Co-Directors: Nathan Webster and Charlotte Boye-Christensen

Welcome to the eight edition of NOW NOW.
We’re recording this on Sunday, May 10th, 2026.

My name is Charlotte Boye-Christensen, Artistic Director of NOW-ID, and the host of this podcast.

Today, we’re shifting the format a little. Instead of a single voice guiding the episode, this is a conversation. Nathan Webster joins me, and together we’ll spend some time thinking out loud, touching on what it means to work closely with another artist, Nathan is a founding director of NOW-ID where he wears many hats. He was born in Vancouver and is an Architect who has worked in Western Canada and in the United States 

This conversation is less about arriving at clear answers and more about sitting inside the questions, following where they lead, and seeing what emerges in the space between two perspectives.

So, this episode is a bit more open, a bit more conversational.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Now now. Welcome to our interview series where we discuss art and politics and explore the creative act relative to our current challenging political times. With engaged thinkers, makers, occasional experts, and some hot and bothered souls.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Welcome to this ninth edition of Now Now. We're recording this on Sunday, April 26, 2026. My name is Shadboy Christensen, Artistic Director of Now ID, and the host of this podcast. Today we're shifting the format a little bit. Instead of a single voice guiding the episode, this is a conversation. Nathan Webster joins me, and together we'll spend some time thinking out loud, touching on what it means to work closely with another artist, how creative exchange actually unfolds and the role friendship plays in all of that. It's less about arriving at clear answers and more about sitting inside of the questions, following where they lead and seeing what emerges in the space between two perspectives. So this episode is a bit more open and a bit more conversational. And on that note, welcome, Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Hello, Charlotte.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

So you had this idea, and so I'm gonna actually give it over to you to sort of start this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Excellent. So as you might notice, I don't really have a list of clear questions, but I do have some in my mind and a few kind of good bullet points. And I am excited about this. I actually think there's something quite uh a rich vein that we can tap into here via uh this podcast format. Um, both uh not only for us to have a good conversation amongst ourselves, but beyond that uh indulgence to uh do as we do, where sometimes uh the dialogue we get to have as partners, which we sometimes have trouble separating between life being life partners and the creative work. Actually, sometimes that uh on that in that in-between space, we actually come up with some good ideas that could turn into projects perhaps, but also perhaps something that might inspire others to engage in some creative act or with each other or with us. So yeah, I'm excited to be here. We're in Vancouver. It's beautiful outside. Um and uh maybe just to start, I will jump in. Um you and I are co-authoring, mostly you, a book right now called Forming and Falling. Forming Falling, excuse me. And um a lot of what's in there is um kind of a reflection of you um your history, where you've lived, moving around the world. Um can you touch on this a little bit as to uh your trajectory in terms of where you've lived and what does it mean to you to be in a place to feel like you're in a place and to settle that?

SPEAKER_02 3:24

That's a good question. Uh yeah, quick note. I think uh the book also plays a strong emphasis on the sort of the vital role that place plays in in our site-specific work, uh, with no idea kind of identifying, interpreting, and how we ultimately respond to a site. Um but yes, to answer your question, um my life I think has in many ways followed a more nomadic path, um, which I think has influenced how I think about place and movement. I grew up in uh Denmark, and then at the age of four, we moved to the Middle East and we lived there for several years. Um and while we're there, um we traveled around the region a lot and kind of got familiarized with that part of the world, which was kind of exciting as a four-year-old to be stuck in the desert. Um I know it was a little bit intimidating, but I always always kind of had that like level of excitement, I think, and curiosity uh sort of layered into my experiences and a little bit of terror once in a while. But um we, when um my dad's contract ended, my parents had the idea that we should drive all the way back uh to Copenhagen. Actually, at that point it was like a different part of Denmark that we drove back to. Um and so we spent uh four weeks uh traveling from Qatar through Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Syria and uh Turkey and all the way back. And it's sort of that experience uh was so formative for me, I think, and foundational in terms of just sort of seeing the world and just leaning into sort of um sort of that idea of an invitation to be uh sort of uh curious about um not only places, but also cultures and languages and senses, et cetera, et cetera, sensory experiences. So um, and then it just continued on from there. Um we moved to Holland for a couple of years, and then we moved back to Denmark, and then my dad moved to Borneo and Australia and Holland, and so I always kind of was traveling between both Denmark and somewhere else. And then um I moved to London when I was quite young to go to conservatory when I was still in my teens, and then from there I moved to New York. And anyway, uh long story short, there's been a lot of travel in my life, and uh I've always kind of uh sort of wanted that adventurous kind of uh experience in my career. Um, so I think travel has kind of been a guiding principle uh in sort of jobs that I sought out and uh opportunities uh that I was seeking. Um because I think that all of these cultural experiences uh have very much formed who I am as an artist and where I see my work in the world. Um so long story short, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Well, and I I've traveled a little bit, not as much as you, or sorry, traveled, lived in different places as well. Again, not as much as you. Um and I see that. I I I I feel uh that experience in you, your breadth of interests and experience and curiosity, and see how uh it's part of how you engage, bring uh bring yourself as part of what you bring to the world. Um one one one angle on it though, and I think reflecting on us where we're at in our life right now, perhaps, but I'm not necessarily making you talk about where we are right now, but really coming back to has you have you found that this that that urge, this this kind of almost beaten into your genetics from your family, but also in terms of the trajectory of your career, do you find it difficult to stay in one place long? I I've known people, say for example, we call them the the military brat in in America who uh may react uh aversely to the fact that their parents had them moving around as a child, and so therefore they must stay put. But then there's also some who could just cannot get that urge to move out of their system. Yeah. Do you feel like you have to keep moving? Is it a struggle to stay in one place?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Uh that's funny. Um, you know, it's so interesting because I have two older siblings and they had a very different kind of uh response to us traveling this much when we were kids. They're staying put. Like, or I just I uh maybe it's because I was so much younger when it started, so it's just always been part of like how I've seen the world. Um and it is hard for me to stay put. I also think my profession, particularly the reality of working as a freelance choreographer, which I've done for many years. Um actually, I think I've worked as a freelance choreographer throughout my whole career, even though I've simultaneously obviously also had um a lot of full-time positions, but um, but that career sort of naturally lends itself to kind of um mobility. Uh it's a career structure that often requires you to follow opportunities as they arise, to be responsive to where the work is happening, rather than expecting it to come to you. At the same time, I was very intentional about seeking out places and companies early on that I felt drawn to, and I was fortunate to have opportunities emerge in places like um Bauhaus in Germany to uh Havana, Cuba, um Milwaukee in New York City, and um Anaheim in the Netherlands, and the list goes on. Um, right out of school, I spent a year actually in Singapore teaching at LaSalle College of the Arts. And during that time, I also worked with the Singapore Dance Theater and created my first site-specific commission, which was hugely pivotal in my career at uh Alliance Française, an experience that was incredibly significant in shaping my artistic direction and expanding how my work could exist in different contexts. And each of these experiences opened doors internationally, not just in terms of employment, but in terms of perspective and approach. Um from Singapore, I moved on to Mexico City. Um, and that decision introduced me to an entirely different artistic network and uh and market. And looking back, many of these choices were deeply intertwined with the um demands and possibilities of the career that I've chosen, where a movement between places isn't just sort of incidental, but really often sort of essential, I think, to um growth and uh opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

I know that you also you relate strongly, like you're the the work we do, the work you do, will often ground itself in a ref as a reflection of the place, whether it's a venue or a city or something like that. So I know that places are incredibly important to you in your work. I know another thing, like you also, um this kind of grows a little bit from those earlier questions, um you also have this longing in a way for Denmark, of which you also really strongly relate to for so many reasons, and yet you left.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yeah. I think what I have like longings for, it's an interesting thing because I I read this famous Danish uh author who said that this just recently, and I I'm um paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact quote, but she talks about language as kind of being a strong uh sense of giving one a strong sense of who one is. And I think that's such a something that I've actually never really thought about. Um because I was sort of I went to an English school already at the age of four, so like English has also kind of been part of my trajectory, I guess, as a human being uh in the world and part of my DNA.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

But always English in different contexts learning. Uh I can't remember if it was a British school in the Middle East and an American school in in the Netherlands, so even within the English, it's a that's why I have this like insane accent that nobody can place.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

But but that just to kind of return to your question, because I think this idea of language is actually one of the things that I'm longing for at times, because I do think that sort of primarily that's that's my language, even though I've I actually rarely teach in Danish. Um I always teach in English. Um, so and I always choreograph in English, even when I'm back in Denmark. So in that sense, it's uh because there's so much of the terminology that I've I've learned in in English, I'm learning in Danish um for many reasons. Um so in that sense, it's it's an interesting sort of struggle. But it is, I I sort of like I think I forever will have like one foot in one place and one foot in another place. Like I think what sort of uh like um uh like connects me deeply to a place is very much to do with relationships. Uh and obviously our relationship is a strong one with soapy. In that sense, um, like that pulls me into this place. Uh, but I think that that's sort of that's a sort of uh an important thing to kind of mention that like relationships in reality are are the things that kind of at the end of the day are sort of what connects you to a community, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So yeah, and I've heard you say that one thing that literally does what you just said and connects you to a community is the relationships that you have there. And often you're brought to a place where you you've arranged to come to a place for work and you are integrated sometimes for short times, really short times, but even in that you connect to uh the person that brought you there, uh their their families, uh their students, their dancers. Um and it's a really quick kind of like integration into a place. So I I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

And I have deep like relationships with people like that I've known for many, many years, like uh who I started working with many years ago, and I still have those relationships. I mean, that's kind of part of my profession though, and also yours, right, in terms of networking and so kind of cultivating those relationships, not just before the like the the sort of opportunities for work, but also because that's kind of like part of who we are and function in the world, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Don't you find absolutely and I know for you too, that functioning again, as I was saying earlier, kind of blurs the boundary a little bit between I don't know what kind of just a casual social connection and the uh um the eye you have towards collaborating and uh what you may seek for as uh in people as something that's interesting and curious. You're always kind of looking for that as a as a as an experience or a connection that grounds you if I can use those words, that word grounds you to a to a blessing in the people.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Why don't you feel that with yourself?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Absolutely. I think uh I think that uh having good connections is huge. I think I've been pretty lucky in my life to be able to uh I don't know, out of out of I think it maybe for me it's a kind of curiosity thing uh and also looking at people and seeing in everyone um I don't want to say just the good, there's people I don't see that in, but like the maybe a bit of a benefit of the doubt, and there's a world there. And uh, you know, every I was thinking that walking down the beach this morning, every one of these humans is an entire universe, which is quite fascinating. Another thing for you, coming back a little bit um to the Copenhagen where we're at place, what grounds you kind of line of thinking is uh nature, I think, is a big one for you. And uh moving your body in nature. You know, you you work physically, obviously, as a choreographer, but I know you have to get out. Um I know that's a big part of your connecting uh when you go back to Denmark uh running, and then when I you and I first met, uh before and after, uh, as a runner in Utah and getting into the mountains, and then here uh now in Vancouver, you're also getting out as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

I know Stanley Park so well. Like I have to say, it's an but you do that too, though. Like it's an interesting thing for me. Like, you know, at one point, because we lived like we lived in in Salt Lake City for so many years, but one of the things that kind of kept me there and was such a a sort of a huge spiritual um sort of force in my life there was uh not well, obviously the people, but it's also nature, the fact that I have such easy access to nature there and kind of getting out into wild nature and feeling so feeling as if it was so primal and so sensory, and I was capable of kind of for me like walking through um like uh problems, whether it be choreographic problems or you know, relationship problems, but especially I walked through so much like walk stuff by running and being by myself in nature and kind of navigating that. There is something so for me therapeutic and necessary in that. Like at one point I thought maybe I should like this was early on in my career. I thought maybe I should move back to New York and like kind of there I had like access to a central park, but I was missing that sort of larger sense of being out in wilderness and contrasting that by in a um by a sort of an urban environment was like huge for me, that balance. Um, and I know it's the same for you because you like hit out early in the morning on like your four o'clock, four a.m. walks into the water.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

I uh well absolutely. There's several things in that. I and I go, I think, besides my own uh challenges with uh sleep early in the mornings, um I like getting out there. I go uh down, uh we live like a 10-minute walk from uh beach, Sunset Beach, English Bay, Stanley Park area, for those who know Vancouver. Um but it gets pretty busy. We live in the city. Um and uh by daylight, uh there are runners, lots of runners out there. Um uh uh especially when it starts getting warm in the warmer, uh sunnier parts times of Vancouver. But I get to go, I often go a little bit just before that, um, when it's a little more uh definitely or a lot more quiet. Um and that time of day to me helps give me some of that feeling of, I don't know, connection uh that you might not get in the busyness of a city. You can, I don't know, see what the water is doing, see the sounds it's making, see the sky, stars, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Um you said something yesterday that I thought was kind of beautiful about like remembering like the specific kind of light uh from your childhood, right? This light that we're in now in terms of April in Vancouver, that there's a specific light.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

And smells and sounds, sounds of birds, the smell of the ocean. And I I know relative to this podcast, we're kind of like talking around things, but I think where we're going here a little bit is Charlotte and I, you and I are both kind of impacted by our surroundings and seek inspiration there sometimes as a separation from that sometimes intensity of having a creative life living in a city. But um uh but it brings some I think sensitivity to what it means to me on an ongoing basis to live in a place and connect to a place. Um and uh you know, actually even what you were saying earlier about like your I'm just thinking about your time in Utah, that was probably the greatest connection to nature of all the places you've listed. Because even like here what I've seen of your places in Copenhagen, Lubbock, Seattle, whatever, you're still a bit more urban.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Um I mean I like I'm urban. Yeah. Like I think that um, you know, for us, like I think uh place played such a huge like uh role in terms of the work that we're doing. So I'm very mindful of uh every single place I am in terms of every single time uh in the past, and I still do that now, but especially in the past, when every single time I went to a new city, I would do a run, like early in the morning to get to know that city, whether it be Tokyo or Singapore, wherever it was, I would do an early run to get a sense of the city from that perspective, of just finding a way to navigate through the geography of the city and get a sense of what that city felt like at different times of the day. And I think uh for me, like uh as we're also just kind of thinking about the places that we worked in with regards to now I'm talking buildings and. Stuff like that. It's like again, like looking at those places and spaces in from many different perspectives and understanding kind of how to use a place and sort of and explore it to its full potential, I think has always been kind of a something that's been important in how we kind of address a space, approach a space, and then navigate that space. Wouldn't you agree?

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Yeah. And we both do it slightly differently too. That's what a couple things have that this is making me think of. Like sometimes when you and I are conceiving a project, we both come to it from different angles. Sometimes sometimes, and and they vary, but sometimes I have like I don't know, a drawing or a conceptual idea or an actual designy kind of idea of what to do with the space. And I think because of well, I don't know, my work a little bit, I'm able to kind of visualize that better, perhaps, than you. Sometimes you need to really be in the space to kind of get a feel of the scale. Um, and uh you might see like kind of where I'm coming from, but uh there's a difference there. But I think that both of us, like I I can kind of relate to that in a sense where you've seen me when we lived in a house in Salt Lake City or in several of our projects, I kind of may have a vision, but also need to kind of touch and feel it, you know, need to be there. Uh, because I with a little bit of time uh and coming to it with some ideas, can also let the space or the place kind of feed me, and then something, uh a project or an idea will take form.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Yeah. Um that's something kind of interesting, I think, about you. It's like the fact that you feel as if you kind of have to live in a space to understand where it needs to move to next. Like you have to kind of almost have the space kind of have to be in a dialogue with a space, but you can't be in a dialogue with the space until you've actually been living in it to understand kind of what sort of how what where it's supposed to be moving to next.

unknown 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Well, a bit a bit of both, because I can I can preconceive things, but I I like the touchy-feely part. It's a different to me part of the brain uh to physically do something, I suppose, as opposed to just be uh in the mind or on a computer screen as we as we create. I do, hey, I'm gonna circle into something else, which is kind of um an angle I wanted to get to. Um you and I met in Salt Lake City. Uh maybe two kind of touch points. You use the word touch in your intro. I'm gonna touch on things. Um one of the first things, uh two two two things that I'm gonna raise. One, uh an old friend of yours, two old friends of ours, uh referred to us as the monk and the assassin. U Stephanie um Slade uh comment. Uh this was early in our relationship. Uh there's something about our uh relationship which uh led her to have some tension. There was maybe some tension um and I kind of want to talk about that a little bit. But the other thing I wanted to talk about was uh the name of the first piece that we had worked on together, touching fire with David Crance. Um as we were talking about doing this morning, I was like, that is still such a great title. There's something about like where uh that originated was you, David and I loosely, lightly talking about the idea of madness, the idea, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Um like while it seems to continue to pop up in dialogue for me, you know, madness, assassin, um, Charlotte and Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Um but there's something to that what what what kind of caught my attention at that time was this threshold space of creating where uh there's kind of a safe side of a of a of a whatever balancing beam, razor's edge, um, and then the other side where you're really pushing things, but both sides have a pros and cons, I suppose. You can go a little too nutty or be a little too safe. Um how is our relationship that I don't know, is it calm? Is it over the edge? Is it balancing? Is it threading that line between uh the two? That uh how does that feed into the work that we create?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Well, I thought it was it's interesting to kind of use touching fire as kind of uh starting point because I think we used you used you created an installation piece with two uh two-way mirrors, rather large kind of pieces. Yeah, on stage. And uh it was in a black box, it was a smaller space where we actually staged this, and the piece itself was very uh because it kind of uh it was using madness as kind of a physical kind of uh generator of ideas as well. It the physicality of the piece was pretty extreme, and there was something about that up against the pieces of glass that uh for me are maybe sort of an answer to your question, right? There is sort of like because there is this um idea of kind of pushing against something where there could be a disastrous outcome, or but there could also be an extraordinary kind of virtuosic um interplay between uh sort of the delicacy of the class and the physicality of them of the movement. And I think that we're forever balancing on that. But I don't, I mean otherwise not who can live in a place of complete madness. Nobody does. But I think when we're really um working well together, it is when we're we're able to kind of push a little bit up against something and push away sort of uh safety, but obviously with still the trust and understanding that everybody's gonna be safe. But the the like you also like at one point created. Like we you also created this human-sized hamster wheel at one point that actually like was supposed to be run on during the performance.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

And wobbled off the tracks.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

It's wobbled off the tracks. But there was an understanding that that like these things happen, but is things are still put into place where we make sure that people are still safe. But I think that people watching it um you want people to feel something. You want them to get a sort of an absolute sort of uh punch in the stomach. You want them to kind of you want them to come out feeling a transformed on some level. That for me is always kind of the goal in terms of creating work. Um and I think that you also kind of have that as a goal.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Um to make people feel things. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I um No, but you do. No, I know.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

I'm just even if it's beauty or like something where it's sort of it's transformative. Yeah. How you see a space is different. How you walk into a space is different. You come out feeling as if something has shifted.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

No, it's true. I think if I were to step back and see what I want to do in the world on a pretty high level, um it definitely involves connecting people to something. That sounds so vague, but meaning um yeah, feeling something, uh, an insight. Um hopefully creating a moment that is a a little bit of a grounding, connecting to a place or to uh from a of a a viewer, uh uh an occupant in a building, they they might stop and catch themselves a little bit and feel, oh my goodness, either this place is great or beautiful, or it made me think this, or I'm glad to be on this planet. Um but I the mirrors coming back to that. I I know we're about to be exploring mirrors again. And I it's a big one for me as an architect too, the kind of uh um and the wanting uh to create experiences for people. Um getting to explore some of these spatial and material uh experiential ideas in a stage creative art uh performance type space uh does feed into the architecture world, but same thing, architecture feeds back um into the into the art and performance world. Um but mirrors I find quite so fascinating and at different levels, layers of their uh reflectivity and transparency, sometimes the subtlety of it. And I think that too, coming back to that piece also quite appropriately, as our first work together, uh, where in that case we were reflecting new angles for the audience to see dancers in ways that they might not have expected or been surprised by, but also themselves. And there's something about a relationship being also a mirror. Um uh, you know, a uh uh partner, a couple, a couple uh hood uh going through life. We're often um positively or in a challenging fashion, hopefully also positively reflecting back parts of ourselves that are challenging uh and or uh opportunities for growing and connecting uh not only to each other but to oneself. And I think there's something so uh rich in exploring mirrors and reflection and seeing through things and varying degrees of opacity.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

And seeing as yourself as a yourself, you see yourself reflected back both in positive and negative ways, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:48

I think that uh again, thinking the podcast, I think there's something there's an idea, I think, in a couple like us who challenged each other and are exploring these things, relationships and contrast and reflection. Um that would be fun to explore not only uh any topic or question you and I could come up with, we could take a whole podcast or a lifetime, but putting that back out to other creative couples as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah. Um because I think it's also to do with the fact it's like uh kind of living this life of uh not only living together, but you're also working together. It's like uh it's an interesting kind of balancing act because you can kind of be, as we know, walking nonstop. Like because I think that both of us, it's not as if we stop having ideas. You know what I mean? It's not as if you go to work and you're like finished at five o'clock and then it's like you're not thinking about an idea anymore. Like that's I think the sort of the both the beauty of living a creative life, right? But it's also kind of unfortunately the damning thing, uh, because you never kind of stop thinking.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Um That's why I need to uh wake up at four in the morning, go for an hour-long walk, do 45 minutes of yoga, meditate, and write in my journal. Yeah. I also get to avoid you waking up and saying, Hey, did you did you send that email again at four in the morning or whatever the thing might be? You got the graphic done.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah. But I think going back to what you asked before in terms of like, I think that what we've kind of managed to do still is kind of uh uh I guess we both have kind of like a deep respect for each other in terms of like each other's perspective. I think that's also, and because we both, and we've talked about this before, it's like as a choreographer, you're dealing with space, as an architect, you're dealing with space. And we know we're actually kind of the company's dealing with space. Um so I think in many ways, uh I think we really complement um each other well, just also in terms of how we approach stuff, because I'm much more going back to your original idea of the monk and the assassin, I'm much more instinctual, I'm much more maybe at times intuitive about how I approach a project and how I approach starting a project. Uh it's it's sort of I I work from instinct, um, and that's both good and bad, but for me it's really good because uh it's kind of uh it continuously um uh it makes it makes me uh feel as if the choices I'm making for me are honest choices from my perspective because they're not they're not overthought. Because if I spend too long and start second guessing stuff, it actually starts to weaken uh the original kind of idea for me, like the original physical idea that I came up with. So and I think that you are sort of at times uh much more methodical, like in terms of uh and much more my uh my architect colleagues would probably disagree. Yeah, but but I think that there is something because you have uh like you have um a sort of you need to sit with something for a longer period of time. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Yeah. I well often I think I'm getting better at uh at times being quicker than what you're speaking of. Um but I I do, I can often need time for things to kind of fester, but I also recognize and have learned from you or been pushed more by you to into a little bit more of a spontaneous spontaneous is even the right word, but just kind of action and seeing what comes out of it um as opposed to uh being too precious and trying to be perfect and having that crutch of perfectionism too, even though we both strive for some form of excellence in what we do, but and perfection in many ways. Yeah, well, yeah, I know, but the pros and cons to that.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Um I wanted to say one thing, um, and that was that I think also my line of work has kind of required me to be fast and trust my instincts because I do commissions nonstop. And like you go in, you have a week to set a piece, and there's an expectation at the end that there's a piece, like uh, and you sign a contract, and so therefore you deliver. So there's a deliverable that's expected after a week for you after a week.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Seven years later, maybe we'll start building something. Yeah. Um, but it's true, and this actually ties back to something you said earlier, too. I think in my mind, I wanted to say this earlier about making people feel things. Um, now one can think long and hard and take a long time on a project and still have people to feel things, but there's a kind of a different kind of experience for that for me is great about the work we do when things come together faster than the work I normally do in architecture. Um I've heard you say this too, like there is probably a variation for sure, uh, not just probably, in a piece that one other company or whoever might work on for a year or two versus something that's like, oh shit, we've only got like X thousand dollars, we have to bust this thing out in a few weeks. Um and you are really excellent at that, um, which I greatly admire, but what I think can sometimes transcribe to an audience, whether anyone can pinpoint it or not, is that kind of like this is still delicate. Uh it looks professional, it's tight. Your dancers, the way you train them, uh comes together, but there's something about not having something be so polished that it has that, like there's still an unspoken, unidentifiable, subconscious element of risk there, perhaps in something, and uh, and which I think is is quite lovely.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

I think it's sort of like it it uh humanizes something, right? There's a sort of it feels as if you actually watch reality unfold. You know, you you're you're sort of watching this relationship, if it's a relationship between two people almost unfold in real time because uh of like a times sort of moments of chance inside of those encounters.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Um I guess there's also, in a way, there's always the opportunity of risk in anything in the world. Uh everything's gonna pass away eventually. But I think one of the things I love about dance or certain, I guess, types of performance is that is much more immediate. You know, there can be a piece, obviously it's transferred or created by whatever next dozens of years ago by whoever onto a new company, and it's still a new company, and the new dancer is gonna have a different way of coming to it, even if it's almost exactly as precise in certain forms or whatever. But I can still break a toe on stage. There's that element of something that I think is part of what again brings an audience member into an experience that that is uh what I like to think is gonna you said punch in the gut, but I don't know, non-verbal, um, feely feely gutty.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Remember, the first thing that you do is move before you speak. Like movement is the most instinctual thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

Breathing. I think you breathe.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

I guess you're moving as you're breathing.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, hopefully. Otherwise you're dead. Or paralyzed.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

An original theme of yours, an interest of yours on this podcast was to talk to people um in the recognizing the context of the world we are in right now being fairly tumultuous, hot and bothered.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

And I get to see how it gets you hot and bothered. Um, and I'm for everyone, you know, what the what I'm talking to, putting this into a historical perspective, I we Charlotte and I both believe we're in a fairly tumultuous period of time. Um, that impact is like not that this the humanity is not always a little tumultuous in some places and some people more than others, but this is something uh where we see a pretty big global shift going on, a lot of tension, a lot of geopolitical, historical changes, um, and uh uh hard always to see the positive of that. Um, and so you were kind of wanted to put that into context for some of the people you're interviewing and seeing how they are dealing with it. I um watching that, even you asking that, I think some people are a little hesitant to get into the conversation, perhaps because it's so loaded, it's so potentially emotional, it's uh it gets other people concerned about what your perspective or politics might be. And also sometimes we're just exhausted, you know. It is, it it really, in many ways, to me, maybe I'm pre-answering if you were to ask me, is not a positive place. I think it like I might be responding to it a little bit like, hey, I gotta now I gotta dig deeper into the one-on-one connections around me, to the seeing the beauty, to the making the beauty, uh, even though I know that uh obviously amazing art, um, expression thought can and will come out of this tension and and and past you know historical challenges. Um how are you coming, coming to are you able to be creative in this context? What's your what's your tension with this uh current environment?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Um I find this current uh moment incredibly uh difficult and challenging. I do find like moments of like uh lightness, like I like I, as you know, I've always been really interested in politics and from a historical perspective, but also just kind of um growing up in different kind of political environments, uh like and around the world. Uh I've always been, and my family was also and is really interested in politics. So I cannot ignore what's happening. Uh I uh but I do uh try not to let it uh uh completely consume. My life because I think it's hard to be creatively available and open and vulnerable because it already feels like such a vulnerable moment that we're in. It gives me such excitement when I see what just happened in Hungary a couple of weeks ago, because it kind of just when people get together and kind of make the decision that no, no, no, we're not going to do this anymore. I think there's such hope in that and such kind of um uh it just kind of made me sort of feel as if uh we can get through this uh specific moment in time. Now I'm talking about what's happening in the States, uh like especially, and we both have such obviously we're both um uh dual citizens and are American citizens also, and um and so it's uh disheartening beyond belief what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Somehow fundamentally optimists. Yeah. Um and I think that that is probably part of the pain of it all is that you know I've heard you say like you went to New York because it represented like cultures living together, like the best of creativity and diversity, and um uh and and uh and I've heard you speak of the European Union and how impacted you were when Britain made that ridiculous vote a few years ago, which followed up with the American first vote for Donald Trump. But I think uh what you just said is yes, maybe that is what you're saying, is that there's one way that you are kind of uh vibrating, uh oscillating in uh in this environment, a political global news environment is finding the occasional good story and brilliance, of which there's always so much out there if you can still remember to see it.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Yeah, and continuously kind of being the antidote to this idea of uh isolationism and so forth, right? Because for me and also for you, you've always traveled. Like I've always been interested in many different cultures. It's always been part of my understanding of the world, of not just been in one place and been insulated in my perspective. And so this kind of uh countries that are heading in that direction, I just find uh kind of deeply offensive and like incredibly uninteresting as a trajectory. Because in reality, I think going back to the States, what we we didn't have to. We didn't flee to America. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 46:39

It's like we chose We might have fled from America.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

But we chose to go there because it represented an idea. Like it represented an idea of multiculturalism, uh, like this kind of uh huge kind of sort of democracy, uh, like that kind of honored many different cultures. And for me, that was what was exciting, like to head in this direction now is insanity. And that's not what I'm that's not some that's not a context that I that inspires me. So then it's now about finding context that inspires you. And it's still the people, it's still like people coming together, and it's also people coming together in the States. I mean, the most of my work is still in America, and I have so much love for uh so many communities there, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

One of the things that I follow up on that with is um you know I think that in different ways, even I both went to America for something. Innovation. I was that's kind of where I wanted to go too, like for all of the the what we see what we what what what uh the focus of so much news is these days, it is not that uh of which America has been exceptional at, which is invention and creativity. And I think I uh when I fumbled my way into America, it wasn't with that purpose, like, hey, I'm going down to whatever, expose myself and learn how to uh I don't know, create and be and have that openness. But it's something that I uh am grateful for and admire about America and miss while not being there is a certain amount of like um just fucking do it uh and and and and experiment and fail. And some of what I kind of pick up from that energy in America is kind of like it's a it's it is a two-sided coin. It's kind of like there's this like, hey, we're America, we can do anything. Uh and uh of course not every American has that thought or has that capacity or has been born into a context that allows that or has historically been able to. But there is kind of that freedom in theory that Americans think they're fighting for. But um but it it goes both ways. Like that that kind of assumption of hey, we're the best in the world has allowed a lot of Americans to stop being the best in the world because that is just assumed and and yet, and then it's let down to a whole bunch of chains of politics and then and people taking advantage of others. But that freedom of thinking you're the best in the world has also allowed other people to just go like, hey, I can do anything. I can like make stuff. I mean, like you and I spent time in Texas and some of the most amazing art that's uh contemporary, current, present, and in the last several whatever decades has come out of that kind of energy. And being outside of that, uh, you know, that's one of the hardest things, but not going down to for me, America as much, is just kind of this this energy, this kind of like let's let's make cool shit. Let's make let's make something happen for better or for worse. Um, I think living outside, and perhaps it's it might have been why you and I migrated away from our lovely countries of Denmark and Canada, is that there was an openness that might have drawn us like like moths to a flame.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

It was a dynamic environment, do you know what I mean, that I needed at that point and that kind of served me in all ways. It like that kind of idea of adventure, uh curiosity, openness, um, and this ability to kind of risk and as you say, fail and then climb up again and try again. And you know, that that's a uh rarity, like to find uh sort of uh country and a society that allows for that, you know. So it's messy.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

It's messy.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

One of its beauties is its messiness. Unfortunately, it's like gone a little bit in the direction in the negative messy at the moment. Yeah, but I also think that like it has done before many, many times.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Of course, correct. Uh absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

Should the planet survive? Oh, the planet will survive without us. With or without us.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

It's gonna extract us at some point. Okay. Um, so we should actually end this so we don't like uh ramble on, but we should do this again, Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

So let's do it every day.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Um, so I'm gonna actually we're gonna end with just these 10 random questions, and then we can kind of like take turns in in terms of okay, I'm gonna ask you first, um, what's your favorite uh TV show at the moment?

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Um I can I can't. Well, okay, what are we watching right now? We have I think we have three series going on, and uh uh so I can only pick from those three.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Um Well, you can pick like pick other shows.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

No, currently right now. I can't go back. My memory doesn't go back that far. We're watching hacks, beef, and something else, though we've only watched half of an episode of uh a British series. Um I'm gonna uh I'm gonna say beef right now, even though we may not think any of the characters are people we would admire or want to be around. I admire the humor.

SPEAKER_05 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

And it's a bit uh dark and it is funny and uh it's artful. Yeah. It is artful.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

And it's insane. And it feels appropriate for this moment. Okay, you go.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Okay. Um Charlotte has a list of 10 questions we're bouncing back and forth here. And do I have to stick to them or can I have my own?

SPEAKER_02 52:46

No, you can kind of stick to them.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

I can kind of stick to them. Okay. Um Canada and Denmark are attacked uh militarily by who know who, I don't know. Which one would you fight for?

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Denmark in a heartbeat. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Can't Canada attacks Denmark. You go to Denmark? Uh definitely.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

It's been around like and no, not like not the indigenous culture here, it's obviously longer, but I'm talking in terms of like you just want to defend the oldest country? Yeah, we've got a really old country.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

It's your connection to the place.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

We've got some really cool buildings.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yeah, you're defending the old buildings. Well, I Charlotte doesn't necessarily think so, but I think there are a number of parallels between Canada and Scandinavia.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Oh no, there are.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

We're younger. What? Younger here.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

But uh Absolutely, the social kind of social open cultures like North. Yeah, they're absolutely and it's interesting. Actually, I do think, and this maybe isn't a funny thing to think about. I do think in many ways that we're quite similar personality-wise, because it's like uh I think Canadians are like, oh my god, uh like I'm not gonna like put myself forward necessarily. Like, do you know what I mean? I I don't believe that I'm the best. In Denmark, you grow up with this idea that you're not the best. Like it's like it's actually, and it's similar here.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

We we definitely share that.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

Ours is uh a uh uh uh inferiority complex being next to America.

SPEAKER_02 54:21

And I think that you just actually just kind of like I think in general there's a humility here that I kind of appreciate. And it's the same in in in Denmark. We're such a tiny country. We're once very, very large, but Do you say do you say sorry a lot?

SPEAKER_00 54:35

No.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

No, not with me. You don't.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

And then uh do you uh we say sorry if like obviously you've done something wrong, but you don't it's not like a a non-stop, like you don't introduce yourself with an apology.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

That's what we do here in Canada. Do you guys have a sense of humor? Yeah, like you know Danes have a sense of humor.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Danes, I think, have a pretty good sense of humor. Like I you can see that in movies that you see, like, right?

SPEAKER_03 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Don't you feel as if you can understand or something?

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Yeah, a little bit dark, maybe. Oh, it's total at times. Um your turn.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Um what's your favorite word?

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Uh I I uh I struggled with this question in the uh test version.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Actually, what what's your favorite swear word?

SPEAKER_03 55:26

That's where I was hoping you were going. Um my favorite swear word would have to be the F-word. Um it's so flexible and uh it's a good release and it has so many meanings. Um, but I just want as a little footnote on that, I also love all swear words. I think they're just like they're part of words, they're part of language. And I think again, uh culturally I find them fascinating.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

Um, I you know, you were saying this the other day that uh you can't you don't swear in Danish because they're swear words, they that they're real to you.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Well, I was like, when I grew up, my mom would like wash only my brother and I, not my sister, but only my brother is out as mouths with uh like soap if we said any kind of swear word.

SPEAKER_05 56:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

So it's like I'm allergic to saying any swear words in Danish, but I say a lot of them in English.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Yeah. Well, and I think that if I she don't say a lot of them in but some some of the really bad ones in Danish, like are really really bad. Whereas I think the English ones are just like that, maybe it's because they're used so much, or maybe they've disconnected from their original like darkness. Um but like in in in Quebec, uh they a lot of their swear words are religion uh cath, cath, cathol, cath catholicism, uh referential. Um tabanak and second, things like that, things that I probably don't pronounce properly, but they like tie back to that, and they're real, real swear words. Yeah, you know, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:07

And what do they mean?

SPEAKER_03 57:09

They're just bad things.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

It's just bad. And then there's others that I I can't uh remember all of them, but um anyways, I'll just say it. What's your favorite swear word?

SPEAKER_02 57:22

I like the Fwad too, but I use the Swad more. Like I just it's a weird one.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

I kind of like it. I like how we're avoiding saying them, but we've sworn otherware, other wearers in this podcast. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Okay, so if you could only actually no, so you're uh you're next. No, actually I'm gonna ask you, if you could only bring one book with you to Deserted Island, where you had to stay for the rest of your life, which book would you choose?

SPEAKER_03 57:44

I still like the answer uh I came up with the other day on this one, and I still can't remember the name of the book. I think it is Unfolding Through Art. And I haven't really read it. It was uh uh a series of exercises um put together, probably captured by a student of a um uh an awakened being named Namjal Rinpoche, uh, who I did a meditation retreat with and experience his uh uh Dharma Center in Ontario about 25 or so years ago. Um, anyways, it's not the longest book, not the most words of all the books. We have a lot of books, it's very hard to choose, but I think it would just have a series of exercises that uh I could continue to build upon and grow from. And I don't really want to be on an island uh by myself, but uh I could probably find a stick and do something with it. Draw on the sand. Help and the dirt sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

You know, I kind of like I'm gonna ask myself this question.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Tell me about your book. You know, I think that I there are two books. Okay, I would take two. Uh I would take um the book that uh came out of those conversations that Nick Cave had with um the Irish writer. Uh like and I forgot what it was called.

SPEAKER_03 59:20

Uh, but I just I thought that there were Wasn't it like Hope, Faith, and Carnage was the book, I think.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

It's just, it's such a uh I think it's such a a beautiful um I mean such beautiful kind of insight into Nick Cave as an artist, but I just also I felt as if it had such kind of universal kind of uh appeal to any kind of artist uh with regards to um yeah, the the uh author's name is Sean O'Hagan, uh O'Hagan.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

Um faith, hope, and carnage. Yeah, I hope, faith, and carnage.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

But it's just uh feel such a great invitation to uh like um looking at your life uh through Nikave's lens, where I always want to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Are you on this island for forever? Or is this like a year of being abandoned on an island?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Well, like I could sort of probably read that book several times, but then I was gonna say another one I was gonna bring, and this brings me back to my a childhood, like uh the sort of the ultimate collection of Hans Christian Adams and fairy tales, because I feel as if they s speak to not only uh use a child, but also uh sort of interesting like revelations about use an adult and death, and it sort of covers the whole span. And there's like I like, you know, I like kind of like um swans.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Dark swans.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Like, no, but there was something uh metal sweaters. It's also just such that's so beautifully written, and there is something about kind of if you're alone on an island to be transported into all of these different kinds.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

It's a nice long book. Yeah. I think we have three three versions. I have an old one, you have a lost one that exists somewhere in our universe, and then a new one.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

I had one that my uh grandfather gave to me as a present uh before he died. He was quite old, and he was quite old uh when he became a grandfather. But it was it was uh uh an edition that was uh like uh like that was published the year that he was born, and he was given it uh to him by uh his um parents. And uh it was from 1897.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

That's good. The only books that I have that are that age are an old an old Bible and an old book of Quebec stories that I haven't read either of them. But they were given by a grandparent to a or a great grandparent to something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

What would be your last meal? Um on that note of like dying.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

Uh it better be a good one. I hate having bad meals.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Um would you be watching a dance performance?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

While I'm eating my last meal and dying at the same time. There are certain dance performances I really would not want to watch as I die. And as for a last meal, I'm assuming I have a few hours between meal and death. Right? I would want a meal that uh doesn't make me feel heavy, but sticks with me. Probably involves olive oil and garlic. I could see a salmon, a uh a Mediterranean themed salad. Uh yeah, something fresh like that. Maybe I shouldn't eat a fish on the way out. That sounds like kind of I should just stick to vegetables, even though they might be sentient too.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

You know, there's like a salad that we had at like Harry's uh fine goods in Seattle. That would be my last meal. I've thought about that salad a lot. It's called like the little gem salad. Yeah. Like that, not the most recent one that they put back on their thing, but like their menu. Yeah, that one I wouldn't want. But the one that I have had previously, that is like the best salad I think I've ever had in my life. And I think I'd go out in a salad because I think that's the thing I've eaten the most in my life, is like a salad.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:27

And a good one is so good. It's so good. It's fresh.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Especially when it's got like fresh peas in it, like stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

Especially when it has peas. But especially, especially when it's like really fresh. And I prefer fewer ingredients than a really heavy.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

Yeah, but like that like little gem, it's like that, it's like those specific, like that kind of lettuce, but then with green peas, it is so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Really nice light vinegar.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

And maybe a pickled onion, like a red onion. Old lettuce. Okay, so what makes you hopeful?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

Uh you! Oh you living. Me alive. You alive, laughter, friends, connections.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

Is there anything that you're looking forward to? Like that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

Yeah, but like that we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

Uh of course. I am loving, uh, even though I wish I could spend more time on it, I'm loving seeing our book come together, forming, falling. Um shows coming up. I'm loving forming and falling every day with you. I um I yeah, we've we've got a f we've we've been in a blast of uh grant writing, which means we're generating sometimes we're taking an idea and applying for it many times, uh, like the neurosceros, miroceros kind of idea, building on a project, but we've also generated a few others, different kinds of spaces we can use. We're developing a longer-term uh collaboration with uh Jesper, Eland, and Denmark for a old mid-century uh beautiful airport there, and coming back to ideas of flight, which you know I dwelled on in in uh my thesis project as an architecture uh student. Um uh and yeah, I'm hopeful for a number of things you have brewing, some some new classes, uh both uh kind of physical work that you're uh about to launch and promote. Um and residencies. Reddencies come in. There's there's a lot we have a we have a lot brewing. Sometimes that we look around like, hey, there's nothing happening, but other times we got, oh my god, I can't keep up with when is like when are you looking around saying there's nothing happening?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

Is there anything that you want to ask me at the end?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

Uh probably. Um one last question. Only one? Yeah. No, I'm gonna ask you two, and you can be very quick with them. Uh First, what makes you hopeful?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

I sort of uh are really good friends, collaborators. Uh like um I think that uh a lot of people make me hopeful, like um a lot of really good people out there in the world make me hopeful. Um I am excited about so many of the things that we have coming up. I'm excited about sort of seeing you kind of transform uh into like uh your best version of yourself, which is kind of uh going back to the fact of being together for this many years, it's like like I can just sort of slowly see you becoming more of you, which is also kind of exciting uh for me to watch. Um yeah, like many things are making me hopeful. Lots of really great projects, as you mentioned, coming up and work and family and yeah, like people in our lives, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

It's spring.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

Summer's coming.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

You've still got some travels coming up. I don't know how much travel I'm doing because of the world and costs, but there's still uh there's a lot of beautiful things around here to explore. I still, even though we've been here in Vancouver-ish for five, six years, more for me, less less for you, but I still feel like I'm I'm I'm growing into and learning about the city and people. And I'm actually excited for the city, even though some people like refer to it as no fun city, and I can kind of feel that uh instinct sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Who's mention who's saying that?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

It's been known as no fun city for like a long time. Um a little bit. We talked earlier about being a little too perhaps constrained and not open and pushing boundaries as much. But at the same time, it's also kind of ridiculous because Vancouver is a cutting-edge city and is beautiful and huge potential here, and blah blah blah, all those kinds of things. So I think I think Vancouver is young and its cultures are some, but the new cultures here are still learning at the place, and also simultaneously relearning, learning for the first time what the place has been long before we all read. And I think there's actually some really huge potential on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Do you want to end on that? Or was there one last question you want to ask me?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:31

You mentioned that you teach and work in English. Do you think your choreography would be different if you're like speaking in Danish while you talk?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

More guttural, more violent.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

No, no. Like, no, because like more comfortable, more easy? No, like I like the physicality comes from a physical place. It doesn't come from my language. Like it is It is my language.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

The physicality is your language.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

Yeah. That's like that's so embedded deep, deep, deep inside, way before I even learn to speak. The movement has to be able to tell the story.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:22

Let's stop there. How about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

Okay, sounds good. Thanks, Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

Thank you, Charlotte.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

Bye.