Ep. 43 - A "Just Us" Episode

It's another "Just Us" episode, and that means anything can happen! Kevin and Brody kick things off by reminiscing about back-to-school shopping, Trapper Keepers, NFL pencils, thermostat battles, surviving the summer heat, and the simple joys (or frustrations) of keeping a lawn alive. They also wrap things up with their latest Top 3 list, sharing the states they still hope to visit.

Between the laughs, the conversation turns to a timely discussion about the changing perception of higher education. Drawing on recent public opinion data, Kevin and Brody explore why confidence in colleges may be rebounding, the growing concerns about affordability and value, and why it's more important than ever for higher education professionals to tell the stories of student success. It's a thoughtful conversation packed with humor, perspective, and plenty of the unscripted banter that makes these "Just Us" episodes so much fun.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Sorry, Matt. And away we go. Welcome to the pickup meeting. Go ahead and minimize your email inbox. Nothing good is happening there. I'm Kevin Thomas, and sitting across from me is Brody Brochier's, a guy who schedules a meeting to prepare for a meeting that could have been a text message. It's a just us episode. How you doing, Brody?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Well, uh, I I I don't like that. That that wasn't fun. Why? Do you have you ever done that before? No. Oh, okay. Well, thanks for clarifying.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Then we don't have to talk about it next time.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I guess I was sending you topics today, like five minutes before we went on the air, though. So that's fair. Oh, let's talk about this. Here's some data, here's some stuff. And you're like, maybe next time.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

So like, yeah, maybe next time. For for our audience, I think the episodes in which we have a guest, we are always pretty thoroughly prepared for because we don't want to look like idiots in front of the guests, realizing that all of these go out to the world, and so that's a different factor. And that we're generally idiots or can be idiots. That's true, but when it's a just us episode, uh, we're probably it's probably as close to the phone calls as you're gonna get without language being an issue and without a lot of sports talk and probably a little more life talk. Yeah, yeah, and idiocy can reign supreme in these sessions for sure. They really can. And speaking of idiocy, let's transition here because it's July 29th, and it's that time of the year where all I'm seeing are commercials about back to school, and I'm gonna tell you, I don't know what's happening. It's every year as if we've not done this ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, I mean, and it feels like it comes earlier, and they're they're making you really nervous that if you don't have these supplies, you're gonna be in deep trouble, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

If your kid goes to school without pencils on the first day, they're never going to learn and be able to read and write. I mean, it's not that dramatic, but it does feel that way. And you walk into Target, and it's it if one sign was there, it would be fine. But whether it's Target or Walmart or wherever, Costco, I don't know where you're doing your shopping, wherever you're going into, it is like 45 signs are up back to school. Did you know it's around the corner? And I'm like, this isn't Christmas, like you don't have to tell us in October. Like it this is a thing. Please stop. We know that school is coming. You have lots of opinions about this, it's really got your goat. It just feels so aggressive. You're sounding aggressive. I it makes me angry. These companies have turned back to school into a holiday for them. Yeah, that you're you're not wrong. I will say there are wonderful people in this world that will use back to school shopping and deals to donate to kids or families or groups that are not able to afford and do that. And so that is the only time I would say that these sales are necessary so that they can do some strategic shopping.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Look, Kevin, I I'm gonna get nostalgic here as a student. I I mean, I got kind of excited about those things, and and look, in the 80s, we had way better back to school things. I mean, now you got a laptop, I mean, who cares about that? Right when I went back to school in the 80s, trapper keepers, man trapper keepers.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

There it is. Let's go. I would say that was like 90s too, because I in the 80s I don't know that I had trapper keeper.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And finding one that kind of represented you, right? Like not just a plain one, but maybe I don't know, Star Wars or what whatever it is you were into at the time. Fantastic. And then folders did it have on the inside. And then Kevin, nothing, and so this is getting a little sportsy, but I don't care. Nothing was better than the NFL team pencils. Like, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, and do you remember as well they had folders? Yeah, and you would get folders for the year, yes, and it and for me it would be like, okay, I want the Cardinals folder for this, and then there was a year that tops had folders, and so you would had Ozzy Smith and Vince Coleman and and all these folks, and there are certain times when the cost was a determining factor in which of those you'd get. Why am I spending more for this Ozzy Smith one? Because it's Ozzy Smith, it's cool. Let's go, let's do this. That's right. I mean, so the supplies themselves on board, the ads and hit me over the head, bite me. Are we gonna have to edit that?

unknown 5:15

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Kevin, that was fun. You you really had an opinion about that. I enjoyed it. I did. I tried to bring us back to fun related to school supplies, and look, to be honest, none of us have to worry about those ads anymore. My kids are growing, your kids last year, right? Last year, his last year of high school, this is it. They've got it sorted, they they know what supplies they need, yeah. Yeah, they do, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Uh, it's summer, still summer, and and and if you've listened to the previous episodes, you're now thinking, are they really talking about summer again? We're not, but we have to in a way, where I think that this is a conversation of summer activities going on, and that's good, and that happens. Like you go for your walk, you go to the ball game, you you do the things you're doing, but by late July here, get me in the air conditioner. It's hot, Don. No doubt. It's warm, and uh I think it's a good time to binge some TV shows and and and spend it in the air conditioning, just taking it in. Is is that your approach, or are you uh uh get out and still do things in j in late July?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

I mean, I like heat better than cold. I I know when I was running pretty pretty regularly when I was really into it, you know, nothing made me happier than waking up in the morning when it was 80 degrees and going out at 5:30 in the morning, six o'clock in the morning, and just getting a good sweat on. Like I really I always enjoyed that. Now, I could even run when it was 100 degrees. I didn't always like that as much, but nothing really would stop me from getting out and and getting a good run in. And so I kind of think about my summer that way. Look, I love the air conditioning, I keep the house pretty cold, no question. What is the house set on? Uh right now the house is set at 68, but you when when you start to get to heat indexes of 100, I might move it down to 67 or 66.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, I can't do that anymore. I mean, I really cannot. I turned 40 something and all of a sudden I'm cold all the time. And really, I yeah, I can't do it. I can't go that cold. Now, I will say the air unit at my apartment is a liar because it's a it's a it's a big wall unit. I'm on the third floor of a facility, and and and so, but like during the night, I will turn it down to 72, and I'm gonna tell you there's no way that that is 72 because it is chilly. Uh, but during the day, when I'm just sitting in the apartment, I'm turning it to 75 so the air's not going. And again, there's no way it's 75. It's a lie. So I couldn't tell you what mine is right now. Are you an eight? Are you an 80-year-old man? I am. I'm trying to be more and more like you in all ways. It's 75. It's not really though. It's just it's it's pretend the units got the wrong numbers.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Catherine and I go to war about this from time to time. Like, I'll come home some days when she's at the house, and it'll be back up to 68, 70 degrees in the summer, and then at night I'll turn it down. That's because she's probably paying the bills in social media. She is she look, the other thing I think that's really interesting inside is I think ceiling fans really work, like they're they're very helpful when you're in the house, keeping it cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, they do a decent job. It's it's not AC, but they do a decent job.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

But the other part of this, right? Our exterior conversation here is by July 29th, and I and I'm not a homeowner right now, and I'm okay with that. Yeah, there's two factions of what's going on. I still need to have green grass, and my yard looks like a mess. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I I think you know, I don't really have a yard in the regular sense anymore. I have like native plants in my front yard and kind of landscaping in my back. I uh we do have kind of this side, we do have this side area in between the two houses that has grass. My old neighbors used to just mow that all the time. So we didn't even have to mow it. Our new neighbor, we have new neighbors this summer, and they don't automatically mow it. So we bought like a push mower that's not uh doesn't not gas operated, just one of the old-fashioned ones, which are super fun. And so every now and then I have to do that. And that grass is pretty high right now, but I can see in the summer where it would stop growing. But we water the flowers, we do not have a our house is so old that we have to take buckets of water in our house and then pour them on the flowers, so it's a little bit more of a thing, but I do it because Kat really likes those flowers to stay alive, and I get it because she takes care of the yard mostly.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Do do have this always been a thing, like from a yard standpoint, you're not a yard guy.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

I mean, I don't mind mowing the yard, like the house that we had in Indiana, we had a we it took about an hour, hour and a half to push push mow the yard with a gas mower, but I always found it to be kind of fun. It was like extra exercise, like getting your steps in, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, no, no, it was always good for that, but I would say I always wanted my yard to look nice, and that became a little bit of a obsession when I mowed the yard more often, and so I don't know that I ever got to this point where I was okay with the burnt brown that would would happen. Although in Arkansas, there's a certain season here where everybody's yard just turns to this real disgusting brown, and that's just what it is. But because it's all the same type of grass, I don't know. I'm not a grass expert here, I'm sure there's a word for that, too. Yes, there is. I don't know what it is, and I'm not googling it right now because that's knowledge I don't need in my brain. Are are you not a stoner then? I I feel like this is inappropriate for this conversation. What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 11:27

I was just trying to have a little fun, Kevin.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Oh, okay. Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, can get with the program, my man. Woo!

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Maybe I am smarter than you. Wow. All right, so on that note, let's talk about higher ed. Let's do it. I am somebody that believes that the stories that we tell matter, and we've had this conversation, we've done presentations on this. Yes, we have. And I think one of the things that's occurring is public confidence in higher education is a tremendously bad rap right now. It does. And so we kind of talked about this uh in in weeks previous of looking at some of the things that are out there, and what we found is something that I don't think people are talking about enough, which is data recently is showing an unexpected tick upward. So let's look at some numbers that are there, and and and yes, this is as research heavy as we get here, folks. According to Gallup and Lumina, America's confidence in higher education rose to 42%. And now you may be saying that's not great, but that's up from an all-time historic low of 36%. That's the first measurable increase in public confidence in a decade.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Well, one, I think that's good. Yeah. Because as someone who's lived or worked on a college campus since 1989, I've I've seen the transformational effects of a college degree in real time across multiple four-year cycles, right? And and and most of the data suggests that a college degree is better than not a college degree in terms of overall well-being and health. And I know that that's not automatically the message that uh resonates with folks, right? Trying to understand that, just general earning power, but other things, uh, access to health care, generally, healthier folks, more uh more engaged citizens. All those things come with a college degree. So those are some great data points. I don't know that they're the best talking points, but overall, I would say it's really good that more and more folks are thinking this way, or that we're we're maybe rebounding a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Is my thought on the data part of this is the story is still hard to tell. It is when you're talking about 42%. This is the conversation when institutions, uh, regional institutions look at retention and student success and say, we had 70% or graduation rates of being 50% still means 30% and 50% didn't make it. You know, and and so this is a similar number to that. I think that the jump up is a nice start, and and and you have to start to tick up, it can't continue to go down, and that would remain an issue. The other piece that's there is the uh survey had Americans expressing significantly higher confidence in two-year and community colleges at 56% than they do in traditional four-year institutions. That was a little surprising to me as well. But I think some of that is in this focus of career. Yes, and the idea that the two-year school can provide a path that isn't necessarily four years of immense debt and four years of time when there's certain professions that the two-year degree will help you thrive in.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, I mean, I think the trades are an amazing option for students that want to do trades. I mean, that's the other thing is you you do have to have a skill or a want-to in those spaces to do those things. You know, so when I hear people say the trades are a great option, they absolutely are. If you want to do that, I mean, but they're not great if that's not what you want to do. And so to me, it's you know, college also kind of I think helps students figure out what it is they want to do, whether it's a two-year or a four-year institution.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I think the the the thing that we get to here when we're talking about value, because the next part of this conversation gets a little political, and that's not where this show is gone, and and I don't think we're really going there today. Um, but there's a partisan gap in this where 66% of Democrats express high confidence in four-year colleges, and that number drops to 40% amongst independents and 26% among Republicans. That's troubling, and that's troubling for so many reasons, but it's also one of these things where all of the folks that would say higher education is not doing what it's supposed to do really get into this perceived lack of practical utility and the high price tag. How can we do a better job of telling a story and telling the the truth of what's occurring on our campus given those tides of skepticism?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah, on the cost front, uh it's a really hard proposition, don't you think, man? I I mean people need to be able to afford to go to college. And and you know, I went to college in 1989, and I had I had a job during school, and then I had a job in the summer, and those jobs generally helped me pay for tuition, even in the late 80s and early 90s. And I was making $3.05 an hour in the cafeteria when I was working at Indiana University my freshman year, right? I made a little bit more my sophomore year, but that could pay for school. And now summer jobs can't pay for school, right? Like that's that's part of the issue, is the cost has kind of out outrun wages for students. And even finding jobs for students can get a little bit harder. There's no question about that. So I think the cost proposition is a hard one, and we have to find continue to find ways to get states, I think, and institutions to think about that differently. But um, in my space, it's not something that I can control. I I think the the message that I send to students is still that it's a good investment in your own personal development, and ultimately it's gonna be good. But it it that that doesn't always work, right? To me, it's about keeping as many doors open as possible and trying to share the story that way. And that investment comes with some initial costs, but ultimately it's gonna be better.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

I was talking to uh a friend, uh Turney Brother from college the other day that does not work in higher education, but he's about to get involved in some higher ed aspects of things. And one of the things that he brought up is he said, What is the difference uh now between college students and whenever we were in college together?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

And with that point that you mentioned about work, and and I don't think I've ever worked a job where I paid got paid three dollars and five cents or three fifty or whatever it was. That that was pre-me. That's that 10-year difference that's getting yes, it is. Um but I did talk to him about that being a huge part of this, is that the balance of money and priorities and all the things going on is a competing priority with the fact that I would say many, many, many more students are working jobs, and so all of a sudden they're doing 10, 20, 20 to 40 hours a week compared to when we went, and it was like I work in a computer lab. This is great. I do my homework and I get paid five or six dollars an hour. Right, not a necessity, but it is something that is happening, and that I feel like is less. I feel more people have jobs, sometimes multiple jobs, while balancing a number of hours, and and and I think that is a reality of the students, which then it gets into that conversation of value. And we have got to do a better job on campuses of selling that value to the students that are coming, but the family, but then also just screaming it from the rafters and not being afraid to say, look at the good that's happening. And it gets back to me to that notion of we've got to ensure that students and families understand that we're here to help them with their not their needs, not that we are here to help say how great we are.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah. That's 100% true. And and I I think the other thing, uh, this is going to be very liberal artsy of me. I have a liberal arts degree, and and we know some of the data suggests that liberal arts folks do just fine after several years post-graduation in terms of earnings. Um, I sometimes have had to joke with parents, you know, my my undergraduate degree was in political science, and I did okay because sometimes parents will come back at you and say, Well, you know, what can you do with an art degree? What can you do with an economics degree? What can you do with these liberal arts degrees? And and folks turn out okay. And I always say, I turned out okay. And I remember a parent said to me, Well, but you're you, and I'm like, Of course, that's right. I mean, there the the other thing is there are no guarantees, but part of the experience too, the learning piece is an important piece, and maybe we don't remember everything, but kind of getting committed to learning and and a process to me is really important. Kind of being exposed to new and different things through the classroom is an another part of this that I just don't think we talk about enough generally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

No, I I I talk about this a lot at preview events uh on campus, and and on any campus I've been on. At some point, there are gonna be hundreds of people graduating at the same time. What's the difference in that? Because they're all gonna have a degree that says their name and what they graduate with, and 50 of them are gonna say the same thing, 60 of them are gonna say the same thing. So the experience matters the most. I like where things are going towards career being a greater focus of the education outcomes. I do like that because I think it matters to what we're doing. I think I get a little more nervous at this point because some degrees are not going to do well in the metrics that are there when you compare it against what high school graduates. Make versus those those particular students. Psychology comes to mind on most of our campuses. Psychology is going to be a big program. And when you look at just the bachelor's degree outcomes of a psychology degree, uh, from a career standpoint and a salary standpoint, it's not that different from a high school graduate. And that's a that's a talking point that I think people will use to talk about value of education. And that's kind of a dangerous point that's there. But what's missing is that in the psychology field, you go and get the master's or you go and just go straight to get the doctorate. And then that's how you all of a sudden are making more money in the field. And I think people tend to just look at it in this way. Here's the talking point. This is what we're going to talk about, value of higher education. And I think that gets dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

It is. And I would also say it's really about how are you going to market the skills that you've developed in that space too, right? And I think more and more of the best companies are really looking at those critical thinking skills, the ability to communicate effectively. I don't want to be cliche. Those are things that are happening during that time you're a college student. And you know, one of the things I tell talk to my daughters about, you know, my my youngest daughter the other day was kind of like, God, I don't really want to go to work and I'm not feeling really motivated. That's a whole nother topic. And I'm like, yeah, just imagine if you were in college and and and taking courses right now. Like you people want to get out of there as quickly as possible. And I always think about those four years as being some of the best years of my life, right? And you know, when you leave, you're going to the real world. Whether you get a college degree or not, you're going to have to start working, you're in the grind. And if you're not doing something you really want to do, uh it's going to be hard, right? That that's the other piece to this. And I think college and a college degree gives people the most options to kind of find work that's meaningful to them, that's really important to them. And so that's something I think we should help students grapple with while they're here is making a lot of money can matter. And but ultimately, I think I just saw a study. We're gonna have to, I'll have to maybe preface or get this article into the YouTube uh piece. But there was a study here recently that suggests that money's an important piece, but in terms of making meaning in our work, it's just not as important as some of the other things, right? Like purpose and and helping others and finding meaning in the work or the organization where we work.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Money matters, but it's not the most important thing in some instances. It's a conversation that I don't think is going anywhere, but that we have to do a better job of saying telling all sides.

unknown 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

I think that we're gonna hear a lot from media that will talk about the negatives that are there because the talking points are a little easier, but it means that in higher education, we've got to be champions of our own success. And I kind of want to wrap it up here with some of the reasons it lists that the public is skeptical of higher education fell into three major buckets. 38% cited political or ideological agendas, 32% said that institutions have the wrong focus and fail to teach practical, relevant career skills. But this is the part of my me that really says uh this last bucket that says this number can't grow much and not be an issue, which is 24% cited the unsustainable inflation of cost and student expenses. Yeah. I think we're getting close to that point. Yeah. We are getting close to that point with a lot of different institutions trying to do a lot of things to keep education affordable, but trying to do that at times when states are not being overly supportive. Matter of fact, if you have a state that's supportive, you're cheering that and kind of saying we're lucky, as opposed to what most states are going through, and where you're not getting a lot of love and support from the federal government and that support either. Cost is a consideration and really at a tipping point that if there continues to go up, I don't know how we all function as well as we need to. And I think that's where you start to see a lot of places closing down pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, and I sometimes put blinders on too, because most of my experiences have been at places where it's primarily been traditionally aged, residential, you know, 18 to 22-year-olds. And I also understand, right, that college isn't that anymore, really. Uh uh I mean, from a demographics perspective, a lot of people are coming back to school, they're looking for quicker pathways, they're looking for online pathways, they're they're using the college degree to maybe uh move up in their career. And so I I think also recognizing that is important for me because those three things that you just mentioned all impact a larger demographic than our traditionally aged students. My take is generally once we have traditionally aged students on our campuses, they understand the value of a college degree or the value of at least being at college, right? And kind of what that freedom and and opportunity gives them. Uh, but I I think there's a whole demographic that we're missing in that space when we start to describe that. The only other thing that I would say too, Kevin, is I have found this to be frustrating, but I and I think it's real. And I don't know that I have a good solution for it, but I think the idea that when we graduate from college, that these things automatically happen, right? That I find a good job right away, that I'm making $100,000 right away. Like I don't think that we have automatically prepared students for the grind that is the real world in some instances. And um, I don't know that I have good answers for that. I think there are legitimate concerns that young people should have about what things are going to look like after college, but it's not auto, you don't you don't automatically get there. You can't automatically buy the $300,000 house or $400,000 house and and have a six-figure salary. That takes time to get to. And I think we've got a culture maybe where folks aren't really understanding that, or not in a way that's as meaningful as it needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Before we move to our top three, uh let's just ask this question. Uh, I went to Murray State University. If I went to Murray State University today, I still think it would be a choice that I could make because it's affordable. I'm curious if you think that that would still apply to 18-year-old Brody trying to go to your university that you went to at that time because the costs have gotten different. I think I'd still be able to go, but it'd be harder. It would be much harder. Yeah, I agree. And and that's what families are facing is a much harder decision. All right, how about a top three today? Yeah, let's go, let's go. We need to get off that depressing topic because I think we've got lots of work to do there still. We do. Uh states you've never been to but want to go to. And I'm gonna do this quick because I know we gotta we gotta get to a wrap-up point, too. All right, my first two are easy for me. Okay, Alaska and Hawaii. Oh that's not in that order, but I I think those are unique states that I've not been to and I would like to go to. That's fair. My third uh is Massachusetts. I've never been. What? I know. Like you've never been to Boston? That's true. I've never been to Boston.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Good golly, Boston is a great place.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

I've been there. Yeah, and there are other states that I think can be on that list, right? But those are the three that came to mind. And and there's like I think I would like certain aspects of Montana, but in general, I also think I would say, well, this seems like a lot of outdoor stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I'm not a hunter or a fisherman for sure. What are your three? Well, I mean, we were talking about this. You've never been to Boston, I've never been to New York City, so I think I mean I've been to New York State, but like in terms of famous cities, Massa you've never been to Massachusetts, and Boston is in Massachusetts, obviously. But I've been to New York, but I've never been to New York City. So that's a city I'd want to get to. I I'll I'll do states that you did not mention, although Alaska and Hawaii would certainly be great states to visit, and I've not been to either one. Uh, I picked three. I picked South Carolina. I've never been to South Carolina. You were kind of surprised by that. I am. I've never been, I think Washington would be, I've never been to Washington, the state of Washington. I got to get to Seattle and uh Rhode Island. I just had a colleague who uh talked about how great Rhode Island was. He was just there, and I was like, oh yeah, Providence would be fun. So those are my three. Simple. I think those are good three. Yeah, good three. I'm kind of surprised I haven't been to those three.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, I am too. The South Carolina one surprised me.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

All right. Well, that was quick and easy. Just us. Just us. Well, gang, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting, a just us episode. We hope all your pickup meetings, whether formal or pickup style, are as fun and as meaningful as this one. Until the next time, gang, let's just do good and be nice. How about it?