Episode 45 - When Christians say, "It's not the church, it's the individual".

What is the church? Is it a building, a denomination, or the people of God?

In this episode, we explore what the Bible actually teaches about the church and respond to the common claim: "It's not the church, it's the individual." Through Scripture and biblical examples, we discuss accountability, leadership, repentance, and why calling for reform is not attacking the church.

We also provide an update on our proposal to ban tou'a in church faikava and discuss the responsibility of church leaders to protect the vulnerable and uphold biblical standards.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Malalele, belovinaka talofalava, and hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pacific Impulmin Podcast with your host, Akanesika Fussi. I'm sorry that there has been a delay of the episode this week, but we are diving right in to the topic of today. Very important topic that we are discussing today. This week I've spent a lot of time reading comments from people across, you know, different denominations. For those of you who don't follow me on social media, I listed all the Tongen churches that are in FaiGava on my Facebook. And uh it causes uh a huge uproar in our Tonga's community, especially um so much attack from LDS, from the uh Church of the Latter-day Saints, and along with the Free Wrestling Church of Tonga, because so many of the members are drinking kava and also have do'a in their fai gava. And um, yeah, there was a huge backlash on social media, but I didn't back down. I just double up on my claim and I stand firm and I'm like, and I demand all the churches and I call all the Tonga churches to ban do'a in their church fai Gaba. And this week, our not-for-profit organization, Pacifica Empowerment, submitted a proposal to the church president and vice president of the Free Wesleyan Church calling for a ban of Do'a in church Fai Gava to protect women, children, and families. And we submitted that proposal on the 16th. So, um, and I have listed all the email addresses in the church that we've sent it to so they can check it. And just in perfect timing, because they are having their um church annual conference this month, and um, that is when all the church ministers from all over uh villages, you know, different countries and different cities are coming all together to Tonga for the annual conference, and that is where church ministers are meeting, and they usually have you know meeting in the conference to see how can the church um improve, you know, what are steps that we need to take to improve the church and to um help the church spiritually. And this is one of the proposals that we submitted to the church president to submit in the 2026 Annual Conference of the Free Wesleyan Church that this is one of the steps that the church must take to protect its members, especially women and children, from sexual abuse and sexual exploitation in FAIGA, as well as broken marriages in the family. So uh we are awaiting 30 days' response. So we pray and hope that the leaders take heed and listen to the voices of the vulnerable voices of the minority. This is the voice of the people that oppressed the weak that Jesus wants us to fight for, that Jesus wants us to care for. So these are the vulnerable people that the church should be looking after, should be listening to. So we are awaiting a response from the church within 30 days. Anyways, during the uproar on social media, and one thing I realized in the comments when I see so many people commented on my post, that there seems to be a lot of confusion about what the church actually is. You know, many of the comments I've seen, they say, don't blame the church. It's not the church, it's the individual. The church has nothing to do with it. You know, I've realized that many people uh seem to be talking about the church as though it is a building, like a institution. You know, it's almost as if people imagined the church as some of you know a separate entity floating above the congregation completely. And that was uh shocking to me to see so many people get confused on what church is and what is the church, and for them to think that it is some separate entity floating above the congregation completely disconnected from the actions of its members or you know, leaders and communities, but that is not how the Bible understands the church. When the Bible talks about the church, is it talking about a building? Is it talking about a denomination? Is it talking about a church constitution? Or is it talking about something else entirely? You know, because the reason why this matters is because how we define the church affects how we respond to problems within the church. For example, when concerns are raised about a practice that is happening within church activities, some people immediately respond by saying, that's not the church. You know, that's just a few individuals. You know, it's not the church's fault. But if those individuals are church members, if they are church leaders, if they are church ministers, if they are church committees, and if they are church congregations, then we need to ask a very important question here. At what point do the actions of church members become a concern for the church? Because according to scripture, the church is not primarily a building. You know, the church is not an organization, it is not a denomination. The church is the people, the church is the body of Christ. We. We are the body of Christ, Christians. The church is made up of ordinary believers, leaders, ministers, elders, families who have been called together under Christ. And if that is true, then perhaps we need to rethink the way we talk about responsibility, the way we talk about accountability, repentance, and reform within our churches. And that is what I want to talk about today. I want us today to put aside our traditions, you know, our emotions, undying loyalty for our denomination, you know, and I want us to simply ask, what does the Bible actually teach us about the church? What did the early Christians believe the church was? And how should that understanding shape the way we respond when concerns are raised within our churches and our denominations? And how should that understanding shape the way we respond when concerns are raised within our communities and our denominations today? Let's begin with one of the biggest misconceptions that we hear a lot today. The church is not a building. Now I know that sounds obvious, but think about how often we use the word church. You know, we point to a building and say, That's my church, but if the building burnt down tomorrow, would the church cease to exist? Of course not. The people will still gather and they will continue to worship somewhere else. The church would still exist without the building. The word translated as church in the New Testament comes from the Greek word ecclesia. Ecclesia means an assembly, gathering, or congregation of people. It never referred to a physical building. In fact, for the first few centuries after Christ, Christians didn't even have a church building. They met in homes, they met in gaves, they met outdoors, they met in secret during the time of persecution. And the church existed long before church buildings existed. This is why Jesus said, For where two or three gather in my name, there I am with them. The church is not bricks and mortar, the church is people, the church is the body of Christ. The Apostle Paul gives us one of the clearest pictures of the church. You know, he says, Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. Notice something important here. Paul doesn't say that the church building is the body of Christ. He doesn't say the denomination is the body of Christ. He says, You are the body of Christ. The church is made up of individual believers joined together under Christ. Think about your own body. Your hand cannot say what I do has nothing to do with the body. Your eye cannot say my actions don't affect the rest of my body. Everything is connected in our body. If one part suffers, the whole body suffers. If one part is healthy, the whole body benefits. And Paul writes, if one member suffers, we all suffer together. This means that the actions of church members affect the church. The actions of church leaders affect the church. The actions of congregations affect the church because they are the church. The early church understood corporate responsibility. You know, one of the biggest differences between modern Christianity and biblical Christianity is the understanding of responsibility. Modern culture teaches individualism, you know, biblical culture taught corporate responsibility. When Israel sinned, the nation suffered. One of the powerful examples in the Bible is found in the story of Achan in Joshua chapter 7. You know, one man disobeyed God, you know, he sinned, yet the entire Israel nation experienced the consequences. In Joshua 7, verse 7, it says that, but the Israelites were unfaithful in regard to the devoted things. Achan, son of Carmi, the son of Simri, the son of Sarah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them, so the Lord's anger burned against Israel. As you can see here, God did not say this is only Achan's problem. No, the entire community was affected. And why is that? Because God's people were viewed as a covenant community. The same principle appears throughout the New Testament church. Christians were not isolated individuals. They were members of one body, one family. They were members of one household of faith. As I see in the comments, many people say, you know, those leaders don't represent the church. But the Bible teaches the opposite. Leaders absolutely represent the church. This is why scripture holds leaders to higher standards. In James 3.1, it says, not many of you should become teachers. Because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. Why? Why stricter judgment for church leaders? Because they influence others. Their actions shape the reputation of Christ among believers and unbelievers. When a church leader demonstrates humility, the church benefits. When a church leader demonstrates integrity, the church benefits. When a church leader abuses authority, ignores sin, or harms others, the church is affected. Not because every member participated, but because leaders represent the community they serve. And that is why I'm calling on the church to hold its leaders to a higher standard by adding policies to its constitutions that prohibit church ministers from drinking alcohol or kava, as well as banning doa from church fai gava. Because the reason many church members today are so confused about this fai gava and doa issue is that church leaders themselves are allowing it within the church. And in many cases, church leaders are the very ones leading these sinful gaba and doa practices. So the rest of her followers think, oh, if he does it, it's okay. You know, we can go along with it. And that's how dangerous it is when church leaders are not serving God faithfully. The church is called to correct sin. Another misconception is that Christians should never challenge wrongdoing within the church. I get this a lot in the comments, you know? Who are you to speak against the church? Who are you to speak against our program? Who are you to speak against our denomination? But that's what the Bible teaches. Jesus gave clear instructions in Matthew 18 for addressing sin among believers. Verse 6 it says, if anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it will be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble. Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come. Paul also publicly rebuked Peter when Peter's behavior contradicted the cospel. In Colossians 2, Peter had been freely eating with the Gentile believers, you know? But when certain Jewish believers arrived, he withdrew and separated himself because he feared criticism from them. Paul saw this as hypocrisy because it contradicted the truth of the gospel that Jews and Gentiles are equal in Christ. Notice that Paul didn't say Peter is a leader, so we shouldn't question him, you know, like how so many people are saying today about our church leaders. But instead, Paul confronted him, you know, because the truth of the gospel was at stake. Leadership in the church has never meant being above accountability. The apostle Paul instructed the churches to discipline members involved in serious unrepentant sin, because the church is called to holiness. In 1 Peter 1 15 to 16 it says, But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, for it is written, be holy, because I am holy. The church is not called to protect reputations. The church is not called to preserve traditions at all cost. The church is called to honor Christ. When churches refuse to address wrongdoing, they fail in their responsibility. Silence in the face of evil and injustice is not neutrality. It is often participation. And of course, denominations are not the church. This may surprise some people, but the Bible never speaks about denominations. You know? There were no Methodists or Baptists or Catholics. There were no Pentecostals or LDS. There were no Free Wesleans, no Church of Tonga. The Bible speaks about one church, and that is the body of Christ. Denominations, you know, all these religions, they are all human organizations created over centuries. Some may teach biblical truth, you know, some may drift away from biblical teaching, but none of them are the church. You know, the church belongs to Christ, not to a denomination, not to a president or to a bishop, not to a pastor or a committee. Christ alone is the head of the church. You know, in Ephesians 1 22 to 23, it says, and God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. At this point many of you may ask, so if that's the case, then if the church is not the denomination, then why are you calling on denominations to address issues like Faigava and Doa? I mean that's a fair question. But the answer is simple. The church and the denomination are not the same thing, but denominations are still responsible for governing the activities that happen under their authority. Think of it this way. A family is not the same thing as a house, but the house still provides the rules and environment that shape the family living inside it. Likewise, a denomination is not the church itself, but it is the structure that governs church members, church leaders, church policies, church buildings, church programs and church activities. In the Bible, you know, churches had leadership structures. The apostles appointed elders. Churches had responsibilities. Churches made decisions. Churches corrected false teaching. Churches disciplined leaders. They protected doctrine. Leadership was never optional. The issue is not whether authority exists. The issue is whether authority is being exercised faithfully. That is the issue. And when church leaders organize church fai gava, approve doa in church faigava for fundraising activities and other reasons, when they allow church facilities to be used or permit practices to continue under the church's name, they are making leadership decisions. And those decisions can be changed. That is why people petition governments to change laws. That is why church members bring concerns to church leaders. That is why prophets confronted kings. That is why Jesus and the apostles confronted church leaders. Because leadership has the power to make changes. Let's use another example. Imagine a church discovers that children are being placed in unsafe situations during church activities. Would anyone say, well, the church isn't the denomination, so there's nothing leaders can do? Of course not. Everyone would expect the church leaders to act immediately to protect the children. Everyone would expect policies to be reviewed, everyone would expect safeguards to be introduced. Everyone would expect leaders to protect vulnerable people. And why is that? Because leadership carries responsibility. The same principle applies to any issue that affects the well-being of people within church activities. If church leaders have the authority to organize activities, they also have the authority to reform those activities. This is why we can simultaneously say two things. First, the church is the people of God. And second, church leaders and denominations have a responsibility to govern wisely and protect those under their care. These ideas are not contradictory. In fact, they go together. Because leaders are part of the church. Denominations are made up of people. Church presidents are people. Ministers are people, elders are people, doa are people, five government are people, wives of these five government are people, committees are people. All of them are members of the church and all of them are accountable to God. The goal is not to attack the church. The goal is not to destroy denominations, you know, the goal is not to shame Christians. The goal is to encourage the church to live according to the standards that Christ has already given us. Throughout scripture, God's people were repeatedly called to examine themselves, repent where necessary, and reform practices that were harmful or ungodly. Calling for reform is not attacking the church. No. Calling for reform is often one of the ways God strengthens his church. The question is not whether change is possible, the question is whether we are willing to listen when concerns are raised and whether we have the courage to act when change is needed. You know, I often see in the comments people saying, Why are you speaking against the church? You know, who are you to come and speak against the church leaders? Why are you criticizing church leaders? Why don't you just stay quiet? But when we look at the scripture, you know, the word of God, we see that some of God's most faithful servants were the very people who confronted sin among God's people. They weren't trying to destroy God's people, they were trying to help God's people return to God, and that is what I'm trying to do. Let's look at some of the examples in the Bible. Let's look at Moses. You know, after God miraculously delivered Israel from Egypt, the people witnessed incredible miracles. You know, they saw the Red Sea pod, they saw God provide food from heaven, you know, the manna, they saw God's power with their own eyes, you know, the fire. Yet while Moses was receiving God's commandments on Mount Sinai, the people created a golden calf and began worshiping it. I mean, can you imagine? God had just rescued them using miracles and mighty power, yet they quickly turn back to idolatry when they get the chance. And uh what did Moses do? Did he say, let's not talk about it? You know? Did he say we don't want to divide the people? We should stay hush hush. We don't want to offend anyone. No. Moses confronted the sin directly. He called the people to repentance because he loved them and wanted them to remain faithful to God. He was angry. He was angry because he was faithful to God. And sometimes love requires correction. Sometimes silence is not love at all. Let's look at another example of Nathan when he confronted King David. King David was God's chosen king, a man after God's own heart. And yet, David committed adultery with Bathsheba and arranged for her husband Uriah to be killed. David was the king. He was the most powerful man in Israel. Most people would have been too afraid to challenge him. You know, who challenged the king? But God sent the prophet Nathan. You know, Nathan could have been scared. You know, he could have been said, Oh God, I'm too scared. He's he's very powerful. He's the king. Who am I to go? No, but Nathan obeyed. He obeyed God. He won. Even though he knew the risk of speaking against a mighty king, a chosen one. And imagine how risky that was when he confronted King David for his sin. You see, Nathan wasn't attacking Israel. You know, he wasn't trying to overthrow the kingdom. Nathan was calling God's leader to repentance. And because David listened, he repented. One of the greatest kings in Israel was corrected because someone had the courage to speak the truth. What about Elijah when he confronted King Ahab? Now King Ahab and Queen Jezebel led Israel into widespread idolatry. You know, many people stayed silent, many people compromised, they agree with it, they went with it. Many people went along, you know, with the culture. But Elijah, he stood alone. He confronted the king. He confronted the false prophets. He confronted the spiritual corruption of the nation. Was Elijah against Israel? No. Elijah loved Israel. That is precisely why he spoke. Real love doesn't remain silent while people walk toward destruction. John the Baptist, when he confronted Herod, you know, he was one of the boldest prophets in scripture. He publicly confronted King Herod for taking his brother's wife. John knew it could have cost him everything, and eventually it did. You know, he was imprisoned and he was later executed. Yet John chose faithfulness over popularity, truth over comfort, obedience over silence. He understood that God's standards do not change simply because powerful people are involved. No. The most powerful example in the Bible, you know, is Jesus. When he confronted those church leaders. You know, many people imagine Jesus as someone who never challenged anyone. Oh, but he did. I saw one of the comments on the social media, someone said, you know, that Jesus didn't call anyone names, but he did. He called the Pharisees hypocrites, you know, whitewashed tombs, pruned of vibers. You know, when he when Jesus entered the temple, he found people exploiting. They were trading, you know, in his temple, turning God's house into a marketplace. And he overturned those tables. He used the whip to drive people away, drive people out, you know, who are corrupting the temple of God. He declared, My house shall be called a house of prayer. And notice something important here. Jesus did not abandon the temple. He did not hate God's people. He confronted wrongdoing because he loved God's people. And what some Tongan churches are allowing through Faigava and Do'a in church halls and church cover sessions, you know, is deeply troubling. God's house is meant to be a house of prayer. Yet there are reports of lustful behavior toward Do'a, inappropriate comments, sexual harassment, and abuse occurring within the church settings. If these things are happening in the church, then the church leaders have a responsibility to act and protect women, children, and families. So as we look at all of these examples, what do they teach us? Not every one of these examples teaches the same lesson. Calling God's people to repentance is not hatred. Calling leaders to accountability is not rebellion. Calling institutions to reform is not attacking the church. In fact, throughout Scripture, God repeatedly raised up faithful men and women who challenged harmful practices, confronted sin, and called people to righteousness. And many people are telling me to be quiet, that it's none of my business. Well, the Doa victims of sexual abuse in Fai Gava came to me directly with their stories, their suffering and their trauma that they have carried for years because no one cared enough to listen to them. The wives of these five government also came to me with their pain and heartbreak after decades of dealing with their husbands' cover addictions and affairs with Doa. So, do you expect me to stay quiet and allow these women and victims to continue suffering? I don't think so. I believe God brought them to me for a reason. And that is why I'm speaking up and fighting this issue. That is why I'm calling for change and challenging those who enable these behaviors to continue, including within Church Vikover. Someone has to stand up for the vulnerable when others choose to remain silent. So the question today is not why am I speaking up? The real question today is, are we willing to listen? Because every prophet was criticized, every reformer was opposed, every person who challenged the status quo faced resistance. Yet history often shows that the people who were initially criticized were sometimes the very people God was used to bring needed change to the community, to the society, and to the nation. You know, if we say we truly love Christ and his church, and if we truly love people enough to correct this and save them from eternal damnation, then we should never be afraid to examine our traditions, our practices, and even ourselves in the light of God's word. Because our ultimate loyalty is not to a tradition, it is not to a denomination, it is not to a leader. Our ultimate loyalty is to Jesus Christ. To end this episode, I want to leave you with this question. If someone looked at your church today, what would they learn about Jesus? Would they see courage or compromise? Would they see truth or silence? Would they see holiness or hypocrisy? Would they see people willing to protect the vulnerable, confront sin, and uphold righteousness? Because at the end of the day, the church is not the building, the church is not the denomination, the church is not the constitution, the church is the people of God. And every one of us has a responsibility to represent Christ faithfully in this world. Thank you for listening today. I hope you learned something and share it with someone who needs to listen to this and have a blessed week.