From Distance to Connection: Supporting Your LGBTQ+ Adult Child

Key words

LGBTQ+, parenting, grief, relationships, storytelling, empathy, personal growth, creativity, emotional intelligence, family dynamics, LGBTQ+, parenting, acceptance, emotional intelligence, family dynamics, identity, relationships, advice for parents, societal norms, validation

summary

In this episode of the Parenting Adult Children podcast, host James Moffitt speaks with Paul Cramm about the intersection of creativity, empathy, and LGBTQ+ representation. The conversation delves into personal stories of loss, the complexities of parental relationships, and the importance of understanding and accepting diverse identities. Paul shares his experiences growing up in a fundamentalist environment and the challenges he faced in coming out, while James reflects on his relationship with his late son, Jeremy, who identified as LGBTQ+. Together, they explore the significance of open communication and the need for inclusive spaces for discussions about identity and family dynamics. In this conversation, Paul Cram and James Moffitt explore the complexities of growing up gay, the dynamics of family acceptance, and the importance of emotional intelligence in parenting. They reflect on their personal experiences, the societal changes regarding LGBTQ+ acceptance, and offer advice for parents on how to foster healthy relationships with their children. The discussion emphasizes the need for validation, understanding, and the freedom to pursue one's dreams and aspirations without the constraints of societal expectations.

I

Richard Jones. I am an RN with over 34 years of Nursing Experience, much of that experience working with young adults in the corrections system. 

Transcript

James Moffitt (00:01.228)
Hello and welcome to Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffitt. I'll be your host. Today we have Paul Cramm, who is our special guest speaker. Paul, how are you?

Paul Cram (00:11.306)
I'm doing really well, James. Thanks for having me on.

James Moffitt (00:13.554)
Yeah. Yeah. Do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

Paul Cram (00:16.928)
Absolutely. Yes. My name is Paul, Paul Cram. I do a lot of acting. I'm an actor, performer. I'm a book lover, avid book reader, all those kinds of things. And I think this will come into play a little bit later too for our conversation, but I am one of seven kids.

James Moffitt (00:37.904)
wow.

Paul Cram (00:38.936)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (00:40.94)
Are you youngest, oldest or in the middle?

Paul Cram (00:43.08)
I am right in there with Jan Brady. I'm right in the middle.

James Moffitt (00:47.112)
Okay. Very good. So I'm going to read this off of your, your pod match profile. I think we can kind of springboard off of that. it says Paul cram offers us perspective on bridging creativity and empathy and handling life's complexities like acting storytelling and LGBTQ plus representation. The episode could explore how storytelling and emotional intelligence aid in navigating relationships and personal growth.

So I have to admit that when I read your profile and was deciding whether or not this was a good fit for the listening audience or for the podcast in general, of course I flashed back to the fact that my son Jeremy Moffat passed away back in January of this year. And he was...

He identified with the LGBTQ plus lifestyle. And I was, I am not ashamed of that in any shape, form or fashion. I will say that I am in my sixties and, and I'm somewhat conservative. I'm Christian Christ follower, yadda, yadda, yadda. Right. So having said all of that, I would like to think that I am not judgmental.

or homophobic when it comes to talking to or talking about the LGBTQ plus folks, right? I don't know whether to say people, lifestyle, folks, whatever, you know, however you want to label it. I hate labeling people. Yeah. So, I think, I think for some people, I'll just, I'll just say that. Well, let's just do this. I did a, I did a,

Paul Cram (02:31.054)
However you want to say it, yeah, I'm with you on that.

James Moffitt (02:47.328)
celebration of life video on YouTube. My handle on YouTube is Chief Propellerhead. Just search for James Moffitt, M-O-F-F-I-T-T or Chief Propellerhead and insert, you'll see, I don't have a whole lot of videos on there, but one of them was a celebration of life video, I about 20, 30 minutes. And I talked about his life and all of that, all of the above. But let's share his picture. I think I would be remiss and not.

sharing his picture. see, let's go screen. Let me see how I can do this.

Do be little there

James Moffitt (03:27.948)
No, I don't want that

James Moffitt (03:34.284)
Chrome tab, no, window. I want a window. Here we go. Here we go. Share. Okay. So there he is. I don't know how old Jeremy was in that picture. That's probably one of the better ones that I have of him. he's eating something. He's got a spoon in his mouth.

James Moffitt (03:54.252)
It's, probably, uh, not one of his better pictures, you know? Um, let's see. Let's do this.

Paul Cram (04:02.776)
There's something around the eyes. There's something. You can definitely tell they're ear related.

James Moffitt (04:09.324)
Yeah. Um, let me see. Let me go to iCloud photos library. Let's do this. Okay. So there's a picture of him there. Uh, that's not a bad picture. Uh, and, uh, if you go down, here's a picture of, of Jeremy when, um, my kids, uh, that's, that's Jessica. And I lost her in 2001 to, uh, brain cancer.

Paul Cram (04:18.435)
Yeah.

Not at all.

James Moffitt (04:36.748)
This dude is Justin. He's now 30 years old, just turned 30 and he's a, uh, an attorney and, had a law firm in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, which is just, uh, north of Charleston, South Carolina. Christina there she's, she is now 32, 33, and she lives in downtown, uh, Charleston. And of course you see these other pictures. This is, uh, you know, quite a long time ago, about 20 years ago.

Paul Cram (04:56.013)
love this.

James Moffitt (05:06.996)
thereabouts. So that's his photo. So we'll just kind of dub this episode as a celebration of life for Jeremy as well. let me see.

Paul Cram (05:15.694)
Yeah, yeah. No, thanks for sharing. It's always nice to not just hear the name, but see it a photo too. It makes it so, I don't know, it's a really good thing. And it's fun to see a little bit of a family resemblance there. And also to hear your, I can tell it reminds me a little bit of my own dad. It reminds me of my dad when he would talk about myself or my siblings and that sort of,

James Moffitt (05:24.968)
yeah, absolutely.

Paul Cram (05:46.242)
glowing pride and in what you've accomplished as a parent. So I appreciate you sharing that photo and then also sharing too, I'm sorry for your loss. that's, that is, it's hard.

James Moffitt (05:59.052)
Well, no parent should have to bury their children. It's supposed to be the other way around. anyway, Jeremy, I think the last time we saw him in person was in 2009 when he came down to visit. had a male friend with him.

Paul Cram (06:03.95)
Exactly. It's supposed to be. Yeah.

James Moffitt (06:19.84)
He and I were disconnected, estranged, however you want to say that. We weren't real close. And, and he, he, he was born in June, no, April 14th, 1986. And me and his mother were married for about two years. Anyway, long story short, we got a divorce and Jeremy was probably three or four years old. And I was working as a senior network analyst at

Paul Cram (06:25.432)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

James Moffitt (06:48.908)
Herman hospital in downtown Houston, Texas, uh, in the, the, uh, health science center, uh, down there. It's Anyway, uh, long story short, or maybe not long story short. We, we moved, I moved to, uh, I moved to Atlanta, Georgia and went to work for Delta airlines for a couple of years. And anyway, uh, my moving that far away was detrimental to our relationship. Uh, Coie is quite young at that point.

Paul Cram (07:02.144)
I was going to say, yeah, not really.

James Moffitt (07:18.764)
and I tried as best as I could to stay in contact with him. so anyway, we became friends on Facebook and I, have remained friends with him on Facebook and.

For better or for worse, I had to unfollow his newsfeed because some of his pictures were, I don't know, over the top. Yes. You could say he, he, he he liked to cross dress when he dresses as a woman and put on makeup. looked just like his mother. And that was kind of freaky to me. It was like, Oh, no, no, no. So anyway, we, we unfollowed him. stayed, tried to stay in contact. Uh, he reached out to me for.

Paul Cram (07:43.112)
Sure. Sure.

Paul Cram (07:49.966)
You're like, this is too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yup. Yup.

James Moffitt (08:02.102)
some assistance, you financial assistance from time to time. And I was able to help him and, and I left messages on his voicemail, you know, trying to keep a conversation going and for whatever reason it fell apart. so we, we became somewhat disconnected. So anyway, at the end of the end of December, I found out that he was in Sparrow hospital up in Michigan, Lansing, Michigan, and he had got, had RSV of the lungs and,

Then he, was in, he was in ICU for five weeks. And I really was hoping that, that he would survive that and that he would wind up in rehab. Next step would have been rehab. And then I could make a trip up there and, try to, try to re reconnect that bond and, and, you know, get back in contact with him and, and repair whatever relationship was or wasn't there. And, well, anyway, he wound up having a couple of heart attacks.

Paul Cram (09:01.43)
Oof. Oof.

James Moffitt (09:01.839)
Uh, in January, he survived the first one he coded. The doctor called me and says, Hey, he just coded. We were able to revive him. And then, so I, I had his best friend's mother, uh, on the phone and I tried to get ahold of his stepdad, couldn't get ahold of his stepdad. His stepdad called me and said, Oh, Hey, you know, Jeremy just passed away. He had a heart attack. And I'm like, I just got off the phone with the hospital and they said that he survived it. They said, well, he had another one and he didn't survive that one. And I was like, well, shit.

Amongst other things.

Paul Cram (09:32.686)
No, exactly. I am acquainted with grief in a different way. So I really, really feel for you in all of that. And especially to like those phone calls, when you get a phone call and it's related to that medical stuff and then you're like, wait, no, I just talked to, you know, those kinds of things can be so.

James Moffitt (09:58.343)
yeah, it was crazy.

Paul Cram (10:02.23)
Yeah, especially that idea that's like, no, no, no, I just got off the phone with them. It's fine. It's good. And then it's not. then it's, I mean, the emotional roller coaster on top of everything that, yeah, I don't have much more to say to that. It's just, it's, yeah, but.

James Moffitt (10:19.916)
Yeah. I think one of the, one of the things that I think was the, uh, nail in the, the nail and the last nail in the coffin was, uh, no pun intended there, but he was, he was very heavy. He was quite heavy. And, uh, uh, and obviously, obviously any doctor will tell you if you're morbidly obese, uh,

Paul Cram (10:33.51)
Right

Yeah. Yeah.

James Moffitt (10:44.788)
It's not good and it affects all your system, especially your heart. And I think ultimately that's what did him in was, was the fact that he was so overweight. And, anyway, now that I've got all that out,

Paul Cram (10:56.588)
No, I appreciate you sharing all that, James. it, I just echo what you said. is, it is on, it's not how we as human beings, it's like we're wired to, it is not, it's not, I don't know if the word is normal for a parent to bury their child. That's not, that is just not how that goes. And it's not natural, no.

James Moffitt (11:21.804)
It's not natural.

Paul Cram (11:27.682)
There's some things in there though, and I just, I think you probably know these. I just want to echo them back to you. I so appreciate as someone who is a gay man, I so appreciate that you reached out to your son and that you, that you tried and you, and you, and you made efforts. I also to like kind of share with listeners that are listening. When I reached out to you before I reached out to you and was like, I'd be interested to talk with you. I also was kind of looking at your

the podcast and what you're doing. And I was like, ah, like I would love to talk, but I don't know if I'm welcome. And so that was kind of my first message to you. was like, I have things to share, but I'm not sure if they're welcome in this place. I appreciated your note back and I appreciate talking with you. And I say that as one who, I grew up in a very, very fundamentalist religious upbringing.

James Moffitt (12:14.518)
Yeah.

Paul Cram (12:26.146)
And I have a duality with that where I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate certain things about what I grew up in and the belief system. And then there's this other side of it where it's like, that was really, really, really hard for me. And what I mean by that is, you know, growing up in a big family, being in the middle, I grew up kind of out in the country here in the Midwest, in Minnesota.

you know, my family, weren't, weren't rich by any means, very blue collar. And I will just say like my, my father and my parents, they got involved in, when I say fundamentalist religion, they, they started to go pretty extreme with it. and meaning, and by that, I mean like, I'm not, I'm not against religion at all. Like I, I think there's really great things within it. My parents got involved though in

What I would, this isn't even me making this up. They got involved in some, I guarantee they were on some FBI terrorist watch lists with some of the things that they were getting involved in. And I guess that's, I'm sharing that only from the perspective. It's like, this was, this wasn't just nice. This was like, this is, this is, this is extremism. And so they took, and that was kind of what I was growing up in when I hit adolescence.

James Moffitt (13:34.796)
my god.

Paul Cram (13:51.82)
was in this environment where it's like, they're doing some stuff that is sketchy, related to government and politics and religion and all these things. And there's a part of me, I'll be honest, I appreciate that they stood up for something. I so appreciate that. They just took it a little too far. But so that was what I was kind of was around me when I hit puberty. And everybody knows it's, puberty is an awkward, weird, just experience in general for everyone.

For me though, it was that time when I realized I was like, I'm gay. And I'm surrounded by a family that is like kind of scary when it comes to things they don't agree with. And so I really just squashed that down and did not acknowledge it. And I think my purpose in being here and talking to you too is it's the piece where I want to say, my gosh, parents that are listening to this.

So much respect. actually already think you're probably 10 steps ahead. Just by the fact that you're listening to something like this tells me so much about what kind of a parent you are. There are parents out there that are horrible. There are parents. I mean, you know, just taking an effort.

James Moffitt (15:02.892)
Sure. Well, I want to kind of backtrack just a little bit. And I want to talk to the listening audience about this podcast episode. I have had, we have a parenting support group on Facebook that we started in 2015 when Jessica, not Jessica, when Christina and Justin were still teenagers and giving me a run for my money. And I was desperately trying to stay out of prison. Luckily I did.

Paul Cram (15:08.151)
Yes, please.

Paul Cram (15:27.512)
Ha ha ha.

James Moffitt (15:31.628)
Cause I didn't want a boyfriend and, uh, I didn't want that force on me and I don't like orange either. So anyway, I told my wife, Katie, said, uh, said let's start a Facebook support group for parents. And let's see if anybody else is having these problems. And we started out with 10 members back in 2015 and I think we're up to 1.3 thousand now. And so it just took off and, and, and there's a lot of support for young children, toddlers, teenagers, even.

Paul Cram (15:33.006)
Ha

James Moffitt (16:01.58)
Uh, but there's not a lot of support for adult children and I'm talking the age group of 18 to 30. Okay. And, so it's a very specialized niche and, uh, you know, you're, you're going to be like episode 87 or 88. I forget which it'll come out in December, but I was accused at one point on my, uh, or somebody labeled me on, on the, uh, somebody had left a message and said,

I don't, I'm not really sure this group is for me because it looks like it's Christian based. And I thought that was kind of odd because it's not necessarily faith based, right? If it's faith based at all, I'm, I kind of want to follow. I want to follow the DEI standard, you know, what does that stand for? quality inclusion, diversity, diversity, quality inclusion. In other words,

I don't care if you're Muslim, I don't care if you're Buddhist, I don't care if you're fundamentalist Christian, I don't care if you're Southern Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, whatever your faith is, that's not what this podcast is about. And I want to, I want everybody listening to this to feel included, you know, and I want you to know that, that I personally, nor this podcast, has a right or the authority to stand in judgment over anybody. Right.

Paul Cram (17:00.076)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

James Moffitt (17:27.856)
And, I haven't, think I want to say that you're probably the first, gay man that I've had on the podcast. And, and I also want to say that I would like to believe that I'm not the only parent that had a son. He told me he was gay. I am sure that, that there are parents out there that, can identify with this. Right. And so I, as I was thinking of.

Paul Cram (17:36.408)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Cram (17:43.256)
Ha ha ha.

James Moffitt (17:54.634)
Okay. Well, how is Paul going to fit into this podcast? You know, what are we going to talk about? You know, is this, is this really the direction I want to go? And then of course, Jeremy popped into my head and I was like, you know, yes, yes, absolutely. Paul can come on the, on the show and, and, talk about his life and, all, all of that. So that's what this podcast episode is about is, allowing you to have a platform to talk about your story. We all have stories. You have a story and.

Paul Cram (18:05.422)
Hahaha.

James Moffitt (18:24.24)
I think it would behoove my listeners, especially those parents that have children that have come out and said, Hey, I'm part of the LGBTQ plus a binary. it's getting longer and longer by the day, but.

Paul Cram (18:38.506)
It's, it's, it's, I will acknowledge it's slightly ridiculous, but yes, it's, it's a lot.

James Moffitt (18:46.614)
So yeah, I just want to let you know and the listening audience know that everybody's on equal footing here. is appreciated, loved by God and whatever your God's name is, know, whatever that is, whatever that resonates with you is fine with me. Okay. And I'll also say as a Christian that I've been a Christian a long time.

I was in street ministry earlier on in my 20s for 10 years in Houston, Texas, and I've seen a lot. And I've read the Bible through four or five times in my lifetime. Every time I read it, I find that there are things that I don't know. You know, and the older I get, the more I realize there are things that I don't understand. Right. And, you know, like I said, I, I, I know that fundamentalist

Christians on the the Like how do I say this in the middle? There's a lot of balance, right?

And if you move too far to the right, then there's going to be extremes. It's an extremism. And if you go too far to the left, there's a lot of extremism. So I like to try to practice as much objectivity as I can with regards to these sort of things. And I like to not be too closed minded. And I'll just be honest for the record.

Paul Cram (20:07.31)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (20:27.242)
I don't really understand what it means to be gay, right? I just been straight all my life. You know, I don't understand what it means to be gay. told my son, said, I love you. You're my son. You'll always be my son. I even told him, I said, if you decide to get married to some dude and you want me to come to the wedding, I'll come to the wedding and I'll be there for you. I'll be there for you because ultimately as his father, I want him to be happy. Right?

Paul Cram (20:31.971)
Yeah.

Paul Cram (20:55.51)
And that's, I love all that. Like that's, I will say this, James, I wish that that would have been what my father would have told me. My father, unfortunately, did not say that. He, and I guess that this would be my question, maybe question or just thought for listeners and kind of why I'm here too.

And it is that thing is it's like, what do you want your relationship with your children to be like? And I mean that now, and I mean that in five years, 10 years, 20, you know what I'm saying? Like kind of setting a platform for that. But also what space are you making for that? I feel like what you just said, James, reminds me of, I remember being again, kind of in that Adela, I think I was 19 years old when my dad finally asked me.

because I wasn't, I was just petrified. I was so scared that people would learn that I was gay. But there was a point when, I think I was 19, I remember this just clear as day, I was standing in our kitchen, it was just me and my dad, and he just point blank looked at me and he was pretty cut and dried. And he's just like, so are you into girls?

And I hope you can hear in the tone of even the tone of voice that he used, I was like, this is not okay for me to be this. And I'll be honest, I lied right through my teeth. This was not a space in which me as his son that I would be welcomed or that it would be, I don't love the term safe space, because I think that that's been used in weird ways a lot, but like it would not have physically been safe for me.

but also like emotionally, mentally, all the things like that wouldn't have been a possibility. I say this too, and I'll mention this as well. And this is what's disappointing for me with my dad specifically, is I acknowledge that there's like these generational differences. Like I look at my young nieces and nephews now and I'm like, they have a little bit different perspective than I do. That's what makes all this great, right? But there was something with my dad

Paul Cram (23:14.038)
my, his brother, my uncle was also gay and was out and he was, you know, he didn't hide that.

To me, it's challenging as my dad's son to look at him and say, you had this in your life. You saw how hard it was for your brother to just exist. You now have a son who's gay, and you haven't done anything. You haven't taken any steps to have you talk. You haven't talked to your brother. What is this experience like? I have a son who's gay.

There just, there was a lot, there was, with my dad and it's a missed opportunity with me. Like it's a missed opportunity, it's like you have a brother you can chat with, you have, there's so many resources out there these days now, you know, like.

I reached a point in my life with my dad where I just was very frustrated and it was hard. it came many, you know, a few decades after adolescence where he and I, finally was just like, dad, can't do whatever this is our relationship is. And we, actually was like, we got to go chat with somebody. And we did, we talked, there was a third party and he and I kind of talked and had it out.

It was actually one of the first times in my life that I felt loved by my dad, because he showed up. And I was like, this was a really good thing for our relationship. Even in that space and in that time, I didn't really bring up too much about my being gay. One of the last things, because my father has passed away. I don't know if I've mentioned that yet in the podcast for listeners, but my father passed away two years ago, which is also why I'm thinking of some of these things.

James Moffitt (24:55.083)
No.

Paul Cram (25:03.32)
they're on my mind and stuff lately, these past couple of years. one of the last things that my dad, just when we talked about my being gay, which was barely ever, we sat down, we were at a Taco Bell and he brought it up and he just looked at me and he's like, you know, he's like, you love Jesus and that's all we need to talk, that's it. And he like, then he changed the subject and he started talking about fishing. And.

Looking back on that, like I think about that now and how I've grown and who I am. Now I would actually be like, hold up dad, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's not all that matters. There's so much more in this life and in our relationship that matters. I think something that I probably would have told my dad is it's unfortunate that you and I didn't get to a better space.

in context of my being gay because there's an entire life that I've been living with beautiful, wonderful people in it. And I think you would have enjoyed that. And I think that that would have been something that my dad was a bit of a rebel. He liked people that were colorful and interesting and cool. Like, I find it unfortunate that, specific to my dad and specific to my family, that he did not have what you have, James.

He did not have, there wasn't this openness towards, it was much more black and white. It was like, there is this and then there's this. There was no room for gray. There was no room for a sort of a different way to approach it. So I appreciate hearing that from you and I appreciate that that exists. my, yeah, course, question, what is it?

James Moffitt (26:34.528)
Right. Right.

James Moffitt (26:48.822)
Well, I have a crazy, I have a crazy question. Well, here's a crazy, crazy Christian question. No, I'm kidding. Crazy Christians. Anyway, I don't want to assume that everybody in the listening audience, nor myself for that matter, understand, what it means to be gay or the gay lifestyle, or can you kind of give us a baseline or just, just.

You know, there's a lot of ignorance out there. I have as much ignorance as the next person. know, like I've said, I'm not homophobic, right? I'm very respectful of people's personal choices, right? And I know there's some debate in the Christian community about, you born gay or you just turn gay? You know, and I really don't want to really delve too deeply into

Paul Cram (27:24.514)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Cram (27:43.79)
Sure. Sure.

James Moffitt (27:44.672)
Those extremes are those thought patterns, right? But I, but as a gay man, want to give you the opportunity to tell the listening audience. What, what does that mean?

Paul Cram (27:56.726)
I can probably not give too much into that debate other than my experience. And I can say from a...

James Moffitt (28:03.082)
Right. just want, I just want you to define what, what it means to you.

Paul Cram (28:08.75)
Yeah, yeah.

James Moffitt (28:10.22)
being a gay man.

Paul Cram (28:12.216)
To me, being a gay man means that I am attracted to and have love and affection for... Currently I'm not in a relationship, but when I am, that I can love that person. And I will add into kind of what you're saying there too. I've always been gay, even from a young age. I knew something was different.

It wasn't until puberty that I was like, ding, this is gay. it just was like, this is making so much more sense to me on life. And yeah, I have, to me, being gay means that I have same sex attraction for a partner.

James Moffitt (28:44.268)
Okay. Right.

James Moffitt (28:57.42)
Okay. Fair enough.

Paul Cram (29:00.748)
Yeah. Yeah. And I would also add in too, like that's, I think that's a fairly basic for being gay. You had mentioned some things that I think that they are gay and they're not. Like some of those things like cross-dressing and things like that. I don't know that that all falls under that same umbrella, but you know what I mean? That's really starting to, I believe split hairs and things like that.

James Moffitt (29:01.664)
I just felt like that needed to be some.

Paul Cram (29:29.954)
But yeah, I have a lot of friends that are married now and I will say this, I think that I look at their lives and I'm like, they have a house in the suburbs and a dog and like, they just seem kind of boring in a way too. I feel like there could, when I was growing up, there was this idea that being gay was like just over the top, like sex and

over, you know, and it's like, to me, that's not what this is at all. I...

Yeah, I had I I'm bummed that I wasn't accepted for who I was so much growing up because I made decisions and I kind of squelched things and I do feel like there's a normal progression in some of our lives of like, like my brothers and sisters, like they were having in adolescence, like had girlfriends and boyfriends and they dated and like, kind of figured some of that stuff out and I didn't do any of that. And like there's a like a some of that just would have been great to do.

at that point in time. So I don't know if that answers your question totally of what you're getting at, but yeah. Yeah. And

James Moffitt (30:40.768)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Cram (30:47.872)
I can understand from where I'm at now, especially like in relation to my father, like my dad, he grew up in a time when it was very different than it is now. You didn't, it wasn't even the 90s, don't ask, don't tell. This was in the 60s when, mean, even for my uncle who was gay, like I look at that and how horrible he was treated, horrible that he was treated. Like, so,

There is more acceptance and I am pleased to see too. I see some spaces within Christianity and within churches that are being more understanding and more open too. So I find that to be heartening for myself as a gay man.

James Moffitt (31:34.924)
I remember I was, I graduated high school in May of 1980. So I was a child of the seventies, sixties and seventies. And I remember that, at some point, one of my, at that time we called them uncles and I'm not a genealogy expert, but come to find out they weren't my uncles or my cousins. So one of my cousins, it came out. It's somehow some way.

Paul Cram (31:41.806)
I love it.

James Moffitt (32:04.5)
we heard as children, my parents heard that, that

Uncle Larry or uncle. No, was Doug. No, it wasn't Doug. Larry. I don't know. One of them will say Larry. No, no, it wasn't Larry. What was his name? my God. I can't even remember. Anyway, one of my quote unquote uncles, who was really a cousin was gay and, it was, it was just, it was just kind of, it was kind of a thing of embarrassment and,

Paul Cram (32:15.244)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (32:37.652)
My grandmother was alive. She was the one that held a, she was the glue that kind of held the family together. And she's the reason why, you know, we all had family Christmases, you know, celebrations and it just wasn't talked about. Nobody, it never came up in open conversation. It was just kind of swept under the rug. And, and I remember that there was a sense of embarrassment or, or, disappointment or whatever you want to say. It just, it was not considered normal. Right.

Paul Cram (32:55.106)
Yeah, yeah.

James Moffitt (33:06.994)
And, that's, that's the only time in my life as a child that I remember that that even came up, you know, other, other than that, nobody, nobody, you know, there was no LGBTQ, a plus binary, blah, blah, blah. There was none of that. And I guess it was, like you said, in the nineties, maybe, eighties, late eighties, early nineties, nineties, whatever, where, it came, it came out into the open and it was more.

And another thing that wasn't talked about was divorce. People didn't like to talk about divorce. I mean, there were a lot of things in the closet back then that stayed in the closet. my, and my parents told me and my sister were adopted. My parents told me and my sister, they said, what happens in this house stays in this house. You don't repeat it to anybody anywhere outside of that front door. Right. And so there was a very, there was a very protective,

Paul Cram (33:44.782)
Yes.

James Moffitt (34:04.086)
sort of environment where you just, you know, divorce happened. You knew people got divorced, but it just wasn't spoken about. It wasn't, it wasn't allowed, it wasn't allowed out into the open to be dissected, discussed, opinions made, blah, blah, blah. Right.

Paul Cram (34:05.496)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Cram (34:27.34)
And there's, and I was raised in something similar to that, yeah, where it's like we keep our family issues within the family. We don't discuss them outside of that. yeah. Now I'm on a podcast talking about it. And I know myself too, and I know my, and again, here's some of that duality, like.

James Moffitt (34:40.79)
And now you're on a podcast.

Paul Cram (34:53.486)
I think I'm sure that I'm talking about some of this because of the fact that it was such a, you can't talk about this at all. And it's like, well, actually I'm sure there's some of that in there too for me where it's just like that. But well, and vice versa. mean, James, you too are talking about your family stuff in some ways. it's an interesting thing there.

I remember too, like just to kind of riff on what you said there quickly, like there was a moment I was down in Florida visiting my brother, him and his lovely wife. And it was, it was one of those family events where it was like, for whatever reason, we all kind of ended up on a family vacation, you know? So I was there, my brother and his wife and my two other sisters and their husbands were there. And there was just a moment where, for whatever reason, this conversation went to

they each talked about how they met and kind of shared that. And then they got to me and my brother just changed the subject. And it's that thing where it's, that has an impact on me. Like that has an impact as a gay man where it's just like, it's been really a struggle for me in life. I'm in my 40s now. And it's been a struggle for me to learn how to share my story and that it's valid. Like I appreciate that you're having me on. I appreciate that people are listening and

that this matters because again, to that sort of family thing that I grew up in where it was like, this is shameful for you to even exist. I'm here to say that I'm not. It's been a journey, but yeah, I feel like maybe society is reflecting some of that family stuff too where we are talking about some of these things that haven't been. yeah, for me,

I know that for myself, like I said, there's some disappointment in decisions I've made over time. And one of them would be like, yeah, I feel like had I allowed myself to have more experiences as an adolescent and as a young guy in my 20s, dating, doing all the things, whatever, it's a bummer to me that I didn't allow that. Cause there's a lot of mist of relationships. I feel like we learn a lot about ourselves.

Paul Cram (37:12.14)
I'm sure you, James, have learned a lot about yourself in the relationships you've had with your wife. You know what I'm saying? There's just things that, the expectation in my family was that, okay, well, you're gay. Well, you just won't ever act on that. We'll never speak about it. And you'll turn into like a monk or something. I don't know. Just an odd experience in that way.

James Moffitt (37:18.71)
Sure.

James Moffitt (37:35.902)
So I have a lot of questions on your pod match profile. And I, I think we would, we would get into a 90 minute conversation if, if I asked you all these questions. So I'm not going to ask those questions and I want to, I want to give you, like a five minute elevator speech where you can talk to my listening audience, specifically to parents and maybe even to

Paul Cram (37:47.446)
No worries.

James Moffitt (38:01.16)
adults that are male, female, whatever, and have identified as being gay. And I would like to give you an opportunity from your perspective to talk to parents on maybe a better way or the correct way or the healthy way. Like we're talking emotional intelligence, right? How to handle

Paul Cram (38:25.201)
We are, yeah.

James Moffitt (38:30.934)
those situations in how to, how to build, how to continue to build healthy relationships, because gay or not, they're still your children. Right. You know, who knows? Maybe your child might come up to you and go, Hey, I, identify as a, as a monkey. And now, so I want to swing from trees and eat bananas for the rest of my life. And there's a lot of strange things out there. Okay. And I'm not making fun of that. I'm just saying that. So anyway.

Paul Cram (38:42.412)
Right. Right.

Paul Cram (38:52.014)
you

Paul Cram (38:56.674)
There are.

James Moffitt (39:01.233)
that's a whole new podcast episode, right?

Paul Cram (39:01.87)
I would recommend that you get them into therapy ASAP. No, I appreciate that, James, and I've shared pretty much what I wanted to do, so I appreciate you having me on here. yeah, to that note, I did jot a couple of notes. I'm glancing at them here, because I was thinking the same thing. What is it that I want to say? I guess I'll just kind of repeat what I had kind of initially said, but it's as a parent, what kind of a relationship do you want with your kids?

with your adult children too. And I know that that takes some, that actually happens before they're adults. That happens before they're 18, you know, to my point about my dad. it took, asking me right off the bat, like, are you into girls? If you think that I'm not, maybe there's some emotional intelligence that you could use there. And like, wait a minute, how do I, how would I ask this question in a way? And how do I make, am I okay with the answer?

James Moffitt (39:57.034)
Well, there's, there's more to, there's more to a relationship, than sexual orientation, right? There's way more. We are, we are a three dimensional being and, and they're, you know, physical, emotional, psychological, physiological or mental health. There's a lot, we're very complicated. There's a lot to us, right. And, and to, for somebody to narrow down your identity.

Paul Cram (40:05.58)
Yes.

James Moffitt (40:25.27)
to literally your sexual preference is really kind of narrow minded and unfair to me.

Paul Cram (40:31.864)
Well, and it's a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And it's, it just, I have so many thoughts there, but they're not all coming out. no, it would be, I mean, I mean, I guess I feel like James, you did some of the things that I would have wished for from a parent. Like I would have, I would have appreciated it. Had my dad told me some of the things that you did to your son, which you said that you, told him that you loved him. You told him.

James Moffitt (40:43.116)
That's okay. That's all right.

Paul Cram (41:02.008)
that you're still his, you reassured him. But I would ask parents to kind of look to yourself. What is your part in this? And something that my father did not do and he didn't really utilize emotional intelligence in how he was operating. Some of that speaks to my dad's own homophobia, but also some of it speaks to what we've talked about, which is.

James Moffitt (41:04.886)
Sure. Sure.

Paul Cram (41:29.878)
not using emotional intelligence and not maybe being aware of some of that. Some of that was, we've learned a lot in the last even just 10 years about some of these things, about emotional intelligence and all those things. Yeah, and I know there is no perfect when it comes to parenting. And it's okay for parents that if you find out that your child is gay or queer or lesbian,

I want to say too, it's okay to like grieve. There are things that come with that. Some of that, it changes and adjusts their life and yeah, disappointment and yours. like, yeah. I would say be willing to listen, yeah.

James Moffitt (42:07.724)
disappointment. Right.

James Moffitt (42:15.988)
I I think, I think parents, I think all parents love their children. And I believe that they want the best for them and they want them to not have to suffer the consequences of bad decisions that we as parents made when we were younger. Right? I thought my parents were blithering idiots. thought they were out of touch, out of contact. You have no clue what you're talking about. Cause this is the real world out here. And it took me until I was in my, you know, late twenties.

Paul Cram (42:30.83)
Right.

Paul Cram (42:43.928)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (42:43.968)
early thirties, when I called my parents up from a payphone in Houston, Texas and said, wow, you're not as much, you're not an idiot. Like I thought you were, you're not out of touch. And some of the stuff you were saying is right on it's, was right on. And, and had I listened to some of the wisdom that they tried to impart to me, I wouldn't have made some of the bad decisions I made or not have, have to, or had to live through the consequences of those bad decisions. Right.

Paul Cram (43:12.738)
Yeah, yeah.

James Moffitt (43:13.233)
And so I'm chasing a rabbit there and I didn't mean to do that, but...

Paul Cram (43:16.822)
No, I get what you're saying there. And I would say to parents, I have been told this too, not by my parent in particular, but I have been told like, my child is gay and life is going to be harder for them. And I understand what parents are saying when they say that. And I would encourage parents to, again, look to yourself and look to then how can I make life better, one, for them, but also just for other people that are gay and queer.

Like if life is indeed going to be harder for your child if they are gay, are there things that you can do? What can you do? What's in your control? And if there's, cause it is pointing to some bigger like inequalities, you know, like it isn't, it's only recently actually in my lifetime that I could even be get married. So like things like that, I guess I would encourage people to examine your beliefs and examine like what is it that you have learned?

You know, I got some really wacky messaging, James, when I was growing up about what it means to be gay and queer. like, and I'm discovering that I'm like, this was not based on science at all. This was like based on something my dad heard from like his friend, you know, just wacky, weird stuff. So.

James Moffitt (44:31.062)
Sure. I remember what I was, where I was going to point out was trying to make, finally brain synapses finally came together from the thought process happened. And so what I was trying to say is, is that parents have a perception or they have a projected image of who they want their child to be. Like, like my dad was a TV man and he wanted to pass down that, that business to me when I became 18. I, I could care less. I could, could have cared less about.

Paul Cram (44:39.532)
Ha ha.

Paul Cram (45:00.291)
Yup.

James Moffitt (45:00.608)
vacuum tubes and all the testing equipment and no zero interest in that. And I know that hurt his feelings. And I know that I know parents that are listening to this podcast episode, they're doctors or attorneys or plumbers or electricians, whatever trade you want to think of, whatever profession you want to think of, law judges, astronauts, whatever, right? There's a whole panoramic view of, of who people are in their professional lives.

Paul Cram (45:03.182)
Ha

James Moffitt (45:29.728)
And I know that, that, us, we, as parents, we, not only do we parent our children the way our parents parented us, hopefully not. but, but we, have this perception or image that we have of our child of who we want them to become. Right. And that's why, that's why kids, young adults are, are pressured, into following a path of going to a four year college. Right.

Paul Cram (45:56.718)
R.I.P. R.I.P. R.I.P.

James Moffitt (45:57.138)
it in back in the seventies, if you had a, if you had a four year degree in underwater basket weaving, you automatically got a job making 30,000 a year with the corner office. Right. Well, that's, that's not the way it works today. And, and I'll go as far as to say that most four year degrees are pretty worthless. There w there's there not even worth the ink that's on that paper. Cause if you got a four year degree and just name something, some kind of psychology or whatever,

Paul Cram (46:24.296)
In yeah, in we, yeah, yeah.

James Moffitt (46:26.014)
You can't use it for anything other than to say, yeah, I went to a four year college and I passed and I graduated as a, as a, as a college graduate.

Paul Cram (46:33.03)
Or you're making entry level, like you're making, you're not making, it doesn't make a lot of monetary sense these days, yeah. No, you're tapping into something. I would ask though this back, James, and this is the part where I think it's hard for parents. There's a balance between, I do believe like as a parent, I'm not a parent, but I have nieces and nephews and I'm familiar with the concept. There's that balance of like, I really can encourage and inspire my children to

to be amazing and to do great things in their career, in their lives. How do you balance those two things of like encouraging and kind of giving direction while also allowing them to make their own decisions and failures? Like I believe these two things can exist together and, but how do you do it? Like how do you not take over?

James Moffitt (47:19.83)
Sure.

I one of the ways that we as parents have failed, I don't want to use the word failed, I think one of the things that children, especially young adults, they want to feel validated. They want to feel seen, they want to feel heard. And our young adults, they have a dream of their own. They have a dream of being whatever.

Paul Cram (47:41.699)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (47:52.16)
They, as they've grown up, as they've gone through the years and progressed in maturity and progressed in talents and other things. I think that, that we as parents miss out on the opportunity to allow our adult children to identify with who they are. Who are you straight, gay, bisexual, whatever. Right.

Paul Cram (48:15.768)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Cram (48:20.003)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (48:20.51)
that's then again, that's only the sexual orientation part of that, intellectually, mentally, psychologically, where are you going in life? Where do you want to go in life? Do you want to be an astronaut? Do you want to be an electrician? Do you want to be a philosopher? Do you want to be a professor at college? What, what are your passions? What are you passionate about? Right. And I think we miss that opportunity because we're so narrowly.

Paul Cram (48:24.323)
Right.

Yes.

Paul Cram (48:31.854)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Cram (48:42.83)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (48:47.296)
We're so zeroed in on our image of who we want them to be. Right. And a lot of times we want them to be like us. Like my dad wanted me to be the TV man in Quinlan, Texas. That was so far away from reality that I can't even begin to tell you, you know, and he and I never had that conversation other than I did tell him one day is like, did. I dad, I am not interested in all of that. And I know it today. I know more now how that disappointed him. You know, that, that that happened.

Paul Cram (48:55.822)
Yeah, yeah.

Ha

James Moffitt (49:16.544)
You know, and I, I remember telling my mom and dad at one point, I was an athletic trainer in high school for the basketball and the football team. And I loved it. I went to Southern Methodist university for classes during the summer. And I told my dad, I wanted to be, I wanted to be a athletic trainer for the Dallas Cowboys. I was a teenager when I told him that, and you know what they said? That'll never happen. You just, you just forget that dream. That ain't happening. And well, one of the reasons it wasn't happening because they didn't have the money for it. You know,

Paul Cram (49:38.793)
James Moffitt (49:45.548)
They didn't have the money for me to go get the college and the training, the medical training that I needed, uh, to, do that. And, and, okay. So a lot of that was reality based, right? They didn't really go into the details of explaining that. kind of learned that over the years, like, Oh, I want to be a Dell. So I want to be a neurosurgeon or a brain surgeon. It's like, well, that requires eight to 16 years of, of intense training and lots and lots of money. Right.

And so that means lots and lots of student loans or winning the lottery, or if your parent, if you're lucky and your parents are flush and they can pay for it, then that's great. But yeah, but the reality of it is for a lot of kids, great. You want to be a, if you want to be a neurosurgeon, then you know, you need to plan this out and we'll help you as best we can. But my dad did, they didn't even say that they were like, forget it. It'll never happen. And I was like, I was crushed. I was like, what, what do you mean?

Paul Cram (50:21.88)
Then that's great, yeah.

Paul Cram (50:31.831)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (50:42.956)
That's what I want to do. And I think that's where we as parents kind of narrow-minded and we don't allow our adult children to have their own dreams and aspirations and visions of what they want for their lives.

Paul Cram (51:00.27)
I feel like that word that you just said there really resonates for me. And it's that word allow, where it's also, it's allowing and it's, I'm thinking, James, like it sounds like your parents did a pretty decent job on teaching you like, here's how you do logical thinking. You know what I'm saying? And I'm even thinking for myself, like allowing, my parents were actually really good about like when it came to

career-wise, like I remember telling my mom, I think my mom and parents would have been thrilled had I come to them and said I want to be an athletic trainer. I came to them and said, I want to be an actor. And my mom, she just looked at me and she's like, well, how are going to do it? And I liked that. Like, I liked that. It was like, okay, well, then what are the steps? And it pushed me to kind of like think through how that works.

James Moffitt (51:57.546)
Right. Right.

Paul Cram (52:00.046)
I wish that for that allowing, I wish that would have happened in a broader spectrum for my own life for obvious reasons for our conversation here. But I really like that word allow. I think that's really insightful.

James Moffitt (52:07.436)
Sure. Sure.

James Moffitt (52:13.836)
Good. Well, I told you earlier, I wanted to keep this to 30 minutes and now we're at 52 minutes. And, I think, I think this was a great conversation and I want to, uh, in the future, I want to, uh, allow you to come back and talk about, maybe we can go through some of these questions on your, your pod match profile if you want, and, uh, dig a little deeper into some of that. So I appreciate you being on, being on the podcast.

Paul Cram (52:17.9)
Yeah, we are.

Paul Cram (52:28.686)
Hahaha!

Yeah, happy to. Yeah, that's

This is, I, thank you, I appreciate you having me on and for the space to talk about what we talked about, James, it's been great.

James Moffitt (52:48.716)
All right. So the listening audience, I apologize that this ran over 30 minutes. I'm trying to, uh, narrow this down a little bit better. know a lot of my podcasts are 60 minutes. And so I'm trying to get it down to 20 to 30 minutes. We just had a lot to talk about today and I wanted to give Paul the space to, uh, to talk about the things that he's talked about and to give my son, Jeremy, uh, a shout out. I want to believe that he's, uh, able to hear maybe.

What's what we're talking about and hopefully, uh, it's kind of weird, but you know, I believe in the afterlife. I believe that, you know, that, uh, uh, once our bodies, uh, once our journey on this earth, on this mortal rock, we're on ends. I want to believe that there's more to, I want to believe that that's not the end. want to believe that there's more to life in the thereafter. Right. Anyway. Uh, so the listening audience, I want to say thank you for hanging in here.

this long if you're still listening. Thank you. Thank you for the privilege of your time. Paul, thank you for being on the podcast episode. You can listen to this podcast episode on Captivate FM, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, and Public Radio. That's the audio version. I also have a, I upload the video version to rumble.com if you want to watch the video. We have a website.

It's called parentingadultchildren.org parentingadultchildren.org. And if you go to that URL or the, to that domain, it'll take you to our website, which provides my contact information, email address. you can send me a voicemail, you can send me an email. And like I did on my last episode, I'm going to double dog dare you to do that because nobody's done it yet. I want to get, I want to get into my email one morning and somebody has sent me an email from, from my contact information on my website that I pay for.

So I double-dog dare somebody to do it. If you write me an email, send me a voice mail, I'll respond. I promise I will. On the website, you get upcoming show schedules. Right now I have April and May's schedule. This is May. So as soon as we get closer to June, I'll put the June and July schedule out there so you'll see what's coming. If you go to the review,

James Moffitt (55:14.166)
section of the website, you can leave reviews about these podcast episodes. you're on Apple podcast listening to the episode, you can actually leave a review right there on your smartphone. Please do. I also have a blog and I post all kinds of information about the podcast episodes, all the topics that we talk about. There's like 30 or 40 topics that are recurring in all of my episodes. I highlight all of my podcast guests.

You know, I'll put a little blurb on there with their picture, their bio, what have you about, you know, what upcoming podcast episode, is going to be about, you know, so you'll get that. I also upload magic clips or short video clips to my Facebook's family support group to Instagram, both my, my, two, I have two podcasts and both of them have their own individual Instagram channel. So I put my magic clips on those as well for, so that people are following me on Instagram. Please do.

we'll get those things. Right. So I'm even on tick tock 64 years old almost, and I am on tech talk. Yes. Woo. I resisted tech talk for many years because I just don't like a lot of the garbage that I see on it, but I have content creators that are like, if you want, if you want your podcast to go somewhere, you need to start putting little video clips on, on tech talk so people can see them. It's all about engagement. I'm doing this for you.

Paul Cram (56:17.918)
Hahaha.

Yes.

James Moffitt (56:41.578)
Right? I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this for you. So hopefully all of this stuff I'm doing in the social media realm is going to get more and more eyes put on it so that more and more people can, get the information that we're putting out. Right. I release a podcast episode every Friday morning at 8. So I'm just going to say thank you for your time. Paul, Paul, do you have a website or,

Paul Cram (57:07.01)
I do, I'm not on TikTok actually, but I do have a website. I know, right? But it's just IamPaulKram.com. IamPaulKram.com. You can go there and like, can find, I'm on like, I think I'm on Instagram on there. You can find my social media on there, but I usually just say IamPaulKram.com. Check out if you wanna see anything that the movie stuff that I'm in, cool, no pressure, but yeah. I am an actor. Yeah.

James Moffitt (57:32.744)
yeah, you're an actor. forgot about that. That's crazy. You're my, I think you're the first actor that's been on my podcast.

Paul Cram (57:38.914)
I, well, hey, whoo, yeah. Yes, but I'm not on TikTok, but yeah, people can find me on impaulkram.com and yeah, they can send me notes and stuff too. I don't know, yeah, if anybody has any questions or if I have, I don't think we said anything horribly offensive at all. So I don't either, but hopefully not, yeah. But it's been really great, James.

James Moffitt (57:40.49)
Woohoo! Nice!

James Moffitt (57:57.238)
I don't think so. Hopefully not. I might've, I might've lost some listeners and if that happened and well, I'm not going to worry about it. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to say goodbye everybody and we'll talk to you later.

Paul Cram (58:07.224)
Hopefully you found some.