Ep. 44 - Joe Thomas, University of Colorado Boulder

What happens when the Resident Assistant you hired 20 years ago becomes one of higher education's most respected student affairs leaders?

This week, Kevin and Brody welcome Dr. Joe Thomas, Senior Associate Vice Chancellor for Student Life at the University of Colorado Boulder and former NODA President. Together, they dive into what it really takes to help students succeed—from creating a sense of belonging before classes even begin to building campus-wide collaboration that boosted retention without spending another dollar.

Along the way, they debate the year's best (and worst) movies, discuss why success is usually measured in small wins, swap He-Man memories, survive another lightning round, and reveal which movie worlds they'd happily live in for an entire year.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And away we go. Welcome to the pickup meeting. Go ahead and decline that recurring meeting. You never needed it anyway. We've got something better. It's us. It's the pickup meeting. I'm Kevin Thomas, and sitting across from me is the man whose calendar is always booked, but somehow he's always available. Brody Brochier. That was pretty good. Yeah, it was simple, right? I heard from Mike G this week, Mike G listener, um uh who uh said, Hey, your your your intro stuff is really great. I like that, and it makes me laugh every time. And I said, That's what we're really aiming for, is a good bit of laughter to start, because who knows where it's going afterwards. That's right. We can't guarantee humor at all. No, we're not we're not like the movies, and and that's what we're gonna jump to, and we're gonna talk some movies today.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

I love it. For our audience, we're recording in the uh middle of June, and so we're talking movies, and and we're gonna talk some of our best movies and worst movies so far this year. And why are we doing this? Because at the beginning of 2026, I set a goal of seeing 30 movies, and at this moment I'm at 11. But in recording this at the middle of June, it means I've not seen Toy Story 5, I've not seen Spider-Man, I've not seen Moana live action, I've not seen these, and so if my list does not contain these, that's why.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Well, I mean and you're movie theatering movies, right? You're not counting movies you watch at home.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

No, that's not movie theatering. That's just that's watching movies on the side, I guess. I I've not seen that many movies in the movie theater.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I was thinking about that just the other day here recently, but I do like watching movies even at home, and I've watched a couple good ones here lately that were in the movie theater recently and now are through streaming. So you you've seen 11. Like, do you have a like what's the best? What's the worst?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

All right, so the best for sure is Project Hail Mary. Like that was a great watch. Really enjoyed it. Complete crush on Ryan Gosling. It's like anything you put him in, he's just he's fantastic. Fantastic. I'm with you. Yeah, all the way back to Remember the Titans. That's where I remember my Ryan Gosling from. And then, you know, like uh, what's the movie where I don't know what they're trying to find each other and love each other? What is that movie? Yeah, uh huh. I don't know what is that. La La Land was great, yeah. And then there's a couple others that he's in. He's just great in everything, but Project Hail Mary's for sure. My number one. You and I are in agreement in this range, I think, on this one because you urged me to go see this the sheep detectives.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

I sound like a complete idiot every time I tell somebody this that you should go see the sheep detectives. It was fantastic, just gloriously fun.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

And that's on your list too, right? It is, it's probably my favorite movie that I've seen in the movie theater this year. That I mean, that and Project Hail Mary are both fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yeah, and then on the flip side of mine, or the worst movies I've seen this year, and some of this is that it's terrible, right? So, like one is Super Mario Brothers, and I hate to say that because I love some video games, and I think video game movies should be good. The first one was good, the second one was straight garbage. I even if you have kids, it's terrible. I looked at my son while we were watching this in the theater and I said, Hey, do you really want to stick this one out? And he goes, I don't know yet. And we almost left in the middle of the movie. I think I've only left in the middle of the movie one time.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

And what was that movie? Mid 90s, late 90s, two days in the valley, maybe. I can't even remember who was in it. So I'm my brother. I remember when my brother visited us when we were in Iowa one year, and he's like, I've heard great things about this midnight in the garden of good and evil, and it was straight garbage. God, I wanted to leave during that one too. So those are those are two that I really thought were bad. You know, I've watched two movies at home, and I want to talk about one of them for sure, and that's Send Help.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Did you see Send Help? I did not, but it has Rachel McAdams in it. One of my faves. I mean, oh, it's brutal.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Such a hard watch. Kind of fun, kind of terrifying. I mean, I would recommend it if if you like uh psychological thrillers with a little bit of horror mixed in there. It's it's worth your time. Very interesting. I'll have to check that one out. And then I I think I'm pretty much on the same. I I did see Is This Thing On the other day, and I really enjoyed it because you know it's kind of about the struggle of middle-aged manhood, which is kind of fun. And um you had you experienced that once, yeah. That's right. I mean, I'm a senior citizen now, so I don't have to worry about middle-age anymore. That's right. But Will Arnett does a great job. Him and Laura Dern are they're kind of separated, and he decides he's gonna take up stand-up comedy. And he's not great at it, but he really enjoys it. I just think it's kind of fun to watch him progress through the movie uh in that way, right? And then deal with his marriage. It's it's worth a watch. I really enjoyed that too.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

So I went to the theater and saw that one. But out of my 11 movies so far, it's in my number 10 slot. What? Yeah, but that's not it's not because I think it's a bad movie, it's just I think there are nine other movies that I've enjoyed more. Dog on it. Okay, the housemaids was uh fantastic, unexpected, right? But like uh Devil Wears Prada 2 enjoyed it more than that, you know. Like there are ones that are there, but it's it's not like it's bad. I saw He-Man this week, and that was a joy. As somebody that grew up with He-Man, that was so fantastic, it was just fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

My mom sold all of our He-Man stuff at a garage sale, and I'm I'm I'll never forget that in common, and I also did not let her ever forget it. That stuff is so valuable now, and I think we tore the crud out of it, but I still really, really think it would be worth some money if we had all the stuff that we had.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, it would be worth something. Now, I will say my parents tried to make up for this uh in recent years, and they worked with a group and got a 3D printed uh castle of gray skull made in the color, and it had all the pieces, so essentially you could make it again. So they tried to make up for the selling of something that I constantly gave them grief about. And so I do have a 3D replica full size, like to the toy, not to the actual castle, because that would be awkward. Um, but full size in that way that's in my closet. So I tend to like the video game movies less, but the Saturday morning cartoon movies maybe more. I think you would really like He-Man because of how they kind of laugh at themselves.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

That's a you would that movie. Go check that out with her. Tell her I said stuff.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

I think the big controversy with that movie isn't Skeletor's voice really dark and mean, and in the cartoon and Saturday mornings, he had this really weird kind of gravelly voice.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah, it's it I that's probably my least favorite part of it. Yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Uh, so speaking of set success or not successful, uh, in a pivot to higher education conversations here, what you know, when we're working with our teams, when you're working with your team, what does success look like for you and how do you kind of coach those things? Are there things that come up that make you think, well, this is how I'm gonna handle that situation?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

You know, I I think the one thing that we were talking about on the phone the other day, even I I mean, I think I can define what success is. To me, the bigger issue is how quickly we want it to be defined as successful, right? You know, sometimes the things that we're doing and the initiatives that we're working on, they take time to get where you need to be. And so part of it, I think, as a leader is kind of helping folks understand that we have to be patient, right? We need to move forward, we need to keep uh plugging away and assessing and and refining. And uh, you know, we know it's worthwhile if we keep moving towards an end goal. So so to me, it's just really about I think kind of helping people understand that things don't move quickly. I I think about creating the advising centers that at the University of Southern Indiana, and I remember being it took us five years. Yeah, you I know it took us five years to get those centers even built and and housed. You know, so things that are really, really valuable to success sometimes take more time than we want them to take. And part of being a good leader is helping people understand that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, I think this week this has hit me hard, and it's why it came up in our conversation that I have to remember that people are at varying levels of their own success in higher education and their own development in higher education. And for me, I walk into any situation and and I intrinsically like I view things as winning or losing, and that's a terrible way. And my counselor works that with me on that, that's a terrible way to look at things and all of it. So um, I in my phrasing here that may rub some some some people wrong, but like that's that's the view I take. And and so like I think that when I was 25 through 30, 35, it was like I want to win 100 of the time and I want to lose zero. And I think as I've grown and probably grown in education and in experience and all those things, it's it's sometimes you're getting into these interactions and into the work, and sometimes you walk out of it and you won just 20% of what you wanted. And sometimes that 20% is very much worth celebrating. Yeah, to work with young professionals that are still viewing 100% of the time, I need to win 100% of the things, and if they don't, that they view it as a failure. That is something that I'm trying to coach and massage a little bit here because a 20% win is great because a year from now, or six months from now, or two years from now, you get another 20% of it. And you it may be a slower part of winning or a slower part of success, but you're still doing the work. Like we're not running sprints here, we're often running marathons.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah, and the object is really about that progress. You know, we've all hit setbacks before when we're trying to move initiatives forward, whether that's budgetary or culture or lack of willingness to kind of move forward just generally, right? There certain things could be unpopular. You know, we've talked about that before on the show. Sometimes leaders have to make unpopular decisions, but they're decisions that are going to be steeped in ultimately good progress towards something. And and I do think that I do think that uh that message that uh we don't get everything at once, we have to keep working at it, is a good one. And so I I would agree, Kevin, like 20%, you got to take it sometimes. Because the progress is gonna continue if it's a worthwhile initiative.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

And then who gets the credit, right? Like we've talked about this too. Like I'm I'm in a stage in my career where it doesn't matter. I I don't really care. I I want my people to get the credit for the work that's happening. I'm not doing the work, I'm just overseeing the work and maybe providing some support and some budgetary stuff, like but sometimes that becomes a sticking point too.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

It does. And and we recently had this conversation because we wrote an arc article with Matt Markin, and Matt was like, Well, who wants to be first author? And I'm like, I really don't care. And Matt's like, I feel like as a future aspiring president, you should care. And and then Brodie's like, I don't care either. And but I think it's because my approach is if it impacts students and they get the win, I don't really care about the praise. Like, I'm more we than me, and and that's the way I try to focus this. And and so there's a balance there on things for sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah, I remember that conversation differently. I think I said, Yeah, I want to be the first author because oh, did you say it? I don't even know.

unknown 12:47

I did not see it.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

I think I ended up being the first author, though, right? Like they we kind of ended up defaulting to that.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

I think that's true. I think you did more of the work. Maybe that's true. Um, maybe that's true. Speaking of who's going to end up being the first author of this podcast, I guess it's time that we welcome our guest on to the show.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Uh I'd like to welcome uh Joe Thomas to the show. Joe is the uh Senior Associate Vice Chancellor for Student Life at the University of Colorado Boulder. Welcome to the show, Joe.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Good to see you both. Thanks for having me on. That was fun. That was a fun conversation to listen in on.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, you it's fun because we can see you off screen. And so it's like, are we are we are we getting Joe going here, right? It's early morning in Colorado on a Friday. We got we got to get Joe uh ready to ready to be on the show. Now, audience, I want to self-admit uh that Joe and I have not connected in over 20 years, but this is a weird moment for me because 20 years ago at Ball State University, chirp chirp, that didn't really happen when we were there, Joe, but like I don't know. We need the ding for that, Kevin. We need the ding. Oh shoot, I gotta ding myself. Yes, I don't I was in and this is a weird thing because I remember this being unique to ball state when we did gosh dang it, when we did the hiring process, um I there was a draft. Do you and do you do this in your your experience, Joe? No, okay. The draft doesn't exist. I thought this was the strangest thing, and bro, you may not know about this. So there's a draft for RAs, yeah. And so you get together with all the other hall staff, and like somebody has the first pick and the second pick and this and that. And I can remember like drafting Joe Thomas to be an RA. Like, and and and so like sitting there with uh assistant uh hall director Kate Kaminsky, and and who are we gonna draft and what's gonna happen? And I remember Joe being an early draft pick. I couldn't tell you how early in the draft Joe was picked, but like that is a surreal thing that that even it may still occur there, I don't know, but like still processed. Do you do you remember being a part of this? Like is the selection process?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Oh gosh, yes, yeah, and how nerve-wracking it was as a student. And I wanted that job so badly, and you have your sights on a specific team or a specific building, and it's out of your control. And I I remember being super super excited about the complex that we were in, and you know, the the telecommunication and communication majors that were with us, since that's what I was studying at the time. Uh, but it it worked out great.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

20 years later, team Kevin Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Team Kevin Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Share his last name Brayton Cloven Clevinger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

May it rest in peace. It's gone.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

It's gone. They knocked it down. Yeah, yeah. Well, Joe, uh, you've had quite the journey, right? You've got a lot of time in uh higher education uh in Indiana. Um, and you recently moved uh six, seven years ago to Colorado and and took this role. And since then, you've done things like the Buff Undergraduate Success Initiative. Um, and we're gonna talk a little bit about that. Um, you've been involved with NOTA in some really high-profile ways, but I I think that well, let's at least start this thing off with um you have a bachelor's in geography with a concentration in meteorology and and climatology. I think most people who end up as the senior associate vice chancellor for life uh don't necessarily know what the weather patterns are. And so, like, how did this happen where you got to this point? I mean, was it like it's gonna be really sunny in Colorado and in my career in student affairs? So here we go.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Yeah. And who knew someone named Kevin Thomas would change my whole life? And I had planned all along to be this TV weather person, weather personality. I was so obsessed with storms living in the Midwest. And then I got to Ball State. I'm the classic case, I think, where my first year I had this incredible experience and wanted to do everything. So I got involved as an RA, got involved as an orientation leader, and then had the classic folks telling me, hey, this is a career that you can do, and really learned. I'll never forget it. It was my my junior year. I was sitting in a in a meteorology climatology class, looking around, thinking, oh, everyone is very into this topic, and I could care less. I just want to get back to work. And my work was helping students transition. I was creating early start programs for incoming freshmen at Ball State. Um, and and it was the passion. I remember having the conversation with my parents. Um, I'm not wasting my degree, I just don't plan to use it directly. That was yeah, that was a fun conversation. Oh, 100%. Yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

I mean, if you're in higher ed, we've all had that conversation, haven't we?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

That's true. One way or another. I don't I don't know anyone who aspired going into college, aspired to be a higher education professional.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

That's right. I was gonna be a lawyer, Kevin. What were you gonna be? You were gonna be a singer, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I was gonna sing, yeah. And all I did and Joe will know this is there used to be Patiole at Texas Roadhouse in in Muncie, Indiana. And so that's where I would do my singing at. And that so he he knows me in the post-musical world, but it just got down to karaoke time.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

So let's talk NOTA a little bit, Joe, right? You you just uh you were elected president, I think, in 2023. You've just completed your presidency uh from an international organization that's kind of focused on orientation, transition, retention. And you've been quoted in national press talking about how orientation has fundamentally changed post-pandemic. That students who used to say, hey, don't make me come to campus are now saying we want to be there, we want to connect. What's shifted? Why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

I think it I think the reason it matters is still the same. It's still about connection to students, it's still about feeling comfortable on a college campus before the chaos of the fall semester. Uh, what has changed is the engagement and how students have wanted to or even learned how to engage. I think post-pandemic, we saw maybe 2023, actually, as we started to bring more and more back to campus in-person things, students would show up in droves, but it would be the most uncomfortable large campus event because no one knew what to do at the time. It was it was a bizarre experience. And then we saw small progress each year, 24, 2024, 25. And actually, we commented just this last year of this feels like we're back and it's better than it was before the pandemic because students are showing up still and students are excited to engage and engage in person. And maybe that means we're on devices, but we're together, but we're also engaged together, which has not always been the case.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

And orientation programs have been responding to that, I think, in that we all went online very quickly during the pandemic, of course. And then as folks have re-emerged from that, the style of orientation is very different than it was before. You have less or fewer and fewer talking heads, and you have more peer-to-peer interaction than anything. I mean, our entire program is pretty much small group time with studenters, and then your academic professionals and your advising. Students come to orientation because A, where am I going to live on in the fall? And then B, what are my classes going to be? So we want to make sure we're addressing those two things, at least in our model, in the summer model. And of course, there's various ways to do that. But students want to feel comfortable and want to feel, and we'll probably use this word a lot, that they belong and that they matter on a college campus. And that starts before official move-in day, I think.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Joe, one of the things I I want to do a quick follow-up, Kevin, one of the things that we've been uh kind of trying to tackle here is thinking about different ways to deliver orientation. I think you have three different, you have three different ways that students can orient themselves to the campus. Can you talk about the decision to move in that direction and and what what have been some of the challenges and benefits of that?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Yeah, I think I being involved in NOTA and getting exposed to what's going on across the country in programs is really cool to see how we all ultimately do see the same trends and follow each other. I think uh you you offer orientation online, and that is a very transactional functional experience. You can get the resources you need. Uh, you may have some interactions with folks, but we know it's not the same. Uh so it's sort of a checkbox approach of here's what we have to do. As long as programs have an in-person engagement experience that builds on that, I think that that's a strong program and can work. And we do see those models still. It's in today's financial times, it's a really affordable way to do it for not only the institution, but for the students. You know, being in Boulder at Tourist City in the summer, it's not an easy place to get to. And we keep that in mind in that we have multiple program types all the time. So a sort of choose your own adventure to ensure that our programs are are accessible. Um, and so that's for our students, you can choose in person, you can choose virtual, you can choose to come right in the fall semester and take care of business then out of our 7,400 incoming students, about 6,500 this summer are coming in person. That's great. So that tells you that they will figure it out. And we, of course, have financial help and programs to help students who are who are forced to make a decision based on that. We don't want that to be the case. And so we do the overnight model because we think an overnight experience is really pivotal for students as 17 or 18-year-olds at that time for the most part to explore what that means in a safe environment and before the whole building is full of other students. And then a sort of you have the fall model, which is we don't do much in the summer. When you come here, you move in, you go through an orientation experience all at once, so that it's just easier and more seamless in that way, which also has its benefits. And I think that there's an enrollment piece to that too, in what's happening on your college campus and how do you see orientation and onboarding as a yield program, as a retention program? Uh, different institutions, I think, have different lenses on that. We we are pretty confident in our confirms in the spring semester, in that orientation has not shown us much difference. It helps you know narrow the field a little bit. But um I think pulling all your partners together to figure out what's best for your culture and your institution, given those dynamics, is the key. It it the key to students is getting to know each other and feeling comfortable with friends more than anything.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

That's great, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I love that a lot. And you recently, well, in an Ed Serge article, you you said orientation is truly the kickoff to retention. And this has been something that I've been trying to frame the conversation on our campus that really that belonging starts to occur the moment we start to recruit a student. And so, how do you make them feel at home? But I agree that orientation is just such a key part of that, and like what happens in those hours that you're talking about on campus, whether it's virtual format or or you know uh overnight or the more uh fall heavy aspect of things. For for skeptics that think orientation is just logistics, information overload, and and icebreakers, um, like why does that first impression matter so much to that eventual retention success?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Lots of reasons. Uh, and I I say it kick starts things because in the recruitment season, you're you're making some decisions at this point. At orientation, we are assuming uh at least that you have chosen us and we have chosen you. So now we have the dating period is is is in its next phase almost. And so when I do the welcome in our orientation, I talk about you're you are officially a student here. You are a buff, or you are an ex-mascot, and you have committed to us and you've committed to our values and our culture. And we're going to show you what that means over the next couple of days, which I think is equally as important as being prepared for the academic experience, because this is the place you're calling home and spending hours upon hours and weeks and months of dedicating your life to and making sure that you are a part of that community and understand the community's norms is part of feeling comfortable and allowing you to show up to the classroom in the most successful way. We talk about that in student affairs that we're going to take care of your students when they're at their best and when we're at when they're at their worst, because we want them to show up as their best selves in the classroom, not worrying about all the things that are going on in the world, their world, our world outside of that. So orientation is meant to address all of those things. And it's it's always funny about icebreakers because what do you do at any retreat that you go to, even as professional staff? You're going to kick it off, probably with some sort of activity to break the ice, literally. And there are different levels of that. But as a 17 and 18-year-old, that's the way to do it is sort of forced fun and um being silly and showing that it's okay to make fun of yourself and to um connect with people who you wouldn't have in a typical environment. You know, growing up, I had a high school class of 48 students, and we were all fairly alike because it was small town Midwest. And I was going to an institution much larger than that as a first-year student. And I was excited to be around students or other folks who didn't think or talk like me, but I wouldn't have done it if there weren't structures to help that happen. Just at that developmental time of my life, um, we're teaching young adults how to be extroverted, how to network at a small scale, knowing that we're going to build on that in the four years. So that is all pivotal at that time so that when the fall comes around and they're showing up to class, they have some natural skills to do that on their own.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah. You mentioned the icebreaker part of things that I got to reflect on a meeting I had yesterday. It was our student success retreat. And we're not a large team of student success, but there are about 10 people in the room and we're having conversations. I'm kicking things off with a division update and then a look at the strategic plan and how it's going to impact this office. And somebody said to the director, Are we not doing an icebreaker? And she goes, No, we're we're not gonna do an icebreaker. And literal applause broke out from not doing an icebreaker. So there's a point in the need for them for sure, but there's also some celebration that occurs when you don't have to do them too.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Look, I think we do I just think everyone has a unique story to tell. And anytime that we can give students a chance to do that, and orientation feels like a place where that's important to me. I I think students start to feel better connected and and more uh an important part of the community. It is a delicate balance. I've even thought about that with our leadership group, Kevin. We've talked about this. Like, what do our meetings look like generally? And I usually have a question that I'll ask in the front of those meetings and they're fun. And I think they're generally designed to build community within the space, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

I get it, I get it. But I will say, uh, and you know this of me. I'm also somebody that when I go into a session at a conference and they're like, this is gonna be really engaging, and you all are gonna get a chance to learn from each other. And I'm like, I'm out of here. You're the worst, Kevin. I'm not doing it. Like, this is no fun for me. My anxiety spikes.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

So, so Joe, um Kevin, I'm gonna let you talk about the uh Buffalo Undergraduate Success Initiative. But I see a hole in some of our prep, and I want to get to it because we haven't really talked about this other than we say we got our start in housing. So let's talk about housing a little bit, Joe, right? You oversee that at UC Boulder. All of us got our starts in housing, but I haven't been in housing in 20, 25 years. Kevin, I assume you're kind of at the same time frame. What what do we need to know about the housing experience now? And how how have you and your role really tried to integrate that experience into overall success for students?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah, that's a great question. My journey there is complicated at best, too, because as a student leader who got involved and being an RA and being exposed to as a 19-year-old, being responsible for 17 and 18-year-olds, you know, at that stage in life is it's a lot. And we expect a lot of our student leaders because of their connected nature to that experience. And in my experience with Kevin, that was a tumultuous time in my life. That I not only was I 19 and and responsible for 60 other first-year students, I was going through some stuff myself and how to balance that. It was it was a lot. So having that experience as a student has, of course, helped me 20 years later. And this is my first official role involved in housing. I've been enrollment management, I've done academic affairs, and then when I came to Boulder, housing wasn't part of my role. So I've sort of evolved into that and over the last year really had to uh dive into the current science and the current trends in housing, which has for me been more about capital development and renovations and what's going on structurally with the buildings to build community rather than the inside student experience. But it's nice in my portfolio to have three functional areas that are working together toward that comprehensive residential experience via facilities, the administrative side, and then the traditional residence life, which is with our student student leaders. And I think what is changing is the delicate balance of what students are telling us that they want in housing and what they want in their environment and what we know they need. You know, we have a lot of data about why it's important for students to live together in social environments. And we're at this, we're at this friction point of students wanting more and more privacy. So we're all being tasked with how do you balance that? How do you keep it affordable and honor privacy for students, but full well knowing I don't want a first-year student in a single bedroom apartment who never has to interact with someone else outside their space. So that's a lot of the conversation now because the premise of housing and living with folks who you are taking class with and seeing every day is still really critical, which is why we have a first-year live-on requirement. We believe that as part of our philosophy on a sort of traditional four-year institution route. But uh inside is during the year, I think that we are experiencing what higher edge education is across the board, in that we are we have so much data on students and how do we use that in a proactive and ethical way in the world of AI because we can see earlier and earlier when a student's struggling. And so from a structural lens of higher education, we're focused more and more on the collaborations, both within student affairs, but also outside. And there's always this divide between academic affairs and student affairs. But when you see those academic support resources and faculty being part of our residential experience, the results are, I mean, they're they're through the roof amazing. And the return on investment there is wild via sense of belonging increasing, GPA is increasing and retention ultimately. So being able to see those students who are isolated, who are having some sort of financial problem or having a problem in their chemistry course early on, and having the appropriate person intervene because we have so many people wrapped around our students at this point and knowing who they will go to or who they should go to has been a really complicated part of the journey that we're still figuring out. But when you do that, I think that there's this incredible combination of results that create this epic sort of student experience that it's really hard not to succeed because you're seen. You're seen by someone on campus who matters to you as an individual and you see that I matter to that individual too, which is really the crux of what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

We've heard that kind of language, like being seen from a couple of our other guests. And I I do think from an institutional perspective, that's a great approach. And it it leads right into what Kevin's going to talk about here, I think.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah, let's let's get into that. Uh the Buff Undergraduate Success Initiative, or I'm guessing you're just calling bus.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

The bus. The bus. You got it.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

You were one of four bus drivers, along with the chief information officer, chief communications officer, and senior vice provost, and you met weekly. You set semester projects, you measured everything. Uh inside higher ed covered it. And the hook was that uh CU Boulder hit a decade-high first-year retention rate. Walk us what uh through what was broken before a bus existed, and then what the team actually built.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

It's uh my career, I I think is long from over, at least I hope so in some ways. Uh, and I think it that the the bus initiative, which oh my gosh, the metaphors around a bus are were exhausting at the time, um, but we've embraced them all. Of the most simplest of fixes and challenges that institutions of higher education are inherently not meant or not structured to support. I think we are meant to support them, but we're not structured to support them because of the silos uh in which exist. And I think that this experience is a once-in-a-lifetime thing in higher education where the right people were there at the right time with the with the absolute same goal in mind. You're not just saying it, you are believing it and living it. And there was data to back up the need. So, what was broken is for us, when we were looking at peer institutions in various ways, whether it's athletics division uh at the time, the Pac-12 and uh AAU institutions, similar scope and size, we were spending a lot of money around quote unquote student success. And that's measured a couple of different ways. And we were marked pretty low in our retention and graduation rates. Like what so the problem we were trying to solve was why are we spending so much money and not seeing the results that other institutions are doing? And it's because of the everyone the of through 13 different units doing the same sort of program in really expensive ways for niche students and not talking to each other about what's working or not working. So that group was tasked with that. You don't have any money. Your job is to make change, make change fast. And we had the provost, the uh senior operating officer, and the chancellor's support in that, which was critical too. When the chancellor is saying, This is where we're going as an institution and this is what we're fixing, get on board with it.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

It it mattered, and it took some time for people to understand what we were doing and how we were doing it. It took some time for us to figure that out too. But once bus became a known entity on campus, everyone wanted to be a part of it. Hey, we're doing this. How do we get involved in bus? How do we uh everyone wanted more money? Of course, we always had to say we're giving money. We're trying to save money, actually.

unknown 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Um, and that that probably took a little over a year. But the results that we were seeing just by having the conversation around what barriers students were uh were experiencing was amazing. The first step that we did was interview students via focus groups, via anecdotes, and creating problems. A student a student was struggling to register for classes, a student could never find X class, a student couldn't find X building, a student didn't know how to do something. Noting all of those and then creating teams to help solve those really seemingly small problems that really added up pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah, that's that's fascinating. Uh I for the audience that's listening, I I think, and and we talked about this uh recently when we had Christy Fireball on for at Denver and one of the efforts that she was doing, and and and and similar type of question that I asked her, as I feel like a lot of campuses do these student success type committees and they get lost in report out. How did you avoid that?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

I don't know. How did we avoid that? That's a great question. I think because we were so tactical and held ourselves accountable in a true project management sort of style, in that we had sprints and we would have results at the end of each of those sprints that that I think at the time were about three weeks. And we were very transparent about what we were working on when. You could go to our website at that time, any point in time, and see what's in sprint seven, what's in sprint eight, and where's my initiative and is it on the list? And if so, why why not? Um, but it what was different, I think, were the people involved here, the common mission that was that was not about one thing. It wasn't about just solving logistical system problems for students that our IT person was focused on. It wasn't about just making students feel more connected and having more traditions on campus, which was my involvement. It was about what are students telling us that's broken. One of those things is as a really simple example, but we saw true data-driven results on was our um the our misalignment between schools and colleges around academic standing. Each school or college had different levels of where you were and what it was called, what it was called uh an alert status, a probation status, and students didn't know what to do when you got that status uh if you weren't in good standing, because maybe I'm on probation in business, but then I could move to arts and sciences and be okay there. What does that look like? So having our schools, colleges come together and say, we're going to be consistent about this.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

You know, do it so quickly was uh, I mean, in higher education terms, pretty amazing. They they were changing policies within themselves to align for the greater good of the student experience.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Joe, based on your response, I think one of the other lessons that I take from this, and I I often remind folks, you know, sometimes making change isn't about more resources or more money. It's about a better alignment of the resources and the money. And your your response kind of hits at that. I I assume that that's part of the appeal of this group, too, is that the goal maybe is to save money, but ultimately it's about aligning resources and dollars in ways that are just better for students.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

We didn't spend a dime doing any of this. And it was frustrating at times because I think that that's not our natural inclination of solving problems. Give me more resources. Yes. It was it forced a true conversation of we need to stop doing X and sunsetting that. And we're terrible at that in higher education because we're going to take those funds and those human and business resources and move them to this initiative. And no one's losing anything here. Yeah, we just know and we all can see and be on the same page that this is the right decision to make based on where we are now and what our students are facing right now. I didn't think it could be done. And it I it was kind of a scary example of oh, we don't always have to spend a lot more money to really create uh, I mean, proven evidence-driven change, yeah, which was magical.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

So one of the things that strikes me about bus is kind of that explicit commitment to ask how does this initiative impact marginalized and minoritized students specifically? Like you've talked about I I know in some of these articles, diversifying incoming class more than ever, meeting an infrastructure that meets the needs of students where they are. What does that actually look like in practice, Joe? Um, not just in the charge document, but kind of on the ground, right? Like doing with the work.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah, I I think we have all learned the premise of if we take care and pay closest attention to our students who are in most need of our support. And you can define that in, of course, a variety, dozens of different ways, that you take care of the entire community. That's right. Your students who, for whatever data point or experience you're looking at, if you're working to solve that problem and that community gets healthier and better and is feel seen more and they feel like they matter and they have the resources they need, that the ripple effect there is huge. And it's great for everyone in the campus community. And that was the collective approach that we took in how we were looking at which issues to prioritize and where, especially for us at a predominantly white institution, I mean a predominantly white institution, knowing full well of the conversations of the enrollment cliff. But for us in our current dynamics, we've not talked about it that way. We've talked about it as changing demographics for us. And are we ready for the future student who's coming to Boulder? And in a lot of ways, at that time, we were not. And we were able to say that we are not ready for what's happening in two and three years. So this is what we're gonna do now because being ready in fall of 2026 is going to take this series of events to ensure we're serving those students at that time the right way. And I to your point earlier, Brody, it doesn't just happen overnight, it's taking three years of planning and guessing and predictions to make sure we're ready for that. And that's hard to do.

unknown 42:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Gosh, I I just love that response so much, Joe. Thanks. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah, really great. I I'm interested in your perspective because you you've sat in some chairs recently um with NOTA, but then also I know you're involved with NASPA as well. Um, and and so you know this, and and you know this from your work and on your campus as well, is that higher education is under this intense pressure right now, funding uncertainty and enrollment cliffs, public criticism and skepticism, uh debate about what college is even for from a value standpoint. You're at a flagship, R1 with real resources, national visibility. Um what keeps you happy and optimistic in your job? And then like what are the things that you're what are the things keeping you up at night as well, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Well, all those things you just mentioned keeping up at night for every night. Um we've talked about this a lot recently on campus. Actually, uh as the work, uh especially last couple of years has got has just gotten more and more challenging in different ways. And we're tired of the word unprecedented because basically at this point it's all precedented. And it it's I think I've heard education talked about consistently of these crossroads and these times of change. Like we always have been. It's just what it what's the crossroad we're at now. And I think I've I talked to my team about really cherishing those key moments and special times on a college campus that remind us of why we do what we do. Command's miss season, yeah, being the the quintessential example, I think, of you know, I it it may be an extra weekend of work to our teams, but stand there and relish in that moment because there are students walking across that stage who are doing that because of you. And it may, you may not even know it, uh, but your your persistence, your Presence has really mattered to those students in lots of different ways that are not measurable, quite frankly. And I we talked about earlier the needing the um sort of recognition of doing something and being the first author as an example. We high in academia where there's real higher hierarchy, I think that that's hard to do. We have to, as student affairs professionals, be comfortable being in the background, knowing I help nudge some things that no one's ever going to know about that help that student walk across that stage. And that brings me really great joy and really great optimism because we're talking about those experiences as a team, and you learn about these moments that you didn't think about before just through one individual story of wow, I talked to that student as a first-year student, and they were having a problem with their girlfriend at the time. And that student came back to me and said that that conversation really made an impact. I had a supervisor who talked to me about a career in higher education, and how I want to do that. I know our grad numbers are struggling in that, but I'm still hearing that from our student leaders about this incredible experience that college provides. And for me, I stand in the middle of uh for us Farrent Field, which is sort of the magical place, and you just look around at these that our incredible campus, but I do this everywhere I go. It's such a unique environment. You don't, you don't, in talking to my friends who are in corporate or other nonprofits, it's just not the same. Uh, when you are working with people at this critical developmental stage of life and seeing the incredible change that happens over for four years, you know, just in the cleanest of senses, knowing that we work with a lot of other students, uh, to there's just nothing else I would want to do because the incredible development and growth that happens over time, regardless of what's going on in the world.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, thank you. Listening, you just I'm moving to Colorado, Brody. See you. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

It does help when there are mountains in the background for sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

I I feel like because I hired you once, it means you have to hire me once. Isn't that the way this works? I just went to Colorado and we have a good time.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Um positions are open now.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

That's right. No, I I appreciate the thoughtfulness in your answer, and and so many of your answers build in collaboration. And and I think that you know the way you talk about that is something that people forget. And we we kind of talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the winning and being successful and and and those roles. It's never done in a silo, it's done by collaborating because students view us as one institution and not an office within an institution. And so um, kudos to your success on the things you're doing because I think that collaboration, those connections, those relationships are really uh letting you shine.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Thank you. I don't see any other way to do it. And it's really frustrating when I know that someone else is coming to the table for the credit and in my opinion for the wrong reasons. Yeah, and I think an important lesson for me in an executive leadership role has been how to navigate those people in those situations and still be successful and still get what's done for students. And sometimes that means letting the ego win and fine. I don't, I think Kevin, you said it earlier. I don't fine, you can take the credit for that because students are gonna win. So that's okay. All the while we are still seeking out what our career is meant to be and the legacies that we may want to bring. It it's that I think that's the most interesting piece of working in administration in higher education is yeah, I mean, what you do and what's on your CV and your resume matters in a lot of different ways. And not work having never worked in corporate, I can't do a true comparison, but it does feel different. It feels like we do have to work with and around egos a lot. And I'm I'm sure I've been one of those egos before.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Yeah, we've all been there.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah. I mean, this kind of hits at my next question, and maybe you've already answered it, but is there a belief that you had early in your career about student affairs or institutional leadership? Something that maybe you felt like you were certain about that you've now maybe had to completely unlearn?

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Hmm. That's a great question. My career started off in orientation today. I know. Pick it up, Kevin. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

What was in the so that's good.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Uh a funny example is the first example that comes to mind, which honestly is terrible, but I will own it as being part of it now. Is I grew up in orientation and my research is all on the first year experience. That's the passion of mine, and it will always be because of the experience that I had as a student. And orientation is behind the scenes a very logistical process. So your orientation folks on campus are masterful at spreadsheets and masterful at making sure the right people are in the right space by the minute. And working at that time, early on in my career with our student affairs folks, orientation was under enrollment management at the time, so that was our lens of orientation. Working with our student affairs folks, and especially in housing, like, whoa, it's just messy over there. Like, there, there's nothing ever going on that feels like it's it's in control. And now being on that side of the world, like, oh, it's because we are literally dealing with lives of teenagers. So it is never going to be as clean as a spreadsheet. So I have this newfound respect for the various pieces of the field. And I that's one thing that I've been so privileged and fortunate to experience is the science behind enrollment management and how you need to do that in collaboration with other folks across campus because now, as a receiver of that, not being at the table when we're talking enrollment predictions and not having the beds for those students is a problem. And I'm proud to say that that is not the case at our institution. We're all working on that together. But it how do we all sort of see each other's roles and those annoyances that we have with the enrollment folks, with the student affairs folks, and with even academic affairs partners? But I will just know it's June, it's housing assignment season for us. We know exactly the people who are gonna rub the wrong way, we know exactly who's going to be upset about these processes, and we've tweaked that over time to help tell a story better. And that's one thing I've learned in my position is folks feel a certain way or have a certain perception of the work we do because they don't know. They don't know behind the scenes how complicated it is to take a student's housing application that has, I think ours has 70 some different points of data or references, and how you match that to at least one thing that the student wants. And you know, we're doing it on our campus for 7,000 plus students and have a wait list every year. So it's very rare that you're gonna get the thing that you want. Um, we've recently been on a roadshow telling folks of here's why this is challenging, and here's how, here's one student's adventure in that, and how it was impossible to find the right spot because of all those different criteria. Because I think we're doing it in the best way that we can for an individual student while doing it for the masses, and that's that's something that's really challenging in higher education. But when you're doing it right, you're thinking about the individual experience and applying it to scale and still trying to maintain both of those worlds, making sure the huge world feels small to one person, and they're like, My data that I entered in my application did matter, and I see why I got here. Uh, campus has never cared to understand that they're just mad that the student they don't understand why a student didn't get in their community. Yeah, well, here's the 47 reasons why.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Right. Joe, I think this is our last question before we get to the lightning round, which is maybe the round that makes people the most nervous. So get it.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

But it's it's weather related, so he'll be good. Yeah, yeah, we can do that. I mean, he he knows about lightning. I do.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

That's right. That's right. Um, you know, like I in my mind, you know, we were we were back, uh RA hall director relationship, and and then I knew you had left uh um um ball state. Sorry, I'm I moved my thing here dang. Um that we had left ball state, and so then we we we moved on. And then I remember just like in the last five years or so, it was like go to president Joe Thomas. And I'm like, my gosh, like what's happened in the between? And so, like, your journey has been so fascinating. So, whether uh at Boulder or wherever your career is gonna go, what mountains are you still trying to climb? Like, where's Joe Thomas going next?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Where is Joe Thomas going next? That is a terrible question. And I say that, I say that in jest, of course, but I always I talked to my team about this too. Of in an interview, the one question I despise is where's your career, where's your career going to be in five years, or what's your goal? Right, and and I say that because of my career path, in that none of the positions I took were predictable or really aspiring. It was just right place, right time, right challenge.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

And uh it has worked out in in a lot of ways, I think, in my career to help vary my experience across. And so, from a career perspective, the next mountain is I think climbing alongside the rest of the world and ensuring that education is still a priority and education still matters, and education is still accessible. I it's less, I am so thrilled at the adventure that I've been able to have in higher education at this point in time. So that is less important to me because I've been able to dabble in so many different areas. To me, it's more about the fight around higher education because we, as uh folks who are on the ground with this every day, get to see the literal life-changing impacts that it has. And I think that that's what scares me the most, too, of this return on investment sentiment. Not from a we shouldn't be challenged in that because we should, because higher education is so expensive now, um, but more so from the we need to make sure that it remains that way. And are we really creating the experience that students need to be successful, however, they define success through career readiness, through onward and upward in graduate and um post-grad graduate education. So that's a mountain that I'm certainly going to continue climbing. Uh personally, growing up in the Midwest, it's not typically a culture that you leave the Midwest. And so that has been quite the mountain to climb and move a thousand miles away from my family. Luckily, I live in a place where folks like to visit, so that's not a good purpose. Um, but I found this new energy in myself, and and part of that is political too, in that I in growing up in small rural communities and now I'm in a more urban environment out in the west, the climate is different, uh, both through literal meteorological climate and uh through the people who I'm around, whereas it's such an outdoor experience here. Literally climbing 14ers, as we call them. So those mountains that are above 14,000 feet in Colorado, there's 50 some of them, uh, is a personal mountain I'm hoping to climb. We try to do one every summer because it's so intense, and folks literally will climb them all in a row. So I'm at the low end of that intensity, but still but it's still enjoying that journey. Yeah, 100% through the pain and the tears.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

We've reached that time, it's the lightning round.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Lightning round.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

You want to go first, Kat? Oh, that's you, man. I I did the last one. This is how this works. I go, you go.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

All right, so we'll start with an easy one. Coffee, tea, soda. How do you stay hyped? Coffee. Yes, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Coffee. Yep, pretty simple. Coffee with cream.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Awesome. One word your team would use to describe your leadership style.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Neurotic came to mind. All right. I I would actually say lighthearted. I I really value bringing that to you know these teams who have such hard jobs. Uh, we have to find the joy and the laughter in it. Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to explain my answer, so I'll be brief.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

No, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

You're great. You it's your it's your round for sure. Okay. So so we we you just mentioned the 14ers and and you're in Boulder. Best outdoor place you've visited that isn't Colorado.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Not too far away, probably Moab, Utah. Uh, Arches National Park Canyon Lands. There's such a variety of wilderness there. It's amazing and out of this world. It's like you're on a different planet.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Must go.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Orientation day, the most chaotic thing that's ever happened that you can talk about publicly. Ooh, that's that's the tricky part.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

It never fails on the first day of orientation that weather is going to be involved because you make all plans about how people are parking and queuing and uh getting to the residence hall to check in. And we just had this experience on Monday where you know, there's 300 days of sun in Colorado. We don't worry about precipitation a whole lot, but you better believe it poured rain and golf ball size hail on Monday afternoon during the one hour of check-in of orientation. Oh, my poor team. And that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

I'm guessing because of your background, people give you weather grief just nonstop, or do they know?

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Oh, yes. Yeah, yep. Joe, you should have told us this was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Yeah, right. How did you not know, Joe? Right. Yeah. Do you have a favorite food spot in Boulder that we need to know about?

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Favorite food spot would probably be a place called Avanti. It's food food hall style, but it's more about the ambiance because there's a rooftop that's all open and you are, I mean, just surrounded by gorgeous beauty, uh, nature, both the city of Boulder and the flat irons that are around. And you get to choose your own adventure, whether it's pizza, whether it's Greek food, Thai food, all the options are there.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Awesome. Love it. Uh, best piece of feedback you ever received that you absolutely did not want to hear at that time.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

That doesn't feel like a lightning round question. That's deep.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

We probably do take that one out of this one, bro. It's it's too deep. It's a hard question.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

The I I get the feedback of um how I'm able to listen with my eyes, in that people I have a way about me, and this is what I've been told that people just spill all of their information. It's you know, one of those people who you don't ask any questions, but suddenly you know someone's whole life story. And as someone who did orientation for seven plus years as a director, that was extroverted to the the to the max. I am so introverted now after all of that. And so I'm like, I didn't ask you any of these questions, I don't want to know any of this. Yeah, please don't know me. Yeah, right, yeah. But okay, I sit and nod, and I and I care deeply, but it is it takes so much energy to absorb that from someone else.

unknown 59:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

So if your career had a walk-up song, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 59:16

Um, I lived by one republic. It's a song about just putting yourself out there and and challenging yourself, and it's gonna be painful, but you will overcome and be better for it.

SPEAKER_02 59:27

I love it. I love it. I just wanted you too once. They were great.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Joe Thomas, you you are you are off the hot seat, and just want to thank you so much for being on the show. You've been fantastic, and thanks for going on this journey with us.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

No, thanks for even thinking about me for it. I've really I've had a good time. Hopefully, I've added some value to the field. But um, we're really enjoyed the content.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

You did great today, Joe. Absolutely. Yeah, this was great. Can't wait to connect again. Let's let's hope it's not another 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Yeah, absolutely. We we can make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

All right, we'll do that. Thank you, Joe. Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

I'm gonna tell you, Kevin was so fun. He was awesome. Yeah. I this this is one of these things where we talk about this podcast and the opportunities that have come from it, and we reach out to folks, and sometimes it's like, well, like, how's this gonna go? Um, because you know, we've had guests on that we haven't connected with in five, 10, 15, 20 years. This might be the most that it's been. And like I remember Joe in the way that I remember Joe, and and and and obviously his career has evolved to some very, very amazing places. And and Joe gave me credit, and he's like, Well, you know, you you started this, and it's like, yeah, but like I was hiring an RA that I thought was going to be great at connecting with students, and to see that connection move to this place has just been uh it's it's amazing. And and like I I he he gave me some credit for the start, and that's all I'll take, right? Because he's done all of it, and uh, he's just an amazing guy, and and it was so wonderful to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

Yeah, I just get angry when we have guests like that on the show because I'm like, oh, there's another person that's better than me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

No, different way, but yes, the uh I mean his insights are so valuable, right? That that bus initiative and and kind of that that idea of the alignment of resources, that's sticking with me. And it's just a good reminder when you go back to your campuses to do the work, that the answer isn't always more money or more resources. And and I think in in the world we're living in now, oftentimes it's not gonna be more money or more resources. So that's where the lesson really matters is the alignment becomes the most important part and the collaborative relationships and bringing people together, sorting out the work so that it can be done more effectively.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Oh god, it kills it. I just I I'm really gonna think about this conversation for a long while, and so I'm I'm pumped that our audience and and listeners are gonna get a chance to enjoy. But we talked a lot about what we want to do in the world, and so let's let's let's let's go back to this movie theme that we started with. Yes. If I we really we'd have a top three, but I know our worlds tend to to dive into more. This is top three options that if you had to be in a movie, like you had to ingrain yourself and be literally living in the movie for a full year, what would the movie be?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Good golly. You made me laugh. And uh maybe it's gonna be these are Brody deficiency days, but like I thought about three movies that are kind of fun. Uh I the first one I went with was Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Like, I hold on, you just want to eat sweets all day, or you want the other part? Okay. As long as I can be the good kid, right? Like, I don't want to be the bad kid, like the TV kid or the the the guy that ends up jumping into the chocolate, like or even to to sing and dance. Yeah, that would be great. And and then look, I was an 80s kid, so you know, Ferris Bueller's day off days uh day off would be fantastic, like being out in Chicago kind of doing some things, as long as the the cubs are playing the Cardinals when I'm in in Wrigley, I'd be happy there. I think I could do that for a year. Like, what's what's Ferris Bueller's first year of college gonna look like? That'd be super fun, yeah, for sure. And then the last one, uh I said John Wick.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

Oh, holy harshness. Who you killing?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Like the vengeance part.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Like, let's go. I want to take care of all of my enemies. Um, you want the post dog being done, and like let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:57

So maybe that's bad. Like, I don't have that much pent up frustration in me, but I just laughed when you asked the question. It would be fun to kind of exist in that world for a little bit. How about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

That's so fun. All right, I'm gonna pick three, and then I'm gonna tell you who my honorable mentions were. And so my my number one, and and I think this in the post-Voldemort dying experience, right? Also alert, I think it'd be fun to be in the Harry Potter world, right? Like, and I'll cast some spells and have some fun. Like it just seems like it would have been a good world to be in in the post-trauma from you know, near death experience and hot wars and all the things. I think that would be fun. Uh, the other one, and and this gets into uh, I was on a show recently, and and the the podcast host asked, you know, what would that career have been if you could go back and do it differently in a way and not do higher education? And I said, you know, I really would have liked to find my way into sport management and oversight. And so the one that came to my mind is money ball, right? And being a part of that athletic front office and and making those decisions and doing it differently and thinking differently and building a team up. And like I think I would love to be front office uh of a sports franchise. I probably don't understand all the things, but I would love it. And then the last that is there, uh, I'm gonna go with the Sandlot. Oh, that's a great choice. How fun would that be just to play baseball and be a teenager again and hang out with your friends and go to the pool and barbecue and hit balls over a fence and have a dog chase you? You know, that just seems like a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

Yeah, it's got for me like a stand by me kind of movie, right? That that coming of age, that transition into a news phase of your life. That that is a that's a great one too.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

Kevin, you had three great ones. All right, so my honorable mentions here, and and you and I talked about this last night when we were chatting a little bit, for sure, both of our lists is F1. Oh my god, right, just to be able to go race F1 cars and have the talent to do it, but just go and drive fast. Oh my gosh. So that's on my list. Uh, the Shire in Lord of the Rings. So again, post them saving the world to be just out there in the green grass and living life and smoking things and enjoying things, you know, like it just seems like it'd be a great time, you know. Gandalf's always there smoking some stuff. Let's go, Gandalf. Um, and then the other one that was there uh in and I just think it's just because of the technology part of things, and and this gets me into my Marvel world a little bit is Wakanda. Like, let's go. Yeah, yeah. Those were my those are my ones I was struggling to not include.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Golly, Kevin, you had a lot of movies. You've got me kind of fired up to watch more movies now. Uh Kat and I are already talking about what movies we're gonna watch this this weekend, so I gotta I gotta get on that. Yeah, well, good, okay. That was a lot of fun, Kevin. I really like that category. We kind of came up with that on the fly last night. I really uh you did a great job. That was I enjoyed that immensely. Fantastic. We gotta close things out though, right? Like that's right. That's it for this edition of the P Pickup Meeting gang. Uh I hope all your meetings, whether they're formal or pickup style, are as fun and as meaningful as this one. Until next time, let's just do good and be nice.