Ep. 28 - Kyser Lough, University of Georgia

Kevin and Brody are back to chat with Dr. Kyser Lough, Associate Professor and Director of the News Literacy Certificate Program at the University of Georgia's Grady College of Journalism and Mass Communication. Kyser discusses being a photojournalist turned scholar, bringing a rare practitioner's lens to questions about how news images shape public perception, what solutions journalism can provide for civic life, and what it actually means to be an informed news consumer in today's media landscape. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And away we go. Welcome back to the pickup meeting. Please silence your notifications and lower your expectations. We're here. How's it going? Happy Friday, Brody. Happy Friday. You never share with me what your intro, your cold open was gonna be. That was pretty good. Yeah, you know, this is all I've done today in preparation is think about something funny to start this thing off with. Um, audience, we know you're listening on a Wednesday, but today we're recording on a Friday, so we might be a little giddy because it's getting real close to the end of the day. Yeah. And we're excited because the weekend is always something to get excited about, that's for sure. It is, it is, and you know, like it we're here and and you know, recording on a Friday. It looks beautiful outside where I'm at, so I'm excited to get out there and just get my steps in and enjoy a good day. Um, but here we are, and we get to spend some time together, and there's not much better than that. We've got a great guest today, something a little different, I think, which always piques my interest, and I hope it piques our listeners and viewers' interest as well. Absolutely. But we gotta start this, and uh this is kind of off a LinkedIn post that came from a conversation that we had. It's about something yeah, it's about the most boring topic you can really get to, but it is a topic of great passion, which is our email inboxes. You dog. I can't believe you did what you did. Did what? What are you talking about? I turned it into a great LinkedIn post that we're now utilizing for our great podcast. Yeah, yeah. You shamed people like me and kind of self-bragged about you. That's what really happened here. That is not the LinkedIn post was look how great I am. I only have two emails in my inbox. Listen, I I in my counseling appointments, she said find ways to celebrate you. And at that moment, it was I don't think this is what she's talking about, but in that moment, it was the the two emails that were in my inbox that I was really happy it hit that point. How many emails are your in your inbox, Brody? Well, I have my outlook closed so it doesn't ping, right? Yeah, but I think this morning I was at 2,446 emails. Unread or just totally no, not unread, right? Like I hold emails, right? I curate them. My inbox generally is less of a to-do list and more like uh maybe a museum of unresolved intentions. When you say curate, what you're really meaning is hoard, correct? I guess. I never kind of thought about it that way. I I mean I have folders and I put emails into folders. I just was this person that never got rid of emails ever. Like I'll delete responses back and thank yous and those kinds of things. But you know, pre-AI, oftentimes I'd keep those emails as templates that I could send back out or language that I liked. So it was built-in artificial intelligence, like stuff that I'd sent out that looked pretty good, and I'm I'm trying to mimic that so I wouldn't get rid of it. Several years ago on social media, and I couldn't tell you what platform, I posted something about the appropriateness of spacing behind a period. Yes, and the only correct answer is one space. Yes, I agree. Really, for the people that just don't really know me and just happen to have been connected somewhere through a ref post or a share. Because anybody that knows me read the post and said, Oh, that's Kevin just being Kevin, right? But these people were like, Why are you attacking us? Why are you coming at us? I'm I'm really not like I don't care about your inbox that much. I was making a point that like clutter in our life makes it to where we don't we're not able to focus on all the things that we should be able to focus on in our workday. Um, you know, but like man, people got a little fired up. They did. I mean, my inbox, it's like organized chaos. All you have to do is look at my bookshelf behind me, right? To know that I like things a little busier. I think that looks classy behind you. Yeah, it does. But it gets and it's kind of an amalgamation of all my personalities, right? Like there's some sports back there, there's some personal books, there's some professional books, there's some pictures of family. That's the way I kind of think about my email inbox. I can't do the notifications at all, right? Like, and so like on your phone, like I'm gonna assume that you are somebody that when it says you have unread anything, you're okay. Yeah, I don't push. I've took I turn my email notifications off on my phone. Like, it doesn't like I have to hit the button to actually see whether or not I have new emails or not. I I was talking to somebody today, and they said, Well, then I would drive you crazy on my voicemails. And I said, What are you talking about? And they're like, Yeah, I have and they pulled out their phone and they had 329 voicemail push notifications, and my anxiety went through the roof. I mean, I don't need them. Why if why why would you have them? Just get rid of them. I don't really hold that many voicemails on my phone. Usually it's medical related. Like I have a voicemail from my dad before he passed that I haven't gotten rid of, right? To kind of remember his voice. But other than that, I get rid of those babies. I yeah, and I would say if somebody has 329 voicemails, you have people in your life that hate you, right? Like, why are you leaving a voicemail if you don't get a hold hold of them? Like, do a text message. Like, don't leave a voicemail. Say, tried to call you, check back in, send them a text. Those would all be grandparents. All those messages, those 329 messages are from their 80-year-old grandmas. Well, grandma hates them. You know, speaking of hate, we have I don't know where this is gonna go. I think we both, you and I, have a love-hate relationship with the news. Yeah, we do. So, like what does your actual news diet look like right now? Well, I I have lots of different ways that I do it. I pretty much listen to the daily when I walk at lunchtime, right? The New York Times daily podcast. Okay. And, you know, I like my dread professionally narrated, I guess. And I I have to be careful. I feel like they do a pretty good job of balancing the week out with things that depress me immensely and things that I might find interesting, right? So usually it's like a three-two split. Usually there are a couple episodes each week that are, you know, hey, here's the founder of Bitcoin. Now, that's kind of depressing too. And but there was uh, you know, uh, if you focus on the news all the time, yeah, I'm a big YouTube guy right now. I love PBS's news hour that runs from five to six. And usually the next day I'll hit like the segments of that show that look really interesting to me or that I want to be informed about. You know, and I love Jon Stewart and the Daily Show is the way I kind of stay sane, right? The comedy with the misery, right? If things aren't going or looking the way I want them to look, I like that satire. It's a lot of fun. And then punditry-wise, maybe Bill Maher from time to time. I mean, that guy's crazy. And but but I love when he has other folks on the show, right? Those round tables, I think, are really interesting. Lots of he he he's not very formulaic as to who he brings on to the show, so you never know what you're gonna get. That that's kind of my and then I do do a little doom scrolling, and usually probably when I'm supposed to be sleeping. Yeah, I was wondering if that one was gonna sneak in or if you've you've gotten rid of that one from the Twitter. Hold on, wait for it. Now called X uh system of things, like you still are doing the scrolling that it makes me wonder how you're doing when you do it. Oh, it's it's pretty dreadful to be fair. Yeah. Listen, I jumped off Twitter when Elon started being Elon and have not looked back, which is probably healthy for me and unhealthy for you. Yeah, a little threads more, which I don't know is any better. How how about you, Kevin? Like, we we don't I haven't really kind of poked and prodded about this with you. Like, what's your what's your uh protocol? Like, how are you staying up to date? Yeah, so I am still uh in the morning uh before getting up, I will quickly glance at Politico and MSNBC and CNN and make sure that the world is still here. Yeah. Um, that's usually mark. That was a question mark early this week. I that's what I saw, but I I would say I don't dive in a lot deeper than that. And then uh as I'm getting ready in the morning, most mornings, I will turn on uh uh Good Morning America on on ABC and listen to George and Robin tell me about all the things that are happening in the world.

unknown 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

And outside of those things that happen pretty early, I might check back in if I can sense that people are off on a certain day, like that the stress of the world has come down on them. And I'm like, well, what is it work or is it the world? And and so I I will look to see if it's the world and then uh and do a quick check-in, but I don't do the doomsday scrolling. Uh I will say on TikTok, Jon Stewart makes me laugh a lot. And there was a recent one on what is the country singer Lee Bryce talking about how hard it is to be a country person right now, and it's like what we doing here, yeah. Um, but like other than that, I don't uh I don't really indulge in that way. And and since I got off of other social media several years ago, I have found that I am a happier person, not just being ingrained in the the world that's happening. Yeah, I suspect you are happier. Hey, we we should put a uh kind of a shout-out for local news. You know, when I was in Evansville, I really enjoyed the morning local news. Like I I kind of got into that. I haven't been able to find a channel here that's just blooming to normal, so it's been a little tougher. I I listen to public radio and sometimes we'll get and you do get that local flair there, but there isn't a news team that's doing good local news in the morning, at least related to blooming to normal. Like there's a good Peoria station and and a couple of, but but it's it's not none of it's really based out of blooming to normal. So, but I do like make some good local news too. I think it's good to keep up to date there as well. Well, and that's why I'm really excited about our conversation today. And so I think it's important we welcome our guest on so that our our audience doesn't just have to hear us. Yeah, it's not a just us episode, gang. It's not a just us episode. You didn't walk into the wrong Wednesday, but I am super pumped today uh to welcome to the pickup meeting Dr. Kaiser Lowe. He is the uh associate professor of journalism and director of news literacy certificate program at the Grady College of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of Georgia. Holy long title through the business card. Um I have to state this from the very beginning. Uh Kaiser and I have known each other for over 25 years. Yes, audience, I'm that old. Um, and uh and and we used to live in the same residence hall. Uh, I believe, Kaiser, you were a Hester hot boy. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, we were on the same floor for a while, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah. We brody, we used to have these hats that were just Murray State hats, and then we like we we put things on them to essentially signify that we were the Hester guys. Like we we were these folks. And and so uh Kaiser and I spent a lot of time together in college and and then um spent a lot of time together as we both worked for the Murray State News uh at Murray State University. And since then, uh Kaiser has gone on to uh earn his doctorate from uh University of Texas uh and uh is now uh at the University of Georgia and and and so we're really excited to have you on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Hey, go ahead, Kaiser.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

No, I was gonna say thanks. I'm really happy to check this off of my museum of unresolved intentions.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Um love it, love it. Listen, we had to get in some Hester stuff and talk about the good old days, right? And audience, hold on, because this is a flashback in some ways to the Rodney Mondor episode where we talked about his weird thing of being a mascot. Kaiser also used to be a mascot that would terrorize me. And when I told you all the story in the Rodney episode about being terrorized by a mascot, it was this SOB. I'm gonna say it right here. This guy was who's terrorizing me in that in that episode. How did that play out?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Oh, I need to listen to that. Um well, and and you know, I have not listened to it, so I don't know how you told the story, but I will I will gladly tell it as I love telling uh anyone um because this usually is one of my favorite stories to tell when I talk about being a mascot, uh, because Dunker, the Murray State racer, uh, is a horse, and uh it's a secret during the school year who the mascot is. And so my freshman year of college, I'm uh Dunker the mascot, and Kevin made the mistake one day uh on the hallway of just I don't know how it came up, but he mentioned he hates mascots.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

The worst.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

And it was like You need help, Kevin. From but from that moment on, and I I mean this was this was more basketball season, every single game. If I could find him, I would find him. And he would be sitting in the middle of the student section, not not on the aisles. He would, I'm assuming intentionally, place himself as far away from the walkways as possible. And I would I mean, you're a mascot, you can do whatever you want. I would stumble, climb over people, I would get to him however I could. I would take his hat, I would throw it, I would wear it, I would sit on him, I would do everything I could, and he would just sit there and fume and just look at me, having no idea. And then I feel like, you know, the next week he'd be sitting there in the hall just going on about why was Dunker messing with me? Why does Dunker always mess with me? And I'm just so I couldn't wait for the big reveal at the end of the I knew I had to kind of pack my bags and and be on my way after that happened because I knew he would come for me. But that was one of my I mean you get to hide behind the anonymity of the mask, it was so much fun, and messing with Kevin was probably in the top three like mascot moments.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

I think it has to be NCAA tournaments, buzzer beaters, messing with Kevin. That was it. Sounds fantastic, you know. Kevin, my five and six-year-old uh daughter. Uh, I remember going to Waterloo Bucks games when we were little kids. Like, so my daughter might have been four years old that last summer that I was there, and she was terrified of the Buck mascot, but she was four, Kevin. Four. She got over it. There was on campus yesterday, they were doing a blood drive, and so some Yahoo was dressed up in a blood mascot costume, and I was in my director of admissions office, and I saw it, and I'm like, I'm staying with you for a little bit, like, I'm not going there. Like, who knows what creeps in that thing? I wouldn't even go outside. We gotta get you some professional help there. I will add that to our next uh counseling meeting to just have a conversation about fears and mascots. But in all seriousness, uh yeah, we have work to do. Yeah, we've we've hit the dunker part of this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Oh, I thought that was the whole I thought that's what we were talking about for the whole hour.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

We can do that. We can do that for that.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

I mean, I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Hey, so we're both Murray State grads. Uh, and you know, you did uh your undergrad and master's there, I believe, correct? And uh and spent a lot of time in in Murray KY. Um, and then you know, you you kind of worked your way around and did some other things for a while before you decided to pursue your doctorate. What was it about working in those years that brought you back to higher ed? And like what made you really start to focus where you were gonna put your research and and what you do now?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, it's I don't know, it it's one of those that if you could go back and tell myself at many points in my life where I'd be now, uh, I would absolutely laugh at me because this was never on my radar. Um being out in the world working, it was I I enjoyed it. I enjoyed working in journalism, I worked in public relations. And uh I mean, truthfully, what got me back into this was I started a master's degree and got a job that did tuition reimbursement. So it would as long as I got an A, I would get reimbursed 100% of the like tuition fees, which was wonderful. It was the first time I ever got straight A's, uh now that I actually had a you know a reason to. Um and it uh it was actually a heart attack. The uh the advisor for the Murray State News and uh faculty member at Murray State had a massive heart attack, survived, uh, but he was out of commission for a while. And the department had at the time called me. I was still doing my master's. Uh he didn't ask me, he told me. Uh you will be the interim advisor of the paper, and you need to finish uh teaching his capstone uh newspaper design class. Uh I'd thought about academia, maybe. It was never really again on my radar. Uh, but man, the moment I stepped in the newsroom, the moment I stepped in the classroom, you know, I've I've written stories, I've published photos, I've done all this creative work over my life, but this is my first time being a part of like other people's process of learning how to do that and doing that. And that was really addicting. It was it was a really cool feeling to see the work that the students were putting out in the paper, um, and knowing that they were either doing that uh, you know, because of the help I was giving them, in spite of the help I was giving them, uh, or you know, even just the fact that I was there um around it was really, really cool. And so I said, well, this is what I want to do. And it it tied in a lot to, I don't know, it activated a lot of things I hadn't thought about in my own undergrad um because I still, I don't know, I know y'all are advisors, and so I shouldn't be admitting things like this, but like I was 0.01 GPA points away from academic uh probation at Murray State. I was a terrible student. I had to take classes two, maybe three times. Um I like when I retook sociology, uh, the the second time I overslept uh the day of the first exam. And so I showed up at the end of class and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And he said, Well, I'm teaching the same class again, like now, just put the correct time on the test, and the TA will make sure it gets sorted. I was like, Oh, thank you so much, thank you so much. So not only did I not go to class after that, since I'd already taken the class and had the notes for the exam, but on exam days, I wouldn't even go take my exam when I was supposed to. I would just sleep in intentionally and go to the later class. Um, that's how that's that's what school was for me, you know? And so then here I'm getting ready to get kicked to get kicked out of school, uh, kind of having that that pivotal moment where it's like, all right, you need to figure things out. And it was uh Joe Hedges, the same person who uh whose class I took over later, he was my academic advisor, and I was also working at the newspaper, and I went to him halfway through the school year and I said, Joe, I quit. I'm quitting journalism, I'm quitting the paper. Uh like this is not working out for me. And uh so while I'm putting you in this like awkward position, also I need your help because I don't know what to do. And he absolutely should have kicked me out of his office. He should have said, go figure it out on your own. Like, I need to go figure out who to replace you. Uh but this man sat down and said, Okay, let's figure this out. And he said, you know, you've I noticed that you really like uh the human interest stories, the college life stuff. I think you should try public relations because you can transfer your classes over. Um, you know, it's it just seems like it would be more, you know, in your area of interest. And it's like who is this man that like like recognized this about? Me because he was absolutely right. I went to public relations. I loved it. Um, happy to be back in journalism. But it was like looking back, I was like, oh my gosh, like he saw me, he knew me, he took the time to care. And between him and Cindy Clemson, who um was over the um, I don't, I can't remember what it was called, learn students, the student support center, student learning disabilities, etc. Uh, she helped me figure a lot of things out about how I learned, how I learned best, got me in tutoring, uh, had me take her class on like learning disorders and like teaching. Uh and like, I mean, I still didn't love school, but I was still in school.

unknown 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

And so when I got to like take over for Joe, it was like, oh my gosh, now now's here's here's my chance to like, I don't know, not give back, but try and be that for someone else who needs someone who like sees the potential and sees that they're not living up to the potential. And you know, I'm I'm still working on how to navigate that, but you know, the like not letting letting them fail, letting them fail in this like safe environment where they can learn from it and grow. Um you know, and it was faculty like that, that I was just like, okay, this this is what I is absolutely what I want to do. Um, but I was an adjunct then, and um, I don't think adjunct pay has gotten any better. Um it has not.

unknown 23:35

No.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Uh so I was like, well, I want to do this full time, and um, I don't know anything about like education, but I see these people here that have this tenure thing, and it seems like they're you know, they're set. Um, I think I want this tenure thing, and so I need this PhD thing. So I said, okay, I'm gonna go do one of those.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

That's great. You know, I I think the theme of our podcast when when we bring guests on is the impact that one of those conversations has on the and it's kind of the momentum point that moves folks forward. And so I just really appreciate you kind of sharing that origin story. I want to move to kind of the work, right? The things that you've done, because it's really impressive, right? You've worked across photojournalism, reporting, public relations, which are all very different ways of telling stories. How did moving between those shapes, those areas maybe change how you think about storytelling now, and what journalism is actually for?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Totally. It, you know, I worked for a small town newspaper, I was doing all the things from writing stories to photography to answering the phone when somebody missed a delivery, um, obituaries, um, all of it. And that was my first real, I guess, understanding and appreciation of what local news can do for a community. Uh, before then, I like, you know, many students thought of news as the national and international thing, and I didn't really care about what was going on in my community. But then I'm realizing, you know, the the mayor of our small town was the one that was the tie-breaking vote to decide uh if we were going to be able to sell uh beer and wine in the city. Like that's a major, a major impact on like where I live. And so it matters who I vote for mayor, and it matters that I understand what their platforms are and and what they're about and what they're doing. And you know, there were maybe two outlets in town covering that. And you know, beyond that, it was being able to cover stuff and then like see those people in the community later and be telling I don't know, just get getting to talk to them about their lives and the the joy of seeing themselves in the paper and having these moments of their life recorded. Um it just the the feature aspect of that always appealed to me. Um and that's that was a huge learning experience. And then going over into public relations, it was I I think of it a lot like it was twofold. One, it was really freeing because I suddenly could focus more on the storytelling aspects of it without like having all the access. Like I had access to my sources, I didn't have to like fight for access because we're all on the same team, so we're working together to do this. Uh, but then at the same time, it was also um like I compare it to, and I'm I'm not a baseball person, but you know, like you know, they put the weights on the bats and they swing the bats with the weights on them and then they knock the weights off.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Hold on, bro, Brodie will like this one. Donuts. Donuts, yeah, that's a paper for him. They're called donuts, Kaiser.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I'm on board with that, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Um Yes, please, basically.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

So I was doing I was doing marketing for a hospital. Um, so yeah, there's our donuts. Um, but I was in healthcare marketing, and um there were there were a lot of restrictions there that I didn't think about going into it that I had to learn um about that I consider to be my uh donuts. Um the example I love is that uh you know that was around the time Domino's did their big campaign where uh they had like chefs or their their employees like reading reviews of their pizza. Um and they were like, you know, it tastes like cardboard, it's awful. And then like, you know, it was the motivational commercial, the chefs being like, All right, we can do better, like announcing Domino's new, all the and I thought Domino's was I mean, once they like I tried it after they rolled out the new menu or whatever, and it was really good. It was good. I was sitting in my boss's office one day and I was like, man, you know, that was just so refreshing. Like, I like I love this like honesty kind of campaign of like we can do better and like we're here for you and all this stuff. And she was like, I'm gonna stop you right there because like that's fine for you know a pizza place, but you know, it we're uh we're a medical center, like this is people's lives, and you know, we we do have that responsibility, but it's a much heavier like we can still tell these stories and and do this and market in this, like in this way, but we have to be like responsible and respectful of the fact like these are people's lives, and and that was the donut for me. It was like, oh okay, so how do I navigate this newfound freedom of being able to tell stories while also like understanding what we should and shouldn't do and can and can't do, and it's not you know, it's sort of built into a lot of the sort of ethical behaviors of it's not just what you have a right to do, but what is right to do. Uh, and I learned so much more than I expected uh in that in that environment.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

That's awesome. So correct me when I get a term wrong here, right? Because I'm jumping into your world here, some, but you've done extensive peer-reviewed work on solutions journalism, maybe more than anybody else. Like you it you've done a lot. And so for people hearing that term for the first time, what is it? And why does that distinction actually matter to how people experience the news? And if there's a third part to this question, can you help Brody with his issues about the news?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Well, yes. Maybe we'll see. The probably not. Well, the solution, the solutions journalism part, that that's a lot of it is what kept me. It was sort of my like next act in in my journey that that got me through the PhD. Um, and so before I get to the definition, let me make a short story long. Um you know, I I applied to PhD programs not knowing what research was. Uh, University of Texas gave me a chance because they said you've got 10 years of experience. We can teach you the research, it'll be a steep learning curve. Uh, because I was a non-thesis master student, um, didn't know statistics, didn't know anything. Like, we can teach you that part, but it's important that you're coming in with like this lived experience to help inform like the questions you'll be asking. And in our like introductory class, we had to pick a research topic, and I was I was all over the place. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I was falling into that trap that you know students get into where they do what they think they're supposed to do or what everyone's doing. Yeah. Um, and for that it was like, this is fall of 2015, so it's it's Trump tweets and political journalism and all this stuff. And I I had no interest in researching that, but I was like, well, that's what I have to do because that's what everyone's doing. If I want to get a job, I have to do that and stressing out. And then here comes a Murray State connection. Uh Holly Wise worked on the yearbook at Murray State when I was there. And we hadn't spoken in, I don't know, 10 years at least, but she was living in Austin. And so I'd reached out to just say, hey, uh, anybody I knew that lived in Austin, like, let's get coffee, like, tell me your favorite places to eat, like, let's catch up. And so I'm sitting down to talk with Holly, and I'm saying, Well, what are you up to? And she said, I'm working for the Solutions Journalism Network. And that just, I mean, the name, I was like, okay, what's that? So she starts telling me about it. And just like the feature reporting and kind of activated the like, this is this is what I care about. When she started telling me about solutions journalism, it just clicked. And essentially what it is, it's not anything new. It's just trying to put a label on one aspect of reporting that has kind of been left behind for various reasons. And it's essentially saying, yes, we report on the problems, we uncover problems, we uh cover problems when there are crises, we are there to document that. That is a huge and important part of journalism. But we often just stop there and move on to the next thing. And so, you know, if you look at it cumulatively, then it's just a lot of coverage of what's going wrong in the world. And that's one-sided, and that's kind of reductive to what humanity is all about because humanity, like we we can be problem solvers. Um, solutions journalism says report on the problems, but also report on what people are doing about it. And it's not advocacy, you're not advocating for it, it's not proposing solutions, it can't be an idea, it has to be what's actually being implemented, because then journalists are using the same rigorous techniques that they use in investigative reporting in their solutions coverage. So it has to be a well-defined problem and there has to be something that's happening, there has to be evidence that it's working. There have to be limitations because there's like no perfect solution. And so it's this really like grounded approach to okay, we know that there's this problem in our community. Here's what this group or this person or this group of people are doing about it. Here's where it's working, here's where it's not working, here's what a similar community that would be facing this problem could learn from this.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Kaiser, are there good examples out there of where this is happening? Like, is there something that folks who maybe are listening or watching this podcast would say, oh, that's a great example of this?

SPEAKER_00 33:44

A lot of it right now is in climate coverage, um, sort of broadly, uh, because it's thinking about uh the problems we're facing with the environment. And, you know, we can we can doom scroll uh about all of it, but you know, there are people out there that are trying things, that are trying to do things, that are, you know, finding ways that work. Um, one of my favorites uh from a visual perspective, um, we think about uh like like roadkill and traffic fatalities in like rural areas where you have roads and wildlife. You know, we are building a road through the middle of their home. Uh, and so they're crossing the roads. There's a lot of, I mean, it causes trouble for the wildlife. It causes trouble obviously for uh people that are driving. And so there are places that are implementing overpasses and underpasses for wildlife. They're just building tunnels over and under the roads. And, you know, it's a it's a simple solution, but it's something that you can have trail cameras out and you can kind of track. Is this actually helping? Are the animals using this? Is this reducing traffic fatality or traffic fatalities, traffic accidents, things like that? Um, and and I think that has the same kind of balancing cumulative effect that like even if we're not aware of it, if we're seeing stories of what people are doing about it, shouldn't that help us feel better about our place in the world and our ability to like do something? Yeah. Um so the climate is a big place, but um a lot of it is really community-based. So, what are the the major problems a community is facing and hopefully looking at stories about what's being done there? The uh Solutions Journalism Network is a nonprofit organization that um has largely like organized a lot of the professional uh definitions of this and tried to get it into newsrooms. They have a story tracker on their website where you can go and you can search by topic, by news outlet, um, you can look for student like uh undergrad work uh reporting on this. Uh there's there's I mean it's a massive database uh where they've been trying to kind of collect exemplars of this. Um that's always a good place to start.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

I I gotta figure, uh Kaiser, when you're talking about this type of work, that for the students that are on our college campus nowadays, that's gotta be something that they just they love, right? Because it's not the the negative aspects of what people think of when you talk about journalism. And so I I know that you uh are are are lead within the Solutions Journalism Hub at Georgia. And so for your students, like what are you seeing in their interactions? Like, how do they feel about this type of work? And and does it open eyes or are they aware that this is a thing? Like, how does that how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

For a lot of them, it's it's similar to the process I had. As soon as I heard about it, it just made sense and I was like, oh, this is what I was looking for. Um, I wish I had this in my undergrad because then maybe I wouldn't have you know rage quit journalism halfway through the school year. Um, because part of it was it really was a rage quit. I mean, I was part of it was just burnout on the hard news part of it, you know. I wasn't in the feature section anymore. I was laying out the front page and it was but um you know, seeing that aha moment in some students' eyes, because we are all jaded um by the constant news cycle. And I think social media and digital convergence has done a lot of wonderful things, but when you know everything is compressed into one feed and you're scrolling through, and here's you know, here's the new pin my buddy Kevin just got, here's uh what my friend you know across the world is eating for lunch, and you know, here's a story about like the impending you know doom of our uh our world, it's like you know, we're we're used to selecting when we're gonna see those things. And when we see it all sort of smashed together, like that can kind of assault us and confront us in ways that we're not ready for. And you know, seeing that burnout, especially in you know, the the younger generations that are so much more engaged uh online. This is one of those things that it for it's not, you know, not everyone is like, aha, this is it, but the ones that really latch on to it, um, it's it's really a powerful moment, I think, for them. Um and that's the same way for you know editors and existing journalists and publishers. And I do have to, you know, caveat this because limitations are a big part of solutions journalism. I think solutions journalism itself has a lot of limitations. Um, and a lot of it is just the easier said than done part of it. Uh, it's so easy to find problems. Um, solutions, it takes time to investigate, takes resources, money, uh, finding the limitations, all of that. Like it's not an easy thing to do. And when there's constant news happening, it's hard to devote time to that type of reporting. So it is definitely not a silver bullet kind of solution to things. And it's, you know, often once you try and put it into practice, that's where it's like, oh, this is like we've worked with newsrooms before that have wanted to do like a full push for solutions, and they're very ambitious, and then you know, we get around to it, and you know, they've they've published a handful of stories because that's just that's just how it played out. Um but I did a study recently where uh we interviewed journalists who had taken a solutions class or uh had learned about it when they were in their undergrad, however long ago that had been. Um, and we uh interviewed them and asked them about what they remember learning then versus now, and you know, are they able to put it into practice? You know, what are the realities of it? Um, have has it changed how they like define it? And one of the biggest things that I took away from that was the students that are the former students that said they don't they don't practice solutions journalism, they're not able to, but what they did in their undergrad just helped them be a better reporter, period. It helps them think about the world in a different way, think about their work in a different way. That's great. And I'm like, yeah, okay, that's that's enough for me. You know, like we can at least have that, then that's that's helping us.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Hey Kaiser, let's get to the visual communication part of this, right? Because that's a a real interest and an access point that certainly impacts news and journalism. When you look at the news, right, you're seeing something maybe very different than most people. What are you noticing in images that the average viewer just isn't trained to see?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

I I think it's I think with a lot of it is just the awareness of of how we see that um that can sometimes be so different. Um this like we know images are important, but we don't we don't really we think of them as uh wallpaper sometimes too much. Um we just need pretty images. And uh one of the things that I'm always working on with my students is that you know good photojournalism, good visual journalism should be windows, not wallpaper. Yeah, you used to call them windows, not window dressings, but nobody knows what a window dressing is. Um I just got a lot of blank stares.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Everybody knows what wallpaper is. If you've had to take wallpaper off of a wall, you you understand.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

But you know, it's sometimes visuals do just need to serve a pretty purpose, and it's you know, they're there to you know be pretty. Uh, but when we just relegate it to that, we're missing this huge opportunity to share a deeper window into the story, and the fact that people look at pictures, like images are the first thing people look at on a screen. Uh it that's what draws our attention. And then the way that our brain processes visual information, we're processing it before we even realize what we're looking at. Uh, because our brain is trying very quickly to figure out what is it, where is it, is it gonna hurt me? Um, you know, all those like core uh now we're getting into like brain biology and all that kind of stuff that I do not know enough about, but it's one of those like all the like subconscious or unconscious reactions, emotional responses we're having to things that we don't think about, and that sets the tone for how we're going to you know interpret the rest of the article or the rest of the page. Takes a while to understand what we're reading, uh, but you see a picture, you are immediately processing that. And there's some really good experimental studies out there. We did uh one or two with solutions journalism where we would start with a big picture of the problem, uh, and then the story would be a solution story, because there's an argument that, you know, a picture of the problem will very quickly establish this is what the problem is. Now let's talk about what people are doing about it. But we saw overwhelmingly like negative emotion in the people that saw the problem picture with the solution story because that set the tone that this is something negative. Um, and you get into like ethics and uh representation and responsibility. If you think about the way somebody is portrayed in an image, the image that is chosen to run along with the story, what message is that sending to the audience about who this person is? Or, you know, is it activating inherent biases and stereotypes in their minds when they're looking at this? Um, images are never innocent. They're constructed through the photographer, through the people in the photo, through the people selecting the photo. And if we just, you know, relegate it to, oh, we need a picture for this, let's just grab something off of their Facebook page or grab something from stock photography, we're forgetting the fact that that is still sending that signal to our reader. Um, so a lot of the conversation in the class is about trying to read more into those images and understand what it is that what potential messages could be being sent to the viewers.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah. And the other part of that, right, is like when you're selecting these images and doing these things that what is the motivating factor of the places you're working for, which is to get. Clicks. And so it's like what image is really important? And it's the one that's going to get people to click, whether it's the right or the wrong image to be there. And that that's a whole other layer, which I think kind of leads me to how do you teach skepticism in how you view things and how you work in the media without pushing people into full-on cynicism where they just check out? And if you have the answer to this, you're probably the best professor and you should just do that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Twofold. One, I was used to like writing a story and it was publishing that day. And now with like the academic journal process, you know, of two years before your your article's out there. But it's also, I mean, you know, we we all had our jaded professors that had been out of the profession for so long that they were not completely detached from reality, but it felt like it at least when we would, you know, when they would stand up there and lecture about what we should and shouldn't be doing. And it's like, well, how long ago were you doing that? Like, how's the world different now? And this constant fear that, you know, I'm trying to stay away from being that jaded professor, but while still recognizing there's a big difference in, you know, our discussion in the classroom in my journalism, ethics and diversity class on um, you know, controversial images and about um, you know, breaking news and how it's more important to be right than to be first. And so you need to stop and verify is this true before posting it, even if you know your competitors are out there. And like, yeah, we can stand up there and talk about it, but then you know, when you've got a boss like breathing down your neck saying, like, you're fired if you don't publish this now because we need to be first, we need the clicks, we need to, you know, we need to stay ahead of our competition, we need to keep our doors open, you know, it it's it's a lot harder. Um, and that's that's something that you can you can at least try and prepare them for uh in in the classroom and that they things that they know they might be confronted with, that they know that they might encounter, and trying to help, I don't know, get the the critical thinking mindset there where they know when it is time to stand up for what's right. Um and yeah. I wish I had the answers.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

And I I think that pressure's getting harder, right? Like it's everywhere, right? Because trust is low, local news is shrinking.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

What?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

AI what AI is here, right? Kind of changing that game too. Wait, can you define AI for Kaiser? He hasn't he hasn't heard this one.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Where I need we need to roll back trust in the media is shrinking.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Where where does that leave the parts of journalism you care most about, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Like Yeah, I mean the good thing is is we're always gonna need information. We're always going to need we have this like desire to know what's going on. We have this instinct, uh, this awareness instinct as humans to know what's happening. Um, you know, I think journalism can lose some of the ego uh and you know recognize that it might not always be the source for that. Um, you know, I love the the question of where are people going to get their information because you know, a Facebook group in a community that somebody started just to share information about what's going on, that's journalism. That's information sharing. You know, uh the First Amendment gives us this beautiful freedom of the press that means anyone can do journalism. Um it also means that anyone can do journalism, but you know, it's it's beautiful in that sense that that that we can we can info seek and we can info share. And the the scary thing is how you know the models that existed when when Kevin and I were in in college no longer exist uh in the same way. And so we're preparing I'm preparing students for jobs that are vastly different than what what I had coming out of school. And um it's I lost my train of thought on that, but it was it. It's it's part of it is trying to prepare students to go out there and and fix it and figure it out, um, and create the news organizations that will that will hire the next round of students and that will think about this in different ways and that will like help break us out of the the cycle of always being behind um technology and advancement and and understanding again that people need to know what's going on, they want to know what's going on, and they want reliable, trusted sources for that, especially at the community level. Um and so we're we're still trying to figure out figure that out. But the the good thing is that the students that come through this program and they are they are excited about it, they they want to figure it out, they they develop this really, I think, grounded way of thinking about it, um, that I think is gonna take them far.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

It gives me advisors, right? Like because our audience, we have a lot of people that work in advising and student success, and probably less people that work in in your field, but for advisors that are sitting there and and for others that are that are a part of that realm of work, um one of the things that I think they have to combat is the student that's sitting across from them and the student saying, I really would like to do journalism, media as a job, and on the flip side of that, mom and dad or whoever saying, that's a dying field. Like, and I don't know that you know you get that as much in your seat because you're getting students that are there, but like what is the argument to say it's not dying, it's evolving.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

I mean, that's it, it's not dying, it's evolving.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

But no, it's what a great answer, Kevin. But what a question, Kevin. You nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

And you know, the that's that's the other part of this, you know. Uh, I'll say this very quietly. Um, you know, you don't need a journalism degree to be a journalist. And that's it helps. It's because it helps with the you know the ethical understandings and the processes and all those things, but that's again, there's no board certification, there's no licensure. Anyone can do it. And so what we often are seeing are students that are coming through that are journalism and something else majors. And in some ways, that's preparing them for different career pathways, it's also helping them to develop expertise in areas that they can then go and report on. So if they are learning about, if they are a um a biology major or environmental science or nonprofit leadership or business, all these different things. They could be a business reporter, they could go start a business, uh, but it's also helping prepare them for the multitude of journalism adjacent, I guess, careers, because we're seeing a need for good storytelling all over the place. So they could work for an NGO, they could work. I mean, we have multiple students that are working for sports teams now that are part of their like storytelling unit. And yes, it's still not true journalism because they are, you know, telling it the stories from the inside, but it still speaks to this need to have good storytellers out in the world that understand what makes a good story, understand the techniques to put it together. And again, with with the donuts, you know, understand ethically how to navigate some of these uh waters.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

It's great. It's just it's amazing for the visual audience that's watching today, or maybe for the audio audience that's not watching today. Anytime Kaiser says donut, it's like Brody is lost. He's like, Oh, donut, like Homer Simpson becomes full-fledged at that moment, and that's not the donut we're talking about. Brody loses it every time. Settle down. So maybe one of our last like serious questions. We're gonna get into some of the personal side of things and some lightning round questions. Listen, you're teacher of the year. Is that that's right?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

The journalism department. For the journalism department, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Well, you're not the only teacher for the journalism department, though, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

All right, so you're right. You're not the only teacher, so you didn't just win an award that you could only win. But like, what what did what did what does that really look like? Like, what took you a while to figure out about teaching that you think allows you to excel in the classroom to to win such a an award? That you know, that's that's something. That's that's not nothing.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Well, thank you. Um, for me, the biggest part was figuring out the larger classes. Um, you know, I got into this the PhD because I wanted to teach, and I wanted to teach and have an impact in a way that you know Joe Hedges and others had on me. And then I fell in love with the research, and then I find myself at this crossroads of being told you either need to go to a teaching institution or a research institution, and you're gonna have to decide which one you care about because you can only go one place. And so I have my on-campus interview with the University of Georgia, and I'm thinking, okay, this will be this is the research option, um, where I'll have 300 students that my TAs will teach, uh, but then I'm gonna have the research support to do uh you know the work that I want to do. And um the the amazing thing that happened was the dean, uh Charles Davis picked me up uh after breakfast and drove me over to the the building, and he had to move an apron off of his passenger seat uh for me to get in his car. And it was his dogs with the dean apron because he grills hot dogs on the front lawn once a semester for the students, which I thought, well, that's wonderful. Um but he didn't have the apron that day for that. He had it because he had been over to uh the advanced photojournalism professor's house the night before for pie night. Um, so Brody, you're gonna love this.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

I mean, hot dogs already got me there, but let's keep going. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

So the the professor's wife is a big baker, and the professor's students found out and said, Will she teach us how to bake? And yes, they said she said, No, but why don't all of you bake pies, bring them over to the house, and we'll have like a pie baking contest? And so they did that, and the dean was the judge. And I'm like, that's a Murray state level. Like, I would I would never have expected that at you know a research one institution, that the dean of the college is going over to you know, uh an 18-student class, like to the professor's house to like judge a pilot. I was like, where am I? Like, did I come to the right place? And it was like that was my first like understanding that okay, you can be somewhere like Georgia and still have that like attention and care and impact, hopefully, in the classroom. And so I was able to adopt that, I feel like, very quickly in my smaller classes. But then I started teaching some of the larger ones, and it was just it was just disheartening um to you know have students come up to talk at the end of the semester and being like, Are you even in this class? Like I've never seen you before. And they're like, No, I've been here every day, but you know, a sea of a hundred students, and and like having a hard time with dialogue and having discussion in class and just not wanting to stand up there and talk. Um, and I feel like I finally I finally figured out some ways in the classroom to foster dialogue among the, you know, the handful of students that would always raise their hand, but then using some different technologies to allow students to contribute from their computers where they can still ask questions, they can still contribute to the discussion without having to actually speak up in class. Um and like I got a lot of good feedback over the years about that. Um that was, I don't know, it helped me and learning some uh active learning techniques from our Center for Teaching and Learning. You know, once I kind of got over the uh the fear of these big classes um or these like medium-sized lecture classes, I realized that we can still do that kind of thing in there. And that that was really uh, I think a big big pivotal moment for that, for me for there.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Well, that's great. And congratulations to you. That's that's awesome. It's it it's really heartening for me to hear faculty members do care about that, right? That is, and you're living proof of taking the time and effort to be better and to kind of figure out where things weren't where you wanted them to be, and then you used the resources to get there. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

And the other thing um that I I can't leave out, especially um for the audience here, uh, our advising team is stellar, and for the longest time they were for me were this sort of like mythical office upstairs. And uh I can't remember what got me up there one day, but I was talking to one of the the advisors and realized, man, there's a whole lot of information that they know that I don't that you know that they're hearing from students. And so now uh Melissa Garber, our director of undergraduate services, she's incredible. I can go up to her office anytime and just like what are they what are they talking about? What are they griping about? What are they worried about when they're coming in for advising? And it's it's just things that I'd never thought about. And you know, to to faculty, I always recommend going and meeting the advising team and understanding those things because then on the other side, the advisors were asking me questions about classes, like, okay, so we heard from the students that you know, yeah, your class, you make them do this, and I'm like, no, that's not true. And it's one of those things like that just makes so much sense, but just you know, I mean, it's like yeah, it's it makes so much sense when you think about it, but sometimes it's so easy to just forget that that's a a really good like conversation to have just to to share that info, and that alone I think has really helped in um course planning and I mean from the advising side, from the teaching side, um think the world of them.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

So when those worlds interact and and do that, that's when it's happening correctly, and and and that's when there's a wraparound service element to what we're providing students as opposed to everybody doing things in isolation.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

That sounds like you're getting in some buzzwords there.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Let's go. That sounds like a hundred dollar word right there. That's right. Hand it over on this Friday. Uh so listen, like we're gonna move to some of the fun questions, but I'm curious here, right? Like, so I know about your Bengal fandom, which sorry is painful. It's it's nearly as painful as Brody's dolphin fandom. Um, and then of course, you're a racer fan, a longhorn fan, Georgia fan, you're you're sporting your Georgia gear today. Like, how do you mold those those loyalties together? Because sometimes they conflict and sometimes you gotta balance some of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

It was a lot more fun being a Texas graduate before they joined the SEC. Um those first couple years, or a lot easier to navigate. Um, Kevin, you actually uh I don't know if you know this or not, but like you've been a big like inspiration um in me learning how to navigate this because uh you know you've been at multiple institutions and you've been at institutions that are you know traditional enemies of or not enemies, but like rivals of Murray State. And I used to get like mad at you when I would see you like okay, I'm terrible. You're at Western, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Western Kentucky and SIUE and yeah, different places, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

It was the Western Kentucky because I remember seeing you in red and being like, How dare you? And I don't know if you told me this directly or what, but it like it just it it sunk in. And this is the line that I that I'll use that I use whenever students are like, Well, who are you gonna cheer for this weekend, Texas or Georgia? You know, Georgia pays my mortgage.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Yup. Yeah, that is the answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

I you know, I love Texas Hook'em. Uh it it was it's a wonderful place. I love their program. You know, my loyalty can be bought. Um but but seriously, I I now that I'm on that side, like I understand it, like I can see, like I could in my head, you know, joke joking aside, um about the mortgage aspect, like now that I'm here and I see what we're doing here and I'm a part of what we're doing here, you know, it's it's a no-brainer, you know. Like it, I'm I'm I'm here. I love it here. I love I love what we do. Um, I mean it it helps to have two national championships back to back. Um that was helpful. Yeah, that that was that was really, really nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Um that's one more than Indiana has right now. It's just so you just point that out. There that he kind of likes Indiana a little bit, and so hey, but it would uh don't we're the current we're the current national champions, Kaiser. Oh that's what you should remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

That was something else, man. I was I was happy. I was happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Kaiser, for your outfit today, this is my fix to this, right? You have on the Georgia gear, and so if it were me underneath that, I would have on the Texas shirt. And then I did see that you had your Murray State koozie as well. And I'm like, you're hitting it all, right? Like if there was a Bengals bat uh banner in the background, you'd have it all taken care of.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

So so this fall when Texas played at Georgia um at that night game, I put on my uh Texas socks. And there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

That's way different.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

And and that actually, like, you know, I was like, ooh, this is so like crazy. But then I would see, you know, I was on the on the shuttle to the the stadium, and there's a guy in front of me in a Texas shirt, and he was the only one on the bus in a Texas shirt, and everybody was being really nice, but like I sort of tapped him on the shoulder, like pulled my leg, like you know, showed him my socks, and we got it talking, and uh, he was the dad of one of the players, and um, all of a sudden there's like five of us talking on the bus, like giving him recommendations of where to eat and all this kind of stuff. And it was one of those, you know, like happy moments of like, oh fandom, you know, we can reach across borders and just be humans. But like, you know, it was it was a it was a nice moment, and it helps that Georgia won. Um it would have been I probably would have taken the socks off and like thrown them in the trash uh on the way out of the stadium. I'm not a bitter person, I don't I don't have hang on to grudges, but you know, it was it felt nice to have like a little bit uh but I will say my my the first Georgia home game after I started there was against Murray State, and that was such a cool like moment. And a bunch of friends came down from Murray and they just lit into me because I was head to toe red and black because I had just gotten to campus. I was like, heck yeah, I'm here. And they were like, you know, come on, man. And looking back, I'm like, God, you were so dumb. Like, just put on a Murray hat. Like, what's the you know, why do you have to go like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I was at the Missouri Valley Conference tournament this this winter in northern Iowa, where I worked for 10 years, my kids were born. I I mean I've been rooting for them for 25 years. We're playing Illinois State where I'm currently working, and my my northern Iowa people gave me the same kind of greed. And I'm like, come on, these these folks are paying my bills. Like, what do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

Now, the fun part, my favorite experience so far was that same season in basketball. Austin P, a storied rival of Murray State, played Georgia at Georgia in basketball. It was over break. Tickets were very inexpensive. I was scrolling through the ticket site, I looked at my wife, who was also from Murray, and I said, Hey, I have an idea. And she was fully on board. We got tickets right behind the Austin P bench. Yeah, you didn't. We put on our Murray State gear. Love it, and we sat behind the and you know, we just thought it was this funny thing, and then I can't remember who sent us a screenshot, but one of the Austin P fans who was watching the game streaming took a screenshot and tweeted it and was like, who the F are these Murray State? And it just it brought me so much joy that like even in this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

I love that level of trolling. That's amazing. That's why we're friends, Kaiser. That's amazing. Let's go to lightning round, Kevin. Don't you think? I think so. All right, lightning round. All right, so film camera or digital?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

Digital.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

All right, favorite Cincinnati Bengals.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Who? Joe Burrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Yeah, okay. It's gotta be Joe Burrow. I mean, I mean, like of all time, is it still Joe Burrow?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Yeah, because I mean, he got him to the Super Bowl for the first time in forever, and I didn't get him through it, but you know, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

I gotcha. It's fine. That's a great answer. One word your students would use to describe your teaching style. Traumatic, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

Um everywhere, all over the place. Sporadic. Sporadic.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Yeah, I like it. Favorite city you've ever worked or lived in.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

I love Athens so much. I didn't, I was not prepared to love Athens as much as I do, but it's such a great city.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

I've heard that a lot. We have a colleague, uh, Angela Bolas, that just moved to that area and works in advising at University of Georgia, and she says the same thing. She loves it. Uh concert uh or uh photographer's concert dream gig. What artist, what venue?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Ooh. Do they have to be living? Like does it have to be like realistic? It could be any.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

Oh, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Or like B52s at like the top of their at like the top of their career, like arena level, like just and those are of course I'm going to two different Athens legends.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

But even Athens love there, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Like I love, you know, I'd like to think back to like, you know, these huge bands back when they were playing like tiny venues and like the people that got to be there to witness that. And like that's what I would want to see for REM. But for the B-52s with the pageantry, the spectacle, like I want to see them like full on.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

Is there an image that you've taken that you're most proud of?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Yeah, I like because I I really, you know, my two main areas are uh of like work are sports and music photography. And for me, the on the concert side, you know, any of the times that I've managed to really snag a moment and not just a a picture of a performance. Um those moments are are so few and far between. But you know, when you can really see the passion in someone's eyes, when you can really when you catch them at that like peak moment, yeah. Um there was a there was a band that um I had done some volunteer work in Nashville uh doing some photography, and uh the manager there was a manager of of a couple bands, and this up-and-coming band got a chance to open for a huge act uh in Austin, and um that was one of the few times I got like an all-access pass where I got to be like in the green room with them as they're getting ready. And that was one of those moments where it was like, Oh, there's so much more to this than just the on-stage performance photos, but like them backstage, like this is the biggest crowd they're about to play in front of. Like, this could have been it wasn't, but it could have been like a big turning point for them. Uh, in you know, and just like getting pictures of that like excitement in what would otherwise just feel like a mundane, like they're just in the green room hanging out, but like you can feel that like energy. That was a really cool moment. I know this is lightning round, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

It's all good. Uh, a journalism tradition you love.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Well, uh specifically at the Murray State News, and they still do this apparently. Um, uh they we would do an Easter egg hunt uh once a year, um, where I don't know if if Orville still hides the eggs, but you know, we'd be on deadline and uh all of a sudden he'd lock the doors and go out into the quad or the building and hide eggs, and then we would all just I mean the the competitiveness of it, the the the fact that it reverted us all back to like children immediately. Like here we are, like laying out pages and like arguing over like sentences and all this stuff, and then it's like time out, we gotta go hunt for chocolate.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

That was my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Last one, is there a book you recommend to everyone, professional, personal?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

Oh. Well, I mean, since you were talking about all the like inbox zero and all that crap before, um, I hate to admit it, the getting things done, like that was such a good book in like figuring out how to like I don't do all of it. It's kind of like this whole solutions journalism thing. Like, I'm not gonna like just like a journalist can learn how to be a better journalist, even if they're don't if they're not doing all of it. Like, I don't I don't do all of the things, but it really helped me rethink a lot of like don't use your inbox as a to-do list and like you know, different ways to offload things from your mind. Um but recreationally, because I still do um I try and really carve out time to read like fiction um for myself and to remember that reading is not just the academic stuff. Um, I just finished reading King Sorrow uh by Joe Hill. Um another another second floor uh connection. Scott Gibson recommended the book to me. Uh we're we're good reads buddies, and um it was one of those that I don't think I ever would have read because it leaned it started normal, then it leaned into like dragons and stuff, and I usually don't like that kind of thing, but it's like a Stephen King level length of like 900 pages, and so the character development, like I was so surprised by the end that I was so invested in the story and what was happening, um, even though it was them like summoning this dragon, and then like I don't know, it was I I love those kind of books that you you wouldn't read, um, and then you get into and you're like, huh. Um, and for my wife, it was uh uh Project Hail Mary. Uh she wanted me to book out for her that she would not choose to read on her own. And I know she would never have picked that book up because she's like, Do we really need another uh book about space? And she loved it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

So the answer is yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Well, hey, uh, very good to have you, and very good to see you again. I know it's been we haven't caught each other since uh Murray State played in in Indianapolis, I think. And it was a heartbreaking night uh against San Francisco, I think that night. But uh it's good to see you and thank you for being a guest on the pickup meeting. Uh it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:04

Y'all don't have to answer these questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

No, we don't we don't answer these questions. You have to start your own podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

Oh no, I hate podcasts. There's no way.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Well, thanks for for taking away the hate and just joining us for the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

Oh, I'll be on a podcast. I I'd love to hear myself talk. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

Thanks all so much, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

This was this was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

I feel like I learned. Yeah, that's what was kind of exciting about this one, right? We've we sometimes feel like we're experts on the student success advising thing. And so when you talk to somebody who's an expert in something else and you're really trying to dig into what they're doing, it's it's a lot of fun. Yeah, and there's something reassuring on our side of things as being consumers of media in the way that we are, that there are things happening like solutions journalism that I would not even known was a thing. Um, and so it was really great to get to interact and hear some of that along with some of the other topics and conversations we got to today. Yeah, uh it gives me hope that if he's hopeful, then I can be hopeful about journalism. Maybe we're gonna get there. Let's hope, man. Let's hope. Better days ahead. And and I think it's with the students that he's teaching and the students in our classroom now to make sure that it's a better uh it's a better solution in the end. Yeah. So we gotta go with top three. Yeah, we're gonna do a top three, and the top three is going to be top three photos of our time. Now, listen, I know this is tough for you, and this has been an episode with no age jokes, and so we've got to get one in. But were you able to reflect back on the black and whites? Yeah, I know. I was uh I was gonna get really serious, and I was gonna reveal one of my top three during yeah, Kaiser asked, Was photography even invented then in the chat? He's trolling me easy even as he's off screen. Like, that's great. And I wanted to get really serious. I uh you know, you were there in 9-11, you were old enough to kind of understand what was going on, and and I was kind of knee deep in adulthood, right? And one photo that sticks out, like I'll I'll start into the top three is the jumping man, right? And the controversy with the jumping man. And like I think about that day, and and I know there was a lot of horrible things about that day, but one of the things that really uh got me was were the jumpers and and the New York Times' willingness to post that photo, which I think says a lot, right, about what was happening in that day. And that's definitely one of the top three, right? And I knew some of this would be a little bit depressing. And there are some other news photos, like the Challenger in '86, the explosion, like that picture of just the whole ship and and the lines of the smoke and the and the flume kind of flying out is something that kind of sticks in in my head a lot, too. Um, those are the two kind of really uh monumental events maybe in my life that kind of stick out from a photo perspective. Sporty-wise, right? The 87 Keith Smartshot, the 2011 when Freeze is touching home plate, that photo is just pure elation. And then I the most recent one is Mendoza, right? Diving as he crosses the goal line. Those are great. So, and then music-wise, I've got a couple of great Guster photos on my role that I'm really proud of taking, but uh those are my three plus, I guess. How about you? I was like, do I get to do any? Are we doing the top 30? You settled down now. Oh goodness. Listen, so we we we kind of talked about this in advance, and and and I thought about the serious aspect of things, and I I said, I can't do it. Like there, but I want to end the episode on on a little bit of a like serious side. And so I'm gonna go with one similar, right? But different image. There's this image of David Freeze in 2011 after he hits the home run and he's rounding first base and his hand is up, you know, pointing over with the number one as he hits. It is my favorite Cardinal picture of all time. And like second probably is the Maguire hitting 62, you know, as that moment's occurring, even with the diminished impact of that now. Um, this one is harder for me because my allegiance has changed uh with the Viking fandom here, but like Kaiser only knows me as a Rams fan because of our time together. Wow. But the the the Mike Jones tackle at the one-yard line is an unbelievable moment in photo. And then the third for me that stands out as this transformational experience because I can remember watching the moment and then seeing photos afterwards in 2008. Um, Obama and Grant Park, that's those photos. Um, I even seeing them now, and maybe especially now, uh, are an emotional experience. And so that's the power of a photo that it just captures that moment and it's so wonderful. Yeah, those are three great ones. Yeah, look, you you did good. I didn't stop you from saying what you needed to say, right? Yeah, I I was a little fatigued because I had to wait for all 30 of yours to get through, but beyond that, I did okay. I deserved it. You didn't important to say. Listen, you have so many more years to have to reflect on. It's true, it's true. Well, I mean, uh, look, we've gone a little long today, but I think it was worth it. Absolutely. Absolutely. We didn't even get into all the topics. That's how great Kaiser was for us today. He was really fantastic. So, hey, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. Uh, I'm gonna keep it short today. Until the next time, let's just do good and be nice. How about that? Be nice.