God, Gum, And Emery Boards: A Surprisingly Deep Dive

Ever catch yourself deciding that someone’s chewing or phone volume is a moral failure? We start there—small frictions that expose big assumptions—and climb toward the larger question: how do we live together with sharp differences, without losing honesty or hope? As a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist, we test the edges of our friendship by trading judgments for curiosity, and certainty for conviction.

Jeff shares the heart of several writing projects, including Walking on Common Ground, The Bible I Thought I Knew, and a provocative new outline exploring God as energy. We trace a path from fundamentalism to a Midrash-like, nonliteral reading of scripture, where Jesus and Paul model imaginative engagement rather than proof-text combat. Along the way, we examine the live tension between science and faith: physics, geology, and evolutionary biology tell us how the world works, while theology can still ask why it matters. Instead of retreat, we look for integration—where meaning doesn’t fight mechanism.

The conversation turns candid on free will, with Sam Harris’s determinism in the mix and a pragmatic response: even if choice is constrained, life demands we act as if responsibility is real. That stance anchors our pivot into virtues, flourishing, and the practical shape of prayer and community. What if salvation is integration, not transaction? What if worship is attunement to what is true, beautiful, and just? And what if “God as energy” helps us name the ground of being that underwrites moral life without forcing a rigid metaphysics?

Expect a lively mix of humor, self-critique, theology, and philosophy—plus some nineties worship nostalgia and plans for an upcoming live event. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves good-faith debate, and leave a review with one question you want us to tackle next.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

But we're friends.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they're living. Man, so well, we won a few games. And y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

All right. I'm recording it. Even though I this is uh slightly embarrassing. Yes. Um awesome. So you know, I I uh um I firmly believe. Man, man, I have I've been doing so much thinking lately. That we went so much writing. Yeah, I do believe that, but I've been doing so much, I've been doing so much reading and so much thinking lately and um reflecting that I'm I'm getting to the point right now where I can't even talk because everything I say, um well, that's not really what I mean. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Oh my wife knows what you mean. Yeah, because I do the same thing. It's like, oh, I gotta give you the context for this. I can't, and then Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

So, all right. So when I say like even just saying I believe something right now, you want to tell you I want to talk about I want to talk about free will and beliefs as soon as I say that. But all right. So I I'm firmly committed to um creating uh spreading kindness. Um I think it's important, and um and I because I think that it's it's desperately needed um for even if even if you want to talk in terms of um evolutionary biology, I think that kindness is something that we desperately need right now in our culture for the sustainability of our own species. Um how's that? Yeah um and uh all right. So and I generally think of myself as a uh very accepting person. Okay. But every now and then I have these moments where I realize I've got a lot of work to do still on myself. And so like this morning I found myself quoting um Marcus Aurelius as I was sitting in the doctor's office in in my head. Yeah. Um because I was sitting there and man, was I being judgmental. Mm-hmm. Oh cool. It was it was horrible it was horrible. And I and so I had to remind myself of like this idea that um that they they are the same, they're of the same substance that I am, all of these people. And um uh we just we just have different um understandings, we have different uh we're coming at it from different perspectives, we've had different life experiences, we have different expectations of uh of whatever. And um and even though I may view something as um not preferred, uh it doesn't mean that I then have to behave in a way that um demeans me and that doesn't live up to the virtues that I want to uh that I want to attain in my own life. So that was helpful, right? But yeah, I did have this moment like there was this um there was this person um who walked in and she she checked in and then she sat down right next to me and proceeded to get her emery board out and and start doing her nails. And and I just think that that's not appropriate in public. So anyway. That's what it was. What do you mean? What do you mean that's what it was? Well when you said you were you were feeling judgmental. Oh yeah. Because you can hear that and I and all I can picture is like the dead thing, like and like the filings and stuff falling onto the floor. And I'm like, you should be doing that in your bath like in your bathroom at home. You don't do that in public.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

This is great. Oh, that's so uh it's so great. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Here's what's great about it for me. So people who are um closely related to me, and I I have to apologize to them all the time about this, but they know this about me, that I have um that I am I'm exactly like that about um anyone who makes sounds while they're eating.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

Uh I'm with you. And if you if you I will if I know that one of my friends is a is a open mouth eater, I will intentionally position my like if we all go out together, I will put intentionally position myself in such a way that I don't have to see them or hear them. Yeah. And see, here's the thing. Same thing, by the way, with microphones, chewing gum, mate like Oh yeah. Like Denise knows we call it morseling. Do you know what do you know I mean by that?

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Uh is that a Lord of the Rings thing? I don't know, but it's this noise. Yeah, I I can't. I can't. Even that, even you're you doing that right now.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

Denise will come up sometimes, like if I'm in the middle of doing, like if I'm if I'm writing or whatever, and she'll do it in my ear.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

My boys do that. My sons do that. Yeah. Because they think it's hilarious. Yeah, okay. And it is funny. It is it's it's funny, but it's disgusting. It's funny because um it is a it's a completely um amoral thing, right? It has no, there's no ethic to it at all. Not immoral, amoral. That's right. Yeah. It's totally amoral, it's totally non-ethical, has nothing to do with ethics, morals, being a good person or anything. It is totally an idea. Now, I understand there's the whole like people are gonna say, oh, that's misophonia. Yes, I've heard of all that. And I understand that there that's a thing. But there's also a misophonia. Everything has to have a word. Okay. Well, then you're gonna have to explain the word to me because I don't know what that means. Who get really upset about certain sounds. It's like uh it's to describe because everything today is described in psychological terms and whatever, you know. Yeah. Um, so that is like a sensory thing, which I I buy. I buy, I buy that, but also there is an aspect of it where I place a ton of judgment on it too. Um where I know now, because I'm 43 and I've been living with this and talking about this and whatever for so long. I know now that I am in the minority. That it is Are we? Yes. Not necessarily in the minority about um like not liking the sounds, but the minority of of feeling exactly like what you were talking about with the nails, the filing the nails. Like there's some sort of feeling of like you are doing a wrong thing. It feels gross to like it was I was feeling like it was gross. Okay. So I have absolutely no feeling about somebody filing their nails. In fact, what if they were sitting there clipping their nails? Okay, clipping your nails is a little bit different is different for sure. Okay. But filing your nails, I have like I would actually kind of like that. I would enjoy it. If somebody, if some woman was, was filing your nails, like to me, that is on a spectrum of uh anywhere from comforting like a mother to kind of attractive. Like I like it. It's kind of sexy.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Oh God, not at all. Uh no, but my this is exactly my point. This is exactly my point. I'm just picturing right now a bunch of people coming into our group on Sunday and then all of a sudden pulling out nail five emery boards and eating. I would leave. And eating. Yeah, I would and eating with their mouth open. I would I'd be like, you all, I'm out.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

No, but this is exactly my point that there is they when somebody is chewing with their mouth open, they are doing nothing wrong. Correct. But that woman this morning was doing nothing wrong. And that woman this morning was doing nothing wrong. But I have a feeling as if they are. If they're chewing with their mouth open, there is there's an indignation that I get, right? Which is completely unfair to the person who's chewing with their mouth open because there is no reason to be indignant. It is completely just a manners issue, right? And manners are totally cultural, and yes, they are instinctive cultural things to um codify other uh behaviors, you know, to um codify behaviors that are um beneficial or non-benficial. I understand how why culture has that, but sometimes it's also simply to denote different classes or or even just denote that you're part of our culture and not part of the other culture or whatever, which is fine as well. But my point is there's nothing wrong with it. They're not doing anything wrong. And that's the same thing. So I just think that's really interesting that I have absolutely no problem with what you described. That's why I got so excited about it because I can feel inside me, I recognize what you're talking about and I don't have the feeling for it. But if I think about somebody shooting with their mouth open, then I do.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Yeah. Do you want to know other things that really bug you? Yeah, I really do. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Um, so another and it was all happening this morning in the waiting room. So I had to take my mother-in-law to the eye doctor. She has a uh there's a retinal issue. And all of a sudden, like within days, she started losing sight in one of her eyes. Ah, that sucks. Sorry, Nancy. Yeah, they think they can um they feel real positive that they may be able to just treat this with injections. So um, but anyway, we decided it wouldn't be good for her to drive herself to an eye doctor appointment. I get that and then get dilated and then so any, okay. That does that none of that matters for the conversation. Except that that's glad you said it. But that's how I ended up there. So um, and then I and then I had to sit there for an hour and a half and just observe.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Yeah. And and No, you didn't. You could have gotten on your phone and scrolled social media like a normal person. I don't have social media.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

So, um, and that's mindless. It's much better to sit there and judge people.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Psycho, just sitting there by yourself. I got coffee.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

I walked around a little bit, uh I looked out the window, um, and I tried to make people feel uncomfortable. Good. No, that's not true. But all right. So um, but like all of these things were hitting, and again, I'm gonna take this as an opportunity to improve myself, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

That it's always opportunity. That's right. Right. That's one thing I I do in the morning, or I try to do, I try to do in the morning is thank God for the opportunities to better myself.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

That means all the things that I did wrong that I failed myself in, those are now opportunities. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

Well, the only thing where I can just do with history is learn from it. You can't you can deny it. I guess you could do that too. Right. Um, but you can't go back and fix it. Yeah. That's true. Not yet. Or relive it.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Not yet.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

You never will be able to. Anyway, um, so the other one is um if I don't mind if you're a smoker.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

I mind if you're on the other side of the room and I can smell you.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Right. That uh I've got I've got a uh a problem there. Also, that's clearly because of my childhood, though.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

Yeah, I can s like I can smell it. Um which is interesting because there was a short period of time where I was a smoker.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I was gonna say it's interesting because you're still a cigar smoker.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Smoke cigars, yeah. Um yeah. But but if I'm if I'm hanging out at Big Star uh and I come home, I do strip down in the garage.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

No, I get that.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah, go inside and shower.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yeah, because you can't stand the stale smell. I don't want to see that smoke on it.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

And and then what makes it worse is if you try to cover it with uh cologna perfume. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

So that's something else uh that bothers me. Um it another thing that bothers me when you're in public like that and it's all random people, is when you decide that the best thing that you can do is talk real loud so that other people will begin to acknowledge you.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

So how about the thing that just started?

SPEAKER_04 13:33

This is so much fun. People are probably listening thinking, oh my God.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

How about the thing that just started, I think like 10, 12 years ago for the first time. I rem I'll never forget the day that I saw it in the airport. Was a woman who was watching something on her phone at full volume with no headphones. The first time that ever, I know it's cliche now, but I'll never forget the first time I texted Krista.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

I I talked about it for like days afterward. I was like, this is, I have just seen the the actual harbinger of the destruction of our civilized society. Like I am seeing the the sinews of Western civilization come apart here. Yeah. Because I just saw this woman watch this thing. And I thought at first, I thought when she was doing it, I thought um that she was on some sort of like like I don't remember how long ago it was, but I was I I thought it was FaceTime. I thought it was some sort of video conference that she was having. And I still thought, like, why are you doing that without headphones? And then I realized she's just watching a TV show, like in full volume. Yeah. It's crazy. But now it's just everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

It's so funny because I was sitting on my front porch earlier this week with a friend smoking a cigar.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

And this woman went walking by and she had her phone on full volume, listening, I would assume, listen to a podcast. Yeah. And we didn't, like, we didn't stop. He just said um earbuds. Yeah. Like, you know, and then we just kept talking. But I knew exactly what he meant. That's exactly what you're talking about. All right. So all of this to say this, this these are not these other people's problems. It's my problem. Oh, there's some of them their problem. Well, it makes me happy to think that at the at the moment. Um, and because we judge people based on our expectations, not theirs. Sure. Right. All all judgments are based on what my expectations are, not your own expectations. Yeah, obviously. And so if we can come to terms with that, maybe, maybe I'll be less judgy. Um, I'm trying. I'm working on it. Okay, so here's the thing. This is, and this is a segue. Um, it what what makes it even more ironic is the projects that I'm working on. Right. Um, the one that um Caroline right now is doing the final edit for me is the uh one that I uh have entitled Walking on Common Ground. You see what I did there? Mm-hmm. Okay. And um and it's so funny because it's talking about being able to overcome differences and um and be in communion. Thank you, Peter Rollins, for that. But being in communion with people who are different than you. And then I sit in an office after I just finished writing that for took took me a better part of a year.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

And then I'm sitting in the office being all judgy, silently judgy, but you wouldn't be writing it or considering it if it wasn't something that you wanted to work on for yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

So that's something that's gonna uh come out. I created a um uh an author page on Amazon. Oh, good. Yeah. So you can go into Amazon and type in it's my full, it's not the S, but Jeffrey Strezov. Okay. And that's what pulls them up. I because I have a stepbrother, and we have the same, we're both Jeff Strezov. And so I was trying to sort of differentiate because we spelled the Jeffrey different.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Got it. Just in case. Yeah. Um just in case he becomes an author also. Maybe. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

So so that uh um walking on common ground, the other one that I just finished and got published this week. It it sounds like uh all of a sudden I just sat down and wrote all these things in like three months, but the fact of the matter is they've all been in pro uh the other one I is just a revision of something I actually wrote with Larry Ward eight years ago, the leadership one. Um and uh and I took what felt like a textbook originally and um I added a parable to it and tried to really turn it into more of a um give it a narrative flow.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Okay. So um Is that the one I bought that I haven't read yet? No.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Uh-uh. That's the third project. Oh and that that that project actually has led to two more projects that I'm working on right now that I'm gonna have to stop because I don't, I can't I feel like I can't even talk right now um without second guessing what I'm saying or not even saying with what I believe with much conviction, um, or saying anything with much conviction because I've been spending so much time in my head thinking about things. Yeah. But that one is called um um the gift of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

And what what um what that one is is going back and looking at the uh the history of the early Christian church, the early Christian movement, and the development of Christian theology, and how um my basic claim is that built right into our DNA is the ability to engage with um culture and um and to hold our beliefs um somewhat loosely, that yes, I believe this, and and I I try to draw a distinction between um certainty and conviction, and that you should have convictions, um, but but but you should also then hold them with, but I could be wrong. And uh and then so that then led me to well, another project that began earlier this year in the spring, and they're there, I'm seeing this is where I'm getting like what happened when. Um but w is this one I'm writing right now, um what's that what what would you say is the difference between uh certainty and conviction? Um conviction to me, where I would delineate is certainty leaves no room for conversation. Conviction is something that I can live by um but I can um but I can still be open to the idea that I might be wrong. Okay Does that make sense? So okay, so like for example, um silly one. Let's go back to the conversation we had we're how we started this conversation about um being judgmental.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

I am certain that I am judgmental.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Okay. Um and when I'm sitting there in that moment judging someone for uh let's say say you're at a restaurant and someone at the table next to you is eating and they're making a lot, a lot of mouth sounds, right? And um and you you believe in that moment that that's that that's disgusting and it's wrong. Right? Like how could they do that in public? Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

And they know what they can, they know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Yeah, right. And you get very but you you may live your life in a certain way that that that that that is a conviction of yours that that it to be if you're going to be in in public and you're going to be proper, you're going to learn how to chew with your mouth closed. Right. But at the end of the day, what you do realize, like we like sort of how we where we got around to, you do realize that um that that's really has a lot to do with your upbringing. That's a cultural thing. It's a cultural thing. Yeah, right. And so it's a conviction of yours. But you don't have to demand that everyone align with it. Certainty demands that everyone is in agreement with what I believe. Conviction is allows me to live according to what I believe, but knowing that it may not be the ultimate way that everyone should. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 21:28

All right. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

And and and so I think I do, I mean, obviously I get to write about it, and it's it's it's not that long, it's only 166 pages. Um, but I I think I do a better job of of laying it out in 166 pages than I'm going to here in in like a little bit of a conversation. But then real quick, so then that led me to um working on this other project that I'm trying to put um, which is called The Bible I Thought I Knew. And um because I introduced this idea in the first one, uh it's not an idea, it it's in there. Um and I'm not I'm not unique in in in pointing this out and identifying it. The the um the conflict between Paul and James. Yeah. Right. Um and so like when when Paul is writing about these these horrible people that are coming behind him and trying to undo what he's been teaching, yeah, he's talking about people that were sent by James from Jerusalem. Yeah. All right. And then and then you read the book of Acts and you can see the conflict. The other thing though that happens is that uh Peter is a great example of what happens when you have two friends that vehemently disagree and you're caught in the middle. Um, and so that's Peter. And so, um, and we see Peter, Peter's opinions begin to change as well as he's exposed to this. Um and so that's kind of where I'm where I head with that. But as I started talking about that, it got me into well, maybe I should spend some time exploring further um how the Bible may not actually be what we've been taught it is, right? Because I myself went from growing up in a Christian home where I really didn't know too much other than what my mom and my mom and my grandfather taught me, and going through confirmation and kind of paying attention in middle school, but not really. Um, and um, and then becoming a self-proclaimed agnostic because I could never get to the point where I didn't believe that there was something, to then all of a sudden believing um in the Jesus story, and um, and I became I mean, I would describe myself as a fundamentalist. Right? Because like all of a sudden, yeah, and I just I just became like, and where I was living at the time, that was what Christianity was for me.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Well, it's har it's hard to come to to quote unquote come to a faith and not do it initially at least as a true believer. Yeah. I mean, uh how else would you do it?

SPEAKER_04 24:03

You know yeah. And so I mean, I was a I was like the Bible's very clear about that type of guy, right? And um, but then I went to seminary and um and little cracks began to appear in um in my as they do for a lot of people who go to seminary. Yeah, but well, and it was because I was taught like how I was taught like inductive Bible study, and I was and I and I began to learn about the Greek and and uh the Hebrew, and I began to study the cultures, you know, both the ancient Jewish cultures as well as the Greco-Roman cultures. I began to study even like the geography of the area and how that the impact that that would have. I began to study other religions around, you know, and all of that stuff. And then I realized that I had I had become an like my pro my my way of approaching scripture had become an academic reductionism.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

Right. And then uh I began to You mean the proper way to look at it? Sure, absolutely. But then I began to realize that maybe there's a way to do, to not give up the intellectual, but also sort of reconnect with the spiritual. Uh-huh. And so I began to look at how do how does Jesus how is Jesus portrayed in the gospels as reading the Bible? Uh-huh. Right? Because I I don't think we can say with any, or not reading the Bible, but engaging with the scriptures. Again, because of the the academic reductionism, I can't now with any certainty say that that's what Jesus did. But what I can say with certainty is that's what they taught us in those gospel stories about Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

Okay. Um, how did Paul how did Paul engage with the scriptures? Yeah. Um, I mean, Paul, for God's sake, Paul calls Jesus, like Paul says Jesus is the rock that the Israelites got water out of. Okay, that doesn't seem literal to me. Right. And so I began to open up myself to maybe it's not a literal reading. And maybe I need to ask more questions. Maybe I need to sort of dig behind the stories and start asking myself questions like what were they thinking? What did they, you know, what were they feeling in those moments? Is there some way that I can see myself in there? Is there is there any parallels with the culture that I'm living in? Um, and so all of a sudden it began to become alive to me. And then I had this moment where I'm sitting in uh Jerusalem and I'm on the temple steps and I look across and I see uh and I'm flipping through Matthew and I get to the part where Jesus starts talking about how people are like whitewashed tombs. And I look across, I think it's called the Kidron Valley, and I get some of my my valleys mixed up. But they got a lot of them over there. Yeah, there's several. They're all valleys and mounts. Yeah. Uh and waddies. Desert. And um, and so I looked, and there, you know what's all over the side of um the Mount of Olives? Graffiti. Tombs. Oh, okay. Ancient, ancient, ancient tombs. Yeah, yeah. Um and so uh I was like, Jesus is he's engaged in sort of metaphor and and um and allegory and and all the sure. And one of the things that I also noticed is how infrequent Jesus actually quotes scripture, but when he does, it's usually to then say, but but what but but this, right? And so even when he like he's not just like throwing out scripture at people, all right. So then sorry, I'm talking a lot. No, so then um it wasn't until years later, and I and I want to be clear on this because I think I was like I again I'm very I want to make sure that I'm being um honest with people because I also do get my own timelines mixed up. Yeah, but I do realize I didn't I didn't have the term for what I was starting to engage in um until I came across so then I began to study Midrash. Um and then it was when I came across Midrash Agata that I realized that actually I had stumbled into a very ancient Jewish practice that set me right in with the New Testament authors. And I felt justified in what I was doing, and I didn't feel like I was an apostate anymore. Um, some people might say, actually, Jeff, you are um because I'm no longer a fundamentalist.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Um to be clear, or to be fair, uh-huh, uh uh many progressive Christians would consider fundamentalists apostates also. Oh, yeah, we're gonna point fingers at each other. Yeah, because they they uh many progressive Christians would say the Bible is very clear that and and what I try to get away from is I don't want anyone pointing fingers at each other.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

Whether you are uh a fundamentalist or you're progressive, do not use the phrase the Bible's very clear about that. Because the moment you do, I think that you've set yourself up for failure. Yeah. Um and uh okay, so I began to work on this project called The Bible I Thought I Knew. And I'm and I'm working through that.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

And um Is this is this integrated with or this is this part of the I think it comes off of the one that you just bought.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

I think it comes off the one you just bought. So so currently I've got about this one's about 135 pages long, so it's a little bit shorter. That's about right for a book. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to keep them short. The problem is the next one short books. The next one um becomes a little bit longer. Um and uh That I'm excited about the uh That's the one I sent you just the introduction to.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

Did I have the outline with it?

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah. Did you see how long that outline was? Yeah, I because I thought that was all the introduction and then I got down to it.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

Like, did you see, did you get down to like where I have part five? I mean I didn't paragraph thirty two. Yeah, I didn't read three.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

I mean chapter thirty two. Yeah. So anyway. That'll be good.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

That'll be a tome. It's it's I I don't want it to be I don't want it to be um like a uh A th like a theological book per se. And so the way I've started writing it, um, let me see if I can pull it up because again, I I get to where I'm like, oh, that's yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Yeah. I I I have to say I'm excited about the um the final version of the walking on comic ground because I've I read um you know, I've read about half of the original transcript or whatever you want to call that. I don't know what you call that manuscript. Yeah. Uh that you said to throw away because um you changed it all. Um but I really liked it because it's it has a lot of like your journal entries and stuff from your it's all that's still that it's that is still all in there.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

I really like that. There was some um there was just some uh um linguistic problems. Sure. Like because I had used the journal and then reflected, I had ten, I had past and present tense mixed, yeah, and I needed to fix that. Sure. Um and then also I do this thing where I would say it or that, and it's fine if we're having a conversation, but when you're writing, sometimes what is just what is it or that actually referring back to? And so I had to go back and kind of lay that out a little bit. Yeah. And also at one point, like I wrote something and it seemed like I was saying one thing because of my word order, and it was actually absolutely anti the opposite of what I was trying to say. Yeah, I and so the first editor she asked me, Are you trying to say this? And I was like, Oh gosh, no.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Um, so I just it was very cool because I um have it like made me want to go backpacking.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

Hey, so I'm planning on a uh two-week trip, the leaving Monday after Easter if you want to go. You want to go on a two-week trip with me?

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Sounds that sounds really interesting, Jeff.

unknown 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:47

Is that your nice way of saying no? Um would you want to do would you want to do an overnighter with me? I think that um I could I have enough gear that I can outfit you.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Well, that's that would be that would be fun, actually. Yeah. I think, but um, my wife would be so incredibly jealous. I think um that I'd want to go like maybe we could do like family thing or something.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

We could. What we could do is um to get you guys sort of he is the backpacker. Okay, like she's to get you introduced to it, um, is we could we could as families um go up to Big South Fork and tent camp, like set up a base camp. Uh-huh. And then backpack out from there. Do some backpacking out, like even if it's just an overnight. And that those that didn't want to do overnight could stay at the base camp. That sounds funny.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

Everyone else could go out. That sounds fun, actually. Yeah. That sounds really fun. So it would not kidding. I'll talk to Chris about that. Uh Ellis has said that he really wants to go backpacking. So Yeah, so that's good.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

What do we got? So so the other thing, just because I'm, you know, we're talking about sharing the projects. Yeah. Um, so the other thing is um so after I wrote uh after I started writing, because it's not finished. Um in fact I had to go back and restart a few things, but when I started writing um uh The Bible, I thought I knew.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Right. Okay, in that one, I share my own um journey of what I just talked about, like this idea of going from fundamentalism to uh um academic reductionism to what now I understand to be Midrashagata.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Right. And I talk about how that how I went through that. And then I walk people through that. And we look at and then and so, but the reason I wrote that one was because I had been asked in the spring, how do I read the Bible? And so I began to actually think about how do I read the Bible, and I began to write these things down. And then uh I read um The Evolution of God and how uh how Jesus became God, yeah, those two books. Uh-huh. And and they're both well written and they're both uh very intelligent people. Um, but where I differ is I don't think that just because we see an evolution of God or the evolution of Jesus going from uh backwater Jewish rabbi to the universal Christ, that that somehow invalidates what I think is what we're seeing is an evolution of understanding of those things. Uh and but that just because the understanding of God evolves doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Just because Jesus, the understanding of Jesus evolves doesn't somehow uh make the stories of Jesus um in fact, I find it more intriguing and I find it more engaging that way. And so I began to talk about those things, and then I I said, well, then I was like, well, what if I put together a 10-week Bible study on how we see um sort of this evolution within um within the the scriptures? And so I put together a 10-week study guide, and then I use that as an outline for this. But in that, I also talked about the responsibility that we have because I talked about how like the language that's used to describe God is is it's culturally influenced.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:17

Right. It there's are you gonna talk about doing this?

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Are you gonna talk about continuing revelation? Yes. Evolving revelation. Yes. Yeah, very good. I do.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

And um and that we have a responsibility today to consider what we know and uh reframe. Uh-huh. Right. And uh and and it doesn't somehow make us smarter, it just it just means that we have to adapt. Right. So I'm not like saying, oh, the ancient cultures were dumb. Um, they were using what they had to understand, and now we have different understandings, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:53

So do you see this as a progression or do you see it as uh like like do you do you see um the the continuing uh evolution of the perception of God, however you want to say it, as a as an upward climb or more of like a flat circle, if that makes sense, where we're describing it in different ways, but none are better than the other.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

I think at the time it's exactly what you needed. And that there was, they were, they were able to convey their understanding at the time with what they had. Um, and I so I wouldn't put a value on it and say this one's better, but I would say that that sometimes they become antiquated. Okay, but so like for example, our understanding of how the universe works is is different than it would have been when the author of Genesis is talking about the creation story. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. But they're using, they're using the Enuma Elish. They're using all of these other creation stories from all these other different cultures around them, and they're and they're just sort of reframing it. And like today we understand uh that uh the earth isn't flat, that it doesn't sit on a pedestal, that um that there's not this firmament that covers us that holds the waters back, right? And then every now and then God opens it up and some water comes through. We we have a we through physics and and things, like we have a different understanding of how the universe works.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Um the what uh had uh question has had um uh observation and science, science in particular, that that process has bumped up against religion, the religious explanation has failed in the what question.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Because the religious explanation continues to try to attack. I don't I don't I don't know that I would agree. I okay, so they're but they're set up in a way that, well, okay, how many times have you heard people say that you can't believe in evolution because the Bible's very clear about the the six-day creation?

SPEAKER_03 38:13

So I I understand that that's a that is something that people would say. Yep. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

I haven't had a lot of experience with that. I grew up with people who said that like God created God created evolution, and that's fine. Yeah, absolutely right. Um but what I'm saying is the very fact of the evolutionary process coming into coming being developed as a as a theory when it has that was a new idea and it came up against the the religious, any kind of religious framework for how humans existed, but the religious framework failed in the what question.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

It needed to change, it needed to adapt with new information that you get. Yeah, that's what it says. But it's but it but here's what I'm here here's what I'm getting at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

You've got you've got the the the who, what, why, when, how questions. These are these are the questions. Okay in my estimation, the religious question, the religious interpretation of existence has retreated, has had to retreat over and over and over again until it now only exists within the why question. That is its domain now. Why are we here? Why do I, you know, where is the meaning? Where is right? The what, the where, who, and how which is what I I think is that. Religion has lost all that ground, but it but it used to dominate.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

I'm trying to I'm trying to synthesize that. Okay. Okay. Um because I think that we have to look to physics and evolutionary biology to be able to figure that out. Right. So that led to the next work. Right. Cause I because I basically say that we have this responsibility to continue to try to figure out how we communicate um with God in a world that has gone beyond the language of the Bible. And um and I'm and I feel like we are constantly trying to defend things that we should not be even trying to defend anymore. Like at some point you just have to say that's in the like I can't defend that. And so um so how do I retain and adapt and accept? Right. So, like, for example, one of the things I'm working on right now, I'm working out, actually, I I I didn't sleep last night. I was up for like four I slept for like four hours. Um because I'm I am still still see, this is what happens to me. Um this is why I think I'm annoying to people. Um I'm still working through the Sam Harris book in my mind on free will. And um and if I accept predeterminism, what does that mean? How how can I how can I um fit that in with what I with what I believe now? And and I'm actually working I'm actually starting to work that out. Um because I think that it I think I think that it is uh disingenuine, disingenuous, uh I think it's not faithful to just dismiss what he has to say as he's wrong because he's not. There's too much in what he says to just dismiss it. There's too much in uh um uh physics to just dismiss it. There's too much in um geography in in um uh not geography in um what's it called? Geology to just uh dismiss carbon dating, right? Like there's too much in evolutionary biology to just dismiss it. Now I do think that the further you back go back, you really have to always say, it seems to me, it seems to me. Because right, I mean I'm still not convinced about the whole single cell thing. Um the the I think that I think that that takes just as much faith to say something like that than than to say that there's something bigger. Um but that's just my opinion. Um and for some, that's an easier step of faith than to believe in God, the way that God's been presented. That's the caveat, I think. So with that being said, I think that the next logical progression is the next project I'm working on, which is called God as energy. And that's the one that I shared with you, the outline. Because if I understand God as energy, that means, can I run through the outline real quick? Okay, so part one, you have to talk about the evolution of God language and how the Bible talks about God and why it kept changing, why it keeps changing. Paul and the Stoic Influence, uh, it would be chapter two, chapter three, the logos goes cosmic, chapter four, Justin Martyr and the Seeds of the Word, chapter five, modern voices in ancient conversations. And that's where I would introduce like Richard Rohr, Paul Tillock, Jordan Peterson, um, the transcendental properties of being, and why I think that why I think I can actually um make the claim that they're all actually describing the same thing. Um, and then the philosophical foundation, so go to the Greeks again and talk about Socrates, Plato, Aristotle on what it means to be good a little further uh into the transcendentals. Then you get to chapter seven where you want to talk about Aquinas and how Aquinas tries this Christian integration at first, um, then go back to the Stoic virtues. I think because if you're going to talk about virtues as far as the transcendentals, you have to go back and talk about the Stoic virtues. But then I think it by the time you get to part three, you're talking about the scientific turn, what physics tell us about reality. And then I by the time I get to chapter 10, I'm starting to suggest what if God is energy? And then if God is that energy, is there a moral question? Like, how do we begin to develop morality from the first is the what? So what if God is this, not Sky Daddy? Right? What if, what if it's actually the the ground of being, like Tillik would talk about, right? Um, what if there is some truth to that built within, because if we're all if we're if we're energy, then that then somehow built within us is these virtues, right? The the unit the the um the beauty, uh justice, and truth that that um Jordan Peterson talks about, right? Um and then then energy and flourishing. What does it mean to flourish, which we talked about two weeks ago in Sunday school? Um and uh and then you can then you get into part four where you talk about what reimagining Christianity is. I get it in car. That's what flourishing means. That is not what that means. Not the way I'm presenting. That's it. No. Yep. No, that's a very Western um way of understanding flourishing. The incarnation as pattern recognition, the spirit is ongoing principle. What happens then to prayer? How do you like what does prayer mean? What is salvation without transaction? Is there a better way to understand what is it, what how then what how do we understand the cross? Um, and then living in these questions. So, what about Jesus? What about the Bible? What about other religions? What about life after death, the preferred and the not preferred, which is then I'm borrowing that language more from Stoicism?

SPEAKER_03 46:22

The downstairs, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Then, no, I don't believe in that. Um, practical implications, right? How do you rethink worship? Um, how do we rethink mission? How do we rethink flourishing again, going back to flourishing? How do we rethink certainty? Part seven, this is getting ridiculous. But uh, how then can we have conversations with atheist friends, people that don't believe like us, people who have different religions, right? And um, and that's where I have this chapter that I call Marcus and the question of meaning. Anybody want to guess who Marcus is? And then the fun I didn't do a real good job of of hiding that. Um the the fundamental Christian who couldn't explain, and I'm gonna share a story about something that that also really bothered me. Um, word salad bothers me. Uh, the convincing argument that doesn't exist, what we're actually disagreeing about. And then part eight, if if I if I really want to fully embrace this idea, what sermon might I preach? The question is, have I already preached it? Um and then um the questions that that would raise, and then the answers that I'm gonna try, like if if I believe all of this, what am I trying to live into? And then I think it's important to say, well, what do you mean when you say God then? And um and are there like how do you live with open questions? And um and then I'll also offer some recommended reading, like I mentioned a few today. But then I also think that it's disingenuous if you don't address some common objections and responses to those. Um, and then I might even have some discussion questions if anybody wants to do it as a book study. So this would be a long one.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

That's gonna be a long one.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

It's gonna be a long one, and I um I am holding out hope that I can have it done a year from now. We'll see. But I do know that right now I need a mental break because um, like I said, I can't even talk about I can't even right now talk about belief. Um I I b believe I I mean I have beliefs. Um but then I want to talk about free will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Yeah, sure, of course.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

So anyway. I talked a lot today, I'm sorry. Don't apologize, it's good. Yeah. So what are your thoughts? I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you take uh some shots at it to to wrap us up.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Um here's where I am right now. Uh I have the same general outlook about free will as I do about God at this point, which is I don't believe in either one of them. Uh and I live my life as if I do. And I don't know that that's really a choice, but I don't care. That doesn't I can't I can't live expecting to hold all of the correct perspectives in my mind right in front of my eyes at all times, so that when I do something, I'm thinking in my mind, yes, but I'm doing it because of this, because I believe this thing, and also, but not like that, like this, right? I can't hold all of those at the same time that I'm doing. And so we're speaking. I just live as if it's and I'm I'm I'm stealing that from Jordan Peterson. That's what he has always said. I live my life as if I believe in God.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

You don't have to how many times have you said it?

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah. It's yours now. It's mine. Yep. Um, so you know, like um, it's funny. Uh we had some friends in uh month ago. When was it? It might have been a year ago now. Jeez, it's been that long. Anyway, um, friends in town from California, and uh uh he's Catholic, and um we talk about that, and um he um knew that I was saying that I'm probably an atheist and whatever you know. We talked about it, and he's cool. And he came in the the room in the uh morning in the living room and I had um worship music on. And um he walked in and was like, what the hell, dude? He's like, This is this is hilarious music for an atheist. And I was like, I like it. Yeah, I like I like worshiping. I like it. You know, like I want some real worship music. Yeah, you know? And uh when I say real, I mean anything from the nineties and the early 2000s because that's that's the correct type of worship. Worship music. Oh yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah, Crowder. Um Chris Tomlin. Chris Tomlin, yeah, definitely. Sure. Rich Mullins. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:13

Yeah. Um back when I back when I was a youth minister.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Yeah, absolutely. You would have been a youth minister for me.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

That would have been, yeah, absolutely. Because you're 10 years older than me. That it would have been exactly the right time.

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Um some Michael W. Smith, some Stephen Curtis Chapman. It's good stuff, man. Yeah. You did good with the first two. The other ones are a little too uh for me. No, that's great. Yeah. Some news boys, get some PC talk in there. Oh, yeah. I remember Skillet. I was not into it because I was not into heavy metal at the time. Sure. Um but uh what what's the other one? The POD? POD. I was just thinking about POD. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

They tried to do a crossover.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Uh-huh. And then and then, of course, going back a little bit earlier than that was Petra. Yeah. You never got into them? No. No. How about Striper? I don't know if it's Striper.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

The further back you go, I think they tried too hard to make everything rhyme in their lyrics. Sure. And eventually people stopped worrying about it. Just always tell Christian music. Always. Because it's not quite as good and it has only has four chords.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Something about it that you can always, even if it's not, even if it's not billing itself as Christian music, you turn it on, you go, oh no, this is Christian music. Yeah. It's the Christian music industry. Matt Redman. Weird. But anyway. Okay, so that's where I no, no, no. That's where, so that's like I am very interested in reading this book.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

Which one?

SPEAKER_03 52:31

The one that you're well, all of them. But I mean the one that you're just talking about. Um But you asked my thoughts, that's where I am. Okay. At this point in my life, that's where I am.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

What I would like, what I would like is you to read them and then we can discuss it here. Absolutely. Because I'm hoping so here's the thing, right? And this is the last thing I'll say about it, and then we'll uh we'll go to the closing music. But um I've been thinking several years ago, like 20 something years ago, I had an opportunity to uh I was at a I was at a festival and um Rob Bell was was there, and he wasn't even the keynote speaker. Like he hadn't become he hadn't become Rob Bell yet, right? And um, and it was one of these deals where he was on a he was in a small tent, uh not on the main stage. Yeah. And you could go in there and uh like a certain time, they didn't even have chairs, you just sat in the grass and you listened to him. And uh and someone asked him, When did you know that it was time for you to do a church plant? And um, and his response I found very interesting, and I and I spent a lot of time thinking about it. He said, When I know when I no longer cared whether or not it would be successful. Right. So it had to do more with the um the way I understood it, it had more to do with the the the project itself is more important than whether or not it uh it whether or not we have 10,000 people in worship, right? Whether or not we have a big building. Sure. What we're trying to do here is what's important.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

And um and so I've been writing on and off for uh well since I was in college. And uh and and what I usually do is I'll write and then I'll throw it away, delete it because I've always thought nobody nobody wants to read that. There's it's not it's not worth anything reading. What I'm doing right now, um, it is available on Amazon and I want people to read it. Not because I want to make money at it. Um I have a full-time job. Um but because I think that the the message, what's being said in there is something that we need to be talking about. Um and I am just I am just what taking I'm just taking what others have a conversation that others have already started, right? So like Peter N's and the Sin of Certainty, um, Peter Rollins and the difference between community and communion. Um, you know, the uh um the books I referenced earlier, The Evolution of God, um, when uh you know how did Jesus become Christ, or how did Jesus become God? I think it was the title of the book. Like I'm just taking those and I'm saying, I'm I'm trying my mind trying to put this all together and come up with some logical next steps. Um I want people to read it. And um and so it I would encourage, I would hope that anyone that knows me, that that is listening, um, that you take the time to find it on Amazon and read it. And then uh, like I said, if nothing else, when you're done with it, give it to somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

No, no, no. No. Tell somebody, buy another copy for somebody else. Yeah. Well, the money, the the money can be you can be a Kami Pinko if you want to. I'm gonna be your uh your capitalist buddy.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

I will say that the money paid. The money is going right back into the project, right? So this whole thing did be this whole the book that you just bought is the result of all of my research putting together a 90-minute presentation, a 90-minute event.

SPEAKER_03 56:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Which um I think will be ready to have the event in January.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

Yeah, that'll be cool.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

So I think that'll be great. There's some there's some things that we're trying to do with AI to get it uh a little more um engaging. Um and then uh holograms. Is it gonna be holograms?

SPEAKER_03 56:26

No, you gotta have holograms, holographic Tupac.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

We're we're gonna have um we're gonna have James the uh just, uh Paul of Tarsus, and Peter of um of uh Capernaum on video sharing their opinions about stuff. Oh my gosh. Back from the dead. Yeah, it'll be fun. Yeah, that'll be fun. So all right. Thank you for letting me do that. Yeah, it's great. Um all right. And if anybody has any uh things that they want to argue with me about, you can email me.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

Yeah, you can argue with him. Keep your criticisms of me to yourself. Yeah. Thanks. All right.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.