Government Shutdowns, Stoicism, And What Really Matters

Feeling tugged to take a side on everything? We zoom out from the outrage to ask a harder question: what actually matters enough to shape your day, your community, and your character. Starting with the government shutdown, we separate optics from impact—what really happens when federal spending pauses, why retroactive pay masks immediate pain for contractors, and how uncertainty moves markets more than ideology. It’s not financial doom, but it is a strain on real people who live invoice to invoice.

From there we trade the blame reel for first principles. Keynesian stimulus vs Austrian restraint isn’t just team sport; it’s a window into how much of the economy depends on government spending and why stalled budgets ripple through local life. But instead of sinking into cynicism, we pivot to a pragmatic lens: use stoic philosophy as a filter for meaning. Focus on what you control. Practice courage, temperance, wisdom, and justice. Treat headlines as indifferents unless you’re ready to act. If a story matters, make it matter locally—help a neighbor, support a small business waiting on checks, bring dinner to a new parent, sit with a family in hospice.

We also wrestle with the value of history. One of us sees it as prologue that clarifies who we are now; the other asks how it changes today’s choices. Together we sketch a path back to small-community agency—fewer distractions, clearer roles, deeper ties. Sports and shows can stay, but rank them behind relationships. Politics can stay, but only if it leads to service. Our friendship—a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist—works because the person across the table matters more than the spectacle on the screen. That’s the common ground we’re building: less noise, more neighbor; fewer hot takes, more honest work.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s tired of the outrage treadmill, and leave a review with the one value you’ll practice this week. Your voice helps others find the signal in the noise.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

But we're friends.

SPEAKER_05 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they're living. Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

So um we can talk about government shutdown because we're in the midst of it. Boring yawn. Well, you know, here's the thing. Uh does it, does it uh I tried to look up this morning like because I haven't felt any personal impact by it. Right. Now I know Jordan did because he and Jamie spent fall break going to national parks. And uh, and so, you know, the big thing is like you're not gonna have a clean bathroom and you're not gonna get a chance to go to um to go to uh some of the some of the places that require you to um like like historical buildings and places and things like that. Like like like right now, if you went to Gatlinburg, you couldn't go through Cades Cove. Mm-hmm. Okay. You're thrilled I know. Okay. So I have been, I listen, uh politics have been my sport for so long. But I wanted to ask you a question. Go ahead. No, no, no, no. You say your thing. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

They've been my sport for so long. I have been through so many of these. And they're always so it's it's always such trifling. You're talking about government shutdowns in Japan. Yes, the government shutdowns. I remember the first one I remember was under the Obama administration when they shut down the government. And you know, they would put like caution tape around the um the memorial sites in Washington, D.C. and be like, you're not allowed to walk in this space.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

It's just so dumb. All of it's so dumb.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Now my family was impacted that time. How? So solely because they they were in New York. I didn't, I didn't get it to go. Um but uh they wanted to go to the Statue of Liberty and they'd shut it down. And so to me, it seems like things like that. Okay, a monument in DC to just put police tape by it. Well, there's not generally someone from the Park Services there anyway. So that's just a punishing of the American citizens because they can't get their crap together. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

It is a way to make the American citizens know that it's happening. Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

That's all that is, which just to me, I'm like So right now the Democrats are accusing the Republicans of trying to punish the American population into uh so that they will then force the Democrats to uh give in on the Affordable Care Act, ACA, right? All right. So um I wish people could see your face right now. Go ahead. What's your question? Okay. So um all right. Without getting into the I without getting into all of the like uh the politics of it.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Um how the D's want to uh protect uh health insurance for illegals.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

That is so you're welcome. Yeah, that's I would argue with that. But instead I'll just ignore it. Um even though I know that there's a couple people in our congregation, our community that wish I would uh jump all over that. Go for it. Um but but this financially all right, because that's the other area of your expertise, I think. Okay. What impact does it have on the average American financially? I mean uh it's tangential. I the um Because like I saw I I saw some like of those um big firms. Like I can't even think of the names of them right now because I'm s it's so out of my wheelhouse. Yeah, like the investment they come out and they like they like investment firms, like Goldman Sachs or something? Yeah, yes. Talking about how this is gonna like how horrible this is gonna be the longer it goes on for everyone's personal finances and and the economy and all this kind of stuff. It like is that just um is that just the skies falling, little chicken little running around, or is there like some truth to that?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Um uh the short answer is the it's it's analysts proving that they have a j a reason for existing. That's a short answer. But I mean there's there's some there's some things that you could you could analyze with that. I mean, you could say oh what are the the few things that you could you could talk about with that? Um it depends on what you're looking at. If you're looking at uh the stock market, you could say uncertainty always is uh a difficulty for uh for the stock market in general. Uh it the market likes certainty. It likes consistency.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Now part of the reason that that's yeah, I would say I would say consistency, because certainty doesn't exist. Well, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

You know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Nobody does, too bad.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

But well, but I'm just saying, like it's it doesn't perform well under uncertainty, generally speaking. So um uh I mean part of the reason that uh something like this creates uncertainty is because we do have a an economy that is um oh my gosh, I can't remember now off the top of my head the uh the economist's name that uh first put this theory forward back in the early 20th century that uh we have been on since um FDR destroyed our republic. Um You're just throwing all the little bombs out there. Yeah, I'm trying. Um no, we um why can't I remember his name? Oh my goodness. Don't look at me like I can help you. Okay. It's the theory that I keep wanting to say Krugman, but Krugman is um he's uh you can say that and I wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

We're in we're we are delving into areas that I have no opinion.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Anyway, this this economist of the early 20th century, he posited that every um country's economy is uh made up of three, actually three separate parts. And uh one of it is uh domestic product, one of its international trade, and then the other is government spending. And the government spending is an actual segment of the overall economy that should be uh looked at as a legitimate part of the overall economy, and that is the that is the one part of the overall economy that um uh that the government can control and that um the government can expand the economy by increasing government spending. Uh and so we have been on a in a process of creating uh an economy that that does exactly that for the last hundred years or so. Okay, eighty, ninety, hundred years or whatever. Um and uh uh and so that is the main reason why something like this um has any kind of effect on the economy is because now you have if you have a government shutdown, so technically speaking, the government's not supposed to pay its bills. Right? That's all that's the idea, is that like we don't have a budget.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Increase spending, don't pay your bills.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Well, no, no, no. I mean I mean a government shutdown means we're not gonna pay our mission accomplished. Yeah. No, the the government shutdown just means um technically speaking, we're supposed to approve a budget every year, just like a nonprofit. Right, right. And then if you don't have a budget approved, then you're not supposed to pay your bills until you have the budget approved, right? Because you don't you don't have approval to pay those things. So that's a government shutdown. The government shutdown is just we don't have an approved budget. And um and so we're not paying our bills. And so that shouldn't be according to the you know, Mises uh Austrian School of Economics that I follow, that should not be a big deal, right? Um, but it's a huge deal because we don't have you know a free market capitalist society. We have a quasi-socialist uh economy where a huge segment of our economy is government spending. And so um, so that's why it becomes a deal. Now, in the past, it's this is the reason that it's never really become a big deal, um is because the vast majority of the time, virtually every time that I can remember, uh, once the budget gets approved, it all gets paid retroactively. All these people that don't that aren't getting paid right now, they get paid retroactively. All the contracts get paid retroactively, all of it gets paid. Now, obviously, individuals usually live on a month-to-month basis. So you can only stretch that so far for a segment of society before their bills stop getting paid.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

And then that can cause ribble effects. Yeah. That's what the financial firms, when they start doing projections, they're what they're building into their assumptions is well, if we if it goes one more week, how many people will stop paying their own bills? If it goes four more weeks, you know, that kind of thing. And then um because the government, yes, the government employs thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people directly, but exponentially more than that is the amount of money that the government pays to contractors. Oh, private companies. So they're not paying those, or they shouldn't be paying those. I mean, obviously there's exceptions right now, but they wouldn't be paying those. And so that has an exponential effect because you know, if you've got a$20 million contract going to a contractor, um, that contractor probably employs 200 people or whatever. And so those people might not be getting paid because they're not, they're not working or whatever. And so then it again, all of this is like probably fine long term, um, because they'll get paid retroactively. I know there's been some talk about not paying them retroactively. I haven't looked too much in the detail of like legally how much that can be done. Um, but actually, my first experience with a government, quote unquote, government shutdown was when I was in elementary school, um, California had a similar thing. Because California has a um their state constitution. I don't know how interesting this is to anybody, but their state constitution specifically um makes it against unconstitutional to run a deficit. So California state is not ever supposed to run a deficit from year to year. Now, they just do it now. They um somewhere along the line 20, 25 years ago, something like that, they just started doing it. It's unconstitutional, though. And so when I was in elementary school, um my grandmother worked for Department of J State DOJ, uh State Department of Justice. So she was a state worker. And um, so she got paid in IOUs. I remember hearing her saying, like, we got IOUs again, this paycheck. So I think it was like it was like two or three paychecks she got IOUs. Um that was my first experience with it, but she got paid all of it. But again, it can be it definitely can be stressful for individuals, but I don't know. It just the whole thing seems silly to me. Well, it's always silly. It's always posturing.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Can I stop paying my taxes until they reconvene?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

I say you do it. Yeah. Go Wesley Slipes.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Well, because I mean, one of the things you have said is you should oppose all taxes at all times. In all places. Okay. You want to expand on that? Also, whose fault is this? I mean Democrats. Yeah. Well, it's no, I think uh yeah, I was so I was I was trying to look into some of this this morning as I was drinking my first cup of coffee. Um I mean, obviously the Democrats blame the Republicans, Republicans play uh blame the Democrats, and the independents blame everybody involved. Uh except and but nobody's blaming themselves. Uh nobody's taking credit for it. Sure. Um I do think it's very interesting, and I'm gonna share this. Um and maybe I'll maybe I'll pull the clip up too.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

But it's Keynesian economics. That's what I was looking for, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Say it again.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Keynesian.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Okay, I don't I'm not familiar with that.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

It uh Keynes was the um the uh that's his last name. He was a British economist that theorized this this idea.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Yeah, I I think the only book I've got on my shelf about anything is um who wrote it was during the Enlightenment, a book written about Adam Smith? No, give me another name. Um written about um capitalism as a form of gov as a form of uh economy. Anyway, um so there you go. I can't think of names either today. So uh so anyway, I did find it interesting that there was a clip going around last week that uh during you mentioned the Obama administration shutting down and and Trump coming on and uh and blasting away at Obama and saying it's the president whenever there's a government shutdown, it's always the president's fault. And then um, of course, now he's saying it's the Democrats' fault.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah, you can always find those clips both ways. Sure. Where there's like whoever whoever this is the reason that I have the that I pull the face that I that I do is that it's just this is this is one of the reasons I think that we should record we should video record every time we do it.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, we should do it. Um and then uh you can go to uh my Patreon account, which is free right now, um, and you can watch all of the videos. We could live stream it. Oh, actually that does remind me. I've run the idea about having a live recorded and people people are all over it.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Yeah. They they want to be able to chime in.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I think it would be fun. And they we could we could do a kind of panel, they could they could ask questions.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

We just need to schedule. I think we should schedule it for a Thursday evening. Um That sounds good. Yeah, okay, we'll get that on the schedule. So I think it would be fun. I think it would be too. All right. Um, so things that people really don't care about. I think that that's what I think that's kind of where this episode is headed. Yeah. Um, because I mean, unless, okay, I get it. If you're a government employee, you're a government contractor, uh, if you're health insurance right now, you're dependent upon the government. Uh like all I get it. All of those people um should care. Uh the rest of us tangentially are impacted by um all of that. And then the longer it goes, economically speaking, it will have an impact on us. But for the most part, right now, um, like uh I think more people on Tuesday evening were worried about the the results of the next episode of Dancing with the Stars than they were about the government shutdown. Sure. Right. Yeah. And I would are I would argue that that uh um Dancing with the Stars falls under a category of who really cares at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

You know what's funny about that one? I was at the gym four weeks ago, three, four weeks ago, something like that. And uh I'm looking up at the TV and they always have like the daytime TV like interview shows and Kelly and Mark or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

And I don't I don't know any of them, but yeah. I I don't anyway. You could be making up names right now and I wouldn't, yeah. But I saw Except the View. I do, I I know of the view.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Uh-huh. Um I saw on there um that they there was some talk show that was interviewing all the they had announced all the cast, the new slate of stars for Dancing with the Stars. And it was so funny because I texted Krista and I was like, I am officially old because they got me on this one. Because there was um it was Corey. I want to say it's Corey. Corey Feld. Corey Feldman because Haym is dead, right? Uh, but I know it was Corey Feldman. Okay, so Corey Feldman, yeah. They had Tapanga on there. I don't know who that person is. Okay. That's not a real name. I don't know her real name. Okay. That's her character name from Boy Meets World. She's like the first crush, one of the first crushes of everyone, every guy, my well straight guy, my uh I never saw that. Yeah, my age. Because it was, I would have been uh you would have been like 10 years too. Well, because you're 10 years older than I'm 10 years older than you. But I saw her and I was like, oh, I gotta watch Dancing with the Stars this time, like this, see, which I haven't, but I officially was like, I feel like they used the word, I feel like they use the word star very loosely.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah. But they got me with this one.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

But I still haven't watched it.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Well, we were uh we were out to dinner with Madison for her 21st birthday. Yeah. It was the 21st birthday weekend for her. But she had to like she wanted to make sure that we understood that she needed to be home by eight o'clock. Wait, did she just turn 21? On uh Monday. Oh, happy birthday, Madison. Yep. She she just official. She can officially buy you a cigar now. She could if she lived in Tennessee, but she's in Cincinnati. Okay. That is so weird to me since I grew up with uh she can also buy weed though now, because she lives in Ohio and she's 21.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Is weed legal in Ohio? Yeah. Yeah. I knew it wasn't Michigan. I don't know all the states out here because I, you know, obviously I'm from the hippie state, so it's been it's been legal there for like 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Right. Uh so yeah, as we're just randomly rambling here about things people don't really care about. I think that is the I think that's what this episode is about. That's great. Um California also, I think I think the other thing, you said it's a hippie state. I also think that it ranks number one in the amount of serial killers for any state.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

That sounds about right.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Right? I don't know. I think so. And and there was some some issues with some of the laws that happened, especially like during the 70s and 80s. Oh, sure. Right? You had the um where they began to to change the law with regards to um mental health, and people were just being released. And so you have people like uh um um Ed Kemper. I don't know this name. You don't know Ed Kemper? No. Oh, yeah. I gotta look this one up. You need to look him up. All right. Um and uh and then of course you've got the uh um uh what was the one in California in the 80s?

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Anyway, uh Well you've got the uh you you've got the uh CIA asset known as um uh Charles Manson.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yes, the CI. So anyway, I'm all into uh I'm listening to a podcast right now. Probably called Why? Um called uh it's all about serial killers. So I've been doing that. You're listening to a podcast all about serial killers? Yeah. It's very interesting. That's awesome. It's yeah, the the host is a um criminal psychologist, psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

And um it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

There, and I've got a book right here called The Boston Stranglers because of the theory that there was actually more than one.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

I don't know from this one. I'm not big into like the true crime thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Do you like the true crime thing? I do. And I know it's a big genre.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

But I Madison has gotten me into it because that's her whole shtick.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

I was gonna say it's it's like the stereotypical listener to a true crime thing is a woman. It's like big with women. But a woman who's studying Oh, that makes sense because she's into criminal justice. Criminal justice, yeah. Yeah, and she's getting ready to go to law school. Yeah, I know that's a good thing. So she's all about that.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

All right. So here's another thing that uh generally so last night um in our study group, we were um we were discussing. So we've been discussing how does Jeff read the Bible. That became a question for people. And um and so we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Because if you're gonna join our cult, you need to know how to do it correctly.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah. Now we I wish everybody could see my face. So um as I roll my eyes. So um the uh one of the things is you have to know what you're reading, right? Before you can know how to read it. Sure. Right, okay. So um anyway, we were talking about the role that humans play in the creation of the scriptures. So 100% of it? Yes. Um and so anyway, it was I I can get really geeked out. I can stand up and start using my whiteboard and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. We start talking about the Bible. Yeah. And um, and and the development of the development of theology. Um lately I've super been uh excited about philosophy. Again, it's been a long time. Um but I would say recently, like within the last what two, three months, maybe, maybe more than that. Um and uh so I've been doing a lot of studying about that. And um and so anyway, I realized uh then one of uh one of our participants last night, he looked at me and said, This, this is all this seems like history to me. What does it matter to me today? And I thought, well, that's a great question. And it was a good question, and but it and it actually segued into what we were getting ready to talk about that evening or last night. Um but it got me thinking about this too. Like, so I do, I I find it really interesting, but I am always trying to think about so what, so what, who cares? What does it mean for us? Um but I got thinking about how much of what we are all very much concerned about, all of the things that seem to capture our discussions, um, our attention, how men, how much of it is actually just circus? Um and I and I so I I started thinking back about, and I know we've had this conversation in the past, but we've been talking for two years, um, almost. It'll be two years next month. Um but Rome, right? Bread and what is it, bread and circus, circus and bread, I forget how exactly how they phrased it. Um, but how much of what we think is like really super important in this world today is just stuff that's being thrown out there to keep us entertained or to keep us actually not looking at the things that really are important. And so what are the things in your estimation that are really important that we should be concerned about, that we should be focusing on? Is there anything? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Or is it all just like No, it's I think that's a really I think that's a really good question. It um makes me think of conversation that Krista and I were having last night. Um it's funny that that question, the way that that uh person um framed it, this feels like history, but how is this important for me today? Is a really good question, I think, for me to hear um because it it always um history and the study of history to me I seems inherently meaningful. Always like it uh ever since college when I fell in love with history, um it always seemed to be um uh to be on its face important and meaningful and maybe some of the most meaningful study. Um and so it's good for me to remember that that that's a that's an instinct that I have, that's kind of an intuition that I have, that's not necessarily universal, and certainly other people don't have that same intuition. And so, yeah, trying to make sure that it does make it is meaningful in some way.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

And I think I think um I mean I have I have no statistics to back this up, no study to back this up. But I would I would guess that within our culture, the vast majority of people are not interested in history at all. Um so your interest in history, is it because those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it?

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So it's actually not. Okay. Um that's fine, but I've I it's not exactly that. Um it's more captured in um something that Dan Carlin always says, which is all of history is prologue. So it's not really like I'm trying to use it in a practical way, though that is something that I think I I do and at least and and I know other people look to me to help them do. Um to me it's more like there is an inherent value to know where we came from so that I have a better understanding as far as I feel like I can um about who I am now.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Um And does it matter where we're going then? Um because if all of the history is prologue, it means that there's chapters to come.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Sure. And yes, and it does matter. I do think that it I I it it does matter to me. It matters to me. I also don't but it but it that's just not the primary to me that's not the primary um intuition that I have about the meaning or the or the value of history. To me, it's it helps me better understand who I am today and who we all are today. Um and I want to I have like this this drive to want to know what's the correct way of looking at all of us today, right? What's the right answer? For what purpose? That's the that's the purpose. Just to just to be right. To be right. Okay. To have it be right. To know and to know that I'm not making a mistake about that. To to not this is where I'm saying, like I'm uh I'm trying to be a little vulnerable here because it's I know that that is not generally seen as like the the better way to view life. I just think that that is like my intuition is that um I I don't want to feel like a chump. I don't want to feel dumb. I don't want to feel like I made a mistake about knowing what's the what's correct, what's right, what actually is. Do you know what I mean? Um so go ahead. But to your question about like what are the meaningful things, like what should what's not circus? Um, Krista and I were talking last night about how like it's kind of impossible to live the small town life anymore. Um and and on its face, it seems like that's not true. You can go find small towns. But what what she was talking about is um what we were talking about is like a more of like a 19th century small town before the federal government has its fingers in everything. So then you could be a Small town and not be desperately poor. You could be a small town and not be not have a big portion of your population hooked on meth or um opioids or whatever, you know, um, not be dependent on government aid, you know, that kind of thing. Right. Um Mayberry. And yeah, well, and okay, so I know that that's idealized. I get that. Sure. But let's take Mayberry. When you're talking about the things that actually matter, it's, you know, this is what we're talking about. Like you've got a grocer, uh attorney, a teacher. You know, you're you have your a town drunk. A town drunk. Well, and Otis. That's right. I loved Otis. And the town drunk adorable. The town drunk can continue being the town drunk or not, as long as he's not, let's be honest, it's a he. As long as he's not um too much of a danger, becomes too much of a problem, right? And he's like the cousin, like everyone's like, you know, if it's 150 people in this town, you've got your role. You know your role in the town. And um, you know, uh we're we're kind of joking, like, you've got like six options for marriage, right? And that, and we're like, that's pretty much all you need. I mean, like, I, you know, I I know that's not, I know a lot of people will be like, yeah, it's not true. You people are wide-ranging, and that's and fine. But when it comes to like what you what's important, I think probably the reason that it feels like there's, you know, 99% of our life is unemployment, unimportant and circus is because we live an urban lifestyle, even if we're not living in an urban environment, because we have, you know, this society that is um the federal government or the you know, the the national government covers everything. And I think what actually probably matters is none of it. And what actually matters is the the role that you have in as small a community as you can make it, you know, and and um, you know, your your ability to help out a um your friend when they need some money and um bring food to um people who are uh just had a baby and go sit with the family whose um parent is on hospice and you know uh you know, I don't know. I just that it seems like the the important things are that's where the important things are.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Yeah. Um maybe none of it. No, I think that's good. Um as you're talking, I was thinking about a book I just finished reading yesterday called Um A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the Twenty First Century. Oh yeah. Have you read it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um Heather Haying, is that how you pronounce her name?

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Heather Hying Brett Weinstein or Weinstein. It's Weinstein. This is how you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Okay. Um, I know that uh E-I-E-I.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah. Harvey Weinstein, because Harvey Weinstein is mean. Okay. Brett Weinstein, because Weinstein is fine. That's how I remembered.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

All right.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Um, so I'd rather do the Dark Horse podcast. I I would love to talk to them at some point.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

I I reached out, I'll reach out again, especially after now that I've um read the book. And I and I found their email addresses in the back of the book. Okay. That made it easier too. So I'll reach out. Um, because yeah, I I I'm I'm interested in how their talk about how their understanding helps would help us reach common ground and how people live better together, which actually was kind of what their book was about, is about how do how do we live better together. And and they like when you talked about the history, understanding our history, I mean, they take it all the way back to the very beginning of evolution, right? And so like that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

They're evolutionary biologists.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Absolutely, right? And so that that stuff, I was like, meh. But um as but then we it actually started getting into the practical applications of why I found it fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah. And um because their their premise is that we haven't evolved to be the in the society that we live in.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

No, the the the world's changing faster than we can adapt to it for the last like probably 15,000 years. And and yeah, and because of that, we were on a crash course to destroy ourselves. Yeah. Was the premise of the book. Yep. And um, and it was fascinating. And um, and some of it was very affirming as far as like the raising children part. Um and then um not because Denise and I were excellent at it, we just just happened to But you had kind of this the same thing. We accidentally did things. We accidentally did things right. Sure. Yeah. Um and so I I would if I could go back, I would just be more intentional and all that. You probably had a strong instinct for it. Yeah. I think that that's it. I think that's how they would have they would argue that it was built within my uh my evolutionary biology that I had the instinct to there were things that seemed right, and you followed those. And yeah. So so when I think about things that are important or why they become important to me, and what are things that would not be just circus. Uh, I think that right now, uh, the reason I study, the reason I find theology so fascinating and specifically uh right now, I'm spending a lot of time studying the development of particular strands of theology or particular theological ideas is because I feel it's important to be able to continue uh moving forward with that. Right? That if there are um if if there are certain ways of understanding this world and as we get more information, how do we continue to communicate an understanding of the world in light of the new information that we have? Um and so that's something to me. And and that's the reason I asked about like, is it so that the next chapters or whatever? Because for me, yes, I want to understand right now, but I also want to be able to communicate well. I want to be able to help um set up situations uh to make it possible to create a better world moving forward or continue making a better world.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Uh I also though think about That's that one in you that wants to make it that wants to make that that sees that it can be better than it is and wants to make it better than it is. Yeah. And the five in me has no belief in better or worse. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

I and when I'm in when I'm in a bad when I'm in a bad frame of mind, I I jump right over to the five.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Um, but it's also I'm a nine, so for me, when I talk about being a better world, it's more of a how do I help create peace and all that. All right. Yeah. So, but here's the thing. Um I think right now that the things that are not circus are the things that contribute to making me a better person.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Right. I like that. Okay, I could get behind that.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

Okay. So uh, and I'm gonna frame it in terms of philosophy for a moment. Um, and I'm gonna say values. I'm gonna use, I'm gonna use the idea of values. Is it making am I living into the values that I should desire? Right. So, like if you want to take Jordan Peterson's and you want to talk about um beauty and um truth and um justice, right? The three values that Jordan Peterson talks about, um, which I like I said earlier before we started recording, I think he um I think that you can probably find I think you can find that in Plato too. Yeah. Um but um but is it is that aligning with uh sort of the that ground of being, right? Or or whatever, the underlying, is it the underlying I always get nervous using this word, but truth of the world, right? And the the way that those should align. Is that or I can go, I can jump over to Stoicism and I can say, um, you know, uh courage and temperance and wisdom and justice, right? Those four. Um I are the things that I'm doing, are the things that I'm engaging in, are the things that are are taking up space in my mind, are they helping me to become a better person than I was yesterday?

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

And again, that I think that does come out of Stoic philosophy, this idea of the only person you're actually competing against is yourself. Are you a better version of yourself today than you were yesterday? Everything else to me right now is just noise. Yeah. It is just it is a it is a waste of energy, right? Like I um I found myself right now, I am so bored with sports, professional sports. Interesting. It is it is mind-numbing to sit and spend three hours watching a sporting event that at the end of that three hours, all I have done is sat for three hours. Like there's no there's no there's not been any added value to me.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Right? Now, I will do it with friends because the friend time is valuable to me. Yeah, and I keep going back to this idea of um, and I think again, sorry everyone, this is stoic philosophy again, and and I know that I can I can hear the eyes rolling because if you've spent any time with me the last few months, you've you've heard way too much about stoic philosophy.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

But um You really can't talk about stoic philosophy too much with me.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

I I love it. And um But if you were to die today, what is what you're doing right now the thing that you would miss? And I that's my paraphrase of it. And so that's just been running through my mind all the time. And so if I am um by myself sitting there watching a sporting event, yeah, I think tomorrow or watching a show on Netflix, it's like, oh boy, if I died, I would really I'd be really upset because I didn't know how this season ended. Really?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Right. Um obviously not. No. Or maybe, I mean, there might be something like like maybe, maybe you could imagine a TV show series or something that was like meaningful. Sure. Sure. Um, but I but I I take your point.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Yeah. So and here's the thing too, though, and I and I hold all of this very it's the five of me. I just have to have the caveat. No, um, but I hold all of this very loosely too because I also don't want to be the the jerk who's like, oh, the things that you care about don't really matter. Yeah. Right. Because No, you're talking about yourself. Right. And ultimately, because what happens for me is that you matter, right? So the things that matter to you are absolutely fine because you matter to me.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Yeah.

unknown 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

So like I'm not I I sell it, so I'm not like sitting at home and and uh um and if if Denise and and uh Robbie are are watching a football game, obviously I'm gonna want to sit and watch the football game with them.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

No, you should ridicule them about wasting their time.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Right. Yeah, that would be a great thing to do. So anyway. So yeah, for me, um, when I talk about like what are the what is a waste of time, right? Because that's what this episode's been about. Like, what are the things that we just sort of waste our time with or or uh or that we get upset about that in the reality? And of course, stoic philosophy again. Are they things that are within your control or are they things that are not in your control? Are they um uh what what were those ah shoot? Uh the word just went right out of my head. Um anyway, I forget. It's a it's a word within stoic philosophy. It's not a it's not uh Greek or Latin, it's a translation, but it has to do with like sort of I want to say incidentals, but that's not the right word. Um but all of the things that happen. Anyway, how's that?

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Awesome. No, but um to your point about stoicism, one of the reasons that I love it is that um uh it has harsh words for those philosophers who would spend all their time thinking about uh how to be a better person, what they should do, um, and and instead would say um indifferences. Indifferences.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

That's the word I was thinking about. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Indifferences things that you that are that you should be indifferent toward that are indifferent toward you.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Yes. But and you have preferred you have preferred ones and non-preferred indifferences. But they're all indifferences. Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted. I don't know, but it popped into my head. I grabbed the book, did I didn't even have to open the book. Uh huh. Woo-hoo, win for me. All right, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

That's interesting. That you just needed to grab the book and then it popped into your head. I think that is very interesting. Anyway, um, one that is one of the things that I love about stoicism is that it it demands that you be active in your philosophy, that um that it is nothing. And that is one way that again, I think um to your uh overall argument about um modern Christianity, and when I say modern, I mean anything after like the first 10 years of Christianity, um, that it has strong doses of stoicism in it, because it has to be active. It's the um, it's the James faked without works thing. Stoicism is like it, you know, you can sit around and have all of the right answers, and you were just as wrong as if you had all the wrong answers, as far as a uh stoic philosopher would be concerned, uh, if you're not active in your philosophy. It should be an active work. You're going out and you're doing things the correct way. And you're doing things the wrong way and learning about it, right? You're not you're not sitting back like the like the Greek skeptics would sit back, which is my favorite Greek philosophy is skepticism, um, and just to criticize all thought, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Um, and the Stoics would say, well, that's you know, Stoicism is is um well, Zeno started as a cynic and then transitioned over to well, he started Stoicism out of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

So Yeah. Stoicism is the um it's the Teddy Roosevelt of Greek philosophy, I feel like. It is it is the man in the arena, you know, it is the one out there doing right. Well, I mean it's it's exemplified by Marcus Aurelius, so um, you know.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Um all right. So I don't think we ever disagreed on anything today. I think the whole thing was about common ground.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

I think the main thing that we disagreed on that you were wrong about is that um the government shut down is the Democrats' fault.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Sure. Actually, I probably I'm I'm of the opinion that it's um I'm gonna keep my opinions to myself. And just trying. Because well, that's okay. Um I think okay, so there's there's a model, there's a model right there on how to uh remain on um in in communion with people who you disagree with. Just keep your mouth shut.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

That's not a model that I follow.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

I I think it would be beneficial if everyone from time to time might follow that. All right. So um let's see, coming up, we're gonna have a couple live events coming up in the next in the next few months. So uh you're gonna want to be on the lookout for that. That's gonna be cool.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

And um and I really want to do that partly because uh, like we mentioned before, like I don't like the idea of people um hearing things that maybe that can get under their skin and then not having any chance to respond. You know, I think that's not I think that um the cathartic release of being able to respond uh or ask a pointed question, you know. I think that that's yes, it can cause it that can cause conflict also, sure. But I, you know, I want to give people the the opportunity to tell me that I'm full of crap, you know. Sure. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Yeah. Um and then uh I think if you're all right with it for the next the next few weeks, what we're gonna talk about is um some of the stuff I've been studying.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I think that's great. I'm looking forward to it. You okay? Yeah, absolutely. I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

All right, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

See ya.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.