From Trash Tomatoes to Climate Politics: How Ideas Take Root

Seeds don’t look like certainty—until you’ve seen them sprout a dozen times. We start with a backyard mystery of “trash tomatoes” and end up mapping how humans learn, trust, and pass on what we call truth. Along the way, we push into the hard question: when policies claim to be “for your own good,” are they honest stewardship or just control with better branding?

We explore how knowledge travels across generations, why some explanations (like demon possession) once felt as real as gravity, and how better models slowly replace them. That framework opens into a frank look at environmentalism: climate action versus ecological protection, wind turbines versus birds and whales, nuclear energy’s low carbon upside versus waste, and the messy ledger of chemicals such as glyphosate. We examine alarmism, the temptation of moral panic, and the populist soundbites that get attention while skipping tradeoffs. Rather than picking a camp, we choose specificity: clean air and water matter, tragedy of the commons is real, and policy is always a form of control—so let’s name it, justify it, and revise it as evidence changes.

What keeps the conversation grounded is our friendship across real differences—a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist testing each other’s assumptions without turning each other into villains. We don’t promise simple answers; we offer a method: pilot ideas, measure outcomes, admit costs, and protect what we can without pretending there are no tradeoffs. If you’re tired of shouting matches and ready for honest, practical curiosity about climate, ecology, and the politics in between, you’ll feel at home here.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking into your next debate. Your notes guide future episodes and help more people find common ground.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

But we're friends.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

No, okay. So yeah, I want to I want to record this because I think it's relevant to what we're gonna talk about. Okay, so you started this conversation about how do you know that when you put a seed in the ground, it's going to grow? And I said, well, you you know, because I I saw it as a kid. I saw somebody put and yes, okay, so you've seen it once, how do you know it'll happen again?

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Yeah, like well, I mean, just it there's no ultimate record somewhere that we all go and consult. It's nothing like that. It's just all us. Just humans. And and if I zoom out in my mind, there's like this long line of humans back to, you know, I think back to a common ancestor and to, you know, whatever. Um that like somehow just said, do this, and then plants grow up with with food. And then the next person said, Okay, I just do it. We just keep doing it.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

So we are believ so at some point you have to believe someone else what they tell you.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

Yes, we all just kind of believe that if we do this thing, it will work. Right. Turns out it does, but but we think that we will do things that will work that don't work all the time. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Okay, so I'm thinking right now about the scientific method of empiricism. Right? It has to be uh, what is it, uh like an observable, uh repeatable. Yeah, something like that. Right. Um and so I would I would say like with that, uh the best that you have is an educated guess that this will work again because one someone told you, uh probably someone showed you, uh, and then over time it becomes more and more concrete in your head because it continues.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

Yeah. Isn't that interesting that it's because someone showed me and told me and then I just keep doing it.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah. But I but we think like And if you if you go all the way back right, because I've thought about this too, like um someone had in my mind, the the planting thing, someone at some point made an observation that it's did you notice that when this thing falls off of that plant, or when this falls off of that tree, all of a sudden another tree starts growing there. And then said, Well, what if we took that thing that's falling off of that plant or that tree, or you know, I mean a tree is a plant, but you know, and we planted and we took one and then we planted it over here. Would it work? And then they tried it, and they were like, Oh my gosh, it worked. And that plant, we eat stuff. So what if we took the things that seemed to be making that grow and we planted a bunch of them and then it worked. You know, like, oh my gosh, we don't have to go gathering anymore. We can now become, and I'm sure this is what they said, we can now move out of the hunter-gatherer stage and move into an agricultural society.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

That's exactly what they said. I I've heard this described to and and part of this is like we have to imagine this happening for um people, say people who it it seems to me like would have had to have been less evolved. So not it's not in that cognitive way. No one's sitting and going, you know, I noticed, right? It it seems to me like it would have to be something that was like instinctive initially somehow. And I have heard this described that um that uh the progression from hunter-gatherer to um stationary or whatever that's whatever word you want to use for that, stationary farming, right? Um sedentary, where you're in one place where you stop moving, that there was a lot of um uh what we might consider quote unquote planting done by the hunter, by the, by the movers, by the nomadic type people, where they would move from here to then there and to the maybe like maybe there's like five different places that this group of people would move to throughout the year or whatever um to get because they knew like this was this would grow here at this time, or or they they would be able to find food there. You go here when the sun is like this, because then the food grows there, or there's there's wild animals or whatever. Sure. And that um there would have been at some point, there would have been um a progression of like we we throw seeds or something, we throw the fruit down on the ground here before we leave. And then when we come back, there's more food for us. But I just think about this because like it's such a, it's almost a it's almost a faith thing. It almost feels like faith. So my um we have tomatoes and we have lots of tomatoes in our um in our garden. We have like eight garden beds.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

If you ever have too many, we have so just let me know.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

I'll bring some for you next time I I come in. Um I think we have like 12 garden beds, and Krista plants tons of stuff. She has like a whole system. It's very, it's very cool. She has a friend that comes down from Indiana and um they have seed weekend.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Oh, yeah. You I remember I remember you guys talking about that.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Very fun.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

And so she they plan it all out. Sounds like a great time. Okay. So she's got all of those, right? Now, last year we noticed something that happened uh that this year went insane, which is my um chickens um eat the tomatoes and then they must uh poop them out. Okay. They they plant the seeds. They are plant, I'm sure of it, they're planting the seeds this year that will grow next year. Interesting. So last year we had a tomato plant that grew right next to where we um where we keep our uh garbage cans, so we call them the trash tomatoes. And it was the biggest, I mean, it's like a hedge. This thing is so huge. Because it also got fertilized. Because it got fertilized at the right time. Right. This year I had one grow. Um, so now that I know that this happens, I try not to um, when I'm mowing the lawn or I'm uh weed eating or whatever, and I see one of them come up, I don't pull them. I just let them grow wherever they grow in the property. And uh, so this year, right next to the um porch, the front porch, um, one started to grow and I just watched it. And so now this is the front porch. So that's not the chickens. That means some other birds were planting it in the front yard, which um we had like robin nests and stuff in our front yard. Uh, so a bird planted it clearly. Now I that's my assumption. Okay, we'll get to my point in a second, but porch for uh the so I call them a porch tomatoes. Again, this thing grew. It's as it's as big as the hedge that's in the front front porch and just constantly producing. We took our there's a place next to the fence in the backyard where when I cleaned out the chicken pen, took all the like the um extra topsoil. Every once in a while I try to like dig out some and then put put new sawdust down or whatever, you know. I took it all out and I put it over by the fence uh with the intention of using it for the for the garden beds because it's all chicken poop in there, so it's great fertilizer, right? Well, we didn't, forgot to. But then when tomato season came, we have what we call our forest of tomatoes. I'm not kidding. There's probably 50 tomato plants that grew up next to the fence. It covers the entire area right there, right? Okay, so all of this, this is my point with this. If I'm somebody who hasn't been told this is what's happening and I believe it, I would just see these things growing in random places, it seems like to me. Also, the tomatoes that um Krissa has grown in the in the garden beds, a lot of them like really struggled and didn't do well. And so to your point, like if you were, you know, some human, I don't know, 25,000 years ago or whatever, and you go, I'm gonna try to plant this, I'm gonna try to put this in the ground over here. I mean, you could put it in the ground and then maybe it doesn't come up if that happens. Yeah. Maybe it comes up and then it doesn't come up the next year. So, like, but I guess my point is like it just kind of when I zoom out on humanity, it just seems so interesting that like as a species, we've been pushing information forward every generation. Every new generation has to be told. If you want to grow food, this is what you do. You take a seed and you put it in the ground and then you water it. And then that generation has to believe the people who told them. Because there's no and that's for everything, too. There's no like directory. So do you ever think they all consult?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

What do you do ever think has there ever been an example of when it what was being pushed forward was wrong?

SPEAKER_05 11:12

Well, I mean, Richard Dawkins would say that's what religion is.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 11:18

That it's a mind virus that has been pushed forward.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

That this is what we believe.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

That yeah, these are these are correct things or whatever. But of course, the of course, actually, of course. There's tons of things that have been wrong, they get pushed forward. Um well, that we would now say are obviously wrong. Um, you know, we would say demon possession is obviously wrong.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Even though that's at one point it was observable, we believed it, this is this is our explanation for it, this is how that happens. Then we come, then we start coming up with uh psychoanalyst uh psychoanalysts, uh, psychology. Yeah, yeah. Right. And um and we start coming up with what we believe are better explanations than demon possession.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

But you could have been the child who's born, you kind of wake up in your fourth or fifth year, uh you are told about uh demons, this other world, these spirits, sometimes they possess, you would know, not believe, you would know that this is what the it would be part of the structure of the world in the same way that gravity is part of the structure of our world. We don't see it. I wonder how understand it. Yeah, it's part of our structure.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I wonder how long it takes for something to become like that's just part of our structure, right? Like, how long did it take before the first generation like just accepted as fact that planting seeds grew plants? Yeah. Right? Like how many generations had to, well, no, that's not like and so I'm wondering like how many generations does it take before because you bring up the demon possession one, right? Like you still have people today that would argue vehemently for demon possession. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_05 13:26

And it's a structure, I think, that is beneficial in some ways. And I could argue why it's beneficial, but anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

But no, so my point is, and how long ago, like, is it Freud? Like, is that the first or is it pre prior to Freud? And we always get sort of like the credit for being this guy, but but when people began to come up with other other explanations, other explanations for it. Um and so I wonder like if it is there going to be at some point generations later that the idea of demon possession just doesn't even cross the mind, right? Or what are other things like that? Um, you know, uh for example, um okay, we'll look at uh the dehumanization of um of of persons of color in our country, right? Like it was our our like when they wrote the um declaration of independence and they're talking about you know um all of the rights for all of the white landowners, uh male, they're not even considering the slaves because, well, they're actually only a certain percentage human, right? Like they're not really I gotta argue with that. Well, anyway, it's it's a okay, that's fine. That's right. But but my point is this like at some point that thought process uh has gone away, but there's still racism. All right, argue with me. Go ahead. I don't I don't care. We've already established that uh basically the best way for me to remain your friend is to just let you always be right. If you don't know what I'm talking about, listen to the previous episode.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

Okay, the three the three-fifths clause is always a big um uh pet peeve of mind because it gets brought up a lot. Um the three-fifths clause uh was um implemented um by northerners, not by southerners, by non-slave owners, not by slave owners, because the the slave owners wanted every slave to be counted as a full person. Sure. I see what you're saying. It was the non-slave owners that wanted them to not be counted as a full person so that the slave-holding South would not have any more power in the United government than they already had, which was tremendous power. Um and as far as the Declaration of Independence. So you're talking about for representation with us. For representation only. And it was it was a recognition that um look, uh they've got a lot more population than we have up here. And if we let them, if we have um proportional representation in the Congress, they are never losing power. We don't have a shot, us non-slave owning states, right? And uh so we want to have a shot because eventually we want to eliminate slavery. Um and uh and so that's never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Right. So I feel like I did a Mott and Bailey, and that's not what I tried to do. But I do uh let's just take that off the table for a second. There still is a there still is a a difference in belief of what other people are, right? Yeah. And so at some like I mean, at one point, there was a belief that it's absolutely okay to have these people as your property. Sure. Right. And also there's and you and not even question it. And but then so generations have gone and and and I can see like there's this process that happens where and I don't I don't think it's like an overnight thing, right? And and maybe it's safer to stick with your seed analogy, but I think that this is a good example. No, I think it's a good question. Because I think that what happens is, okay, so first what has to happen is a crack in the belief. There has to be something that that seems to be out of what we've already what we've always believed. There has to be something that causes that question. And then we don't just immediately we don't just immediately jettison the belief, right? Then we say, well, okay, maybe that was an anomaly. Let's we'll we're gonna continue. And then but then we become continue to reframe it, right? And I and and then so it went from so using the slave example, and and again, I have not thought this out. So it if it, you know, it's coming in to my mind right now. All right, so we have slave, okay, yeah, that's fine. All right, all right, so slavery ends. Some of us still believe that they should be slaves, some of us don't. Now you get to the point where probably m I would are I I would assume, I don't know, but that most people in the United States don't believe that we should um have slaves still. Right. But uh let's go back and let's go back and at one point when it first when when slavery is first ended, there are people that still believe, yes, they should be slaves, and there are some people that no, they shouldn't be slaves, and there's some people that had slaves and are like, well, that's probably the right thing, you know, whatever. And then over time, generations happen, and then it's like, well, yeah, okay, they shouldn't be slaves, but it doesn't mean they should have the same rights that we have, right? I mean, obviously that. And and so there's this evolution of thought that then, okay, well, then okay, well, we'll put into place Jim Crow laws and we'll do this, we'll do that. Okay, okay. Oh, oh, then well, now you know that you shouldn't do that either. And then so then it becomes, well, okay, that's okay, but they're still not as good as us. Why? Well, because. Right. And when we can we can build up our things. But then eventually, I think you'll get at, and I don't know how many generations it takes, and that's kind of the whole point. Is how many generations does it take before that belief, that that original belief is done?

unknown 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

And so if it was, and I think that there are some beliefs that will like they continue forever, like the seed thing, right? As long as that seems to be right for every gener, and I think almost every generation has to say, yeah, that seems to be right, that seems to be right, that seems to be right. And then you push it on to the next generation. And so if it was, if it's already started to come in question, then it becomes for some people, they push it on. Other people are like, well, right? Okay, so all of that to transition to this. There are things right now that we are debating in this world. Some people are fully convinced that it's a real thing and it needs to be pushed on to the next generations. Some people are becoming convinced that no, actually, we might have thought that that was real, but it but I don't know if that needs to be something that we the next generation like that we need to hand on. And there are some people who are like, it was never real. What are you even talking about? Right. And so uh one of those, it's a hot topic right now, is what's going on with our environment. Right? Because there are some people like, well, it's always been climate change and this and that, and you know, and then people are like, oh, obviously it's global warming and we're gonna burn all up. Your comment was that environmentalism as a political practice has at its core a desire to control. All right. So I want to talk a little bit about environmentalism. Um and I want I also want to point out that I think that this is way it's it's way more um uh nuanced than what we often want to talk about when we talk about environmentalism. All right, so you tell me what you were talking about first. And did I do a decent job of connecting that, or was that just BS and I just sort of threw that all together?

SPEAKER_05 20:38

No, it is it is good, and um I do think that you know, something that um I heard Ricky Gervais say one time when he was he was talking to Stephen Colbert about religion and science, and uh um you know, you can think what you want of this, but I thought I think that it it is relevant. His point was if you um if you got rid of all the religious books, religious teachings tomorrow, if you could, um, in a thousand years, you know, they would show up in different ways. It wouldn't show up the exact same way. And if you got rid of um the science books, they would show up in the same way in a thousand years. I I'm not exactly sure that I would um agree with him completely. I I think I would um I'd quibble a little bit, but I understand what he's saying. Because what he's saying is that um that the scientific method, if you use the scientific method, it's supposed to be what you talked about before. It's observation, experimentation, and then replication. Replication, yeah. Yeah. And um so I think that um some of these concepts that you're talking about that, you know, have seemed to have changed over the years. Um, I think they have changed. I don't see human civilization as a progression. Like I think that I think actually evolution is probably a better analogy in the the way that I I understand evolution to actually work, which is not a um we are progressing to be a more kind of refined version of the previous model, right? Uh it's not like 2.0 and 3.0 or whatever, it's just different based on the um the stresses uh that the environment places on the organism at any given time, whatever, you know. And um so I think that that's um I think that that's interesting. Um but you asked me about my particular statement. Um environmentalism specifically. I think um environmentalism as a political practice is the attempt to get humanity to change um what it's doing that it does not want to change. I think that's as a political practice, that's what it's doing.

unknown 23:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 23:24

Um, so that's not to say that um, you know, we shouldn't have, we shouldn't worry about clean water or clean air. That's nothing to say about um has nothing to say about um is human-caused climate change real or the entire cause of any kind of change that we're seeing, uh that we might see, you know, um that has nothing to do with any of that. It's what I meant by the statement environmentalism as a as a political practice, I'm talking about setting policies and enforcing those policies. That has at its base the desire for control. I think that it has at its base the um the assumption that um I know what you should do, but you don't want to do what I think you should do. And and there is a greater mission that's beyond that I know that that's beyond your ability to do what you want to do. So therefore I'm going to I I need to control what you want to do. Um and so you know, I think um again, I think that's kind of I don't know, it's to me it seems like a prima facie true statement, just like the public school system being primarily indoctrination. Whether or not last week, yeah, whether or not you think that that is like I think that I think that um people with a particular um uh world view, I I think that they should that it's legitimate to say, yes, we are trying to control because we think you should be controlled because you're doing the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Right. Right? Yeah, when you but when but when you state it that way, nobody wants to acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

Right. You don't want to be the one because we also have another virtue in our society, which is um it is the victim oppressor for or dichotomy, right? And it is it's more virtuous, it is not virtuous to be on the oppressor.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Yeah, yeah, and so I think it's um I gotta think about this for a second. But because it's a podcast, I'll try to think out loud. So I don't I guess I don't have a problem acknowledging that it's it is a um a desire for control. My question would be, um, what isn't? Can you think of anything that's a political practice that's not a desire to control? No. Right?

SPEAKER_05 26:27

So so specifically to pick out environmentalism, um Oh, the well, the reason that I pick out environmentalism is because I think that it cloaks itself in virtue. That's why. Don't most No, I don't think so. I don't think that I I'm not sure. Well, I mean, maybe you could argue with me. Maybe maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

I don't I don't know if I can I don't know if I can argue with you or not. I'm just trying to think like um it seems to me going back to your idea of oppressor, right? Victim oppressor, uh the value that we have, nobody wants to be the oppressor. I don't think nobody nobody wants to be the victim either. But um Oh, I disagree with that. Well, they don't actually want to be a victim, but they might like to be viewed as a victim.

SPEAKER_05 27:09

Oh, okay. I meant that's what I meant. I meant social okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Oh no, people want to be viewed as victims all the time.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Oh, I no, I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 27:18

I got you. Yeah, in fact nobody wants to ask you. There's a whole model.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

There's a whole model based on how to break out of a cycle when someone has constantly trying to um portray themselves as a victim.

SPEAKER_05 27:31

Well, you know, Tom Holland's um argument on that is that uh we have that virtue, that highest virtue in the West because of Christianity. It is a Christian virtue because we worship a um executed slave. That the uh that the the whole flipping on its head that we see as like the normal state of things, that the underdog, yeah, the the one who is done the right thing, but being oppressed, they're the good ones, yeah. That that is not what the assumption was of the Roman people.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

And for a lot of cultures, that it's a Christian virtue. I think that's interesting. Anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

I'm trying to think right now if that would be a stoic virtue, too. Anyway, um I don't think it is. I'd have to think about it. I think it's pretty uniquely Yeah, I don't think that I don't think a Stoic would want to be a victim uh because of this idea of rising above your circumstances. All right. Yeah. All right. So but I'm I'm derailing us on that one. Um Well, I'm not gonna argue with you because you know I am a um I'm a good Christian and I'm gonna allow you to uh win. Yes, yeah, good, right? Because I'm gonna be the victim today. Good. All right. No, um, okay, so yes, how many people need anger on one podcast? Environmentalism as a political practice is it has a desire to control. And all of them do. Um and so the the big difference you're saying is that this one though wraps itself in a way that it wants to appear virtuous. Right? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And I said, well, don't they all? And you said, no, I don't think so. Give me an example of one that is just like, dude, here I'm gonna control you and I'm gonna give you the finger.

SPEAKER_05 29:34

Yeah, I don't think that's give you the finger. I think that um uh I think, for instance, laws against theft. Um, I think I just don't think that they um that someone says you shouldn't steal. We're going to have a um we're gonna control your desire to steal. Um You don't think that's virtuous? I I do think that is virtuous. I don't think uh what What I mean by cloak itself in virtue is um I don't think that it's um I think that environmentalism says we're doing this for your own good. I think that um laws against stealing are no, we we have a right to our own stuff. I think laws against murder, it's not for your own good, we're going to control your behavior. Um I guess it's not just cloaked in virtue, it's cloaked in in um this uh kind of what is the right, you know, um well, it's it's for your own good. It's kind of paternalistic. Um uh I'm I'm doing this for you. It's the it's the seatbelt laws of public policy, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

Which I'm heavily against also.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

But it's an attempt to control based on I'm being virtuous, I'm trying to protect you. Yeah, I'm trying to protect you, I'm trying to help you. Vaccine laws.

SPEAKER_05 30:52

Here, I'm just yeah, right. I'm just trying to lob as many bombs as I can.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

But they're all this but they're all they're all virtuous. I mean, but they're I yes, they're all attempts to control, but that I mean, that's to me at the core of what any of these are and then watch the way I bring this back to our earlier conversation. Uh-huh. Abolitionism, the abolitionist, political movement, in an attempt to virtue control southern slave owners.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

Right, but their own good, not for the slave owner's own good, but for because like I think it was still wrapped in virtue.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yes, I understand that. Absolutely. And um, it's what's best for humanity, it's what's best for our nation.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

Yeah, forget about the the fact that I said virtue. I'll concede on that. What I meant is that you got everybody heard it.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Everybody heard it. I concede on that. All of the times I've said it, I've been vindicated. All right, go ahead. What I meant was the uh the for it's the Did you like the hands in the air? Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Yeah. Um I deserved it. Um the it's the it and I don't I can't think of the uh a a concise term for this, but it's it's the for-your own good. Like Abolitionism was Sure.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

They didn't ever believe that it was what was good for the slave owner. They believed that it was the right thing for humanity, for the right thing for those humans. You might even argue, I I think you could probably even argue that not all abolitionists thought it was even, they didn't even really care about what was good for the slave. There might have been something else going on there too, but we're not getting into that conversation.

SPEAKER_05 32:26

Yeah, a lot of them thought this is gonna be real bad for the freed slaves, and it was rough for a lot of people who were freed. Yeah. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

And we've seen how it's affect, I mean, this is generational. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Yep. Um, but yeah, so that's my that I guess that's the thing is like the reason that I singled it out is it's the um well, it's a controversial topic, but also um I just I I think that it gets it it gets well, yeah, it gets cloaked in this like, I'm um I'm just trying to do it for you.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah. And and I I I think that that's um I can't argue with that. I think that that's probably true. I think where you can start to get a divide is where people some people think that that is true. Yes. And some people don't.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Yes. And that's what I'm saying. Like I think that um I I would um just like I would feel better about, I might still oppose, but I would feel better about somebody saying um uh yes, we know that um health care is not a right. However, that being as it is, we still are going to provide health care to 100% of humans in our nation uh because because we want to raise the floor. And so we're gonna have a minimum level of healthcare. It's not gonna be whatever. You know what I mean? Like I just I have this, it's it's a problem, but I have this like thing where I just want it, I want it to be more precise. What are we actually saying here?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

What are we actually trying to accomplish? Well, and that's the thing about environmentalism, which I I think is interesting too, is because within what you would call maybe that camp, there's actually a divide.

SPEAKER_05 34:15

There's a lot of divides in there. You're totally right. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

And so I would like to, because I took time to record this, to just share a short little clip about environmentalism. Is that all right?

SPEAKER_05 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Probably the most common manifestation of environmentalism is opposition to global warming or climate change. Rising sea levels are clearly a threat to many natural systems and many animals and plant species, so fighting against climate change is often seen as being done for the environment. The other common manifestations of environmentalism are typically ecological, done to protect more specific habitats, like protecting penguins on some Atlantic island from an oil spill. At a first glance, these two interpretations of environmentalism have very little to do with each other. This is correct, and they frequently find themselves in opposition to each other. Just look at wind turbines. The climate change opponents are generally quite happy about them being used to generate electricity since they have no greenhouse gas emissions, unless you count the factories where they were made. Ecological activists, on the other hand, are quick to point out that birds might not be as clever or have as good vision as we might hope, and it's very unlikely to end well for said birds when they fly into one of the turbines. The same issue arises for nuclear energy. No greenhouse gases, but the nuclear waste has to be disposed in some way, probably in some poor squirrel's backyard. So that's that. Environmentalism is all about protecting the environment, which is fairly obvious. But you know it's important to politics when even the self-proclaimed environmentalists can't agree on what actual thing they want to protect.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Okay. As I was listening to that again, I was reminded of when um President Trump was talking about the wind turbines and talking about birds.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

And I and whales. There is a a real legitimate concern about their effect on whales as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Wind turbines?

SPEAKER_05 36:11

Wind turbines in um offshore wind turbines. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

So everyone kind of there was a there was a big um kerfuffle. Like a lot of people laughed at him when he said that. Yeah. And granted, he probably didn't articulate himself well.

SPEAKER_05 36:28

Because he's saying it like Trump says stuff.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah, right. But I think he I think, oh my gosh, this was twice in two weeks. I I sided with DeSantis, and now I'm supporting Trump in something he said.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

Now I'm raising my arm. I just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

No, I just see, I I a couple weeks ago I missed the um uh what was it? Uh it was gonna be the uh um the rapture. And obviously this is the end of the world because look what's happening here. But um, but I th I I kind of feel like he was making the point that that there that you can't just say this is what like oh environmentalism, right? Because there there are issues. And I I I'm assuming that he was trying to make that point instead of just saying, but what about the poor birds, or however he put it, which he he didn't exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:29

Like you could read Michael Schellenberger's stuff, um, who is a left-leaning or has been forever um uh journalist who then became a writer, who um his push on this uh topic is um that uh the b basically that we shouldn't be alarmists about any of these things. Not that we shouldn't be uh monitoring and working on these, but the alarmist position is um in my opinion, it is been uh uh adopted because uh uh people who have been studying this and and uh believe that they see a problem are frustrated that they can't get large groups of people to get on side and so have been ramping up their rhetoric about it. Um so that's that's the Michael Schellenberger thing. And so this is the thing about Trump. Like, I always feel like if people could realize what a populist is and how a populist talks, like just realize like he's a populist. So every time he's talking about something, unless it has to do with uh foreign trade imbalances, that is the only thing that he has been actually care that he actually I think has a position on for the last 30 or 40 years. I think that's the only thing he actually cares about is foreign trade imbalances because he's I've read about stuff that he's written, you know, back in the 80s and the 90s. Um he actually cares about that. Everything else I think he has no position on at all. He's a complete populist. So when he talks about this kind of stuff, he says it in ridiculous ways because he's not he doesn't actually care about any of it. Right. He's just a populist, he's just a guy who goes, anyway, we're gonna be. Okay, yeah, yeah. I'll say that. Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yep. All right. So uh does it make it wrong then? If that's the purpose, is to just make it wrong.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

The fact that it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Does it make environmentalism as a political practice wrong? Because if it does, I would argue then which political practice isn't wrong.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

Yeah, this is where I have difficulty because of my libertarian leanings.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Because I I want to go, yep, you're right, pretty much every political practice is wrong because of that.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Because it's an attempt to try to take control.

SPEAKER_05 40:12

Yeah. Right. Because it's a um because at its at the bottom of all of it is if you don't do what we say, we'll put you in a box. Um however, I also, and I've talked about this before, I've I'm not an extreme, uh well, I'm not an anarchist, and I wouldn't even consider myself a minarchist, you know, like a just like just this side of anarchy. So I recognize that we I I'm I am willing to um you know divest freedoms. I want to be clear-eyed when we do it. Um and so along those lines, I don't I think in uh for a um in a lot of worldviews, no. It doesn't make it wrong that it's trying to control. Because I think that you're right. I think all government policy is trying to control. It absolutely is. Even if it's I mean, even down to the lowest, to the smallest form of government, the family, the nuclear family, any rules are made to control. That's you know, otherwise it wouldn't be a rule, right? So I get that. Um yeah, so I I I don't I guess I don't think that that makes it inherently wrong, except for everything, every new regulation just makes me squeamish because of uh because of my libertarian um uh tendencies.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

And especially I think um if we go back to our original conversation, which at first may have seemed like it didn't relate, one we is at the end of the day a lot of these things we're doing what's what I'm assuming that whatever position people are on, they're doing it because they think it's right. And they think that ultimately it's probably what's best for everyone involved, right? Um but the question becomes it's probab the the point becomes it's probably gonna take generations before we actually know if that's true or not.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

Yeah, which is a big part of the reason that I think, I think that it's a big part of the reason why our founders set up the uh the system to move real slowly and to not be very effective. I mean, I I get very nervous about effective government personally for exactly this reason, because I don't think that we'll know um for maybe, you know, for for years and years if this policy or that policy was the best one.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah. And I think the issue with environmentalism right now is the way I understand it. The way I hear it is yes, it's gonna take generations, but the thing we gotta be careful with the thing that the caution, the the cautionary tale is we might not have generations to to determine because maybe by the time we determine it actually is a problem, it might be too late.

SPEAKER_05 43:27

And this is what the Schellenbergers of the world are saying we gotta step back from this kind of talk.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Right. Yeah, no, I I I'm I'm not saying that I I am not whether I agree with that or not, that's not my point. My point is that that seems to be what the argument is. Mm-hmm. Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:44

Yeah. Uh listen, it is to me, it is the same as what you're talking about. It's the same as my grandmother wanting to make sure that I say correct things and live a correct way so that I don't go to hell. Because in her mind, by the time you realize that you should have done something different, completely it's too late.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

So it it's and that's why I mean I think that it gets described as a religion a lot of times. Um not necessarily environmentalism in general, although I think that there's some there there's been progression. I mean, it I remember in the 90s when um environmentalism meant something different than just and I know people are gonna argue with me about this, but they're wrong. Um, meant something different about than just global warming, which then became climate change. Um, you know, it meant more along the lines of like uh the LA air was not fit to breathe, and we had poisoned waters and you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

The Cuyahoga River caught on fire.

SPEAKER_05 44:50

Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. It's the stuff that, frankly, that RFK Jr. was suing corporations to try to fix um in the 90s and the and the early aughts. Um and I think a lot of that has a lot of people who were in fights around that progressed to, you know, changed to uh you know, changed um their um focus, changed the focus. But um, you know, I there's some ways when in which um I could be considered environmentalist. For sure I am I'm you know very concerned about um I can never pronounce the uh the actual chemical, but the chemical, the the main chemical in Roundup. I'm very concerned about um those those types of chemicals just being everywhere that mine.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Sprayed my feet one time. Yeah. Because I was I do everything barefoot in my yard. Yeah. I don't mow barefoot, by the way. That's good. But everything else to do barefoot. Yeah, and I was spraying for stuff. I just spray right over my feet, and I was like, hmm.

SPEAKER_05 45:59

Well, to be frank, I mean, it it's it's probably the same as just spraying it and then walking over it. Yeah. You know? Sure. And it's the thing is, like, I'm not even um I I've used it. I'm sure it's all over my ground. Because it's supposed to, you know, glyph glyphosate. That's what it is. I don't know. I so there so I have things that I'm concerned about.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, I mean, heck, you're using chicken poo to fertilize your tomatoes. I know. So you're obviously an environmentalist. Yeah. All right, did we find common ground on this?

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Well, I think the both of us uh Well, okay, so I don't want to just do the easy one of like both of us see that. Both of us like tomatoes as true as a no, but I think um I I will say that I I don't um I understand the tragedy of the commons. Uh and um you know, I I don't want a poisoned world any more than anybody else does. That makes me concerned too.

SPEAKER_04 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Okay. Is that uh Yeah, no, I I I completely disagree. I completely agree with I almost said disagree with you. I want a poisoned world. No, of course I don't. I think that we definitely agree on that.

SPEAKER_05 47:22

And you got me to concede a point earlier.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

I know this is not my favorite episode. So, all right. Good job. Thanks. Yeah, see ya.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

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