What If Wisdom At Creation Was A Woman?

When every headline demands a side, what if we started with a question? We sit down as a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist to explore how creation stories frame our deepest assumptions about chaos, order, and the feminine. From Genesis’ hovering spirit over the deep to the Babylonian Enuma Elish’s splitting of Tiamat, we trace how cultures turn raw potential into a livable world—and how those choices shape what we call sacred.

We dig into wisdom literature where Sophia stands at the crossroads, calling out as a feminine presence at creation, and we ask whether later tradition muted that voice. Along the way we unpack Israel’s movement from polytheism around them to henotheism and finally monotheism, probing the famous warning against offerings to the “Queen of Heaven.” Is that a broad rejection of rival cults or a targeted push against feminine divinity? We don’t settle for easy answers. We test each other’s assumptions, connect myth to psychology, and debate whether religion should explain the unknown or protect the space where wonder still breathes.

If you care about theology, mythology, philosophy, or simply how to argue well without losing a friend, this conversation is a map. Expect spirited debate on logos and chaos, thoughtful comparisons of ancient texts, and practical takeaways for making room for mystery in a hyper-rational age. Subscribe, share with someone who sees the world differently than you do, and leave a review telling us: where do you find common ground between order and the unknown?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

But we're friends.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

Marker 4

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Now that we've talked for 30 minutes. Now that we've gotten our powder wet. Yep. So um last night we wrapped up a uh It's all personal stuff, so nobody's gonna hear it. Yeah. Last night we wrapped up a study that we've been doing. Um I've mentioned it, but it just to give it some context. Earlier this year, um, like back in the spring, I was asked if I would be able if I would be willing to share how how I read the Bible. And so that that led to um all kinds of projects. And um you said the correct way. Yeah. Next. Yep. Yeah, it was really short conversation. The uh um, so that led to the um the the book that Caroline right now is editing. Um The Bible I thought I knew. But anyway, um, which is gonna end up being the study in the spring, but that's all beside the point. So so what we were talking about, what we've what we've looked at this um this last nine, 10, 8, whatever weeks was mid-rash and how how we got there and and what kind of good, what kind of what are good questions to ask and things like that. So last night we went back and we reread Genesis, the first creation story, not the second one. And then um I read from the Enuma Elish, which is the Babylonian creation story. Are you familiar with it?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

I am I I I mean I couldn't quote it, but I am familiar with it.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

It's it's longer than the Genesis story. But um so trying to remember the goddess's name. But basically the story is that Marduk tears this goddess Tiamat? Tiamat in half.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

That's his mother.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

I don't I I don't remember that part, but I do remember he like tears this woman in half, like this this female god in half.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

And puts the very much like the yeah, very much like the um like the Greek origin um creation stories, there are uh things that come prior to the gods. And Tiamat is is um like it's almost like its existence itself prior to the god gods. And uh, and so anyway, in Greek in Greek mythology, you've got the titans, yeah, and Kronos and all of that that are um prior to the gods. The gods take over, and this is a similar thing. Marduk gets born and then yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

And so he he takes half of her and puts her up and then explains to the other gods that that half of her is to hold back her waters. Yeah. And then the other half becomes the the ground, right? Or whatever. And then and so anyway, uh, and the point was we were comparing it to um the Genesis story. So it was it was very interesting, but I got a uh um I got an email later in the evening, and it was it I I know enough about it to be familiar, but not enough to have an opinion.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Um and so it comes from Catherine, and uh and it's well I don't need to know anything to have an opinion, so let's go.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Well, you know, actually, um I'll I'll read you my response too, um uh which I I think should make you smile, maybe. So, okay, so the email says this when you read the Babylonian creation story, I was thinking it sounded very much like Eros, feminine slash chaos, energy, i.e., body being split open, childbirth. Okay. Which is I I think that's really interesting, and it's a it's a very interesting way to look at the narrative. Um so then she says, Where the Genesis story is from a logos, masculine slash order energy. All right. So so far I'm tracking. Right? Yep, I got it. I think it's great. I was also thinking about the connection between the character of Marduk, who later becomes a savior of the gods, because of his wise words, and Jesus in the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God. Still gotcha, still following. All right, but here's what I don't know enough about. But I'm wondering about the aversion to or conflict with the divine feminine from the ancient Hebrew perspective. All right, I don't know enough about that. Uh in fact, I just ordered a book that um Krista suggested I order called uh When When God Was a Woman. And um, because I I know, like I know it, I know about um divine feminine, I like I know that, but I haven't done enough research or study to be able to have form a good opinion about that. Um, but then she goes on to write, I know later on, maybe in the book of Judges question mark, God forbids Israel to offer sacrifices to the queen of heaven. Was the divine feminine seen as, quote, evil because it was chaotic and destructive? How would ancient Israel have conceptualized the divine feminine in contrast to logos? And I'm not sure. So my response was these are great questions, and I don't really have an answer. I recently ordered the book, When God Was a Woman, by Merlin Stone, that may shed some light. I'm hoping that it does. The book was recommended to me by Krista. I bet she has some wonderful insights. And then I wrote, maybe I will ask Lucas tomorrow when we are recording the podcast and see if he has any thoughts. And then she said, Awesome, thanks so much. So um, so basically, the way that you should read that is you are my second option. That's good. That is that is smart. Oh goodness. So anyway, uh what like what do you what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Oh, I I mean, I I think it's a fascinating subject. I um so uh first off, I would not ever presume to caricaturize um uh the entire uh like uh Semitic history um in regards to uh their uh their uh position on on the feminine and the masculine. Right. I'm not some sort of expert.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Well I have a lot of well, I will throw this out there, but I I I wanna you're gonna probably do most of the talking, and then I'm just gonna erupt. That's how this episode is gonna go. Good. Um that in the Bible, uh in the Hebrew let me let me rephrase that. In the Hebrew texts, the Hebrew w the Hebrew scriptures, um the uh the spirit of God, the ruach, um is and the wisdom is feminine. That is a tradition. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I so I I would so my initial reaction would be like, I'm not sure that there is a um a uh I forget exactly, let me go back to email. I wouldn't say that there is a uh How did she put it? I wouldn't say there's an a conflict with the divine.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

I would.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well then then I'm glad I interrupted you so that now you can continue on and explain to me why I'm um mistaken. Not wrong, just mistaken.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

No, I don't think you're mistaken. I just I I know that there is a tradition that the um there there are some Christian traditions that have um the Holy Spirit as being feminine. Um and there's a lot of um uh there there are uh some uh Hebrew traditions that have um some sort of spirit being feminine, but I do think that there is a strong strain of um being um uh of an aversion to uh to feminine uh divinity and also just the feminine in general throughout the the Hebrew scriptures, there's there's some orthodox um uh prayer that um and I don't know how you know what what strain this this falls into that um where some uh uh Orthodox sects that that l that pray, thank you God for not making me a Gentile or a woman. Um there's that that's that's kind of a side um example, but um there's a lot of uh study in uh historical study of um how the the Hebrew culture um developed that that was a rejection of um a lot of the uh the religious traditions that they were around, other Semitic traditions also, by the way, which I I think most of the the people groups in that area were Semitic. Um and they were rejecting a lot of the um you know feminine origin of the divine. Jordan Peterson talks about this actually a lot. Okay. And I think this is this it he was one that kind of um inducted me into thinking about um uh about humanity and about the divine and about existence kind of in this way, changing my perspective a little bit, at least letting me look at it in a different way. Um this is a really crude way of describing how he would describe it, but he would generally speaking describe chaos as feminine and order as masculine. And when he says chaos, even though we have a negative connotation to that term, he would not mean it negative. What he would be talking, what he talks about, and he would say this, is um chaos is um uh the oh what it now my mind's going blank. It's like um uh that which could be, it's it's outside of the border of order. Okay. It's the frontier of creation, right? The creation comes from it's the it's the origin of all that is.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

So if you connect it to the Genesis story, it is when it says that uh that there was chaos before the and then and the spirit hovered over.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

In the beginning, God created the heavens, and they see the problem is that the the the origin story, the creation story that the Hebrews had, I think comes as somewhat of a rejection of this, because it is God created the heavens and the earth. But you can kind of see remnants of it as yes, and the spirit of the God, uh the spirit of the Lord hovered over the fathoms, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Well, I definitely think that the I mean, all right, there I don't know anyone that would argue well I shouldn't say that. I believe that um the Genesis story to me obviously is written as a rejection of or a reframing of existing creation stories. So when you say that, absolutely. But I do think, right? So I just pulled it up. The earth was formless and empty and darkness covered the deep waters. That's the new living translation. But if I go to uh here in the internet, formless and void. Yeah. The earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while the wind from God swept over the face of the waters. So I would say that in the beginning, there is this idea of something existing prior to um logos.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Right. So um uh chaos can also be considered potential. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah, that's good. It's potential. It is unorganized potential.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

So I guess what I'm saying is that stands up to if you want to talk about like the poetic imagery in Genesis, I think that stands up to the scrutiny. I think that it fits. I think that that that view of it or that presentation of it fits with that theological story.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Aaron Powell, I also just think like to me, when I, and again, this is just my personal perspective on it. When I when I think about the um uh about Genesis and and the Old Testament in general, um I sit and I wonder, um uh, is this what we are left over with? Is this what we are left with? Like, for how many thousands of years was this story, did this story contain other things as well? And then what we were left with, what has come down to us is this. For instance, you can imagine in the future, I could imagine, 3,000 years in the future, um, some scenario in which the New Testament still remains, but the Apocrypha doesn't exist at all.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Oh, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

I mean, I think that that's something that the Protestants are working hard at our doing already. Right. And so you you can imagine that, you can imagine that 2,000 years from now, and then going forward, so now you're living 3,000 years from now, but a thousand years prior, that the Apocrypha stories are long gone. And so everyone knows, knows that the New Testament is this. But in reality, it's just not the case. It was it's just what the what came down to them, right? I'm imagining this is fictional, but I'm imagining. So um because it because it every what what I have realized is that most of the cradle of civilization myth stories, Greek and Mesopotamian and all of them, the gods that they worshipped, they were always descendants of something else. Like the Greeks had gods that they worshipped, they were descendants of something. They had a story about the descendants. Mesopotamians, the um Babylonians, the, you know, they they all had these these gods that they knew existed, but they were descendants of something else that came prior. That they so in a way, we talked about this before, where I'm like, I don't know how you could be a god and be subject to, right? They were all worshiping gods that were subject to, right? They were the descendants of. They were the rulers, they were all powerful, but they were they were descendants of. The Hebrew Bible doesn't have that. It's just God. God was from the beginning. There was no prior. God didn't come from anywhere, right? So what I wonder is, is that always the case in the story? Or is there some prior? So anyway, going back to the whole feminine and masculine, a couple things that we should establish right from the beginning. Uh feminine doesn't mean woman, masculine doesn't mean man, though because humans are largely bimodal, feminine mostly means woman, and masculine mostly means man. Um so what I think is interesting is that um you've got all of these traditions where the feminine is the source of the gods. And like in in um uh with Marduk, Marduk um ends up uh killing Tiamat and um and kind of uh creating the world from from that, which kind of sounds like if you could anthropomorphize the void, it kind of sounds like the Hebrew creation.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

And that's what I was suggesting earlier. You have but you that's what you'd have to do, right? Yeah. So there is this uh within within the Hebrew uh wisdom literature, yeah, of course they personify um um wisdom. Uh, I think is how it's pronounced.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Um and uh of course, wisdom is always standing at the corner and calling, right? And it's a and it's a woman.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

And one of the tr yes, and one of the traditions is that that wisdom, because I don't want to keep saying the Hebrew, um, or in Greek it's Sophia, but is present with Yahweh at creation. Yeah. And so it's the combination of Yahweh and Sophia. Uh-huh. Um, or Hochma. Um and uh okay, so I'm just thinking to myself right now logos, which comes from Greek philosophy because Philo of Alexandria, he takes this idea of the spirit and wisdom and connects, he's the one that connects it to Logos, and then Paul picks up on that and runs with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Um it I'm but if you if if you step back and you think about um Yeah, because I got a I've got an idea of forming in my head.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Go on.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So I'm gonna introduce also so um, so uh Jordan Peterson talks a lot about chaos and order and the balance between and um and the the pathology that happens if you get too far one way or the other. Um so that kind of that's I think that's really interesting. And then Tom Holland, the uh the historian, um really opened my eyes to how ancient Greeks looked at the feminine and masculine, and they did mean male and female also when they were talking about this. They I mean that's the thing. Like everyone that is an assumption, and I think that's a that's a fair I think that's fair to to talk about it like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Well the images that they created. Because I do think that it's related and female.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

I do think that it's related. I do. Um I don't think that it's somehow completely separate. We're bimodal, we're a bimodal organism, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Um so uh I think it when you're talking about in terms of creation, I think that the the idea of womb and seed, womb and seed. Um so so you talk about bimodal. I think that that's I think that obviously that's obviously I shouldn't say, but that's where the c you begin to develop a concept of creation, it's going to be something like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, because this is what you're seeing. And so the what the what Tom Holland talks about with the Greeks is that they saw the female as the direct connection to all that is mysterious, and the and that includes the gods and everything that is important in existence. Females were the they held that within them. And of course they did, right? Because they hold life. And if you think about the somebody who is not thinking about the world through a scientific method or enlightenment values or whatever, we think we've conquered this somehow, right? But if you just think about somebody who is living close to the bone, an entire world of humans who are living close to the bone, um the the uh women hold they hold the connection to everything that is uh that means anything. But they hold within themselves their I've said this, I've talked to Chris about this. They, if you think about it from this perspective, they hold within themselves the ultimate purpose. Their ultimate purpose is just who they are. They're the bringer of life. You know, you think about it from like again, somebody who's living in like 3000 BC, right? The woman holds the feminine holds the the the entire purpose uh within themselves. They don't have to do anything, they don't have to accomplish anything to be. It's like I think about it, like um uh like a superhero. Like Superman, uh Superman's identity is the fact that he's a superhero. He's not a news reporter who happens to also be a superhero. Right. And his identity is a he's a news reporter because that's what he does in the world, and he has an occupation, and that's what he you know what I mean? He's a superhero. That's his uh from the moment he exists, he he has a connection with whatever, you know. And um and so the the Greeks had this, they they had this uh society built on this concept that seems very uh it can be seen very patriarchal in our through our lens because the males did dominate, they they um uh controlled all the politics, all of the societal um functions because the males had to go out and work into the world. The females had the connection with so they were always, you know, all of the um oracles were always, if you want to say it this way, staffed by women, right? It was always female priests and, you know, because they had the connection to the mystery, right? And so I think that that it part of uh that's interesting in this whole conversation too. It's a it's another perspective. And I think that the the Hebrew tradition, by the time we recognize it, by the time we know what's going on, it's not like that. You know, the males have the um the connection to the the divine, right? Um and so I do think that it's it, but but they have all of these little um these little tidbits that I think are connected to all the other Semitic religions around them, like the Babylonians and and all of that. Because in my opinion, they they were just one of.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Well, you don't grow up in a vacuum.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Right. And yeah, that's one of the things I I talk about when I'm talking about studying the Bible is know it's important to know the other cultures, and if you can get your hands on some of their writings, and but not to yes, you can identify the similarities, but what really becomes important is identifying the differences because what makes them unique. That's what you're looking for with with within the text, I think. Okay, so a couple things. One is um she uh uh Catherine mentioned that within the scripture it talks about this idea of uh there's a specific command to not be worshiping um and it's in Jeremiah that that he talks about that the author specifically mentions the worship of the Queen of Heaven. Yep. Um and it's probably uh Ishtar. Um so but what I would say, I don't think it's a specific I don't think that it's a that they're specifically targeting feminine deity. I think what we're seeing is the development of um henotheism. Okay, so you have you you have the the cultures around them are it's polytheism, right?

SPEAKER_05 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Okay. So then within a culture, what happens is you uh you see then um a uh a um use the word evolution. I'm not sure that's the best word, but um a development. A development where you go from polytheism to henotheism. So henetheism is this idea that yes, multiple gods exist, but only one god deserves to be worshipped. Right. And so what I would say is when when you see specific things well that and then like that's in the That's kind of Babylonian. That's the Marduk thing. That's that's the Marduk thing, right? And and yeah, I mean I think I think you see that. Now you also see that um like in in the Greek culture, they have multiple gods. Now that's still polytheism because all the gods deserve some worship. Now, some will make one primary, but they still leave place for the worship of others. But in some cultures, you start to see the development of henetheism. Israel is one of those where the in, I mean, they talk about the greatest of the gods, Yahweh. Yeah. And so Yahweh comes from somewhere in this story, right? And Yahweh is becomes the greatest of the gods. And so what I what I see is not an attack on the divine on the divine feminine. I I see a no other god or goddess deserves worship. And then after they get destroyed by Babylon and Marduk wins, well, then they've got to restructure again because they either have to make Marduk the supreme, and Yahweh is another god that doesn't actually deserve to be worshipped because he's just part of the pantheon, right? Um, but what they do instead is they move into monotheism. And what they say is, well, actually, Marduk's not even really a god. Our God used you to teach us a lesson.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

So um so I I I I don't I think it I see your point, but I don't, I I will say I'm gonna stand on I act I I still don't see that perspective. I think that they were trying to distinguish themselves, not trying, because I don't think it was conscious. I don't think this is conscious, but I do see a rejection of the feminine as a rejection of as part of a greater rejection of the the cultures around them and the religions around them. I can I can understand why you come to the perspective that you have, which is um, I'm not rejecting feminine, I'm just rejecting all of it, right? In favor of my my God Yahweh.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, the one God worth worshiping.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Right. Um, but I think that it it gets pointed out enough that it's it's like um it's like um how do we tell who the good people are? Well, one of the ways is they worship feminine stuff. And so we reject feminine stuff, right? One of the ways is they do child sacrifice, so we reject child sacrifice. One of the ways is we, you know what I mean? Like, um I so I I like I said, I do, I do, I I can see how you come to your perspective, but um I am compelled that the process, it seems like the process of development in the Hebrew um Religion seemed to be part, not that it was a central part necessarily, but that it was, it seems like it was an active rejection of the feminine.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

And then once you get into um once you merge that with the Roman society, um, you know, post-Paule, I mean, then you've got I don't have any problem with the idea of it's a rejection of the the cultures around us that in order to become unique, and that's what makes us makes us quote unquote, I think you said like better or right or whatever. I don't have any problem with that. Um where I would say where where I would feel like there's a better argument for an attack on the divine feminine isn't in the isn't in the um sort it would be, well then the development of Yahweh, the understanding of Yahweh, why wasn't Yahweh feminine? And and it and that would be a more interesting conversation to me.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Oh, I to me, that seems completely expected.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

And and I and I would say that if if if you wanted to say, um, but I but I think that going to the like the passage of scripture where it says don't worship the queen of heaven, I see that as more of just a rejection of any other gods. But I will say I could be, I could it would be very interesting to to be able to track the development of Yahweh as a um masculine.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah. Well, I think so. If if you start from the position of the feminine is the connection with the mysterious, so all things mysterious, all things um divine, and the masculine is the process of uh humanity moving out into the world, the connection with the world. So like you've got that's how you have the two, the the two processes, whatever. Um, which I think is is I think that is a big reason why all of this gets rejected in our modern world because we do not value or see as legitimate the connection with the mysterious, mysterious at all. We don't we don't care about that. We don't want that, we don't think that's real. And that is and and we think that's just an excuse to control what's real, which is out in the world. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

And Ian McGuck McGillchrist would agree with you. Um and he would say that that's actually to our detriment. Because what's happened is we've allowed our left hemisphere of our brain to become the the the correct one. Yeah. And we ignore the uh right side.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah. And and I am I have become sympathetic to that view, although I am I uh I this is a different topic, but it's a big reason why I have a it's a big reason why I I have had a problem with religion or the way that it's the the whole purpose of religion in the past is I have felt that it is a bunch of statements about that which cannot be seen or proved in order to claim power over me in the here and now, which can be seen and proved. And so that has been my uh position that I've had in the past that has made me re you know want to reject the whole thing. Yeah. I'm becoming more sympathetic to the idea that in reality I do have I just don't want anybody else telling me what to do. But anyway, that's just my anti-authoritarian like childishness, yeah. But anyway, so going back to what I was saying, if you think of the world of humanity or the world, because that's what we we're we're humans, so we're describing the world, and so that's how we would we would just look at the whole world this way. If you think of it as the feminine, the female has the that's the connection with the divine, the connection with the mysterious, and the the male, the masculine, because it, by the way, this is important, because it has no meaning in and of itself, the male has no inherent meaning according to in this in this conception. It cannot create life, it has no connection with what really is, right? The real thing behind the curtain. It's nothing, it dies on the vine unless it's connected with the divine, which is the female. So, because of that, it has to go out and find its purpose, right? So if you take that kind of conception of the world, then it makes all the sense in the world to me that the earliest, most I want to say primitive, but that makes it sound like it's like a negative connotation. But the like the baseline kind of substrata mythologies would have a masculine god killing or using or coming from and ordering the feminine thing, whatever it is, the Tiamat, the um, the wife of Kronos, the, you know, all of that. And so then it would make sense to me that what come because Marduk is what ends up being the god of the Babylonians, Zeus is what ends up being the god of the Greeks.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

The Greeks.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Yahweh is what ends up being because that is the one that interacts with the world, which interacts with the humans and goes out into the world. And so then that would be the masculine.

unknown 35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I'm not saying it's red, I'm just saying like I think that's that would make sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

It'd be interesting now to think about the s the story of Adam and Eve. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, sure. So in that, uh, is i does Eve represent the chaos?

SPEAKER_02 36:08

What I would say is this is a perfect example of why I think that by the time we get the works, so like 2,000 or uh 3,000 years ago, whatever it's already been solidified that women are the problem. And it's getting it's gotten encoded. Obviously, I'm not saying that. You know what I mean? You don't have to clear this is my this is my argument for we're just gonna let all our female listeners be mad at you for coming to the city. I think well that's my world. Um I think Or they'll be very happy that you pointed that out. I think no, I think that it by the time it's codified, it already has been um uh instilled into the the religion, the culture, because again, I mean obviously at that point the term religion would have been anachronistic. It's not a religion, it's just what is that that the the the masculine has ordered everything and that the female is the problem. And and um there is a um this is this is in that um that book that Krista recommended to you. Um you know, the serpent also represents the feminine in the chaos. And that there is a um a theory that again ancient Semitic people groups that the Hebrews would have come out of would have known the serpent not as the holder of evil as the ultimate evil Satan, right? Although Satan might have been a name for the, you know, whatever you know more about that than I do. But that it's um, you know, the the chaotic feminine energy connection to the mysterious kind of, you know, whatever. I don't know. There you go. Did we solve it, Catherine?

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Yeah, I don't know. Um I don't yeah, we have to wait to hear from Catherine if we solved that or not.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Or if we just made her mad.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

I don't think we m- I don't think we made her mad. I think um I think it's interesting. And uh and I'm not I gotta read the book. You know? Um like I said, I know enough to get myself in trouble, probably. Uh all right. Did we find any common ground on this topic, or was it a topic that we that really wasn't gonna be controversial for us anyway?

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, I don't know. There's a whole lot of controversy. I mean, I think that um you and I do have different um perspectives on it sounded like we had different perspectives on what um they were trying to do, what the Hebrews were trying to do. Yeah. But um Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

So we have uh we do have a different perspective on um it's slight though. It is slight. I think. But I do think that because I do think we also would both agree that um that they are trying to create a distinction between who they are uh as compared to the peoples around them.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yeah. Yeah. And uh I think all of this is is really I mean, I I could study myth. Well, I I I wouldn't say I study it. I listen to it and read about it constantly. I think it's fascinating because it's all just human psychology. It's great. Interesting. I think that's how I think.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah, we probably disagree on that a little bit too. I uh I will say this too. I I completely I can see your uh uh perspective on um religion we were talking about earlier about the like to try to control and um to me where I'm at right now is that the role of um I'll use the word religion. I'm not convinced that that's the right word I want to use, but just for sake of discussion, uh really needs to be to um to uh reintroduce or to um to keep in the conversation the mysterious. I think I think that that's um that uh to show that I think that the pro I think that we I think that uh we make a mistake if we try to use religion to um to explain concretely. I think that um I think that the purpose of religion and I'm again this is a this is a forming thought, so if someone's like, no, that's you're Jeff, you're completely wrong, sure, because I might say it different tomorrow. Get your own podcast. I might I might say it I might say it different tomorrow. But um to think that to think that the purpose of religion is to be able to explain um and and provide concrete um perspectives, information, whatever. I think that that's wrong. I think that that's a wrong, I think you're heading in a I think you're heading in a direction that that will never succeed because you're actually dealing with things that can never be understood and never be explained. And so really the role of religion, the role of faith, the role of belief, whatever, in the divine is a belief in the mysterious and the unexplainable. And it's to add mystery and to give a greater appreciation for that which cannot be explained. And to try to provide like continue to carve out space for that in a world that we seem to be thinking that we are more and more concrete in our understanding. So that's kind of where I'm at.

SPEAKER_05 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

All right. Anything else?

SPEAKER_02 42:38

No, that's it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

All right. Well, Catherine. Do you like my sticker? I do. I I love that. Did you did you order a t-shirt?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

No, is there a t-shirt?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

There's gonna be a t-shirt. Oh, I'm gonna. By the way, the sticker is the St. Larry, the uh mascot of Grace United Methodist Church. It's on my phone now. I know. Um, yeah, that's fantastic. And uh the t-shirts, I think they're gonna have order, they had order forms last week and they'll continue to take orders.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

All right. Have a wonderful week. And Catherine, you'll be hearing this a week after we had the conversation. So take care.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.