For the Love of Facts
For the Love of Facts is a podcast where two therapists, Dr. Zamzam Dini and Dr. Kadija Mussa, unpack the truths behind love, relationships, and healing. In a world full of noise and myths, we bring culturally grounded, evidence-based conversations that center faith, connection, and care. No fluff—just facts.
For the Love of Facts
DM Danger Zone: Are You Micro-Cheating Without Knowing It?
Navigating the murky waters of relationship boundaries has never been more challenging. From digital interactions to emotional connections, the definition of cheating has expanded far beyond physical affairs. But when was the last time you and your partner explicitly discussed what constitutes betrayal in your relationship?
This thought-provoking conversation delves into the complexity of modern fidelity and why so many couples wait until after boundaries have been crossed to define them. We explore how cultural shifts and online discourse have normalized certain behaviors, creating confusion around what's acceptable in committed relationships. Is liking someone's Instagram photos crossing a line? What about having a "work spouse" who receives your daily confidences? These seemingly innocent interactions might be causing more relationship damage than you realize.
At the heart of this discussion is a powerful working definition of cheating: any intimacy that should be reserved for your partner but is shared with someone else. This encompasses not just physical acts, but emotional connections, daily confidences, and digital behaviors that redirect affection away from your primary relationship. We break down the concept of "micro-cheating" – those small boundary-pushing behaviors that often precede larger betrayals – and why establishing clear guardrails isn't about lacking trust but protecting what matters most.
Whether you're currently questioning boundaries in your own relationship or simply want to strengthen your partnership through clearer communication, this conversation offers valuable insights into creating relationship safeguards that honor both partners' needs. Don't wait for betrayal to define your boundaries – start the conversation today about what fidelity means to you.
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Hi everyone, welcome back. In this episode we're asking what is cheating and what do we mean when we say that someone has cheated?
Speaker 2:this notion of, like cheating, infidelity. People have their own definitions of what that is right, and I think it really depends on what does your partner consider cheating, what do you consider cheating? And then, where are the overlaps?
Speaker 1:And where do conversations need to happen? Right? Yeah, I mean that. That is true. I don't know if couples actually sit down and have this conversation of like what does cheating mean to me and what does it mean to you? Because it's not just an individual thing and I think it's influenced by community norms, systemic pressures on relationships and really thinking about shifting models of relationships, and what does that mean? How do people understand relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, like. What are the expectations of somebody to be in a relationship? And unfortunately, like these, miscommunications only happen when conflict happens right Like after the fact, right After this person has liked all of these photos on Instagram or have slid into the DMs, right, that's after that, when things have become a problem is when we start having these conversations.
Speaker 1:That is so true. I don't, like I said before, like for people to talk about these issues ahead of time. Right To just get ahead of it and be like, hey, if I like somebody's picture, what does that mean for you? Or like, what are your feelings around that? And I don't know if couples in the premarital stage or like pre-commitment stage, talk about those things. And also, how do they talk about how culture shifts? You know cultural shifts impact their relationship, right? There is now like the hook of culture, social media and online discourse I feel like is normalizing certain behaviors, right?
Speaker 2:It's just so crazy to think like, oh, we're just talking, right, I'm just messaging Like it's, it's so normal now that we really there isn't a common, like shared understanding of like wait, what are the boundaries in a relationship? Right, sometimes cheating is almost expected. Right, where it's like oh well, you know, this person is right. Where it's like oh well, you know, this person is I, I don't know better than this other person, so it makes sense. Or you know, like, even in like celebrity relationships, right, where people are constantly cheating, there's a scandal and now it's like it's big, it's become normalized. They're like well, what did you expect of that person? And just because something happens frequently does not mean it's okay right, right, that almost feels normal, like depending on status level.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, that's expected from that person because they have this status, like they should do not necessarily.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, and I think you this is actually what we were talking about privately earlier about like this notion of open relationships right decides to open up the relationship just to kind of fit the boundaries of the person and not the relationship so that the person has some kind of you know, it feels like they have some kind of control over the situation. You know, we have an open relationship. I don't know, I I'm reminded of like what will smith and jada right of like, right, they have a situationship and all of that discourse around. You know, are we opening up the marriage because we just can't maintain monogamy, or are we opening up the marriage because this is what we both want as a couple unit?
Speaker 1:Right? Or is the other person agreeing to it as a coping mechanism? Right Like so? I don't want to look like a fool and you're going to go cheat, I'm going to say I signed off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that pressure in the couple relationship, and I sometimes think to myself, like you know, at what point in this relationship did you lose your negotiating power? Like, at what point did you just let somebody obliterate your boundaries around what is acceptable and what's not acceptable to you? So I think this really nicely leads into my own personal working definition of what cheating is and obviously and I think it has become so personal at this day and age, you know before, when the world was a certain way, maybe everybody had the same definition, but now I think you have to sit around and think about those things and come up with your own definitions. And for me cheating is all intimacy that should be reserved for a partner or shared. You know that is shared instead with someone else. This could be sexually charged behavior, like flirting, or physical acts, or emotional intimacy that rightfully belongs within the couple Right, Like sharing daily struggles with someone outside of the relationship, having a confidant at work.
Speaker 2:A work wife or a work husband.
Speaker 1:What kind of ridiculous notion is this? Like, no, you know that's a colleague, my friend, you can have a colleague at work, but especially, you're given all of your affection, your attention and care to this work.
Speaker 2:Partner. Spouse, when you come home, you don't have nothing left to give right, yeah, so that's, that's like my definition.
Speaker 1:I'm like all things, okay, all things intimate belongs to me when it comes to my husband.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, you know. Some people may say well, it wasn't physical, right, but you're saying it's. It's a broader definition than that, it's it's emotional intimacy, it's financial intimacy, it's it expands where of like, anything that is reserved for a romantic partner is shared with somebody else right, and some people you know rightfully so say like, okay, something is not cheating if it's done in the open right, and cheating requires that element of secrecy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like no, maybe, maybe not. You know, I think of like, if somebody knows they're doing something wrong and they're being secret about it, that falls into their own definition of cheating. Yeah Right, they themselves acknowledge oh, this is wrong. Therefore I'm going to hide it versus oh. I've had a conversation with my husband or wife and now we figured out. You know, to her this is a betrayal, so I'm going to refrain from doing this, even though in my book it's like meh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. We have to you know, like, like, respect the boundaries of the relationship, right? It's not about the individual, it's about, in this, partner units, what is defined as cheating. That has nothing to do with what I personally define as cheating.
Speaker 1:Right, mm, hmm, yeah, so yeah, that's. That's just this distinction I wanted to make.
Speaker 2:If you're hiding it for, like some gray areas right, like like is liking pictures cheating, what do you think? Or like sliding into someone's DM.
Speaker 1:What business do you have sliding into anybody's DM, like, are you single? If you're single and ready to mingle, go right ahead and slide into everybody's DMs that you think fits you and you want to make something happen, especially thinking about the opposite sex. I think you have to have strict boundaries around those things. Not that I don't think like, oh, you can't have colleagues. I think it's absolutely fine to have colleagues, people you talk to and stuff like that. And also think about, for me as a therapist, right if somebody comes in and they come from a different worldview than mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would say, like, is this normal in your culture? Yeah, do people talk? Is it? Casual relationships are okay, you know. Is it? Casual relationships are okay, you know. And then I again, I would go back to the couple relationship and then probe to see is this creating an insecurity in the relationship? Right then, then. Then you have a problem, right? If your partner is starting to be hyper vigilant and they're worried and they're feeling jealous, then you all need to sit down and have this conversation that Zam and I are having. Like what is cheating in our relationship? Figure that out. But personally, in my opinion, I don't think you have business. Why are you looking that's where I go Like you're no longer single. So for what reason are you liking pictures? Why are you sliding into anybody's DMs?
Speaker 2:Some people would call that micro cheating, right when it's like you're initiating steps that are moving towards, like you're pushing the boundaries of the relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean true, it's not like big I think we talked about it before big B betrayal, right. Yeah, like you haven't, it hasn't become something tangible, like, oh, you went and you did this, granted, but I think of it as still a. It's still a betrayal. If your partner isn't expecting that and they they have put that boundaries on themselves and they themselves are not engaging in this type of behavior, and especially if it has been talked about, then it becomes big b betrayal, right. Like, say, you did it once and you didn't know. And now the conversation comes up, you all talk about it and you have an understanding. You say I'll never do this again. Yeah, because you're doing it again now.
Speaker 2:We have a now it's a bigger betrayal. So now, not only are you repeating the mistake, but now you have betrayed the trust I have in you remediating the the error that you did in the first place, right. So now it's it's double betrayal yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And of course, we touched a little bit on like online discourse, yeah, and I just think there is an oversimplification of relationships that are happening and deeper systemic issue and I would love people with a little bit of authority, people that study relationships, I guess maybe like us to dig more deeper into this. You know, hot takes that happen in, you know, really, in online discourse talking about it's okay if my partner cheats, like especially the male can cheat but the woman can't. This is just these random double standards that have just immersed out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:Like seriously, oh no I mean, and research shows that, like, emotional affairs can be just as damaging as physical ones, right, and it's it's less about kind of the specific act and more about the secrecy, the broken trust. And so, from a therapeutic standpoint, we're looking at kind of what factors are in place that have led to this behavior, right, and we're trying to understand the context. What are the unmet needs in this relationship, right, how do we kind of fill the gaps? But, yeah, yeah, from the outside it's like, well, I wouldn't like, oh, this person is just insecure. Or like I wouldn't mind, right, like this means you know your partner is attractive. Like those are all kind of excuses that allow people to continuously kind of violate values and boundaries for their own personal gain violate values and boundaries for their own personal gain.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I think about, you know, the symptoms of disconnection and also having clear boundaries in a relationship. I cannot emphasize this enough that people really need to sit down and talk about what are the boundaries in our relationship, right, like, what are some like no, no, but I draw the line here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and don't be like a politician.
Speaker 1:You keep moving the line back, you draw the line.
Speaker 2:You gotta stay quiet three months ago I had this stance, but now that I'm given the fact that I have more new information, I think we have some middle ground now.
Speaker 1:No, boundaries are boundaries, and having clarity right and I think that's why we always go back to like you got to do your own work and your own assessment of yourself, so that you can have that clarity and you provide it to your partner also.
Speaker 2:I want to go back to highlight something that you said, where it's like people really have to have explicit conversations around boundaries right, and listen when these conversations happen and usually they happen in the early stages of like getting to know somebody and someone says, yeah, well, what are your pet peeves? Like pay attention to those things, because those are the boundaries, right, and without this explicit kind of intention behind it, we can just hear them out and not really like think about it anymore. We can forget about it, like oh yeah, it's just a pet peeve for you or it's something that irks your skin, but no, this is an actual boundary and I have to be mindful of that, like moving forward if I want to maintain.
Speaker 1:You know what I've seen. Sometimes couples I call it like seriously joking They'll make jokes about serious conversations to see what your boundaries are. You need to be like, yeah, no, this this you know and be explicit and address it when those happen and sometimes things would happen in a couple's relationship friendships among friends, betrayals, these things would happen. Couples will talk about those and that is also a testing ground for you. You need to let your partner know in order. If you are being wishy-washy in that conversation, then that's how they're getting that information right. Like, oh wait, so these things are okay with my partner.
Speaker 2:Right. Like an extension of that is like, be mindful of who you keep around you right, Because your friends are kind of a thermometer for your own value system. What you're allowing to happen in your space, in your presence, and it really is a reflection of you. There's so many different cultures that have sayings around like you know. Show me who your friends are and I will show you who you are Right and it's like, and that's very true. And being mindful of how am I communicating my values, how am I actually acting on those values within my relationship, within my friendships, and how am I setting boundaries to maintain those values so that I stay true to, kind of, where I stand?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I don't know, just thinking about the act itself, I I think like that's just the icing on the cake. Yeah, because I feel like the betrayal happened before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that you got to that right before you get to anything right, everything leading up to it is betrayal right and people always go talk about that one event or however what that is the physical act, people, yeah, wrapped around that and then that's all they want to unpack and at that point I think of it as like that's traumatic for the person experiencing it, yeah, and but then the person who, the aggressor?
Speaker 1:just think of that act, not necessarily all the broken agreements, broken trust that took place that before you got to that and that's that's, I think, of the trust in the relationship and the trust you had in your, in your partner, and honestly, I think you have to do some soul searching prior to even getting into a serious relationship. Be like what do I consider cheating?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:What are my values? Like what, how, what, how do? I in my relationship yeah, and, and how do you hold yourself accountable?
Speaker 2:you don't become complacent yourself, right, and I think there is a little bit of complacency your boundaries, and relax your boundaries, you have a relationship yeah, yeah, and you know, like our social creatures, like we want connection, we want to be partnered, we want to be loved, and sometimes that need overrides, like our value system and our desire for authenticity.
Speaker 1:I have never cheated, but I treat myself like I'm a potential cheater because I give myself boundaries, right? People will be like oh, take my phone number. I only take females' phone numbers at work. I don't take male phone numbers, even though they're colleagues. I have no business talking to my male colleagues. I can ask questions of my female colleagues, right? People are like why are you so strict? I'm like there's no need, because for us we have a different faith, right From what probably our listeners are, and it says you know, don't come near this type of shameless act, right? So I'm like I'm not trying to go near it. Therefore, I don't take. Those are my boundaries and I explicitly explain those to my husband too. Like, no, no need. You can have your male friend, your male colleagues numbers. You can ask them questions. You can ask them to ask someone else questions, right? No need, yeah, and if you, don't need a work wife.
Speaker 1:No need for a work wife, and if there is like like a dire need, what somebody I have to communicate with, I stick to business language. Yeah, I'm not fruity, like good morning, how was your day what? No, this is not my friend. Yeah, so we have like, hey, no, I'm wondering about this and I generally have those check-ins through, you know, teams, whatever work venues to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:So there's no like blurring of boundaries or miscommunication or anything like that.
Speaker 1:No, nothing like that. You have to. You build in safeguards into the relationship, not because you're not a trustworthy person. Yeah, so you don't want to be accidentally falling into situations. You're a human being. Let's be honest, right, like you get comfortable with someone, you like something about them. We're not saying just because you're married or you're in a committed relationship, you're dead. There is bound to be somebody that fits you really well and you don't want to find yourself like in an emotional entanglement and then eventually be like oops afterwards.
Speaker 2:I mean, and like naturally people can confuse, like like seeing somebody every day, for like having feelings for them, right? Or, you know, like shared likes, as, like you know, we're soulmates Like the messages can be read very differently and you know, like I said, because of our need for connection, we may tend to have developed feelings for people that we see all the time, whether it's friendship or romantic. That's a natural process. But being boundary to begin with and having those set in place will help kind of keep you boundary. That's why we have, you know, like, all these trainings in every job that we go to right like of what are the professional boundaries of this workplace, because, you know, when you interact with people, you will develop feelings like that's that's. We're not saying be a robot, like yeah, that's literally impossible, but we're saying be informed, right and be intentional about how you show up in these spaces and in these relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and impose boundaries on yourself and then expect the same from your partner, right, like, just expect the same from your partner and behave within those confines of that relationship. I mean again, it goes back to because if you want the relationship to succeed, at the end of the day, that has to be there, like, oh, I want this relationship to succeed at the end of the day, that has to be there, like, oh, I want this relationship to work.
Speaker 2:therefore, I'm going to eliminate any possibility of me considering others or alternatives in my relationship yeah, yeah, and you know, in in cognitive behavioral therapy there's just we understand that, like, the behavior is a result, right, and so what precedes the behavior is the thoughts and the feelings. And you know, people may not act on your thoughts or your emotions, right, but they're there. And you know, if you don't kind of set these boundaries early on, when you realize these thoughts are coming or this forming like it will eventually lead to behaviors. And whether that happens within a couple of months or a couple of years, that really isn't important. The the idea is that, like these thoughts and behaviors develop way more earlier than any kind of behavioral outcome that people may see on the outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and being like that too that is. That is so true. Yeah, I think about people putting in boundaries, like if you start thinking about, you know, even fantasizing or having thoughts of like, it doesn't have to be a specific person is whom you're considering but just in general right Like right.
Speaker 1:If you start thinking about what a different life will look like, then it's a symptom of a relationship that's not doing well. Then you should be like you know what. We need to do some work. We got to figure out what is going on with us. You know, if you start saying to yourself, oh, if only I had a different husband, then you're like whoa, yeah, we need to work on our relationship.
Speaker 2:Just like people burn out from jobs, right, where it's like the alarm turns on and they're like, oh my God, I have to go to work, or they dread Mondays, right. Like if that's happening for you in your relationship, where you're like I got to go home now, right. Or like or you get a phone call and you're like, oh my God, it's my partner and it's not a very pleasant. Like, okay, there are some symptoms there. What do I need to do to reevaluate Because this relationship is burning you out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, figure, figure things out. And I'm want to ask our listeners have you and your partner actually talked about you know what each of you define as cheating? So that's like, if you happen to listen to this episode, think about that and have you sat down with your partner and had that conversation of if there is alignment or misalignment on your definition of what cheating is and how would you go about resolving that?
Speaker 2:yeah, some food for thought. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you for listening, thank you.
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