For the Love of Facts
For the Love of Facts is a podcast where two therapists, Dr. Zamzam Dini and Dr. Kadija Mussa, unpack the truths behind love, relationships, and healing. In a world full of noise and myths, we bring culturally grounded, evidence-based conversations that center faith, connection, and care. No fluff—just facts.
For the Love of Facts
When "I'm Fine" Means Everything But That
We explore the misconception that couples struggle with communication when they're actually struggling with conflict resolution. Silence communicates as powerfully as words, and many people repeat the same ineffective strategies while expecting different results.
• Early experiences with conflict in our families shape our approach to disagreements in adult relationships
• Many couples never witnessed healthy conflict resolution growing up
• Gottman's Four Horsemen (criticism, defensiveness, contempt, stonewalling) predict relationship breakdown
• Using "gentle startups" with "I" statements creates safer communication
• Remember it's not you versus your partner—it's both of you versus the problem
• Emotional intelligence helps recognize when you need a timeout during heated discussions
• Pre-plan how you'll handle conflicts, including signals for breaks and commitments to return
• Timing matters—don't bring up sensitive topics at inappropriate moments
• Intentionally reconnect after conflicts through physical touch and verbal reassurance
• Consider "parking" some issues temporarily when you're not making progress
Take time to resolve your conflicts, start conversations gently, and remember that empathy is the glue that holds relationships together.
Follow us on instagram @fortheloveoffacts!
Well, welcome to another episode. Today we wanted to talk about one of the most common concerns, that situations where like things need to be handled very intentionally and explicitly. Khadija, what are your thoughts? What are some things that you've noticed in couples that you've worked with?
Speaker 2:The therapy, thinking they don't know how to communicate right. And I always think to myself people communicate even if they don't know how to communicate right. And I always think to myself people communicate even if they don't speak even when they don't speak especially when they don't speak they say so much right, you remember that saying that they told us in graduate school was like one can not not communicate.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, like even if you don't say anything, you're saying something very loudly.
Speaker 2:Silence is the loudest way of communicating, right, um? So, yeah, many times couples will come in. Oh, we don't know how to communicate, but really it's more of like we don't know how to solve our problems. And we attempt to solve our problems right. And then we think about in family systems theory, like how you do more of the same, you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and where you just double down um to try to solve this problem, but really you're not doing anything differently, so it's not changing um.
Speaker 1:And then in your mind you're thinking we have talked about this in couples who come and I'm trying so hard, like we're putting all this effort in, when, honestly, you're just kind of repeating the same four strategies that you've used over the past decade yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're just doing the same things over and over again, or saying it in different ways, thinking you will have different results but, that doesn't really happen, and I think conflict resolutions or the skill it takes to actually resolve your problems and feel satisfied at the end of that um and I I don't think many people have that skill, and then it's so sad yeah, I feel like it's an assumption that everybody knows how to solve like conflict.
Speaker 1:I feel like we need to take a step back and really look at, well, how did you witness your family resolve conflicts growing up? What did your family of origin do, um, you know, like did? Did your parents kind of talk through disagreements in a healthy, like you know, consistent way in front of their children? Or did their parents always, you know, were super agreeable and never showed any differences of opinion ever in in front of the children, right? That? That tells me a lot when, like, children learn what they see and if they don't see it, they don't get the opportunity to learn I've heard the silliest things, like my parents are happy they've been married for like 40 years and they have never fought like what that's like.
Speaker 1:Um, I wouldn't call it a red flag, but it's definitely something I need to pay attention to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but now you have developed this unhealthy view of conflict. You think like oh, we're fighting. Oh, this is so bad. I am in a terrible relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really, you know, shifts your perception and your expectations. Right, because even, let's say, parents didn't argue or fright in front of the children. They still had those like moments of you know, like let's work through something behind closed doors, and so they didn't model or show their children that, you know, it's healthy to disagree, it's healthy to have an opinion, and it's okay does not mean right. Your relationship is is is going down the drain. It just means we need to work through some things because we are two different people and it doesn't even make sense to hide it from your children.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes, like you said, your model, healthy problem solving, healthy way of communicating. And that it's okay to disagree, right, it doesn't mean we don't love each other anymore. Right, it's fine and we just disagree and we're working on it and we're figuring this out. But every time couples fight behind closed doors, right, studies have shown children's heart rates go up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then one sleep because they're still aware they know they can, you know, sense the, the tension in the room, in the house, like they know something is off, and so all they get is this like very uncomfortable experience that's outside of their control, and they associate that with you know, like disagreements and conflicts, and so now this person becomes avoidance.
Speaker 1:right, they don't want to sit in that uncomfortable space as an adult, and so if, if I get a whiff of us disagreeing, I'm immediately going to drop, like, like my, like my, my, like my, my desire, my wants, and I'm going to agree with you because I need to be comfortable, and if that means I need to be agreeable, then I will.
Speaker 2:But you're not happy. Yeah, yeah, you're not being satisfied. Yes, you're gonna be agreeable to a point. I think that's what people need to understand, right and also like, where they reach that end point and they come because, oh, we've done this so much, everybody has come to their wits end they just can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and the avoidant person would just leave the relationship because they you know it builds resentment right Like I keep letting things go for you and for this relationship and you're not putting in that same effort, you're not compromising, and so now I'm, I'm very resentful towards you, towards the relationship. I'm unsatisfied. I'm noticing um like things that are, you know, negative, or I'm noticing everything that's wrong because I'm noticing um like things that are, you know, negative, or I'm noticing everything that's wrong because I'm not feeling like I'm heard in this relationship yeah, and that makes me think about the negative sentiment couples fall into.
Speaker 2:I always say like oh, when you get to that place where, where they're breathing annoys you, yeah, stop breathing.
Speaker 1:No, I'm like no friend, they will die, they can't yeah, why did you wear that jacket today, out of all days?
Speaker 2:to wear that jacket like but like everything that person does is annoying and I think it's really about it comes down to it. You know, gottman said the four horsemen of relationship apocalypse right, and it's when first couples with good intention they come and say, hey, this is an issue, like you know, I made dinner, why don't you wash dishes? The other partner is like no, I'm just not gonna do this and doesn't do it. So then that turns into over time. You know, I have asked, I talked about it, we did it nicely. Maybe you change your behavior, one at one point, whatever.
Speaker 2:But then over time that turns into criticism yeah right and criticism sounds like you are such a slob, or like you're, so now it's put down so it's no longer it's a character flaw.
Speaker 1:Now it's a character flaw.
Speaker 2:It's like you're just you know now, and then you go from that to what I'm trying to remember, all the four horsemen in order um defensiveness. You're always defending yourself instead of really meeting your partner where they're at and addressing their conflict, their issue. And you know, you defend yourself and you do the what about? What about?
Speaker 1:you know folks start keeping score right, like I did this three times this week, like I need you to do something else. Or like you know, like kind of I I even you know know couples that like will stop washing the other person's laundry, right, or like stop washing the dishes, and so it's like I'm going to wash the dishes that I have used. You can do that for yourself yeah, yeah, that's, that's just.
Speaker 2:I don't know that's crazy. I think I did say it right, so I just looked it up, but I was like I remember criticism, defensiveness and contempt oh my god.
Speaker 1:contempt is the most obvious one, I feel like, when people are just so done, like they really are, you know, at a point in their relationship where, like you know, they get apathetic and it takes a while to get there, and rightfully so, but it's a very hard place to come back from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very hard. It's when you start seeing your partner as beneath you and then eventually couples give up and they stonewall one another Walking away mid-conversation silent treatments. Another, yeah, walking away mid-conversation silent treatments. But so, and thinking about that, what are? How can you successfully solve problems or conflicts? How can you successfully address your conflicts? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:right, I think the first step is realizing like hey, we have a problem, right? Like, how do we even begin to acknowledge that what's happening here needs, like, explicit intervention? Right, it's not something that, you know, somebody can just maybe put in more effort and it'll be okay. This is something that needs to be resolved, so, like maybe a person has lost their like, has lost trust in their partner, or they feel betrayed or they feel alone.
Speaker 2:like those things really need effort and commitment in order for somebody to kind of rebuild those things again yeah, yeah, those, those things are really important, I think, to myself as like some of the recipe, if you will, of like proper, well, a good way of conflict resolution, right, how do you do that? And I think, um, we learned about gentle startup, right, gentle tone, not a harsh startup to um voicing your concern and using I statements I think we say that a lot as therapists I don't know if people do that I mean, it's not a natural way to speak, right and so it makes sense, right, I'm not.
Speaker 1:It's easier for me to say you make me feel this way versus I feel this way right.
Speaker 2:So like saying I've been feeling overwhelmed versus you never helped me um. And saying, like you know, I would like to talk about how we do chores um versus why don't you do any of the housework and you know you make a good point about, like, how you communicate is just as important as what you're communicating.
Speaker 1:Right? 90% of communication, at least, is nonverbal, and so your tone of voice, your facial expressions, your body language, all of that is important in kind of communicating your needs in a way that the other person doesn't get defensive, they don't feel like they're being attacked or judged Because you don't want to start an argument. Right, what you want is resolution, you want something to change, and so sometimes we can get really, you know, caught up in I need something to change. I, like, I'm very frustrated, and so we communicate frustration rather than communicating our needs, and so sometimes it's not about the message, it's about, like, how it's the delivery, and so how are you showing up in a way that is non-confrontational to begin with, so that you can have a conversation that is effective and helpful, because, at the end of the day, like, you want change, and that it's only to your benefit? Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Right. The way you start a conversation predicts how it ends. If you start gently if you do it nicely and also understanding that the problem is not the person, it's just a problem, mm, hmm, right, it's just a problem. Right, it's just that's it, and I think you mentioned that in our previous episode is talking about we versus the problem, not that you are the problem, exactly, yeah, so that's really.
Speaker 1:It really does Even just that reframe it. It shifts the the energy to, not your partner, but to the issue, and so, um, it allows for like there to be. It doesn't have to be hostile or confrontational. For you to tackle an issue together, you can work as a team, you can, you know, bring and. But it also, like when you have that like under shared understanding, there's also shared responsibility. We both need to put in effort to change or to resolve this issue. It's not just one person coming up with strategies like. Both people are putting in effort and both people are trying out the strategies. Nobody is shutting down the other person. You're really giving space for people to kind of share their thoughts and you're, you're using, you're, you're approaching in a very collaborative way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, in my experience I feel like many therapists, they just can't deal with the landmine that is couples. And I used to get so frustrated because I have like a one way mind where you are talking about one problem, stick to that one problem. And I hate it when couples do what about? Right Like tit for tat, right like tit for tat. So if when you really want to resolve a problem, no matter what it is, don't take it personally when your partner brings it up and that also goes to your partner needs to bring it up in a gentle way.
Speaker 2:Right, they have to bring it up in a way they're not attacking you so if they attempted to do that, even if they're not doing it well, like you have to give them grace and you need to say like yeah, you know, I see you're trying, so I'm not going to do the what about Right Like OK, you know, even if nobody's perfect, people are not therapists. And if you're married to therapists it's even annoying. I don't even want to be married to a therapist. Can we use I statement please?
Speaker 1:I do not like I would like you to end this conversation. How about that?
Speaker 2:so you really just um, yeah, don't, don't do it. I say like I learned from one of my instructors in grad school. He says DDT therapy, don't do that. Like. Sometimes I just tell people don't do that and I'm like don't do that, do not worry about your partner. It's not okay. It undermines the relationships, it undermines the person bringing something up now.
Speaker 1:They won't do it next time it's a complete deflection, right like you're not addressing what. What has been brought up, but now you want to have this hypothetical that is not even based on reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so don't don't bring up other conversations. Ask questions, clarify if you don't understand yeah, get to the bottom of what the issue is, so that you are solution oriented.
Speaker 1:You're looking to resolve this issue, not be like oh try to challenge yourself to come up with at least 10 different strategies and then go down the list, right, like no, no strategy is dumb or wrong, like everybody shares five. Right, and you go through it and you try it out and you see what works and what doesn't work, and when you've exhausted the list and the issue is still there, come up with another 10, right, nothing is going to be resolved the first round and that's okay nothing is going to be resolved, um, the first round, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes you just need to know yourself, know that if some a topic is so well touching a sore spot for you, say that like, hey, I want to have this conversation with you and I really want to work on this issue. At the moment, I feel really overwhelmed emotionally. I would like to take a break.
Speaker 1:Emotional intelligence, like knowing what's going on for you in the moment, maybe understanding the source of that, and like being able to have the skills or the capacity to do something about it. Like, how do you emotionally regulate yourself, how do you read the room, how do you notice when your partner's overwhelmed and how can you support them right, how can you step out of this conflict resolution and step back into that nurturing and compassionate caregiver role? And maybe it means pausing the conversation, even if you really want to solve this issue Right, and coming back to another time because you see that your partner is overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it's just us really knowing that. You know, hey, this is not quite you, so maybe pre even I think this is like weird for people that don't go to therapy pre-plan how you resolve your, yeah do all your arguments like can we sit down and say hey, that, like we disagree.
Speaker 2:Can we have a plan like time out? How can we? I request a time out if I feel overwhelmed. Agree that you got to come back. You have to come back minutes an hour and engage again. But like you know, and if I say like yo break, it means I'm just overwhelmed, I'm gonna go away right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't follow your partner out the, out the uh room right, because you wanna want to continue this conversation and they just want to break.
Speaker 2:I know I have seen that. Yeah, I have had couples come to me. He's like I'm walking in every room and she'd be following me. Yeah, and I was like, of course she did I also think timing is important.
Speaker 1:Like don't bring up your financial issues the first thing in the morning, like, right when you both open your eyes, you're like, by the way, let's talk about our depth, like no, like that, like be you know, like mindful, because you you want some, you want resolution, and so being mindful of like hey, I want to talk about this, you know, when we both have time, like let me know, like some people get caught off guard and that itself is difficult for them to engage in that conflict resolution because they're overwhelmed, they didn't expect it or you know, they need time to process things. Not everybody has the same pace and same, um, I think, a level of processing yeah, and just remember to say hey, we're on the same team.
Speaker 2:We're trying to to do this together Right Do repair attempts, even in the conflict.
Speaker 1:You know, like this isn't about you, we're just trying to work on this.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's not you, it's just we have a problem. You know we're a team. Let's breathe together. Let's calm down. Let's take a few deep breaths. Let's make tea. You know, drink a team. Let's breathe together. Let's calm down. Let's take a few deep breaths. Let's make tea, you know, drink and come back. Okay, how can we rationally deal with this? Um, you know, before things blow up, so that's, I think you have to do some repair and attempt to do that, even as you're having the conflict um yeah, you're ending what does your research say about this, karija um?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think this is like a general consensus on conflict resolution styles and duration of relationship right. Couples who resolve their conflict properly in a more effective way, have a more satisfying relationship and their relationships endure.
Speaker 2:They last longer because they know how to how to solve problems. And at the end of what people don't think about is you go into a problem thinking I'm going to solve it. It's either you come out feeling defeated or you come up feeling purposeful or more committed to your relationship. Right, so, thinking of that, have a clear resolution at the end of a conflict and also intentionally reconnect Right After you have a conflict. Yeah, Hug Say you know we agree on this.
Speaker 2:We're on the same team. It's okay, you know, have humor at the end of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, that was tough, but I'm glad we're still alive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you know, one down make a joke A million more to go A million Till death. Do us part remember right, this is nothing, have fun with it and give it your best, right? I mean, especially if the conflict is over things, just when you don't do those things, you just say hey, I know right, like before the other person think accountability yeah yeah, like hey, I know we agreed to that. I'm sorry I let you down. You're not a small person. If you apologize to your partner, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And they have to learn to forgive yeah, you know it's like both people putting in that effort, right, like one person is taking accountability, the other person is giving them grace and they're and they're working together, um, consistently and putting in that effort so one person doesn't feel burdened by, you know, carrying the responsibility of their relationship.
Speaker 1:When you know somebody is able to take accountability, there's a risk right, there's a risk that somebody blames you for something. But if you have a partner that is also willing to accept accountability, it creates that safety and you know safety is what allows people to be vulnerable, to be honest about their mistakes and to acknowledge that. You know things need to be, to be different, there needs to be a change. And if that safety is not there, right, you're always worried that your partner will either use it against you or label you or blame you for something. Then, of course, you're not going to be as forthcoming or wanting to. You know, like share mistakes that have happened, that the the space is not conducive to that yeah, and sometimes you know you don't have to resolve everything, like today, right now, I mean.
Speaker 2:It's impossible to do that yeah, you can say you know we're not getting anywhere, let's sit on this, let's sleep on it. But that doesn't mean we're gonna be sulking right. It's like saying, okay, we have benched this, we put it away yeah, put it in the parking lot right like it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not completely out of your life, but you can always go back to the parking lot when you know you have the capacity and the time to do it yeah, yeah, but for now we're just gonna put it away and we're good, everything is good.
Speaker 2:We know we've got this thing we are working on. We'll come back, because this is not a good time, yeah right, especially if some major stuff is going on or if you are just both escalating. You're not getting anywhere, you're not hearing each other. I'm gonna put it away, yeah and if you can let go of some things.
Speaker 2:That's okay too, as long as you're not mad about it or resentful about it. If you really did some soul searching, yeah, prayed about it, and you decided to let it go, that's okay. You can let go of some things too empathy right.
Speaker 1:Empathy is like the glue to a relationship. Like if you don't have compassion and empathy for your partner, your life partner that you've decided to spend the rest of your life with, it's really hard to come out the other end still connected and still together, because the second you lose that compassion and empathy for your partner, like don't care, you don't care if they're struggling. Um, you get this tunnel vision of I want, like I need to get my needs met and this person is not giving me what I want, right, and so you, you fall into this hyper independence that is detrimental to a relationship yeah and we're not saying like excuse them or like enable their behavior and not hold them accountable.
Speaker 1:Right, you can hold people accountable, um, you know, keep your word, keep your promises and still be empathetic and compassionate, without being degrading or or judgeful yeah, thank you, sam.
Speaker 2:I think I have nothing more to say on this topic.
Speaker 1:I think the main takeaway is right, like, are you putting in the effort and are you willing to like take time and actually resolve your conflict?
Speaker 2:yeah, take time, resolve your conflict. Please start gently, be nice, yeah, be kind absolutely.
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