Ep. 36 - Katie Dawson, University of Louisiana System

What happens when adult learners, online education, micro-credentials, baseball parks, and “other duties as assigned” all walk into one podcast episode? You get a lively conversation with Dr. Katie Dawson, Associate Vice President for Enrollment, Innovation, and Talent Strategy for the University of Louisiana System.

Katie joins Kevin and Brody to talk about Compete Louisiana, a systemwide effort helping adults with some college credit finish what they started. Along the way, she breaks down the real barriers stop-out students face, why relationships still matter in enrollment work, how online learning can be built to actually serve students, and why micro-credentials may deserve a seat at higher ed’s grown-up table. The conversation also wanders, delightfully, through mentorship, digital literacy, workforce pathways, grocery delivery, summer nostalgia, and a spirited debate over America’s best ballparks.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And away we go. Welcome back to the pickup meeting. We're gonna circle back, touch base, and leverage our synergies until we all forget while we're here. I'm Kevin Thomas, joined by a man who's the only value ad I actually care about. My co-host, Rodie Brochier's.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Oh, Kevin, that was at least nice. I I you kind of saved it with that last line, because the first part may be not so great.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Wow. Like we were just talking about being nicer to each other, and I I hold up my end of the bargain, and then instantly we start recording again, and you become a fierce opponent of me.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I don't know that that was fierce opposition as much as it was just uh maybe uh an unpleasant observation.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I listen, audience, we're recording, it's gonna be fun, but our energy is a little different today, and so who knows how this is gonna turn out. Let's just warn people in advance. I think that's really a smart idea. All right. Well, I'm excited about our show. Um I'm always excited about our show because we get the chance to hang out, record, meet people, talk. Um, but let's start off with a conversation about you as a student. And so I'm curious, when you were in college, did you actually use the resources that were there for you, like advising, tutoring, counseling? Like, were you a user of those things?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Yeah, I mean, I saw my advisor every semester at IU in your first year, you had a university division advisor, and I saw that person. He was housed in the residence hall where I lived, which was great. And he was really nice. He kind of rode around this three-speed bike across around campus. I used to see him often. He kind of looked like an absent-minded professor. He was bald, but he had hair crazy, kind of flying all over the place on the sides, which was super fun. He asked really great questions. I I found I don't remember his name, but he was amazing. And then I saw him, my two departmental advisors in political science, I saw them each semester as well. They nominated me for 5 capital, so clearly I had an impact on them in some way, shape, or form. They thought I was a smart, smart young man, but I didn't none of the other services, like I uh tutoring, I wouldn't have even been able to tell you where tutoring was or counseling, I wouldn't have been able to tell you where counseling was. And you went to a big campus, I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Big Ten school, yeah for sure. How about you? Like, I don't think I use those a lot, right? Like, I mean, I've talked about my advising story before where I couldn't tell you who my advisor was while I was at Murray State. Um, I still say my mom was my advisor. The only reason I got through in four years um is for sure her looking at the catalog and saying, hey, this is what you need to do, this is how you're gonna get there. I don't remember doing counseling, I don't remember doing tutoring. I I utilized career services because I took a career assessment that as an undeclared student trying to figure it out, and my assessment said that I should be a priest, so that didn't turn out to be true, and you know, I mean though those things occurred, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Kevin Thomas, we know the limitations of those assessments. Don't you go saying it told you you should be a priest.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

It did, but it said, before you look at your results, consult with a career counselor, and I was like, nah, I'm good, I'm gonna just look at this. And it was like you should be a priest. And then when I met with the career counselor, the career counselor said, What it means is you care about people and you want to be better. Very good. And I was like, for your assessment, you should provide some analysis to the company that says maybe there's a better way to say that than priest, just maybe. I think that when we're talking about this, right, that there's two different perspectives, and both you and I had this as 18-year-old students. I and again, I know you've got to reflect on what 18-year-old Brody would have been doing, but like you couldn't find certain services, and you couldn't find certain things. I think that this is one of these things as a conversation that the non-traditional, the adult student, the 34, 35-year-old that's coming back to take advantage of these things, that's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, uh, absolutely it is. And you know, I've kind of lived this here in the last year, year or so. My my administrative aid is 45 years old. She she's finishing up with an internship this summer, but she walked in May, she earned her degree, and you know, I think there's this myth, especially in places like Illinois State, adult learners might be rusty, they might be less tech savvy, they might be academically behind. And I think the reality, and it certainly was with Whitney, was you know, that they're often going to outperform peers. You know, they're a lot more engaged with faculty members, right? They bring lived experience, and that really helps them in the classroom. They're really goal-oriented. Uh, and and I think, you know, Whitney's not in school just for fun or to learn, right? She's really trying to connect that directly to careers, maybe, or family outcomes. She tells me this great story, you know, that her her son is also graduating from the U of I. And she told me this great story that, you know, she she realized that, you know, she tells her kids not to be quitters, and she thought, you know, I started school, I didn't finish, and I gotta kind of put my money where my mouth is. That's a great story. And so, to me, a lot of times when we talk about adult learners, and especially in a place like Illinois State, that I think is really, really uh residential, very traditionally aged, like, what if the issue isn't ability, but that higher ed is still really, in most instances, designed for 18-year-olds? Isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

I mean, come on, there are some schools doing this better than others, but yeah, and I I feel like I'm probably in a similar place that I worry less about the student being ready for the experience and more about the campus being supportive of that student experience, along with the student facing roadblocks that then shut them down, right? Right. And and and we're all guilty of that. You go to a restaurant and they say 30-minute wait, and you're you think, well, I'm gonna walk down the street and it's gonna be quicker, you know. Like if there's a roadblock, it puts an obstacle in front of us, and students get roadblocks when all of a sudden we're talking about, well, advising is eight to five, yeah, tutoring is eight to five, or eight to seven, you know, like even in that time frame, people leaving jobs. How are you gonna get there? Kids that you gotta take care of, got to get them to sporting events, all the things that are happening. I mean, there's just there's a lot of life, and so I worry this is a very similar conversation that we have often about international students and uh is our is our campus and our town ready for international students from certain areas, but I don't think we have it in as broad of a term for the non-traditional adult learner student that is trying to accomplish just the same as the 18-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, and I think you know, all the things that we talked about earlier that I that to me make adult learners value added in the classroom, for example, right? They're older, more experienced. And I think then they'll from a services perspective, we make the same kinds of assumptions, right? They can figure this out on their own. But to me, I think it's really more about how do we coordinate that support. You know, we have to help adult learners navigate systems that are built for traditionally aged students, right? But they're they oftentimes are balancing family, work, and school, they might be entering after long gaps, you know. So I think that that confidence in the real world, right, that independence doesn't automatically mean that they don't need that support, it needs to be coordinated, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, I agree. And some of that coordinating that we do happens during the summer months as we prepare for everything that's coming. And so this is kind of a summer conversation. We've talked about the fact that summer is not a slow time before, but as we sit here, I think uh this is gonna release June 10th. So happy June audience. Um it's June. Um, what what memories do you have about summer growing up uh on a college campus? What what do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I kind of miss, I kind of miss uh I kind of miss maybe thought about this question because I was thinking about childhood memories. Yes, you can do that too. Do those. Let's go. My mom went to back to work, I think, like in 1983 or so, 1984, maybe. So I was 13 or 14 years old, 12 or 13 years old, and we would go to this city pool that was about a mile from our house. You had to get through some busy streets to do it, but my job was to make sure my three younger brothers and I got to Harky Pool with the 75 cents it cost to get in, and maybe a few extra quarters for Pac-Man or food. I mean, I was 13 years old riding the bike with my five or six-year-old brother getting to Harky Pool and then and then making sure he didn't drown. The 80s, man. But I loved those days. It's so wild. And you know, I was kind of this, I loved be, I was by the time I was 13 or 14, I had kind of thinned out, and I got I would always get really tan. And I mean, if you look at my face now, there's clearly a problem, right? I got way too much sun growing up, but gosh, I loved this, I loved the summer months. We had a dairy queen really close to the house, and we played little league. And at what there was one year where my two younger brothers and I were all on the same team, and the Dairy Queen visits after the game were great. Those are the things that kind of pop into my head.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

How about you? I think it's similar. I mine I lived right next next to a ball field, and so we would go out the gate in the backyard, and there are five baseball fields out there that yeah, I played on all the time, and so I just remember playing a lot of baseball, spending a lot of time running around in the neighborhood with the neighborhood kids. You know, I same thing. I remember after baseball games going to the Dairy Queen until the Dairy Queen burnt down, and then of course we had to go to the McDonald's, which is not the same experience. Yeah. Um, no offense, we're not gonna get a sponsorship from McDonald's today. Um, so I I just I I remember liking summer so much, not just because I wasn't in school, but because it was just a different busyness of life. Um you could sleep in a little bit, but then also you go do sports and just get out and about and really just engage with your friends. And and then as you get older, right? Like you get summer jobs and a little less of that happens. And yeah, and then I I will say, you know, in college, being on a college campus during the summer, that's like it's a super different experience.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

It is, yeah. I mean, I told you about the Pizza Express breadsticks and and coke, right? Like that whole summer was just hedonism, super fun, and and and really quiet, right? Really quiet. Having a campus to yourself is is great. I mean, I love I love when students are there, but it's also fine when it's empty.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, I'm always excited for students to come back in the fall, but I'm also always excited for summer to occur.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And the other thing there's no doubt about is I don't know that we have a great transition to bringing on our guests from this conversation about summer, but we're gonna transition to our guests. How about that for transitions?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I think it's wonderful. We we could say that whether it's summer or not, we love that our guest is here today.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Absolutely, and so today on the pickup meeting, we're welcoming Dr. Katie Dawson, uh the Associate Vice President for Enrollment, innovation, and talent strategy at the University of Louisiana system. Katie started as an adjunct faculty member in the communication department in 2010, um, and then joined the staff of ULM online in 2013 and eventually became the interim director. And on Gway was she was an honors faculty of the year, uh postsecondary teacher of the year for region eight. And gosh, there's like a ton of other things. It's like Katie, like, are you just like all around awesome? Like, am I missing some things here?

SPEAKER_04 13:12

I mean, I don't know that that's the answer, but I'll take it, Kevin. So thanks for that.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, you're now working at the system level across nine universities, leading enrollment strategy, innovation, initiatives, and talent development for the UL system. Wow. Oh, and and one of the signature programs that you're helping build or that you did help build is Complete Louisiana, which we're gonna talk about today. It's super great to have you on.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Um, it's nice to be with both of you. I've enjoyed listening to the show as you've gotten it up and running. Um, yes, we are doing some really exciting things here in Louisiana, um, in addition to having a really good time while we do it. Uh, and I am very proud of the work that we've done with Compete Louisiana. So people do tend to add the L because they think it's about completing the degree. Oh, but it's actually about competing and being competitive, not only in the workforce, but also as you think about moving forward in your life. Um, look at that. Look at that. Putting my glasses on because I can't read.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I I thought I looked at our notes and I'm like, oh my gosh, did I do it wrong? No, Brody just read it wrong. Katie, uh I have to we have to at least state this at the beginning because we will at least have one listener of this episode that is near and dear to both of us, and that Katie and I are connected in a unique way, and that we don't know each other super well, although I'm putting up my WKU fight song banner right now, um, as both being grads of WKU. Um, but Katie and I both have a uh common mentor in Dr. Ellen Bonaguru that I've talked about on the show before. Um, but that's really how Katie and I's paths have connected because anytime I talk to Ellen, she says, Oh my gosh, you have got to talk to Katie Dawson about all the things she's doing. And I think anytime Katie talks to Ellen, yeah, she hears how great Kevin Thomas is, which I need to pay Ellen off for those lies. But yeah, we got to fill it in on those things.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Absolutely. Um, also, Kevin, she promises that you're gonna give me a job one day. So I'm just like, you know, letting you know that uh might need to cash in on her promises.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

So I love it.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

If if Ellen says hire somebody, I'm on board. Let's go. Yeah, you've promised me that too, Kevin, but I'm fearful that I'll be retired before that can happen. You want to retire like next week, man. I don't know if that's true, but probably sooner than you're gonna help me. That's probably true.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Uh, Katie, back to you, as you know, you're the guest. And and you started as an adjunct in the communication department.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I wouldn't say that I think that's the typical launching pad for system level enrollment and innovation. Um, looking back, was there a moment you realized that that was actually a foundation of everything, or did that connection only become clear later?

SPEAKER_04 16:11

You know, um, I've been really lucky throughout my experience with higher education, which now spans over two decades, which is incredibly painful to say. Just saying, like, I don't feel that I have that much experience, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Um, but I've been really lucky to have the opportunity to serve in a lot of different roles across a university. And being an adjunct faculty that ended up kind of at an instructor level um pretty early in my career was an amazing opportunity. I think it really gave me a deep understanding of what our faculty work with in our classrooms and how they have um both the opportunity and the challenge of connecting with their students and the different types of students that they're serving. Um, University of Louisiana Monroe is a regional institution. Um, it's in one of the lowest socioeconomic areas within the state of Louisiana. My students at that institution ranged from traditional 18 to 23, 24-year-olds to adult students. Um, and one of the really unique opportunities that I had um as a faculty member was to uh really spearhead their offerings online. So um, Kevin, you'll appreciate this. When I moved to Louisiana, I was like, I wanted to get into higher education. I had just finished my master's degree and thought teaching could be like really cool. And so I reached out to the department head um of communication at ULM, who happened to also be from Kentucky, like gotta play up that little like geography connection, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

And just said, hey, like I'm here, I'm interested. He called me in, we had a great conversation, and he's like, I don't have any classes for you, but you know, if the semester comes around and something comes up, I'll be sure to give you a call. And it was one of those situations where you felt good about the conversation and you felt like, oh, like I I could actually do this one day, but you also left like that's probably not gonna happen.

unknown 18:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Well, unbeknownst to me, two months later, uh, the weekend of Martin Luther King weekend, the weekend before spring classes started, he called me up and he said, I have three classes. Is there any chance that you can start Tuesday? And so um, I was in a great position to be able to do that. I hadn't quite found my professional footing uh since I had moved to Louisiana, and so that was my entry point in. And honestly, y'all, it was just an opportunity to fall in love with not only the campus and the people within my new community, but also to develop this longer, deeper relationship with higher education. Um, and so that's bringboarding me to where I am now.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

It's awesome. I I really love that, and it kind of builds into our next question. And now that I have my glasses on, I won't miss this. I mean, I try to get through these episodes without wearing these glasses, and I can't do it, I can't do it. So I'm not gonna get this wrong. It it is four generations of educators in your family: great grandmother, grandmother, mother, and now you, right? Like, that's not a career path, that's lineage. I mean, those are those are expectations. So, did you ever try to go in a different direction, or was this always where you thought you were headed?

SPEAKER_04 19:30

No, a hundred percent. So, when I grow up, I mean, like, education was in my face, obviously. It was the conversation around the dinner table, it was the conversation on family vacations. Um, and so originally before coming to WKU, I was like, I'm gonna be a middle school teacher, and I really wanted to teach social studies. Um, and so when I got to WKU, I surprisingly, Kevin, I don't know that you know this about me, came in undeclared and spent my first year undeclared and really just experiencing college and getting some general education requirements out of the way. And like nobody told me to do this, but I thought to myself, you know what? If I have all of these options, I want to try things out that I might have an interest in before I commit, right? Like, because I am not one to jump into commitment quick. And so um I was able to kind of find communication as a major organically. Um, and my first semester of my sophomore year, my uh professor, Dr. Sally Hastings, in my cultural communication class that checked the box on general education, wrote on my first exam, have you considered doing graduate work in communication? And I was like, I don't even know what my undergrad's gonna be. So okay, maybe this is it.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

Um, so in that, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go out into the work world and I'm gonna make organizations better. And actually, that's what I'm doing. So it kind of just worked out that it happened to be in an education pathway.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

So pretty cool. I I think the interesting part of the first two stories you've told is you know, you reaching out and being proactive likely ensured your path. Like, who knows? You could have ended up in a similar place, but it may not have been there. And on the flip side is a faculty member putting something on a piece of paper kind of piqued that interest just a little bit in what a what a tremendous impact those things have had in being proactive, but also being thoughtful enough to write something down rather than just a. You know, I mean, it could have been stuck at just I'm gonna write down A. Katie did a good job, but it was more than that.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

But I mean, like, I think that's you know, that's it, right? Like, that's what makes higher education so special, is because it's not just attending a class to get a skill, right? Skills are important, and we should talk about skills too. But it's also that connection and the opportunity for somebody to recognize something in you that maybe you don't see in yourself.

unknown 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

Um, and I think that's the gift of higher education. I think a lot of students walk into the classroom expecting to go in one pathway. University of Louisiana Monroe has the only pharmacy school in the state of Louisiana that is a state-run institution. And so I have a ton or I had a ton of pre-pharmacy majors, and they really thought their freshman year that was going to be the pathway. But a year, two years later, the path changes. And I think some of that is when we figure out that maybe we don't have the skill or aptitude that we needed for that direction. But I also think some of it comes with the opportunity to explore and to also be shaped by the people around you in that college experience to really lean into things that you maybe didn't know that you had a passion or interest in.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, I mean, I do I that that just that note, right? That that that extra belief in you, right? We underestimate so much what the power of that faculty member's comment has made on you. And I'm I'm always harking back to like this chronicle article I read a long time ago, maybe five, 10 years ago, that talks about what we want students to remember from our time with them 20 years ago. Now, you might be a savant of some sort. Maybe you remember exactly what you were learning in that cultural communication course, but it's clearly not the most important thing that you remember from that, right? It was the faculty members' comment. And so I often think it's how we make students feel that really, really matters. And I guess that's more of a statement than it is a question, but in your role as a teacher, have you have you been able to kind of embody that idea of helping students feel valued in in the in the classroom?

unknown 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Or how have you done that? Right. So for me, I just I love people, I love connecting with people. Um, as you mentioned, fourth generation educator, and my mom specifically was an elementary school special education teacher. Um, my aunt was born with profound mental disabilities. And so growing up, my mom was her bigger sister and had caretaking responsibilities, but also had the understanding that she was going to have as good and productive a life as she was capable of having. And they were gonna give her every opportunity to do that, and that shaped my mom's direction to go into special education. So, as a child, she really instilled in me everybody has the aptitude to learn if you connect them with the right opportunities and resources. And so, like in thinking about the work that I do now with traditional students and those adult learners, right? Because I I really think we got to like 86, the non-traditionals, right? Like, because yeah, we're all traditional students at this point. Yes. Um, but it's really helping them understand and make those connections. And nine times out of 10, it's not because the adult in those situations or the student in the situation was not capable of succeeding, it's because they were either at a moment in their life where it just made it really hard to prioritize that academic pathway, or they were not in a matched situation receiving support to help them understand either you're moving in a direction that you're not going to be successful at, or that it's gonna be a lot, a lot more difficult and require you to be a lot more tenacious. And so I think part of what we do as educators, whether you're on the faculty side or on the higher educational professional staff side, is help students connect their ideas, impacts, goals with what you have to offer and also opening the door to maybe what they never knew was possible.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Before we brought you on, Brody and I were bantering back and forth about our college days. You heard you heard a bit of this. Um, and one of the things is the learning that occurs, um, especially in the online atmosphere and the work that you've done. And so I'm curious, what does it actually mean to build an online program that works as opposed to one that just exists? And I I think there's probably a second part to this where I I've worked on a lot of campuses where I feel like we are probably not at the place that we should be with online learning, and it also feels like we're miles behind the people that are doing it correctly, and so like, should we even be trying? Because we can't be those institutions.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

So I think that's really interesting, Gavin. Um, when it comes to online, I think we have to understand that people want the product the way they want the product, and in this case, it could mean education, it could mean groceries. Um, and my favorite example for this is I live three miles from seven different grocery stores, y'all. Like I could have my pick, I could go to a Walmart, I could go to an Albertsons, I could go to a Whole Foods, but I have my groceries delivered because I don't want to go and actually physically shop for them.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

And so I think higher education has to adjust and be willing to give students routes to education in the way that they want to interact with them. And the truth of the matter is that online offers flexibility and if done right, it can offer connection, but it can also offer acceleration in a way that in-person classes can't. And for most adult students, that is going to be the way that they finish. It may not be the way they want to finish, they may want to be sitting in the classroom, but physically that's not a thing if you are balancing full-time work, full-time family responsibilities, and who knows, maybe community responsibilities as well. And so, Kevin, I definitely think that if you are an institution that has not launched into the online game, you're not too late. You are behind, but you need to catch up because this is not just a way to grow your adult student enrollment, this is a way to reach your future student enrollment. You have students on your campus that absolutely want to be in the class for some classes, but other classes they may want to take online and they should have that option. We should be flexible.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah, that demographic cliff is gonna certainly force that adjustment. I don't think there's any question about that. Let's let's move to some of your Louisiana specific work, but and I'm gonna get this right this time, but Compete Louisiana, right, is is targeting adults who typically have 60 to 70 credits. They're not far from the finish line, but they've stopped. What does a success coach actually do with those students that an admissions office can, for example?

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Oh my gosh. So I'm really proud of the structure that we set up with Compute Louisiana. Um, generally, typically, our average Compute LA student is coming in with 70 to 90 hours of credit earned. Um, they are absolutely within two to uh, well, within four to well, one to four semesters of finishing. And so um that's great, but we also help students get connected who maybe are a little per uh a little earlier in that journey as well. Um, and so part of what we've done is we really start at the point of what is your interest? What credit do you already have? And how can we help you figure out a pathway to finish either in a new direction, because maybe you're maybe you were a pre-nursing major and you found that accounting is your jam. Um, or perhaps you want to be a teacher and you were a psychology major. Well, let's talk about a pathway to get you finished with that psychology degree, and then let's talk about how you become a certified teacher, because there are multiple pathways without actually adding additional coursework to your undergraduate degree. Um, so we have very proudly um kind of figured that piece out, um, at least across our nine institutions. Um, we do serve the University of Louisiana system, and so through that service, uh any student who's part of our program gets the success coach that sticks sticks with them through graduation, but also gets a discounted tuition rate of $275 per credit hour, which is not cheap, but it is much more affordable than most tuition rates.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

Um, and the key for that, or the key on that for us has been thinking through most of these students are paying down debt for a degree that they have yet to earn. So if they need to also be able to pay tuition while continuing to pay down debt, there has to be a price point that is reasonable, that is attainable, and that potentially can be paid out of pocket with cash. One of the things that I think is the hallmark of higher education moving forward is I think gone are the days of students willingly taking out large-scale loans to get an education. That's not just the adult students who have been burned by it in the past, that's their kids and future generations who are learning from those mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yep. You identified four barriers for stop out students or that stop out students face. And I'm curious um which one of those surprises you the most when you walk through them and why?

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Okay, interesting, Kevin. So those four barriers that he's referring to are um dispositional barriers. So those are the things that are internally going on with the student. What's gonna make this time the most successful time? If I've attempted this one, two, four, seven times, what's gonna make this last time stick? Uh, the second is situational barriers, and those are life things, and guys, those are really happy things. They're babies and new jobs and marriages, and they're really sad things too: illness, death, loss of jobs. And so the the thing that's hard about situational barriers is we as institutions have very little to no control over what happens, right? But what we can be thoughtful around is how we're building support systems for both those dispositional barriers and how we're thinking around pathways in and out for situational barriers. If you have a student tell you that they need to step out or stop out, typically at most of our institutions, that's the end of the story. We might reach back to you in five to seven years if we're trying to like up our enrollment and we want to do a stop out campaign. Right, that's not how we should be treating these students. We think about how we treat our alumni, we want our alumni to come back and be engaged. I want my former students to come back and be engaged and finish. And so I really think we have to think about how we're continuing those relationships. But the third barrier is institutional barriers, which Kevin, this is my twist on your on your question, are actually my favorite types of barriers. Because you have control of them, boom, yes, we have the ability not only to identify them, but also to change them. Yeah, um, and that's a pretty powerful thing. I think sometimes even just going through our own process and identifying where there are holes, there are tiny little adjustments that you can make that make a huge difference to your yield and enrollment.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

Um, the fourth, and probably the nearest and dearest to my heart, are technological barriers. So my dissertation was actually on the digital divide in Louisiana. I I couldn't wrap my mind around what that was. So I worked with my wonderful research assistant, Rachel Laudiger, um, and we physically mapped the digital divide using um community survey data. And so we wanted to understand how the digital divide in Louisiana impacted adults who potentially could come back and finish their degree. So, some college no degree. And what we found is that there are a lot of adults who don't have a computer in their home. So when you think about adults returning, and even your modern student, they're not necessarily doing their work on a laptop or a desktop. We have to be thinking thoughtfully around how mobile is being used and how we're talking to students about how they do their work. You you may actually need to add a disclaimer to your work, like, please don't do this on a mobile phone, please find a laptop or a computer lab to complete this work. Um, we also have to think about the skill set. So if you're trying to recruit back adults who maybe were attending your institutions in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, computers were definitely around, but they weren't a mandated resource at the time. And so if you have an adult who has junior level credit and is entering a junior level research class online, but has never had the opportunity to research online, you just can't expect that they're gonna know what to do or that they're gonna know how to do it safely. Absolutely. And so the biggest takeaway for me was understanding that population and really thinking thoughtfully around the barriers that our students are facing that are completely outside of our control. And then also thinking thoughtfully around how we're integrating digital literacy throughout the curriculum, y'all. I'm not just talking lower level undergraduate classes, it has to be junior, senior level, it has to be graduate work.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yep. I I love all of that response, but I want to come back to something that you mentioned early in that answer, and that is that importance of re-establishing relationship and trust, right? Before you can talk about anything else, right? Logistics, credit, coursework, all that matters. But I think across the higher ed landscape where everyone's understaffed, overextended, how do you make the case for relationship first work when it feels like a slow strategy?

SPEAKER_04 36:27

So it's super interesting that that's your take. So for me, it hasn't been a pushback of I don't want to do that, or that feels weird. It's I would love to be able to build relationships, but right now I can't get my CRN to send auto communication. So how am I going to do that?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Katie, you have a big job, and I feel like your title maybe just continues to evolve as you continue to say yes to things. And so for just a second, want to talk about enrollment. You work uh now across nine universities, and you look at enrollment challenges from the system level. What do you see that individual campuses can't see from their inside their own walls?

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Okay, great question. Um, and you know, honestly, it's that relationship piece. It's establishing ghost campaigns. Y'all know what ghosts means, right? Like somebody ghosts you. All right. So students do that to us all the time. They'll come into our Compete LA program and then like we'll send them a text or a follow-up email or give them a call, and they're like, new number, who dis. And that's okay. I just want them to know that when they're ready to get back on the train, I'm ready to help them. And so one of the things that we thoughtfully built into our process was a time period, it's around four to five weeks, that we give students to interact with us. In the first week, we're hitting them pretty heavy. They're gonna get three to four communications from us that week because we're really gonna try and connect with them. If we don't hear from them within that week, we drop down to two communications a week for the next four weeks. If at that point they have not engaged with their coach, well, I only have three coaches for this program. They have thousands of students that they're serving, they're gonna have to move people in and out of their caseload. And so when you're not responding, I'm moving you into a Ghost Comms communication plan. And every month you're gonna get a communication from me over three years that says, Hey, when you're ready, we're ready.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Hey, we're watching this new program at this institution. We thought it might be a fit for you based on your interests.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Um, and y'all, the craziest thing is that there's no rhyme or reason for why people wake up and come back. So I have people weekly, five to seven, that have been sitting in Ghost Comms for three to six months, four to five years, that are just like, yep, today's the day. And what we found is you act then, like time is of the essence. People change their minds for a hot minute. I was gonna do my dissertation using Afrocentric theory. Um, and one of the principles of Afrocentric theory is that um education is community-based and spiritual, and like I really feel that as an educator in the South. My students were very spiritual. It is a sign, okay? It is a sign if you get a communication back. And if you don't, or if somebody's not nice to you, then it is also a sign that this is not meant to be. And so we have to be thoughtful around that, and we have to be thoughtful about getting back to students in a timely and transparent manner.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, we see that with our traditionally aged population that is either struggled or hasn't registered. Those outreach comms are pretty intentional and really specific and timed in real meaningful ways, at least within my space. And it is amazing what really draws a response. There's no doubt about that. So I think that that works not just for re-up students, but we have to think about that with our our uh our 18 to 22-year-old population, which is a population that I'm primarily serving at my institution, is that those responses do really matter? So bravo to you on on really thinking about it that way and then really committing to that. I want to talk a little bit about that talent strategy piece of your title. That's interesting to me. And so when you when you talk about talent in this context, are you talking about the institution's talent, the stake state workforce pipeline, both? Like, what does that look like in real world, Katie, workday?

SPEAKER_04 40:50

All of the above. Oh, good. All of the above, yes. Um, so I have the unique privilege of helping to lead and shape professional development opportunities across our system, both for faculty and professional staff on various topics. Um, my go-to over the last five years has been mental health, online teaching and learning, open educational resources, financial literacy, because uh financial literacy is just as important as mental health and digital literacy and typical literacy, um, grants and research. Uh, and so that's thinking around strategy to connect faculty and staff with professional development opportunities, especially as we think about resource constriction and the fact that we just don't have the ability to pay for and send people to conferences. Um, it's also thinking through that workforce strategy for the state. Um, one of the things that I reflect on, and I had an amazing experience at Western Kentucky University as an undergraduate. But when I graduated, I struggled and I did go to grad school immediately. And part of the reason was because I loved communication. And part of the reason was because I didn't know how to move forward and what was next. And so I do think that there is a lot of work we can do in higher education to lay pathways out and help people understand how they can not only migrate away from us successfully in a career path, but again, I'm thinking about those students who are not gonna finish with us. Sure. What can we give them? What pathways can we show them to say, hey, it's okay that you only got 60 hours of credit? We've given you opportunities to earn some micro-credentials that hopefully an employer will see, hey, Brody has these skills in addition to 60 hours of college credit. Like this is somebody who is a self-starter, who is a motivator, and he's built himself a pathway in data analytics and project management. If we don't give students language to talk about that, it's not surprising that we're getting criticism nationally and across my state about not connecting academics with workforce.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

All right, so this is a topic that I feel like you're gonna educate me on. You you could sway me, Katie, but like I I don't understand micro-credentials, and it's not that I don't understand them, I just I'm never people be like, you can do this and earn a micro-credential, and I'm and I just think I don't care, right? Like that's where I get to, and that's probably terrible to vocalize on this podcast, but I'm saying I'm being me audience, and so where do you actually land on micro credentials as a tool for adult learners and not just an enrollment play? And like, why should I, Kevin Thomas, value them more than I currently do?

SPEAKER_04 43:56

All right, so my first answer is the easy answer. Kevin, you should care about this because of workforce pal. That's my first answer. Yeah. Second answer. Um, I am on the micro-credential train. I've actually been on this train for about four years now. Um, I had the exact same reaction, Kevin. The exact same gut reaction. Like, what? Why? I don't have time for this. Why would I want to do what does a badge mean?

unknown 44:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

And I get it. But here's where I lean into it. Number one, I love the idea of self-guided learning and to give people individualized learning pathways. Um, from what I've experienced and what I've seen along micro-credentialing pathways, is that you get really intense, really measured pieces of information that you're able to action. Um, and that's really important. I don't necessarily know that we do a very good job in every academic curriculum of helping students understanding understand the skills that they're getting from the assignments and the courses that they're taking. Um, micro-credentials lay that out very clearly. Um, additionally, as I'm thinking around workload, um, as you mentioned, I have a lot of jobs, but I'm not the only person in that situation across my system. Faculty and staff have multiple hats that they're wearing, and micro-credentials could be the textbook solution of the future. You know, we had a huge, I think, in the last 25 years, leaning a faculty into textbook resources, and some of that was to supplement the workload that they had. Well, imagine now if you had workload or work resources that were developed by industry partners that are kept up to date much quicker than we can keep academic curriculum up to date. They have the resources and the instructional design expertise to have engaging um assignments and assessments. Um, one of my great friends, her name is Dr. Elizabeth Hornsby, and y'all, she might be a great future guest for you. Um, she has become an expert in this space over the last two years, and she can absolutely speak to the breadth and depth of both co-curricular options for micro-credentialing and curricular options for micro-credentialing. And one of the things that she said to me early on in our conversations about this was Katie, I have a doctorate. I have three degrees, I have taken three statistics courses in my life, and I have taught research methods and statistics for my program a handful of times in my career. And correlation and causation was never clearer to me than when I went through the grow with Google data analytics micro-credential. So much to the point that I'm integrating it into my future research methods courses because they can do it a lot better than I can do it in a lot simpler fashion. And so, why would I try to reinvent the wheel if that's there? And so I think there are lots of possibilities, Kevin. I think the thing that's most exciting to me is that this space is like ripe for creation. There's no right or wrong way to do this right now. And I really feel like if we as higher education aren't at the table to talk about how this can be meaningful to the work that we do and how this could articulate to college credit, that there is a very strong possibility that industry and others could say, you don't need higher education, you could just come get seven certs from us and we'll give you this job. And like, yeah, that's a pathway, and that's people employed and yay, learning. But higher education is the lifeblood. And if we're going to be lifelong learning institutions, which is what I think that we should be, then we need to have options for people that meet them where they are when they need them, whether that's before undergraduate, after undergraduate, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

I mean, Kevin, and I'm I'm not talking to you, but like this is a conversation. Like I think about when we talk about career readiness, we'll talk about this on the phone from time to time. And you know, you're reading, I'm reading all these articles now about how little employers think students are coming to their spaces prepared, right? And micro-credentialing is one way when a student gets into a space, whether they've graduated or not, where that can be value added too. So I think it it does a couple of things. It does respond to market needs and organizational needs outside of the realm of higher education. But like we think about this all the time, administrators institute, or I mean, that's not a micro-credential per se, but essentially that is what it is in in many ways, is it's this mini-learning system. And we all have things that we haven't learned. I mean, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but so now this is real Brody brochures in this mix, but like I I couldn't tell you how to use Microsoft Excel. Like, I don't know how I've gotten through my career. Look at Kevin Thomas, look at me like that. Like, it's just never been needed, right? In the work that I've done, I've always had somebody who's been able to do that work.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Like, I can I can do some of the things, and you know, I can filter in in those spaces, but I feel like this is the the the part of the episode of arrested development where the guy comes on narrator. As it turns out, Brody did need to know how to use Excel.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Look, you get to say things, you get to say things professionally that make you vulnerable, and I don't, right? Like, I love that about you, Kevin. You're awesome. Plus, you you're micro-credentialing all the time. Like, I was thinking we'll have to talk about this online. We we gotta talk to our guests. So, so Katie, online learning was supposed to democratize access, right? And we think about COVID and kind of how higher ed responded to that. I think there were lots of things that higher ed did right, and then there were lots of things that higher ed did not do right. So, like if if in some ways, I think it was a great moment for colleges and universities in terms of how we responded, but I think we failed in a lot of other ways. What did we get right and what did we get wrong as we've kind of moved past that time frame and into what I think is a normal time frame where we should be offering online learning in in really innovative ways.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

I don't know why you just said it's a normal time frame. I would totally disagree with you that these are normal times, but yes, we should be expanding online. So, yeah, so honestly, those of us in the online space, nobody was excited for a pandemic and nobody needed a pandemic to test their skill set, but it absolutely was an opportunity for online to shine. And at least around my system, those institutions that had stronger online infrastructure were more successful at implementing and switching over to online remote delivery than those that were not. And I think that taught us a lot of things. Um, for us here in Louisiana, we are prone to weather events, and so weather events um are, you know, uh disruptor for most of our campuses, and some of them are significant enough that it's not a one or two-day closure, it could be weeks, and so COVID taught us we can have a contingency plan. If a hurricane hits Louisiana, our institutions not only can evacuate their students safely, but we can theoretically continue the infrastructure of their curriculum as long as they have access to online. And so that's something that we're leaning into. But I also think there was another mere knee-jerk reaction. The institutions that didn't do it well, the faculty that didn't do it well, the students that did not have a good experience, the students that didn't have access to internet at home.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

That all created an icky feeling around online. And what I was surprised by um was it felt like a knee-jerk reaction from some of our campuses leadership to taper down the online after COVID was no longer a big thing and really try to push people back to campuses, which is where I go back to my comment about grocery stores. People want education the way they want education, and if you can't provide it to them in the modality that they want, they're gonna go somewhere else. So circle back again, Kevin. If you are not online yet, you are late to the game, but you should still come play.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Absolutely. Uh, transition a little bit to leadership and in and mentorship. You've named three leaders who shaped you Dr. Ellen Bonaguro, Dr. Howard Bailey, HB in the house, and uh and now Dr. Rick Gallett. Is that saying Gallo? Um that's a very specific type of gratitude, not just I had good bosses, but naming people that actually gave and provided to you. So, what does it mean to be mentored well and how do you try to pass that on?

SPEAKER_04 53:25

So for me, it was having people that I respected professionally, um, give me guidance around being a good professional. So Ellen was someone who recognized a talent in me that I didn't recognize in myself. Um, but she was also one of those people that if she saw talent in you, she had greater expectations of you. And she made me want to meet her expectations. Um, she also made me clearly understand that you can have the best answer ever, but if you can't articulate it and actionize it, it doesn't really matter. And so she has, I think, partially helped me think thoughtfully around walking into a room, being articulate enough to get my point across, and then having in my back pocket just game plan A through C of how we potentially could get this done. Because if you come to the table with a problem, you better also come with a solution. Howard Bailey taught me a lot about organizations. Um, so HB and I would meet on a weekly basis when I was SGA president at WKU. Um, and many of our conversations were about WKU's history. So I learned how administrators moved throughout their career. I learned the history of WKU and its colleges, I learned about the hot button issues of the late 60s, early 70s when he was an undergraduate student. And it wasn't just a story time, right? It was giving me an orientation as to the cultural history of the campus and the organization, which empowered me to be able to build a strategy and infrastructure to move forward some really important things as an SGA student body president. President Gallo, who is my current boss, um, is just an exceptional leader. Um, he is a person of integrity, uh, he is a person that listens. Um, he is somebody that uh feels quiet and um at the same time carries this really powerful presence with him, too. Um when he uses his voice, he's saying something that means something. Uh the way that he treats people, y'all. Um every time we're on a campus, he says hello to everyone student, faculty, administrator, facilities person, custodial person, everybody is playing a part and he respects every part of the organization. And I can't tell you how much it means to watch somebody who has the great responsibility of leading a system at a statewide level in a pretty critical point in higher education, not allow that crisis and chaos to get to him and to really continue to put energy into relationships and relationship building and building towards what we all have a goal of, which is student success and engagement.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

That's awesome. Let's ask a fun question and we move into the lightning round. So I was super excited about this. You and your husband are working your way through every major league baseball park in the country. Kevin and I love baseball. You're 13 down, 18 to go. Do you so that's a pretty big commitment? What you know, what have you learned? Like, do you have a favorite a favorite spot so far? I mean, that that seems really fun. Like, uh, it's a great project for sure.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

And and we're ending this with we're gonna pick our top three ballparks. In answering Brody's question, do you have a top three?

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Oh, I totally have a top three. Um, so Wrigley, Fenway, uh, and then I would have to say, hmm, actually, the third one's hard, y'all. Wrigley and Fenway are pretty easy. Probably Arizona. The Diamondbacks were pretty cool. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

That's an easy trip. We'll have to make that happen, Kevin.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yeah, I've done a ballpark tour, but I've not seen a game. There, it was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. Okay, love that. That's cool. And do you have what are you knocking out this year?

SPEAKER_04 57:57

Uh, so honestly, y'all, I'm a little behind in in our planning for this year. Um, I think we'll definitely make a game in Bush Stadium. Uh, St. Louis isn't too far of a drive. Um, and so we try to take a long weekend every year and go see one there. Maybe we'll knock out a Houston or a Dallas. Um, we have been to Houston once, haven't been to the new Rangers Park yet. Um, but that's fairly close to us, so that could be something doable. And then dying, y'all, to get to Cleveland. Like, I think that could be a really fun Labor Day trip.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Yeah, that sounds great. Love it. I think it's time for the lightning round. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

Lightning round.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

All right, our quick fireaway questions here. Katie, what's the first job you ever had?

SPEAKER_04 58:49

Uh, the call center at the WKU Alumni Center asking people for money. Fun.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Uh, which ballpark surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Atlanta. It was like very commercial. I was a little sad, y'all. I'm also not gonna help you get a brave sponsorship. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

That's true. We're not getting that today. Uh, best piece of feedback you ever got that you didn't want to hear but needed to.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

Um, sometimes you have to say no.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Yeah, that's good feedback.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Hidden talent, most people who know you professionally have no idea about.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

Hmm. I can do fairly decent impersonations of people. Oh. It's not something I pull out in a professional setting, like not of famous people, like of mutual friends and acquaintances that can make people sort of uncomfortable.

unknown 59:48

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

This this is this is like the bar moment where you're like so-and-so said, and then you pull out so-and-so.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Yeah, Kevin tries to imitate me all the time, he's not very good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Oh, that's so harsh. That's amazing. That's a great talent, and it is. I I do a great Brody brochures, but not either.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:11

I was gonna say, Brody, I don't know that you can be the one that makes the column, whether he's doing it right or not. Like if your mutual friends know it's you when he does it, then it's pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

It's fair. You're ganging up on me. That WKU tie is strong. I get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Um word to describe your leadership style.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:31

Transformational.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

If your career had a tagline right now, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:39

Other duties as a son.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Oh, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

I love that. That's fantastic, Katie. Thank you so much. You survived. You you made it through the pickup meeting.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:51

Awesome. It was a lot of fun, guys. You were right, it's probably the best part of my day.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Oh, love that. Oh, we love hearing that. That's so great. Thank you for being a part of the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Bye, Katie. It was great to meet you. Yeah, good job, Kevin. All right, how much fun. You know how to find them. I listen, we have a party when we have some guests on, and uh, and I Katie and I got together a couple weeks ago and just chatted, and and I knew that this was gonna be a great time, and I knew we were gonna learn in this process. I I'm gonna have to do more on micro-credentialing. I'm gonna have to keep learning in that way, and and and just trying to broaden my skill set, like you're talking about with Excel, right? Like that ship hasn't sailed yet, Brody. Embrace your Excel needs. Yes, I guess I gotta get on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

So we were talking top three ballparks is what we're gonna talk about, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Like, yeah, it's I yeah, I really top three ballparks, and and I think for what we're talking about, I I lean in towards MLB um for this conversation because I think that if you open it up, it can go anywhere, right? Like, I love Notre Dame Stadium, right? Like, I don't think that's part of this conversation. So, top three for me, and I haven't been to a ton, but I have fond memories of of quite a few. Um, I really my favorite ballpark to go watch a game in is Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati. I really go into that ballpark. Gosh, I and I've not been on an opening day. I hear Cincinnati for opening day is tremendous and maybe rivals what occurs at Bush as far as what's occurring there now, probably not in like recent Hall of Famers. It's been a while since Cincinnati's had a team worth of darn. But I I love Great American ballpark. Um, I do I like Bush, but if I was going to pick to go to a game, I would pick and go to old Bush just because that's what I grew up with. And so I would say Bush too, right? As far as the the Bush stadiums. Um, and then I don't have a lot like Arizona's ballpark, I went to on a tour. Um, San Diego's ballpark, I think, is probably where I'm gonna lean here. I haven't gone to a game, but that ballpark is just gorgeous. And and Nationals is in the conversation too. But and and I went to a game at the Metrodome, and that was straight garbage. But I will say I I think I'm putting San Diego's ballpark in my three spot.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

I'll tell you what, I really need to make that West Coast swing. Like Seattle, San Diego, San Francisco. I've heard nothing but great things about those three parks. I I totally agree with you on the Great American Ballpark. It is such a great place to watch a game. The food there is amazing. So good. Get the chicken strips. You would think they're just regular chicken strips. They're not, they're delicious. The the Montgomery barbecue there, right? Some of the Cincinnati local beer is there. It's just a great place to watch a game, too. Kind of looking out on the river. Look, I love Newbush. My my criticism of New Bush is you can't walk around the stadium and see the game. You in Old Bush, you could walk all the way around the stadium and not miss the game if you wanted to. And I don't like that about Newbush, but it's still one of my favorite places. Kind of looking down at the arch, uh, looking looking at the arch, it's it's a it's a great view.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

You know, the other thing here that really messed with it is I went to Great American and then New Bush was built.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

And to me, Newbush is not as good as Great American, and it was like they were trying to replicate it and they just fell short.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

Yeah, that might be true. Look, and then I have visited the three oldest ballparks in this country, and I'm lucky because one of them is in my hometown, Evansville, Indiana. And so Blossy Field always has a soft spot in my heart because of uh the Evansville triplets and then and then a league of their own, right? Kind of growing up, all of that really was is been a great history of that park. But the other two, Wrigley and Fenway, have very diametrically opposed views on this. Fenway is by far my favorite park in the country. I went to a game there in 2015. The the environment outside of the park, and then once you get in, it was unbelievable. It's so clean, and it they've got it really well serviced and accessed, even as old as it is. And look, y'all, and I'm using Katie's yaw, like Wrigley is hard hot garbage. It's hot garbage. And I live in central Illinois, it's hot garbage. It's by far the least favorite place I've ever gone to a game.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

It is amazing for our uh audience when you're watching audio or video right now. When we take our guests off screen at the end, we can still see them if they're hanging out. And at this moment, Katie is dying a little inside. Like she's shaking the head, she's telling us what we're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

I mean, the restroom act the restroom act. Access alone automatically disqualifies Wrigley. Like it's crazy. I have to walk a half mile to get to the bathroom. Like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

If you're gonna sell that, if you gotta pee, you gotta pee.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

I mean, it's just miserable. Katie has chimed in. It's this is blasphemy, and uh it's historic, Brody. And as we end this episode, just like you, my friend. Just like you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

Yeah, we gotta, we gotta get going, don't we? That's right. Okay. Gosh darn it. I've made enemies. I don't I don't know how to use Excel. God, I'm feeling really terrible here today. Well, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. We hope your meetings, whether they're formal or pickup style, are as fun and as meaningful as this one. Until next time, gang. Do good and be nice.