For the Love of Facts
For the Love of Facts is a podcast where two therapists, Dr. Zamzam Dini and Dr. Kadija Mussa, unpack the truths behind love, relationships, and healing. In a world full of noise and myths, we bring culturally grounded, evidence-based conversations that center faith, connection, and care. No fluff—just facts.
For the Love of Facts
When ending well is the healthiest choice
The story we’re told says divorce means failure, yet the data—and lived experience—tell a different tale. We dig into what actually moves a marriage toward stability or separation, why “falling out of love” is a flimsy diagnosis, and how real love emerges from the grit of problem-solving, fair fighting, and everyday repair. Along the way, we challenge the idea that infidelity is always the end, and we explore what helps couples rebuild trust versus what makes a clean, respectful separation the wiser choice.
We also get clear about kids. Stability matters, but not at the cost of chronic conflict. We talk frankly about modeling healthy relationships, teaching children how to navigate rupture and repair, and structuring a “good divorce” that centers their needs—clear boundaries, consistent routines, and cooperative co‑parenting. Instead of weaponizing the court system or leaning into secrecy and manipulation, we map out how mediation, transparency, and community support protect everyone’s mental health.
Pulling from research like Gottman’s Four Horsemen and our clinical work with couples, we name the risk factors that pile up—financial strain, isolation, unrealistic expectations, mental health and substance challenges—and the protective habits that counter them: communication that doesn’t blame, cooling-off when flooded, strong social networks, and realistic roles. Whether you’re trying to prevent an unnecessary split or facing the reality of one, this conversation offers grounded tools, language for hard moments, and a more compassionate frame for endings and new beginnings.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review—what’s one relationship skill you’re working on right now?
Follow us on instagram @fortheloveoffacts!
So we know the the famous stats, right, where it's like half of all marriages end in divorce. However, we know that many people still get married every single day. So if we know divorce is so common, why do we still treat divorce as a failure? Today we talk about things that may or may not lead to divorce and why it happens. Kirija, what do you think about that? What really leads couples to divorce?
SPEAKER_01:That that is, I mean, what you just said, you know, if you just sit with it, it's very common, especially for couples, right? What leads couples to divorce? I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, I have experience, I have thought about it, I've done a few research of my own. So, and I also tend to think, you know, there is a good and bad divorce.
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, there's many stories, there's many like narratives around like related to society, expectations, culture, all of that stuff. So let's let's talk through a few like misconceptions about divorce. So yeah, number one, people divorce because they fall out of love. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01:That's a crazy concept, right? That's crazy to think about, like, oh, we fell out of love. I think you fall in a relationship, like it hits you very hard. You fall out of love the second week of marriage. And then, you know, it's everything else that we talked about that keeps you in the relationship. And and I also think to be honest, as someone who's been married 12 years, I think the love is the product of an enduring relationship. I don't think it's like something you start with. That's more of like an passion or infatuation, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, love comes from the everyday struggle. And then it's I just think of it as a byproduct, not necessarily the glue that's keeping the relationship together.
SPEAKER_00:It's like, you know, just because you start a healthy diet does not mean you're guaranteed a healthy body, right? It's like you have to go through the process, be committed to it, and then eventually you may or may not get a healthy body.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And it's just that deep love of knowing somebody, knowing somebody so well, being with someone for so long. I think, yeah, there is that. Of course, that that heightened, you know, that like emotional, the chemical reactions in the early relationship, those fade so quickly as soon as the first hurdle, you know. I think uh Shakespeare.
SPEAKER_00:The rose-colored glasses fall off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like I think, yeah, Shakespeare said, let me not, you know, I guess the admit impediment, you know, like the true marriage of true minds, admit impediment. I think you get to that type of love, that like deep commitment over time. And that first one I think people need to know is very shaky. And then relationships just in and of themselves in the first few years are very shaky, and divorces higher in the first few years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, you're figuring everything out, you're learning how to coexist, you're kind of compromising on things, you're building something new together. So it makes sense. You're gonna need it's gonna start off shaky in the early cup, like couple of years, but that also means you're learning about how how do you love each other in a way that makes sense to both of you.
SPEAKER_01:To both of you, yes. Yeah. In a way that you show up and you learn to problem solve together, right? Like each of you bring in your own skills, and then it then you have that combined couple type of skill, you know, the just the struggle, the negotiations that happen in the first few years. So it's people don't divorce because they fall out of love, and I think probably they fall out of love because they couldn't make the marriage work, they couldn't communicate well, they couldn't problem solve together, and then just bitterness builds over time.
SPEAKER_00:All right, what about misconception number two? Infidelity is the number one cause of divorce.
SPEAKER_01:I know so many people have successful relationships after big, you know, serious infidelity. I mean, it's uh a cause of very serious stress and distress and turmoil and betrayal at the time PTSD, betrayal drama. It's uh yeah, it's seriously damaging. Yeah, but it is up to the two involved on how they come out of that situation, the stronger, or of course, broken up. It really depends on the two people and their I guess the health of their own mental health and their relational skills, you know, how they're able to manage that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. This is when others like the individual strengths are going to shine, right? Where it's like if you didn't have emotion regulation skills in the early beginning, it's really hard for you to kind of navigate your life with a whole nother human being connected to your life now. And so it really does, you know, show what are the individual strengths the person has in this couple system and how are they functioning with those individual strengths. Okay, what about staying married is always better for the kids?
SPEAKER_01:Staying married in a healthy relationship is better for the kids, right? Like the worst thing you can do is involve maybe I shouldn't say this. If you want your child to be abused, bring in a step parent.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, research shows, right? Like the indicator for child abuse is a step parent, right?
SPEAKER_01:So like 70 times I think it's 90 percent higher abuse, it's it's huge, it's that's a big number. So I'm thinking, like, you but children need to be in a healthy household.
SPEAKER_00:The keyword we're in.
SPEAKER_01:Healthy household, right? So it is better if we are married for our children, but it's better for them if we are married and we are happy and we're working through our problems, right? But if we are constantly fighting and the kids, you know, their cortisol levels go up, they learn bad coping, right? Like they learn to do relationships badly from their parents.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they children, you know, you're you are your child's first model of what a relationship looks like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So even teaching them how to do breakups properly, right? If if it comes down to that, not uh being mean to one another. So there is a way of managing the breakup and making it less disastrous on the kids. And of course, uh, it's horrible when one parent withholds the children from the other parent. So there is ways where parents can make the whole divorce so bad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and we're gonna talk about like good versus bad divorce, right?
SPEAKER_01:For the children, but yes, the best thing is true for the children to be in a happy, loving home where both parents are happy, yes.
SPEAKER_00:However, right, if the marriage is not that and it's not healthy, right? It is not better to stay married just for the sake of being married and having the the kids be in the same home, like that is not worth the detriment to the mental health that the children will suffer from in themselves, to the parents, yes, yeah. Okay, all right. Well, we know that kind of you know, in in terms of like research and and Gottman, and we were just talking about how like what are the risk factors that lead to divorce because we know that divorce is not about like one event, it's about patterns, it's about context, and it's about like that resiliency level that we were talking about earlier.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Gottman does keep talking about like you know, the four horsemen and then relationship conflict resolution skills that people bring into relationships. So, you know, criticism, contempt, stonewalling. What is the other one? I I forget, but yes, all of those things matter in a relationship. And thinking about financial strain, it takes a huge toll on couples. Yeah, and really seriously impacts the health of the relationship, economic, not just you know, the financial strain. I mean, even racism and race relations, those impact social, social environment impacts couples. I think we talked about you know stressors before in another episode. And of course, oh goodness gracious, unrealistic expectations about marriage.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah. Your partner cannot be your end all be all, right? They can't be like your your chef, they can't be your your partner, they can't be your financial advisor, like like they're they're not here to make you happy, yeah, yep. And so there's so much pressure for like and expectation that once I get married, like I will be in a happy, loving relationship, fulfilling life just because I am married, yeah. Puts too much pressure on the other person.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. So it's just just you have to know that when you're in a marriage, you are dealing with another whole human being, like a full person. And I don't think there is anybody on this earth that can say I'm easy to live with, right? Like then there they they need to go to therapy for something else. It's true or not. They need to go to therapy for something else. There is no such a thing as an easy person, yeah, yeah, to live with in a relationship because everybody does things differently, and we all are our own people, so yeah, I just think coming into that expecting it to be a little bit of work, not always fun. You know how some people say, Oh, I don't know if my relationship is doing well, and you're like, Why we fought? What you expected not to fight?
SPEAKER_00:And and like, what's up? Yeah, and I know like in a marriage, it's like between two people, but another risk factor is this lack of social support or community, right? If you're kind of isolated from all your friends and family, that could really lead to difficulty in navigating stressful times, especially when the stressful times are your other partner.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, but you do need your support, you do need friends, and I never understand individuals who cut off their friends as soon as they are in a serious relationship. You are setting yourself up in a really bad situation. So, really continue your social network, have those friends, expand them if you can, have couple friends, you know, like friends you have as a couple. Yeah, social network really makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER_00:Mutual circle that like these people can hang out with both you and your partner.
SPEAKER_01:The people you both like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and then you know, another risk factor is you know, the major like stressors, so like infidelity, maybe substance use, personal mental health challenges, those can all kind of impact like it and it makes sense, right? Like, if you're unable to kind of function on in a healthy way on your own, it's really hard for you to show up in a healthy way for another person or your family. All right, well, what makes a good divorce versus a bad divorce?
SPEAKER_01:I think you have to go into the relationship. You know, you went into it in good faith and come out of it in good faith. I think that's I guess maybe that's like my religious teaching, right? Which is separate from them in good manners or live with them in good manners, right? So you really you have to prioritize doing things right as you are leaving the relationship. Um, and you know, that's just having integrity. Um, and you can only you are in charge of you. I think people forget, like, but he is doing that or she's doing this. I'm like, uh, we don't control what other people do, we can only do what we think is right. So for yourself, having how we respond to the other person, right? Yeah, have uh integrity in the process, think about your children's well-being as you're planning on divorcing, right? And develop a plan for healthy co-parenting. Um, maybe go to therapy. Like people say this is crazy. I always advise my couples who are divorcing to go to therapy post-divorce.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They were like, what? And I'm like, no, you need to go to family therapy post-divorce, yeah, so you can figure out all of your life because you have a healthy relationship.
SPEAKER_00:It's a whole nother transition. You're you're in another role now. So, like, you are now uncoupled, which means you know, you're not in a romantic relationship with your partner, but you are still co-parenting, and that relationship and that dynamic is completely different than when you were a couple system parenting in that family system. So expectations need to be clear, boundaries need to be set, right? Just for both people, especially if maybe the divorce was one person's choice, right? That conflict could be there, resentments, neglect, all of that can come up. And if you want to kind of model healthy parenting and healthy kind of conflict resolution for your children, right, maybe it's seeking therapy and kind of having a facilitator be a part of the process. And that that seems like a cool idea.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I I mean, I feel like all people who are divorcing that have children together should do that. If you don't have kids together, there's no need to torture yourself.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Just go your separate ways, still do it with good intentions, right? Because you once loved this person. There is no need to be hostile.
SPEAKER_00:Well, torture, what makes a bad divorce?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, hostility, you know, manipulation and secrecy. They harm not just, you know, if you had children, your children, but your own mental health, right? It's not good for you, it's not good for the other person. Yeah, just really be open, be honest, be transparent, and yeah, yeah. And you again, you're only in charge of what you can do and have integrity in that process.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Just because somebody, you know, asks for divorce, that that does not mean, okay, well, now the gloves are coming off. Yeah. And you know, I'm going to drag this person through the mud. Yeah. You have to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Don't show your worst, your worst side in this process, right? I I don't like it. There is this whole community of people who are walking around saying everybody's narcissistic. I don't think that, but obviously there are some people because it's not as prevalent as people say it is. But there are a few people that are narcissistic. Don't show your narcissism in this process. Just let it go. Yeah, no. And of course, family support matters, having your family around and getting communal support and also thinking about mediation versus conflict, uh, you know, to dragging each other through the courts. Yeah. Not good for anybody. So try to resolve that. So you don't want somebody making a judgment on your life like you lived your life. They did it.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, and just be mindful of like, you know, don't be swayed by your emotions. It's it's it's a definitely like emotionally charged moment in your life, just like how, you know, getting engaged for the first time was emotionally charged. Like, you know, this relationship is ending, and there's grief and loss that comes with that. And so allowing yourself to grieve and you know, process the loss and try to reorganize your life moving forward and do it with with dignity to yourself, right? To your the memory of the relationship, to your you know, family, whether there's children involved, being mindful of all of that because at the end of the day, right, your life is changing in a way that was not expected. And so, how do you want to move forward? What how do you want to start this new chapter of your life? Do you want to start start it with pain and resentment or with kind of you know hope for something different?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that really makes sense. Yeah, try try a different path from what you've been doing. You probably have been fighting for too long.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, divorce doesn't mean failure, right? Sometimes it means it's it's a healthier path.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, yep, it does. And couples separate, you know, they can separate in a way that reduces harm and they can preserve their dignity and each other's dignity. So I think be mindful. I think therapists, we love saying that word. Be mindful and intentional. Be mindful and intentional in what you're doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which means like don't, you know, be don't make rash decisions and don't make very important decisions when you feel like you're not emotionally like intentional, like you're not aware of what's happening. Yeah. And the cool thing about therapy is that you know, it can help in preventing unnecessary divorce, but it can also help in guiding what a good divorce looks like for both of you. Obviously, your therapist is not gonna make that decision for you and tell you you should get a divorce because that would be unethical. But they can help guide you both in figuring out, well, what do you want from this relationship? And are they are those needs aligned? And if they're not, what is that what does that look like for your future? Right. And so having a clear, intentional conversation can be just as helpful as working on maintaining this relationship.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, you can still have a family vision board, right? It just looks different. It just things just look different. Just because you're divorced doesn't mean you know everything is now down the drain. Not necessarily. It just means you're gonna build differently and you're gonna come off, you know, you can engage in this process in in a way that you come out of it stronger mentally and physically, or you can engage in this process in a way you come up bitter and angry. So really choosing which way you want to go. And if your partner is choosing to be petty, just let them have their petty party. Like on their own. That's a party of one. Exactly. You're like, I'm not joining in this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. It's like, do I choose post traumatic stress or do I choose post traumatic growth? Yeah. It's really, you know, an option that you have.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. Thanks, Sam. That was really fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you all for joining us. I look forward to another discussion.
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