Ep. 21 - A "Just Us" Episode

Winter is (almost) over, spring break is playing hard to get, and The Pickup Meeting is back with a classic “Just Us” episode. Brody and Kevin kick things off with birthday gauntlets, daylight savings time grievances, and a spirited debate over the Winter Olympics. Speed skating? Hockey? Iconic. 

What does it really mean to lead when leadership isn’t popular? How do you make tough calls, pivot initiatives, and have hard conversations with compassion? Kevin and Brody dive into the quiet weight of leadership in higher education, the importance of modeling self care, and why building a trusted professional network might be the most strategic move you make.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. It's The Pickup Meeting, Brody, we're back at it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, just us episode.

Kevin Thomas  
Late February.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Let's go. Let's go. Winter is almost over.

Kevin Thomas  
Winter is almost over. Let's kill it off. Spring is here, hooray.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
By the end of February, I'm always like, come on. I'm looking at the weather every day like it's gonna turn. The worms gonna turn.

Kevin Thomas  
I think you get to the end of February, working in higher education, and you think spring break is almost here, and that looks at the calendar this year, and it's like, spring break is not close. It feels later in the year. Why are you so far away?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, yeah, I hate wishing February away. We were talking about this the other day, like it's, it's a gauntlet for me, like the winter is like my youngest daughter, Macy, her birthday is December 26 my wife's birthday is January 31 my oldest daughter's birthday is February 19. And then, you know, we talked about Valentine's Day the last just us episode, right? Like you got Valentine's Day in there too. There's a lot of things to be grateful for for me is I hit the end of February right, celebrating a lot of milestones for my family. So I don't want to say it's all bad.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and similar, braden's birthday is tomorrow. Oh, that day early Braden. Yeah, that's awesome. He does listen to the episode. So an early birthday, and then my mom and my wife's birthday is within the next week after that. And so it's a timeframe that everything is pretty tight there, too. I will say the other thing that comes up here pretty quickly, that when you get to the end of February you're looking forward to is the end of daylight savings time, or as I like to call it, things we should stop doing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes. Please.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, mental health is important. Seasonal Depression is a real thing. Not crap off. Yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I, I think about, like, early winter, like, and, but it's still in February, like, it's still dark, you know, like, oh 435, o'clock where I am like, that's no good, yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
And I really, I understand that at some point, and this still is a thing that farmers having armies of kids, was a thing to work in the fields and do things around the farm. There's a little less of that nowadays, so we please stop this? Yes, please, please.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Other things that have stopped here recently. And so I'm curious, Brody, are you a Winter Olympics person? Dude, I love the Winter Olympics. You love all Olympics or Winter Olympics? Well, I like the Winter Olympics and all the Olympics, but Winter Olympics is super, super fun. I was thinking about this, like I said, we have to talk about the Winter Olympics, and here's why. I mean, I was 10 years old, and I did watch, I remember this. We watched the US versus USSR match in 1980 Winter Olympics. Now it was tape delayed so that we knew the game was over. Like, I mean, I didn't know because we didn't have the internet. And I was 10 years old, nine years old, but the world knew. But Kevin Thomas, you didn't know because you weren't even born yet, right? 

Kevin Thomas  
I only remember the hit movie was that what it's called Miracle and ice. There it is. No, it's just called Miracle. Oh, is it right? I don't know. I just remember going to the movie and seeing that, but obviously you remember Al Michaels call and you've seen the highlights and that type of thing. But did I see it live? No, because I wasn't alive.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, there are some people that argue that that's the greatest sports moment in history.

Kevin Thomas  
I could see it. I mean, as you reflect upon being there, would you say that was the greatest of your time frame. I if I had been there, maybe I would say it even as a nine year old, I don't know, the 2011 World Series game six sticks out. Pretty big for me, that's pretty good. Do you have a favorite sports that you like to watch? Like Summer Olympics? I feel like you're either a track and field person or a swimming person. You're not usually like winter Olympics. What's your thing?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I love the speed skating, both the distance and then when they go around the track like this is a random story that I just now realized that we hadn't talked about it all, but Catherine did an internship with the US Olympic Committee in Lake Placid in the fall of 96 When I went there over Thanksgiving break, and she had been working with Anton Paulo Ono, who won a couple of gold medals in 96 she'd been working with the Bob sweaters. She worked with some of the women's hockey players. And all I can remember from that visit is none of those things, but that we played football on Thanksgiving Day, like in the snow, and I won the MVP of that game. So I competed against Olympians and came out with the gold medal that day.

Kevin Thomas  
I feel like I'm going to need verifying on this story.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You can, you can talk to Cat about it. I had a couple touchdowns, a couple interceptions.

Kevin Thomas  
Like, who are you? Were you playing against the figure skater?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Like what was happening? No, it's real.

Kevin Thomas  
Olympians, and you were the MVP. I was God, and that's not a dig on figure skaters. But let's talk about the ones I don't like figure skating. Yeah, I don't get this. I don't either I agree, because here's the thing, if it requires. And I struggle in gymnastics too. So stop it there, haters of sports, of this, this genre, but if it comes down to the German judge, I'm just going to pick on Germany for no particular reason. The German judge given me a 9.473 because I didn't blink six times. Yes, I got some issues there. Yeah, I don't get it. I like the pump, I like the circumstance. I like it right? Like, I enjoy the show.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Hockey is great. Skiing is great. Speed Skating is great.

Kevin Thomas  
Anything with the downhill stuff, like, when you're on ski jumpers. You're jumping and you're flying in the air. Sign me up for watching those people risk their lives.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, all right, let's go. So yeah, I enjoyed the Winter Olympics a lot, just not figure skating, but I don't enjoy diving either or gymnastics, because judges are determining who wins.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I don't love that. Well, let's talk about something more fun, higher education. Let's do it all right, I am at this point, and this is not on our list. It was not on our list of topics. And so who knows where this will go. Who knows Leadership isn't always popular.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Doggone it, Kevin.

Kevin Thomas  
I think it's important that we have these conversations on our role within institutions, in the impacts that we're having, and how that really works. And what really made me think about this, and some of this is, you know, you talk about this with advising conversations. I always say, you know, how do you know that it was an effective advising appointment? I've heard people say, Well, do the students come out of the appointment happy? Do they they come out of it feeling good? And I would say, that's, that's not great, like you want them to, but you could tell them that they're going to get a million dollars, and they're going to come out happy. Yeah? You know, you could give them all the wrong guidance, but you could sell it in a really great way. They're going to come out happy, yeah? And I think that sometimes for leadership, you know, people like, oh, well, your people like you, and you seem to be doing well, and they really, they're really motivated to work for you. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Those things matter, yes, but, but there are other things that matter too, right? Kind and good leadership is maybe having a difficult conversation with compassion, with an employee that's really challenging them to be better, right? Right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, because, in this case, sometimes unpopular leadership leads to effective outcomes. Yes, in and I work, I don't worry about this. I wonder more, bro, do you talk a lot about the end of your timeframe in the profession? And some days I think you think that's tomorrow, and some days I think you think that's years from now. But when you think about that, does it shape your future, or does it shape the next few years and how you handle things differently?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I don't know. I don't know about that, like the one thing, though. So I do think, for example, right, within Nakata folks, maybe I have a particular persona, right, and it's very positive, and I talk about happiness and meaning making, and I think that in my work, I've tried to reflect that kind of positivity and look like any normal human. I think having difficult conversations are difficult, and I try to avoid them whenever possible. But sometimes they are necessary. Sometimes making hard decisions are necessary, and I think the best leaders are willing to do that like and. Sometimes that's about streamlining a program. Sometimes it's about moving a staff member to a different area. Sometimes it's about recalibrating a particular initiative. Sometimes it's about doing all this work for something and then not seeing the fruits of the labor, because you got to pivot away from something that you thought was going to be a priority, and now it's no longer a priority. All of those things require kindness. I think they require a positive approach, but they sometimes aren't very popular, but they're no less essential.

Kevin Thomas  
I have worked at UCA. I'm completing year seven, and if I'm here seven years in one day, it'll be the longest I've been at an institution. And and some of that's because I have aspiration to be in certain positions, and higher ed is really built oftentimes with you have to move out to move up. It's not a great mentality. It doesn't award loyalty and doesn't award perseverance at an institution, but that happens a lot in higher education, and I think about this from a conversation that was had recently and with a colleague, and they said, Listen, I only have a few years left here, if I'm really going to do some good, I'm gonna do a lot of things that don't necessarily make people happy, because I'm gonna do the things that need to leave impact beyond my time here. Yeah, and I've really gotten stuck in that thought of when you're transitioning to a certain point and when you're you're leading at a certain point how you are doing the right things for the institution, the right things for your students that may not be viewed as the right things by the people that you're surrounded by. And I think that's really strategic and powerful leadership that is often not talked about.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I I would agree with that completely, and and I would also say, when that's happening, I think the best leaders, right, like, so I think when we have to make decisions like that, like, I've spent a lot of time in the last three or four years, right? And really, you know, as I left my old institution and came into this new institution, starting to think about, like, asking the right kind of questions, like, what if we did things differently? What if we thought about this process differently, and that does, that does require people to kind of come along for the ride, and sometimes it's not easy. And I think the best leaders are like, I spend a lot of my time, maybe way too much of my time, questioning whether or not I'm having an impact, whether or not I feel like my my leadership is effective, right? And I think the best leaders, hopefully are doing that constantly, but it does make the work a lot harder. Because I think when you care that much about the work, and I feel like when you said, like, how many years I have left, I don't know how many years I have left, but the one thing I feel pretty confident about is I'm still pretty passionate about higher education, still pretty passionate about academic advising, and until I lose some of that passion, I feel like I'm going to be willing to take a look at leadership and take a look at the work of higher education and academic advising and student success in a way that benefits students and staff the most, right And sometimes that means making decisions that aren't very popular. It just is reality.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I think I keep the not popular or the strategic list in my mind at all times and and I think that strong leaders, I'm not gonna say, I'm not even gonna self brag in that way, not even say that that's it. I think effective leadership always has things that they know need tweaked, even if it's a little bit, you know, is, are your offices organized correctly within your division? Or, you know, do you have the right structure of leadership for effectiveness in your team? You know, like those type of things that, again, aren't always popular, but are the things that might need to happen. Because I don't think higher education is alone in this. I think that sometimes structures are built because it's convenient, and structures are built because of the people that are in place at a certain time. I've looked back on positions that I'm in, and it's, it's like, well, after I left, did that necessarily go well for the people that came in after me? No, but I think that had to do with my skill set being of a certain way, and the person coming in trying to fit their square technique into a round hole. Like it just doesn't always work. Way. And so I think leaders having that list of things that they need to always be aware could be there as that. Hey, let's let's change things up. Let's make an impact. Budget cuts are coming. We got to change the way we function. There's too many staff on whatever it might be. I think you always have to be prepared as a leader for the unknown that's there that you may never, ever need this list, but you sure should know what's on it. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And I think the other thing about being a leader is sometimes, sometimes we're we're willed to have to produce results that lead to unpopular actions, but really are edicts from above where you're the messenger and you have to motivate staff to move forward on maybe a particular issue that you're not you're not that keen on, or that you don't automatically agree with. And I think that does require nuance, and sometimes it requires, I think, a focus on the humanity of the work first, rather than thinking about people as, you know, employees, but thinking about folks as humans, and really trying to move people forward, because we all have to do things sometimes that we don't agree with, and I don't mean like, ethically, right, like, but, but things that maybe we don't think are the best for a student population, or or or a particular advising unit, but we're asked to kind of do that work, and I think even in those instances, Being as professional as you can, and trying to approach leadership from a kindness and positivity perspective are important, while acknowledging that this is hard and it's not going to be easy. It's a delicate balance, and sometimes I think I'm pretty good at it, and other days, I don't think I'm very good at it at all.

Kevin Thomas  
And I think it's hard for a lot of folks. You and I included that when we pour our energy and time into something we want to see the payoff. Yes, whatever that might look like. Yeah, I think about it from a UCA commitment standpoint, a project that happened on our campus. For folks that don't know about it, it's tuition and fee free for students that our families 100,000 and less. It was pretty transformative for a lot of folks here in Arkansas, but as we're working on this thing for 18 solid months, there was still a likelihood of us saying we can't do this, and that would have been crushing. And so sometimes you're doing the right things. You're putting the work in, you're putting the passion, and you're being the leader. You're looking at the transformative thing, and it doesn't get to pay off. And I've had those examples too, and those are hard, but it's how you rally the people around you, how you work on self care in your own leadership development, the networks you keep, the connections that are there, the conversations you have that I think can be so powerful because we sit in chairs where leadership is hard. Leadership isn't always popular, but leadership is our reality, and the roles that we work in and the roles that many of us work in. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
One of the things I'm really grateful for is having a network of folks. And we can't recommend this enough, right? Having a network of folks, not folks even on your campus, but folks that maybe understand higher education, that you can lean on when things get really, really tough, because I've been pretty fortunate in my career, right in that I've had to make hard decisions as a leader, and I've had to have difficult conversations as a leader, and I've had to let staff go from time to time as a leader. And sometimes when those things get challenging, you have to have folks that you can talk that through. And I feel pretty lucky that I have a great network, including you, Kevin, right, and but other folks in higher ed that I can lean on when it gets hard, they understand. And so I think if you're in one of these spaces where this is difficult work and you don't have anybody to lean on. It's the one thing that's great about Nakata, or any association that you might be involved in, is find those folks that you can lean on when times are difficult, because they do get difficult.

Kevin Thomas  
And I'll say you and I, again, I'm going to push you out with retirement here. You know, we were having a retirement conversation with me the other day. I was and again, for the Illinois State people listening, not soon, right? I don't think he's saying that, but, but it was. It was one of those where we really did talk about the other parts of this, which is taking care of your. Self as a leader, yeah, how many of us are sitting here with 678, weeks of vacation just in your account, but yet you say you don't have time to go on that trip with your family? How many of us are sitting here that say, Oh, I know that. I've got days coming up, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to balance work with that, because it's just too busy. We've said it before. We're gonna say it again. We're all we're all replaceable.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You're irreplaceable, Kevin, but we're all irreplaceable.

Kevin Thomas  
We're all replaceable in our work. But go out and do those adventures in life, I think are really key. And I say that, Brody, because that's going to transition us to our top three.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. Can I fit it? Can I put a bow on it?

Kevin Thomas  
Though, Kevin, put a bow on it before you go to our top like, I always feel like I have to have the last word. Maybe that's not I feel like you have to have the last word. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I was thinking about this like, we will have come back from the administrators Institute, and last year I was very vulnerable in the AI Institute when I talked about happiness and meaning making. Like, you know, I kind of went on this journey in 2013 because I wasn't very happy. And I tell this story about getting my physical life back right, like that, and starting to think that you've figured it out. So I spent a couple years I wasn't sleeping, I was really overweight, I wasn't exercising, I wasn't eating right. And so I took a year so to lose about 60 pounds, and you start to think like you've got it figured out, and you start to make meaning of that, because your your bucket, your physical health bucket, is fixed. And then I had a stroke in the summer of 2015 and all of a sudden I really realized I didn't have it figured out like work was and I didn't have a much stroke because of work stress, but it just got me to recalibrate, like what work is and and I just think that personal care as it relates to being an effective leader, it's it's not just important for you, it's also important for the staff that you lead in this world of higher Education to see like we have to take the time that's afforded us, we have to have hobbies outside of work. We have to make sure that we're doing the things that we need to do to develop our own selves. And having people see that and modeling that is really important. So I totally agree, and it does get to our final topic, Kevin, so that was the bow. It was short and sweet.

Kevin Thomas  
I did my best. Oh, that's a good bow. Our top three, though, yeah. Speaking of getting away from the office and going and doing things, let's go the top three things for us, best road trip destinations or slash experiences.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
This kind of gets at the plans, and the plans are, for me, are based in things that I've now done, that I've thoroughly enjoyed. So the last two years, I've gone to the Saint Pete Grand Prix, and I'm taking my oldest daughter there this late February here, in a few days, in fact, probably that's exciting to see the St Pete Grand Prix. We have good I have a great high school friend and her partner who allows us to stay at their place for free, is kind of a hub. We hang out, we buy them dinner and and, and then we go to the race. And I'm looking forward to having my oldest daughter come there. I've really enjoyed Indy car racing. It's this race is kind of the closest thing I'm going to get to Formula One without paying Formula One prices, which is awesome. I'm going to Maine this summer. Like I've, we've had Rodney mondoor in he's from Maine. I've worked with Beth Higgins, who's from Maine, but I've never been to Maine, and I don't know if that's the best road trip destination, but I'm excited about that. Are you driving to Maine? No, not driving. We're flying. Oh, but it's a road trip, right? Oh, yeah, doggone it. Look. I love, I love a good drive to Bloomington, Indiana. I mean, not many people can say they've lived in two bloomingtons. I'm in Bloomington Illinois now, but we road trip to Bloomington, Indiana quite a bit, and we love it there, right? It's kind of cat and I's home base. We both are proud graduates of Indiana University, hopefully, hopefully national champion football Indiana Hoosiers. I don't know if that's gonna happen or not, but we'll find out.

Kevin Thomas  
Because of our recording timeframe, this is gonna be super awkward if they lose to Miami. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm going to do it anyway, because and then I did put Evansville like you know, I've lived away from my hometown for a long time. Nothing beats driving to where you spent a good chunk of your time. Evansville is not a special place per. A but it's a special place to me, like my kids are still there, my in laws are still there, my mom, a lot of my relatives, my brothers are still there. One of Catherine's sisters are still there. I think that's a great road trip, right? It just is fun to kind of get back to the home base. How about you?

Kevin Thomas  
There are experiences that stand out to me, and I've talked about one of them, I think, before every November going to Gatlinburg, sometimes the journey is as much fun as the trip. Yes, riding with fraternity brothers. When I lived in Bowling Green, it was the Bowling Green crew that would ride to Gatlinburg, but for 20 years, doing road trips from a variety of areas, and talking about life and top five lists, and who would you cut from this and if you couldn't cheer for this team, who would be your team? Like, that's it's fantastic. Like, it's just a great road trip. Braden and I have done summer trips, summer road trips, where we just go someplace for a week or 10 days, and one of them stands out to where we started in Louisville, at the Louisville Slugger Museum and the ALI center, and went up to the Canton Ohio and the NFL Hall of Fame and the hard or the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Niagara Falls and Cooperstown, and ended it in DC on the Fourth of July. I mean, it was just such an unbelievable trip. And then I really love because I've had to drive so many times. I former St Louis season ticket holder for for the Rams when they had a football team there and and going to different games. I love leaving the game experience and having that trip, like you're excited afterwards, or you're down and depressed, and so you're trying to find something to uplift your spirits, whatever it is, I love that, and I think back on NFC Championship games and leaving St Louis just so fired up that you're going to the Super Bowl and and you see people on the road that are doing the same thing, and they're honking their horns, and they're out the window just going crazy, and you can hear in their car that they're listening to like we are the champions, or, you know, things like that. And it's just, it's such a community of things that you don't think of on the road. And I just those journeys were always so tremendous and memorable that they stand out for me in that way, whatever time frame it would have been.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, cat and I have been very spontaneous. We drove out to Colorado, and a couple of times when we did this with the girls, that's a long trip, we would not we would not reserve our hotel before we would go out, and we would just stop wherever the world landed us. And I think that's a lot of fun to kind of just not plan at all and just start driving and and say we're our final destinations this place. But let's see where we stay now, it's only burned us one time, and it didn't really hurt me. We just made the kids sleep on the floor, right? Could get a hotel room where the kids had a bed, but they got over it.

Kevin Thomas  
That's right, they still call you on your birthday. Yeah? They do and say they love you, yes, all right, send us home there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, that's for this episode of the pickup meeting. We hope that your meetings, whether they're pickup or formal or as meaningful as fun as this one, until next time, let's do good and be nice.