Jesus Heals A Kid And Then Ruins The Vibe

Every corner of life now feels like a forced choice: left or right, religious or secular, “our side” or “their side.” We don’t buy that those are the only options, and we’re testing that belief the only way we know how: two friends with clashing labels, a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist, trying to talk like actual humans.

A simple question kicks it off: why would Lucas start reading the Bible again, and why go straight to the Gospels during Lent? From there we get pulled into the Gospel of Luke and a weird pattern we can’t unsee, the moments where Jesus seems to answer a question and then drop a line that feels like it came from a different conversation. Are those awkward segues editorial seams, intentional jolts, or clues to a deeper thread we’re missing? We work through a concrete example and talk about how translation and interpretation shape what we think the text “really says.”

Then the conversation widens into rhetoric and media literacy. When information is everywhere and mostly free, persuasion becomes the battleground. We connect ancient rhetoric, sermon craft, stand-up comedy timing, and modern politics to one core takeaway: the medium affects the message, and your image communicates whether you mean it or not.

If you care about faith, skepticism, biblical interpretation, communication skills, and finding common ground in a polarized world, hit play. Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

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SPEAKER_02 1:16

How are you? How we sound. We're great. All right. Yeah, the sound engineer is doing a fabulous job. Awesome. Yeah. So um I got a text message from you almost two weeks ago now. It was a Wednesday. Uh-huh. I remember it distinctly because I had just gotten back to I was on a plane, I think. Were you?

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Yeah, I think I was on a plane.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I had just gotten back to my truck. I was at a place called Bandy Creek. Uh-huh. And um, and I got back to my truck and I had cell phone reception and um and it lit up and um and I looked and I was like, oh, it's my friend Lucas. And I was you were was you were on a tra on the trail, right? Mm-hmm. It was day three.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah. And uh I um I really overdid it. And, you know, so I I set out to um I wasn't going to do the Appalachian Trail this time because I didn't want to put anybody out because I knew that where I was gonna start and where I was gonna have to finish to cover areas that I haven't done yet on the Appalachian Trail. It would be a lot to ask someone to drive me.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

To pick you up or what?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Drop me off and pick me up. Because you where I would have needed to be dropped off and picked up, I'm asking somebody to drive at least five to six hours in one direction.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

And unless you're going that way and you want to drop me off, I don't I just it just felt like a lot. Okay. So um, so what I decided to do was do the big South Fork instead. And I put together a whole itinerary. And I wanted to go slow and I wanted to just spend some time reflecting and um doing some sightseeing. I think in the text message I sent you, it was kind of like it was gonna be like a um returning home type of thing. And uh anyway, I ended up covering somewhere between 40 to 45 miles in three days. Okay, um was way quicker than the pace I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

So I was averaging about 15 miles a day.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

And um uh so all that to say, I got back to the truck and I saw your text message, and and um, I'm not gonna go into the whole trail thing, at least not on this, because nobody that's not why they're listening. Yeah, it is. Um no. Um, but I'd be I would love to tell like maybe um you and Krista and we can talk about it with Denise and hang out at some point. Um but it was uh it ended up not being anything like I had planned. Sure. So um, but you had said that uh you were working on some topics for episodes.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yep. And uh Which I left at home. Great.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Well, um you had you said that it had to do with um well, in fact, I I can pull up the text.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yeah, that one particular one. But uh I know that I was on the plane because I was um that was uh something I was doing while I was flying is just working on different topics that we could Yeah, you said um yell at each other about I don't I don't I don't think we'd yell about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Because you know, I told you that someone said that they've been listening and um and they felt like it was just two people trying to get along.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Uh-huh. I was trying to uh fix that the last couple weeks.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Excellent. Uh-huh. Um so you said this. You said, here's one. I've been reading the Bible again, specifically the gospels. How about we talk about the crazy non-sequitors that Jesus says? I keep finding them where he's saying something and then just throws in a non-sequitur at the end that doesn't actually make any sense. And I said, that sounds good. However, one of the questions I had right off the bat is, why are you reading the gospels? Like what prompted you to, I mean, like if I had said, hey, I've been reading the gospels, nobody would they'd be like, well, yeah, of course you would. You have been. But when you say like you've been reading the gospels, to be I I'm just being honest with you, I was like, why? Why are you reading them? And so um, so that's my question is what prompted you to sit down and start reading the gospels?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Why?

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Um Well, are is your is your question specifically about why the gospels, or you is your question about why the Bible in general?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah. Yes. Like what prompted you to sit down and say, you know what? I think I'm gonna pull out the Bible. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Okay. So um the Bible, the reading uh reading the Bible again, that's been an ongoing thing for probably the last uh off and on for the last year or so.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Um Okay. Here's a little window into Lucas. You ready?

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Um I I try I I wake up uh much earlier than my household. Um and generally. And lately, actually in the last like several months, it's been much earlier. It's been like at 4 30. I've been getting up. Wow. Not on purpose. I just can't sleep past 4 30 for whatever reason. But usually it's like five. That's pretty typical. Between five and five thirty.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

You're getting up at the same time the birds start their choir.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yeah. And I get to and I listen to them and I like all that. That's all fine. Uh it really is, it really is just temperament. I'm just uh early morning person. I also am like uh can't stay awake past like eight kind of person. If you start a movie or something at seven o'clock, I'm asleep before the opening credits, you know. Um uh my kids get up, or my uh at this point, Ellis gets up around six. I get them up at six. So I usually have like an hour to an hour and a half uh by myself in the morning. And every day I tell myself, I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna do like meditation, devotional, um journaling, affirmations, right? So then I get up and I scroll for an hour and a half as I do every morning. But I will go through time periods where I am like, where I do get momentum. I have to force myself, I have my tricks, right? Uh do the smallest, smallest, smallest amount that I can do without um without any discipline and then grow it from there, right? Um, but I will get momentum sometimes. And so I'll try to read something like um I've got uh um Jordan Peterson's 12 more rules that I I'm reading through for the the second or third time. It's a good one because it's like it's you know, 12 different meditations. That's basically what the book is, just like his first one. Or like the um the Daily Stoic Um Ryan Hamilton one, right? Do that. Sometimes I was reading meditations, sometimes I'll have another holiday. Who did I say? Hamilton. Ryan Hamilton. Ryan Hamilton's a comedian. Anyway, yeah, Ryan Hamilton. Sometimes anyway, go ahead. Um anyway, point is I'll have like some book. I'll try to be reading a little bit, whatever. So um, so probably about a year ago, I um I introduced um reading, I think it was Proverbs. I was like, that'd be a good book to introduce as a let's just see how this feels.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

And it's, you know, because it's bite-sized. And, you know, for anybody who's been listening to this podcast or has known me now for the last couple of years at our church, knows that um, you know, I I grew up memorizing the Bible. There's not really any, well, every once in a while I come across some story or something that I'm not ever that I'm not familiar with at all. And it's surprising to me. Um, some Old Testament story or something. And then, and then obviously there's stuff that you come across and it hits you in a different way, and you go, oh, I never thought about it like that, and whatever, you know. But in general, very, very familiar um with the Bible. It's like it's, I mean, it was the centerpiece of my childhood, you know, in terms of literature. And um, I don't I don't mean to call it literature like dismissive. I just mean like that's yeah, that was the thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

So it's not like I haven't read Proverbs before, but I was like, because I know Proverbs, um I love Ecclesiastes. It's my favorite book of the Bible. Um, and so I was like, I'll read Proverbs, read Ecclesiastes. It's just bite-sized, it's easy. And then um I was like, you know, it's just it's been a long time since I've read um uh like the the Israelites story. I just kind of started reading some of that, right? And then so the Gospels thing, though, was um uh that was really because of Lent. So I was out of town for Lent and I was a little um bummed that I was gonna, or I was out of town for Ash Wednesday, I mean, and I was a little bummed because it's of the religious calendar, it's my favorite holiday is Ash Wednesday. And um, but I remembered that our old church was always they had an Ash Wednesday service. So I went to that and then Krista texted me that she and the boys had come here and we texted pictures back and forth with our crosses on our foreheads, and um and uh um both of us decided to not drink for Lent. Um and and I and so I was just kind of uh it was on it was in my mind this particular season of the Christian calendar. And um so I already had like this kind of um uh routine of reading some of the Bible along with other stuff, right? Um, and so I was like, well, let's read one of the gospels. Like it's it's this the it it felt timely because of where we were in Lent. And um uh picked Luke. I don't know why. Just pick Luke and so then started reading through the Gospels. And so it was really um it's very interesting to well, the thing that I was sending you, I mean, like I would read some of these passages and I'm familiar with all of them. And like I'm familiar with the you know, all the parables, all the um, you know, trying to trying to trick Jesus and then his his cool responses and the you know, uh I'm just I've got in my mind I've got the story. Um but then it but it's been a long time since I've specifically read it myself. So then I would read things, there were a couple things that stood out to me. One was um how often he he clearly was hanging out with religious leaders all the time, all the time. And you know, I just I have this picture, I growing up, I had this picture of him as rejecting the religious leaders for the common folk. That was the idea. But over and over and over again, the religious leaders are there hanging out with him. Clearly, he had religious leaders, Pharisees, Sadducees, all these types of people as disciples, even they would have been considered not one of the 12, obviously, but the the people that they would have been called disciples. They were like there hanging out, talking, you know. Anyway, so that was very interesting. And the fact that, like, at the uh the the uh kind of the lead up to the passion um uh time period uh in Luke, he's preaching in the temple every day. He preaches at the temple, then he goes out to the Mount of Olives back and forth. That's what it says. He goes out to the Mount of Olives to rest. And then he comes back and he preaches the temple every day. Well, like clearly he's one of them, kind of in that way. You know what I mean? Anyway, I thought that was interesting. But then, like, what I texted you is that there would be all, and I wish I I should have brought it with me. Um there'd be these, like kind of a screed that he would go on uh in response to a question. And then at the and it would be about, I mean, I I don't know. The uh I'll I'll I'll get the on our next recording, I'll get the some of the specific examples. But it would be something like, you know, the Sadducees are trying to um trick him, or the Pharisees are trying to trick him about um, you know, should you work on the Sabbath or whatever? And he gives this parable, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's clear the parable is meant to say, like, you're missing the point of the Sabbath and blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. And it's like this real cool, and he's got a turn of phrase, and, you know, any, and he everyone's amazed. And then at the end, he goes, and also if you divorce your your wife, you, you're living in adultery and you'll go to hell. And I'm not saying that's the specific, but it's like that. It's like, here's my response to you, and then also here's this other thing that I'm gonna tag on there that doesn't, to my ear, doesn't seem to have fit, doesn't seem to have anything to do with what he's talking about. Yeah. So I think that's I I just it was I was very struck by that. It was very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

It is interesting. Pardon me, like as you're talking and sharing about that, I'm thinking to myself, one of the things I thought I was like, was that an editorial? Obviously, I think I would say I would be interested in knowing what the editor's purpose for that would be.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Whoever's recording it and yeah, whoever wrote this down, especially you're talking about Luke. What would what would Luke's point have been? And because in his mind, or at least for his community, there's a reason to connect the two things.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Um the reason I bring it up is because it's um it's an interesting experience to I I have a really clear picture in my mind, I think, of what um was uh what was intended to be uh imparted to me as I was growing up of Jesus' life. Not just the purpose, but what actually happened, right? Like I said, the reason I made such a big deal about like I memorized these stories over and over and over again is that I've heard all of these screeds. You know, that again, that sounds dismissive, but I mean like I've heard the red letters. I've I've I've been in countless, I mean, years and years and years of Sunday school, heard them preached, right? So I've heard all of these. And and so it's interesting to read these things that I've heard my whole life uh and and then be like, wait a sec, how when I was like when I was 16, how did I not know notice this? It would just be, I don't want to say it's glossed over as if I'm sure this happens, but as if my religious leaders purposefully ignored things. Although I know that happens. That's not my that's my point is not that they didn't. My point is that I don't want to just dismiss it as if, well, they just ignored it and gave me what they wanted uh purposefully. I think what's interesting is that we see the story that we kind of already know exists there, you know? Um and so reading it kind of it's not fresh eyes. I wouldn't call it fresh eyes because they're 45-year-old eyes, and I still have all of my background.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

They're not fresh, but having a break in between the last time I was really reading all the time, which would have been in my early 20s, and then now um it it it brings to light things that I didn't I just didn't realize uh were there. I think that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

So I I think that um I'm not even sure that when you talk about religious leaders like ignoring or um they may have they may actually uh be experiencing the exact same thing you're describing. Is that you just don't see it because there's no importance to you with with your with your belief set or your your pre-understanding of what the story's about you don't even see it. And so it's it's a very unintentional, right? Um because we're not looking for it. Like I was just thinking about um how you know since I started studying Stoicism, how much different my reading has become, especially with regards to uh Paul and Luke in particular, and John in particular. Um and uh and so I I don't think that like I don't think I don't think the reason I've never noticed that before, or the reason no one nobody's ever pointed it out before was um because there was an intent to not, but maybe there wasn't complete unawareness of even. Sure. Right. So um but I do think it's really interesting. I think it I think it's an interesting um practice that that you you could get into. I think I think it'd be really uh probably worthwhile is to read and say what seems to be where is a really awkward segue that the author is doing.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

That's and that's what I mean. It there's there's these really awkward segues. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

It's like what why? What happened there? And and I was just so I I pulled up, uh I pulled out my Bible, and uh look at what a good Christian pastor I am. I happen to have one right within arm's length.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Uh-huh. And you put on your glasses to let everyone know you're serious about reading.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

But no, it's so that I can actually read. Um these I hate these glasses, by the way. Um, I got them inexpensive online um because my glasses that I got from my doctor broke uh and I didn't want to spend a lot. So I have now the bifocals with the line, which is fantastic. All right, so here's here's one. It's in Luke chapter nine. The story is about Jesus healing a uh um demon-possessed man.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Boy. As the boy came forward, the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil. Um, and whenever I see stuff like this, I always want to know uh the unclean spirit. Uh-huh. Um I could get into a whole week, like I could talk uh an entire episode on translations. Um, and how you really got to be careful uh because you have to understand that even in your translations, you're reading someone's theology. Sure, of course. So uh the unclean spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father. Awe gripped the people as they saw this majestic display of God's power. Why? While everyone was marveling at everything he was doing, Jesus says to his disciples, listen to me and remember what I say. The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Perfect. Right? Perfect. It's like, wait, what? Perfect. That's exactly one of that's that is an exact example.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah. And so, but they didn't know what he meant. Well, of course, because all of a sudden it's like, what the hell are you talking about? Right. We're all celebrating here about how awesome God is and what this great display of God's power we just saw.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

And all of a sudden you're like, and by the way, the son of man will be betrayed into his gonna be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Right? And then and so and it says, uh, but they didn't know what he meant. His significance was hidden from them. So they couldn't understand it. And they were afraid to ask him about it. They were probably like, is dude losing his mind? Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

There's that. Right? But yeah, so like what is Luke, and also Luke is saying in that another thing that is interesting. The meaning was hidden from them. Yeah. Luke says the meaning is hidden from them, clearly implying that God is not allowing them to understand. And actually, there's another section that I read. And I thought, why did I never notice this before? Where Jesus says explicitly that God will make people not understand what I'm saying on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Okay. I'll give you that there are times like that. I do think that we run the risk of reading that into here.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Because he doesn't he does not specifically say that God kept them from understanding. And that could just be a uh way of saying that they were unable to identify the understanding. That's true. That's true. And so um the only reason I'm sensitive to that.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

It sounds like God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It sounds like it.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

I yes, and I'll I will I have no problem with that. Um the the issue that I have with whenever saying that, and this is what's happening here, yeah, is that too often I have sat across a table from a person who will quote a passage of scripture to me and then begin to theologically pontificate on that in a way that it's obvious that this is what the theology is on that. Sure. I get that. Okay. So um, but to the to the point, it is a really awkward segue because then from there he goes into this idea uh because then, and that's like all he says about it. Yeah. Because then it's like it shifts again to where the disciples begin to argue about who's gonna be the greatest in the kingdom. Right. And so, like, I don't know if I would want to go back and look at where does the story show up in Mark? Is this something, is this one of those that Luke is uh is seems to have been taking from Mark? Um is it part of a larger um um parocopy where uh that's a word you're gonna have to explain.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Uh let's see. Um how how would I explain that word?

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Uh a larger segment of text that is doing something different.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Right. Um so and I I think I'm using that word right now. I'm gonna have to look it up myself. Because for some reason that popped right into my head.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

And uh well, one of the things that I was um no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

No, no, no, no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

What um you know, one of the reasons that I um liked this also, and this might have been why I picked Luke, is because it has my favorite parable, my current favorite parable of the Samaritan, um, which I think is completely has been completely misunderstood, at least from my um childhood, and is misunderstood over and over again um in my opinion. Um, but I have already pontificated on that um too much. But it has that it has it has that um parable. Um what is the there's uh oh you don't have a red letter Bible. How am I supposed to know what what parts of the Bible I'm supposed to read? You don't have a red letter one.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Goodness. I probably do. I'm not bookshelf over there. Um, you're reading my uh one of my more conservative, yet still not red letter Bible. And I'm sure that there's some people that would tell you that that's not a real Bible, that that's not the right translation. Um, because apparently I did find this out. Uh I always used to think that the only uh quote unquote uh real translation was it was the King James version, because that was one that a lot of people in this area, especially in the more rural areas, are like, no, it's like that's the original. Right. But apparently there there's even an there's a now a newer version that some of the more traditional um communities are like, no, that's the real one.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Um and uh I don't know which one it is, they won't tell me.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

But uh You're not cool enough.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

I don't know. But by the way, I did look up the word and I did use it correctly, so yay for me. Congratulations. Thank you. I always like to know that if I'm gonna use a word that I'm using it right. Um unlike my Aunt Gail, who used to just make up words. And then say it with such confidence that you began to question whether or not you were right. I like her vibe. Yeah. And if you just say it a lot and you say it with confidence, then everyone else around you just shifts.

unknown 28:02

All right.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So what are you trying to find in the U.S.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

I'm trying to find another one? There was another one where at the end of talking about something, he then adds on um uh a uh uh an admonition about adultery. I'm nearly positive that's what it was, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Well, okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

So here's another one. I mentioned the the the parocopey, orocopee, however you want to. I'm not sure exactly the pronunciation because I learned the word by reading it. Yeah. Um that just means, by the way, a segment of text from a book.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Um is it it it's it's very possible that you have these large segments within the gospels where it's like Jesus teaching. He's just teaching things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like this, like for example, Sermon on the Mount. Right. Right. It's just he they're just trying to, so the author's just trying to unload as much of examples of Jesus teaching as possible. Right. And so in order to do that, you have these very uh awkward, you have these very awkward um segues. And it could be, I don't know, but it could be that that's the case. It's like, well, gosh, we've got to figure out how to get this next one in.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

But it's also very possible if we were willing to sit in a, and I would want to do it in a group and say, what are some possible reasons for this particular like why does this one follow this one? Does this one follow this one? Does this one follow this one? Because I would like to think that there might be some logical progression, at least from the author, on why he would have that statement follow that statement. But I I don't know that for sure. Because I know, you know, uh one of the things I was taught in in school in seminary was the most important part of a sermon are actually your segues.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Why? Because if you if you shift too quickly, if you mess up your segue.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

If you shift too quickly, everyone, you you you jolt everyone so much that they become un they become disengaged from what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Um so is it possible that that okay, so then is it possible that the reason the segues in here are so violent, such a violent shift, that is to actually draw your attention.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Yeah, maybe back in. Yeah, I gotta I gotta find the uh You didn't sound convinced by that.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

You're like, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

No, I think no, I can I can imagine that. No, it's like a uh it's like a comedian who um is uh who's doing a joke and then shifts right to something else and then points and then hangs a lantern on it. Sometimes that's the strategy.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Do you know that I learned public speaking? One of the one of the people I learned public speaking from was an actual comedian. And at one point he had been a writer for SNL. Oh yeah. I got I had an opportunity to meet with him, to hang out with him, have a few drinks with him. He and I were both invited to speak at a conference together. And um, he was talking about public speaking. And um, and I was talking about design thinking. And so the two of us were, it was in South Georgia and um in Macon and um of all places. And yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, you used to write for SNL? And he was like, Yeah. And he now lives out in um, I think he's in Colorado now. For a while he was in LA, but he's a comedian and and uh he he entered into ministry. But he was, you want to talk about someone that knows how to get your attention and keep your attention or stand-up comedians.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Yeah, stand-up comedians are the some of the best rhetoric rhetoricians. Rhetoricians, yeah. Rhetoricians. Yeah. I can't say that word.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah. Yeah, he um and he really helped me with Segway. Because he he liked used Jay Leno as an example of some of the best Segway you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

You know?

SPEAKER_03 31:45

Yeah, um, I remember Krista talking about that when she went to a see a stand-up one time, or I mean, years and years ago, maybe 10, 15 years ago, and how she was really impressed with um the crowd work in particular and how this comedian worked back into their set and then to the crowd and then back to the set, and how it felt to her. I mean, there's a ton of improv, but it felt to her like um like he was, I think it was a he, I don't know, um, was like surfing on the on the crowd. And there's something instinctive, and it's clearly true. This is actually something I'm very interested in. Uh in uh Roman Republic, during the Roman Republic, really during the Republic, it phases out. Still, it comes back in later as um as a uh kind of a novelty, but once you have the Imperium, that because the Senate is so much less important, um the discipline of rhetoric becomes less important. But during the Republic, so for you know, what, 250 years, 300 years or so, the the um being educated in rhetoric was a was a top level like um educational discipline. That was something you would send your kids to mostly Greek slaves, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Um I was just reading, I was just reading about Seneca. Yeah. And they were talking about his training and yeah, and all that.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

And so I was always when I was when I learned about that initially in college, I was I always kind of had this, I wouldn't say it out loud, but I kind of had this feeling of like, oh, isn't that quaint? Because because rhetoric is about how you deliver the message, it's not about content, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's ridiculous, some of it. Yeah. Um but it's and that's how I felt. I was like, well, this is ridiculous. You're spending all your they must have been, I kind of had in my mind, like, well, that's because they were more simple people than us, right? Um, we've developed, we progressed past them. Yeah, we have video now. Because they well, they didn't understand. They were, they were more, well, they were more simple-minded. And so they focused on these things that are it's it's not important how you deliver the message. The importance is the content, the message. That's what's important, right? Oh, now who's being simple? Yeah, right. Well, and right, okay, so about five to ten years ago, I was reconsidering this, listening, you know, I'm listening to my podcasts and you know, whatever, and um reading more Roman history and stuff. And I was having some conversation. I think I was talking to Krista about this, but we were commenting on how um there's really no content, no information. I know I'm gonna get some hackles up about this. There is no information out there that you have to go to college for to get really. Everyone knows now that if you want to fix something, go to YouTube. But if you want to learn the history of something, you can find it on YouTube, you can Google it, you can find it. Now, I'm not saying that all the information is correct that you're gonna get, but it's all there. Virtually everything. I mean, Google how a star dies, Google how nuclear fission works, right? And all the information is there almost for free, right? That's how virtually all content, like all the information is now. And so when all the content is free, all of a sudden the thing that matters is if you can get somebody to believe you that your con your thing is the real thing is the true thing. And that guy over there who's saying that you're wrong isn't that he's wrong. Well, that's rhetoric. So now we're in a position, and maybe this has always been the case, but it occurred to me, oh my gosh, rhetoric is the most important skill then.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Well, okay, I'm thinking medium's a message. I think that aligns with that, right? Yeah. Is what are you doing? So the other thing, too, that I'm thinking about is the debate between um Kennedy and Nixon. Yeah. Right? Where the people that watched it on TV were sure that Kennedy won. Yeah. People that listen to it on the radio were sure that Nixon won. Yeah. And I think that um to me, because you know, when you talk about rhetoric and I and I think about like, do you ever see them, do you ever watch the show Rome? Yep. Okay. Absolutely. Remember when the one of the um centurions, they've they want him to run for uh uh an elected position. Vaguely. I okay, yeah. We loved that show. Anyway, he's having he they're teaching him the art of rhetoric, and it's about like how do you move your arms in what position and all that. And it's because we there's so much visual that determines what's true for us. Which is of course, right? Yeah, absolutely. And the the YouTube video thing you're talking about. If my YouTube video is more attractive than your YouTube video, and we're talking about the same thing, and we disagree, people are going to believe my YouTube video because it looks better.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Obviously. We are not frontal lobe creatures. We are animals who have a frontal lobe that one, I don't know, you even know how to how how to time this, but call it once an hour activates and tells us a story about something or whatever, you know, I don't know. But you're absolutely right. We can look at like that show that you're talking about, and we can go, that's so funny that they're positioning his arms in a particular way or whatever, but that's just cultural. I know instinctively my cultural body positioning put me up because I be because I learned public speaking at a young age um and enjoyed it, and then took every opportunity I could to uh to enhance that for myself. My wife as well. Krista's, I mean, Krista's, that's an enormous part of her career is public speaking. Um we both did this in college. I just instinctively know the body language that I should have in front of an audience. And it's you can I I know that you could give me content and somebody else who doesn't understand how to deliver a message, the same content. You could give them better content, way better content. You could give them an entire speech. This is not me bragging. This is just this, I just know how to do this. Because you're familiar with the medium. I'm comfortable with the medium. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Yeah. Absolutely. Uh well, and and I also think you mentioned culture. We we have a tendency when we visually identify with there's positive aspects of what we're seeing. Right. So, like for example, in our culture, an attractive, fit person is a lot more likely to believe, be believed than a sloppy, overweight person. Because we find the one more attractive than we do the other.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

And I would say that in particular, that might cross uh I know it does cross culture. It might be close to universal just because of evolutionary reasons. But but to your point, um here's an example. If I get up to deliver a message in a suit, or I get up to deliver a message in a flowing white robe, well, the suit is going to convey, everything conveys something that's going to convey a much different thing than the flowing white robe.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah. Well, and that that's a good example of the flowing white robe with church jarring. Within churches, even. Yes. Right. So, like, there, like, okay, there was a several years ago, um, I had a I had a meeting with my district superintendent at the time and the bishop at the time. And there was a brief moment where I was being considered for a uh a larger church. And um I was told that I was too folksy. And I was highly offended at first until I looked up the word and I was like, no, actually, you're absolutely right. I'm way too folksy. And it's because the the expectation there, what they what they're what they can hear and what they give credence to and what they give authority to is someone who's gonna wear a suit every Sunday. Sure. Right. Um, and there are some churches, there are some communities where if you're not in a robe, then that we then then we're not as willing to hear you. This community that we have right now, if I were to stand up in a robe on Sunday and it wasn't Easter or it wasn't it even Easter this year, I didn't wear my robe anymore. Right. When I first got here, there's sort of an expectation I'd wear my robe every Sunday. Now, if I stood up in a robe, people would be like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Something's happening.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Or when I show like I did wear a suit on Easter, and a lot of people were like, well, it's Easter. But if I started wearing a suit every Sunday, it would be it would be people would be a little it would be jarring.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

It conveys something. Everything that's the thing that is that I think is is important for people to realize is that everything about your image conveys something. The thing you might be conveying is, or the thing you might want to convey, if I took this, yeah, is I don't give a crap what I convey. That might be what you want to convey, but you're conveying that.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah right.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

I mean, um getting a tattoo conveys something, right? Having an having piercings. None of these are inherently have any moral um uh but I can't think of the right word. They have no basis in morality fundamentally.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Right. We'll we'll put we'll put a uh we'll put a moral value on it. But it's not of course we will.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

And and I could I could see situations where there where I could come up with a um a moral judgment that I would agree with about that. For instance, if I'm trying to um get under the skin of my grandmother by wearing something with a swear word, let's say, on it, right? I think I could come up with a moral judgment for that. But fundamentally, that's that is just a sound. That's just a bunch of colors on a shirt. It's literally nothing. However, it's clear that I'm trying to convey something, right? It's not this thing that we do that I think younger people do, and it's totally normal for younger people to do this as they're growing through a developmental stage where they're trying to come up with their identity. But the thing, I think if we don't grow, if we don't, if we don't get past it, it can become a little pathological as an adult, where we go, I'm just being me. I'm not, I'm not giving any message. I'm not conveying any message, I'm just being me. That is just untrue. That is the thing that you're conveying. What you're conveying is I am a person who doesn't give a crap about what you think. Whatever. Right. There's something, you're saying a thing.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah. Even in the even in the moment when you're saying I don't care, you're making a statement about I don't care. Right. So, okay. Have you ever heard of Charles Cooley?

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Sounds a little strange. Familiar with that.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Well, I okay, so I I've been doing this thing lately where I get these uh philosophical quotes. Okay. And um and then I get to think about them, or I am actually kind of processing. Anyway, I th I loved this one. I am not what I think I am. And I am not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am. Sure. I was like, that's it's hard to say, but it's brilliant. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Um that's a way of trying to describe the um avatar creation that we're doing. Yeah. That's what we're that's what we're doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

But I've just but even even if I'm trying to portray an indifference.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

I'm trying to portray an indifference because I care. Of course. Which is hilarious. It's and it all, I mean, everything. I mean it's hilarious, not because I'm like making fun of you or whatever, but it's hilarious when you stop and actually process the process. Yeah. Of course. Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

There's a uh there's a scene in um uh one of our favorite shows, Dairy Girls.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Love that show, by the way. We loved it too.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Okay. Uh good. I'm glad that you I I think maybe we talked about it before, but um, where uh the main character um Which they're all like 35 years old pertaining to high school, yes. Which is yeah. Um actually I think it's I think it's the very first episode in one of the first scenes where she's um going back to school and she's gonna wear a jean jacket instead of her instead of her um she's at a all Catholic girl school, of course, because it's Northern Ireland. And she's she's not gonna wear her her blazer, she's gonna wear a jean jacket. And then her mom like makes her wear the blazer and she comes around the corner and her friend Claire, who had a jean jacket on also, is like, What are you doing? We're gonna be different. We're gonna be um uh uh we're gonna be individuals. And uh and she goes, Sorry, my mom said I couldn't. And Claire takes off her jean jacket and she goes, Well, I'm not gonna be an individual by myself. And then she puts on her blazer, which is obviously it's perfect for high schoolers, but like that's clearly what that's clearly what we do. I I've not really well, I understand, I understand the impulse. Like I could, I could describe why somebody has an impulse to not want to to want to show that they're an individual, that they're not part of this, that they're not gonna conform. I can understand it. Um it doesn't it's not something I well I was gonna say it's not something I relate to, and then I can hear my wife go, come on. Um but I like the idea. I like the idea of being able to figure out how to fit in with any culture. I just like that idea for myself. I like the idea of I can, I'm not, well, see, this is this is where my wife, she's listening to it. She goes, come on, you think you're the most individual of all individuals. I like the idea of being like, I'm not part of anything, and I can be a part of everything. Right. That makes me feel like I'm like that's my ego, you know. That's like that makes me feel like I'm superior somehow, you know. I get it. But I like the rhetoric discipline because of that.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

So let's roll it back. All right. So we talked about medium is message. We we talked about the importance of being able to like how visualization, being able to see really fully impacts the what's being said. And so it's not necessarily just the content, but it's the it's the um just the way the content is presented, which is the whole concept of rhetoric. Uh, and then we talked about the uh importance of segue in that communication part. And even if your content is really good, but your segues are really bad, that also is too jarring. Yep. And so the visual can't be too jarring, but it has to be appealing. Segways have to be appealing, they can't be too jarring. And at the end of the day, if you are doing, if you are creating something that is jarring, you're probably very likely anyway, doing it in order to draw attention to that because it's something that is done intentionally, knowing that otherwise you're actually distracting, detracting from your message. So segues within the scriptures that you're pointing out in the gospels that seem to be non sequitur, that seem to not fit. And then even because some of them don't even seem to be segue, right? Like the one that we looked at. Right. It's like, uh, oh, he healed and look how wonderful. And as they're all amazed at how he's healing, he said, Yeah, guess what? He's gonna be betrayed. Right. And then, like, well, who's gonna be the greatest in the kingdom? It's like, wait, what? Right. How does that fit? And so maybe, maybe it's just an attempt to try to jam as much information in as they possibly can. And there's a larger story, the paracope, the para, the paracope, I've I think it's parakopy, but anyway, um, this idea of what is the larger content that's happening, is there is the progression of we're kind of we're moving towards within the gospels. We know that we're moving towards when the quote unquote, depending on which gospel you're reading, the Son of Man uh the, you know, is going to be betrayed, is going to be handed over. Um, is that just this is a moment of that? And then we're gonna go on to that. It's just like a little, hey, don't forget, this is what's happening. This is what's happening. This is a greater story. There's a little glimpse of it. Or is there something that was supposed to jar us that we're supposed to stop for a second? Maybe in this one, it's, oh, we're all so excited about like God, and we all think, oh, we're so pleased with God. But at the end of the day, that's not even gonna be enough. Being amazed by the miracle, maybe that's the point. Maybe in that particular one, the point is we think that it would be enough if we could just experience and witness miracles, that then we wouldn't have done the same thing that everyone else did. But at the end of the day, miracles aren't even going to be enough to keep this from happening.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Maybe that's the point. I don't know. I would be interested in knowing if anybody's listening and anybody wants to bother, to email me and let me know what you think. So how's that? Does that wrap it? Yeah. Is that bring it to back together? Let's do it. Did I? Did we I think so? Put a bow on the end of it. I don't know. Who knows? Did we disagree on anything? I don't think so. I don't think so. Who cares?

SPEAKER_03 50:33

It's our podcast. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

But I mean, if we can try to find common ground, but if we never if we never left common ground, then we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah, I know. I have topics um that I will email you that have um stuff that we'll disagree on.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

Okay. Uh well I have a topic that I don't know if we'll disagree on, but I think it would be interesting to talk about, and it'll allow me to talk a little bit more about my trip too, is this idea of memory and how most of our memories are fabrications in order to maintain the narrative that we tell ourselves. Okay.

unknown 51:10

All right.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

Till next time. Yeah, thanks. See ya.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

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