Between and Beyond the Sheets

Some conversations are better had honestly. This is one of them.

Jill — aesthetics and wellness expert and owner of Avenue Beauty Science — and Melissa — co-owner of The Rosetree Center for Healthy Sexuality — are two women who have seen enough of life to know that the most important conversations are the ones we're least likely to have out loud.

Between the Sheets is where those conversations live. Love, marriage, sex, friendship, desire, identity, aging, and everything that gets complicated in between. Not a lecture. Not a therapy session. Just two women, zero filters, and the kind of honest dialogue that makes you feel like you're not the only one.

Whether you're married, single, figuring it out, or somewhere in the middle — pull up a chair. We went there so you don't have to go alone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome back to Pretty Wise, the podcast dedicated to Welcome back to Pretty Wise, the podcast dedicated to fun and thoughtful conversations about aging and health and everything in between. Today I have a fun special guest with me. Someone who I met, I feel like, in the most organic way possible. I feel like how I meet most of my friends uh these days, but we were playing tennis. And um the minute I met her and we got to talking, we became fast friends. And um it's one of those people that, you know, within a few seconds of talking with her, you just feel so comfortable and you feel like you could say anything and you're not gonna be judged, or it's just like fun and funny. And um, and I feel like that doesn't happen a lot in your 50s. So um it was a kind of a special relationship. So I'd like to introduce you to Melissa O'Neill DeBosch, who she's and did I say it right? Dobish. Dobish, dang. Yeah, no, it's fine. Right. Dobish. Uh she is a tennis player. I am a mom. Yes, a therapist, a business owner, all of it, a community leader. Sometimes. Okay. What else are you? Are you a dog mom?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I'm not. We were thinking about it. Okay. We're on the fence about that. We're not necessarily don't jump into that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I've heard that. And she is the owner of the Rose Tree Center for Healthy Sexuality. Healthy sexuality.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Located in Media, Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah. So maybe why don't you start talking about how you got started in this field, what you do? Because I think it's really interesting when I got to talking with you about your your job. Like you don't just handle sexual health stuff with couples and singles, but it's like forensic sexuality, which is really cool and really interesting. I bet you have so many interesting stories.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So forensic psychology, right? So I started out um well, let me let me take you all the way back.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Take me back.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

See, I'm gonna take you all the way back. So I grew up in Delaware County. Um, let me give out a shout out to my Delco Peeps, uh-huh. Um, in a in a town called Collingdale, Pennsylvania. So it was like lower income. Um what high school was that? That was well, I didn't go to the public school, so I think it was like Penn East or Pendelco.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Okay, Pendelco, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, something like that. And so I didn't I didn't go to school in the school district. So my my parents got divorced when I was very, very young. They had me when they were in their early 20s, so just that in and of itself, like they weren't really prepared.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Were they married?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

At all. They were married and then they quickly got divorced. And I think I was, I don't know, four. It was super, super young. Um, and they didn't get along, and it's that was that was very difficult growing up, not having parents who got along or who could kind of come together for um the sake of of me, right? And like put their own stuff aside for the sake of their child. They couldn't do that. And that we see that a lot today, too, like parents who really have a hard time just getting their act together and putting their stuff aside for the sake of their children. Um, some parents ultimately do that, you know, others don't, and and the kids suffer, just FYI. Sad, yeah. It's just true. So my mom was quite I I I grew up with my mom primarily, and then she got remarried when I was in high school. Um, my relationship with her was quite dysfunctional, and it still is. We're we're we're I don't know if you'd call it estranged, but we, it's a crunchy relationship. It's a very dysfunctional relationship. It's a relationship that I have tried over and over and over to figure out and and and to be what she wants me to be, but there is there is none of that, right? And so this is this is this is a template for a lot of relationships. A lot of people are in relationships where they're just not getting their needs met and they don't know how to cut it off, and they don't know how to set boundaries and they don't know how to say, no, I this isn't good for me. This is impeding on my self-care. Like with my mom, like with a parent, it's almost like I'm addicted, right? Like I keep going back to something. What do I keep going back to? I keep going back to the love, unconditional love that I'm trying so desperately to get, the approval and the acceptance, right? And that's what every child wants from their parent, is those things. And that's what I kind of keep trying to go back to for her, but she just she's devoid, she can't give it to me. So that's some kind of like something that I am trying to figure out and work through that relationship, that cycle in my head.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Does she know that you have this desire to get there, or does she not, is she kind of oblivious to all this and is just kind of living her life? Or does it know that you, you know, you're working on it and she's trying to work on it too?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Like is it a no, she works on nothing. Nope, she's not working on anything. Um, she it took me a little while to figure out kind of like what her issue was like growing up, because I I I sense that it was like there was something wrong. I sense that there was something dysfunctional. I sense that our relationship was off given the position that I was being put in over and over and over again as a child. And in high school, I had a psychology class. I think I was a junior or senior, and I it was like magic. It was like magic. I I I was diagnosed with ADHD, so I had a very difficult time learning. But when I went to that class and I started reading, it was like answers to questions that I had about my whole entire family system. Wow. It was right in the psychology books, right? Like, okay, this makes sense about that one, this makes sense about this one. It's taken me a really long time to figure out my mother because we are very, we're we're very, very close. Um, you know, like it's it's difficult for any person to diagnose any other person close to them or try and figure out what's going on there with that other person because I'm completely subjective, right? And so just understanding what I know now about psychology, about mental health, she clearly like has stuff going on that's untreated. So in high school, I've I decided that I wanted to pursue this. So to get back to your question, it's it was honestly a calling for me, right? I got a little disjointed at college through through college. I went to, I was supposed to go to Widener, wound up not going there, I wound up want going to another place in Charleston, South Carolina called Johnson Wales University. I'm not a cook. Yeah, it's a big chef school. My friend was going there. I thought it was in Rhode Island. There's another one. Yeah, that's the main campus. And then this one that I went to was a satellite campus in Charleston. And Charleston is a blast. Yeah. Charleston, South Carolina, I got to live there for four years. It was just not the right fit. It was not the right fit for me. A little off track. Yeah. Okay. So and so after that, I kind of got back on track. And um, I had a moment with a my my mom was watching one of her friends' kids, and the child was, I don't know, between like six and ten at the time, and she was struggling. And I was contemplating on whether or not to go back to to graduate school to pursue this more. Like, what was I going to do with my life? I was in my early 20s, and I was talking to her, and she was telling me about her problems, and I was like, now I know what I want to do. Like, so it was it was kind of like that. It was yeah, it was kind of like um, and and yeah, it it's definitely a calling. I definitely love what I do. It's not for everybody. How did you get into the sexual health though? So I got pregnant when I was 25 and I wasn't married at the time, and the the the my oldest daughter's biological father decided that he didn't want to be in our lives or have anything to do with that. So wait, what was your question? I'm always forgetting.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Uh how did you get like what made you uh want to get into sexual health?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, I had so I was pregnant with her. I needed, I was pr trying to figure out what I wanted to do with graduate school. I was eight months pregnant, I got accepted into Villanova University. This person, I believe his is he's deceased now, but his name was Ken Davis, I believe. And he took mercy on me and decided to, you know, I applied. Um, but I was in a bad situation. I was went to a non-traditional school, then I had some credits from Delaware County. So it was kind of like a little bit, a little bit. I'm showing up eight months pregnant into his office, you know. He's like, he took mercy on me and he gave me a shot. He gave me a shot. I went in as non-matriculated. I came out, I graduated from that program, and now I go back to Villanova University and I trained students on human sexuality. Totally cool. Yes, it is very cool. So thank you, Dr. Davis. Thank you for giving me an opportunity. It did you did the right thing there.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

How long have you opened this business, this uh the center for um I think we started in 2017, 2018.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

However, I had been working uh in the field, I've been working in the field for about 20 years. Okay. Yeah. And so I was right after I had Alec, I needed, I was in graduate school and I needed a job. I needed a J O B because I needed insurance. I was by myself, I didn't have a partner to help me out. So a place called the Joseph J. Peter, the Joseph J. Peters Institute was hiring. And this is a nonprofit organization, mental health in the city, in the city of Philadelphia, where they work with juveniles, adults, um, offenders. They do evaluations, they do group, they do individual, and they also work with victims. So I was like, okay, you're hiring. I'm gonna give this a shot. Okay. And it's sometimes like that's how things start, right? Yeah, like that's exactly how it started. Yep. And it's it's forensics. And I learned everything that I know, almost everything that I know. Like that was my foundation. And I got in there and I could do it. I could work with this population. I wasn't offended. I mean, I was offended at like what they were doing was wrong, right? What they were doing was illegal, but I wasn't taking anything that they were doing personally. Like, you know, like some therapists are like, I can't, or individuals, I can't work with this person because of what they're doing, you know, that aside. But then some people kind of like it hits home for them too much, right? And so it's just something that they don't want to pursue. I could, I could do it, and I wanted to, and I wanted to learn more about it. I wanted to learn more about why people chose, you know, healthier pathways, unhealthier pathways, sometimes illegal pathways to get their sexual needs met. And I learned group work, I learned individual, I learned how to do evaluations, which I took with me to all the other organizations that I worked with. And I eventually landed here at Rose Tree Center for Healthy Sexuality. And not alone. Um I have people that help me. Um, there's a woman, her name is Dr. Erin Lee Kelly. She helped found the name. And she also, you had you had met her. Um, we did the um workshop for for Dr. Einhorn at her practice. And uh she brings a lot of the PhD level human sexuality, you know, where she'll bring in like the stuffed clitoris or Lilith and things like that, and she'll go into all the science about it. So her and I collaborate quite a bit. And then I have also a really great team of therapists that I work with that all enjoy doing the typical the type of work that we do. So we specialize in human sexuality. So we take trainings around human sexuality. Most of the patients that we that come in to to the practice are coming in because of some sexual sexuality-related issue.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Is it like court mandated? Like they have to see a therapist? So is the people that I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, well, both. So our for our forensic population, um, most of the time, almost like 98% of the time, they're mandated. So either pre-sentence they're coming in because their lawyer has said this'll help, this will help you um like understand really better who you are, understand the legal process, also help, you know, if if if the community sees that you are taking this seriously, that you are in therapy, that you are doing the work to make amends, to repair, you know, then it's better for them overall. It, it's, it's, it's, it's about mitigating. I'm not gonna lie, it's about you know mitigating sentencing. But when they get in, it's when they come into my therapy space, it's also about like, we're we're gonna get to the bottom of this. Like, we're gonna figure out what the hell was going on, what you were doing, what you were thinking, what your intentions were, and how to thwart that, right? And how to figure out a a healthier pathway.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah. Well, this is interesting to me. I don't know if you're allowed to like talk about it, but like what are some of the things that that people child sexual abuse images?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Um is that the Yeah, child sexual abuse images. A lot of non-contact offenses are child sexual abuse images. So where folks are going online and they're searching or they're coming across it. It is, it's it's even when you're looking at mainstream porn, it is not unusual for you to find unto questionable content on the porn sites. And you really kind of have to know what you're looking at and what you know, you could click on something that looks like you're curious about that. You're not necessarily meaning to, you know, go down that rabbit hole. Although a lot of the folks that I work with do absolutely mean to go down that rabbit hole. Do they ever say, like, I didn't know? No. Well, and if they do, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. We're not gonna start with denial right here.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Does that come from always like trauma?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Like what what would possess a person to a lot of times, a lot of times. So, like personality disorders, they are their patterned behavioral responses in response to trauma. Right? So this person has been traumatized, living in a chaotic environment, you know, for a period of time. And uh like when we talk about PTSD and we talk about um, we just talk about post-traumatic stress disorder. A lot of folks think like you have to, you have to have gone through war, you have to have had like a terrible accident. Right. There's a thing called relationship trauma. And the trauma happens within the relationship because the person, like say it's your mom or a caretaker, this person is disordered, this person is traumatized themselves, this person hasn't gotten any help or healing, they haven't gotten treatment for it. And so all of those, so we have defense mechanisms when we we we just have them as human beings to begin with, but then when we're traumatized continually over time, it hijacks our brain, right? And so our approach then to relationships becomes a survival approach. Like I'm I'm getting into a new relationship with you, but unconsciously, my traumatized brain is like warning, warning, warning. This is where the trauma happened within a close relationship, right? So I'm gonna get triggered in this relationship and I'm gonna start using all of my survival skills on you, right? Which are meant to keep you away. They're meant to protect me, right? And so if I'm in a relationship and my parent, my caregiver, my primary caregiver is disordered, not healed, all that stuff is gonna get downloaded on onto the child, right? And then and then the child is going to pick up all of those, all those maladaptive coping skills that that the mother or the father is using in the relationship. What our parents do, their relationship structure, their emotional intelligence, their emotional maturity where they are, we learn from them. Right? And so what if your parent doesn't know what emotional maturity is, or they're very immature emotionally, or what if they're devoid of emotional intelligence, or what if they believe that my feelings are not my responsibility, they're your responsibility. So if you say something to me that activates me and makes me feel uncomfortable, you probably fault.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Right? When you do that to a child over and over and over again, they learn, yeah, they learn that they have to caretake my parents' feelings versus the other way around. And then what do you think like an like so an adult relationship with that person is going to that person gets out of that relationship, grows up, and then they're gonna go and formulate other relationships in their life that are going to mirror that one, that primary relationship.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, but not everybody goes out and looks at cycle kitty porn. Like, what is the the difference between a person who grew up with PTSD, bad parents, and then someone that does that, like a sexual deviant? You know, is it usually something darker than just a narcissistic parent or something?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Sometimes there's a correlation between um physical abuse. If a child has been physically abused, there's an increase in in sexual abuse on their end, like where they would they there's an increase that they're going to do that. But there's also an increase that um they're going to act out, like they're going to act out in one way or another sexually, possibly. So that's one of the reasons. Also, it's it's kind of how you're how you're raised, how you're taught to think about sex, how you're taught not to think about sex. And just like alcohol, you know, it's a pathway, it's something that gets presented to the person kind of early on. And then a lot of times, like if I'm not teaching my child about human sexuality, this is to answer your question. If I'm living in an environment or wherever that that's devoid of that type of education, then I'm gonna seek it out elsewhere. I'm gonna seek it out through maybe internet pornography. And that's gonna be my foundation for an education in human sexuality. And so that in and of itself can lead to untoward, you know, sexual deviance, if you will, right? If I'm looking at this, and I have a lot of people that come in and they they they are addicted to pornography, they're addicted to masturbation. So it started a long time ago, like in their adolescence, and it's been a progression, right? And now we have folks that are, and sometimes nothing has happened to these people in there or that they can think of. And this is just their template, this is their addiction, this is kind of their thing, this is what they've chosen to do. Just like some people choose to take heroin, some people choose to take out like drink alcohol, some people choose to overspend, some people choose to look at pornography obsessively and masturbate obsessively. Now, some people actually do meet the the word the word pedophile gets that gets thrown around a lot. Not every person that looks at child sexual abuse images, not every person that molests someone that's underage is a pedophile. There is criteria that you have to meet. In fact, in my work, I've only met probably in in the in the 20 years, maybe like a dozen, maybe two dozen, maybe like 12 people who would have met that criteria. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So what some what people also don't maybe know, um, that's not so common, is that adults, it is not uncommon for adults to be attracted to teenagers, teenage girls, teenage boys, because teenage girls and teenage boys look like adults, some of them. What is unusual and what is wrong is to act on that. But just being attracted to a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, an 18-year-old, a 19-year-old, if you're even aware that that's how old they are, is not in and of itself deviant or unusual. It's when you act on that. Right.

unknown 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Do you get um clients, or I don't know what you call them, but that are like truly uh fixed? Or is it kind of a there's no fix. Okay. What would you call it?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

There's no fixed? There's no it's it's I I I understand that I have an attraction to children. I understand that I want to be sexual, right? And it's a choice not to simply. So there are pedophiles walking around amongst us that understand that they have a problem, that are also in distress about the fact that they have a problem, and choose not to act on it. Just like I don't want to minimize it, but just like an alcoholic, right? Like myself. Right. I choose not to drink. I've been in recovery for seven years. I am an alcoholic. Um and I choose that's a problem for me. I know what's gonna happen if I take it, right? I know what's Gonna happen if I have a drink, I'll turn into a gremlin. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I know. Like ha like towards the end. In the beginning, I'm kind of fun. Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Yeah, but then when it gets dark, it's like go on with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah. Um, is it hard for you? Or is it now, yeah, I got it. Oh, well, you know what? In the beginning it was hard. In the beginning it was, it was really Jill. I didn't think I could stop. I did not think in my lifetime that I would be a person that would be a non-drinker. It was that woven into my to who I am as a person. Your blueprint, yeah. To my role, to how I perceived myself, right? To how I showed up at events. What I discovered is that I'm socially anxious. And I have been probably my whole entire life. I'm actually a little shy. Um, and that helped. Sure. Alcoholism. So people who are drinking alcoholically are not happy people. They are not happy people. If you see people drinking alcoholically and they look like they're having a good time like I did, they are not. Alcoholism, drug addiction is a job. We are not happy people. We are simply uh refueling, giving our brain what it wants, right? Because essentially, when you become addicted to anything, it's brain driven. So my brain wants this, my brain wants this, my brain wants this. So I'm going after it to give my, you know, to give my brain what it wants. It's very difficult to stop that cycle. And it is possible. But I'm so glad every day. I'm so grateful every day that I chose to stop drinking. My life has been a 180. 180. I would have never met you. Yeah. I would have never met Julie. I would have never met Susan. I would have never met any of you. You wouldn't be playing tennis. Because I wouldn't be playing tennis. I was in a bar. I was, I was, I was on a bar stool. Right. That that's that's that that's where my focus was. You know, drinking, having, excuse me, having fun. Like I literally went from a bar stool to a tennis court. When I decided to stop drinking. It's pretty awesome. When I thanks. When I decided to stop drinking, like because I'm a therapist, I kind of know what I need to do. I work in addiction, so I know you need to go to AA meetings. I know you need to, you know, get yourself a therapist. I know you need to have I don't have a sponsor. Um, I know you need to, you know, get into some sort of group stuff. I started working with horses. Um, I did that for a little bit, just like, you know, going to the bar and figuring out how to, you know, put their stuff on. Obviously, I didn't didn't pursue that further, but I loved, you know, being there and working with their and kind of connecting with horses are magical animals, you know what I mean? And I've heard this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know much about horses. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

And connecting with them and being with the people there and connecting with the people there. But then ultimately I decided to. I actually tried to get my kids to play tennis first. And they were like, leave us alone, mom. We don't want to play tennis, we want to do other things. And then I was like, you know what? I remember sitting at um the Westtown School. Because that's where I started taking lessons, but then that's where also my youngest daughter was taking lessons too. I remember sitting on the bleachers and thinking to myself, WTF.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, why am I sitting here?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Right. And why am I forcing my child to do something that she absolutely doesn't want to do when I want to do it? Right. It's like right then and there, I got his name. His name was Fozzle.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Oh, I know Fozzle. Yeah, Fozzle's the famous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

I love Fozzle.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Called him up on the phone. I was like, yo, man. I was like, can you hook me up with some tennis lessons? And he hooked me up with a lady named Claire. I love Claire. So Claire and I started this adventure together. I don't see Claire anymore. Does she still play? I'm sure she does. She's a pro. She was really awesome. And I I loved, I loved her as a as a pro. She she gave me a foundation, she helped me get started. And then the rest is history. Right. Then I started at the Y, then I got on Teams, and here we are.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

And they say it's the healthiest sport. Now, you know, we can put that in air quotes because I'm sure there's a lot of factors of why it's called the healthiest, healthiest sport to play. But, you know, the theory is that it's using not only your brain, all your muscles, not just, you know. I mean, I guess any sport you could say this about, but also being outside, being part of a community, yeah, reaction time. Those are all things that, like, you know, you need for healthy lips.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Actually, it informs our health span. I was reading 10 years or something.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

100%. Yeah. The the social, yeah, the social connection, the physical connection, being outside, thinking about the sport, you know, all that kind of stuff, especially the physical and especially the social, those inform your health span. So when they say that tennis players live longer, I understand why. It's not just the physical piece. Yeah. It's like, like, look at this. Like we met, we're tennis players, and look, we're having this conversation and we're connected and we're continuing that connection, right? And that makes you happy, and that makes me happy as human beings. Human beings thrive off of connection with one another. Right. When we don't have that connection, we kind of shrivel up.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Oh, totally. Uh-huh. I mean, that's another reason why, you know, the the COVID years, I look back still, and I'm I sort of have PTSD from that, like what we did, uh, what happened then and how we shut so much off. It was terrible. Uh, total other sidebar. So you also see um regular couples, not just I work with couples and individuals.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah, couples and individuals who are going through whatever it is that they're going through. Yeah, what is it? What are they going through? Tell us because I'll tell you. A lot of times couples come in, their performance issues, um, pain with sex, all these things are completely legitimate and we work them out. At the core, at the the core issue, about 97% of the time is communication. Uh-huh. There is a there is a significant and severe breakdown in communication between these two people.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Communication is, we think about it and we do it every day, right? Like, I'm communicating with you now, you're gonna go home, communicate to your patients, talk with your family, all this kind of stuff. But like, how are we communicating? What are we communicating? And when we really need to have a conversation that's uncomfortable, are we making time and space for that? Right? Is is there connection, is there room and space in our relationship for me to be able to say what I need to say to you? And you take full responsibility for any emotion that's coming up, like you're not gonna blame me, right? For how it is that I'm that that you're feeling in response to what I'm saying. A lot of a lot, the conversation stops when that happens.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Wait, can we talk about that again for a second? So you're saying if if I say something to you because I'm trying to get a little dig, I want to, you know, hurt your feelings for whatever reason. Right. It's not my responsibility if you get sad or you get offended or you get hurt or you get it's mine because that feeling came up inside of me, right? But if I never said it, you wouldn't have felt it.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So do I I have no responsibility or don't do or do if I ask you to take accountability, like if I say, hmm, this like okay, I'm feeling activated, I'm feeling frustrated, I'm feeling angry. Am I taking a minute to process that through? What does this feeling really mean for me? What what even is the feeling that I'm feeling, right? A lot of times, no, that doesn't happen. Like you'll say something to me and then I'll just react, right? And then make it your fault. Or then we'll get into an argument, or I'll say something triggering back to you. What needs to happen is one of us needs to take a minute and process our feelings, right? You said something to me, I got activated by that. I need to process that a little bit. Why am I getting activated by it? But what if it's an insult and something hurtful? And if I'm emotional, like if you if I get emotional over that, that's probably not the best time for me to talk to you. Uh-huh. Right? Because if I'm emotional, then I'm not rational.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

So you're just getting all of my emotions. Uh-huh. And also it's showing to the person that said the offensive thing, me in this example, like you're like, I get what you're saying. Like later, if we talk about it, you could be like, why would you want to hurt me? Why would you say something that you know would hurt me? And then I would say, Why do I want to you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So I get what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Correct. Like, and there's there can be an accountability thing there, right? Yeah. But what if you say something to me, you're just giving me feedback. Yeah. You're not meaning to hurt my feelings at all or say anything to me, and I get activated. Yeah. And I tell you, and now I'm mad at you. Uh-huh. You give me the cold shoulder, you give me the silent treatment.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Something's going on with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Exactly. Some people believe that if if a feeling gets activated in me and you're the person that's standing right before me, right? Or I'm having a conversation with you, then you're to blame. Not I need to take accountability for my own feelings because that feeling was already there. Where is that feeling coming from? That feeling could be really, really old.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Right. That feeling could have just been activated by something that you said, but really have nothing to do with what's going on here in the present day. Right. Right. And so that's why it's important. That's why it's important that we process our feelings and stop being so reactionary. Right? Like, forget about what the other person said. What's coming up inside of me and why.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

And you know what? That's hard to do. That's a hard reflection in the moment. Yeah. To say. It's 100% a practice. I talk.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

We just want to knee-jerk and say, uh-huh, F you. You know, whatever. I don't know. Our feelings are our responsibility. Okay. Your feelings are your responsibility. It's a part of taking ownership.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

For for who we are, for what's coming up inside of us.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

So you see that a lot with couples because I've and I don't know, you tell me, but like with sex with sex, it's like that's the tangible piece of communication, or that's the thing that manifests, right? So if like so is it like couples aren't having sex or they they're not doing what that is, or there's incompatibility with drives.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Oh, well. Right? Sure. So there's that, and there's incompatibility with drives. But then like then emotions come in to the mix, right? Like, what if you're feeling more sexual than me regularly? And I want to pursue sex with you, but you're like, yo, I'm not really feeling it. Am I getting, am I feeling abandoned? Am I feeling rejected? Am I talking to my partner about all those feelings that are coming up? Am I giving my partner ample time to respond and reflect on what I'm saying? Right? Have we tried to work that out first? Right. Right. Yeah. A lot of the times, no, a lot of the times is this person isn't meeting my needs. I want this. I'm not getting it. Why not? And they don't really have the tools to figure out how to get how how to make everybody happy. Everybody can be happy in a relationship if we know how to talk to one another, right? If we know how to negotiate, if we know how to communicate. And if there's an agreement between us, like some couples don't have that agreement between them. Some couples aren't really friends. Like, are you friends with your husband? And do you want to be? I do. Yeah. Like I want him to be my friend. I want to I want to riff with him. You know, I want to give him a high five. Yeah, yeah. You know, I want to chill, right? I don't want it to just be what I saw between my parents.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah. You know. Do you see that a lot? You know, they say, is it still like 50% of marriages end in divorce?

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Is that still the the I don't know what the percentage is, but I would say it's it's it's high. It's probably still really high. It is why are people getting married to begin with? Uh I don't know. What do you mean? Like, are we getting married for the right reasons? I see. Are we get are you getting married just to have sex with someone?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

And why would you do that? But don't aren't people getting married so much later now? And so I don't think that's really the reason anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Well, depending on what community you're in. Yeah. Like if you're in a reformist Christian community, you're 100% doing that. And I know that because half of my my biological dad and his his um I guess she's she's his wife. She's just they're estranged a little bit. And his and his um my my half siblings, they all are part of that community.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

But then one might argue that those is that the highest rate of divorce of reformist Christians that get married because they want to have sex. No, it's more like the loosey goosey. This is like a fun thing that we're gonna do, but I'm not really dedicating, you know, my life to you. I'm not right, you know. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I I don't I don't know. I don't really I don't believe that people really understand fully what a marriage is. Yeah, right? Marriage is a business agreement. Marriage is partnership, it's a business partnership, it's a friendship, it's a sexual partnership, right? Like we're co-parenting together. We're essentially running a business.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah, that's true. And it's hard to know when you're 28. Uh-huh. You know, uh-huh. What do you what would you tell young people who are thinking about getting married?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Think about it more. Yeah. Like with my own daughter, you know, she she she was thinking like she was in a relationship with this kid, and she's like, they broke up, and she's like, Mom, I thought he was the one. You're 24 years old. Your brain isn't even done developing, let alone his. What are you thinking about right now, right? Like, and have you thought that through? Like, what is really marriage? What does it really mean? You know, things do change when you get married. The people necessarily don't change, but the expectations are that much higher, right? And is marriage, is marriage necessary in the relationship right now, right? Like, really kind of thinking through, like when people come into my office, I I oftentimes ask them, what were your intentions for getting married? Why? Was it to co-parent? You know, was it to raise children? Was it to build a business? Um, was it for other reasons? Pressure, yeah, from whoever. All all that, all that. So I think just kind of like just from the from the start, I would encourage people just to think through, like just processing what are my intentions for getting married?

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And really what is marriage and and what does this mean for my life, right? It's easy to get married. It's really difficult to get a divorce. It's time and money. Time and money. Marriage is a business agreement between you, the other person, and the state. You know what I mean? You go through that, it doesn't work out. What what happens then?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

But that said, you you believe in marriage, yeah, right? Like you think it's uh when it works, it's a beautiful, glorious thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah. I also believe in premarital counseling too. Uh-huh. Like understanding the person. You're getting into.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Well, because a lot of times people get married and they're expecting the other person to change. People don't change. People need to peep you need to give somebody a really good reason to do so. And then they need to buy in. Right? A lot of people can't even change themselves. What are you even doing trying to change somebody else? Like I challenge, change yourself first. You want to change your spouse, change yourself first. Right? You want respect, you want honesty, you want loyalty, you show up that way. Like, stop telling me what you want. You show up that way. And then you'll get it. And if you're not getting it, then you'll move to a different relationship. Not every relationship is for everybody either, right? And sometimes people just don't know how to get out of relationships.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Have you had a lot of success stories? Like, or is it more just you're kind of chugging along, feeling like, oh, day after day, or do you feel like what you're doing is really helping and making change?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I absolutely feel like what I'm doing is really helping and making change. I get, I get feedback, you know, I get people who tell me, and I it doesn't happen all the time, and we don't really solicit like as a as a therapist. I'm not soliciting feedback, right? I'm not asking people like what they think, but when I when they say it to me, or you see it with your eyes, right? Or I see it with my eyes, I like suck it up and I'm like, thank you so much for sharing that with me, or sharing that with me about one of my contractors. I'll get feedback on from one of my contractors. It's showing up for somebody, you know, it's showing up and having unconditional positive regard, right? And and and holding space for someone and their emotions, which a lot of people can't do with each other. It's a practice to hold your, to feel really intense feelings, hold them and leave enough space for somebody to have their own in the same moment with you. That's required as a parent. And a lot of parents can't do that for their kids. You know? Yeah, that's a big deal. Emotional development is a big deal. Relationships, um, there's famous psychologists who say this all the time, but the uh the quality of your relationship equals the quality of your life. It is a hundred percent true. Where in your life don't you have a relationship with a person, place, system, or thing? Right? You have a relationship here with Westchester Studios, the system. I heard you when I was in the bathroom speaking with this young man. You're in relationship. You're in relationship with the studio, right? You have a relationship with me. You just bought a new car, you have a relationship with that dealership, you have a whole family at home, five people waiting for you. You have a relationship with that with that whole entire system and each individual in that system. That's a lot of relationships, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah. That's not even to count work and casual work. Yeah. All that. Yeah. All that's true. Yeah, and your point is that that go ahead, keep going.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

The approach, our approach to relationships, what does that look like? And is that gleaning us to is that gleaning what we want out of our relationships, right? Um, some people are miserable because they have mental health issues that aren't that aren't treated, that their circumstances are are poor. Um, and those people probably have crunchy relationships because they're bringing all that, all the negativity, all of the untreated trauma, all the stuff into the relationship with them, right? So it really matters if we're clear, how clear we are, how healed we are, and how we show up for other people, how we show up for ourselves. How we show up for ourselves. Can every relationship be saved? No. No, and it shouldn't. Relationships have an some relationships have an expiration date. And they should. A hundred percent. And you should honor that. When it's done, it's done. And if we keep we keep we keep beating a dead horse literally, both of us are just gonna get hurt. Yes, absolutely. Relationships have an expiration date. And a lot of times, you know, it's it's it you may really love the person, like you may really care about the person, but it's not the person for you, right? For whatever reason, they're they're not your person. And that's okay. It's okay to love someone and to say to them, you know what, I love you, but this isn't this isn't gonna work out.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

This isn't suiting me, helping me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

And sometimes we don't we don't have to always kick somebody out of our life. Sometimes we just need to place them, right? Like so sometimes not everybody belongs here. Right? I don't have to give every single person in my life everything that I have because they might not deserve it, they might not warrant it, right? So some people are real close, other people are a little bit further out, some people are a little bit further out. You see what I'm saying? True. So we don't always have to just kick somebody out of our life. Maybe sometimes we just have to place them in a different spot. Different bucket. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

This is interesting that you do this. Yeah, the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, why? Why do you think why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Um, I think it it's um well, I think it's really courageous and brave of you to put yourself out there in such a way. Yeah. And then to find interesting people to talk to. Yeah. Um, and also what you do for a living. You know, you're in the healthcare field, you know, you're working with people all the time. You're in people's faces, like literally. You know what I mean? And then you do this.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Well, and I think I I talked about this on other like when I first started doing the podcast. The whole reason is because I started realizing that there was a lot to being our age. And like the the manifest was the wrinkles, so they would come in to want help for me to help them fix their wrinkles, and inevitably we'd wind up talking about, you know, aging parents and marriage changes and kids leaving home. And it was like, it was like, whoa, there's so much going on. And I felt like there needed to be um, I don't know, like um, there's a market for it, there's a place for it. And um, I really love this niche. I feel like we have a lot to say, and I I have no shortage of like fascinating people like you that I meet that I'm like, ooh, yeah, let's save this for the pod. Let's talk about it on the podcast because I think other people would would like to hear about what we have to say. And I feel like we just scratched the surface too. Like, I don't know, we can maybe you'll come back sometime when we can talk more about um the the mar marriage piece because I think that's important. As your kids leaving home, like the big joke is like when your kids leave the nest, it's like, oh shit, it's just me and my husband, which we haven't been for, you know, 24 years. And you know, that's a that's a that's a topic right there. Yeah, maybe maybe we could talk about that at some point. That's a transition.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, we definitely could. Yeah. What what I want to say though, also is um women, I would encourage women to start to start taking more care of themselves and their own sexuality. We socialize men to in this country to think that they and believe that they know everything, that they should know everything, do everything, um, have all the answers, make all the money. It's too much pressure. And it's simply not true. Men aren't perfect and they don't know all the answers. And women are socialized to believe that's true. And so women put a lot of pressure on men about sexuality and other things that they just simply don't know the answer to. And so I think women have to take more ownership over their own sexuality, over their own bodies, figuring out what really works for them instead of leaving it to someone who doesn't have any idea what it is that he he he he or she may be doing. Yeah. Um but it comes down to communication. 100%. But we have to know ourselves. Right. We we we have to feel comfortable with ourselves, we have to know what works for us, we have to know what doesn't work for us, and we have to communicate that clearly. You know, sexual assault doesn't just happen outside of a marriage or a committed relationship. A lot of times it happens inside of a committed relationship. I've had more than one couple come to me and say, there has been marital rape here. Or I've said yes and I didn't mean to say yes. I meant no. And then we're and then and then we're saying like that shouldn't have happened. Right. Um, I think it's a hundred percent a breakdown in miscommunication, right? And asking yourself, like, why would I say yes when I meant no?

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Again, that comes back to, you know, that's not the other person's fault if you said yes but meant no. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

You know, I'm not trying to defend marriage by any stretch, but that's a piece. That's a piece as women. Like, we do have to take accountability.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

I I had to just start to take account, like speaking of sexual assault, whenever you're sexually assaulted, it's wrong. And the person who did that is wrong and to blame, right? At fault. However, I'll speak for myself. As a person who was an alcoholic, I would consistently put myself into situations and environments that would invite trouble. I was prey for the predators, and I knew it, and I kept going back because I liked to drink, right? So whatever happened in those environments, if I was attacked, if I was assaulted, not my fault. But my responsibility, I have to look at myself. I have to take accountability for what I'm doing, what I'm putting in my body and the places that I'm going, right? A hundred percent. 100%. 100%. And and that's kind of what I'm saying, right? Like men and women, we are we can be compatible, we can communicate, we can find a way, and we're different. We're especially different sexually, right? Women experience responsive desire, men experience more spontaneous desire. Just simply understanding that.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah, I mean, great, great points. And I think we just scratched the surface here. Why don't before we wrap it up, why don't you uh tell us where we can find more information about you, your business, and if we wanted to um work with you.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah. If you wanted to, um my name is Melissa O'Neill again at Dobish, and I am the owner of the Rose Tree Center for Healthy Sexuality. We're located in Media, Pennsylvania. And then we also do telehealth. Um so we see people in person and do telehealth. Um, you can reach me at my email address. Yeah. Info1 at RosetreeCHS.com. Yeah.

unknown 47:59

Great.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Great. Well, thank you so much for for having this conversation with me. And uh there's so much more to talk about. So hopefully you'll come back soon.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

I absolutely will. Jill, it was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Hey, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Thank you. See you, see you. See you on the tennis court. Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Thanks.

unknown 48:16

Awesome.