Speak From Clarity, Not Chaos: The Power of ‘Emptying Out’

In this episode of ABC's Parenting Adult Children podcast, Dr. David Marcus, a clinical psychologist with 40 years of experience, shares insights on effective communication strategies for maintaining healthy relationships with young adult children. He discusses the importance of developing a common emotional language and the concept of 'emptying out' to foster emotional connections. Dr. Marcus also touches on the challenges parents face, such as dealing with adult children's individuation and the need for parents to be a 'soothing presence.

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Richard Jones. I am an RN with over 34 years of Nursing Experience, much of that experience working with young adults in the corrections system. 

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Transcript

James Moffitt (00:00.814)
Hello and welcome to ABC's Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffitt and I'll be your host. Today we have a special guest, Dr. David Marcus. David Marcus, how you doing?

David Marcus (00:12.673)
I'm fine. Thanks for having me.

James Moffitt (00:13.902)
Good. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

David Marcus (00:21.283)
Well, I'm Dr. David Marcus. I have a private practice of 40 years as a clinical psychologist who's specialized over the years in families under stress. I've done a lot of work with attorneys as far as custody, cetera, because that sometimes comes about when families are under stress. And my specialty is basically helping children and parents of all ages and spectrum.

be able to communicate more effectively.

James Moffitt (00:53.71)
That's good. I want to read this from your profile was use that kind of as a foundation to jump off from, says the episode could delve into effective communication strategies for maintaining healthy relationships with young adult children. Dr. David Marcus's insights on creating emotional connection could have, could offer guidance tailored for parents navigating the transition of their children into adulthood.

David Marcus (01:20.536)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (01:20.568)
So, you know, we talked earlier before I hit the record button about, you know, adult children being 18 to 26. And during that time, their frontal lobes are still developing, right? They're 18 years old and older physically, but they're still not fully mature. And so we have a lot of parents out there that are facing unique struggles.

David Marcus (01:37.753)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (01:50.466)
comes along with, parenting adult children. And we have, we have, you know, parents that, had children turn 18 and go off to college or go to trade school or just go out on their own and find a job. And they try to stand on their own two feet. And because of the expense of living on your own, sometimes they're not able to afford that. And they wind up coming back home. Right. And then you've got, you've got some parents that, are dealing with.

David Marcus (02:15.928)
Yes.

James Moffitt (02:21.334)
addiction issues, alcohol, drugs, etc. etc. And so they are working through the complexities of all of that. So having said all of that, I think you're going to probably provide a good foundation of information for listening parents today.

David Marcus (02:44.523)
Okay, just whatever you want me to ask me some questions and I'll be glad to answer whatever I can.

James Moffitt (02:47.116)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You said, said you got a book. You're developing a book.

David Marcus (02:54.391)
Yep. It's called Parent Prescription, Parent RX. And it's forthcoming. I'll put it that way. The book proposal's in. We're waiting to hear from the publishers at this point. No, it's written. Yeah, I have an agent in New York. She's pushing the book right now.

James Moffitt (03:07.298)
I got you. So you're still writing it and all that.

Got your manuscript?

James Moffitt (03:16.418)
I got you. So you're just trying to get it published.

David Marcus (03:20.097)
Yes, and in this day and age, you know, podcast is a way of promoting a publication. So that's that's one of the reasons I've been seeking out these podcasts to do.

James Moffitt (03:24.949)
yeah, absolutely.

James Moffitt (03:29.24)
Yeah, that's awesome. All right. So here's a question that says, how can parents develop a common emotional language with adult children?

David Marcus (03:39.989)
Okay, well, a common emotional language, what we do, as we all do this, especially parents, we make assumptions about the words that our children use when they're expressing emotions. Okay. And so what I mean by a common emotional language is basing the words that you use to communicate emotions with your child, whether it be young or adult, by using the words with their definitions.

Okay, what does companionship mean? What is boredom? What is, you know, caring? You know, these words are based on our own experiences as human beings. And the parents do all the time, including me, before I realized I was doing it, of course, was to say, I know what that is. I know what, but we're basing it on our own experience. And our children's experience can be vastly different. And here's the rub, even if you're right, you're wrong.

Because one of the things about emotional communication, and especially with adults or with teenagers going through the process of individuation, which is, got to be me, don't tell me what to do, that kind of thing, they insist on using their own language and that you understand it from their point of view. So what parents do is often just related to their own experience. And that actually gets in the way of being able to communicate with your kids.

James Moffitt (05:08.429)
Okay.

David Marcus (05:09.347)
Those assumptions are not good. When I see people and they start repeating words to me, children, adults, I say, okay, give me the definition of that word or that phrase. I feel like everybody doesn't like me. And they say it repeatedly, they say, tell me about people not liking you. Because I don't wanna guess at what that means.

The idea, and if you look at my, what I've sent you, there's a whole process of what's called emptying out. And you see that in the description that I sent you, maybe you do, I'm not sure. But how do you empty out a child and a teenager and an adult child is actually three different things, but they're related. How far into that type of a...

James Moffitt (05:50.158)
maybe.

David Marcus (06:04.525)
process do you want me to get into is up to you.

James Moffitt (06:08.45)
Right. So can you, can you, give us kind of a, tell us about your parenting story? You've got kids, right?

David Marcus (06:17.273)
I have one, my son, he's 38, he lives in Hawaii. That's why I was commenting on your Hawaiian shirt. Yeah, yeah. And he went to Clemson, which is close to where you are. And his girlfriend live in Hawaii. They just moved there from Denver. And he is a consultant for microdosing hallucinogens. That's what he's doing. And he's making a living at it, because it's sort of a trendy thing right now, you know?

James Moffitt (06:22.049)
Okay.

David Marcus (06:47.605)
And he makes a living at it there. And his girlfriend is an art therapist. that's applying their trade in Hawaii, trying to establish themselves because they only moved there maybe three months ago.

James Moffitt (07:05.229)
I got you.

David Marcus (07:05.561)
So bringing him up was interesting because my son could not get away with anything. I'll tell you the truth. His mom is an M.D. She's an internist, my wife Susan. So he couldn't fake being sick. And he would come up to me and say, hey, you know, how come Billy's dad's letting him do that and Bobby's dad's letting him you won't let me do it.

And he said, well, your dad's got a doctorate in child psychology. I know better than them, and they're wrong. And he gave me this, kind of look. But OK, that was just the way it was.

James Moffitt (07:40.643)
Right.

That's funny.

Well,

David Marcus (07:49.561)
What information can I give your audience that would help them get through this? Okay.

James Moffitt (07:53.486)
Well, I'll just, I'll just ask you some of these other questions, I guess. Uh, what does the empty, well, you said, know, here's your question or the question says, what does the empty out process look like with older children? So you can kind of delve into that some.

David Marcus (08:06.197)
Okay.

Parenting begins at birth. The development of this common emotional language actually begins at birth. But we have to assume that we're going into teenagers and adults that the children already have an emotional language. OK? Now, that's a big assumption to make sometimes, because that develops through experience when you're younger. All right? And some of it is cultural, you know, like the British stiff upper lip. We don't talk about emotions.

you know, things like that. Or you can come from a Jewish or an Italian family where everybody's everybody's business, you know what mean? We're always talking emotionally. But in any case, having the emotional language, the next thing that's really important for parents, especially parents of adult children, are what their children's emotional perception of them is. And that also comes from experiences with them.

For instance, if parents are dismissive parents, you know, they just try to make their child feel better. don't worry about it. Everything's going to be fine. That cuts off the emptying out process because the child has no place to go. All right. And I tell parents telling me I'm trying to make your child feel better actually doesn't help them at all. I mean, if somebody turned to you, James, when you were feeling very upset and said, just think about it this way and you'll feel all better. Would that be helpful for you?

James Moffitt (09:39.918)
Probably not.

David Marcus (09:40.077)
No, no, but parents do this all the time. They give advice and that phrase advice is cheap. Advice is typically based on their own experience. Advice is cheap. Well, unsolicited advice, especially with adult children, is worthless. The role the parent, I tell parents of adult children and emerging teenagers, 18 and older like that, that your role in your child's life, once they leave the home,

is that of the consultant.

And what I mean by that, the child, the adult child comes to you with a question. And that's what you have to wait for. You don't just volunteer the information. You listen, you mirror back what you hear. I can go into all this emptying out process if you wish me to. And then once they know that you really understand them, what you're doing when, I have to explain this or you won't understand what I'm getting at.

The emptying out process is using that language and keeping the focus on the child or the adult so they can actually take whatever is intense inside them and share it with you in what I term your soothing presence.

Now this term is important, I'll put it that way. What is a soothing presence? In its simplest form, a soothing presence is somebody who is okay when you are not okay.

David Marcus (11:17.411)
When adults think about who they turn to when they're upset, it's usually specific people, Friends, family, but specific people and invariably the people they turn to are okay when they're not.

And by letting them get the intensity of feelings out through their language in your soothing presence, A, it's a relief to get it off your chest, of course, but B, it gives them some safe emotional distance from their difficulty so they can begin to look at it for themselves. And the consultant is, okay, you go through this and you mirror back and say, gee, I can understand why this is so difficult for you. What can we do about it?

Now notice the we, all right? The we is called a merger. It's not what are you going to do about it, although with adults most of the time it is something like that. But if they're sharing it with you as a parent, it's what can we do to make this any better? And that's the constructive part. But once they have to be emptied out of all this intensity, all right? Now I'm gonna get a little more complicated with you. I hope it's on.

point because of course.

James Moffitt (12:34.67)
Can I, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Do me, do me a favor and get a little bit closer to your microphone. You're, you're, you're a little bit, a little bit soft.

David Marcus (12:42.367)
Okay, how's that? Is that better?

James Moffitt (12:46.604)
Yes, much better. Thank you.

David Marcus (12:48.353)
OK, I'm sorry. I didn't know. When you empty out somebody, can I go on? Or do you want to ask me a question? OK. What people don't understand, it's not simple empathy. And it's not simply getting off your chest. It's not just catharsis, all right, as the old term is. Emptying out somebody needs to be on three different levels. And this is what I really propose.

James Moffitt (12:49.742)
No, you're fine.

James Moffitt (12:55.148)
Yes, please. Yeah. No, no, go ahead.

David Marcus (13:16.695)
talk about in the book, Parenting Prescription. Because

is different levels of intensity of what a person's feeling when it's inside them. Three levels are this. And I usually use a simple example to give you an understanding of what I mean. You didn't take out the garbage. Well, the most superficial level is the here and now level. We have lots of words to describe, you should take out the garbage. It's beginning to smell. It's your chore. That's the logical part of things.

However, if this is the sixth time you've asked somebody to take out the garbage, the reaction is much more intense, right? But if you didn't know the history, that's the history level, not the here and now, but the history level. Someone who, you you go, well, no, no, you know, and somebody who doesn't know the history would say, what's the big deal? I didn't take out the garbage. So the logic begins to break down. The deepest level,

is what I call the tapped in two level, which means the fact that you didn't take out the garbage after I asked you six times means you don't listen to me. I hate when people don't listen to me. My brother didn't listen to me and I hated when he didn't. I this one can go anywhere. Unfortunately, what we do typically as parents is stay on level one and try to be logical to solve the problems. All right. When the intensity is really on level

to history and the tapped into level, level three. And if we don't get to those levels by letting somebody really use their language to express themselves, I mean, you can tell what level you're on. The top level is easy, but you know you're getting emptying out somebody on the history level when they say things like, you always do this or you never do that. Now they're referring to previous events that have colored their perception of you as a parent.

David Marcus (15:21.675)
And the deepest level, the tapped into, you when you do that, it makes me feel like X, Y, and Z, you know? All three levels have to be emptied out because if they're not emptied out, this is what happens. And this is viable for parents because this is what they face all the time, especially with individuating teenagers who insist on being, having their own opinions, et cetera, et cetera.

What happens when we're filled up? We all know when we're filled up with intense emotion. We have phrases that describe it. I've had it up to here. The straw that broke the camel's back, right? But what happens when we're filled up is what's important, because this is where people's communication breaks down.

Well, we don't like it when we're filled up. It bothers us. It feels intense, like we're not in control of our feelings, you know. So what do we do? As human beings, what we do is we try to deal with it. And we can deal with it in many, many different ways. We can journal. We can go for a run. We can watch TV. Whatever it is, to just cope with the intensity going on within us.

Therefore, by definition, James, we are focused inwardly on how we feel, which therefore also by definition means we're not focused on what people are saying to us.

David Marcus (16:54.775)
People I talk to all the time, I talk to him like until I'm blue in the face, he doesn't hear a word I say. It's like talking to a wall. You know, well, they're filled up. They're focused inwardly. You know, and so the emptying out process is very important, not only because it gets them gets the child to the place where they can actually even hear what you have to say.

And then you can add, yeah.

James Moffitt (17:22.856)
Is this during times of conflict that you're talking about, the emptying out process, or is this just any conversation you're having?

David Marcus (17:32.109)
Well, well, you know, ideally, optimally, this starts very young. OK. With very young children, they don't have the emotional language yet. So I advise parents to take some guesses with them. My guess is that was very tough for you, Billy. Yes, it was tough for me, Mom. Tough for me, Dad. Tough, sad, tough, mad, tough, frustrated, know, tough, sad.

How sad scale of one to 10, you know, mean, I mean, and this until they develop this language, sometimes I'll ask them to give me the description. I've had some great ones. Uh, one young man who was 10 and said, Oh, it makes me angry to, I get volcano mad, Dr. Marcus. And after that, whenever he got angry, I'd use that phrase because that was his language, common emotional language based on his experience. Was that, did that make you volcano mad?

or just eat your peas mad, which was another one he gave me. And by doing that, people feel like they're really, really listened to because you're really talking to them using their words, how they express things. And as parents, we miss this all the time. We just use our own words and assume that they have the same meaning that it has to our children.

It's fundamental to develop this common emotional language and it begins early. Now, when you're dealing with teenagers who are going through individuation, they really don't want to hear from you. You know, they don't, you know, and in some ways they're not incorrect because somehow what their bodies tell them, what their society tells them is somehow between the ages of 12 and 18, 19, they're supposed to become an adult. You know?

And they, whenever you talk and give advice that they don't want, they feel like you're treating them like a child and they're going to fight you. know? And so, you know, they may need the advice, which was like you said, the adolescent brain really isn't making great decisions, you know, but they're going to fight you on it. So how do you deal with that? You know, at that particular time, you see adults.

David Marcus (20:00.675)
children make turn to you for advice and then you're the consultant. You listen to what they have to say, they ask your opinion, you give an opinion, but then that's it. They can take your opinion or not take your opinion. That's what a consultant is. And by the way, James, I just described a really good mother-in-law too. Right? That's what a good mother-in-law does. So anyway, go ahead, ask your question. I can ramble on here.

James Moffitt (20:14.892)
Right? Right.

James Moffitt (20:28.492)
Well, I was, as I listened to you talk, one of the things that I did with my teenagers.

Is I, I, I was, transparent with them as I, as much as I could. And instead of talking at them or talking down to them or berating them for making stupid decisions, what I do is I would say, you know what, when I was 17, 18 years old, whatever, you know, I, personally, I was a dumpster fire when I was, you know, a young adult. That's a long story that we don't have to go into, but I was a dumpster fire. And I would tell my teenagers like, Hey,

Dad's not perfect. And here are some stupid things I did when I was younger, you know, and, the thing that, that my parents taught me that I tried to teach my children was think, think about what you're doing before you make a decision. Because when you, when you do something, when you make a decision and you act on something, those, those actions have consequences and some of those consequences can last you for the rest of your life. Right. like drinking and driving, taking drugs, hanging out with the wrong people.

You know, wind up with a felony and the next thing you know, you can't get a job because you got this felony hanging over your head. Right. And of course not everything's that, that extreme, but I tried to, I tried to be transparent and, as, as you know, real with them as I could to let them know that it's okay to make mistakes. And this is what I did. This is how it affected me. And these are, this is what I learned from that, you know, and I tried to, I tried to foster.

David Marcus (21:55.161)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (22:03.064)
those conversations into a learning event for them.

David Marcus (22:05.081)
Mm-hmm.

That can be part of the process that we're talking about. Now remember what I said, you have to prepare them to even hear what you have to say. You have to empty them out. So they can say, what do you think, dad? You know I mean? And now they're ready to hear what you have to say. All righty, they're not just focused inwardly anymore and trying to deal with how bad they feel. You know what I mean? So then you can say, this is what I went through.

But you got to make sure that they're emptied out and they're using, you know, based on their experience, because what parents do, and I don't know if you did this, what parents do is they jump in too soon. They say, oh, I went through the same thing and blah, blah, this is what I did. Therefore, you know, the implication is you should do what I did. They're not ready to hear it. Nor did they ask to hear it. You see what I mean? And we do this all the time. Take the benefit of my experience.

James Moffitt (23:02.584)
Sure.

David Marcus (23:06.167)
Well, I tell this to the parents that I see, know, you know, father turns to his 15 year old son and says, hey, look, when I was your age, I went out and drank 12 beers and ended up with my head in the toilet. Don't do that. Right. What does the 15 year old do? He goes out and drinks 15 beers and has his head in the toilet and says, I told you that was going to happen.

But you can bet your bottom dollar, James, that grandpa said the same thing to dad. I mean, we learn from our own experiences, you know, and so you see, that's, that's the tough part. You know, the tough part is, they ready to hear it? And the other part that you have to be careful of in expressing what you went through is that you don't make them responsible for how you feel. Some parents confide in their kids. it was.

James Moffitt (23:37.515)
yeah. Right.

David Marcus (24:00.833)
You know, I still suffer today from, you know, children are not geared for that. You know, this is a one way street. They're not geared to take care of their parents' emotions. You know, and so you gotta walk this line a little bit and follow the process in order to be effective with it. So what you did was fine it, but there's a first part to it, you know.

James Moffitt (24:25.698)
Right? Yeah, I didn't do that probably. I know that, you know, many years later, I'm a little more intelligent and schooled on what needs to be done. But I had a horrible childhood and my parents were, they adopted, it was a military family that adopted me and my sister and they provided all the things we needed physically.

roof over our head, food, medical care, all of that stuff. But they did not know how to demonstrate love to their children. Children were to be seen, not heard. You know, when we go to the relatives house, you sit on the couch, put your hands in your lap and you don't speak unless you're spoken to. We're not allowed to run around and be kids. And so how do, how do we parent when we have, we get married and we have children. We, we, it's, it's hard baked into us. We parent the way we were parented.

David Marcus (24:56.247)
Not emotionally.

David Marcus (25:01.357)
Right? Right.

David Marcus (25:10.539)
I see.

James Moffitt (25:22.848)
Right. And unless you can break that generational curse, which I tried to by listening to Dr. James Dobson, but way back in the day, you know, I'm a believer and my wife is, and, it's, we're Christians and we go to church. And so I wanted to break that generational curse and I wanted to not be my father to my children, you know, cause he was very heavy handed, very rough. And, did I make, did I slip into that from time to time? Absolutely.

David Marcus (25:23.222)
Exactly, right.

David Marcus (25:29.887)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Marcus (25:37.923)
Mm-hmm.

David Marcus (25:44.919)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (25:52.994)
Cause it's just, just part of my psychology, I guess. I mean, that's the way I was treated. And, and I would like to think that I did a lot better job, you know, for my kids. but nobody's perfect, you know? And, so this is good stuff.

David Marcus (25:54.077)
Yeah. Well.

Yeah.

David Marcus (26:08.953)
Okay, well, you I hear you. And there's another term I'll throw at you and your audience. It's called regression. You know, you're exactly right. We often parent the way we were parented, because that's what we know. Right. And when we get stressed, especially unanticipated stress, which children are marvelous at doing, you know what I mean? Yes.

James Moffitt (26:36.792)
Yes, they are.

David Marcus (26:39.959)
That's when we get the most stressed. And so we regress back to old ways of dealing with things.

Now, you, another term is you internalized. Okay, I'm getting pretty deep here, but I hope it's okay for your audience. The, you know.

James Moffitt (26:56.28)
Y'all know if absolutely.

David Marcus (27:00.973)
There's a process called internalization. And internalization is almost like subliminal learning. And actually, a sociological example of that is prejudice. It's not like somebody sits you down when you're 17, 18 years old and say, well, now you're going to hate Asian people or whatever it might be. Because by then, you've had your own experiences going, why would I do that? But if it's been

since you were three, four years old and you see the reactions and children are, and the jokes and the, and then you, you see the, you know, children are exquisitely aware of how their parents feel and they see the, you know, whatever it is that gets in there. All right. And so the reason I bring it up, the better example that when I'm talking about here is one of the things we internalize from our parents is how we react to stress.

James Moffitt (27:38.776)
Sure.

David Marcus (27:55.619)
This is one of the reasons that children who are abused, when they grow up, they will swear upside down and sideways. They will never do what they did to their kids. I mean, they're not going to do what happened to them, to their kids is what I'm trying to get at. And yet, at moments of regression, it happens and it gets passed on. You see, what I do when I talk to parents, I...

James Moffitt (28:09.272)
Sure.

David Marcus (28:22.059)
I don't say we're going to change, we're going to fine tune your parenting skills. We're going to recognize what you've internalized and what to do about it. So the regressions are minor because you know, okay, I don't want to go there and I know where I can go. See again, that's part of this emptying out process. As I learn about these people say, so now I understand why you do what you do. And so do they, you know, it actually helps a lot in marriage counseling.

Because people get stressed and they regress and they can't talk to one another. They're all filled up. And I talk to them about this. This is where you regress to. You're all filled up. You're not hearing one another. How do we empty out each other in a soothing way?

That's the process. a chain, you know, what you do with three-year-olds is everything you do with a ten-year-old, with an adult, you know what mean? But that's the process.

James Moffitt (29:20.204)
I got you. That's good stuff.

David Marcus (29:21.557)
OK. I hope it's OK. Yeah.

James Moffitt (29:25.752)
Yeah, so that'll bring us to the next question. How can the concept of being a soothing presence evolve for young adults?

David Marcus (29:35.659)
Okay. First of all is to understand that's the role. That's what you're trying to achieve. Now there's a lot of, which means you understand where you may regress to. If you have to take a break with your kids, take the break so you don't regress the ways you don't, you know, how you don't want to do it. All right. The awareness is really a great big part of it. Most people aren't aware of this internalization and regression thing that we're talking about now.

At least it's not on the tip of their tongue. They just figured that's the way it is. You know what I mean? But to be a soothing presence means, OK, there's more to it. The reason I use a presence rather than a soothing person is because there's a lot more to being a soothing presence than just being a nice, kind person who's not upset. Why do I say that? Because of exactly the things that your parents are going through, the stress of everyday life. That fills them up.

It may not be their kids. may, you know, may not, you know, it's like I had a horrible day at work. have, I have to work six hours tonight and I don't want to, you know, and then their kids stress them out and there they go. You see what I mean? Lifestyle. Sometimes I have to talk to parents about lifestyle, you know, and resources, you know, a lot of companies, big companies ship people off to go climb the corporate ladder to Wichita and they don't know anybody there.

They have no support. That's really tough. You know what I mean? On families. The external pressures on families as far as finances, et cetera.

keeping up with work. Everybody's a two income family these days, so everybody's busy. When do you have time to do this nice little fancy soothing presence emptying out thing? And yet that's how your children develop emotionally. Because if you do this, children become what is called resilient. They can now know how to cope with their emotions verbally as opposed to behaviorally. Right? And

David Marcus (31:44.417)
In children, that's called resilience, and in adults, we call it stress tolerance.

James Moffitt (31:50.766)
Okay.

David Marcus (31:51.021)
Now you see adults who don't go through this process or never incorporate this internalizes, you know, they get stressed and it's what we typically call going off half cocked. If you don't have an emotional language, you're still expressing yourself physically. Now a temper tantrum in a five year old, can deal with a temper tantrum.

And 18 year old is jail time. mean, you know, somewhere along the line, they've got to learn how to do this and they have to develop this language and they have to have the experience of being able to be emptied out and deal with things.

James Moffitt (32:22.478)
Right.

David Marcus (32:31.709)
vis-a-vis a soothing presence. this role of the parent, parents need to be a soothing presence for each other to deal with the stresses of everyday life as well as with about the stresses with their children, you know. So I tell parents the best gift you can give to your kids is to be okay yourself because then you can be this soothing presence for them, you know. People grab hold of these. mean, one of the reasons I wrote the book is because parents kept coming in and taking notes saying, Dr. Marcus, please

put this out there, because this is helpful to us because we didn't realize what we were doing. And of course they didn't. It was just internalized stuff that they didn't even wear, know, that this was just the way it was. So I'm tweaking their parenting skills and making them aware of this is how you're really trying to parent. It goes into discipline as well, but you know, that's another topic, you know, if you want to get into that. But in any case, it all comes down to how do you develop a lifestyle?

in a home life that where the parents can be soothing to their children and to each other.

You know, when I've talked to couples that are fighting and thinking about divorce, this has happened on a number of when they finally realize what they've internalized and what, where they regressed to and how they get filled up by what they do to one another. All of a sudden they can start to talk to one another in a much more meaningful way. And they say, you know, please write this down. This really helped us. And ironically, they bring.

They're coming to see me because their kids are showing symptoms of it. You know what mean? Which is totally familiar. And so as soon as they start getting better, the kids start not acting as bad because they feel, you know, safer. They feel less tension in the home, et cetera. know, so I never see children without seeing their parents for that reason. You know, I am not the agent of cure when I see a family. The parents are. And it's my job to get them to the place where they can.

James Moffitt (34:18.094)
Sure.

David Marcus (34:36.631)
I'm temporary. I tell parents all the time the purpose of coming to see me is to get rid of me. You know, to gain these understanding, these skills, show me if they're working. We'll tweak it if we need to because it's a learning process. And then once you've got it, see you around. I tell parents who have young children, come back to me when your child is 14 and paint their fingernails black and spike their hair. Then we'll have another conversation, you know.

James Moffitt (35:06.478)
Yeah, yeah, indeed. Oh, I bet, I bet. One of the things that I and several of the guests that I've had on here, we encourage parents to engage in self-care, step away from the battle, step away from the stress, mind, spirit, take care of yourself.

David Marcus (35:07.959)
And it happens, by the way. It does happen.

David Marcus (35:32.985)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (35:33.814)
And a lot of times I'm talking to the moms more than the dads, because the moms are typically more in the battle and more engaged with the children than the dads are or can be. And, part of self care is coming to visit somebody like you and getting, you know, going to see a therapist or a counselor or, know, like you, a clinical psychologist or whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know, and I know, you know, probably back in the sixties and the seventies, there was a little bit of a taboo about that.

David Marcus (35:42.883)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (36:03.01)
You know, nobody wanted to talk about having issues or, or getting therapy or talking to a family therapist or anything like that. But, but, know, today I think it's okay. and I think, I think people are society is a little more aware, self-aware of the need to do that. Right. So that's, that's another reason I wanted to.

David Marcus (36:14.925)
Yeah, I agree.

David Marcus (36:21.175)
I agree with you. You know, it's interesting to me, you know, I would, my wife and I would go to football games and stuff when my son was in high school and I was seeing some of the kids who were at the game, you know, and of course confidentiality would say, I'm not approaching them, you know, but they come up to me with their friends and they say, Hey, Dr. Marcus, Hey guys, I want you to meet my shrink. I'm going.

Okay, you know, hi, how you doing? You know, they thought that they thought it was cool. mean, okay, but you're right back in the 60s and 70s. No, you know, it was a stigma to go see a counselor or therapist, was something wrong with you. Everything we're talking about today is basically human nature and what your children need. You know, so where's where's the stigma?

James Moffitt (36:50.483)
boy. There you go.

James Moffitt (37:03.875)
Right?

David Marcus (37:15.065)
You see, and I think that times have changed. I think it is much more acceptable. Yeah. So, know, yeah.

James Moffitt (37:20.938)
Absolutely. in a lot of ways, I'll talk about church. know, church is not filled with perfect people. know, church is like a hospital because we're all sick in some way and we need help, right? We need to learn how to love. We need to understand what grace and empathy and forgiveness and all of those qualities are, right?

David Marcus (37:40.025)
Okay.

David Marcus (37:47.757)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (37:50.466)
You know, my, my desire or my vision for this podcast and for that parenting support group is on Facebook is so that people can be encouraged and that they can get the, the tools and the resources they need to get the help that they need with fixing things within, within them as parents, well as dealing with their children and helping their children grow, grow up into healthy, mature adults. Right.

David Marcus (38:19.533)
Yes.

James Moffitt (38:19.774)
And, so anyway, that's my, that's what I'm hoping that this podcast will provide.

David Marcus (38:22.881)
Well, you know, I hope the information we're talking about is helpful. You know, what's helpful with the church community, in my opinion, is that sense of fellowship, because that's soothing. You know, it's, you know, we're in this together. We all care about one another. That's an outlet. That's something parents need. You know, one of the things that we are lacking now that was much more present in the fifties and sixties.

is this sense of community. We don't have that. I I remember when I was a child, I'm 74 years old, so back in the 50s and 60s, we'd have block parties and get all the neighbors. And I read an article once which might interest you, James, because they said one of the reasons why we don't have that anymore is air conditioning.

James Moffitt (39:19.372)
That makes a lot of sense.

David Marcus (39:20.791)
Well, you think about the old homes that have this big veranda and people would sit out and you know, because it was cooler outside and that people would be walking because it was, you know, by them because it was cooler outside and people get to know one another. Now we're all cocooned inside our homes because of the air conditioning. It's too hot outside now. So yeah, there you go. You know, it's funny how the times can can affect us.

James Moffitt (39:25.261)
Yeah.

Sure.

James Moffitt (39:34.947)
Right.

James Moffitt (39:40.268)
Right? Right?

James Moffitt (39:48.418)
Yes, society has changed for sure.

David Marcus (39:51.961)
Well, one of the biggest changes is the two income families. mean, there's nobody home. I mean, it used to be you'd run the streets with your friends, you'd duck into somebody's house. know, typically mom was home, you know, but now two incomes. And even then, it's not like you leave the work at the office because of laptops and cell phones. You're always on. You know, did you ever see the movie Inherit the Wind? You know,

James Moffitt (40:12.29)
Right? Right?

James Moffitt (40:20.654)
I don't think so.

David Marcus (40:22.051)
It was about the Scopes monkey trial back in the 20s, where the guy was teaching evolution and it was against the law to teach evolution. It was a true story, actually. And one of the speeches that Clarence Darrow, was actually a lawyer, he turns to the audience of the jury and says, know, progress is a cost of progress.

Women, you can have the vote, but you can't hide behind your powder puff anymore. You can fly like the birds, but the clouds will stink of gasoline and the birds will lose their wonder. But the one I remember the best is you can have a telephone, but you lose the charm of distance. And that's true. We don't have any distance anymore. Everything's intruding on us. Yes. And that is...

James Moffitt (41:11.596)
Right. It's instant access.

David Marcus (41:20.449)
It's efficient, there's a cost. That's the point. There's a cost to it.

James Moffitt (41:25.932)
Well, I, you know, I do it support for a living. So I'm very, very in tune with technology. And I know the positives of the connectivity and being able to work remote and the Lord, know, email 24 by seven phone calls and voicemails 24 by seven. And there's, there are times I personally turn it off. You know, I turn it off. like it's like at six o'clock.

David Marcus (41:46.091)
yeah.

James Moffitt (41:54.67)
After I'm done with the podcast interview, I shut the laptop off and I go sit in front of the TV and watch, uh, you know, six o'clock news and then, uh, NBC nightly news with Lester Holt. And I just turn all that off. And especially, especially in this, in this political climate that we're in right now, all the, all the negativity, all the negativity, right? I'm just like, you can't get away from it. You can't get away from it unless you turn it off at the source.

David Marcus (42:02.861)
Mm-hmm.

David Marcus (42:09.113)
Very good. Good.

David Marcus (42:13.769)
please don't talk. Don't talk about it. No, no.

James Moffitt (42:24.214)
You know, that includes the TV too. So sometimes it's, sometimes it's good just to pick up a book and turn the TV and the radio and the internet off. Right.

David Marcus (42:26.571)
You're right. You're absolutely right.

David Marcus (42:32.953)
Yeah, for me, it's music. I play Irish music, you want to know. Guitar, mandolin, something called an octave mandolin. I'm in three different bands. I do musical theater. You know, I sing. This is my release. And I need it, you know? And I'll be very honest with you, I turn off all the politics because it's...

James Moffitt (42:36.846)
They're all that too, yeah?

James Moffitt (42:41.176)
Okay.

James Moffitt (42:48.494)
James Moffitt (42:54.764)
Right. Sure.

David Marcus (43:02.381)
I'm preserving my own mental health, tell you the truth. mean, I just don't, don't, there's nothing I can do about it. I'd just rather not look at it. You know, not right now anyway. And we don't want to take that any deeper. Yeah, please. You know, it's like, no, we don't want to go there.

James Moffitt (43:04.428)
Right. Absolutely.

James Moffitt (43:14.907)
no, no, yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

All right, so we're talking about, we're talking about something else. what are frequent communication blocks parents face with adult children?

David Marcus (43:31.545)
Okay, I've already gone through a couple of them, all right? When you jump in too soon to give your advice or, I went through this and blah, blah, blah, you're cutting off that emptying out process and they're not ready to hear you. It also gives the impression to your child, even your adult child, that you're not listening. And after a while, that emotional perception becomes, bother to talk to my dad? He doesn't listen. You see what I mean?

James Moffitt (43:34.285)
Right. Right.

David Marcus (44:00.419)
So that's why it begins earlier. But okay, you can make up for this with this understanding of how do you empty out somebody? How do you, and what you might have to empty out at first, and this is a little deeper. Let's assume for a second that you haven't been doing this emptying out process. You've been trying to make your child feel better by saying, just do this and you'll be fine. Or, yeah, I went through a two. Or,

Maybe you get defensive. no, no, no, that's not the way it was. A lot of people deny their children's feelings because they can't face them.

You know, or they try to laugh it off. They say, you know, and they make a joke of it's trying to make the child feel better by making it lighter. No, if someone did that to you. OK, if somebody did any of these things to you, if it was a good friend, you'd say to them, just hear me out. Right. If it wasn't a good friend, you'd say thank you and go find a good friend. You know what mean? Right.

James Moffitt (45:01.646)
Right exactly exactly

David Marcus (45:04.408)
And yet we do this with our kids all the time. All the time. know, parents think I'm, you know, you're a psychologist. You really mean this? say, yeah, I wish I could take the words make feel better out of parenting vocabulary. If it wasn't, it doesn't work for you. Why would it work for your child? The only difference is you may say something, but your seven year old is not going to say anything. They're just going to, uh huh. And you think you solve the problem.

until the same thing happens next time and they're just as upset as they were the first time. I thought we talked about this. No, you didn't. You think you did. You talked at your child thinking, okay, he shut up. I guess he's feeling better. No, no. All you did was make it unsafe for him to tell you because the seven year old is not going to say, well, you just shut up and listen. He's not going to do that. You know? And so, so there was some of the ways you can get in the way.

make light of it, try to redirect the child rather, you know, just to take their mind off it. Sometimes that has to, you have to do that because you can't have this big, conversation when you're trying to get them off to school. You know what mean? I understand that. but you can come back to it, you know, you know, giving the benefit of your experience when they don't really want it or need it, not using words that have a meaning to you, but it's a different meaning to them, you know, and

So you're off base there.

They children need, like I explained earlier, develop this emotional language and the use of it because you need it. You know, I saw a young man who really was afraid of his father because his father would explode. Father had no emotional language. OK, he was just explode. He came in to see me one time and says, you know, my dad had an argument with a neighbor and he punched the neighbor and the neighbor fell down.

David Marcus (47:04.409)
hit his head and now he's paralyzed. And my father's now in, now my father's in prison for the next 15 years. And he smiled, he smiled at me. He said, this is, don't, you know, he felt bad for the person. said, but I am so relieved not to have to deal with my father. You know what I mean? You know, and that, so, you know, these things have, have meaning. These things can, can, can really have an impact, you know.

James Moffitt (47:07.31)
geez.

James Moffitt (47:12.114)
wow.

James Moffitt (47:24.92)
wow.

David Marcus (47:33.741)
Being the soothing presence, developing it, knowing what you're doing, knowing how to empty out people, knowing if they're filled up, they're not going to hear you. All these things are important as a parent. And with young children, you can help them develop this common emotional language with you. can sue them and then they can, they internalize that soothing presence and now they can sue themselves and they can sue their own children. Instead of what you got, you know, as far as, you know, the military culture is a very, you know, rules oriented culture.

James Moffitt (47:53.432)
Right.

David Marcus (48:03.928)
You know, people who are drawn to the military want a very firm structure, you know? And so it reflects in their parenting. You know, like I said, the British stiff upper lip, you know, I mean, there's cultural things here, all right? So what I try to do is get beyond that and say, OK, this is what you're trying to accomplish. And you're not used to it, so you're going to have to learn.

James Moffitt (48:04.11)
Yep.

David Marcus (48:31.129)
And it's definitely a learning process and you're going to fall down sometimes and you're going to get stressed when you do take a break, let your spouse take over. You know what mean? This is one of the reasons why opposites attracting is a good thing because what upsets you may not upset your spouse and they can take over as a soothing presence. see? So, you know, there's all these things. That's why it's so much more difficult also for single parents because they don't have that other person to sue them.

and they can't turn to their children to be soothed. You know, I see acting out teenage girls and the mom comes to me and says, I don't understand that. Me and my daughter, we're like best friends. And I go, there's the problem. They don't need you as a best friend. They need you as a soothing presence. They need you as a parent. So, you know, there's so many ways you can, you know, that things, I'm not going to say mess it up. There's things that get in your way. That's how I put it.

James Moffitt (49:15.746)
Right.

David Marcus (49:28.803)
There are things that get in your way that you need to understand so that they don't get in your way anymore. And I engage these people's psychological mindedness and their emotional intelligence, whatever you want to call it, and say. And in the book, Parenting Rx, Parenting Prescription, I actually give examples. Parents says, child says, parents says, child says, parents says. And I put annotations saying, this is what you accomplished when you said this. This is what you accomplished when you said.

Because parents really need that kind of guidance. say, how do I do this? They say, I wish you were in my ear on Thursday night, Dr. Marcus, because I really needed to, know, when I was talking to my daughter. So that's what the books are.

James Moffitt (50:14.222)
All right, instead of asking you more questions, I think what I want to do at this point is give you, we'll say five minutes for like a summary or an elevator speech. What would you tell the parents that are listening to this podcast episode?

David Marcus (50:32.152)
The first thing to realize is that you're a human being and that you need to be sued yourself. And if you can't sue yourself, you need people in your life that can help you because you need to take care of yourself if you're going to be good for your kids. You need to think about your lifestyle. If it's too stressful, if you're too busy, you don't have time with your children, you need to think about that. right. Realize that

How you raise your kids is at least partly based on how you were raised, which makes total sense, but there's more that you can learn. We can tweak your parenting skills so that you can be a soothing presence for your child. And that's the wonderful legacy that you can pass on to them. Talking about breaking the pattern that you were talking about when you were talking about your own family. Yes, that's exactly what you're trying to do. How do you handle your own regressions? How do you...

You know, develop a common emotional language with your child. How do you take care of yourself so you can be a soothing presence? How do you control your life so you can do that? These are hard things to do. I'm not saying it's easy. It's not easy. But if you understand it, you can try to make modification. And I tell people, try it. The proof is in the pudding. If you see the tension and the misbehavior in yourself and your kids going down, then you're on the

The proof is in the pudding. There you go. So find somebody, of course you can read the book, but you need more than just my book. You need somebody to tweak these skills. To say, okay, okay, this is where I messed up. This is where I can do better. And when they do that, and I know parents are really doing better with their kids when instead of me telling them what I've heard from their children,

and what they need to do, they come to me and say, this is what my child is telling me. Your child now feels safe enough to talk to you and you're really hearing them. That's progress. And that's when I start saying, OK, maybe you don't need me anymore. Again, I'm not permanent. I'm just temporary. And so get what you need from me as a resource.

David Marcus (52:59.799)
and then go forth. I mean, I've been at it so long. I'm now seeing the children I saw and now adults coming to me about their own kids, know, this type of thing. And it's kind of funny because I say, well, maybe it didn't work back then. no, they're coming back to me and they said, because I need to brush up Dr. Marcus. I now have a child of my own. I want to do it.

James Moffitt (53:21.634)
Right. That's good.

David Marcus (53:23.737)
Yeah, so you know that comes with age I guess you know, I've been at it a while

James Moffitt (53:27.5)
Right. It's good stuff. All right. So for, to the listening audience, here's a little takeaway. it says the listeners will gain practical strategies for enhancing communication and fostering healthier relationships with their adult children, focusing on emotional connection and conflict resolution. Dr. Marcus, I appreciate you being on the episode today and, there's a lot of good information there. And I think certainly, the listening audience is going to get something out of it.

yeah, you can listen to this podcast to my listening audience. Thank you for the privilege of your time and for listening to this episode. You can listen to this podcast on activate.fm Amazon music, I heart radio, Apple podcast and public radio. You can watch the video episode on rumble rumble.com. Our website is located. Huh? Yeah. Our website.

David Marcus (53:58.201)
Thank you for having me.

David Marcus (54:21.507)
Can I, okay, I just want to give him, let it, go ahead, finish up and I want to give him my website, things like that too. Thank you.

James Moffitt (54:27.896)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Our website is located at parenting adult children.org that's parenting adult children.org. The website provides my contact information. You can leave me a voicemail. You can leave, you can write me an email and I'll respond. There's an upcoming show schedule in the blog. just go into the blog and search for schedule and you can see the upcoming, episodes and there's a place to leave a review for this podcast as well. There's a review button at the top of the web page.

click on it and leave a review for any episode that you listen to. If you're on, you got an iPhone or an iPad and you have your, you're listening to the episode on an Apple, Apple podcast. you there's, have a right there. There's a little review button. can click and you can leave a review while you're listening to it. And I'd appreciate that. New, new episodes are released every Friday morning at 8 a.m. and Dr. Marcus, you want to tell them about your website?

David Marcus (55:23.577)
Yes, as I said, you know, this I'm doing the webcast because I'm publishing a book on exactly what we're talking about today, to tell you the truth. And the title of it is Parent Prescription, Parent RX. And that's my website, too. It's P-A-R-E-N-T-R-X, all one word, dot org. And you'll see my other podcasts there and.

Like I said, the book is forthcoming. It's not out yet. But I'll be glad to answer anybody's questions. My email address is dsmarcus, D-S-M-A-R-C-U-S, PhD, at parentrx.org.

James Moffitt (56:10.52)
Very good. That's awesome. Well, thank you for being here. I enjoyed the conversation and to the listening audience, I'll say have a good evening or a good morning wherever you're living and we'll talk to you later.