Ep. 24 - Tyler Phelps, Washington University in St. Louis

What happens when you mix student success, Disney debates, video game nostalgia, and one of the most respected advising professionals in the field? You get an episode that’s both fun and full of substance. 

Kevin and Brody sit down with Tyler Phelps, Assistant Dean of Advising at Washington University in St. Louis, to unpack what truly helps students thrive: authentic presence, listening beyond the obvious, community among practitioners, and a strengths-based approach when plans fall apart. Tyler talks about the “magic” of advising, how technology can support (but never replace) human connection, and what higher ed owes students in a world that’s side-eyeing the value of a degree. 

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  0:10  
And away we go. Welcome to The Pickup Meeting. I'm Kevin. I'm Brody. Hey, we're going to talk about higher education student success and just some random crap. Yeah, we are, and that the way this goes. It's, it's the way it goes. I mean, we're getting good at it. I will say this is our first spring of recording, and I'm a little nervous, and we talked about this a little bit before the show. It starts to become the tornado season that is in our states that we reside and and so we've had some weather here recently, and I'm like, oh, is the internet going to work? Everything's going to hold up. Are we going to be okay? But here we are. We're still making it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  0:55  
Yeah, you made it. Yeah. We are you in a safe space if a tornado were to come during the recording?

Kevin Thomas  1:03  
No, I mean, in the current space, no, like, if I go down several floors, probably So, but yeah, not currently. So, yeah, yeah. So listen our random topics of just nonsense. I don't think we've really had this conversation, but I'm a Disney adult. I know you're already laughing at me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:29  
I don't really understand what that means. I mean, full disclosure, I mean, I'm a Holiday World kid. I grew up in Indiana, southwestern Indiana, and Holiday World was like 45 minutes from my house, and we went to Holiday World, maybe a king's Island trip if things got real crazy, right?

Kevin Thomas  1:51  
Yeah. Holiday World in Santa Claus, Indiana. Santa Claus Indiana, that might be the greatest town name.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:58  
There is three amazing wooden roller coasters, and then they added a water park, and it's just where we went when we lived away from Indiana and we brought the kids home in the summer. My mom and dad always made sure we went to Holiday World with the kids, and it just kind of had a soft space in my in my heart. I didn't go to Disney World until I was 30 years old.

Kevin Thomas  2:25  
This segment of the show is brought to you by Holiday World. We got coasters, and we give you Pepsi, and no one wants that crap. Free sunscreen, too. Kevin Thomas, oh, and free sunscreen. My bad. I forgot that from the advertisements, free soda, free sunscreen, yeah, and they don't tell you it's like, bad soda. It's Pepsi. Come on.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  2:45  
They had Diet Mountain Dew, and then you could mix it with Gatorade.

Kevin Thomas  2:48  
Yeah, you know where it doesn't have Pepsi, Disney World. You're welcome. You know, you didn't go till you were 30.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  2:55  
I didn't and then we took our kids there when they were about 10 and seven, I think it was in a cotta conference, the annual conference that October. Was it 2010 maybe? Oh, yeah, 2010 Yeah. That was the first time the kids went to Disney World. By that time, they were complaining, right? We're the only kids that have never been to

Kevin Thomas  3:18  
Disney World. My wife and I always said that we were going to just lie to my kid and be like, that's just a commercial. It's like a movie. Like, you know, it's not real. That being said, we go to Disney a lot, probably, if not yearly, every other year.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  3:35  
What do you like about it? Because I like it. It's fun. It just

Kevin Thomas  3:39  
feels peaceful, like in I know that people are gonna think that's crazy if you're not a Disney person, but it's just it feels easy, it feels convenient, it's fun. You're a kid. Like, put me on some rides, put me on the avatar ride, put me on Soarin. And I am just like, grinning ear to ear, biggest smile, having a great time just taking it all in. And then afterwards, I do love this part where it's like, how did they do that? How did they make it right? Like, I want to know the details, and I want to know how to do it all.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:16  
Yeah, I've been to Disney now several times since I was a 30 year old, right? And it is fun, but, man, it's expensive, too. Whoo, it is. It packs a punch.

Kevin Thomas  4:30  
It does. And I will say, three years ago, you and I were at Disney at the same time. Yes, pre the Nakada conference, and our wives both said, No, you can't hang out with your it was like, this is our trip. Yes, Brody can wait. Kevin Can Wait.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:50  
Yes, absolutely. The start the Star Wars stuff that they've added when you walk into the the bad place. Empire place and all those Storm Troopers are sitting there. That's pretty next level.

Kevin Thomas  5:06  
I'm a big Star Wars guy. I know our producer, Matt Markin, will at some point now throw in a graphic that is Star Trek related, because he's more of a Star Trek guy. I'll just say there's no Star Trek land that I'm aware of. So no, take that. Matt Markin, but yeah, no, it's just like the immersion of things. I think the same thing of the Avatar land at night and Star Wars. You know, any point that you're going in, it's just kind of, you feel like a kid. It doesn't get much better.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  5:36  
I thoroughly enjoy Epcot, the food scene there is really fun. The best book I've ever had was in Canada, right? We did that special meal and that you can do, went to Canada and had that steak. Good golly.

Kevin Thomas  5:50  
Steak in Canada. Good. Sign me up. Oh, here it is. Way to go. Matt Markin, for our audio audience, Matt's thrown on a Star Trek versus Star Wars graphic. The answer is, of course, Star Wars, yeah, that steak, which, you know, we're going to talk a little bit about vegetarian lifestyle today. So let's move beyond the steak, and let's focus on the time that we were kids. Listen, you don't know this topic is coming, because we didn't really prep this one, but I will say every time I call you, you're playing Fortnite. So are, like you a video game guy?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  6:27  
No, I'm addicted to Fortnite. And I'm getting good at it.

Kevin Thomas  6:33  
According to whom?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  6:35  
Well, I keep winning zero builds.

Kevin Thomas  6:37  
I don't know what that means. I know you don't, it's okay, the people understand, yeah, never played, ever, and I am a video game guy, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  6:47  
So I didn't grow up with an Atari 2600 I grew up with a Vectrex. I What is that? It was this self contained module, and it had games that were like Atari 2600 games, but it was, it had its own monitor and it had its own controller. It was amazing.

Kevin Thomas  7:07  
I remember having an Atari for just a hot minute and playing Pong. Maybe Yeah, seems right, but for whatever reason video game related, it's when Nintendo came out. Like, that's when it just right, like, you can get to the point where you hear the Super Mario Brothers theme, just like, in your head, and it's like, let's go. And then that evolved into Sonic and then sports game tech, most Super Bowl Come on. Like, I know I'm jumping from Sega to Nintendo here, but like, I I like some video games. I play some f1 video games. Now, the racing game, that's a good time.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  7:45  
Oh, I would love that. Yeah, I had that the first Nintendo system, and I loved Super Mario Brothers. Loved RBI Baseball, the little fat guys. Yeah, the Cardinals were unstoppable. John Tudor and was the pitcher. Danny Cox was the pitcher. And then all those guys were so fast. They didn't hit any home runs, but you can run around the bases as Willie McGee though. Oh, it was so great. So and then when I went to Sega that NHL PA, the hockey game like 93 all I can remember is beating every single resident on my residence hall floor in that game, and just claiming to be the best in the world at that video game, I always played. The Detroit Red Wings. Is who I played.

Kevin Thomas  8:30  
Yeah, that's what's going to ask, because I remember being good at that game, but only when I used the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  8:36  
Yeah, that's who I think in the sample game. That's who played against each other.

Kevin Thomas  8:41  
Yeah, because I was at like, Mario Lemieux and, yeah, like, I think I don't know, I might be dating.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  8:47  
It was Yager and Lemieux and I had eiserman and federoff. Oh, what a great what a great game.

Kevin Thomas  8:54  
Yeah, hockey games are amazing. I don't really understand hockey and all the technology or the the terms and twist of it all. But like, hockey video games are pretty great. Yeah, they were. You know, what else is pretty great. Our guest, well, yes, of course. Our guest today, I'm really excited that we're welcoming Tyler Phelps to the show. Tyler is the assistant dean of advising in the College of Arts and Sciences at Wash U Washington University in St Louis. And honestly, let's, let's rip off this band aid. Tyler and I worked together for seven years, and I tell this story often. I said it a couple weeks ago when I was at the Citadel presenting Tyler Phelps best advisor I've ever seen do it, ever seen do it? And so we're going to talk a little bit today about his path and where he's at and what he's doing and but we're happy to have you here with us.

Tyler Phelps  9:52  
Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. It's nice to be here. I was listening to your chat before, and I'm like, I've got all these art. Facts in my I'm at home in my office in the basement, so I agree, you know, with the Holiday World and Disney piece. So this kind of brings it all together.

Kevin Thomas  10:08  
That is a thermal Disney bomb.

Tyler Phelps  10:11  
It's a Coca Cola thermal detonator from Star Wars. Oh yeah, yeah. And video game, I had an odyssey growing up. I don't know if you've ever heard of that gaming system Odyssey. It was kind of in the same ballpark as yours. Brody, and then, yeah, Cardinal baseball in 1985 RBI Baseball.

Kevin Thomas  10:34  
I knew that was coming well.

Tyler Phelps  10:36  
And see over my over my shoulder, you can't see it off screen. I've got a Willie McGee autograph picture, one of the greatest outfielders of all time. But no that that in the American League, all stars. If you had that team on RBI Baseball, you were just hitting home runs every batter.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  10:53  
So that was a crazy team. It was no doubt that was such a great game. You know, they used to have a national contest in RBI Baseball, and it was in the Summer Chicago. And I, I when I became an adult, when I was living in Northern Illinois, working there from oh four to oh seven, I actually went and and thought about signing up to play, but then I got a little bit nervous.

Tyler Phelps  11:17  
It's fun to be in higher education and see the evolution of video game systems. You know, when I was in undergrad my roommate, it was 94 my roommate had a Super Nintendo, so we played Mario Kart, like, in between class all day long. And then you fast forward, and then I think, like, the PS One came out, and then the PS two. And then by the time I transitioned into my career, I was in housing, and and all the students had Halo they were doing land they would like plug into the networks and play Halo. So I could just hear people with their doors up, up and down the hall, just gaming out. So, yeah, it's, it's been an adventure over the last 30 years.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  11:54  
Yeah, I have a hole from like 93 until now. So everything we've just talked about is like a foreign language to me.

Kevin Thomas  12:03  
Fortnite.

Tyler Phelps  12:05  
Can't do it. Yeah, that and Roblox. I've got both my kids Fortnite, Roblox, so

Kevin Thomas  12:12  
yeah, they might maybe playing against Brody. You don't know.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  12:16  
They're losing if they are.

Kevin Thomas  12:18  
Yes, that's quite the brag point there, you're beating children.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  12:24  
Let's not, let's not edit that, please.

Kevin Thomas  12:30  
Listen, Matt, marked it down right there. This is coming. Hey, so we should talk about higher education. Hey. So this is, this is one of these things where maybe it's aspirational, maybe it's not Assistant Dean of advising. So listen, you're walking into a vegetarian cookout. We're just going to use that for this, this framing. And someone asks you, what do you do? Like? What do you tell them?

Tyler Phelps  12:56  
I support students in all way, shapes and forms. You know, as noted, I worked previously with Kevin. Got my start in advising. It's like almost 20 years ago, and just over the years, it's evolved. Right now, my primary duties are to support undergraduates in the College of Arts and Sciences in Washington University or Wash U and I also assist with, you know, student progress, academic success, retention, just, you know, overall, assisting students with that transition to college, and helping them not only succeed academically, but you know, socially, and helping them get connected with opportunities, whether it be in research, whether it be, you know, vocational in nature, just making sure they're, they're engaged and connected to the resources that we offer across campus. It's what advisors do across the country, across the world. You know, our role is to make sure that students are succeeding, making sure that they're finding what they need and finding their place, and, you know, evolving as students. That's it's wonderful.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  14:03  
You spent 12 years at SIUE. You know, that's a long time, really, long enough to build something What? What did that decade plus teach you about the slow and maybe unglamorous work of actually improving student success at an institution.

Tyler Phelps  14:21  
That's an awesome question. Well, first of all, I had incredible leaders. A director at the time, Cheryl Tucker brought me on. I had worked in housing previously, as I noted, and I took a break from higher ed. Worked in housing. I'd worked in new student programming, all kinds of things. But those weekends, those nights and weekends, I wanted that back. I wanted to have that, you know, with my family. So I got out of higher ed for two years, and then I got married, started my life, and I thought, You know what, I want to go back in, but I've got to figure out another way. You know, at that point, I had a master's degree in Communication Studies so I could teach, you know, as an adjunct. But I was like, You know what? I want to be in the academic side of the table, and I want to be able to engage with students and help them figure out the journey. So I said, it's got to be advising. And lo and behold, a position open at SIUE. I applied. Thankfully, Cheryl saw my background in housing, knew what I could bring to the table. So started there, January 3 of Oh, eight. And over time, as I got into it, you know, the first few years, it was just kind of like riding a bike. You go back, oftentimes, advisors would reflect on their own advising experience, how they were advised as undergrads, what worked, what didn't. So I used a lot of that, no theory, no background in Student Personnel Administration, no background in student development theory. It was just basically my experience and conversation with others. And as time progressed, you know, that's when Kevin came to SIUE, we started collaborating together in his office of retention and student success. And around that time, I started thinking, okay, you know what? I love higher ed. I'm back. I'm going to stay the rest of my life. Might as well go ahead and pursue a doctoral degree, some terminal degree of something. So went over to St Louis University and pursued a degree in higher ed administration. And it was at that time that I actually started reading student development theory and all this other information. I'm like, Wow, this adds so much more to I was nerding out with Aston and Jenny Bloom's appreciative advising all this different stuff with Nakata, and everything started to make more sense. And not only that, I found that, you know, I had tools in the toolbox. Some of them, I didn't know what they were for sure. When I started reading theory, it's like, wow, you know, I can, I can approach this situation differently, or I can connect it with this student in a way I hadn't previously considered. And yeah, so I would say, you know, over that time, not only did I develop professionally, we also brought an incredible team together, many individuals. It was really cool. There was about 10 of us concurrently, all pursuing terminal degrees in one office, and to have that many individuals, and we were all at different institutions. So you would learn things at an institution or in a conversation in a class, and you would bring it back, and we'd sit back at lunch, or we'd have coffee in the morning, and people just, you know, hanging out, and just some really dynamic conversations, some great ideas. And it really was. I told Kevin at one point. I said, you know, I didn't realize how good we had it, you know, really being able to absorb not only the experience, but doing it together, and just seeing, you know, what we're capable that that synergy that's created, I always go back to, you know, like the Chicago Bulls of the 1990s and the latter half, not the first half, the latter half with Rod and everybody. There was some synergy going, I mean, 72 and 10, you talk about musicians. Kevin wrote a piece recently in the academic advising quarterly magazine about artists advising as an art. And I love the Grateful Dead. It's my number. In fact, I got a poster over this shoulder that's Miles Davis and the Grateful Dead 1970 I love Miles Davis. I know that collective improvisation that happens when, not only between professionals practitioners, but between an advisor and a student in the advising appointment, there's some magic that goes on. I know, Brody, you also wrote an article. I'm still plugging horribly here about the 30 minute.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  18:28  
The checks in the mail.

Tyler Phelps  18:30  
So the third, you know, to Matt Markin production, so, but it was the power of the 30 minute meeting and you were talking. In fact, I wrote the quote down because it was so profound. It says the power of the 30 minute meeting has never been about just perfectly constructing four year plans. Here it is. It lies in the quality of our presence we bring to an individual conversation. 

Kevin Thomas  18:54  
Brody did, goodness gracious, bro man, it was magical.

Tyler Phelps  19:00  
And as soon as I read it, I'm like, and there it is. Yeah, there it is. That that is the key to, I think, any conversation you have with a student, it's proactive listening. It's hearing what they say and connecting with them in a way that it builds trust, that they know you're all in to support them. And like I said, that can happen between colleagues. It can happen with administrators. And when it does, it's like bottling lightning, because all of a sudden things start to happen. The 90s bulls, the Grateful Dead. You know, when you get individuals who are passionate about what they do, who are talented and gifted, who have great ideas and who trust sky's the limit. You can do anything.

Kevin Thomas  19:43  
All right, so I have to interject here, when Brody said I'm going to write the 30 minute meeting article, the first thing that came to my mind is the greatest advisor I know, very rarely hit 30 minutes. I. It like, if you are going to write the article, what is the time frame that makes sense? That's a great question.

Tyler Phelps  20:06  
So traditionally, I've always done 30 minute appointments. I think that, you know, it depends on the population. You know my first year students, I love 45 you give me 45 an hour at that point, they're so exhausted listening to me and having a conversation like, Who is this dude? He's like, out there. I don't want to scare him off, but 30 minutes is good. I've also recently at Wash U because of student schedules and challenges, I do offer 15 minutes, but rarely is that something where we're going to sit down and do academic planning. It's more come in. You got something on your mind, you have a quick question, you need me to bend your mind or hook you up with a resource or point you in the right direction. So I do 15 minutes in person, zoom, advising from the cloud, asynchronous, whatever. You know, we talked about meeting the students where they are, but it's also when they are. And you know, if a student needs me to connect with them at a particular hour, that works best. So be it. It's all about like I said at the end of the day, I've had my academic journey. I've had my experience. I'm living a dream. I can't believe I get to do what I do. And so it's all about the students. Whatever they need. Hit me up.

Kevin Thomas  21:18  
The thing, from an experience standpoint, until recently for you, is the three of us on this call, rather, while also being three follically challenged brothers, again, this is becoming a theme of our guests that we associate with bald men. But beyond that, being the case, you're at Wash U right, like this is a premier institution in our country. It does some very exciting things. And I think that we, when we work in public institutions, or, you know, a lot of our experience in regional publics, it's like we don't really have a good gist of an understanding of how it works on that type of campus. So to us and to the audience that may not or that may be in that same boat. Like, how does the switch to private education? Like, does, is it really a difference? Are there things that we think about and we're like, oh, it's probably the same. And you're like, it is not the same. Like, what are those things that stand out to you?

Tyler Phelps  22:14  
That's a great question. And you know, my background, my under I said earlier, you know, my doctoral studies were a slew. That was night class, slew being a Jesuit private university, my background is predominantly public. I mean, as you can see, Eastern Illinois University alum both bachelor's and master's degree. SIUE is a public institution. Worked at Eastern as well public. So I have, you know, 20 plus years in the public environment and so, yeah, when you transfer to a private university and start working there, there are differences. I just completed my fourth year at Wash U so I told a couple of my colleagues, I said, Okay, I've done four years. So that's basically the undergrad journey I've seen, you know, I had students come in as first year students. I've seen them graduate. I've heard the narratives, I've seen the experience. And believe it or not, there are significant similarities. I mean, the students the same obstacles and barriers that students faces in a public institution. Those same obstacles and barriers oftentimes are in a private institution. You know, there may be different traditions, but I think you find that on every campus. I think the biggest thing is just the the number of students who are from everywhere you know, like being in public regional i Many of the students I work with were from that state or within 100 mile radius. I'm now working with students. A majority of my students are not from the St Louis region. They're from the east coast in the way. I've got more students from New York and California than I do from Illinois or Missouri. I have more students who are on f1 and j1 visas than I do you know students in the region as well. So it really is quite dynamic. And it's exciting to hear these students backgrounds, to hear their stories, to hear why they chose to come to the middle of the country, the middle of the United States, to study at Washington University. The overall experience has been enlightening. You know, as someone who studies higher education, my favorite is, we were talking about student development theory. I'm a nerd. My favorite scholar is Alexander Aston. I There was something about Aston when I first got into my doctoral program. I read a couple of, you know, student involvement pieces, and I'm like, Yes, this makes sense. And then I went down the rabbit hole, and one of the things that has really stuck with me and guided my profession is his research review and publications on the environment. And really, you know, when I came to wash you, that was something that I immediately I started collecting artifacts. Because, again, I'm a nerd and I like collecting things. Started collecting artifacts around the university and, you know, really interviewing not only faculty and staff but students, and hearing their narratives and giving, you know, filling in those puzzle pieces, because you know that there are learning. Centers to support with writing and mathematics across the country, there's advising. You know, we have a decentralized model where we have different college, the College of Arts and Sciences, our Olin Business School, our McKelvey School of Engineering and our Sam Fox School of Art and Design. Each one of those four areas have their own advisors. So you'll see some similarities. Like I said, there are similarities with public, there are similarities with private. Yeah, it's, it's a really cool environment at WashU.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  25:27  
Tyler, you've talked a little bit about the magic, right? That happens in those 30 minute sessions, or 15 minute sessions, or hour or 90 minute long sessions. What? What are some of the biggest mistakes advisors make, even well intentioned ones, you think?

Tyler Phelps  25:43  
Oh, that's a great question as well. Brody, I think the greatest mistake is assuming you know why the student is there. You know, oftentimes, like this time of year, many of my appointments, I know why they're coming in they're coming in for the fall semester. To talk about maybe summer options, but I try to encourage, you know, colleagues, even myself, going back into study, try to bottle your bias that Apple K, you know, trying to anything that you think could be going on. Try to put that on the shelf. When the student comes in, you may think, Wow. You know, this is their schedule for the semester. They may be coming in to share with me they're failing. Maybe they're not. Maybe they're coming in to tell you that they're acing their classes. This is what they want to do the rest of their life. So I think the big thing is just, you know, when a student comes in, when you sit down and ask them how they're doing, or ask how the semester is going, really engage and listen, hear what their words, non verbal, speak louder off, you know, sometimes than you know words and to engage with the student and hear that sometimes you got to read between the lines the student is, hey, you know, make sure to even throw resources out there when they're not asking for them. Let them know that you care. And I think sometimes you know if an advisor is having a bad day, or for the advisor, you know, somebody stood them up on an appointment or hasn't replied to an email, sometimes they let that frustration kind of roll over into their their dialog. And a student, a student may not remember, and this is something I know that many have heard before, but a student may not remember what you said, that they'll remember how you made them feel. Yeah, and the last thing we want to do is marginalize our students. So no, I would say just, you know, be genuine with them when they cry. Cry with them when they're celebrating, celebrate with them. And just remember that you are while they're going through this journey. You're an important tool, an important instrument. You're a compass that will help guide them. So yeah, I would say that's the biggest thing, is just remember that everybody has a different story. Everybody has a different experience. You don't know maybe what's going on in their life outside of class. So just be there. You might be the most positive thing they engage with for the day. So support them. Be present.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  27:52  
Tyler, I love that, because it's really what makes advising so exciting and so rewarding, right? Is that every individual encounter has the opportunity to be amazingly different, amazingly different, but equally stunning and fun and exciting, sometimes challenging, but it's really what keeps advisors coming back, I think, to the profession.

Tyler Phelps  28:16  
Oh, absolutely, you know, and it's what when I worked in housing, it was the part that I enjoyed. It's like, I would sit down and have a judicial with a student who was caught, you know, breaking the rules in the building or something, or I just hang out in the lobby and chat with students. And those conversations where I was like, I can't believe I get paid to have conversations with students. And then later on, as I started to learn more about advising practice, and, you know, Kevin was very instrumental in me getting involved in Nakata. He's like, You got to check this out. And you know, I remember going to my first event. It was in Minnesota, 2014 I'd never flown on a plane before. And Kevin's like, I seriously, man, I know I was sheltered. He broke me out of my shell. Yeah, so it's funny. So he made me, he made me go to Minnesota in 2014 he's like, you're going to do this prospective interest group. And I'm like, What do I do? And he goes, You figure it out. And he got me connected with just Staton, who's over at IU and, you know, just took me under a wing. And he's like, okay, you know, this is how we're going to do this. And it really opened my you know, we're checking into the hotel. I just got off a plane, my first flight. I go to the hotel, I'm nerding out. And Kevin's like, watch this. And he goes over to check in, and he's like, it's Charlie Nutt and I was like, he's here for real. And he goes, Yeah, and he introduced me to Charlie NUS, like, this is the coolest day ever. And, you know, fast forward, a few years later, we've got the St Louis annual conference. Kevin's sharing that committee. I get to be a part of that. I get to meet Oscar. You know, we're stuffing bags. I connect with Terry Farr, and I'm connected with Jenny blue. I get my picture taken with Jenny bloom. Like this is, it's like my field of dreams is my heaven. And I got to go to Dublin and present a concurrent session the year after that. And, you know, I got to reconnect with Oscar while we were in Ireland. So. Really, really, Kevin has been a foundational in my professional development. Has always been there to encourage, you know, learning about advising, learning about theory, reading about, you know, Wes haveley and all these old school articles, and just knowing the foundation where we've been, where we're at, and where we could potentially go here in the 21st Century. 

Kevin Thomas  30:23  
Brody, I don't remember the question that we started with there, but whenever the question that is, we should do that more often, because that was a good one for me. I felt like I won on that one.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  30:33  
You did win? I did. I mean, he's got those pictures of Charlie and Jennifer bloom in his office. The picture he sent us that's just on his phone.

Tyler Phelps  30:44  
It is. I mean, there is a level of I could go into an airport, and you could have some, you know, 21st Century athlete. I'm not, you know, I don't watch a lot of sports anymore. You could have athletes in there. I wouldn't know it. But if you had some student development theorist, I'd be like, are you so and so? So? Yeah, I I nerd out on scholarship. I love when, you know, when I read an article or get a chance to connect with somebody, yeah, it's just, it's the coolest thing ever.

Kevin Thomas  31:13  
I think your students can feel that energy. And you were talking about, you know, what is the mistakes that advisors can make? And you started to tell a story there that I think is pertinent, in that, like your approach to every appointment is so personal that, like at the end of the day, when we work down the hall from each other, you would come to me, and it was like you'd read eight books that day, right as you met with eight different students gone through this journey, and all, you were so excited about every one of the books. Well, maybe seven of the eight, like, you probably have, like, a dud in there every once while, right? Like, but like, You did really, like you just enjoyed that. And so when you and I got together recently and just talked about life and higher ed and how things are going at the very end of it, you reached up and you go, Oh, hey, and I recently won advisor of the year at Wash U and I'm like, wait, what, like, this was like, and as we're going off screen, and I'm like, that's great, man, congrats. And then, like, we kind of faded out. And so I know you're gonna say the awards aren't why I do it and I get that, but what does that type of recognition mean to you? And when that happened? Was there a student or a moment that immediately came to mind when you were selected for that?

Tyler Phelps  32:26  
That's great question. Thanks for for acknowledging that. Um, so my career trajectory, you know, I started, as we said, in advising 2008 started to transition into administration. Whenever I was pursuing my doctoral degree, had an opportunity to work in administration. And there came a period where I stepped away and I said, You know what I got to reflect on what comes next? And you know, I was given an opportunity to watch you by a practitioner, Leah Frierson, hired me in the College of Arts and Sciences, and I came in, and the first question she asked, she goes, What are you doing? I was like, What do you mean? She goes, I've looked at your resume. Why are you stepping back into the advising role? And at that point, I think, you know, we were, we were in the pandemic. I think there was some burnout. And I was like, I've got to fall in love with higher ed again. It's what my doctoral degree is in. It's what I do. But there was something missing. And so as I stepped back into advising. It was, it was kind of like learning how to play again, because, like I said, I had advised, I had been an administrator, and then you're going back into a role that you first began. But I'm not the same person. I've changed. I've had different experiences. I, you know, and so to be recognized, it felt good. It's kind of like kind of How Stella Got Her Groove Back. I felt like I maybe I'm I'm finding my voice again. So it's nice to be acknowledged. But again, at the end of the day, my hopes are is that, you know, even if I can get through to once did, there was a little card I used to have hanging in my office. It was the story about the starfish on the beach after the storm, and how the kid was walking along and tossing back in the old man's like, look at all these starfish. You're wasting your time. It doesn't even matter. And the kid picked up, he goes, matter to that one. And that really has been the core of my entire advising philosophy, is that my hopes are, is that I can help be a stone on a path per student to find success. You're talking about video games. Earlier, you remember Legend of Zelda was one of my favorites on the NES and there was that little old, bald guy that had a beard and a robe, and he'd be like, didongo dislikes smoke. You know he like, he give you, like, random little little hints along your path or along your journey. And I kind of feel like that, dude, you know, I'm letting the bear grow out. And when my students come in, you know is my hopes are, even if they don't need me for anything else, they're getting all the development, all the support, either through their peers or other entities throughout campus. My hopes are, is when they come in, I'm at least. Just able to provide the support and the guidance they're needing at that time to get to the next stop, to get to the next level, to get to the next place in their journey. It's not about me, it's about them. And, you know, I'm just, I'm grateful that I have this opportunity in 2026 to sit down with students and really, you know, find out you want to go to med school. Okay, well, let's talk about what that means and what you're going to have to do, or you're thinking about going on and get a graduate degree, or you're thinking about finding an internship, or you don't even know what you want to do yet you're spending all this money on your degree. Let's sit down and have a conversation and figure out what other instruments tools we need to get you connected with to get this get this experience moving. I think that's one of the hardest things in an advisor, is when a student comes in, you could see it in their face. They're stressed, overwhelmed. I want to do this, but it's not working. I've got students that come in like, I'd love to go to medical school, but I can't get through Jen Kim. I can't get through biology or physics. And it's like, okay, let's pivot. Let's go with a strengths based approach. Or let's look at this, and how can we figure out, you know, maybe you don't become a medical doctor, but maybe we find a field where you're still working with patients, or you're working with others and helping them. And I guess that's kind of the you know, I can give an award, I can get recognized, but at the end of the day, it's about helping those students figuring out their purpose, what they need to do while they're there. And I'm just like I said, I'm just a person in the crowd that they get to pass. My hopes are that I get to connect with them.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  36:31  
Hey, Tyler, does the does the different set of pressures, maybe even from five years ago, that are impacting students, mental health costs and the degree is worth? Has that changed your advising practice at all like these new pressures that students are facing?

Tyler Phelps  36:48  
Absolutely no. That's that's so important that we recognize all the obstacles. You know, back in the 90s, I think the it was a totally different world. Even the turn of the millennium was different. Even pre pandemic, the experiences we were having was different. Life is hard right now. For many, life has been hard. And to be able to help these students, you know, if it's not at Wash U if it's not at this other institution, then what are you doing and and, you know, helping them with their vocational purpose, that's one of the the committees that I'm getting to participate on at our college is our literacies for life and career. And you know, we're really looking at vocational pieces. You know, what? What are you doing to prepare, not only with your courses while you're here, but during the summer? How can we make sure you get your return on your investment? What is the best way? You know, if I hear a student, you know, I have to do this, I have to do this. I have to do this. I have to do this. I'm trying to bring it circle it back. How does it connect with the degree? How does it connect with why you're here, and with those students that don't know why? Well, let's figure it. Let's figure that out. Let's figure out what your why is, and then from there we can start building and constructing. But yeah, I mean, when you talk about the financial pressures and everything else, it's prevalent. You know, students, mental health is so important. I always tell my students, you know, they're the most important variable in the entire academic journey. You know, we've got to be mindful of your best interest and making sure that you're you're where you need to be in order to succeed.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  38:14  
That's fantastic.

Kevin Thomas  38:17  
The cutting edge part of your existence in higher education, I will refer dissertation. Oh, man. And kind of how the timing of all that worked, right? Like you referred to it earlier as that cloud advising, the asynchronous advising, you know, and you got to talk timeframe here, you know, we're talking what was that? 2016 2017 Yeah, pre covid, you're having a conversation about essentially sending advising videos to students so that when they came in for the appointment, or if they came in for the appointment, that it could be relational and approach and not focus just in the curriculum, but you were building the relationship Even within the video. And so, like one, I always thought it was super cool, especially because most of us weren't talking about asynchronous anything, right? And but then the evolution that's occurred since then, with AI and advising chat box, predictive analytics, early alert systems. Like, there's so many aspects of this and but so much of what you talk about is relational in approach and relational and building. Like, how are you still embracing technology in what you're doing and still thriving with your students in the work that you do?

Tyler Phelps  39:39  
That's an awesome question. Thank you. Yeah, you know the asynchronous piece came about around 2013 2014 that's when it first started. Brody. What happened was I sitting with Kevin one day, and I was talking about barriers to student success, and I went back to my office, and I sat down and closed my door and for like the rest of the day, five. Five or six hours, I started walking around, not only the building, our office campus, sitting down, and I said, what are the barriers that are students physical what are the physical barriers? You know, there's a desk in the office, just the door frame. Is it wide enough where students who may use a motorized car, are they able to get in? Where is everything located? How tall is the counter? And I just started rattling off barriers. And I'm like, okay, psychosocial barriers, what are some barriers? And I technological barriers. You know, you've got the digital divide. And then it came down to time. Time is also a barrier. You know, where office is open from eight until 430 but students are students beyond those times. So I just started brainstorming and thinking about some things. And one day, I'll never forget, I had a student contact me, called me and said, I work during the day. I don't have the ability to take time off. I'm not taking a vacation day to come in for advising. How can we do this? And I said, Well, we can, you know, I can email you. We can do it for like, what would work best for you? And he was going through some ideas. I said, You know what? Let me make you a video, and I'll email it to you, and let's see. And that was a startup. That was the first video. It was just a few minutes long. I sent it to the guy. He came back, and he goes, that is exactly what I needed. And I thought, Okay, we're on to something. We're on to something. And this is about the time that Snapchat was, I think, is it Snapchat the one that has the ghost, yeah, like, all, all these videos start, like, video communication. And, you know, my background, bachelor's and master's is in communication studies, so interpersonal, public relations all this. So I was really able to apply that piece. And, you know, by 2017 I was like, okay, asynchronous advising via video. That's why I kept coming. And Kevin's like, Dude, you got to think of a better name. And I was like, asynchronous advice via video. You know, that's what it is. And then Cloud advising from the cloud, because that's where we would store, you know, it was behind firewalls. You could put the PDFs, you could put every document, everything out there, and password protected, so the student had access to their information only. And it went well. That's why I went to Dublin to present on asynchronous advising. It was great because I was there and I remember getting done with the presentation, and one person came up to like, I don't get it. I was like, Okay, I you know, like, it just, it's like, video, email. It's like video. And then as soon as the pandemic hit, I started getting emails from other people. Are like, no, no, it makes sense. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  42:19  
They wrote you a letter. 

Tyler Phelps  42:23  
You know, as far as now with technology, like I said, the last few years, I've been kind of resetting and figuring things out. And you know, the use of QR codes is magnificent. You know, whether or not you have them on your campus, you have them for all your curriculum guides, instead of printing out 10,000 pages and having hanging on a wall. Do you just have it where the students can scan it? But then you gotta think, Okay, does the student have a device that they can scan, or do they still need that document? You know, with the current use Zoom is now normal. We're using zoom right now. Students use Zoom. They use other types of video communication, really, as we move forward. I remember when we were in Atlanta for the national conference there that was so another nerd out. I got a chance to connect with George Steele.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  43:08  
One of my dear friends.

Tyler Phelps  43:10  
So he was in a presentation. Kevin's like, go to the front row. So I sat down the front row the whole time. I'm just like, That's George Steele. That's like Virginia Gordon and George Steele, like Ohio State. George Steele, and finally, at the end of the presentation, Kevin made me stand up, walked me over, introduce me, and I didn't know what to say, and I was like, recommendation algorithms like something just totally because at that point, you know, Amazon and Netflix, all these companies were starting to use based on your prior watches, or based on your previous purchase, we recommend you might be interested in this. I thought, what if that ever This was 2016 2017 and I said, What if we started using that in academics with like student success? You find a student is successful in a particular discipline? Do we recommend, you know, based on your success here, maybe this might be an area for you to consider. And then you fast forward, and now we're using AI. There will come a point, I'm sure. And I you know, some of the AI stuff is already talking about, you know, the user interface. There will probably come a point, much like a video game, where students will be able to create their student support network. They will be able to create people all the different engagement who the individuals are. They could even be animals. They may be people, whoever they want to connect with, and they'll be able to seek out guidance and advice, and that that's great. You know, it's going to be very prescriptive in nature, but the one thing that AI has not been able to do, and you know, I know that they're going to, you know, so many students at wash you and other campuses are studying computer science and AI and mathematics. It's almost like, you know, going back to the Grateful Dead, I can listen to the Dead concerts, I can watch the videos, but the live experience you guys are Cardinals fans. I'm sure watching a game versus going to a game. Maybe not in the last few years, because. Yeah, they're not very good, right? But, but going to the game and sitting in the stands and breathing the air and having the experience and hearing the sounds and the conversation, there's something magical about that live experience, just like music, and it's just like advising. The one piece of that dissertation that stood out to me at the end was when students were providing their experience. It was a universal, designed approach and advising and the students remarks were it, I could see its benefit. I could see how it could be useful. However, I really prefer the face to face in time, real conversation. And as soon as they provided that feedback, and we started coding and them, and I'm like, this is, this is a benefit. You know, this video, asynchronous piece. But students really crave that individualized, one on one conversation. They want to have a chat or a dialog about them, about their dreams, their fears, their goals, and, you know, synchronously, asynchronously, whatever that's at the end of the day when we bring it back. You know, that's what it's about those conversations, what's happening in those, I say in those four walls. Charlie net did a podcast years ago with Tony duty from ACPA, and in that podcast, Charlie said, We've got to get rid of this notion that advising can only happen in an office in four walls, and that's the truth, you know. And that was prophetic. That was a decade ago.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  46:24  
So, yeah, I have, I we're getting close to fun, I think. But I have one more serious question, your time has been fun? Well, that's true, I guess. Let's, let's be perfectly clear, I'm enjoying the heck out of myself. No doubt, two thirds of Americans now say a four year degree isn't worth the cost, right? And you've spent your career helping students kind of navigate these waters. What's your response to that number? And what responsibility does higher ed have to earn that investment back?

Tyler Phelps  46:55  
That is a phenomenal question. I think that's something that we're all facing when we talk about higher education, we have to go back. And when I say back, I'm not talking into the 1960s I'm talking back. I'm talking, you know, 1636 Harvard. I'm talking before we even started American higher ed. Higher Ed has always been more about getting a job, and I think we've lost sight of that. Higher Education, the College campus, the environment, is a very unique place where individuals from different backgrounds, different beliefs, different experiences, can come together, live together, Share dialog opinions, and had their minds bent to new ideas. And I think at some point along the time the line we've forgotten about that I am so genuinely invested in higher ed because I know what it gave me. You know, as an undergrad, it took me six years to get my bachelor's degree. Was all over the place with maintenance. Finally figured it out. You know, we have pivoted. In 1960s there was a governor in California, Ronald Reagan, that said, you know, I don't think we should have to pay for students to go to college to find themselves. They need to go figure out how they can be productive in society, get a job in that. And I think that's when we started to see this, this transition to more of the the work. I think the big things when students come in, it's immediately saying, you know, what are your passions, what are your interests, what are your talents? And then taking that and starting to identify long term, one of the questions I asked my my students, on occasion, even my colleagues, I'm like, What's the last job you're ever going to have when you're done, when you retire, when you hang it up and say, I'm no longer working or doing it. What is that job when you have your retirement party? What's the environment? And I said, once you can identify that. Now, let's work our way back to where you are currently. We work our way back to where you are and you turn around, you've just created a path on how to get to that end goal. Now, naturally, there are going to be some obstacles along the way, and you know, hopefully the experience they have in college will educate them on how to navigate those OBS obstacles. But yeah, you know, I always tell students to dream big. If you're going to spend 100 $250,000 on a degree, what are you going to do with that? Do you need the degree? Can you actually pursue the career that you're dreaming of or that you're retiring from without a degree? And if so, I feel it's our jobs as advisors to help those students pivot. You never know what's going to happen. They may start like, you know what, I don't need a four year degree. I'm going to go get an associates, or I'm going to go to tech school. But five years down the road, when they realize they want to go into management, they've got to come back and get a business degree or something like that. Like I said, the the I think, was CS Lewis that said, the task of the modern educators not to tear down job. Angles, but rather to irrigate deserts. Our jobs as advisors to make sure that students are pursuing the correct degree paths, the correct majors, finding those opportunities during the summers or during the school year, those internships, to help build them so that when they do graduate, they are ready to pivot and start that trajectory into their career, or into that line where they'll end up retiring.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  50:24  
That's amazing.

Kevin Thomas  50:25  
I'm going to pivot on this one a little bit too, and not quite go fun yet, although they've all been fun. Tyler, I think one of the things you mentioned earlier, and I would be remiss if we didn't talk about it, because I think our audience faces this, is you had a path in which you said, Listen, I want to be an administrator. Like, that's my goal. I want to do it right. And you've, you've had some leadership lessons along the way of, like, saying, I've been a director, I've been in that role, like, I made a decision to come back to something that felt more at home. Like, you know, what are the things that people don't think about in that moment? In like, what's something our audience could gain from the insight of your experience that could benefit them today?

Tyler Phelps  51:12  
Yeah, that's a great question. So, so just a little rationale, really quick, regarding the transition show, I was pursuing an opportunity. So when I started this journey, you know, I left EIU in 2005 when I got back into advising in 2008 my dream was, maybe I'll go back to Eastern Illinois University one day. Maybe I'll end up there and just spend the rest of my life. And my wife was fully. She was invested. She's like, yes, let's do it. So as we were pivoting into the we're using that were a lot pivot as we were transitioning into the pandemic, the opportunity for a Director of Advising position opened up there, and I was like, this, is it like the universe heard me? And so I applied, and I went to EIU, and during that time, I was working distance for my family. Long story short, my wife was given a promotion with her job, and she ended up earning more than me, and it was one of those moments. It's like, you know, she went to college too. She has dreams. I can't continue doing long distance from my family, you know, I want to be with them. I want to experience life with them. And this, you know, only seeing them on a weekend, or, you know, every other weekend, just wasn't cutting it. So at that point, I had to make a decision, and I decided to walk away from my dream job as an administrator diu. And when you have a dream, as I was telling, you know, just a moment ago, what were you going to retire from? The dream had always been to retire from EIU. That was, I like, I'm going to have a building named after me. I spent my whole life here, like this residence hall, everything, and to to let go of that dream and realize that, you know what, that's not going to happen. You kind of have to step back and think, Well, now what what am I? What am I? What am I going to do? So, you know, I stepped away and I gave myself 100 days to figure it out and figure it out, but I figured out that I got to do something in higher ed like that, like I said earlier, and that's when I connected with Leah at Wash U The one thing I would encourage everyone out there is Think long and hard about what you would do for free. Think long and hard about what brings you joy, what's not work. If you're thinking like, well, I go to work and then I want to do this instead. Maybe you should just do that instead as a full time job. I am grateful. I am blessed to get to work in higher ed, to work with students. So I would tell individuals, advise yourself, reach out to your colleagues and have your colleagues advise you, reconnecting with Kevin during that period and reconnecting with others like Pete Sasso, who's very active in ACPA, NASA scholar, others from, you know, the St Louis region and around just reconnecting them and trying to find out, like, what am I good at? What do I love? What would I do for free, and then dipping your toe in the water and just seeing if that's what works? And like I said, getting back into advising wasn't an easy transition. It took a few years. There were mistakes along the way. You know, I had to go back to doing manual degree audits. I had to learn a whole new student information system. Had a whole new learning management, like, all these different pieces, and I felt our kick. And here I am celebrating my 50th birthday this year, and I'm like, Dude, you're ancient, like, you're an advisor and you're fit. And can an old dog learn new tricks? Absolutely, and so no, I would tell others if you're out there and you're, you're, you're having obstacles and challenges barriers, reach out. I mean, shoot, even if you don't want to reach out to any of your peers or colleagues. My email address is Tyler p@wustl.edu or Dr.Tylerphelps@gmail.com hit me up. We'll have a zoom, maybe some asynchronous.

Kevin Thomas  54:57  
Love it. I think it's time for. Lightning round. All right, Tyler, you've made it through all of the difficult questions, so now it's the really difficult question. Oh man. All right, so at some point in the last decade, you've become a vegetarian, and so what is the top vegetarian dish for you? 

Tyler Phelps  55:24  
Oh, it's a great question there. I don't know the names I'm there are some cauliflower wings that are micro air fryer. So like, if you ever go to Buffalo Wild Wings, or any of the wings places, they have now introduced cauliflower wings. Same breading, it's just cauliflower. That's my go to all day long. That and sweet baby race.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  55:44  
That's great. Willie McGee in five words or fewer.

Kevin Thomas  55:49  
1982 World Series.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  55:56  
I love swings at everything that he swung at everything. Like forget about a watchful eye. He could hit the ball in the if it was over his head. He could hit it if it was in the ground, like a golf ball. Amazing. 

Kevin Thomas  56:15  
What's one book every academic advisor should read? I know this is probably the hardest question of the day. Oh, Kevin, why would you do that?

Tyler Phelps  56:30  
I go back to Virginia Gordon. It's the one that just sticks out for you. Get Virginia Gordon's first academic advising handbook, the first edition.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  56:37  
That's great love. It is there a guilty pleasure TV show?

Tyler Phelps  56:42  
You know, there isn't. I don't watch much TV. I am excited about Ted lasso, though, coming out with a new season, but no, like, I'll watch Okay, so I guess maybe the guys that mine gold up in Alaska, I enjoy that too.

Kevin Thomas  56:58  
Oh, that's fun. Yeah, all right, in this, this, I, this is new to me, and it could be really wrong here, yoga, meditation, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is that a gateway to everything or just part of the norm? No, that.

Tyler Phelps  57:15  
So it yoga found me. I didn't find it meditation. It happened to it's been a decade ago, learning how to become the observer of your thoughts.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  57:27  
First album that you loved that you'd still defend today.

Tyler Phelps  57:33  
De La Soul, three feet high and rising. Oh, 1989

Michael "Brody" Broshears  57:36  
what a great choice, damn Tyler. You brought that? I was thinking about that. I have two, either Paul Simon's Graceland or YouTube's Joshua Tree.

Tyler Phelps  57:47  
Oh, both classic. Yeah, I can, I could talk music with you guys all day long. Yeah, I'm going back. I was 1319, 89 De La Soul.

Kevin Thomas  57:55  
What a great record. I have that on vinyl. Amazing. All right, this may wrap us up. What is one thing that would surprise people most about you.

Tyler Phelps  58:05  
I don't know what surprised...

Kevin Thomas  58:08  
I promise these were not. These are the hardest ones, aren't they?

Tyler Phelps  58:12  
One that surprised them about me. I don't know that I wear multiple pairs of socks.

Kevin Thomas  58:20  
I kind of forgot about that. That's right, yeah, it surprised me.

Tyler Phelps  58:24  
Yeah, in high school I started wearing I bought a pair of shoes. Yeah, growing up, didn't have everything, but bought a pair of shoes that were too big, so I had to double up my socks. In some cases, triple them up just so they fit. They're stuck. Try it, Brody, where at least two pair of socks. Next time you put on a pair, it's like you're walking on pillows.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  58:46  
All right, maybe I'll give that a go.

Kevin Thomas  58:49  
I love it. I can't wait to hear about it. Brody, got your sock wearing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  58:55  
This was fantastic. You're being

Kevin Thomas  58:57  
great, my friend. We appreciate you spending some time with us, and thanks for joining us on the pickup meeting.

Tyler Phelps  59:02  
Forever grateful. Thank you gentlemen.

Kevin Thomas  59:07  
I listen. You know, it's one of these things where sometimes these episodes are going to go a little bit longer. And we got into the questions and and one of the things I always told Tyler is, I said, You got to teach, man, like you got to teach, because hearing the lessons and hearing the stories and hearing the things that he knows about higher education, it just kind of takes me back to him being right down the hall and being able to hear those learnings and musings and insights every day. He just, he's just fantastic.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  59:38  
You know, the one thing that kind of stuck in my head was the importance of community with the advising space. Yeah, listening to him talk about that cohort of folks that were all earning that terminal degree and being able to kind of sit in the theories and sit in the practice is such an under. Rated aspect of the community building that's so important to us being successful in our work. You know, we're kind of writing an article about, you know, the podcast and kind of these weak ties, but when you have people that you're working with on a regular basis, if you really engage them in discussion about the work, it's just really helpful.

Kevin Thomas  1:00:21  
Yeah, and I think back often to walking to the lunch room that the advising team would meet in, and Tyler's not lying, you know, like, there's a lot of things that he's just like, I don't really care. Food is one of them, right? Like, when he switched from our to become a vegetarian, you know, all of a sudden it was like, I don't really like, I'm gonna need some beans today, you know, just like it wasn't, it wasn't anything he cared about, but he cared about the community in that time that he got and so he found ways to still interact, and that was always something really special.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:00:51  
But yeah, so we were using, we were thinking about vegetarianism, like the meals for non vegetarians. You and I are both big, still fans of meat.

Kevin Thomas  1:01:02  
I'm still focused on the steak at the Canadian steak house, and I absolutely but if we had to choose our top three vegetarian meals, what would they be like? That's our top three today. I know. And honestly, I thought this would be hard to come up with three, and it really wasn't, no, I don't think I could become a vegetarian. It's not a choice I'm going to make. But I don't think it would be impossible, because the first three that came to mind for me really quick were like, yeah, those are good. And then as I was walking around today, I'm like, But you know what? Like, I love a veggie pizza, right? Like, you put all those vegetables on it, I'm good. So, like, the things that came to mind for me, mac and cheese, Sign me up. Man. Like, put it in a bowl and let me just scoop it out all day long. Let's go. I'm a big stuffed peppers fan, right? Like, I like peppers a lot. I would eat those. And, like, I think I could do that meal all the time, sure. And then the this is, this is kind of a crazy thing, but like, I go get it. I eat a lot of salads, and I love a good salad. If you get a good salad, I don't need any meat on that thing. I go all day, like, Let's eat some salad. It is delicious. What do you got on your list?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:02:14  
Well, I grew up Catholic, so Fridays, you were no meat. Fridays, right for land, yeah. But you can have fish Brody, I hate fish, so that's kind of limited, remember? I mean, I know, so I would say, so one thing that's a little bit different than what you've mentioned. I mean, I love a good bean burrito, like the Taco Bell. Bean Burrito may be the perfect cheap vegetarian food. It's just amazing. And a lot of Mexican restaurants do great bean burritos, but that's fun. And look peanut butter and jelly. How can you ruin that? Oh, how did I forget you ruined peanut butter and jelly? I mean, it's a perfect vegetarian option for a meat eater.

Kevin Thomas  1:02:58  
Get it uncrustable. This is I'm making the uncrustable, getting uncrustable, and put that thing in the freezer. You're welcome world.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:03:06  
And look plenty of breakfast. I loved a good fried egg sandwich. Yeah, a little cheese on there, some salt and pepper, some butter on that, on the bread. Like, let's go, Gosh dang, it's not even close to lunch, and I am starving. So we did pretty good for a top three there. Yeah, we could make it as vegetarians if we go, good job us. Yeah. But really, Tyler stole the show. Let's be completely honest. All right, folks, we're up against it on time. That's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. Hey, we hope your own meetings, formal or pickup style are as meaningful as fun as this one, until next time, let's do good and be nice.