The EthnoMed Podcast

Provider Pulse Ep. 15: Dr. Ethan Hua on Mentorship, Medicine, and the Importance of Narrative

• Dr. Duncan Reid, MD @ EthnoMed.org • Season 1 • Episode 15

Share episode

Send us a text

In this episode ofProvider Pulse, Dr. Duncan Reid sits down with Dr. Ethan Hua, faculty in Interventional Radiology at the University of Washington School of Medicine.

Dr. Hua shares his journey from growing up as the child of Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants in Southern California to finding his way into medicine — a path that included an unexpected pivot from marine biology, a difficult first round of medical school applications, and eventually discovering interventional radiology during a chance two-week elective in medical school.

Together, they explore:

  • The genesis of the Provider Pulse podcast and why telling the “middle stories” matters
  • The role of mentorship and why having a mentor can make the difference between success and failure
  • The narrative arc required to succeed in medicine — and how to make it authentic
  • The importance of trusting your gut in career decisions
  • How Dr. Hua’s immigrant identity shapes the way he cares for patients and advocates for equity

This conversation is perfect for pre-med students, trainees, and anyone curious about the human stories behind medical careers.

Here are some links to resources which were mentioned during today's episode:

Thinking Too Much: Introspection Can Reduce the Quality of Preferences and Decisions by Wilson & Schooler (1991). Their experiments suggest that being asked to rationalize a decision can disrupt the natural evaluative process. So explaining a decision can interfere with your initial "gut" reaction.

You can download the paper here: https://bear.warrington.ufl.edu/brenner/mar7588/Papers/wilson-schooler-jpsp-1991.pdf

You can also listen to Malcom Gladwell discuss the implications of these studies as a guest on the Radiolab podcast episode from 19 August 2010: Is Free Will Really Free?

You can listen to this episode here: https://radiolab.org/podcast/91644-is-free-will-really-free

The Science of Storytelling: Why Stories Make Us Human and How to Tell Them Better by Will Storr is a fascinating read and directly applicable to understanding how to craft your narrative story for school and job interviews and beyond.

Here is a link to the Goodreads page:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43183121-the-science-of-storytelling


Visit EthnoMed.org for additional resources. Follow us on YouTube and Instagram @EthnoMedUW

Ethan Hua 08_14_2025

Ethan:  [00:00:00] I think the reason why folks have this sanitized narrativeis that to get through the gauntlet of undergrad and medical school and residency, you have to come up with that story yourself and tell it to yourself, to succeed, 

Because. everyone needs the 30 second elevator pitch when you're doing med school interviews, residency interviews, job interviews. No one wants to hear this huge, tumultuous story that you have. You need to streamline and sanitize it, and make it palatable to someone who's gonna accept you into medical school or accept you in a residency.

And like for me, I just wasn't interviewing properly and I didn't tie my story into a cohesive story. Like it was a stereotypical, like messy life.

Duncan: Welcome to the EthnoMed Podcast, a community voice in the clinic. I'm Dr. Duncan Reid, physician at Harborview Medical Center's International Medicine Clinic and Medical Director of EthnoMed. 

We continue our provider Pulse interview series where we elevate diverse voices from across healthcare [00:01:00] fields to hear the paths people took to their current roles and how their life experiences shape the care they provide. Today we sit down with Dr. Ethan Hua, faculty physician in interventional radiology at the University of Washington School of Medicine.

In this episode, we explore the origin story of the EthnoMed podcast and provider Pulse series, the nuanced and rarely straightforward decision to pursue medicine as a career, and the powerful role that narrative plays in shaping professional success.

Dr. Ethan Hu also reflects on how his immigrant identity influences the way he connects with and cares for his patients. Whether you're an undergraduate contemplating a future in medicine, a healthcare professional seeking inspiration, or simply curious about the human stories behind the white coat, this conversation offers insight, honesty, and encouragement.

Appreciate you coming all the way over here post-call.

Ethan: Oh, no problem. Happy to.

Duncan: Can you introduce yourself?

Ethan: My name's Ethan Hua. I'm a interventional radiology faculty here at University of Washington, went to undergrad at UC San Diego, and [00:02:00] I did a master's there as well. And did my residency at University of Washington Diagnostic and Interventional Radiology.

Duncan: So the idea behind doing this podcast was working with undergraduates from the Minority Association of Pre-Medical Students while they were shadowing me in the International Medicine Clinic.

Ethan: Mm-hmm.

Duncan: And then I asked them, I was like, well, where do you learn about medicine? Do you know where? Mm-hmm. Reddit. And they told me, there's two different stories on Reddit. There's like one where someone did everything right.

They're brilliant. They got into Harvard and they're bragging about it. And there's like a sob story where everyone did everything right and then didn't get in and are miserable and can't do it. And what they said was that there wasn't any middle story. There wasn't a story about people that looked like them, that represented them, where people, maybe it wasn't particularly easy but then ended up somewhere and they said that was a missing story. 

 So the idea behind this was just that you're talking to some kid or a younger version of yourself and you're like, what was your path and what were you interested in? Yeah. [00:03:00] Does that sound reasonable?

Ethan: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it sounds reasonable. it's funny, the Reddit thing though, it's like, most internet forums, it just captures the extremes, right? It captures the person who's gonna be the loudest of their success and the loudest of their failure. And the folks in the middle are, you know, someone like me who's sort of struggled.

Not really struggled, but had to find the path to medicine. We're busy doing that really, and not really like talking about it on Reddit. So yeah, I think it's really valuable to have these conversations and have podcasts like this, to send an example for these folks that, you know, this is very possible.

and it's really just about kind of raising awareness that is, realistic, you know, and not in this fake internet world of like the extreme success, the extreme failure, but really the practical middle ground.

Duncan: And then I felt the other thing too is if someone's shadowing you or maybe just in medicine in general, you, tell this very sanitized story, you know what your script is and you have this story arc that you tell everyone else. And in some senses it's very artificial. Right. [00:04:00] And I feel like it doesn't give room for the self-doubt.

It doesn't give room for the failure or struggles. Yeah. And it's kind of this self-serving narrative. Yeah. And then as a guide for a young person, it's not that helpful. Yeah. 'cause they see Ethan Hua, who is an interventional radiologist and seems like this kind of untouchable figure and they don't see, you know, the human side of it.

So.

Ethan: yeah. Well that's, well that's the key piece I think, and I think the reason why folks have this sanitized narrative that they have and that they tell students when they shadow them is that to succeed in medicine or to get through the gauntlet of undergrad and medical school and residency, you have to come up with that story yourself and tell it to yourself, to succeed, right?

Because. everyone needs the 30 second elevator pitch when you're doing med school interviews, residency interviews, job interviews. No one wants to hear this huge, tumultuous story that you have. You need to streamline and sanitize [00:05:00] it, and make it palatable to someone who's gonna accept you into medical school or accept you in a residency.

And you just kind of, you keep telling yourself that enough that, that's what you keep. And like for me, my own personal story, so I had to apply to medical school twice. The first time I got very good interviews, when I went for an interview, I just wasn't accepted to any school.

So the second time around, I, you know, I talked to my mentors and I said, what do you think happened here? And no one really had a good explanation for me. And there was one, kind of peripheral mentor that I had that's like, it seems like you got these good applications and you had these good schools interview you but after the interview part, things kind of broke down.

So let's do a mock interview. So I did a mock interview with him, and then I think he identified these key pieces like one, I just wasn't interviewing properly and kind of what I was alluding to. I didn't tie my story into a cohesive story. Like it was a stereotypical, like messy life.

You know, my folks came here as refugees. I'm the first person to really finish high school. My parents were in high school. I'm a Vietnamese immigrant. I'm actually part Vietnamese, Chinese, but they were living in [00:06:00] Vietnam. They never finished high school. I'm the first to finish high school, finish college, go on to medical school.

And that's kind of how I told my story. I was like, I kind of bounced around like this and thought about medicine, but I really wasn't like super passionate about it, you know, and then I, didn't know what to do, so I did a master's. So after I finished my bachelor's at UC San Diego, I did a master's in biology.

And this is how I told the interviewer this. I was like, didn't know what to do and I just did a master's 'cause I had no idea, about what to do with my life. And then eventually I kind of came round to medicine and, realized how important it is and how impactful it's in other people's lives.

But I kind of told it in this really haphazard way where I didn't have any forethought and, they don't want to hear that. You know, I think that's what shot me down in that first set of interviews, so my mentor said like, even though it's not true, you gotta come up with an arc to tie everything together and sell it that way.

And I think that is probably a common problem for folks who come from backgrounds who are traditionally unrepresented medicine, who don't have good mentors in, academia or who are [00:07:00] very successful in the corporate ladder to kind of teach 'em these things.

And it's not just for medicine, right? It's like succeeding in any field to move far in any field.

Duncan: Is to have this narrative arc for yourself.

Ethan: Yeah, at least to have a narrative arc but to, identify key people, we're gonna help you to streamline an arc to help you succeed in whatever field you want to go to.

Like I said, like I'm, right now, I'm just rambling, But, um, when you are going, sitting down to convince someone hey, gimme this job, or let me go to medical school, lemme go to residency. You gotta do it in a succinct, rational way. In a minute and you really have to develop that and have someone tell you that.

And I think no one told me that until I failed at it. And I got lucky enough that I got a second chance.

Duncan: And what was the pitch? What was, what was your refined,

Ethan: my,

Duncan: yeah, what's your refined story?

Ethan: My refined story. You know, it's not, it's nothing magical, something along the lines that I've always been interested in biology, the human body. And honestly, I wanted to be a marine biologist for a long time. I went to UC San Diego. I worked in a fish biology lab, and I realized that, [00:08:00] I didn't really want to be the person developing, a drug or tool to use in medicine.

Like I wanted to use that thing. And that's what I realized towards the end of undergrad and then when I was doing my masters and I was again developing these drugs and doing some stem cell biology work to improve the human condition that way. I really wanted to be like using them, not really developing them.

So I kind of used that to pivot. And I joined actually another lab that used stem cell biology in a more clinical realm. And so I was actually collecting the stem cells doing skin biopsies and collecting cells that would eventually turn into stem cells from patients.

 And that kind of springboarded me into the medical world. And then radiology is a whole other different thing. Yeah.

Duncan: Can you tell us about this family history?

Ethan: So my grandparents, Chinese, in Canton, Southern China, escaping communism. In 1949 fled to, to Vietnam. My mom is, Chinese, my dad is Vietnamese. I end up being half Vietnamese, half Chinese. Those two fleeing communism, after the Vietnam War immigrated to Southern California. And so me and my [00:09:00] sister were born in Southern California 

Duncan: And what did your parents do for work?

Ethan: My mom, she essentially kept a little shop. My grandparents had a shop in Da Nang, Vietnam and she just sold coffee beans. I don't know what my dad did. Every time I hear stories about my dad during that time, he is always like goofing off somewhere, like riding a motorcycle around or something.

And then when they immigrated here, my dad actually worked at Circuit City. Remember Circuit City. He sold speakers and then when the real estate boom, kind of got big he worked on getting his real estate license and he's, worked as a real estate agent for a bit. He's since passed away.

 My mom ended up working in just sort of some clerical work when she got here. She's retired now.

Duncan: How old were they when they moved here?

Ethan: That's a good question. I never really know the true age of my parents. Every time I asked my mom, she was always making something up. She's like, well, my, you know, my documents say this, but I'm really this.

And every time I asked her, it's something different. So I'm gonna say they came here in 1980. They're probably like late twenties.

Duncan: And were they [00:10:00] refugees?

Ethan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They came here, as refugees. They initially actually came to San Francisco, California. 'cause all my extended family ended up there. And my dad got a job actually working in a factory in Orange County, California.

So he moved down at that point and then ended up, Learning English, and he was kind of always into stereo equipment you know, even as a kid he was always like, listening to the Beatles in the sixties and, trying to piece together some type of high fidelity audio system.

So it was actually like a very natural fit for him to work at Circuit City. 

Duncan: So how was growing up? Where did you grow up?

Ethan: Yeah, we grew up in Tustin, California. that is like 10 minutes from Disneyland. I think my mom and I think a lot of, at least within my network, a lot of folks who came from immigrant backgrounds or were refugees a lot, at least in the Asian culture There's a lot of effort to become assimilated into America. So my mom did a lot of things to make me American.

She put me in baseball, America's pastime. So I played baseball for five, six years. She, [00:11:00] enrolled me in Boy Scouts. I was like a boy scout until I actually got kicked outta Boy Scouts because my mom, I don't think she didn't really know what Boy Scouts was, but she was like, this is what American boys do, so you should be a Boy Scout.

And then there's like a camping quota. So I had to go to two camp things, I don't know, every month or two. And she was terrified of that. So she wouldn't let me go. But I'm like, this is the whole idea of being a Boy Scout. So I actually didn't meet that quota and I got kicked outta Boy Scouts. There's a kind of a lot of that, you know, a lot of tug and pull of trying to maintain your identity as someone who's Chinese Vietnamese, but also trying to be a part of this culture that they don't really understand, right? Like the folks who come over here, they don't like, they don't really understand what the American culture is like. And so I find that it was a little, I'm sure a lot of people share this story. it is really challenging to have your foot, in each room, at any given time.

And really not having a lot of guidance in that way. 'cause, you know, my parents didn't really speak English that well. They didn't know how to guide me to succeed, [00:12:00] in America. and so I think that was something that was really missing.

Duncan: What language did you speak at home?

Ethan: I speak predominantly Chinese. My parents both speak Chinese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, French, and English. I, I'm a deadbeat in that way. I can only speak Cantonese, poorly, and English. They just did it. I think they did it by design, like they taught us Cantonese. And anytime the conversation got good as a kid, it would switch to Vietnamese, like mid-sentence, you know, it'd get really good and then you wouldn't understand anymore.

Duncan: So you're even speaking a different language at home. How was school? Were there other people that looked like you in school or did you feel that you were different? Even like elementary school?

Ethan: Yeah, that's a good question. We got lucky growing up in Orange County, California, there's a little Saigon, Westminster and Garden Grove. And so there were folks that looked like us, that had this kind of the same background, the same culture as us, so we didn't feel so isolated. At least we had that type of cultural support when we grew up. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but moving up what people perceive as [00:13:00] success in America. We didn't, I don't think we really had that guidance, growing up. And so I think that's a piece that, can be incorporated earlier if you're coming from a immigrant family refugees.

Duncan: How were you as a student?

Ethan: I was lucky enough to be a good student. I think part of it was my mom was sort of traditional tiger mom, and I remember very clearly from like first grade, she was like, you need to crush school.

You need to get straight A's right now or else you're not gonna go to a good middle school. And not go to a good high school and you will never go to college. And I remember being like a terrified first grader. It's, it really, I think about this a lot now 'cause now I'm a dad and I have a 4-year-old and we're starting to think about what's gonna be the best education system for him. Which I don't know the answer to, but, uh, I, I think I was lucky that my mom really drilled in the importance of excelling in academics. And I think that's obviously the foundation to all of this, right? You gotta really exceed in that, in that basic level first.

Duncan: How about [00:14:00] socially?

Ethan: Yeah, socially, I think I found what stands out growing up is high school really. I think I found my own ragtag, like refugee group in a way. You know, growing up, going through elementary school and middle school, I never really felt like I had a group that I belonged to.

 My mom put me in Chinese school, you know, every Sunday, and I hated that. And I never really got along with the kids there. And then when I went to high school, I actually moved from Tustin to Irvine. They're adjacent cities, Irvine's, extremely affluent, extremely Asian compared to Tustin.

It's actually more Latino. And I just, you know, I kind of stumbled into this group of misfits in a way. So I hung out with this group my good friends. They were, one was from Bangladesh, the other was Guatemalan, Lebanese, Filipino, and a guy from Afghanistan that just became my core group of friends, the six of us.

And we would just do what stupid suburban kids would do. We would try to sneak into movie theaters. we would drive too fast on [00:15:00] surface streetsyou know, just basic kid stuff. But I think finding that group of folks who didn't quite fit and we just became our own little, support group in a way.

Duncan: Was that just a tacit understanding amongst you guys that you didn't quite fit?

Ethan: I think. So, you know, I don't think we were emotionally aware enough to actually like, piece it together and talk about it. but there was just something very natural about how we hung out and joked and it just seemed very easy.

Duncan: And how was high school? You were still doing really well.

Ethan: Yeah, I think the reason why I moved to Irvine is they were known to having like a very good public school system. So that's why my mom made the move. 'cause their schools were based off where you lived. And I just continued to, you know, do well and take the AP classes that will help you get, credits for college.

But again, I think, you know, I'm not trying to say that I was so special. I was more like, I had a mom who instilled fear in me from an early age. You know, I owe that to her. I owe a lot of that to her.

Duncan: What did you wanna do when you were in high school? Or did you not have a good [00:16:00] sense?

Ethan: I, I don't think I had a good sense to be honest. it was almost like I was doing well in school because my mom told me to, and I had the fear of not doing well, but I didn't really have like a passion that I was working towards. I remember very clearly when I was a senior, I had a girlfriend at the time and she was applying to do this bachelor's BS MD program.

I don't think they exist so much anymore, but you could essentially go right into this program where you do four years of undergrad and then you'd automatically go into the MD program. And I remember not really understanding that, and I remember I was like driving her to, her interview is at UC San Diego.

And I didn't know at the time, but now when I reflect back on it, I was like, man, I was really just the loser boyfriend who was hanging on to this like, really driven woman who knew what she wanted in life, who was like, got into this BS MD program, which is insane. They accept, I think they only accepted four students for a class. An MD class would eventually be like 200.

And I'm just like this dorky guy who's just driving her, you know, just making sure [00:17:00] she's not late, you know, I was like, such a slacker. But I, yeah, I really, I really didn't know. And then I think I always had a predilection for the sciences, like mathematics, engineering, or biology of some sorts. But I really didn't know what I wanted to do.

Duncan: And then where did you end up going to college?

Ethan: I also end up going to UC San Diego. Again, in my very narrow view, I really didn't apply outside of California. University of California schools are really good schools. They're cheap schools. And so I think UC San Diego by rankings was like the best one I got into. I didn't apply to UCLA, I really wasn't into the LA scene.

 I grew up surfing in California, so, you know, there's good surf there, in San Diego. And they have a good engineering and biology program. And so that kind of was a natural fit an hour from home. It was kind of natural fit for me to go that way.

Duncan: And then what did you study? Or did you have a good idea of what you were gonna study when you went there?

Ethan: I don't think so. I think I listed my major as biology. Again, because I had this predilection towards mathematics and sciences, but, it really was just a [00:18:00] placeholder. And as I was there, I started moving towards marine science because it just kind of fit pieces of, there's science involved, there's like biology, organic tissue involved.

I like to surf, so there's ocean involved. And the Scripps Institute of oceanography at UC San Diego is a really good program. And so those, things kind of started to, to gel together. So I thought I was gonna go that way. And I worked in some fish labs in some ecology labs. And I just remember like cutting out chunks of fro they, one of the labs I was in, we were analyzing.

I don't even remember some something in tuna and we just had frozen tuna from all over the Pacific and I was just cutting out little square cubes of tuna and then putting it into like this little tube and then cutting out another tube. And I did that for hours and I just thought, this is, this is not fun.

This is terrible.  And I couldn't really envision what it would be like as a career. And so that's when I kind of xed that off my list and pivoted something that would be much more [00:19:00] practical, and have more direct impact in people. Cause it started to become clear to me that the most important thing is, people.

And I think we can talk about it later, but that's what made me split from diagnostic radiology to interventional radiology.

Duncan: Can you tell me more about that? People? How, how did that realization that people were important or what does that mean?

Ethan: Yeah. I don't think I really unpacked that fully for myself. But I think growing up and having friends who I guess kind of misfits, and seeing people who were really struggling to get by, you know, people who don't speak English, who don't have college educations or didn't finish high school, so they're working very basic jobs.

 I just always felt, my heart just really went out for those folks. I was always thinking about some way to make their lives better. Like, how can I make their lives better? And that was just something that really stood out to me more than any. Really anything else as a kid or even just growing up.

 And at some point, I think I realized like one thing that is really impactful in helping out your fellow man is your health, right? That's really the most, in my mind, that the biggest determinant of if you're gonna be [00:20:00] happy and peaceful as an adult or even as a child. So at some point it all kind of just filtered through to healthcare being the key thing for me,

Duncan: But the reason that you had empathy or sympathy for those people.

Ethan: the reason, yeah, I, I I don't know if it's honestly because as I mentioned, I didn't, I haven't really unpacked it. I think it's just folks that have been in my situation, and just growing up with people who are in that same situation. And then maybe the empathy piece, I, I don't know if it's been cultivated or there was an, innate, feature within myself.

Maybe a little bit of both.

Duncan: And that wasn't getting filled by your studies of marine biology.

Ethan: No, I wasn't really empathetic to the fish that I was cutting up.

Duncan: So then what did you, transition to from marine biology?

Ethan: Yeah. So I think that's when I started to think about healthcare. This idea of, you know, what's gonna be more impactful than dissecting fish, for my fellow humans. And then what's the biggest impact in that way?

Is it designing an app so they can call a [00:21:00] taxi faster, you know, that didn't seem very compelling to me. And then moving towards kind of the sciences and biology, putting that together, like healthcare, just kind of check those boxes. And to be honest, I didn't really think critically about all the fields within healthcare.

I knew I find teeth disgusting, so dentistry wasn't, you know, high on the list. Um, and I think someone just pointing me towards, being a doctor. cause I don't know any doctors, there's no doctors in my family. I don't have family friends who are doctors.

Honestly. It just kind of came outta the blue. My closest interaction with someone who was in medical school, going to medical school was, was girlfriend when I was in high school. Honestly.

Duncan: So, so medicine was something that came up in undergrad that you were thinking about doing.

Ethan: It wasn't initially, but as I mentioned, like kind of the arc of, pivoting towards something that was more impactful to other humans. while encompassing things that I was kind of good at, like science, and then the practicality of like, I need a job, right?

I think we didn't really touch on this piece, but I think some people who come from more privileged [00:22:00] backgrounds have the luxury of being able to explore more, what they really want to do and they have more room for error versus folks who come from an immigrant background or refugees, they really don't have that luxury you know, you can't take a gap year when you have student loans to pay back. So you're a little more driven to find something that is gonna be a stable job that will pay for your loans. So I think those, pieces sort of check the boxes.

Duncan: I mean, you're triangulating from these different things, Yeah. And you're finding they all intersect at this one point and you're like, oh, actually medical

Ethan: yeah,

Duncan: sense and fulfills all of those different facets that you're looking for. And then where did you go from undergrad? Were you, do you think you'd be ready to take MCAT and go into med school from

Ethan: No, I wasn't. Yeah. I'm curious to hear other people. I mean, you know, some people say like, there's an aha moment, there's no aha for moment for me, it's kind of like, just as you mentioned, this triangulation of things just kind of coming into focus a little bit.

And it's a messy thing. And it's like we talked about earlier, even though in the real life it's [00:23:00] very messy, I think a key piece of succeeding is to make it seem clean. Right? Um, but for me, you know, I wasn't ready. When I was pivoting, I, was working in the stem cell biology lab.

I had to go back and take some courses because I didn't fulfill all the premedical requirement courses. I had to take the MCAT. I studied and took the MCAT at that time when I was working after an undergraduate. And then I got my act together and applied, as I mentioned, I was always pretty good academically.

So I got interviews and then did interviews which didn't go so well. And then the second, and then again, identify key problems with it, fix that.

Duncan: How would, how about experience? Did you shadow anyone? Did you have any experience firsthand with any doctors?

Ethan: Yeah, when I started to think about it, I did shadow some folks when I worked in the stem cell biology lab. Then all of a sudden I went from growing up with no exposure to the medical field, undergrad, no exposure to like MDs, PhDs and like basic science research. And then I want to pivoted to this, I guess what would classify as like a transitional lab working with [00:24:00] research coordinators.

Then I was surrounded by MDs, you know, like all the, like out of the blue and then I started shadowing the folks that we worked with. So I shadowed a, neonatologist, I shadowed a cardiologist, an endocrinologist, like all these folks that were just sort of affiliated with the lab to kind of see what they're doing.

And that's when it started, that's when it really became clear like, oh, this is what I really want to be doing. Like, I really want to be interacting with patients or, or other people learning their stories and learning problems that they have, trying to fix 'em with tools that I have. And, on the other side, it's also very practical job for me too,

Duncan: So that kind of was an aha moment it sounds like.

Ethan: I guess. I guess so. But it was like the very end of this fumbling in the dark, you know?

Duncan: Do you remember any of those particular shadowing experiences that really stood out to you where you're like, this is the mix of things that I want to be doing?

Ethan: I don't know if there was a specific moment that was like, this is it. Maybe that's why I don't think there's an aha moment. But, I think every shadowing experience is like a little bit different. And it was [00:25:00] more like the environment, like learning what the environment is like learning what rounds is like, like I never really experienced what standing around for four hours was like talking about people, or like standing in an OR not moving for, or just retracting something for four hours.

And so it's kind of seeing what that day to day life was like. 

Duncan: So a lot of the shadowing experience was just seeing that overall. What a day looks like interacting with all the people there. Do you remember having conversations with some of your lab mates or anyone there that was very insightful?

Ethan: No, not really. I think there are, there were folks that said, it's a good gig. No, no one brought this like pearl down to me that this is it. It was sort of like, it's not a bad gig, you know, you're like, you're like, you're doing good for people. It's a fun job. It's a rewarding job. it's a stable job and you know, that, that was kinda the gist of it.

Duncan: So then you submit all your applications. Were you applying everywhere or still just in California. Just surf spots.

Ethan: Yeah, I, I did end up applying everywhere 'cause I think at that [00:26:00] point I started speaking to the pre-med advisor or and they were saying this is what people do. even if you are a competitive applicant, you apply everywhere. So I applied everywhere. at that point, I think I lived a very sheltered life.

You know, born in Southern California mostly, I traveled within California 'cause my extended family lived in San Francisco Bay area. Went to college in San Diego, like I haven't really left California. So the idea of like living in Boston or New York was pretty foreign to me. but I just applied everywhere 'cause that's what you do.

And.

Duncan: And then you had that experience and you talked already about kind of how the interviews went. Yeah. And you are pointing out the importance of having a story having a particular kind of story that resonates with an interviewer, but also resonates across fields. You're saying like having a story arc.

That's clear. And that is well-defined and that being the important aspect that was missing in your first application.

Ethan: Yeah. I think that's one piece that, [00:27:00] and if there's anything you're gonna take away from my rambling today, is that you need to find mentors in something that you want to do. Who's gonna lay the roadmap out for you. Otherwise, you're just kind of fumbling in the dark. You can have a passion for something, but if you don't know the practical steps to achieve that, and really it comes from a mentor who's done it before, it's gonna be really hard, I think for you to achieve that goal.

 And then, so what I was mentioning earlier about the specific thing of having a good story arc that you can present in an interview, that's one thing a mentor can do for you. And I think the reason why I'm here now is like, how do you find a mentor, right? Like that's, you know, if you're like me, who's from refugee parents who don't even speak English, who end up in Southern California and you're hanging out with a bunch of other refugee families or immigrant folks who haven't really climbed this, I guess we can call it corporate ladder in America. Who do you know who can give this roadmap to you? I got lucky. I think I got lucky that when I was in college, working [00:28:00] in this fish lab, my primary investigator, he was a good mentor and he said, if you wanna do these things, you gotta start thinking about taking these steps.

 And then when I joined this next lab and the stem cell biology lab, outstanding mentor and he is like, if you want to do these things, you need to do these steps. So I got, I just happened to fumble my way in to finding really good mentors who knew what they were talking about, who cared about me. What we wanna offer is some program where we can bring mentors to people who are looking for not the other way around. Right. So we want to be able to have like a panel of mentors, who are available for students who want them to achieve whatever goals they have, whether it be in medicine or something else.

Duncan: So what you're talking about is your own experience finding mentors that were so integral in you navigating this process to medicine that you had the good fortune of finding. And it sounds like they're incredible, particularly because they were in different fields than where you ended up, but they were still supportive and it sounded like they cared about you.

Ethan: Yeah.

I think it's hard to find, [00:29:00] you know, especially if you don't know where to look. This is something that we're doing in our department, And there's a lot of different levels. I know you're working on a separate level too, but I think for us, we're just focusing on a group of middle schoolers, and high schoolers.

And I think you're more focused on the undergraduate level, but it's to really raise awareness that this is even an idea. Right. So we've done outreach at different schools around Seattle. One of them is Mercer Asa International Middle School. Another is the Cleveland STEM School, both in, Beacon Hill area.

And I go along with some of our other trainees. We talk about the field of radiology. And we kind of start with like who's heard of of radiology, it's like no one has any idea what radiology is. No one knows that there's a special doctor who, is trained in interpreting images about the human body.

And that's really like the first step. You know, you and I have been talking about the last step, which is like getting a mentor to tell you how to get there. But, you know, we have been working on the first step, which just like learning that you can even be, this, this is something that's out there that, that, you know, you can aspire to be.

Duncan: And what was the genesis of this? [00:30:00] How did you come up with this?

Ethan: Yeah, I think this, you know, it's not like a novel model, a novel idea. I think for me, what really drove home to me, is the political climate, to be honest. And, with the last election and seeing a lot of these programs that, used to champion diversity, inclusion, equality, we used to have a program that would bring high school students to University of Washington to a radiology bootcamp and just like introduce idea radiology and that in a way is

it's finding mentors for them, right? We bring like 20 high school students. You know, it's not gonna stick for all of them, but if they want to go on and go into medicine, then we're automatically kind of their mentors 'cause they've been exposed to us. That went away completely and so I kind of relied on me and some of my colleagues to almost take a grassroots approach and just do it ourselves.

 I mean, this kind of came out of, my neighbor is a teacher for Mercer International Middle School, and I was like, Hey, what can I do? I kind of told 'em how we lost some funding to do the outreach that we're initially doing. What could, like, what can I do on my spare time to help out? And he's like, we got this thing called Career Cafe where we bring over folks who different [00:31:00] specialties and you can talk to students about what you do and what it takes to do it.

And then from there we met those career counselors and then they knew other career counselors at other schools and it's just been sort of growing from there.

Duncan: And who are the other people working with you

Ethan: Right now it's mostly, in my department's, me and, a few very enthusiastic residents.

Duncan: Is it only in, uh, radiology

Ethan: Yeah. So we're trying to build some synergy with other departments that here at University of Washington, but right now we're just only working within Department of Radiology.

Duncan: Okay, well let's think about it. If you want any internal med people, I think it would be a nice time to reach out. And when you're looking at these kids, do you see yourself in any of them?

Ethan: That's a, that's a funny question. I, I do, mostly in the sense that the cluelessness of it, you know, 'cause I was definitely like that. And I think that's the point, right? The point is to bring the awareness. Like you don't know what you don't know. And so, it's rewarding for me to, go talk to a group of 30 students who have no idea what radiology is or is a specialty that they can [00:32:00] do.

And at least when I leave, they have an idea of like what it is. It's funny, half of them are like staring off into space or like on their phone. But I can tell it's getting through. 'cause when you get to the end and there's questions, there's some insightful questions from them.

Duncan: What kind of questions do they ask?

Ethan: Some of 'em asked about like, sort of radiation exposure, which I thought was interesting, you know? Because that's not something, I would've thought of. Or what you need to be good at, to become a radiologist.

I mean, really, you and I were talking about medicine in general, but it's like people were like, do you need to be good at math? Like, 'cause I kind of hate math. I'm like, I mean, you don't really need to be good at math, but you need to do well in your math class. But, uh, you know, it's, funny to think what they view as barriers, right? Which is maybe like the most, basic bolts of it, but really in my mind, which we've been talking about, I think anyone has the capacity to do well in school and check that box. But really it's like my mind, the biggest barrier is having a mentor who will give you the roadmap.

Duncan: But then some of these kids are thinking about even just the nuts and bolts of it, And saying, Hey, I [00:33:00] just need to do well in this class. That to me is a challenge. Maybe 'cause I don't like it or, or other things. Do you mind taking me through, so you applied, you had to apply again to medical school after you got Yeah.

Rejected. How was feeling? I mean, you went back, how did feel getting rejected that first time after doing the interview?

Ethan: Yeah. Yeah. It felt terrible. You know, it was really a feeling of inadequacy. And it made me think, I even had to think harder if I, wanted to apply again. if I would cut it. You know, what if like, maybe this is a sign that I wouldn't be able to succeed succeed in medicine.

 And I think what was reassuring was, and this is, I think this is again the driving point of this rambling, is you need a mentor who will guide you in this way. I had this one point out that like, look, you got interviews at good schools and you didn't make the cut after this interview.

There must be something wrong with the interview. Honestly, I applied, again, I interviewed all the same schools. Like, it was like, it was just like more or less the same crop of things. And I had [00:34:00] lucky enough to get a second chance at, being a better interviewer, but that was like a skill that I just didn't have.

Duncan: And who was this, mentor that coached you through that?

Ethan: Yeah. he runs the lab at the University of California, San Francisco. Bruce Conklin, he runs a stem cell biology lab and he's an MD himself and I owe him a lot you know, he correctly identified that.

Like, I mean, up until that point, I've never interviewed ever in my life. You know, I never had like a real high school job, you know, interview to go to college, you know, so that, interviewing for med school was like the first exposure to be in the real world. My folks didn't really do that.

They couldn't really help me with that. My extended family, no one really spoke English enough well to like, help me with that. And so after that coaching, it made me feel a lot better about it. But like, it's, crazy to think that in reality, kind of a very small piece of the puzzle could have stopped me from becoming a doctor.

And my whole life now is like, my identity is a doctor. And it's amazing for me to think back that like Hey, you know, if I didn't get good coaching on how to just [00:35:00] interview properly, that could have stopped this. My life can be radically different from this relatively kind of small piece of the puzzle.

Duncan: And what I would suggest is that there's even a cultural component to way a story needs to be fashioned because your audience is very specific. I don't know if you remember those interview committees, but at least the story they're looking for. My guess is, is a very kind of ethnocentric type of story that fits these certain categories that the average person can follow and it creates a certain narrative.

My guess is that this narrative probably even. It differs between America and even Europe. Like what expectation or for like Vietnam. Like what kind of interview or what kind of way do you need to present yourself in a different culture? Probably quite different.

And maybe that's why your parents couldn't guide you is because of the expectations for this story you tell Is quite different. This, mentor that you had, he's American.

Ethan: he's half Japanese, half, half

white 

Duncan: And do you think that gave him some insight into.[00:36:00] 

Ethan: no, I think you're right. Yeah. yeah, you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. I think there's a element of, you kind of have to sanitize it a little bit to make it like palatable. I'm not saying you gotta change things, but I mean, it's kind of like anything, like you need to put a little bit of spin on it, to make it understandable and to make it work for you.

 So now I'm on the other side, right? I help coach medical students applying to residency. I sit on the admissions committee for the Department of Radiology, and it's interesting being on the other side and looking at people's stories about how they sell it to me.

You know, or like, like, or maybe like if I feel like I really enjoy their application and they don't interview quite well, then I'm always kind of nitpicks, oh, is it the interview? Right. Or are they missing something, or is the story kinda weird? I give 'em a benefit of that doubt in, that regard.

other 

Duncan: you have more insight even to what happened to you

through this?

Ethan: Yeah. For better or for worse,

Duncan: Yeah, well, I mean, it's the other question about how do you even judge someone [00:37:00] about anything

Ethan: that's a whole other can of

Duncan: yeah. And it's on, it's in the framework of your own experience, I think.

Ethan: Mm-hmm.

Duncan: why I think that the mentor that was giving you that advice was able to see things probably partially from your point of view as well.

Ethan: Yeah, and again, it's for me, it was just pure luck, dumb luck that I ended up in a lab with someone who cared, who it was, also part Asian, who kind of understood some of the cultural differences, who gave me the roadmap on what to do. You know, whole ideas to give these resources to the folks who are looking for it and not have 'em to stumble into it.

Duncan: Do you mind telling me some about how medical school went or where did you go to medical school?

Ethan: Yeah, I went to University of California in San Francisco and medical school was fine. You know, like, it wasn't like, I mean, it, it was hard work. But when I didn't get in through that first round, I had serious doubts like, am I gonna cut it? Do I have the academic skills to study hard long hours and learn the material, [00:38:00] understand the material?

Like, that's what I was thinking about at that point. And then when I went through medical school, I was like, I mean, sure you've put the time in, you can, you can get it done. I don't want to be like looking back with like, rose tinted glasses and thinking like, oh, it's, it's so easy after you pass it.

But it was very doable and honestly, it was a great time. I, I loved medical school. I don't know how you feel about it, but, Yeah, that's great. I met my wife there, and we talk about this a lot 'cause you know, as I mentioned, we have a son now and we think about how to, you know, raise him, you know, I'm half Vietnamese, half Chinese, she's white.

And so, you know, we have this little weird looking mixed race kid, and we think about how, you know, how he's actually comes from a very privileged background with two physician household, but how is he gonna navigate his cultural identity, in Seattle moving forward?

Duncan: And then how Radiology. So radiology, The way I see it is one of these rarefied fields, right, it's highly competitive to get into,

Ethan: Yeah.

Duncan: and I don't [00:39:00] even know how many people apply to it because it's quite competitive. How, how did that all come about?

Ethan: Yeah.

that's a great question. You know, uh, and it makes me think, we keep talking about this narrative arc, and as I'm talking with you, I realize that even for my life, there's nothing like that. I wish I had like a clear message to like, give people who are listening to this, but it's very, I think my life is an example of how really messy it can be, how jumbled it can be going through medical school, you know, those who aren't familiar, you kind of go through core rotations, you spend a couple weeks on medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics, neurology, so on and so forth.

Surgery, and I did all those, and honestly, they all were fine, but there was nothing that really stuck with me that like, this seems like something I could do.  And I was. Maybe this is the theme of my life. I just get lucky. I had to fill a two week gap in my schedule, and the only thing that was open was radiology, a two week radiology elective.

 So I took that. and so I sat in the reading room. So in a, the way [00:40:00] diagnostic radiology works is like a room, it's split into the different body parts. So there's like the neuro reading room where, a bunch of radiologists sit around and read things that are about the brain. Cat scans, MRIs of the brain.

 There's a chest reading room where they deal with the, heart and lungs. So I was like one day in each one of those reading rooms. And then one day in the interventional suite. So there's a subset of radiology called interventional radiology, where you use image guidance to perform minimally invasive procedures.

Usually ultrasound or CT, to do things like biopsies or other angiography procedures. And. If there was an aha moment in my life, I think when I ended up in the IR suite, the intervention radiology suite, that's when I started to think this could be for me. And what it was it was a really good mix of just technology and imaging, but also you're still improving the human condition.

You're curing you're very tangibly curing a sickness. diagnostic radiology is really more interpreting images. So I mentioned the workflow to sit in a room and just really kind of CAT scans at MRIs all day, every day. [00:41:00] And you're very uncommonly touch a patient versus interventional radiology, you're dealing with patients all day.

And so that marriage of using these really cool techniques to image folks. But also being able to talk to them, figure out what's wrong, lay hands on them, do a procedure and usually have an immediate fix. That whole package was really helpful for me. I think other pieces of medicine are missing, like the technology piece or they'll be missing the more tangible, practical fix.

Right. I think some folks talk about the thinking doctor and the doing doctor, right? I think you're a thinking doctor. proceduralists or more doing doctors. I kind of knew I wanted to be more doing doctor piece. But I view interventional related. I think it's really the coolest, best specialty in medicine.

We get to interpret a lot of our own images. I think other proceduralists don't. I mean they think they can, but they usually, you know, do it improperly. I also can like talk to a patient, elicit history and then I can fix it. So for [00:42:00] me, I feel, I feel very powerful in a way, like, um, without sounding too conceited,

Duncan: And there was that two week rotation.

Ethan: it was actually a one, it was a two week rotation, but I spent a day, a single day, in the interventional suite.

That kind of made me feel this is pretty cool

Duncan: What did you see in the interventional suite that day that you think really triggered

it 

Ethan: basic. It was like putting in a dialysis catheter and putting in an abscess drain. But I think I just really just, I, I mentioned the three pieces, the technology, the patient care aspect, and the procedural aspect. Those three things that just, I didn't really see in any, other rotations till that point.

 I loved it so much. I asked for, that was like, that was the end of my first, it was a two week rotation. That was the end of my first week.

Duncan: of third year Pro? Second year. End year

Ethan: yeah, it was like end of third year actually, but it was like two week rotation, you know, one day neuro, one day in chest, one day in body, and then a day in [00:43:00] interventional.

And I loved it so much for the next week. I was supposed to be in other reading rooms and I said, I just want to be in interventional radiology if I can. They're like, sure. So I spent the next week there and that's when I was like, I'm gonna keep an open mind and finish my other rotations, but this one, this one has a gold star on it so far.

and yeah, and that's just, and then

just

kind of committed, yeah. Committed to that path.

Duncan: And those three things that you found in it, did you know you were looking for those three aspects in a specialty or just something clicked when you were there?

Ethan: Yeah. I think something clicked. I don't, I don't know, you know, I mean, did you know, like, what was it like I, IF.

Duncan: No.

Ethan: Yeah.

Duncan: but I think interventional radiology, I would argue is much, probably more specific suite of things. Internal medicine is, it's a little bit of everything too within it, so,

Ethan: And I say this with a caveat that I am, I think I'm giving you the story arc right now. You know, I think at the time I didn't know, I, I think it was [00:44:00] like, this is cool, and then I don't know why it's cool. And then I had to apply for interventional radiology and I put this arc in my mind, and this is why I told interviewers of why I wanna do radiology, and now I'm regurgitating it back to you

Duncan: Which is an important insight to make too. Because it's, we've been modeled and trained to create these specific story arcs That other people can understand. And then you did fellowship.

Ethan: Yeah. The way it was then is you go into diagnostic radiology residency and that's when you really focus on learning how to interpret images. So you do everything you need to learn how to interpret x-rays, ultrasound, MR, CT, and throughout the entire body, the brain, pregnant ladies, kids, and that is a four year program.

Everyone does an internship, right? That's the first year of your residencies, an internship in either typically medicine or surgery. Then you do four years of diagnostic radiology. And then if you want to, if you wanna do interventional radiology, it's a year of [00:45:00] fellowship at that point.

So it's a year of just essentially doing procedures.

Duncan: But four years is a, four years is a lot of diagnostic radiology if you didn't enjoy that in of itself, you really en enjoy it in and of itself?

Ethan: It was a hard four years. I think I, I think what in my mind, what kept me going was that to be a good interventional radiologist, you need to be a really good diagnostic radiologist. Like you need to know how to interpret the images of, of the body to be able to perform procedures on the body.

 And so there were some hard times. Yeah. But, it's very necessary to go through that whole pathway. But yeah, as you, you were saying, you know, you view it as this really, from your medicine perspective, you as this competitive specialty, that's very different from yours. I never really had that in my mind.

Right. It was, for me, it was just, this is what I liked. This is what I could see myself doing. I, it was really hard for me to see myself doing other specialties. I probably would've been fine. But it was hard for me to imagine. So I just kind of went [00:46:00] for it.

Duncan: I think it's telling too. So it's a gut feeling

that you were

attracted to something and then maybe the story intellectualization of why you found it interesting is this layer that's put on top of it.

Ethan: Yeah, yeah. It's taken me, and this could be a message too, I've always used to poo poo the, advice of just follow your gut, you know, because I think like with a lot of people in medicine we're very rationally minded. It's like I need the reasons I need the evidence. You know, I need the, pros and cons list of why I should make a decision.

And you know, there are people throughout your life who'd be like, go with your gut. And I'd be like, that's absurd, right? My gut is irrational. I need to have the rational reasons of why I'm doing something. But as I've gotten older, I tend to go with my gut more. I think it's, it's usually right and then you can rationalize it later, right?

It's kind of like, then you develop your arc after you go with your gut. And so I think that's what it was, just like my gut feeling was like, this is something that I could really enjoy as a career.[00:47:00] 

Duncan: But even going back, it sounded like there was a gut decision when you're cutting your tuna fish cubes in the marine biology, right? That was gut feeling. It sounded like there was even a gut feeling when you were shadowing those colleagues. 'cause it wasn't one thing you could specifically point to, but shadowing those MD colleagues, it sounded like that was a gut feeling.

So it sounds like you have a track record of making gut decisions,

Ethan: Maybe that's just because I'm not smart enough to clearly articulate things, or reasons behind things, as

Duncan: think there's very good, have you heard about those research things where they ask people to choose between two posters

Ethan: mm-hmm.

Duncan: and then someone will pick one and then they'll ask them to explain or? Or you have to explain before you pick one. So if you go with your gut and they ask you, why did you pick that one?

They can still come up with a story, but they're much happier. But the person that you tell, I think, I think I'm telling this right, where you have to, they know they're gonna have to explain why they picked something. They take a lot longer to make their decision and they're less happy with whatever decision they make

Ethan: [00:48:00] yeah, yeah. I didn't hear about that.

Duncan: now.

Okay. Well, I'll, I'll find it. I might have, didn't do well with the details.

Hi, this is Duncan. Just to interject, I wasn't quite right with the details. I have included in the show notes a summary of the Wilson and Schooler article, thinking too much introspection can reduce the quality of preferences and decisions. And in one study they had strawberry jam preferences.

Students who simply tasted jams and rated them produced rankings that correlated well with expert taste test panels. But then when students were asked to analyze why they liked or disliked each jam, they produced ratings that diverged from expert consensus.

There's also an episode of Radiolab, which discusses this conundrum. So I was a little bit off in my assessment, but the key point is gut decisions are typically quite accurate, but it's when you try to analyze them that you can interfere with your gut decision.

Okay, back to the show.

So I guess now you're dealing with a lot of middle [00:49:00] schoolers, high schoolers. I think this podcast is aimed for a lot of undergrads, people at pre-health. What's a single piece of advice that you'd give to them?

Ethan: Yeah, I think we've kind of touched on the two pieces as we've kind of moved, through as I've been rambling. but I think that the themes are go with your gut you really trust it. As I mentioned, I was someone who doubted my gut, but you really, it's more powerful than you think.

 The second piece is really trying to find folks who are successful in what you want to do, and get them to kind of show you the ropes. Don't invent the wheel by yourself. I mean, I was kind of like that and I think I, I think it came from being a kid of refugees, being an immigrant here where there's not a lot of support and you kind of need to pull yourself up from the bootstraps.

And that was sort of the mentality that I had, and didn't always accept help from outside. And I think a critical piece is, again, just finding folks who are really successful in what you wanna do and be open to their advice and let them guide you.[00:50:00] 

Duncan: And how do you advise someone finding a mentor or connecting with someone?

Ethan: Yeah, I mean, that's, you that's the challenge at this point, right? We've been talking about how I got lucky because I found mentors and we don't want that to be the normal way of doing it. And so we're trying to bring back this program of bringing high school students to the University of Washington to do these little, radiology bootcamps is what we call them.

 But I think in getting yourself involved with organizations, or groups, it's probably gonna be the most useful for you at this point, right? So like these pre-health groups, cause they always work with some type of health mentor, or going through your career advising folks at your middle school or your high school, or your college. Again, I always kind of shied away from those things, but they're gonna have the resources that are plugged into folks who can help. And of course you can always you're welcome to come shadow University of Washington anytime too.

We have a shadowing program.

Duncan: With radiology. Oh, that sounds great. And we have one with International Medicine Clinic with a minority [00:51:00] association for pre-medical students at

Ethan: Uhhuh. Yeah.

Duncan: yeah, please, please reach out. I think that's the biggest advice, right? Yeah. Because I don't always get back to people like, I mean to, but think if you reach out to enough people, I think people at an academic institution want to mentor people.

Is that fair to say?

Ethan: Yeah. I mean that, that's why we're here, you that's why we work at the, at a university. know, we're trying to always, really educate the next, generation of doctors.

Duncan: One other thing, 

So the fascinating thing is like this story thing. So one of the people I interviewed recently, his name was JJ P. 

Ethan: Mm-hmm 

Duncan: And you can listen to his podcast. I think it's pretty interesting because he was a psychologist, had the same experience where he did like some post grad stuff and I was like, I, I can't do this.

Became a poet and writer and then a mental social health worker. But then one of the books he recommended was a Science of Storytelling. And it was so good. I read it twice and I have a copy. I can loan you the copy if you have any [00:52:00] extra time to think about it. But listening to you made me connecting is like, oh, those are the elements of story that we need to express. And I was thinking to do well in medicine, to get accepted even in any job, I think you have to have that kind of story it's a cultural expectation. But I was thinking even rounds, even the way we talk about patients. Is a story. Right. And it's a particular story with particular rules.

And if you deviate from it, what does a attending say? I can't follow you. Or that doesn't make sense. And I'm wondering how many of those elements are kind of idiosyncratic and they actually are not anything to do with medicine, but more of like the culture of medicine that we have a certain expectation.

And I think in a very similar way, what is the expectation, the way someone presents themself and saying they want to go into medicine. What is the story arc they're gonna tell of like redemption of interest? And I, what I would argue is that it's kind of this imposition that's put on people. And if you're from a different culture, you don't understand that [00:53:00] expectation.

It's like a medical student trying to present on wards, 

Ethan: Yeah. 

Duncan: And people are like, I can't follow you. it's not because what they're saying doesn't make sense, but it doesn't conform to the rules of the story. That we've been conditioned to learn.

Ethan: Right. I think that is a perfect analogy. 100%. And again, being, as I mentioned, I'm on the admissions committee now on the other side, it's like it's, I'm on a committee of folks and so I interviewed, you know, five, 10 students and I come to them and I say. I want you to accept the, you know, these five that I interviewed, because this is a story of redemption.

for this student, this is a story of, just pure competence. You know? And if I don't understand their story or if it's kind of convoluted or mixed, it's hard for me to convince a committee of that. Right? And so I'm not saying like, it's prohibitive, but it becomes easier if you can sell yourself in this story framework that you're talking

Duncan: Well, and then what you're [00:54:00] also pointing out is that not only are you the recipient of a story then you have to retell the story.

Ethan: why it's gotta be like, understandable, succinct. That's why you need that 30 second elevator pitch. 'cause then I like, I'm not the only person making this decision. I gotta sell it to my higher ups too, right?

Duncan: And the correlation with medicine is clear cut. Yeah. When you call that consult, it has to be a succinct story. Exactly. 

Ethan: Story 

Duncan: Because that fellow needs to present it to their attending, so it has to follow this formula. Wow. That's really, yeah.

One, one last thing I didn't ask. How did your background, how did this background of being the child of immigrants, how does that influence the way that you interact with patients or Cross-cultural care, whether it be with patients, with other providers, with, other potential mentees.

Ethan: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, you know, I think we know there's a lot of data that shows that you get better care from a physician who looks like you, same gender as [00:55:00] you. I think when I see folks who are refugees or you know, folks who have very poor health literacy or I know aren't gonna be able to navigate the system as well.

I really put effort into that. so I'm a procedure based specialty and if I think a patient needs a procedure that may or not be covered by their insurance, I will really spend a lot of effort to help them navigate their insurance, going through like insurance network writing appeals for them so they can get this procedure. 'cause I know they're gonna have a hard time, you know, they don't even speak English, like a hard time navigating this network. And I would do the same for any patient, honestly, but I, I just, it would be more pressing for me to do it for this particular patient.

you know, it'd be on the top of my to-do list and it just comes from a point where I just, I think I can really empathize with, you know, I can see myself as a kid or, or my, my mom. I'm imagining my mom trying to navigate who English isn't her first language trying to navigate an insurance bureaucracy and robocalls and things.

She's, there's no way she can deal with that. And [00:56:00] so I'm just much more, willing to go the extra mile for something like that. 

Well, thanks so much for your time. I know your post call today. I really appreciate all, of your insights.

Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's been a pleasure to be here. Thanks much for, for having me and letting me ramble here.

Duncan: That wraps up today's episode of the EthnoMed Podcast. I want to thank Dr. Ethan Hua for sharing not just his professional journey, but also the deeply personal elements that shaped it from growing up as a child of immigrants to struggling with the first round of medical school applications to discovering a passion for interventional radiology.

What stands out in this conversation is the importance of finding mentors to trust your gut, even when the path forward feels uncertain, and to craft a story that makes sense not only to others, but to yourself.

Dr. Ethan Hua reminds us that medicine like life is rarely linear. Our journeys are messy. Our arcs are often built in hindsight. And yet, these experiences give us the empathy and perspective to better guide [00:57:00] the next generation. If you're a student or early career professional listening today, take this as encouragement to seek out mentors, reach out for shadowing opportunities, and begin shaping your own narrative.

And if you're already in the field, consider how you might open doors for someone who is just starting out.

Here is Jefferson Nguyen, first year medical student at the University of Washington Medical School, and our guest for next week's episode.

Jefferson: I needed a job because, at this point my mom had lost her job. And when I graduated school, that was kind of a bittersweet graduation because I was like, I need to take care of the family, like right now. And so when she went on unemployment, I was freaking out and I just like wanted a job And I found a job working through UDub, it was at Harborview. It was the trauma and psychiatry lab and I was working as a researcher, interviewing patients who had survived significant traumas like gunshot wounds, motor vehicle accidents, assaults, and just hearing their experiences.

And listening to these stories is never easy, and not being able to do anything about it. It [00:58:00] got me exposed to a lot of different aspects of medicine and a lot of the nuances and disparities that exist in medicine.

Duncan: Thank you for listening to the EthnoMed Podcast, a community voice in the clinic. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend or colleague who might be inspired by Ethan's journey. You can also find more episodes on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

Be sure to visit our website@ethnomed.org for additional resources. Also, follow us on YouTube and Instagram at EthnoMedUW and on LinkedIn. Do you have comments or suggestions? We would love to hear from you at EthnoMedUW@uw.edu. Thank you and see you at our next episode.