For the Love of Facts
For the Love of Facts is a podcast where two therapists, Dr. Zamzam Dini and Dr. Kadija Mussa, unpack the truths behind love, relationships, and healing. In a world full of noise and myths, we bring culturally grounded, evidence-based conversations that center faith, connection, and care. No fluff—just facts.
For the Love of Facts
What If Healing Means Letting Go Of Closeness
The moment the puzzle pieces click—why a parent withdrew, why rules felt harsh—can feel like relief. But insight alone doesn’t mend what’s torn. We dig into the shift from understanding generational trauma to actively healing it, especially in immigrant families where survival often outruns emotional process. The heart of our conversation is accountability that names impact without spiraling into shame, and boundaries that protect connection instead of cutting it off.
We talk about what repair looks like in real life: parents saying I’m sorry this hurt you and tolerating the discomfort of hard truths without defending their intent. We unpack why trauma dumping doesn’t build trust, how separation can become avoidance, and why healing doesn’t require forgiveness or closeness. Instead, we offer a practical path built on emotional regulation, realistic expectations, and “high nurture, high challenge” boundaries that keep relationships safer and clearer. From limiting call frequency and defining off-limit topics to holding the line when boundaries are tested, we share scripts and strategies you can use today.
If you’ve wondered how to honor your family and honor yourself, this conversation gives you language, clarity, and next steps. The goal isn’t to erase the past; it’s to loosen its grip on your present so you can love, parent, and partner with more freedom. Listen, share with someone who needs these tools, and if our work helps, follow the show, leave a review, and tell us the one boundary you’re ready to hold this week.
Follow us on instagram @fortheloveoffacts!
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of For the Love of Facts. Today we are following up our discussion from our last episode, Hayden Scars Visible Parenting, and discussing kind of how to support immigrant families in breaking generational trauma. So if you haven't already, please go back to episode three from season two to listen to that introductory discussion. So Khadija, what are we kind of uh discussing today?
SPEAKER_00:Really thinking about how to break generational trauma, right? Of first, we're trying to build understanding and then thinking of understanding and learning about what trauma is in our family systems, and thinking about that as it's not healing, right? Understanding is not healing. I say that because you know, the more you learn, the you do better, you do things differently. Um, but at the same time, healing is an active thing that all people need to participate, right?
SPEAKER_01:So awareness is like the first step, like it's you know, a lot of people say, Yeah, I have some trauma background, like I've had experience, and then they just like leave it there, right? It's like, well, what are you gonna do with that trauma? It's not it's not a part of your identity, right? It's not who you are, it's something that has happened to you. And so, what what are you doing to kind of work through that trauma, not just hold on to it?
SPEAKER_00:Right. I mean, uh like you said, trauma helps you make meaning, it gives you understanding, right? It's like I know now how the chips fit together, right? And I know why I do the things I do, right? It can also explain some behaviors, but it doesn't excuse the behaviors, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. Yeah, it's an explanation of the way of understanding why I respond a certain way, or why did my parents, you know, treat me in a specific way, not like it's okay that you were treated this way because of the drama.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I think we are trying to normalize that because you understand something and it makes sense doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, like if I know why my parents are the way they are, it doesn't get rid of the fact that like their distance hurts me or the things they say hurts me, right? Like I understand it, but it's still the outcome, right? We're not trying to make you say, okay, now you understand, so get over it. This is not what that is, because processing things takes time, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, and it's yeah, and it like you know, the immigrant families tend to want to skip some steps, right? It's like jumping, like, okay, you know why this happened now. Like, now let's get over it and move on. Well, it's like, no, I still need to sit with the I still need to digest it, I still need to process it. Because we know, right in research and in our clinical experience, unresolved trauma stays in your body, right? It doesn't go away, it sits there, it fetters, and it moves on to the next generation. And without direct intentional intervention, it really won't change.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of my favorite professors in grad school used to say people think they put things to rest, but they bury them alive and they keep knocking at random times, right? Yeah, from the grave. It's not dead, it's just it's not haunting you, yeah. Haunting you. So there is that need and want because you don't want to sit with the shame, right? The parents feel guilt and shame, so they don't want to sit with that. So there is the tendency for human beings, and that's normal to try to rationalize things away or yeah um rush the process of healing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But at the same time, we have to distinguish the concept of understanding. It's different from actively repairing relationships and doing something different. Um, so I guess in this episode, we'll focus on like what comes next.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_00:And we're thinking about, yeah, what comes next is really what does accountability look like for parents, immigrant parents, even and I think you can think of this accountability and it can be translated across different relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you know, we've kind of discussed our last episode of like how does how trauma manifests in parenting in immigrant families and what that can look like. And so for children, that can be a very jarring experience, and as they get older, you know, kind of build that resentment or have that emotional distance. And so part of that relational repair of that like coming back together is you know, people taking accountability. And I think parents, yes, but I also think children, and we'll kind of get to this, but also like having children hold empathy for their parents too, right? It's kind of both sided agreement. But we when we talk about like how parents can hold like accountability or take responsibility, accountability is not the same thing as like guilt or self-blame, right? We're not saying, oh, you you were a bad parent, or like why could why couldn't you or she should have, right? Like, we're not placing judgment on any kind of parenting. We know that trauma manifests in many ways, and sometimes it's it's not conscious, and so we're not aware of like we are as reactive as we are. So it's about how do you kind of take responsibility without shaming the parents, right? Without blaming and saying, you ruined my childhood, I don't know how to connect with other people because of you, right? Like, why couldn't you just be normal, right? We're not, we want to be able to kind of hold you know their pain and in respect and also hold them accountable for it being actively involved in that repair.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think you said this, but I just want to echo it again is that accountability is acknowledging impact, right? Not necessarily wallowing in, like, well, this is why I did at the time. This is there's no need to make excuses, right? Yeah, yeah. It's just that was your reality, and those were the decisions that were made, and then this is the impact, right? Factually. You don't want to accidentally gaslight people. So just acknowledge and accept the impact, right? Yes, even if that was not my intention, this is what happened to you, right? Like just saying that alone, right? Obviously, as a parent, it's never your intention to actively harm your children. Yeah, but you have to acknowledge the harm that happened, regardless of intention, or right, regardless of the situation and the circumstance, right? Like, okay, yes. Um I'm sorry this happened to you. You know, I'm sorry I didn't see it and I didn't make a change in time to fix this relationship, right? Like that is opens so many gates and repairs, just taking accountability and saying, I'm sorry this shouldn't have happened, it should have been different for you. Um, you know, and I'm sorry as a parent I didn't do that at the time. Um and to build bridge and understanding, parents don't have to retell their whole traumatic history to their children. I've had clients where exactly they that was traumatic in itself. Yeah, yeah, right. Like they they have complaints and now they have this vivid picture of what happened to their parents.
SPEAKER_01:Trauma dumping is is not the best strategy.
SPEAKER_00:That's not how you fix relationships, like just because oh, I want them to understand me. Yeah, yes, yes, I want them to understand me, but they can understand me intellectually without re-experiencing what happened to the parent. Um, because I think like there's that need to try to bridge the understanding gap, right? Like, I just need you to see it my way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's almost like a need of like validation. Like, I need you to hear all the horrible things I went through so that you feel bad for me.
SPEAKER_00:Feel bad for me and excuse my behavior, yeah, yeah, right. Like, no, you had a very shitty life, got it, right? Yeah, but that's no reason to make my life a living hell in the process, yeah. Or like that, the same thing. I think there is that gap in understanding in uh I think all relationships really, if I just explain enough, if I just share enough of what's going on with me, then that's that will create that understanding. Therefore, I don't have to feel ashamed, I don't have to feel guilt for what I did or the impact of my actions. Yeah, but we have to separate those two and also say you don't know what you don't know, really. Yeah, everybody makes decisions with the information they have at the time, yeah. Right, like you live in.
SPEAKER_01:But nobody's asking for perfect parenting, right? Yeah, so it's fine. You're not we're not blaming or shaming you for what happened, but we do need you to take accountability for how it occurred and how it impacted the people around you, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then just that act of acknowledging, like I said, of the emotional experience, the impact is protective for children, yeah, right. Like just saying that I am sorry, my behavior caused you harm. Like, period. That is huge coming from a parent. Yeah, I am sorry. Like I didn't do what I was supposed to do, but some parents think that's demeaning, right? How am I gonna say I made uh major mistakes or I harmed you? Like, how can I say what kind of parent I am? And then you know that their own working understanding of what a parent is, their emotional health, all of those things come into play. And I think that's really unnecessary. And we keep saying to people, do a little bit of soul searching because at the end of the day, the relationship is more important than your own ego. This relationship is more important, the repair in the relationship is more important than if I feel bad or uncomfortable in the moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I feel like we should put that on a t-shirt. Your relationship is more important than your ego. I think that applies to any kind of relationship, honestly. Right, and and so, like when we when we think about you know what is accountability, right? We're also talking about parents are responsible for regulating their own emotions, yes, right? Where children shouldn't be caretaking or you know, being mindful of the child the parents' emotions or emotional state. There should be a level of emotional safety, and we you know, parents are responsible for being able to handle these discussions, to be able to regulate themselves and to be able to be in control and not reactive, and that is not something that you know anybody else can do for them, and we can't just blame trauma for that, too.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, you reminded me a whole other thing that I was not thinking about. Yeah, so how whatever happens in your life isn't an embarrassment to the parent, and then they will say, How could you do this to me?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You're like, What? Say, for example, if you're getting divorced, how could you do this to me? You're like, excuse me, ma'am, it's happened to me. I am getting divorced, not you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:So the emotional reactivity of some parents, and it happens a lot. And at that point, I guess the language we can give the children is to say, like, mom, dad, this situation, this bad thing is happening to me, and you're making it about yourself and you're not being supportive right now. Like this, this is not about you. Yeah, and at this moment, I would like you to be there for me and supportive to me and not make this about you. And if you feel like it's normal, if you feel grief and sadness like this is happening, but I think that's something you can deal with outside of this interaction by yourself, by yourself, go on a walk, yeah, ma'am. Go on a walk and process this, talk to your own friends, they can support your grief, right? But like when you're here, you're here to support me. So creating, I think, clear boundaries. So I guess this nicely goes into what does healing look like, or what does healing require?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and just like you know, trauma manifests in different ways, healing is also just as complex, right? And so it's more about like how do we reduce unrealistic expectations because when people think about healing, they think, well, I'm never gonna have to deal with this ever again, right? I've already done the work, right? Haven't you heard that before? Yes, I've done the work or I've been to therapy, and and the thing with trauma is like you know, there's it's more of a wound. And so when there's a wound, there's a scar. So there's those scars are are permanent and they will are still visible. And so when we think about healing, it's more about well, how do I have a realistic expectation of what healing looks like for me?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And how do I keep you know guilt or shame at bay so that I can do the work and I can actually engage in the work that allows me to attain or work towards that healing.
SPEAKER_00:And also, I think one hallmark, Harry Aponte used to talk about this a lot, is that you one hallmark of healing is being able to sit in the discomfort of that experience, to be present in the discomfort. So meaning you regulate yourself while remembering all of those things. And not only that, you can sit across from somebody sharing the same experience you have or be in conversation with a parent or a sibling, and that discomfort doesn't overwhelm you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, right.
SPEAKER_00:You find a way to be centered and then be like, yes, yeah, and you know, that's uh when a lot of systemic conversations that happen and when people are trying to hold each other accountable, that's when reactivity comes in because people are just so uncomfortable in the hard like hearing it, right? Like when this happened, and you know, when this when you did that, or having have you not heard so many parents saying, Don't talk about that? I thought we're over this. Yeah, yeah, can we move on? Because they are still not able to sit in that discomfort. Um and of course, I think so that requires self-regulation, emotional regulation. And after you know, you make meaning of your experience, you learn to regulate yourself, you learn to sit with that, and that takes time. Don't rush through that process. Yeah, and then you create new boundaries for your relationships, right?
SPEAKER_01:And speaking of boundaries, I feel like this discussion brings up this notion of like, is is cutting off family like is that is that a positive coping skill, or is that just like a another form of avoidance?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I think it's a form of avoidance again, because you're not able to sit in that discomfort. Yeah, like one way of healing is accepting who the other person is, right? Like my parents don't have the capacity to acknowledge my pain. Yeah, like they don't have the capacity to acknowledge my pain. So does that mean I throw them away and just move on? Right? Or do I accept that's who they are and I have healthy boundaries around our relationship, right? Like in how we engage, and then I still keep them in my life because they are my parents.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And obviously, you know, there are always exceptions to the rule, and we're not talking about like abusive parents that, you know, don't believe in your existence. We're not talking about that. We're talking more about kind of people where there's there's friction in the relationship, but the friction is so overwhelming that you cannot regulate yourself in their presence, right? And they live in your head rent-free. And the the only thing that you can do to regulate yourself is to completely detach away from them, right? That is not a form of healing, that's more of a trauma response of like a f like you know, our fight or flight response where you're fleeing, right? The stressor instead of kind of sitting with that just discomfort.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, healing doesn't require you to have seer, like you know, how your idea of like, oh, I should be able to share everything with my parents. Yeah, you could be one of those people. No, you don't, you unfortunately don't do that, yeah. Right? Like recognizing and understanding what that relationship looks like, yeah, and figuring out how you protect yourself and your peace in that relationship, and at the same time giving that relationship its due, right? Especially from our worldview, like we don't cut off parents, right? Because they still have that parental role, so you don't cut them off, but then how do you then figure out healing doesn't require closeness, right?
SPEAKER_01:I don't have to be emotionally close, it's about how do I reorganize this relationship and the these dynamics in a way that makes sense to me, that feels safe to me, that is appropriate to me because my ideal version of this is not gonna happen, it does not exist anymore. Like you said, you know, the capacity is not there, and so how do I not lower my expectations, but how do I create more realistic expectations?
SPEAKER_00:And that way you might have to lower your expectations, yeah. You might have to give up on something, yeah. Like your parents are not gonna be one of those that are gonna be like hugs when they see you, yeah, yeah. You just you just gotta give that up, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like until for adult children, right? Healing looks like how do I work on my own nervous system, even if my parents will never change? How do I be okay? And how do I practice kind of dealing with the byproducts of the relationship in my own way so that I am okay at the end of the day?
SPEAKER_00:So I think cleanly we can say this. Yeah, healing does not require forgiveness, definitely confrontation and like you said, closeness. You don't have to understand and move on, right? Yeah. Um, and then healing what it does is it involves separating intent from impact, right? So that that gives you that healthy understanding, um, and then you Can name patterns and know what they are so that you don't self-blame or be confused. And like you said, work on your own nervous system and your own emotional regulation and reactivity. And I think we are already said a little bit about compassion and boundaries. Do you want to say a little bit more about, you know, we talked about what boundaries are a little bit, but just to give people concrete, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so when we think about, you know, like emotional safety, like what makes a relationship healthy, having boundaries is a protective factor that allows people to be in relation with other people in a way that makes sense to them and that is safe for them. So when we're talking about healing, people kind of, like you said, automatically assume I need to have this person has to have open access to me. Like that is my proof that I forgave them. And that's not really the case, right? You can have a boundaried relationship where you are compassionate, you care, you have empathy for them, but you're also kind of firm in your boundaries. I call this like high nurture, high challenge, right? Where you you have this like you you you care for the person, right? Boundaries is not like I think people sometimes think boundaries is like separation or there's like walls built up, and that's not the case, right? It's about kind of protecting us from ongoing harm so that we're not continuously disappointed or continuously hurt because we've allowed this person to be in our lives, right? When you are able to be boundaried, you're able to be in a healthy interaction with the other person.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, if we give, I'm always like, okay, what does that look like? Like we keep saying boundaries. What does that look like in action?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What that looks like is sometimes you call your parents no more than two times a week. Right? Like you don't want to overmall yourself with that uh interaction. And then in this same in the interaction, you build in not code words per se, but things we don't talk about. Like things that will activate me, that will activate you, right? And you or we say, like, okay, I am calling you to ask how you're doing, you know, and tell you how I am doing, but not necessarily like getting advice, or if they start giving you advice most of the time, you know, that's when they start having opinions about your life. You say, I really love, you know, I appreciate that you're thinking of me and I appreciate you sharing that, but I prefer if we don't do that. That's that's like that's my boundary. Yes, that's holding the boundary. Um so also intentionally distancing and being close when it is necessary, or building like, okay, how can we as a family reorganize? So creating that conversation of like, okay, even within siblings, these are some things that I'm not okay with dealing with, or like how you ask for timeout.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, when families get together at big meetings, there are things come up. Then, you know, learning to say like time out. So being really clear and consistent from what you want from that relationship that really is protected.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I tell my clients all the time the most important thing about a boundary is maintaining it, like being consistent. Yes. Right. The first time you said it, like, yes, the boundary is out there, but the real work happens when the person tries to violate that boundary. And then what do you do? Right? Do you let them cross your boundary or do you reinforce it? And so reminding them of the boundary and holding that boundary is what is the actual work, not just putting the boundary in place to begin with.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah, those are great. So, how do they move forward? How can people move forward?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so we we kind of talked about intergenerational trauma, right? And how trauma may like manifests in different ways and is stays in the family system if it's unresolved. And so one way of kind of working against that is uh breaking the cycle, right? And I tell my clients all the time, like the best thing that you can do for your children is your own work, and and so and I think we can change that to the best thing you could do for your relationships, right, is your own work. And so focusing on yourself, right? Focusing on your own emotional regulation, your own, you know, repair in relationships and kind of focusing on progress because at the end of the day, you can't control anybody else outside of you. And when it comes to uh family dynamics, we can always, you know, communicate and talk to our parents about what our needs are, but we can't force them to change. And so what healing looks like could be just focusing on your own work, right? And and kind of going through like learning your own coping skills and learning about how how you as a potential parent, right, can change kind of those patterns.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Wow, I think you said everything. Um to reiterate, yeah, people have gone through real things and they survived real hard experiences. And understanding that, you know, makes you make sense of the past and probably that current what you're leave living through your current situation. Um, but healing is really what you choose to do next. Um, and hopefully, I hope our listeners choose to engage actively in their healing process.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, remember the goal is not to erase the past, but to reduce its control over the present.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. All right, thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_00:See you next time.
SPEAKER_01:Bye.
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