School, Civics, and the Battle for Young Minds

What happens when a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist ask whether public schools are built to indoctrinate—and refuse to turn the question into a shouting match? We start with history, not heat, tracing Horace Mann’s citizen-making vision, the Prussian roots of standardization, and the slow drift from local classrooms to district, state, and federal control. If every layer sets the rules of what counts as “good citizenship,” then the fight isn’t over whether indoctrination exists, but over its aim, its authors, and its guardrails.

From there, we dive into the civics-shaped hole at the center of American life. We don’t need trivia champs; we need neighbors who understand why the Supreme Court exists, how laws move, and where power is checked. That’s where consensus gets tricky. Do we teach free speech as absolute or bounded? Is the Constitution a fixed standard or a living document? When higher ed prizes advocacy over analysis, K–12 inherits the impulse—and our politics turns into sports, all “shoot it!” with no sense of the playbook.

Parents aren’t spectators in this story. Every institution—public, private, church, team—indoctrinates. Choosing one is choosing a set of values, so the responsibility stays with us. We talk about showing up for local school boards, reading the standards that shape classrooms, and building critical thinking at home by asking why, early and often. The throughline is relational: connection before correction, mentorship over control as kids grow, and love as the durable bond that lets truth land.

If you care about education reform, civics literacy, curriculum battles, and raising independent thinkers, this conversation will sharpen your lens and widen your empathy. Press play, share it with a friend, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find the show. Your take: who should decide what “good citizenship” looks like?

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.comTh

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_06 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so well, we won a few games. And y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

All right. So Yeah, today we're gonna talk about we're getting close to the end of your list. I have three more here to talk about, but today I want to talk about the public school system. Okay, this is this is your statement. Yep. I want to preface it by that.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Resolved.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Yeah. The public school system is at its heart a government indoctrination system. All right. So before I let you tell me what you mean, um I want to say that I Go off king. Yeah. I I went ahead and I uh I um Googled it. And that actually I went to YouTube and I typed in exactly that. Okay. Oh, interesting. I typed in the public school system is at its heart, a government indoctrination system. To see who I've been listening to. Or to see who who has something to say about it. Uh-huh. Right. And so um I was uh it it was interesting to me um who who talked about that. But then um I thought to myself, well, okay, I'll get there in a second. Let's let me hear why you threw that statement out there, other than to try to create controversy.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Um well, I I think that um we have assumptions about systems that we are born into, that we live in. Uh we make assumptions about them. And um, I think the public school system is one of those systems that uh we assume well we say things, oh boy, almost. So we say things like no. Um, you know, we we assume that uh uh the school that I went to as a kid or that I'm sending my uh kid to, you know, they're just trying to uh teach them their ABCs and their one, two, threes and geology and whatever. And they're just trying to and they're and they're um uh just trying to uh educate my my kid to make them the smartest that they can be, and what whatever. It's just we we just kind of have this assumption that this is um the the function of this institution that we're sending our kid to. And I think that when um we step back uh from it and look at it and think, okay, where did it come from? What is the theory behind having free school, compulsory free school?

SPEAKER_05 3:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

What's the theory behind it? Why would a si uh, you know, if we started over again as a society and we just wiped away the slate and we said, okay, we're gonna start over, would we set it up the same way? Sure. And what would be the rationale behind that? Um and and there are some things that you um uh they kind of get drilled in as as uh into your mind as um I think as uh like truisms or as um you know a priori kind of assumptions that that you don't question uh that keep you from asking these questions, like uh should it be like this? Are we is it accomplishing the things that we want it to accomplish? What's the purpose? That kind of thing. And so when I do that, when I kind when I zoom out and I think about it, um, I think a couple of things. Uh I think that if I wipe the slate clean and I start uh a new society from zero, one of the things that I probably would be interested in is having a baseline of certain aspects of the society, like health, housing, these types of things and education, the baseline again, the baseline, uh a floor. I I think that um I probably would think as a society, it makes sense to have a floor for an education level. Um that raises an enormous amount of questions about uh who determines what that floor is, what is the education, all that kind of thing. Um, but I I do I think that a society goes, Yes, we're gonna give up some freedom. It's uh uh but I again I don't think that most people think about this, but I do. I think you're giving up freedom. How? Well, number one, it's compulsory. Number two, uh, nothing's for free, which means that all of that gets paid for somehow.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Taxes, which is another topic we'll have in the next couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Anytime. Anytime that you say you must you are compelled to give money, you're giving up some freedom, and it's not trivial, I think. But anyway, um that's a but but you can go, okay, that's okay. I'll give up some freedom. We'll give up freedom for this um you know uh r rising floor, this rising tide that hopefully will raise all of our ships a little bit, right? Help cut down on uh societal anarchy. Maybe this is the theory, maybe. Um and so the reason that so so I I start there, but then I go, okay, so this the this compulsory free education system uh when it starts, it starts at a local level and then starts to get this is the history, I mean the this is very uncontroversial history, then it starts to become subsumed by larger and larger organizations, so like um district, state, and now federal, right? Um so you know, federal department of education, which we I mean, we kind of touched on maybe a year ago, something like that, kind of tongue-in-cheek said department of education should be abolished, which um, you know, obviously is relevant uh now. Um but all of those larger and larger organizations, they all serve to standardize what it is that we're doing in this education process. And any time that someone is making a decision about the standard policy and procedure for the educational system, what we're doing is um creating some sort of uh indoctrination that is um that is it's it's based on some sort of top-down decision. And so when I say government indoctrination system, I really do mean government. It might be state, even if you pulled it down to a local level, even if you eliminated the Department of Education, you returned all of those decision-making um, all of those decisions back to a local level, it would still be a local government indoctrination um uh center uh or system. And does that answer your question about like why I said that, what my thought process was?

SPEAKER_04 8:54

Yeah, no, and and um I don't I don't necessarily disagree with you. Okay, so one of the things that I noticed is that it seems to me, as I was looking at the the uh the YouTube videos, is that those who are complaining right now about how it's an indoctrination, um, and they're trying and it's and they're using they're using language like they're trying to control your children and things like that. Um, it seems to be a lot of people complaining that the education system is being run run by uh ultra progressive people and um and that we need to, we as a country need to get that back. And so really, let's just acknowledge that there is indoctrination that goes on at schools. It's not just simply, like you said, uh let's learn arithmetic and let's learn um, you know, how to read and write. I mean, that's going on, but there's a lot more to it than that. Okay. I'm gonna argue that I don't I don't think that there's any way that you it could not be. Right. I mean, anytime you begin to educate children, unless you're will- and I mean, you can get into like um you can get into all kinds of uh um like early childhood development arguments about um, you know, brain brain development, and uh you can talk about like Piaget and and um at what point does uh reasoning begin and all that. All right. So all of that aside, I think that the the original reason for public education was indoctrination.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Okay, same way.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Right. Okay, so are you familiar with um his name? I had to look it up um just a minute ago because I couldn't remember it. What Horace Mann? Yeah. Okay, so Horace Mann, right, he's considered to be the founder of the public education system in the United States. Uh I I believe I'm correct in saying that um he looked at Prussia.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Prussian, yep, Prussian systems.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

And and then determine like and took that and began to apply it to the how we do public education here. Um he believed that it was uh essential for a functioning democracy, right? So that you could um children be able to learn like the basic skills to be good citizens. Um I think he probably had something in there too about social mobility, but I'd have to look more at what he was talking about in order to be able to even speak into that. All right. So um a few years ago, actually, I think it's been almost 13 years now, Richard Dreyfus wrote a book. And um and he kind of picked up on that idea that at the at the at its at its core, what what the schools if it is an indoctrination system, which is fine, um to what end? Right. And I think that that really becomes the rub. It's to what end? And so he argues, Richard Dreyfus now, that one of the problems that we have is that we have removed civics from school. So if if it if the purpose of a public school is to develop good citizenship, you're no longer doing that if you're not teaching civics. Which I think is part of the reason we and and I'm not even gonna make fun of people. I think it's a waste of time to make fun of people. Um, you know, like you can watch a video. There's one out there right now about how can you name who who's a chief justice today? And and okay, fine. Sure. I I watched a few. Yeah, yeah. And we can all sit back and laugh at them while secretly we can't answer the freaking question either. I know. Just kidding. Yeah. Just kidding. I was just trying to think if I could.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

The Chief Justice? Is it the Chief Justice? John Roberts. Roberts, that's it. I um but I get that.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

That's yeah, I wanted to say Robertson, but I didn't think that was right.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

So knowing the details like that of individual persons, while I think it is uh it there is some level of importance that I could talk about. I don't think you need to know those things.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

I think it's important to know why we have a Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

What the Supreme Court's supposed to do.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. And do you remember um do you remember those old schoolhouse videos? Did they still use them when you were in school?

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Uh I saw one when I was like in elementary school. Just a bill. Um a bill? Yeah, the bill thing. I love that. Which is complete fiction.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

But anyway, anyway, it was great, but those were great videos. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. Indoctrination, of course. So I think I mean I could get into okay, let me let me so again, I'm watching videos, right? And I'm doing all this thing. But um I came a go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Is the is uh do you feel like the statement on its face is not as uncontroversial then? I don't have a problem with that.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

I don't have a problem with that. I think that the controversy is what are we indoctrinating? Right? And and and that really comes down to the importance then of voting. Like we don't think it's like how many people take the time to really consider. Now I know it's getting more and more important with what's going on in our country, but how many people actually take the time to think about what's going on with what's going on in our country? A greater and greater divide. Okay. Which is causing people to become more and more interested in things, I think.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Yeah. Uh and and making politics sports more and more. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

It it be it becomes a um there's an entertainment value to it. Yeah. And then we all have an opinion about it, even though I always think it's interesting. Like when you try to watch uh a sporting event with somebody who never played, uh-huh. And but they've got all kinds of opinions.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Oh, interesting. Right. Oh, I thought you were gonna say like they just are uninterested.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Oh, no, no, no. Like, okay, for example, and I'll bring this back to the politics thing. Yeah. All right. So uh grew up a Detroit Red Wings fan, hockey. Okay, right. But then moved to St. Petersburg, Florida. Yeah. And when I moved there, there was no team. Yeah. Right. And then when and so, but as I lived there, the Tampa Bay Lightning like was an expansion team there. And so I got to, I got, I was living there as an adult when that happened. Okay. And um we would go to the games, and you had a bunch of people that grew up in Florida that had like they knew it was a sport, right? I mean, but they never really paid attention to it.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

It's like they heard Russia was a country.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

It never it never ice skated. Yeah. Right. So, I mean, so you'd go and I'd be watching, and and the teams would be like, there are plays. Like they're not just randomly running around after a puck, right? Yeah. And then all of a sudden you start, like they got the puck in the zone and they're trying to set up a play, and everyone just starts screaming, shoot it, shoot it, shoot it. And you look around and you're like, You, oh my gosh, just shut up. You don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah. Like, you don't want to just shoot it. All right. I feel like right now we have turned politics into that where we don't know because like civics has gone out. Like, we don't we don't even know how things are supposed to work. And we, but we all have an opinion because we've heard someone say something. It takes one person in an arena TL shoot it, and everyone else around them be like, well, that sounds like a pretty good idea. Right. Right. And all of a sudden we're gonna shoot it. And so all of a sudden we're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this person did that. And you're like, no, actually, they can't. Uh-huh. Right. It actually has to run through these processes. And so you can't say, and how long does it take for a process when it begins to actually like take place from the moment it becomes something, right? And so we we're all sitting back and we're watching it and we're all screaming, shoot it, shoot it, shoot it. I probably should have come up with a better analogy now that I'm thinking about that. I'm with you, and don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

We're all adults here. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

So, so anyway, um, go ahead. All right, no, no, no, no, go ahead. Uh, I was gonna go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

John uh John Mulaney had this bit. Um, comedian had this bit that we um we loved during the first Trump administration. He's uh he has a great long bit um referencing Trump. And he's not typically he's not a political comedian. He doesn't really get into politics, and so the stuff that he was talking about is just it's just really funny the way he's describing it. But um at quite kind of at the end, he's um saying something, it's something along the lines of like, and I know some of my friends are like, well, why didn't you say this when the last guy was doing the same thing? And he's like, get out of here with your facts. I wasn't paying attention back then. And I think it's like it's a really the it's a great, it's a great bit, it's really funny, but I think that it's very poignant too to what you're talking about. Uh, if you're describing like everyone just is, you know, kind of waking up to like, oh, well, this is crazy. Well, yeah, it was crazy eight years ago too, and it was crazy 17 years ago too. And you know, and then people who have like been watching politics as their sport for a long time are like, well, yeah, that's just kind of what they do. And like, you know, like um, and then but then to your point, but the other point of what you were saying, when you s a couple people start going, shoot it, shoot it, you know, shoot the puck, shoot the puck. And then everyone is like, no, go ahead, try to score. And you're sitting there going, no, you can't, you can't shoot the puck on the on the goal right now because there's this policy that says that you have to first get um, you know, a uh a war provision passed through Congress. And everyone's like uh, you know, doing the uh the Pompey uh thing of like, would you please stop quoting laws to those of us who have swords, right? That's that's the great Pompey line during the um during the first uh Roman Civil War. Please do not quote laws to those of us who have swords, right? When everyone's going, go ahead and do it, you just get more and more like mos mayorum being eroded, right? Because you don't have to your point, you don't there's all these people being like, just do it. And then at some point, the guy who's got the puck might go, Well, what if I just do it? Who's gonna stop me? Well, the ref. Well, I've got like 200 people behind me says that ref's not gonna do anything to me. How about that? Right, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:36

Yeah. Well, it's just there's so much with that analogy. All right. So yes, yes, it's indoctrination. The problem that we have right now is uh it is it really becomes a battle of um it's if it were simply indoctrination in order to help uh make us better citizens, that might that might actually be a really good thing. The study of civics. The debate though is more like, well, who gets to determine what's being indoctrinated? What makes you a good citizen? Yeah. And so so I do think it I do think it matters. Like pay attention to who's running for um school boards, local school boards all of a sudden. Like, don't just ignore that. Um Local politics super it's more important that Yeah, you can't just you can't just think that because you voted for the president that you've that you're gonna make a change. Um I think most I think that most of the politics that actually impact us are our local politics. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

So without a doubt. Uncontroversial. But but I don't think the reason that I made that statement the way that I made it is because I don't think most people, I think there are a lot of people who would be have their hackles up about that. They would not they would say that that no, that's wrong. It's not indoctrination.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Well, I think that it's be I think the reason you would have that, in my opinion, is because the the people that would be saying it's not are the people that right now are be are being accused of using it poorly. Sure. Right?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

So if I uh if and they would hear that statement as a dog whistle. Yeah. Right. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

So so let's just say that um that someone gets on uh well, I watched it this morning. Uh they they they make a video and they go out there and they talk about how right now your kids are being indoctrinated by the the woke snowflakes and all this kind of stuff, right? So if I if I'm a progressive person, if I'm a progressive person, right? Um You're gonna say no. They don't be like, it's not indoctrination, it's education, right? It's history. Right. But if all of a sudden, but if all of a sudden we're like someone else comes on and they say, you better watch out. They're indoctrinating your children to become Uber fundamentalists who are book burning Nazis and dot that which is happening. I mean, like I'm not saying that that's happening. I'm saying that's accusations that are being thrown around.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

Then in that context, I'm gonna say it's not indoctrination, it's education. And I'm gonna say the exact same thing that the other side is doing. It just depends on who's being accused at the moment. Yeah. All right. So that's how to me, that becomes a controversial statement if it is included in the accusation.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

But if we can step back for a moment, which is what I'm trying to do, and say, well, let's look at it objectively. If you go back to Horace Mann, that's exactly what it is. Right? I mean, it's built into the system, it's in its DNA. There's nothing you can do about it. So the so the question becomes, can we do it in a way that is beneficial, that is responsible? Um, you know, and I think also if you're a parent and you're listening to this, uh, get more involved in your children's education than just assume that everything's being done well and uh and whatever happens, happens. All right. So this is though I am going to get on a little bit of a bandwagon here. And I agree with Richard Dreyfus, and interestingly enough, I agree with um DeSantis. Mm-hmm. All right. Let's go, baby. Because uh DeSantis also believes that Civics needs to be brought back into our school. Yeah, sure. All right. Now we can debate what what is civics and what's being taught in civics. But I think that this gentleman whose name I wrote down, it's Benjamin, uh, I think it's Coese um Klutze. I don't know from this. All right. Yeah so anyway, um, I and I could have destroyed his name, uh, and I if I did, I apologize. But this is what he has to say about um civics being in our Civics is foundational.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

It's really important for students to understand um how the rules of this uh country came to be, um, the institutions that are set up in this uh country, you know, the political process that's in place, and a whole host of other things that um it's just important to know to live peacefully and engage and collaborate with your fellow citizens.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Okay. I think that's why it's important to have civics brought back into our school. I think that part of the part of, I mean, there's like you can't say this is the reason that we see our country gr grow getting a greater, greater divide. Like that would be too easy. But I do think that it might be a step to helping bring us back together a little bit is if we understood how the system's actually supposed to work.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah, I mean, the the immediate problem is who do you trust to tell your kids how the system is supposed to work, right? And how it was created. Uh, because I'm 100% with you. I would say that um one of the things that I think is compelling to me is that um is that they're uh in higher ed, there's been a big shift in the last, I would say the last 40 years, but certainly in the last 25 years, away from um kind of critical thinking and education as the fundamental uh virtue and toward advocacy and activism as the fundamental virtue. And that um and that that is that's filtered down. Uh one of the um the reasons um I think uh I feel compelled by that um you know that we have uh that in general the um the high school, junior high, and and elementary school um public school system um tends to have a um a left lean is because in the 70s the um the a lot of the people who were involved in like the I hesitate to say the civil rights movement, but in the end of that movement. So it's not them don't think the like the Martin Luther King Jr. aspect you know um uh time period, 50s and early 60s, think um Angela Davis and um you know it's it's not really Malcolm. Malcolm's um kind of in the middle there, but anyway, um more like the Angela Davis um uh people of the of the early 70s and the mid-70s, they did a really good job of um how can I say this non-prejudicially? They did a very good job of moving into the colleges of education and becoming the professors and the faculty of the colleges of education. And so for the last 30 to 40 years, we have had most of our most of our public school teachers have gone through being taught what education is um from the colleges of education across the country. And and so then you have um uh a zeitgeist that that says, well, what what should we be teaching the kids about how this how these systems came about, right? I mean, and we've been in this process of deconstructing these what we would consider myths now about how the system is supposed to work, how it was set up originally, who these people were who set it up originally, you know, this kind of thing. Um, and so I I think that still becomes a problem. Like, I don't know that I think a big reason why it you get pushback on like, well, we should bring Civics back, right? And the and the reason that you're gonna have like people like Descent DeSantis saying we have to bring Civics back is because it's a political score for his side. Because exactly what you're saying, I I think that um there's a lot of people, a lot of parents who would feel real uncomfortable with who are you gonna let who who are you gonna let make the decision on how we teach those civics. Right. You know what I mean? Like um you know, we gonna we gonna teach um I mean we even have we we're we've talked about this before, but um there is controversy over um how far free speech should go. And um are we gonna teach our kids that there should be are we that we're free speech absolutists? Or are we going to talk about how there's you know it's totally fine to have hate speech laws and you know these kinds of things? So you know, um like how are you okay, really good uh a specific example. How are you going to teach junior higher what the role of the Supreme Court is? Right? I mean I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh with my grandma um during the Bill Clinton years, and you know, I I um when um the Supreme Court would make a ruling that was in line with what Rush thought should happen, well then they have performed their duty, right? Uh checking checking the government, right? And if they did not, then they are uh, you know, um uh constitutional constructionalist. Or, you know, the um Right. I can I can't off the top of my head remember the the terms, but essentially like there's the there's the theories that the Constitution is a living document, should be it should be molded, and that's what the point of the Supreme Court is. And then there's the theory that no, the Supreme the Constitution should be kind of set in stone, and you the whole point is to have it set in stone so you have something to compare the laws to and see if they're constitutional, right? And like and so my my point is like the problem is how could we possibly get everyone to agree that this is how we're gonna teach you know a junior higher or high schooler.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Schoolhouse rocks. That's all you need. That's all you need. If you just come bring back the schoolhouse rocks videos, uh-huh. Because obviously we're all my generation, we are uh civic experts because of those videos. All right. Um I I think it's important. Um maybe maybe this is maybe this relates. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

I think I'll be the judge of that.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Okay. I think that all parents I think it's helpful if we just acknowledge. Oh, I gotta I gotta share this though, too, by the way. Speaking of just parents and and raising your kids in the public school systems or whatever. Um, when you send your kid to a private school, what you're actually saying is that uh I would rather they be indoctrinated this way.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 31:32

Right. So anyway, um, all right. So within the public This is why we do that. Sure. Um with well, with one of them.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Yeah, that's true. So and um which and I did it with none of mine.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Neither of mine. I shouldn't say none, like I've got multiple, I got two. Uh-huh. Um, but I will say this real quick, uh, just for full disclosures, I'm sitting here talking about public schools and how to, you know, all this. Um they sent uh Wilson County sent out a thing recently about um changing like starting times and things like that. Yeah. And I um I just smiled really big as I deleted the email.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Because you don't have to worry.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

My kid's 18 tomorrow, and he graduates, and I'm like, yeah, I don't care what you do. Anyway, um, how's that for being a good citizen, not caring what happens to anyone else's kids?

SPEAKER_03 32:19

I get I totally understand that whole third grader um do you know about this, the third grader testing thing?

SPEAKER_04 32:28

No, because I don't have a third grade, I haven't paid any attention.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

And I don't want to get too deep into it because it has it has its roots in trying to make sure that everyone is up to a standard and whatever, but there's this this whole thing of like third graders have uh in Tennessee have a standardized test they have to take. And then if they don't pass it, they can't progress to fourth grade. And it like, it's um again, uh it comes from, I really do think it comes from originally some someone was like, are we falling behind and we're you know, and we're we're not actually educating our kids. There, you know, we have X percentage that are in sixth grade and can't read or whatever it is. And so they so trying to come up with a solution, and but then what ends up happening is there's a ton of stress. If you go onto the elementary school boards, you'll see like there's like you know, parents talking about their kids are crying and they're they're upset and they can't, you know, they're just sending a lot of stress, and then what if they don't? Right, you know, then they have to do this extra schooling and or maybe they get help back in third grade. That's that feels kind of crazy and you know, these kind of things. And um I have to admit, like our we moved here when Ellis was in fourth grade. So when I heard about all of that, uh there was a part of me that was like, oh somebody else is they got on past that. I know. And that's not I'm not proud of that. I'm not sure. I'm not bragging about my moment. I'm not bragging about my apathy. So many things that we have to think about. There's one less thing.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Yeah, let me tell you how apathetic I am. Right? Like that's not a that's not a great point. That's not a that's not a great bragging point. Um okay. So I will say that um everyone's just accusing everyone else of being the one that's indoctrinating.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:13

All right. That's true. And uh and it's it's very politicized, like everything else. Yeah. Um so I think that parents, whether you are concerned that your children are being um indoctrinated into like Uber fundamentalism, whatever type of whatever, or if you're afraid that your kids are being turned into snowflake um woke kids, yeah. Right. And I'm using that and I'm using that language intentionally, yeah, right, to show that it's like okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Nazis and communists, man. Nazis and communists.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Right. And um don't forget the the uh well, I was about to say, yeah, okay. Um so um I uh uh this is something that Denise and I did well, unintentionally.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Help children learn to think critically. I think that's the best thing that's that we can do as parents. And I actually think that might like that might be a good thing to be taught in school. Um right, and and so I I was like, well, at what point can you start teaching that? Well, some experts say that as as as early as three years old, children start to realize that not everything they're getting is what like true, which is why you start hearing why, why a lot from little kids. Um, and so really by um ages like from three to six, uh you can sort of start like you actually try to answer their whys, even though like you know, my dad always used to say, because I told you so. Um, but sort of talk to that, but then really by the age of like seven to eleven, they can they can begin to uh engage in some more complex reasoning type of stuff. And so one of the I was thinking about this because I have a friend who um they're concerned about their child right now, and I'm not gonna get into why. Um but I was thinking I was thinking about like what advice could I give them as someone who's had children that have gone through this age that they're in. And and I thought, I I think the best thing you can do is just ask your own child why. Right. So if your kid's coming home and they're saying things that they've heard at school, whether it be from in the classroom, being taught, or whether it be from their friends, because let's let's not forget the role that other children are playing in your child's education. Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Um just like all my peers play in my life.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

Absolutely, right? And so, but I think the best thing to do is like if a if your child comes home and starts saying things, just ask, why? Like why, okay, why do you believe that? Why are you saying that? Um and and start forcing the child to actually start thinking through, you know. Well, is there any other have you ever heard anything else that would just that that would be different than that? What do you think of that? You know?

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Um and then punish them if they have the wrong answer.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Right. But I can remember like when my well like when my my children were in middle school, both of them went through this thing where they were like, I don't believe in God anymore. And I was like, that's great. No. I I took them out for ice cream. I was like, that's fantastic. Tell me why don't you believe in God anymore? You know? And um, and and I was like, this is a great step for you. And I know that a lot of parents would begin to freak, and the response would be, no, let me indoctrinate you in a different way. And I think that what we can really help children with is if we can develop like really intentionally and develop the critical thinking, then throughout their lives, that's something that maybe they'll be able to engage in and be better informed, uh, be be uh well-rounded, be uh a better neighbor to their to you know, to whoever is in their uh in sort of the within their sphere of influence. Um anyway, that's that's sort of my my attempt to try to help instead of just running back and forth accusing each other of being evil.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Well, and I I will say that the thing that I really don't like about um that that I bristle at with institutions in general is that as and I think this is a um reasonable or it's a it's a it's an expected result with humans, but we have a tendency as humans to um uh offload or um outsource our responsibility over things to the institutions that say they will provide that for us.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Church is a great example.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Church is a great example. I was gonna say that's another side of I to your point, I think the reason that it's important to maintain in my mind or in people's minds that that you're if you're sending your kid to a school at all, if it's public, if it's private, it doesn't matter. If you're not schooling them yourself, that it is and that you are giving them over to someone else to indoctrinate, right? Um, and so then I I think the important thing in that to your point is to remember it that their education is still your responsibility. You can't, you still can't outsource that. And so I I think that um and church is a perfect uh example of that as well. You're outsourcing or you're you're you've got this institution of spiritual development, spiritual and moral development. But if you if you then turn off that part of your responsibility because you've outsourced it to this, to this institution, I don't think that you end up with the best results. And I think that what you're saying is really important that you have to keep that as like this is still my responsibility. So yes, um I've you know, we've decided that it's uh gonna be beneficial for my kid to go to this school. It's still my responsibility to be involved. I should know what they're learning, I should be um connected with them. Yep. And then um, and then I and I should be trying to as effectively as possible helping them along the lines of their of their education. And then to add to that, something I was just talking to Krista about is um really annoying thing that my father-in-law used to say all the time when you're like you, if you're talking to him about somebody that you had some sort of disagreement with or you're um uh you're in a conflict with them, or like especially with kids, like that my kid is saying this thing or like going down this road, and what am I what should I do or whatever? And he would always say, just love them, just love him. And it was so annoying. It was so annoying. Yeah. Because it's you're you're like, that's not, that's nothing. You've given me nothing, Chris. That's nothing. Right?

SPEAKER_04 41:34

Yeah, thanks, literally, thanks for nothing.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Right. Yeah. Except I think that he was absolutely right. It reminds me of the Daryl Davis thing of like you've he's never talked anybody out of um, you know, extremist views, right? You the number one thing I think for the parents is to continue to have a connection with them, maintain the connection. And um, you know, you I I I think um I think that's your your best bet to um uh helping them making sure that you've, you know, as as my youth pastor used to say, you have to you have to earn the right to be able to say things um, you know, to challenge things. You can't just challenge. And certainly it's a difficult thing for a parent to transition from parenting an eight-year-old, where it's you have you have to tell them the things that they do and the things that they think. And, you know, and I say eight years old because I think that's right at the very beginning where you're starting somewhere in that range, eight to ten is somewhere in the range where they're starting to get a spark of like every once in a while you should be in the mentor role instead of in the kind of godlike parent role, right? By the time they're a teenager, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old, certainly by the time they're graduating from high school, 18 years old. Um I mean, it's really, it seems to me like 80%, maybe 90, 100% almost, you know, mentor role.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. I I think that um a couple things. One is it's not just the schools, it's any organization that you have your child involved in.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

Is there's a level of indoctrination that's taking place.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

You should just know it.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Yeah. You should just know it. You bring them to the church, and most churches there's a level of, especially younger kids, right? Like, um I know here we're trying to figure out how do we, how do we, because our big thing here with our learning ministries is we're looking for exploration, not indoctrination, right? But it's really we we haven't been able to figure that out yet with the with the youngest ones.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Yeah, my and you know my position. I think give that up with the youngest ones. I think that you should be indoctrinating with the youngest ones. Sure. That's just my position.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

And and and so that might be fine. I know that with the youth group, we're very much doing exploration. And with adults, that's like that's what we do, right? Um, but uh so it but it's not just churches and schools. Are they involved in scouting? Are they involved in a sports team? Like what what do you have? That is, I mean, I know that a lot of my uh my understanding of community developed as being on team sports. Yeah. Right? Like it it I it was a learning thing. So I think this is also really important for us. Rather than just shouting at what the other person's doing wrong, think about it would be it would be helpful for people to stop and think about what are your values, right? Because what we really want to sort of help our children with is develop shared values with us, right? Um what do you what do you want your children to value and then intentionally work towards that no matter what group, school, whatever they're a part of.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

So it's so hard when they're getting into um when they're in the teenager role and I'm I am first time through this right now because I know intellectually they have to rebel. I mean, I know all the theories. I understand that um the uh the that the process of an older child moving through adolescence and then into teenager life and then out is analogous to how women have described birth. By the time the baby's ready to come out, I mean they'll go through whatever. Just get this thing out of me, right? And it's kind of like that. Like, I don't want to say it's designed like that, uh, but it's it's like if it wasn't like that, it's a lot more difficult to go through that last part of labor, right? Um and and I I feel like it's very similar with a teenager. Like it, it's they have to in my wife would say, individuate. They have to individuate because obviously a 32-year-old saying, Well, what do you think, daddy, is a weird thing. Even just saying that your eyes went wide for a second. Especially with the use of daddy. Right. Well, that's my point. My point is like a a five or a six-year-old saying, What should I do, daddy? That's cute. Right. At some point, it's obviously a problem. And so there's that the the estuary, the transition time is so difficult. Um, and I know that. So I can again, so I just I can explain it. Now ask me to live that out with my own kid, right? And it's it's freaky, it freaks me out, makes me terrified. On the other hand, I have a really great kid, and so I was just you know, I I it's sometimes I'm like, well, he he's gotta push back in some ways, otherwise he's never gonna become himself, you know? And um, you know, so like my father-in-law said, you just love him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:34

Yeah, I want I want my kids to push back against everything. You know what I mean. Anyway, all right, one quote. I think it I think it is relevant. Yeah. And then I want your response to that, and then I want you to tell me the common ground we have. All right, this is Mark Twain. I never let education get in the way of my learning.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Yeah, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

Does it relate?

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

Okay. All right, common ground.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Well, I think both of us um just immediately agreed right from the beginning that the uh that I was right. Yeah. That's how I interpreted that.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

Actually, I've learned that the best way for us to maintain our friendship is for me to just acknowledge every time Lucas was right, I was wrong. And uh, and that way we can stay friends. So there you go. How do you find living on common ground? Um, be a Patsy. Right?

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, but actually this time, um This is why I don't have many friends, Jeff. I I love you.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

I don't know what to it takes a lot for me to you have you have great strength of character to uh maintain a friendship with me.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Yeah, that's not true. You're easy.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

All right.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.