push back where we can, but I think that I have more trust with them because when I do say I'm behind this and this is a reason why, like, okay, well, he pushes back on this on the nonsense. So we know this must be real. So I think it actually gives us more credibility when we're willing to speak up um and we're willing to challenge just, you know, the the and do the hard right thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

So I think that's where a lot of respect winds up coming back to the person who you had to be you know, run contrary to others, and you like that respect comes back to you in that sense because especially if you're willing to be honest and say, listen, I oppose the rate hike here, you know, in A, because it just wasn't necessary. But in in B, it is. And then, and here's why. And you know, and you can make that argument to people. I think they feel respected in that regard, and I think that that gets reciprocated.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Yeah, and I've had some constituents uh who've reached out to me and they're like, okay, what you said on this makes sense, you know. So a lot of people they don't want to ever see anything go up. And I mean, that's just not the world that we live in. I mean, the the federal government tries to keep inflation at 2% per year, and we've had some years where it was way higher than 2%. So by nature, things are always going to get more expensive. That's why Social Security gives you a cost of living allowance every year because they know everything gets more expensive. Um, so to say net things will never go up is just is not reality. Right um, but I think we can push back in certain areas, try to keep our costs as low as we can where it's fiscally responsible to do that. And like you said, going against the grain sometimes is tough, but I do think people appreciate it, they respect you for it. And every vote, every time I've gone against something, I mean, I'm not doing it just to cause a fight. Uh but uh but I do sleep well at night knowing that I'm trying to do the right things and and I'm not gonna be in politics forever. Uh I I don't really know how long, you know, if I'll do another term or for all or if I'll run for something else. But um, I do know that you know, every vote that I take every vote seriously, and every vote, I you know, I feel like I can stand behind. So even if I'm the only person voting that way.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Well, and that that that resolve for fortitude and transparency and respect, that's gonna constantly be tested. And I mean, so uh wanted to celebrate the fact that you know you're again willing to be that minority view. Um that's that's a big challenge. I know that that's the case. And so appreciate you coming in to talk to me. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Well, and I appreciate uh what obviously what you do for our community. Um, you know, you were always present at the meetings, um, or at least I think I don't know if I've missed you at any of them, but uh, I mean, it is, I think people need to get involved, they need to see it, be a part of it. I went to a lot of commission meetings before I ever ran for you know commissioner. Um, and so I do think that is good to be out there and be involved. And uh so I thank you for being out there, being present, being involved, because I think I wish more people would do it. And I think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

Well, if if nothing else, I I learned this years ago uh my when I just had become first become a uh chaplain for a fire department, and that something that seminary never taught me. I always say that my first department was the best seminary class I ever had, because it the seminary taught me a lot of things to do and believe to believe in do. But ministry as a minister really fell more on what you are, and so I found that calling wasn't it was yes, it was called to do, but it was more so called to be. And that being, what you embody, what you do in terms of just your presence in a thing, has a great effect. And I remember specifically I was with uh some firefighters. We had just come gotten off a uh house fire, and they we got back to the station, they're taking their gear off, and everyone's exhausted. And they said, Um, boy, I'm sure I was sure glad God was with us on that call. And I went, Okay, now you got my curiosity up. What do you what makes you think that you that God was with you, particularly on that call? And he says, Well, there you were, walking around, changing air bottles and bringing us water. I'm like, oh, okay, so this is how you interpret my presence. Right. That was scary because I didn't even think of myself that way. That you're embodying someone's reminder. You're not God, but you're there in some sort of sacramental way, embodying someone's reminder that God's with you on the call. And that gave me a passion for being with firefighters when whenever they could. I wanted to be very much an embedded fire um fire chaplain. I had a shirt made up, you know, John 1:14 says, and there's then the word became flesh and rode the truck with us. Because whenever I could, you just wanted to be a living embodiment of reminding, oh, God's in this process. And here's the sky walking around reminding us all of that. Right. That's all you are, is you're walking around as a sign going, you know, you this is there isn't a process where God kind of goes, hey, handle your business. I'll come, I'll see you in a minute. Um, he's always present in all that. And what I learned is that to the extent that I could do that with police officers, I love being around, you know, um uh police police officers have already gotten a chance to do a ride along with Doth and PD. Oh, yeah, they're great. Uh it was fantastic. And one of the things that if I'm able to be, I go to the city commission. I was at this, I was at um I was at the county commission meeting on Monday, and the person they had slated to give their own vocation then wasn't there for some reason. And so um Chairman Shoop was able to go, hey father, can you yeah, front and center? I'm like, Yes, sir. And so, but you're able to be just like this just reminder where maybe someone's going, oh, that's right, yeah, okay, God's watching this. Not I'm not that, but they're it's a reminder. Sacramentally, you show up and you're just like a reminder. Someone goes, Okay, God's watching this entire process, which requires fortitude, integrity, transparency, uh, honesty, right? And you know, that uh that when when someone says, I am for X, they actually for are for that thing and not secretly for Y, you know, but they're they're telling you one thing and meaning another. And uh that's I imagine I mean all of us, all of us are many of us are we watch like national politics. And I tend to when I tend to group uh politicians into two groups, the gamers will appreciate this because I refer to them as independent players and MPC, non-pro non-playable characters because they're just in a loop, right? They're in a set loop of the responses that they just do, and then the independent player actually might stop and talk to you and you know with a set of unprogrammed responses. And so when you encounter enough of that, you're like, how many independent players are actually in part of this uh game? You know, are there any of them here that are thinking for themselves with with conscience, with conviction, with uh you know, with families to whom they have to go home and look square in the eye, and and friendships that they have to you know honestly disagree with and say, brother, love you, but I see this in a different way than you do.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 57:26

And with the respect enough to actually have that honest conversation. And it seems like that sets the bar pretty low, but it's not. That's almost a that's almost a pie in the sky dream at this point, and see sometimes it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

It is, and I would even say that local politics is harder than national politics because when you think about on the local level, almost everything that we do affects someone like in their home.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Right. When you talk about business license fees that are being discussed or electric rate fees or garbage, I mean, how many things that are really done on the national level affect you at your house? Exactly. You know, very few things. So it's in a lot of ways, I think it's harder. Um, it's more personal. I think that's maybe why people just get so petty uh and so nasty about these things, because they they take the things so personally. Um, and and I think our culture has changed a lot. Um, you know, it's people used to be able to respectfully agree to disagree. I mean, well, now that people just want to burn you down. You know, it's like it's either my way, it's we're so polarized in in our thinking. Um, and so people, if you if you disagree, they really just they get nasty and like there's no room for disagreement. I think that's a challenge. I think you know, and not talk political parties, but you have some parties that will be like, hey, we allow people to disagree, and then you have some, like, if it's you're not, if it's not our way, it's like you're the devil, and we're gonna do everything we can to destroy your life.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Um, and so you limit that dueling has gone out of style. It seems like you had more a more polite sense of disagreements because like a way of disagreeing back when the person goes, Do I disagree that much? No, not so not really.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Well, I mean, we have challenges in our community when it comes to uh we talk about dueling. I mean, we got gun battles, you know, in the streets and mall and everything else, uh, you know, and we have people who can't, I think it's a classic example. So you got the Facebook trolls who are out there just doing their thing, and then you got the people who have been taught, well, I'm just gonna get a gun and and do that. And and both really aren't a whole lot different. I mean, they obviously they are in some ways, in a lot of ways, but at the end of the day, it's like, well, rather than be able to talk things out and have a civil discourse, I mean, they go to an extreme, you know.

SPEAKER_03 59:37

So social media has really contributed to the decivilization, decivilizing of many, because I mean, there people will tweet things and they'll get on, like you said, the the ghost Facebook accounts, they'll say things online all day long that they know better than to say to a man's face. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

And we have a lot of outside influence too. Um, there's a lot of folks that don't even live inside these city limits who are getting on there and they are trying to influence what happens in our city. I think people lose sight of that too. You know, these ghost accounts are not always just local city residents who are just too afraid to speak out of their own, you know, accord. So we have outside influence too. So, I mean, all these things are factors. Um, but you know, we do have to, you know, you have to have that courage, you have to have the willingness to stand up. And I do think at the end of the day, you know, let the facts speak for themselves. Um, usually people will get you know nasty and and go to an extreme when they've lost an argument or they can't really back it up with facts. And that was something I thought that Charlie Kirk was so great about. Um, you know, when when you think about he was willing to have a conversation with anybody. Um, and let's let's talk facts. And and I think that's what we need more of. We need anyone to be able to talk, we need to be able to talk facts. And it's okay if we disagree on certain things, but I hope I hope we'll see more dialogue. I hope we'll see more um, you know, maybe more commissioners be willing to speak up and to have that discussion. Um again, there's been very few votes where I've been the only one who has felt a certain way. So um, you know, only a couple times did uh was I the only vote, and I guarantee those votes are gonna haunt some of those commissioners for a long time. Um, because um, you know, wanting to raise electric rates when we're making $20 million a year on our electric service doesn't play well in politics or in policy. Right. Uh and so at the end of the day, we got to do what's best for our people. And I'm I'm glad to have the opportunity. And one last thing I want to do say before um I know we're getting close on time. Um, you know, my walk with the Lord is tested every day, um, as with many. And, you know, but I do feel like, you know, I pray a lot about our decisions. I pray a lot about um, and I've talked to our pastor many times about, you know, certain things. I want to make sure that I'm I'm doing this not for me, not for my own flesh, not for my own personal agenda, but really um, you know, I don't consider myself um a politician as much as I consider myself a public servant in this capacity. And so I do pray for wisdom and guidance, and I appreciate the prayers. Many people have prayed for our wisdom and guidance, and I take that very seriously, and I'm very grateful for that because um, you know, I'm not doing this for my own selfish ambitions um by any means. I'm doing this just to serve our community as as long as the Lord is willing, I will do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

It's a very hard thing to separate. Um uh I and I had a another, I had a another candidate who was able willing to come and talk to me. He was running for um uh uh a post here in um in the area. And um, you know, I had at that time, and I don't want to again go into doing down too much of a rabbit trail, but at the time he said, uh, well, he's he said exactly the same thing. You know, he doesn't consider himself a politician, he's more of a public servant. And I said, and I said, Well, that's very laudable. Um, how many politicians do you know who would who would say otherwise? I mean, you don't how many politicians do you know will say, you know what? I'm a run-in-the-mail politician that will sell his mom for the vote that he wants on his favorite thing? Like they won't, no one, everyone says they're a public servant. So I in this regard, I guess some of my cynicism crops up. Sure. Proofs in the pudding, though, right? Exactly. So what we do is we go, uh let's let's let's let the work speak for itself. That's right. And in this case, what what spoke to me was okay, I'm watching someone who, again, not constituted as a contrarian, but willing to be the minority view from time to time, which suggested which suggested possibly some uncommon fortitude, which I don't see in abundance. It was refreshing. Yeah. Even if I disagree with you on something, sure. I'm not even sure that I did, but I didn't with the road die thing, I don't have enough data. But I mean, but in that case, if if even if I went, okay, still I respected that there is this principled position on that and willingness to go, no, I that now you've that's a data point, you put enough of those together. Now you can start kind of looking at longitudinally that someone is okay, this public servant versus politician label. I can I guess that's something that can be ascribed by others more faithfully now.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

I think the clear, the clearest um example of politician versus a public servant is who's willing to give the hard truth. Right. Right. Because I see too many people will go and change their message and tailor their message depending upon who they're talking to, and they will never take a hard stand on anything. They will truly just every like they will never say anything that's um that is challenging. Yeah, right. And I think that's a politician. I mean, it's someone who they're always gonna try to say the right thing, they're always who am I talking to today? Okay, well, I'm gonna, you know, so um rather than speaking their convictions and and speaking truth to what is is best for the community based on the facts. And I don't want to keep coming back to the road diet, but you brought it up last time.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

But you know, when when people talk about I thought it was a good example, it was a great example. When people talk about like the data, and some people are like, well, there's less trucks through downtown right now because the road diet. Yeah, I'm like, well, yeah, there are fewer trucks downtown right now. Maybe it's because we have these two big electronic signs on the west side and east side that say downtown congestion, use the circle. Maybe that's why. Right. Maybe it has nothing to do with the actual traffic pattern downtown, but these two huge electronic signs that we put out there for a month that that directed trucks to go around the circle, which by the way, for some reason we took them out now. So it's like, hmm, things that we as the city can do. So it is congested. Right. It's like, hmm, okay. So, you know, you gotta try to look at all the facts. And that's the the challenging part, I think, in today's um, today's world is the media. There used to be a lot more media presence. You can actually have, I think, more information get out in full details with an honest media. And today, I mean, we don't have the doathan eagle, we don't have a lot of ways. And so, you know, why do I talk to the media? Almost every time they ask me for a quote, I don't just run to them. Uh almost all cases, they're asking me, hey, what do you think about this? And I'm gonna respond because that's our job to get that out to the people. Um, but it's hard to communicate to everybody because elderly folks aren't always out on Facebook. Right, right, right. You know, and if if we're not watching, you know, these certain types of media, the newspapers aren't going around like they used to go around. And so connecting with your constituency is harder today, I believe, than what it might have used to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Well, it's a very important but delicate skill. Um, my I remember my dad, my father uh worked in California. Uh he was an engineer, but he worked his his company worked in co conjunction with the California government on solving water distribution problems. And I asked him what was the most difficult part of the job. And he said, the art of the soundbite. That's tough, no doubt. And he said, I was like, well, what is a soundbite? It's the irreducible mess, it's the irreducible sentence about your message that that fully conveys what you mean with but can't be cut up to sound like you something you don't mean.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

No, very true.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

I I don't even know how he's able to do that. I myself have been burned many times because I was talking to a reporter thinking I was a conversation. No, I wasn't. I was giving them all all sorts of different contrary sound bites that could be, you know, that could be edited in different ways. Like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

I haven't I haven't been tricked by any of reporters here in Dothan. Um most all the you know, WTVY, WDHN, you know, all the folks we've we've talked to and dealt with have been pretty honest. But I will tell you, it is tough when you get asked 10 questions, right? And you feel like you gave some really solid answers to nine of the ten, but somehow that tenth one ends up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

So one where you're pictures or whatever. That's not that's the one that's gonna make the cut.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

It's like really like I wish you would have gone with this, you know. And so does the news have a narrative? Uh sometimes. Do they try to get clicks? Yeah, sometimes. But I feel like they've done a pretty good job trying to give both sides of the arguments. But that is that is a very challenging thing, is you know, how you can try to stay on message and not get have people distracted by the noise of what you say. And and I do support, you know, we have like I said, great staff, great leadership overall. We have just a great team of people, great police, great fire. Um, our city should be very proud of a lot of things we have going on. And in my comments in the commission meeting yesterday, at the two days ago, you know, at the beginning, it's like we have a lot of things to have hope for. We have a lot of things going well for us, you know, and we have we have some challenges, no doubt. Um, but try to stay positive, try to try to be factual, and try to keep moving forward is what I think we need to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:53

Well, thank you very much. It's encouraging to talk to an independent player, not an NPC. Really, thank you very much for coming to talk to me. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you, sir.