We Don’t Need To Agree On God To Live Well Together

Feeling stuck between faith and skepticism, reason and ritual? We open the door to a different way through. Two friends—a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist—set aside purity tests to ask a harder, better question: if belief is what you act out, how should you live?

We dig into Jordan Peterson’s “I act as if God exists,” not to idolize a quote but to probe its ethical edge. What if belief is less a list of statements and more a pattern of fruits—habits that make you gentler, braver, and truer? From there, we trade the yes/no trap of “Do you believe in God?” for the clarifying “What do you mean by God?” One of us can’t affirm a theistic or deistic deity yet still finds depth in church, communion, and Ash Wednesday, treating ritual as a way to meet the mystery that moves us. The other sees God as the ground and telos of being—felt wherever truth, beauty, and justice pull us toward wholeness.

Our map crosses philosophy and science without losing the thread of daily life. We explore the “two natures” at work in us: grasping versus giving. We reach for physics as metaphor—entropy and negentropy—to name decay and emergence, and we ask whether our choices align with what helps life flourish. Kant’s categorical imperative offers a practical compass; the Stoics and Epicureans add tools for checking our desires and training better reflexes. Along the way, we debate whether thought reshapes desire or the unconscious leads, but we agree on the payoff of metacognition: discipline as a gift to your future self.

By the end, we land on simple, demanding common ground: judge a worldview by its outcomes. If your theology, science, or philosophy makes you kinder and more just, keep going. If it makes you brittle or cruel, revise it or release it. No grandstanding, just an honest test anyone can try today.

If this conversation helps you live a little more open and a lot more grounded, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review. Tell us: does what you do matter more than what you believe? Your take might shape our next episode.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to living on common ground.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Oh, we can not be together. But then we write back in the world. We fall apart like we need a damn bit of nothing.

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SPEAKER_03 1:17

Morning. It's still morning, right? Uh yeah. Okay. You're on the same time zone, right? No. No, no, you're on East. I'm on the beach. Have you guys done any uh like beach time? What's it like over there?

SPEAKER_04 1:30

So right now it's uh it's well, yesterday got sunny in the afternoon. And um I walked out on the beach for a little bit. I took a picture of my coffee mug sitting on the beach. And then and then we drove around. We we drove around Virginia Beach, and then we drove up to Buckrow Beach. I don't know. Um it's over it's on it's north of um it's north of the James River. And uh and we went out and there's a beautiful park uh at Buckrow Beach, and I took a picture of Denise with the pier in the background. And so yeah, we've been just kind of driving around and checking everything out.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

But uh it's just the two of you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Just the two of you.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Just a uh a chill hang on the beach.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

It's really nice. We've been well, we both have our laptops, we're both working, and um in the background you can see this is uh this is Brendan and Elaine's uh Elaine's brothers, they share it uh beach house.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Oh, sweet.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Yeah. So we're right on um Virginia Beach. I forget which which beach this is. Uh, you know, like you have different each beach will have its own little name, but um uh we're south of the main city. Yeah. Yeah. About 15 minutes or so outside. But yeah, it's beautiful. All right, so um I was watching Jordan Peterson this morning, but you mentioned a Jordan Peterson.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Well were you were you watching more of the um the uh uh Sermon on the Mount stuff?

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Yeah, I'm on lecture eight. Okay. I'm getting ready to wrap it up, and then I'm gonna move into somebody other than Jordan Peterson just because I'm curious to see who else is on there.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Um check out uh check out my shirt. This is a uh the rest is history shirt.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Okay. I was trying to see what it is. It looks like it might be. Is that um hold on, is that Hannibal riding to destroy the Analomarca? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

He's riding he's riding an elephant, which I don't think there is any evidence that he actually ever did, but a good story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:43

So I mean, and let's be honest, how much evidence is necessary to teach history? You can just say whatever you want. I do. Why not? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, are they gonna talk to somebody else who was there? Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Right. So okay. So give me this Jordan Peterson quote.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Yeah, so um it's it's a video I've seen this and I've seen him talk about this a lot um in different contexts uh when the subject of uh God and religion comes up. Um and in this interview, um the the interviewer asks him uh I think the explicit question is um why why not why does he not really take on the the explicit question of the existence of God? And um why he doesn't like to to answer the question, does God exist? Or um and he he really doesn't like to answer the question, do I believe in God? Um or you know, um and and like f I a lot of a lot of people, especially anybody who's a fan of Jordan Peterson knows that um his wife actually um whatever you want to call it converted to Catholicism like three years ago, something like that, publicly. And um uh but but not him. Um and so I thought you would find it interesting because he says I mean he said he and I think and we'll we'll play it, but um what he says basically is that the existence of God or not is not reducible to uh in his words to a two-hour conversation. Um it's it's also not um has very little to do with and this is why I thought you would like it, um, has very little to do with a um a platform of beliefs um or a uh basically it it doesn't it doesn't have to do with um like a a statement or a catechism or something like that, right? Um that he feels that it's sufficient to say um that I live at that that it's a it's a completely um uh un well how how does he say it? Well we're gonna play it, but an unknowable metaphysical reality, and therefore it doesn't make any sense to talk about it in um you know kind of frontal lobe, logical, rational ways, uh, that it's sufficient for him to say that he lives as if he believes in God. And that's that's the end. That's that's the only way that he can describe it. Um and uh you know, it made me think about you and your um the the things you said in the past about how uh you are more concerned with um you know acting correctly rather than believing correctly. Um and uh and I, you know, so anyway, I I thought that it it sounded like um uh something that was up your alley about it.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Absolutely. All right, so uh we'll pause here for a second and we'll include the clip in the video.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Take on this question of the existence of God.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Because it's not something to reduce to a sound bite, fundamentally.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

But your lectures are two hours long.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

This is true, but when you're talking about the most important questions that people have ever asked, then two hours isn't very long. Apparently, people will watch them. So I'm not I'm not prepared to. I'm not prepared to say things in any other way than I've already said them. You know, there it isn't obvious what belief means. People think that what they believe is what they say they believe. I don't believe that. I believe that what people believe is what they act out. And so I said, I act as if God exists. That's a sufficient statement as far as I'm concerned. You know, what's the old saying? By their fruits ye shall know them. Same idea. Right? It's a matter of action and a matter of commitment. It's not a matter of me parading out my my explicit statements about a metaphysical reality that's virtually impossible to comprehend.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Okay. So a couple thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 8:54

One is I'm familiar a little bit with um uh Peterson's response to that question about what do you you know, do you believe in God? And I've seen video clips before where the person gets really sort of agitated with Peterson. And they're like, no, it's a real simple question. Do you believe in God or do you not believe in God? Yeah. And I and I uh sympathize with Peterson on that because I don't think that it's a simple question. I think I was about to say something. Um it's simple people that make it a simple question. That was me just not being very nice.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

No, I I I yeah, I mean it's um it is a um well, I I'm I'm I'm sympathiz or I'm I I I I feel non-judgmental toward people who who do see it as a question of belief and statements of belief because that is the the scaffolding, I think, of the culture that we live in. Um and I I do think this is a because of living in a post-Enlightenment um um culture, I I think that we have an assumption that nothing is real unless I can describe it in words with my kind of frontal lobe cognition. That's where I should be living at all times, right? That I should be able to describe exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing at all times and what the benefit is and what the negative would be if I didn't do it. And if I can't, then it's illegitimate. And and um that's just I feel like that is the the scaffolding of the of the culture we live in. And I just don't think that's the reality of the human experience, you know, of a big chunk of the human experience.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah, I think I think that uh we we want to be able to reduce everything into sort of these these imaginary binaries. And and so a question like, do you believe in God? I think is a uh it's not a productive question. It's the type of it's the type of question that all it's really trying to do is uh create um it doesn't allow for nuance. I think a I think a better question if you wanted to ask somebody is what do you believe about God? And I think that that open then that can open up all kinds of conversations because then you can have a conversation with someone who doesn't believe anything about God. But but they can they can describe that to you, right? So if I were to ask, if I were to ask you, for example, do you believe in God? That that's that's really sort of a uh yes or no question. But if I asked you, well, what do you believe about God? Even if you don't believe about God, you could you could uh talk to me, we could enter into a really big conversation about that. And I think that that's kind of what Peterson, I mean, I'm obviously you'd have to ask him, but I think that's kind of what he's getting at. And and as he talks, I think, I think about um Paul Tillich and how Paul Tillich will talk about you know, uh God is not a being, but the ground of being. And for me, that's an extremely important part of my theology. So if you were to ask me, do uh do you believe in God, Jeff? Uh I may ask you a question back and be like, well, what do you mean when you say God? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

So I also think I I think that that is that is to me, that is the obvious question. That is the obvious clarifying question that comes up if somebody asks directly, do you believe in God? I mean, I I'm gonna need to have maybe a uh you know, a three-day long conference on a discussion of what you mean when you say God before I could get close to um describe and the the issue there, which I have this I have this problem with lots of um ideology and these kind of simplistic questions, or not simplistic questions, but um but questions that come down to a binary point. Um and that is that if you ask the clarifying question back that is a signal that oh, they're not they they then you don't believe uh clearly you don't believe in God. Or and this is just an example of it, you know, do you believe in God? This could be anything. Like you could say, let me let me go to another one, do you believe in systemic oppression? I'm gonna wanna have a three-day-long conference discussing with you what the heck you mean by systemic oppression before I can ever come close to giving you an answer for that. And as soon as I ask the clarifying question, what do you mean by that? I'm, you know, and I and I wanna um, you know, maybe impeach your sources and you know I you know, I want to get into like what you mean by that. As soon as I start asking that question, someone who has asked me that question knows that I'm not on their team, right? That that I'm they or at least that's gonna be the impression back is um, oh, well, you're you're just trying to muddy the waters, right? Similar to how you know Sam Harris said about Peterson. Um, you know, you you can answer the question, did Jesus rise from the dead or not? You can just say yes or no. You don't have to have a nine-hour long conversation. And Peterson's like, I don't know what to tell you. I do need to have a nine-hour long conversation before we can get close to it.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Right. So the other thing you mentioned, well, and then I'll come back to another thought I had, but another thing that you mentioned was this idea where, well, something that I've said is um I'm not really as concerned about what you believe about God as much as I am concerned about um I don't I don't care because beliefs only matter insofar as determining what you do. That's that's sort of the thing, right? That's kind of that's well, that's that's something that's really important in part of like all of my thinking. So and then um Brendan actually pointed out to me one time, he goes, You actually do care what people think. What people believe.

unknown 15:28

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

Right? And I do care what people believe in so far as it determines what you do. Right. So um but I I think that um Well, okay, I'm sorry, no, no, no. Well, I was just gonna say, but like certain having certain um doctrinal statements about God, I don't care. Like I don't care what your doctrinal statements are about God. Um what I care about is does your belief in God uh your existential beliefs, does it help you, does it cre does it transform you into a better human being?

SPEAKER_05 16:10

That's that's sort of my my where I would say I do care about your beliefs.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Well, I I mean what I I I guess I'll I I'll push back on that a little bit in my experience with you. And I think that I I don't know if this is what Brendan was getting at, but I think um I would agree with him on this if if um if he agrees with me. Uh which is um I've heard you talk about particular theologies and kind of and and say, well that and that's bad theology, right? Um and and be concerned that people are interpreting um scriptures incorrectly. And that um and I wonder if when you're the and this is um I uh we all we all do this, but I I wonder if when you're again thinking about it cognitively and you're kind of working it out, that that in that sense, in that moment, yeah, you're you're like, yeah, I don't actually care which which way you think or how you believe, but just if it if it makes you a better person or makes you act better. But that when you're not in your frontal lobe kind of conscious, if there's an irk if there's an irking that you feel, if someone is espousing something you feel like is is incorrect theology.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

So I think it depends on how they're espousing it. Okay. And then that goes back to like determining how you do it or what you do. Um so like if you're if the way that you interpret the scriptures or the way that you understand God causes you or makes you feel as if you have to be uh you have to aggressively defend it, uh that's the problem I have. It's not the belief itself. It's with the it's with the way that you feel the need to aggressively defend it. Or that uh if it causes you to bel like, um, well, one of the things that bothers me a lot is is uh when when um a person has a set of doctrinal beliefs and and they part of that belief system is if you don't adhere to these, then you then then you're um you're damned to hell or something like that. I think that um and and I and I again this goes all the way back to like sort how it it's but it's more complicated than that, right? Because like you've pointed out to me, you've actually you're actually a little more gracious to that position than I am because your experience with your grandparents has caused you to understand that when someone does that, often it's because they care about you.

SPEAKER_05 19:11

Right?

SPEAKER_04 19:11

And so they if if if you truly believe that having the correct beliefs, the doctoral beliefs, keeps you from going to hell and you believe in hell and you love somebody, then why wouldn't you want to um continue to press upon them the importance of having that particular set of beliefs? And that so I so I get that too. Um all I'm saying is that if the way that you read the Bible, if the way that you understand God causes you to be a jerk, then I would say that I have a problem with that theology. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Sure, that's fair, and that's fair. I think that's fair. I think um, you know, uh it um you know, a lot of different ways of of approaching religion can make you can it can come out as being um being a jerk um or you know being um judgmental, condescending, um uh you know, hypocritical. I I definitely think that that um obvious, I mean that's obvious that that that is um uh you know that's why there's so many, I think, so many admonitions um in religious scriptures, not just in Christian religious scriptures, but you know, lots of different religious scriptures against these kinds of um what I would see as like human nature um actions. You know, I think it's I think it's normal to be uh exclusionary. I think it's normal to be judgmental and and to be um filled with wrath and lust. And you know, I think these are these are the uh the reasonably expected uh um uh states to find a human in, I think. And that's why I think um uh philosophy and and religion have a they have an important I think they do have a really important um place in humanity, but also I think that that that's part of the reason why they are just integrated into the the broader human experience because you're always gonna have that um that other side of the coin, you know, as you're acting wrathfully in wrath, you have this kind of feeling of I maybe I shouldn't be, or maybe this is causing a problem, or I'm I'm getting this is dangerous, or you can feel the feeling of um catharsis from acting in your wrath and in the moment of the catharsis know that you've spent something of your soul for lack of a better term you know um but uh yeah and I I mean I see that in in lots of different lots of different areas I guess the the thing that I that I liked uh that I have liked about the way that Peterson describes it is um you know if you it still today if you ask me Lucas do you believe in God I have to say I I have most likely I I'm gonna I'm I have to say no. No I don't and I can still describe that you know I can still go no I don't believe in a theistic God um one with a character and I don't have any reason to believe in a deistic God one without a character. Okay. Great. Lucas you go to church like every every week couple times a week sometimes uh you take communion you uh uh made sure that uh when you're out of town on Ash Wednesday that you found um a service to go do an Ash Wednesdays. What yeah I did. I went to I I went to actually our our old church back in uh in California. And um it was nice. I um I didn't I didn't know I was going to actually so I um the last time I was in town on a Sunday I had told our old pastor that um that I was going to be there and I I was going to go attend um service there. And so I kind he had a heads up and so then we went out for lunch afterward. This time I didn't I I had just realized that I was um missing the Ash Wednesday service. I realized that like Tuesday night. And so I was like ah man and um then I was like well there's a bunch of I bet I could find a a Catholic mass somewhere and they'd they'd probably um I mean I'm I wouldn't take communion but I'd um but I could still attend the service and then I was like oh no our our old um church they uh they do a Ash Wednesday service so I so I showed up but I hadn't told him so then I walked up to get the ashes and he was like he it's like oh my gosh I didn't know you were gonna be here.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

Anyway so that all being said it's it it really speaks to my experience to say I I live my life as if I believed.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

I live my life not as if I believed actually it's the wrong way I live my life as if it's real that's what I think is probably that's probably accurate for me. Um even though if you press me I don't believe it and part of this is because and I'm sorry I know I'm kind of I'm rambling a little bit but part of this is because I do think that the vast majority of what drives us um like 95% of it what drives us is unconscious. Um and the more um invisible something is to me that is inside of me the more it it drives me. And so I I want to participate in this human experience of this kind of unknowable mystery submitting myself to that. Even though I don't have any kind of I don't have a cognitive belief in it. Do do you know what I mean? Like if I'm think if I'm sitting down I'm thinking about I'm talking about it I can't get myself there. But if I'm in a worship service you know if I'm in a um in a so it and it it's much better if it's somber serious for me. Um you know then I feel as if I am connecting to something that is mysterious and and deeper and you know ancient.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

So yeah I think uh some of the things you said that resonate with me is the unknowable that uh and then there's also this um so there's this unknowable um and then you mentioned this idea that um you might be in the middle of doing something but then inherently like inside of you for for whatever it feels like it might be not the right thing. Right? I for I forget exactly how you worded that. Okay. So all kinds of thoughts. One is uh and I'm gonna I don't I can't say the exact quote unfortunately but Epictetus talked about this idea of when you're when you're faced with a temptation ask yourself is is the moment of joy gonna be greater than the uh than the guilt that you feel afterwards right and how long are you gonna how long will you feel the guilt compared to the momentary joy? All right so I I think I think this is also then the story of Genesis. The absolutely Yeah and so so that's forget the whole like forget historical whatever. The story of of the um is that there are two natures to us. There's this one nature that seems to be going against nature. Does that make sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

So we have an internal nature well wait hang on yeah which one do you think is going against nature?

SPEAKER_04 28:10

I think that the moment that I am okay I I just finished the sermon series where I was talking about the difference between a grasping and a giving yeah I think that the grasping is going against the greater nature. Okay that's okay all right and and what I'm saying is uh the greater nature of reality itself the un and and so there is this idea that there's a metaphysical unknowable that um and uh and so when I talk about sort of this unknowable part of existence um the the thing that seems to be holding it together and moving it in this particular trajectory that's what I'm talking about when I say the word God so like I can't get behind the idea of a divine being that has human characteristics that exists somewhere out there and that is somehow um creating things in the in the exact same way that I sit down uh when I was when I would create art right I I don't I don't see that but I do see that there's this there seems to be this there's something that's moving things in a particular direction. Again you get into the idea that uh how do how do we make sense of neg entropy as opposed to entropy um because according to physics if everything is energy then it then everything should just be burning up and burning out but but negentropy is that in within um but but that it's also calling and creating into um uh what what's the word um uh my mind just went blank uh when uh a complex there's a complexity that's being created too that should not that doesn't make sense if it's all entropy that's so there's neg entropy.

SPEAKER_05 30:11

Okay. Okay. So um I I lost my train of thought.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Where was I going with this Lucas help me out um you've got the two natures you've got Yes okay so I do think that there seems to be a design where everything at some point will move towards it contributes to flourishing. Now it could end up that once we hit that point entropy takes over and it's all done. But I don't know. Like the fact that um the bird the the flowers need bees and bees need flowers. Um we need trees and trees need uh animals that are creating carbon dioxide and um so that it can take and create oxygen and like it all it all seems to be working together. Right? And the Stoics would talk about that being the logos. Um Christians talk about that and use the phrase use the word God. Um I think and I know that people would get mad at me and be highly offended, but I think that when I look at physics the the word being used is energy. And I do think that that um that there are two natures and there's the one that leads to flourishing of everything, including me. And then there's the one that I think is flourishing but actually ends up being very destructive when it's a self-focus flourishing so let me go let me circle back around to something else. Is that all right? All right Jordan Peterson when he does talk about God he talks about the uh the the transcendental values right but he he call he talls he calls them the values of the absolute mm-hmm right yep and he talks about truth beauty and justice and and when he talks God is the ideal it's the absolute ideal it is the ideal it is and that which is a little different than what I'm describing but I also think that within the design of when I talk about flourishing I am talking about the ultimate ideal right and he talks a little bit about that in that his lecture on um the Sermon on the Mount he talks about God being heaven actually he talks about heaven being the ideal that we strive for and hell being the complete opposite of it. Right. Which I think is a beautiful it's a beautiful way of thinking about it. But that's again so this idea that truth beauty justice are the values of the absolute so when you're talking about God we're talking about how all of those things uh work together and which of course is then why I um immediately in my notepad this is this is what I pulled up by the way um my uh my your notes that you're taking in your college course no this actually goes all the way back this is um this goes back further than that but no some of the notes in here are the are the one that I'm taking with um this is just my journal for the last several months. Um and I don't know I don't know why I have um a question a circle Epicurus with a question mark underneath all of that.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

But um I know that I I have talked to you about Epicureanism as one of my favorite uh Greek philosophies, one of my favorite Greek philosophies. Okay. And um I know that when I brought it up the last time you had said like that that would be something that you wanted to look into.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

So that's probably maybe so I do I did buy a book um because my only exposure right now to Epicureanism is the Stoics having things that they don't like about it.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Yeah they were they were competing especially Seneca for sure. Yeah I was um reading Seneca's letters and um he mentions Epicurean school it they the the um argument against Epicureanism is almost always that I see that it um just leads to hedonism and um and unseriousness which in my in my view is just a um complete misunderstanding of of what the the tenants were but um you know whatever so back to um hold on well I've got a couple of thoughts about your uh what you had talked about yeah but let me finish this thought okay yeah um so you mentioned that you uh what is it you you can't get behind a belief in God as a uh a deist belief of God or a what theist I I definitely I I definitely can say I do not have any belief in a theistic God a God with character um and I don't see any reason to believe in a deistic God a God with no character the the uncreated creator the first cause blah blah blah sure so the way I the way I believe and what I believe about God it doesn't matter to me the about either one either one of those statements.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

I'm not even sure that I care that you would that you would use the even when you say but maybe I I uh I live my life as if there were one right or something like that however you worded that I'm not even sure that that's a necessary statement for me. What what I what I care about is that people order their lives in such a way try to live their lives in such a way that they're contributing to the flourishing of all things including other human beings. And if your theology uh does that then I think then in my categories that's a good theology if your theology doesn't do that then that would be a bad theology. If your science does that right whatever whatever category you want to put it if your philosophy does that then I think it's a good philosophy. Because I think that when w whether we're talking about philosophy, we're talking about science we're talking about theology, it's all just different ways of talking about the same reality.

unknown 36:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

All right so now tear me apart no I um I wanna go back to the what what I'd made notes about is your um the quote from Epictetus that you had talked about. Yeah the one where I the one I mangled about I don't think you mangled it um I mean I don't know the quote so maybe you did but um but I got this I got the basic essence of it correct.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

Yeah. Um here's my couple of thoughts the the process of of asking yourself anything that's metacognitive thinking about your thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

And that is all frontal lobe stuff that I was talking about before. And what I how I envision the world is that that is that kind of ask yourself if this is um going to be more of a benefit than what I'm gonna feel later trying to cognitively put yourself in the future of yourself right like you're like you've described as your um your whiteboard in your kitchen discipline is a gift to my future self, right? This kind of thinking is a is a like a fundamental life hack. It is a it's like magic it is um it really I do think the more you can do it separates your life into a path that will be um more however you want to say it enjoyable fulfilled more secure blah blah blah blah blah it's it's where things like um uh delayed gratification come from it's where things like um you could think of it in your relationships with other people you know you're thinking about okay what would actually be the best way for me to respond to my child who has made me who is over the last week or so making me feel this is not my children but just I'm just a just an example making me feel um resentful or or um disrespected or what right and instead of just reacting you kind of think about you try to imagine it and as Jordan Peterson talks about when you do that what you're actually doing is killing off metaphorically killing off um versions of yourself that will that will not accomplish your goal you think through those and they don't accomplish your goal so you kill them. So you don't have to die he talks about like you that this great thing about thinking is that you don't have to die yourself from some stupid idea that you're gonna have because you can think about the idea ahead of time, right? Okay. All of that I 100% am on board that it's a life hack and it really does separate the population I think in my opinion I think the vast majority of humans 80% maybe just react through life okay I'm not actually putting a judgment on that I'm saying I think it's just the reality. And I think if you can think about your life it will it will help separate your life now having said that I still don't think that that is where I live that is where I live five percent of my time but if you were looking at a picture if you were looking at a painting that had ninety five percent blue paint on it and had five percent red paint on it and you said tell me what color that painting is you can only tell me which one one of them you'd say it was a blue painting you wouldn't say oh that's mostly a red painting or you wouldn't say like well I think the red is really that's just as important as the rest of it. That's just a no it would be it's a it would be a blue a blue painting and I think that we live our life even people who try to have these times of really thinking about what we're doing and how we're how we're living I still think that that is a very small part of our of our experience and I don't think that's where our conscience comes from. I think our conscience comes con con not consciousness but conscience yeah with an end conscience comes from something precognitive um and you know so again that's why I um uh you know like the idea of well this is j I I this is this is how I move through the world is is if this ideal exists and I'm striving for it I will say also I do agree with the two natures idea I just think the real nature is the grasping one I think that the giving one is the one we should strive for but I don't think that it is more fundamental than the grasping one. I definitely think personally that the grasping one is the most fundamental and that we are fighting against it.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

Yeah so you're painting the blue one is the grasping the red one is the giving right and or the red one is the one that's actually going to lead to um uh Kant's categorical imperative right you know the universal moral law and I have a note here are you familiar with this?

SPEAKER_03 43:02

No.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Okay. Um so Kant advocated acting in ways that if universally followed would result in the best outcome for all yes I am aware of that. Okay. So uh it's just known as Kant's categorical imperative. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 43:18

So I would say if you're looking at the blue painting right and it has a red dot The red dot's the most important part of the blue painting.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Because it's the thing that is different and it's the thing that has the potential to change the entire thing. The difference between just a blue painting and a blue painting with a red dot is the red dot.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Yeah I might be able to get behind that that that's the most important part of it. Um I just wouldn't call it I I wouldn't call it the um the more real part of it. I I would separate those I would not either I wouldn't say it was the more real part.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

I wouldn't say that I Either one of those uh the grasping or the um uh uh the giving, I don't think either one of them are more real. I'm not talking about the thing. I thought you were saying that the like that the logos this thing that um they both they both really exist. But what I think is that when you look at the um the way that I and I see where the confusion is because I'm using the word reality, right? Um but the the way that existence seems to be um I'm trying to avoid using the word designed, right?

SPEAKER_05 44:42

Um but but the telos of existence of of uh of all things seems to be uh working together for the flourishing of the entire organism.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

And that we have two real, very real natures that we're struggling with every day. The one that goes against that and the one that aligns with it. And it's that little red dot that allows us the opportunity to reflect, to align with it. And I think though, the fact that because we have both of both those natures is where we struggle. Because I don't, I mean, I don't know for sure, but I like I look at like um I do want to clarify, wait, I do want to clarify one thing though.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

When I'm when I describe that picture, I really actually, yeah, and I think I do want to step back here for a second, because I I was not meaning um to describe and I think that I did actually say this, but that's not really what I meant. I don't mean that um the blue represents like the the uh negative selfish bad, you know, whatever, and the red represents the good, altruistic, you know, whatever. What I really meant in that was that the blue represented unconscious um motivation and how I how I go through my life unconsciously, and that the red represents any time I'm conscious about something.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

Well, uh oh yeah, I have no problem with that either. Because I also would would say I wouldn't want to use uh good and bad as the categories to describe them.

unknown 46:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Because I don't think I don't think it's good or bad. I think one's helpful and one's less helpful.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

Well, I'm just saying that I think that in the blue, which is the unconscious, that I think is 95% of my experience, I have urges that are what some might consider altruistic, and then I have other urges that are you know, selfish or whatever. Um it's just that they come they they I've never changed my motivation through conscious thought, I guess. Is you know do you you see what I'm saying? Like I'm I'm my conscious thought is such a small part of my experience that my motive I I can't imagine changing my my motivations um through any kind of belief system or thinking or anything like that. Um it seems to me like my motivations influence my thought, not the way the other way around.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

Yeah. It seems like Yeah, I think this is a place of disagreement for us. Because I I mean I would never tell you about your own experiences. Ah, go ahead. Right. Whatever. But it seems to me I'm a big boy. It seems to me like you may be downplaying uh some of some of that. I think that um it it may not be immediate, but I think that the more time you spend processing like the metacognitive, eventually it it almost feels like it's just a natural response. Right? Uh a couple things pop into my mind, both Seneca. One is all cruelty springs from weakness. Um and so right, I think that that's important. And then the other thing, too, is that everything hangs on one's thinking. A man is unhappy as he has convinced himself he is. And so the more that we can think about things, it will change the way that we next time respond. And I think that it does eventually become a natural response to you. Um silly example. I talked about the time that I had that uh that really uncomfortable experience at um at deli. Remember that? Do you remember me telling you that story, right? And then I cla okay I had to close my eyes. All right. So recently I was in the woods and I had this overwhelming experience of feeling completely connected to trees. Uh-huh. I didn't stop and think that for myself. Yeah. But because of all the time I've spent thinking about logos and and energy and all that, that it natural that naturally became an experience that I had. So all right. Did we did we f I mean uh we identified some place where we disagreed? Do we have any common ground?

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Yeah, I think that um the uh I am on board with the idea that um you know the the experience of well um your belief system, your belief platitudes that's prejudicial. Your your your statements of belief are are only uh good insofar as they um can make for conversation fodder. It's not really what what's what your life is, you know. Your life is is all the the constellation of you know, actions and and emotions and and experiences and everything that you have, and if you know.

SPEAKER_05 50:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

That's that's what's I think that's what's important. I think that's probably a place we we uh we're very very similar on.

SPEAKER_04 50:42

I think so too. And some common ground. Through this conversation, I have come to another realization, this conversation today, even though it seemed like at times we were uh wandering all over the place, which we probably were. But um I think that like the specific details about God are not important to me. But my understanding of the reality that I might describe as God are. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 51:13

Yeah. All right. Thanks. Appreciate it. Cool, man.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

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