Healing Together: The Power of Therapy in Family Relationships

In this episode of ABC's Parenting Adult Children podcast, host James Moffitt speaks with trauma therapist Caroline Watson Kobylinski about the complexities of parenting adult children. They discuss the importance of self-care for parents, the subjective nature of trauma, and the role of therapy in family dynamics. Caroline shares her personal journey, emphasizing the need for compassion in communication, especially when dealing with addiction. The conversation highlights the significance of humor in therapy and the value of community support for caregivers. Listeners are encouraged to find common ground with their children and to approach parenting with grace and understanding.

Richard Jones. I am an RN with over 34 years of Nursing Experience, much of that experience working with young adults in the corrections system. 

Hello, James here !

Please click on the subscribe button to gain access to premium episodes.

Please go to parentingadultchildren.org website and sign up for the email list and leave a review for this episode. 

If you have any requests for future topics send me an email to TalkPAC@proton.me

Please share this podcast with your friends and family. Now for today's guest intervi

Transcript

James Moffitt (00:01.55)
Hello and welcome back to ABC's parenting adult children podcast, where we explore the real life challenges and triumphs of navigating relationship with our grown kids. Today's guest is Caroline Watson Kublinski, is it Kublinski? A trauma therapist who's built her entire career on one core belief. Therapy should actually help you feel different, not just ask you, not just, not just talking circles. I got that. got my brain just.

Caroline Kobylinski (00:15.415)
Yep.

James Moffitt (00:31.63)
Not just, okay. Let's say this again. Therapy should actually help you feel different, not just talking circles. I can edit all that out. Caroline story doesn't start in a therapy office. starts in the messy middle of her own life. So Caroline, thank you for being on the episode. How are you?

Caroline Kobylinski (00:52.215)
I'm so great.

James Moffitt (00:53.698)
Good. Do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

Caroline Kobylinski (00:57.431)
Okay, so I am Caroline Watson Kobalinski. I am a licensed professional counselor and licensed chemical dependency counselor in the great state of Texas. I'm also licensed in four other states. I'm licensed in Louisiana, Colorado, Florida, and Alabama.

and there's one more, but I can't remember what it is. No, Texas, that's the five. So I'm a trauma therapist. I have been a trauma therapist. I started my career in 2017, actually working with young men with dual diagnosis and substance use disorder. And so that kind of catapulted me into, I have a master's in counseling and a master's in marriage and family therapy.

And so working with families has been a huge part of what I do. I'm a believer that you just kind of show up and are who you are and like God just does the rest. And I really love Jesus. I've also been known to say the F word. So, you know, I try to, I try to have a good balance. So yeah, that's just a little about me.

James Moffitt (02:11.246)
Well, good. I want you to feel like you can be yourself. So if, if you need to punctuate a thought or something with a F bomb every once in a while, that's fine. I don't, I don't, I don't think my listening audience is going to wilt because of that.

Caroline Kobylinski (02:25.296)
Okay, if they've got children that are a gong show, I don't think that effort is going to be the thing that takes them down.

James Moffitt (02:32.194)
My poor wife, she's such a loving, gentle, compassionate spirit. And, I've been known to drop the F bomb a lot and, James stop using that word. You know, I don't like that word. Stop it. And I'm like, I'm sorry.

Caroline Kobylinski (02:50.199)
It's amazing.

James Moffitt (02:52.332)
Now, now she doesn't even, now she doesn't, after 35 years, she just, I think she has a filter that filters it out when I, yeah. So here's some, I have to share these. They're so funny ideas for episode titles, main focus. ready therapy for people who think therapy is bullshit, trauma tacos and crying in public as survival guide. love that one.

Caroline Kobylinski (02:57.623)
She just goes with it. Yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (03:08.769)
I'm ready.

James Moffitt (03:19.854)
perimenopause, parking lot fistfights, and other midlife plot twists. That is another priceless one. Crap therapists and the emotional damage they leave behind.

Caroline Kobylinski (03:25.751)
Yes.

James Moffitt (03:32.386)
How to survive life without faking your own death. I told you, I had so much, I had so much fun with your profile and chat GBT coming up with titles for this episode. And I was like, wow, those are spot on. So, so are you a parent?

Caroline Kobylinski (03:39.575)
Yeah

Caroline Kobylinski (03:47.895)
you

Caroline Kobylinski (03:51.416)
am NOT. So we... have bipolar 2 disorder and my growing up was really really hard. And so after kind of considering all of that I decided that I didn't feel like I could do that to another kiddo. And so I got married in 2018 and then in 20... 23? I was 37, however old that makes me.

we decided that we did want to have kids and so we did a round of IVF and that was a miserable $27,000 failure. But, you know, the Lord has just really, I have always loved kids. I thought that I would work with kids and then I was like, this is probably more a systemic problem when people send their kids to therapy. A lot of times they say, okay, I just want you to fix my child and they don't want to fix themselves.

James Moffitt (04:29.262)
Mm.

Caroline Kobylinski (04:47.479)
And so I thought if I could work with the whole family system, then we could kind of get that going. So I do not have kids. I just have spent a lot of time helping people raise their children. And then just as my career has gone on, that's just been kind of a part of things.

James Moffitt (05:09.602)
Well, you're probably, you're probably hoping that I don't say something like, well, if you're not a parent, you're not a subject matter expert. Therefore we just can't not, we can't do this episode now. No, I'm not going to say that, but anyway, lot of, you know,

Caroline Kobylinski (05:19.575)
You

James Moffitt (05:27.374)
Parents, parenting is a struggle. Parenting is a, it's a full-time job. And, and, you know, I just want to say to the listening audience that, you are a subject matter expert because you're in the weeds every day. Right. And you, you, you, none of us are perfect. We're all human. We all make mistakes. Parents make mistakes. Kids make mistakes. We all make mistakes together. We all need therapy together or separately, or all of the above.

Caroline Kobylinski (05:31.552)
It's a struggle.

James Moffitt (05:57.229)
Yeah. Or all of the above. And, one of the, one of the things we talk about on this podcast is that, you know, when, when, when parents bring their children, to see the child psychologist or the family therapist or whatever, whatever the title of the, the professional is right. The, whatever the title is, a lot of times, parents are shocked to find out that they need to work on themselves as well. You know, that

Caroline Kobylinski (06:25.889)
Absolutely.

James Moffitt (06:27.028)
Some, sometimes the kids are all whacked out because the parents are all whacked out and they brought emotional garbage from their childhood into the marriage relationship and into the parent child relationship. And my wife's been a special ed teacher for 25 years and she just loves kids and, and, she, has the right IEPs, for all the children. And, and she tells me about these kids that act out in class and just, just, you know, just horrible behavior.

Caroline Kobylinski (06:48.459)
Yes.

James Moffitt (06:57.314)
And of course now some of these, some of these children are neurodivergent and they have, they have, you know, a special set of circumstances, mentally, emotionally, spiritually that, creates an extra hurdles for them that normal kids may not have. and, then she tells me about the parent teacher conferences that she has. And she's like, she's like, she's like, my God, she said,

Caroline Kobylinski (07:21.759)
Yes!

James Moffitt (07:26.922)
As soon as I spent five minutes talking to the parent, I was like, there's no wonder this child is screwed up because, because the parents have a hard time with, with their emotions, you know, they're cursing, they're yelling, they're screaming. They don't know how to interact like an adult, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so, so yes, self care is a huge topic on our podcast, you know, and, and we, tell people that.

Caroline Kobylinski (07:32.433)
Yes! Yes!

Caroline Kobylinski (07:43.499)
Yeah, they're completely emotionally dysregulated. Yes.

James Moffitt (07:55.565)
Self-care is not selfish, you know, especially to the, the mothers. It's like, you need to take time out and take care of yourself. You need to go have a Starbucks or go out to the park or go ride a horse or do whatever it is. No, no, you cannot. And so, so yeah, that's a good, it's a good, it's good that parents understand that they got to, they, need to find a quiet space where they can do some.

Caroline Kobylinski (07:57.526)
Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (08:02.155)
Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (08:07.371)
Yeah, you can't fill from the empty bucket.

James Moffitt (08:25.536)
retrospect, you know, introspection and, try to understand why they're reacting the way they are to their children and the antics that the kids come up with. And, anyway, like I told you before we hit the record button, you know, I've, my dad was a drill instructor for 26 years and, and my mother was, Austrian, which was European, descent. And so they were both huge.

Caroline Kobylinski (08:26.892)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (08:54.542)
authoritative figures in our lives. And so they expected us kids to be perfect. You know, they expected us to be seen, but not heard and, wow. So yeah, they.

Caroline Kobylinski (09:05.559)
Okay, I wanna plug a book real fast on this. It's called You're on Fire, sorry.

James Moffitt (09:08.13)
Yeah, absolutely.

Caroline Kobylinski (09:19.829)
It's called You're on Fire and That's Okay. I can't remember her name is like Katie or Megan some odd and it's spelled very weirdly. Her first name is, but it is I recommend that to my parents that I'm working with their, my high school kiddos. And it is phenomenal just about parents learning how to regulate themselves so that they're not

compounding what is happening with their child. It has been a really great resource. mean, just for me as a therapist, I was like, my gosh, that's so good. And this is so good. So.

James Moffitt (10:01.516)
Right. And we can put that, that book in your website in our show notes.

So, and while we're talking about your book, let's let me share the website.

James Moffitt (10:20.802)
window.

James Moffitt (10:31.384)
Whoops. What have I done? I'll get it together. Hold on.

Caroline Kobylinski (10:35.797)
Okay, it's a story in my life. Just give me a minute and I'll have this all figured out.

James Moffitt (10:43.502)
I have too many windows open. Window. Yes. There we go. Share.

So mental health therapy in Richardson, Texas.

Caroline Kobylinski (10:55.799)
Yes, I also, my Instagram and my TikTok are bruised banana counseling. That is kind of my approach to therapy. My SEO guy is like, you need to have a brand. And I'm like, no, this is too great. Cause I just kind of view life as, you know, we're all kind of like bananas. And all of sudden you look up and you're like, I'm just a little bruised.

And I think that that is a really great model for therapy of like, even if you haven't had some huge something that's like this huge black bruise, know, just moving through life is really hard. And so having an objective ear that's just like, okay, how do we help you be the best you that you can be? And so that's where Bruce Banana Counseling came from.

James Moffitt (11:47.043)
That is, that is hilarious. Bruised banana counseling. like that. So this is www.cwkcounseling.com. That's very clinical, very clinical sounding. Yes. That's the professional side of Caroline.

Caroline Kobylinski (11:52.822)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (12:00.364)
That's it. Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (12:05.267)
Yes, that's about as professional as it gets.

James Moffitt (12:08.878)
There you go.

James Moffitt (12:14.488)
Alright, so...

James Moffitt (12:19.766)
How did you go from hot mess to therapist and why should anyone trust you?

Caroline Kobylinski (12:25.259)
Well, I think that I show up really authentically. My story has been, I have bipolar two disorder and so I've had that. mean, I can remember being four and feeling so emotionally dysregulated. And that's kind of where my eating disorder started. I didn't feel okay inwardly. And so I was like, there's gotta be something going on outwardly that's making this happen. So.

have been in recovery since 2020 from my eating disorder. I didn't get diagnosed with my bipolar two until I was 25. And so I spent my high school years self-medicating with alcohol and pot and cocaine and went to treatment, drug and alcohol treatment, summer after my senior year and was sober for three years.

and really kind of learned a lot about myself and kind of got myself together and graduated from college and went to TWU, which is a really great school here in Texas, to do pre-nursing stuff. And so I got on Zoloft maybe, I can't remember which one it was, it flipped me into a hypomanic episode.

So here's a really great story. I went to my statistics final and I was trying to take it and I was like, I'm gonna jump out of my skin. And so I went up to my professor. I was like, I'm having an emergency and he took one look at me and he was like, you should go to the health services. So that's when I got diagnosed and that was really one of the most freeing things that had ever happened to me because there was now a

a reason behind the way I felt and therefore there was a solution. And so I think that that gives me a lot of empathy for, you know, the adult that's struggling, but also the parent that's struggling to deal with their person. So went to nursing school and a guy that I've been dating off and on for five years who I met when he was sober.

Caroline Kobylinski (14:48.439)
ended up relapsing and he overdosed in 2010 and ultimately died. And so I had a nervous breakdown. I flunked out of nursing school. It was a whole ordeal. And so I may need, I did some kind of things and then in 2014, I decided like, okay, am I gonna be a teacher or am I gonna get a master's in counseling and chose to get a master's in counseling?

James Moffitt (14:54.994)
no.

Caroline Kobylinski (15:18.035)
And since then, just, God has just oriented one thing after another. I mean, it's crazy how I even ended up at my job and then going into private practice in 2021. I mean, it just, God has been so faithful to me. Like, I feel like maybe Romans 8 28 gets a little overused, but I mean, that is just the story of my life that God works everything together for the good of those who love him and are

called according to his purpose and for his glory. And that has been, I mean, that is the mantra of my life.

James Moffitt (15:56.323)
That's awesome. See, probably from the ages of 18 to about 26, I was a dumpster fire. Literally. And, and, it's only by the grace of God that I'm sitting here talking to you. And, I could very easily have wound up in some sort of horrible addiction. could have easily wound up in prison or dead, you know, one of the three. And it's only by the God.

Caroline Kobylinski (16:07.061)
Yeah, same, same.

Caroline Kobylinski (16:22.635)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (16:25.9)
grace of God that he brought me through all of that. I actually spent 45 days in a, straight rescue mission called star of hope mission when I was in my early twenties. And, yeah, I spent 45 days there and I wasn't there because of any kind of addiction. but I lost my, lost my job, lost my car.

Caroline Kobylinski (16:39.926)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (16:51.74)
didn't have a place to stay and I had three plastic bags of belongings and I lived under a bridge for like a week and, a, believer, he owned a, coffee, warehouse. His job was to, he drove a van around Houston, Texas, delivering coffee to the different businesses that were his customers. And, he came by and,

Caroline Kobylinski (16:58.07)
Wow.

James Moffitt (17:20.416)
Obviously I looked homeless. Right. And he was like, what's, know, what's your story? And I told him my story and he was like, well, you know, can, I know a guy that runs this, Christian, rescue mission downtown and, know, I can call him for you and see if I can take you down there. I'm like, you know, sure. Anything beats living under a bridge with three plastic bags of belongings. Right. And, yeah. And, so.

Caroline Kobylinski (17:39.306)
Yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (17:42.879)
Yeah, and Houston, Texas.

James Moffitt (17:48.431)
I wound up staying in his warehouse. he had a cot in a place I could take a shower and I'm, think I mowed the grass around the warehouse and cleaned it up and I made some money. Make a long story short, I wound up in front of a star of hope mission. my, my big issue was pride. I thought I was, I thought I was better than everybody. And, I was raised in a, you know, a, a, white, you know, middle aged or middle, middle class family in Quinlan, Texas.

And, uh, when I wound up at star of hope mission, there were these, you know, smelly guys cursing and they were sleeping on pieces of cardboard out in front of the mission. And I was like, I tell God right then and there, was like, Oh, I'm better than this. And, uh, oops. And, uh, so I wound up wasting that money I had earned, uh, and I went to a hotel or a motel across the street and, I was there for about a week and I ran out of money. And I was, then I was.

Caroline Kobylinski (18:31.669)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (18:46.7)
back right out in front of star of hope mission. And, and, the, one of the counselors came out and asked what my name was. And told him, and he says, we've been expecting you a week ago. And, anyway, make a long story short,

They make you listen to the gospel message, three times a day before you can eat a meal. Right. And they kick you out at 7am in the morning, to go find jobs, blah, blah, blah. So my question to God was, cause I'd been, you know, I had accepted Jesus into my heart as Lord and savior when I was 17 years old. So I didn't need to hear the gospel message. I already had that. I had my, it will admit one to heaven card in my pocket. Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (19:09.398)
Wow.

Caroline Kobylinski (19:31.991)
Right.

James Moffitt (19:33.193)
And, kept asking God, why me? What, what have I done to deserve this? Right? Cause it was, it was almost as bad as going to jail. You know, it was horrible, horrible surroundings. Anyway, after lots of prayer and listening to, know, they had, had, churches would come in and do the music and, and preach the sermons and stuff. And, and, and I'd talk to some of their counselors and I don't know.

Caroline Kobylinski (19:41.601)
Yeah!

James Moffitt (20:01.878)
It wasn't an audible voice, but one day I heard, well, James, it's not what you've done. It's what you haven't done. And I'm like, what, what do you mean? He says, he says, he said, you're, you're, you're saved. And he says, you're, your name's written in the lamb's book of life. And I have a purpose for your life and it, and it's my purpose, not yours. You know, I saved you for a purpose. And so I was full of pride and I thought I knew better, you know,

about all sorts of stuff. And so I had to humble myself and come to the realization that, wow, God did save me. And, you know, and he has a purpose for my life. And so from that point on, when I, when I came to that realization, then he was able to work in my heart and my mind and my spirit and get me to a place where I could be teachable, trainable and moldable, you know, to do.

Caroline Kobylinski (20:53.601)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (20:54.51)
to do kingdom work. And anyway, I wound up getting off the streets and wound up in street ministry for 10 years in Houston. So I have a real place in my heart for homeless people because I've been there, done that and didn't have a t-shirt.

Caroline Kobylinski (21:04.385)
Yeah, I love that.

Caroline Kobylinski (21:08.501)
Well, and I mean, coming back to that thing of pride, that's one of the things I do get the opportunity to do some Christian counseling. And I'm even, it's kind of flowed over into my other, but I mean, like that's the reason Satan got kicked out of heaven is because of his pride. And that is, that's such an easy space for us to fall into because we all think that we have all the answers.

And so when we think that we have all the answers, we're looking around going, well, if you just do what I told you to do, we wouldn't be in this mess. And that itself is pride, and it never gets us anywhere.

James Moffitt (21:52.109)
Right. Right. Well, I, I had to, I had to get to the end of the rope. You know, I had to hit rock bottom before, he got my attention and he got my attention. you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm still working through the justification of our salvation, you know, every, every day, you know, it's a new day and, and I'm not perfect. I still sin. I still make mistakes. You know, I don't want anybody to think that I've arrived at all.

Caroline Kobylinski (22:02.615)
Yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (22:20.279)
Yeah, you hadn't figured it all out, right.

James Moffitt (22:20.63)
understanding and all knowledge because, cause I haven't, know, and, the, the older I get, the more I realize what I don't know. Right. So anyway, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think it's good that, in, in, I had a, I had a, somebody in my Facebook support group that wrote me a private message on Facebook and said, I don't think I can be a member of your, your, parenting support group because it's a, it's faith based.

And I was like, what? And so I, I don't, I try to practice DEI, right? Diversification, equality, inclusion. I don't really care what somebody's faith is. It's, you know, don't care if you're Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, whatever, you know, you can, you can worship a cow. don't care. Whatever. Cause you're, you're religion and you're, your God is, is something very personal to you. Right. And so.

Caroline Kobylinski (23:03.903)
Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (23:09.867)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (23:19.542)
I don't shy away from my faith, but I also don't want to proselyte. I don't want to use this platform. I don't want to use that platform or this platform to proselyte anybody. And so, so my, my encouragement for people is to, is that there are a lot of churches out there that are good churches and they have pastoral counseling and they have programs that are designed to help the family unit. Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (23:23.511)
Absolutely.

Caroline Kobylinski (23:28.512)
Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (23:47.179)
Right.

James Moffitt (23:47.681)
So, so there's nothing wrong with you investigating that, right? And I would highly, I want to encourage people to, to tap into the God of the universe, right? Whoever that God is for you.

Caroline Kobylinski (24:00.076)
Right. Well, and spending time in the 12 step community, mean, that is, know, people start out where like your higher power can be the doorknob if it's going to help you stay sober. And so I think that that's oftentimes whether you end up in a place of Christianity or you don't, if they're like, this world is kind of horrible and it feels really horrible when your children are breaking your heart.

And if there's no sense of something out there that can aid in that healing, I mean, that's a really hopeless place to be. And so my clients come from differing faith backgrounds and some of them have a no faith background. And when it comes to the family system, you have to figure out, okay, where

Where can we find some hope here and where can we translate that to the rest of our family?

James Moffitt (25:06.976)
So how do you explain trauma to someone who says, but my childhood was fine. I had a perfect childhood.

Caroline Kobylinski (25:13.311)
Yes, that's one of my favorite questions. So trauma is totally subjective. What is traumatizing to one person may not be traumatizing to another. I mean, if we think about kiddos that grow up in war-torn countries, their trauma level barometer, thermometer, whatever you want to say, is very different than somebody that grows up in America. And so

in thinking through that kind of lens, it's all subjective. And we also have to take into account, know, attachment style. And attachment style is somewhat born into who we are. Cause people could grow up in fantastic families and still have this anxious attachment that says, I'm not okay, but you're okay. Or they may have an avoidant attachment style that says, you're okay.

you're not okay, but I'm okay. And so, know, everything is not the parents' fault. I think that's what I want people to really take away from what I'm saying today is nothing, nothing, there is no such thing as something being all or nothing. so, you know, trauma depends on inner resiliency. That's why two people, my best friend,

and her sister grew up same family. She is extremely responsible, like owns her own home, like does all this stuff. And her sister overdosed and died and her baby was in the bed crying until somebody came and found him. So I mean like same family, two totally different things. And so, you know, I think that that plays a big part in it. I also think that,

you know, sometimes more people than others, just things hit them differently. I have a really tender heart and things that, you there's some stuff going on politically right now that, you know, I'm really grieved over. And my mom texted me this morning that she was like, you're spending too much time on that. And I was like, this is, I was like, you don't have to feel the same way that I feel and that's okay. But.

Caroline Kobylinski (27:33.452)
You know, I think that trauma is not what happens to you. It's what happens inside of you and what happens to that experience. And so do you have a support system around you that can aid you in recovering from that? You know, during 9-11, there was so much, I mean, the EMDR people and the trauma therapists all came in and the people that experienced that to

that were actually at ground zero, the level of PTSD that they had was significantly lower than it should have been because they were in a community of other people that could grieve with them. And so I think that's, you know, part of the reason that your podcast is so great is there's a whole community of people that are experiencing the same traumatic experience.

of their kids being hard and wayward and whatever other way you want to say. And so when there is a community around you, that PTSD component of trauma can be significantly lower. Does that answer your question? Okay.

James Moffitt (28:44.876)
Yes. Thank you. you. So why do you so many people leave therapy saying that didn't do Jack.

Caroline Kobylinski (28:53.463)
because they've got a shit therapist. Or...

James Moffitt (28:55.768)
Do you, do you remember that game? Do you remember the game called? You don't know Jack. It was like a, it was like, it was like trivial pursuit, but you played it on a computer. And if you got, if you got the answer wrong, this, this guy got on there real sarcastically going, don't know Jack. You're an idiot.

Caroline Kobylinski (29:00.969)
Yes, yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (29:05.707)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (29:12.983)
Yes, I mean, I think that some people go to therapy and they're not ready for therapy and so that's why it's not helpful. You have to show up to therapy ready to work. Nobody's gonna be able to do it for you. So I think that's one thing. But I think there's a lot of bad therapists out there that are one, crazy themselves and two, they have not worked out their own stuff. And so if you haven't worked out your own stuff and you're being a therapist, you are

projecting that onto your clients and it's unethical. I think a lot of times, I've been really thinking about, and I wrote a blog about it, like what's the difference between a trauma therapist and a non-trauma therapist? And a trauma therapist is looking at where did this come from, not just changing the behavior. And so cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavior therapy, those are both skills driven.

and insurance loves those. But to really get down to something, you have to be willing to look at the bigger picture of things. And so I think a lot of people go to therapy and the therapist is not going down. I have people that come into my office. I have one woman that came in. She was like 70 and we started kind of diving into her background.

She had been like adopted and she'd been like molested and like all of this stuff. And she was like, you know, I've never talked about all this. I was like, you've been in therapy for like five years. What do mean you've never talked about any of this? you know, I think that finding a good therapist is really important. And I think that here's my own soap box. If you can't find a personal reference for a therapist, do not go see them because you don't know

James Moffitt (30:53.954)
Well...

Caroline Kobylinski (31:09.835)
what kind of person they are and if they are gonna do damage. And a bad therapist can do a lot, a lot of damage because they can blame the person they're working with for things that are not theirs to take responsibility for.

James Moffitt (31:27.48)
Wow, that's crazy.

Caroline Kobylinski (31:29.237)
Yeah. Nuts.

James Moffitt (31:36.258)
How do you talk to someone mid addiction spiral without sounding like a hallmark card?

Caroline Kobylinski (31:44.043)
This is one I think that depends on personality. I am a real straight shooter and so my clients they... and I think it also depends on the client but also...

you know, it depends on is somebody ready to get sober. I think that's a huge one. But the other part of it is just like laying it out there of like, you know, and nobody starts out wanting to be a heroin addict. That's nobody spends their four year old, you know, in kindergarten being like, what do want to be? And somebody's like, I'm gonna be a heroin addict like that doesn't happen. So allowing grace for like exploring, tell me, help me understand

this happened. I think that's a huge one that it makes people feel understood instead of judged. And I think there's practical solutions that also go with that. So it's like, okay, how do we... I'm a harm reduction therapist and so you know if somebody is doing heroin there's something called kratom that has kind of a similar property and I'm like, okay, are you willing to switch to kratom?

And like, let's get you on that where you're not gonna get fentanyl and overdose. And so I think it's all about working with addicts and alcoholics is about creating a place of compassion and empathy. I also think that it is really different for a therapist or some sort of mental health person to be talking to one of those people than it is their family member, because there's not the dynamic there.

that has been there before. And the company that I started my career with, one of the huge blessings of that job was I just got to meet my client where they were, and I got to love them for who they were at that moment. And their families, because there's so much shit show that goes on with all of that, there's, addiction is not personal, but it's also very personal. And so it's really hurtful.

Caroline Kobylinski (33:54.104)
And so creating a space where the client can come in and feel that unconditional positive regard I think is really important without patronizing them. And you know, it's like having I so while I was in grad school, I taught preschool in the mornings and then I tutored in the afternoons. And I wasn't doing like rocket science tutoring. I'm tutoring like

first graders and third graders and like seventh graders. But the thing, if you want to like ruin your relationship with your children, try to do homework with them. Because the things that make you crazy about your child when you have to do homework with them, they're like magnified times a million. And I don't think that it used to be like that. I really don't.

I do have a specific memory though of trying to do spelling with my dad and it was the OU's and like double or trouble or whatever it was. And I just could not wrap my mind around that. And I remember him getting so pissed at me. It is still like a very vivid memory in my brain. But so it's the same thing with working with people in addiction. You are the things that make you crazy about your children.

and the hurtful things that happen or your spouse or whoever it is, whatever the dynamic is there, it makes it really hard for you to be able to interact with them from a neutral standpoint. And most communication is neutral. And it depends on, you know, what's the relationship, what's the status of the relationship? Is it in a good or a bad place? Has the other person, are they hungry? Are they tired?

whatever, have they had a bad day? Did they stub their toe? Like whatever the deal is. And so when there's communication and it's in a bad place, depending on where each party is, they're gonna attribute that conversation, that communication, negatively or positively. And so I think in families, especially in families that are listening, moms and dads that are listening to this podcast,

Caroline Kobylinski (36:16.395)
like the hard parts of your children, you know, you might be saying something neutrally or they might be saying something neutrally, but it gets attributed negatively because there is such a strain on the relationship.

James Moffitt (36:33.934)
Yeah. And think there's a, I think history, family history comes into play there too. You know, there's, there's just, just a lot of, for, for better or for worse, there's maybe a lot of garbage in, in the background that hasn't been dealt with or, know, the blame game, the judgment game, the, you know, he said, she said all of that mess. They're just, you know, family dynamics are complicated.

Caroline Kobylinski (36:39.287)
Absolutely.

Caroline Kobylinski (36:57.568)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (37:02.143)
Yes, no, family dynamics. And so I work from a family system standpoint, that we are all a part of the constellation of our family. And so even if I'm not doing family therapy, I am working with this person through the lens of how do you fit into the bigger picture? And so even if the family members do not want to get healthy, like how do we create an environment where you can

function within a dysfunctional system and be healthy yourself and have boundaries and have standards and all of that kind of stuff. I think that that is a huge component of working with all of this that, know, if you want to get healthy but your kid doesn't or whatever it is, you know, figuring out how do you find peace within the family system, think that's a huge part of this.

James Moffitt (37:49.122)
Right.

James Moffitt (37:58.735)
Well, and I think it's important to state that we're all responsible for our own place in life, our own happiness. You know, I can't, I can't make you happy. You can't make me happy. Right. Happiness means different things to different people. and, and I think that we have to, we have to, own our own garbage. You know, we have to, we have to, we can't say.

Caroline Kobylinski (38:14.87)
Right.

James Moffitt (38:26.69)
Well, I'll do this work in therapy as long as they'll do their work in therapy too, because not every, not everybody in the family is going to want to come together all at once and do therapy. Right. So whether it's the parent or whether it's the child, somebody is going to have to take the higher road and, do what needs to be done. Right. Because if everybody's looking at other people to go, well, well, you know, my, my therapy is going to be in success and therapy is going to be.

Caroline Kobylinski (38:30.539)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (38:34.941)
No, absolutely. Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (38:45.834)
Right.

James Moffitt (38:55.276)
be dependent upon how well you do. It can't work like that.

Caroline Kobylinski (38:57.333)
Right. Well, and so we call that the all change first principle of regardless of what you do, I am going to do these things and it's not gonna be quid pro quo. It's not gonna be dependent on if you do, I'm going to change first and if you choose to change, then great and if you don't, I'm still gonna have the autonomy to do that.

James Moffitt (39:22.604)
Right. as you were talking about your, your experience with your dad about the, use and spelling, and you'll like this. I had a problem with multiplication tables. I couldn't wrap my brain around. to this day, I suck at math. Right. If you know, that's what calculators are for you. Want me to do math? Hold on. Get on my iPhone, open the calculator app and I'll do it real quick.

Caroline Kobylinski (39:36.139)
This

Caroline Kobylinski (39:44.204)
Yes!

Caroline Kobylinski (39:48.279)
Absolutely.

James Moffitt (39:49.453)
But my dad, way he taught me multiplication tables or inspired me or encouraged me or threatened me to get it done was if I didn't have a multiplication table homework done correctly. And he was a wizard at math. I couldn't watch the Dallas cowboy game on Sunday. my God. Yes, man. I, I studied my ass off, man. I was, I was prepared for the Dallas cowboy game on Sunday, you know, and,

Caroline Kobylinski (40:06.005)
wow! That's amazing! Talk about a motivator!

Caroline Kobylinski (40:17.911)
Yeah. Well, and that's another great point of like when you are working with people that are either young or old, you got to figure out what their motivation is. And some children are very hard and you can't figure out their motivation. And then I guess you have to consult a therapist.

James Moffitt (40:19.65)
But anyhow.

Caroline Kobylinski (40:44.935)
You know a lot of times if you can find what motivates people you're going to be able to make a lot of traction with them. Yeah.

James Moffitt (40:56.874)
So what's the most thankless gut wrenching underrated job in the world?

Caroline Kobylinski (41:04.631)
That's a great question. I think it's caregiving, caregiving of any kind, caregiving of being a mom, caregiving of, you know, your wife works with special ed kiddos. I mean, that has such a, you know, spectrum of things, you know, and I think, so my sister-in-law,

died in November of 2014 and my husband and I were her caretakers. And it

Caroline Kobylinski (41:43.698)
It is really interesting and from a parental standpoint too, all of the work that goes into caretaking and all of the thoughtfulness behind it and the hard parts that go with that, I think don't always get recognized. so whether that's a mom or a dad or a nanny or a teacher, I think that having that

caretaker position, I think that so often, you know, it's like, well, that's a given, of course you'd do that. But a lot of people wouldn't. And so I think thinking through how do you appreciate the caregivers in your life, I think that that is, that's a huge one to me.

James Moffitt (42:39.64)
Yeah, caregiving is tough.

Caroline Kobylinski (42:43.223)
It's well and it's tough for things that you never would think that it's tough for. You know, it's the things that on the days that you're tired that you don't want to do X, Y, and Z. You still have to do X, Y, and Z. And so, you know, I think that we live in a pretty narcissistic society where everybody feels pretty entitled to get whatever they want. And

And that's not, I mean, that's not good or bad. mean, we just, everybody has narcissistic traits. I'm not saying that everybody has narcissistic personality disorder because that is not true and that makes me crazy. But we all have some narcissistic traits. And so, you know,

James Moffitt (43:31.15)
Every time you say that word, think of people in the political realm.

Caroline Kobylinski (43:35.064)
Yes, oh my lord, I have a client that everybody's a narcissist. I'm like, no, they're an asshole. that's, no, they're selfish. They're not a narcissist. And so, you know, having, going with that, that everybody is kind of used to getting what they want. And the caretaker role, I think is sometimes exploited because a caretaker can turn into the codependent and the people pleaser.

really really quickly. And those people, know, when there's co-dependence and when there's people pleasing, the fuse is long but it eventually catches on fire. And the people around them are like, what happened? And people are like, I've been doing all this stuff for you and no one cares. you know, and then everybody thinks they're crazy.

But like really, people just haven't been caring for each other the way that they should have all along.

James Moffitt (44:41.88)
So why do you make jokes and therapy sessions? Isn't trauma supposed to be serious business?

Caroline Kobylinski (44:47.391)
If you can't laugh at the fuckery that goes on in life, like you're screwed. Like there, it's ridiculous. I just have an, I've always had dark sense of humor. I also think that starting working in the substance use world, that is just a world of heartache. And if you can't laugh, you know, at what's going on, it's just too horrible.

with my sister-in-law, you know, she was sick for five years and we would, we would say like somebody's got to get something out of this. And so we were like, we played the cancer card every time we could. Like something would happen and we'd be like, well, my sister-in-law has cancer and people would be so uncomfortable that they'd be like, okay, let's do whatever you want to. And I think that, you know,

laughing produces all of those feel-good hormones. It produces dopamine and all of that stuff that regulates your nervous system. And I'm just a pretty funny person anyway. And so I can't imagine not throwing that into my practice. But life is just crazy. And if you can't observe the craziness of things and see like the

see just the wildness, the paradox, the paradigm shift, all of that stuff, then you're really missing out on a huge part of life. I think that, you know, laughter is medicine. That is a saying for a reason. And, you know, when you're in the depths of

despair and you know thinking that nothing is ever going to get better. To be able to find something to laugh about that provides respite. And I think it's really important, know, especially when really hard stuff is going on. We all take ourselves extremely seriously. And so, you know, I think finding places to laugh is really...

Caroline Kobylinski (47:10.633)
important and I think it depends on your you know where your client is to when they're grieving process, you know You know for a parent that has just had a child that's died I mean, I'm not gonna go in and start making jokes like that's not helpful. That's insensitive Absolutely, absolutely

James Moffitt (47:26.808)
Yeah, there's a time and place for it.

So who's your favorite standup comedian?

Caroline Kobylinski (47:35.768)
I am loving me some Leanne Morgan right now. She is, I started watching her during the pandemic. And yes, and she is, she's clean comedy and she talks all about just being a woman and what it's like to be a mom and a wife. I mean, it just so,

James Moffitt (47:39.743)
Okay.

James Moffitt (47:47.596)
Lee Ann Morgan. Okay. I'll have to watch her.

Caroline Kobylinski (48:03.721)
resonates with so many people and she's just unapologetically herself. And I just like, her new show just came out on Netflix and then I've listened to her audiobook and we watch her stand up if I'm ever having a hard time. My husband turns on Lee A. Morgan and I'm like, I have got to quit listening to her because I'm going to go on these podcasts and I'm going to sound like a hick.

So I love her. I also really love John Crist, who's another clean comedian. John Crist, he also grew up in the church and so a lot of the things that he experienced are C-R-I-S-T, like Christ, but not. Yes, so he grew up in the church and so the things that he...

James Moffitt (48:41.176)
John who?

James Moffitt (48:49.794)
How do you spell that?

James Moffitt (48:53.986)
Okay. Okay. No age.

Caroline Kobylinski (49:02.495)
makes jokes about are a lot of things that I totally get. Another one is Nate Bargatze. Also, yes, we're all going to see him in November. But, and I'm listening to his audiobook right now. It is hilarious. So, so good. And then I also love Bert Kreischer, who is like horrifically irreverent. But,

James Moffitt (49:10.092)
yeah. Yeah. He's one of my favorites.

James Moffitt (49:20.674)
Really?

Caroline Kobylinski (49:31.531)
We've been to see him, I think, twice here in Dallas. And I just think that he is so funny and so ridiculous. He just is a ridiculous person. But he and his wife love each other. my gosh, they love each other. And seeing the clips of them on his Instagram, I mean, it's really, again, like he is so irreverent, probably.

a lot of your podcasters, listeners would be like, that is horrible. And I questioned her for thinking that. But those are my, we love standup. That's one of the things that my husband and I started doing when my sister-in-law was sick, is we started going to standup shows.

James Moffitt (50:11.36)
Okay.

James Moffitt (50:19.362)
I love, I love watching Netflix, standup comedy. And I've seen all of the ones that are worth watching, ad nauseam, Taylor Tomlinson. Do you know who she, who she is? my God. She is so funny. And, so fluffy is one of my top ones, know, fluffy.

Caroline Kobylinski (50:23.585)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (50:30.911)
Yes, yes, yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (50:37.815)
haven't watched that. I know who that is, but I haven't watched it.

James Moffitt (50:40.398)
Oh my God, you have got to watch fluffy. Fluffy is the funniest. He's a big fat Mexican dude. And, he's lost a lot of weight though. And, I can say fat because I'm fat. Right. So not, not making judgments on anybody's body size or body shaming. He's a huge dude. Right. And, but he's been doing standup comedies for 27 years and he has a whole history of all of that. Anyway, fluffy is, I'm telling you.

Caroline Kobylinski (50:46.826)
Yes!

Caroline Kobylinski (50:58.103)
Yeah

Caroline Kobylinski (51:03.084)
Wow.

Caroline Kobylinski (51:07.669)
Okay, we'll watch it. Yeah.

James Moffitt (51:09.004)
You're missing out on fluffy, Dave Chappelle. I, I had a white person. just, let's just say I spent time in law enforcement. I've spent time in private security. I've worked in a mental hospital in Terrell, Texas. I've had some tough jobs over time and I've seen some tough things. I've experienced some tough things because of that. And I was working a security job, three to 11 with a friend of mine.

Caroline Kobylinski (51:13.087)
Yes, another one.

Caroline Kobylinski (51:25.22)
wow. Yeah.

James Moffitt (51:36.335)
we both worked the same shift and we played spades in between rounds and we talked. She's a single mother, blended family, blah, blah, blah. Her husband is a, African-American, not her, not her husband, her, her boyfriend, her significant other. And so we were talking to, and his name was, my God, what was it? Clifford, Clifford, right? And you know, you know, the, you know, Dave Chappelle and his, his, has a whole spiel about Clifford, the big black.

Caroline Kobylinski (51:58.264)
Love it.

Caroline Kobylinski (52:05.815)
I

James Moffitt (52:06.624)
inward, right? And so, so we were talking and she had him on speakerphone and we're talking, you know, I didn't care that he's black, you know, whatever. And, and so, so we were talking and I made the, I made the comment about, told Clifford, said, have you watched that Dave Chappelle? And I even brought it up on my phone and went to net Netflix and brought up the actual comedy skit about where Dave Chappelle is talking about Clifford. He thought it, he thought it was funny.

Caroline Kobylinski (52:08.459)
Yes!

Caroline Kobylinski (52:13.26)
you

James Moffitt (52:36.246)
And then like five minutes later, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. Yeah. Brandy. Brandy looked over at me and she said, you're not supposed to like Dave Chappelle.

I looked at her and said, why? Cause I'm an old white guy. can't like Dave Chappelle. I mean, I like, just like his, and he's not, he's not, he has a different flavor of comedy, right? He's not, he's not funny like fluffy, but he talks about life and he talks about life situations and he says it how it is. He has a very unique perspective.

Caroline Kobylinski (53:00.555)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (53:06.603)
Yes.

Guess!

James Moffitt (53:12.704)
On life in, in events that have happened in his life and other people. And he talks about Bill Cosby and all this other stuff, you know, but that's what I love about Dave Chappelle is his perspective on life and, and how he frames those things, right. And relates them.

Caroline Kobylinski (53:19.413)
Yes.

Caroline Kobylinski (53:28.917)
Well, and I mean, talk about their humor and therapy. know, I mean, there is so much that goes on in this world that like, John Chris was talking about it, that comedians, they just look at the world differently. They see things that the rest of us see every day and just kind of look through. But comedians, they see it and they see the funny parts of it.

James Moffitt (53:57.475)
Yeah. And they say things that we think, but would never dare to say it out loud. Right. Right. They get up. That's why they make so much money because they get on stage and they make fun of all of us. They're like, you know, and, there's a, there's a, Italian, there's an Italian standup comic and I can't think of his name, but, yes, yes, yes. He makes fun of his wife and, and, he.

Caroline Kobylinski (54:01.527)
Yes, exactly.

Yes! Yes!

Caroline Kobylinski (54:20.491)
He has real dark hair and he's like muscular. I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Yes.

James Moffitt (54:27.234)
Talks about the Italian, family dynamic and, we'll see one to Sykes is another one that I like to listen to. she, she's, she is very political in a lot of her stuff. And some of that stuff, I just have to filter through my brain and go, okay. Yeah, it's funny, but I don't agree with her politics, whatever. So anyway, yeah. So, so I think that, I think that comedy can be very therapeutic.

Caroline Kobylinski (54:35.371)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (54:42.591)
Yes. Yeah.

Caroline Kobylinski (54:57.099)
Yes.

James Moffitt (54:57.216)
And so, so I know some of you, some of the people in my listening audience are probably thinking, why in the world are we talking about standup comedy? Well, because, because it's good to laugh. It is good to laugh. We, you know, I, I I'll just bring it. I'll just make it really real here. Right. I was, I, I'm, I'm retired after 30 years in it and I work part-time security job at Walmart at night driving a patrol vehicle. Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (55:04.375)
Yeah.

It is!

James Moffitt (55:25.102)
And so keeping it real, I watched the guy OD. Somebody came up to the car and said, Hey, this guy slumped over in the parking lot. knew exactly who he was talking about. And I said, is he in your wheelchair? Yes. So went over there, you know, the off duty police officer came over and helped me. got him out of the wheelchair, started CPR on him and called the nine one one. Oh my God. That's that, that is, that's just a, a horrible example of how tough things can get. Right. And, uh, I.

Caroline Kobylinski (55:28.971)
Wow.

Caroline Kobylinski (55:52.459)
Yes.

James Moffitt (55:55.351)
They got a faint pulse on him, loaded him in an ambulance and took him to the hospital. I hope he survived. He's a, he's a veteran served in the Navy for years and he wound up on the street. he's addicted to God knows what, you know, it's, it's, the homeless population is tough. You know, I see it every day at work, you know, and, I use that as an example to say that, okay.

Caroline Kobylinski (56:15.158)
Yes.

James Moffitt (56:23.0)
people listening to this podcast episode, you may not see those kinds of things, right? You may not be exposed to addiction, homelessness, violence, whatever. Right. But we, we, we, you being a trauma therapist, you'll probably agree with this. we all have our own version of that. We all have our own things that we're exposed to that maybe I won't even be able to relate to. Right. But, but just because it's not.

Caroline Kobylinski (56:26.988)
Right.

Caroline Kobylinski (56:50.348)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (56:55.65)
It's not traumatizing to you, right?

Caroline Kobylinski (56:58.027)
people. Well, and that's exactly, you know, trauma is subjective. And so other people could experience that. And it be something that, you know, really sticks with them. Whereas you having your experience with the homeless population and you know, all of the life experience that you have had makes that completely different.

James Moffitt (57:24.108)
Well, and it does affect me, right? It does affect me. I have a sensitive spirit, somewhat tender hearted. I'm not going to admit on camera that I, I've, I'll watch a movie and cry about it, you know, because that's going to, that's going to screw up my tough guy persona. Right. But anyway, yeah, it, it affects me. Like I still can't get the guys image out of my head.

Caroline Kobylinski (57:26.455)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Kobylinski (57:40.705)
My husband's a crier.

Hahaha

Caroline Kobylinski (57:53.449)
You need some ART. You need some accelerated resolution therapy. I'll just wipe that right out.

James Moffitt (57:53.539)
You know, I-

James Moffitt (57:59.587)
Yeah, I need, I need some comedy, but anyway, that's, that's my therapy is stand up comedians. Anyway, I'm sorry. I went down a rabbit rabbit hole there for way longer than I should have.

Caroline Kobylinski (58:06.071)
Yes

Caroline Kobylinski (58:11.681)
Well, so let me kind of put in this, that a lot of times in families where raising children, especially adult children, it feels like they're such a disconnect, finding things like that can be really connecting. So watching some stand up together, like finding a show to watch together, like those things can be, and it's passive enough that you're not having to kind of really interact, but you're still spending time together.

I think that that could be a really great thing to do with your kid.

James Moffitt (58:49.518)
Good. So if you could give one piece of encouragement to a parent who feels disconnected from their adult child, what would it be?

Caroline Kobylinski (59:08.055)
You have to fill up your bucket first. If you are trying to fix them, well first of all you can't fix them, but if you're trying to fix them before you have your own, I mean to use the old thing, before your own oxygen mask is on, it is never gonna go well because you are projecting onto them what's happening with you. And so,

You know, I think that that's a big one. I also think that having a community around you that are in a different place than you are in your journey with your child, because when you're in the thick of things, you're like, this is never gonna be over. But to be around people that are in a different spot, I think can be really, really helpful.

I think another thing is, know, kind of depending on your child's specific struggle, it's to not give up on them. Like families, we don't get to choose our family. And so you can have boundaries with them. Like they're not gonna run all over you, but like they're still your child. And, you know, that's not to say that maybe you need to take some time off or do something like that. But I think that

having hope for change and if you don't have the space for hope to borrow some from somebody else, whether that's a therapist or a friend or whoever it is that can see.

that can see reconciliation in this situation, I think that that is really, really important. And I also think it's important to everybody needs some grace. Your child needs some grace, you need some grace. And especially as parents, I think that so often parents are like, what did I do wrong? Like, how did this happen? But everybody has autonomy.

Caroline Kobylinski (01:01:22.187)
We are not responsible for the things that happen to us, but we are responsible for what we do with that. so, you know, allowing your child to blame you for all of this stuff, like that just is not true. And so allowing for, allowing for yourself to have the freedom in that, it's a long answer, but yeah.

James Moffitt (01:01:48.3)
That's okay.

James Moffitt (01:01:52.162)
So where can our listeners learn more about your work and connect with you? So, Banana Therapy, is that what you said your brand is?

Caroline Kobylinski (01:01:59.166)
Yes, Brews Banana Therapy on TikTok and Instagram. And I have kind of all over the map of different topics on there. And then my website is cwkcounseling.com. There is a lot of information, resources to help people.

figure out if they need a therapist, how do they find one? Just explaining therapy in general, I think is really helpful. A lot of people don't understand therapy. And so it gives kind of some bite-sized pieces of this is what this, this is why this is important. This is what, I mean, according to Caroline, this is what that should look like. So yeah.

James Moffitt (01:02:52.43)
That's wonderful. Caroline, I appreciate you being on the episode today. I had a lot of fun with it. I appreciate all the things you've walked through in your life and how that God has healed you and a lot of those things. And He's allowed you to bring healing to other people. And you're paying it forward. And that's wonderful. So.

Caroline Kobylinski (01:02:58.421)
Yeah, no, this has been great.

Caroline Kobylinski (01:03:14.443)
Yes, I love my job. Love, love, love it.

James Moffitt (01:03:18.028)
Yeah. So the listening audience, I'm going to say that wraps up another heartfelt conversation here on the ABC's of Parenting Adult Children podcast. A huge thank you to Carolyn for sharing her wisdom, honesty, and practical advice on navigating the complex but rewarding journey of parenting grown children. Her insights remind us that parenting doesn't end when our kids become adults. It simply evolves into a deeper relationship built on respect, boundaries, and love. If today's episode resonated with you, be sure to share it with a fellow parent.

You could use some encouragement and levity laughter. And don't forget to sub, and don't, don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode where we tackle the real issues of parenting with grace and intention until next time. Remember parenting adult children isn't about control. It's about connection. And, thank you for the privilege of your time, Carolyn. Thank you for being here.

Caroline Kobylinski (01:03:52.279)
Absolutely.

Caroline Kobylinski (01:04:10.219)
Yeah. Thanks so much. I enjoyed this.

James Moffitt (01:04:14.676)
Absolutely. Bye bye.