Alcoholic Dad to Present Father (Become the Dad you NEVER Had)

What do you do when your dad is drunk, absent, and ruins your childhood—then you grow up and realize you’re becoming just like him?

In this raw conversation, Joshua Brown sits down with Gary Wilber to talk about growing up with an alcoholic father, the rage and embarrassment he carried for years, and the spiritual wake-up call that turned him from workaholic provider into a present, intentional dad. If you’re wrestling with father wounds, forgiveness, or feeling exhausted as a dad, this one is for you.

In this episode you’ll learn:

• How growing up with an alcoholic dad shaped Gary’s childhood and identity
• The rock-bottom moment when his father embarrassed him in front of his friends
• Why his mom stayed in a hard marriage—and what Gary learned from her loyalty
• How Gary realized he was repeating his dad’s pattern through workaholism
• The men’s retreat that “slapped him awake” and changed his fatherhood forever
• What forgiveness really is (and why it’s more for you than for your dad)
• Practical advice for worn-out dads who have nothing left in the tank after work
• Simple spiritual habits to lead your family and keep your eyes on Jesus

👊 Ready to become the dad you never had?

 🔗 Learn more about Dudes Without Dads: https://www.dudeswithoutdadspodcast.com/

If this helped you, share it with a man who needs to hear he’s not alone.

#DudesWithoutDads #ChristianMen #Fatherhood

Chapters / Timestamps

00:00 – Cold open: “My dad was an alcoholic…”
 00:55 – Welcome to Dudes Without Dads + intro to Gary
 01:30 – Youngest of six: growing up with a weekend drunk dad
 02:20 – “Dad, will you play catch?” and the pain of broken promises
 03:10 – An always-driving mom and a house full of yelling
 03:55 – Escaping home through sports, student council, and busyness
 04:35 – Mom’s loyalty, marriage vows, and why she never left
 06:00 – Should you stay or leave a hard marriage? Gary’s perspective
 07:10 – From alcoholic dad to workaholic son: repeating the pattern
 08:10 – The spiritual “slap” that woke Gary up as a father
 09:30 – Want to share your story on Dudes Without Dads? (host CTA)
 10:35 – Teen years: no dad to ask about manhood, porn, and wrong turns
 11:40 – Meeting his wife’s steady farmer dad and learning real manhood
 12:50 – A teacher speaks leadership into him: “You’ll be president one day”
 14:00 – Leadership, mentors, and deciding who you want to become
 14:45 – Rock-bottom embarrassment: dad yelling at his friends in high school
 16:00 – “I refused to forgive him… until my wife called me out”
 17:10 – Telling his dad “I forgive you” before he died
 18:05 – The heart healing that came with forgiveness
 19:00 – Realizing his kids would remember him like he remembered his dad
 20:30 – Mid-episode giving + support invitation from Joshua
 21:40 – Selling the business and becoming a more present dad
 22:30 – Coaching, choir concerts, football games, and just being there
 23:15 – What is Cursillo? Gary explains the retreat that changed him
 24:20 – Why men need time, space, and silence with God
 25:20 – Exhausted dads of toddlers: “Your job starts when you get home”
 26:10 – It’s not 50/50—it’s 100/100 in marriage
 27:20 – Sex, serving your wife, and showing up at home
 28:15 – Men as spiritual leaders and the cost of absent fathers
 29:15 – Simple habits: Bible, prayer, and small daily faith steps
 31:10 – Depending on God when you have nothing left

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My dad was an alcoholic. You know, it's a lot of screaming and yelling, and mom would get in fights because you know she'd tell him to quit. And of course, he couldn't quit. He'd come out to play death. And about five minutes in, or if it was even five minutes, I'll be back. And then he would never come back. But during that weekend, I just felt like the Lord spoke to me and said you need to make changes. You know, and you're doing the same thing, but in a different addiction, the same thing with power.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

My life was just by rolling downhill depression, alcoholism, incarceration, death about a spare one guy who showed up. It's just easy. If you can give a man clarity and community, he can start to live out his purpose. You can break generational curses of alcoholism.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Welcome to Dudes Without Dads, the show that trains men how to become the dads they never had.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I'm Gary Wovers from Jefferson City, Missouri, and um just live in the beautiful Midwest.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Awesome. Well, let's go back to the beginning of your story. And would you mind sharing a little bit about what your childhood was like?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Well, my childhood, um, I was the youngest of six children, and I was I'm the youngest, so I'm the baby of the family, as they say. Um, but the challenge that I had during my time was my dad was an alcoholic. And um in my childhood, the memory that I have is he was at his worst when I was growing up, um, was really into it, um, was able to work every day, um, but would come home a lot of times in the hidden side of it, but would become that drunk on the weekends. Um, you know, that was kind of a constant theme that happened all the time. If we went anywhere, my mom always drove because of course he always had to have a beer or have something with him, and there was some whiskey involved and stuff. Never got where he got mean to us. But the thing is, the memories that come back to me is really this memory of I would want to go out and play ball. Dad, would you play pitch and catch with me? He'd come out and play catch, and about five minutes in, or if it was even five minutes, um, I'll be back. And then he would never come back because then he would go get his beer and you know, would never come back. And I always got in trouble as a kid because I was throwing the ball up on the roof and catching it, and you know, was kind of becoming that great St. Louis ball player, you know, like Keith Hernandez or Ozzie Smith and stuff on that side of it. And my mom came out and say, quit throwing that ball on the roof because it's going to run the roof and stuff. But I didn't have anyone to play with because my brothers and sisters were older and stuff. So it really set to me in a memory that you know, I felt like a lot of times I had an absentee father, even though he was there, he wasn't there. And I'm sure people know with alcoholism, it's a disease like anything else. But when he was in his worst, and then you know, a lot of screaming and yelling, and mom would get in fights because you know, she'd tell him to quit. And of course, he couldn't quit. Um, so we had those challenges that came in. And just as a young child, I'll be honest, I really figured out as I got up in ages and stuff that how can I escape this? So I got very active and involved. And like when I got in high school, I was involved not only in sports but student council and other activities because I wanted to be away from the house as much as I possibly can. And I told myself as soon as I possibly can, I'm getting out of this house. And I moved out at 18 and never came back.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Wow, you mentioned your mom earlier in sharing your your story. What was your relationship with your mom like?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Mom was that caring, compassionate. She was very loving and stuff on that side of it. So, I mean, but she believes she took a vow, and I understand that now that I'm married and seeing some of that. I mean, we told her many times, why don't you leave him? You know, he's no good for us, you know. Yeah, he was bringing some income in, was able to function on his job, believe it or not, driving a gas truck, propane truck, um, and stuff. But he was able to function on that side of it, as far as we know. I don't know that for a fact, but I don't think he drank um during that time. But boy, once he'd get home, then he'd start. But my mom was that caring, compassionate one. She's where I got my competitive spirit, I'll be honest. You know, it didn't matter if she was playing cards or Yahtzee or what. She wanted to win, you know, and even seen that when she came over when our kids were young on that part of it. But she really kind of kept the family together and stuff. And her thing was, you know, that she made this vow that to him, and she was going to continue that vow, and she did throughout our whole life. She never did divorce him or anything else. And my dad in his later years got cancer and ended up passing away when he was 77, but she stuck with him through it all. And you know, as I look back, um, I really admire that about my mom because you know how many people have that kind of loyalty today? It's it's pretty rare.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I know this is going to be a side conversation and not directly connected to our conversation. But when you look back, would you say in some ways that's prescriptive as it relates to your mom making the choice for her to stay, even though it was toxic? Because in our culture today, that's not the norm. I just want you to share looking back over your life, having the narrative, seeing, you know, your dad pass away in his 70s. What advice? And this is quite this is you know, aside the conversation, what would be your advice if there was anybody that found themselves should I stay in it for the kids and for this vow? Or should I jump ship? Would you mind sharing your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yeah, I think that's a great question because I think the thing is, is we think, oh, it's easier just be out of it. And that's what we thought at that young age, and even through high school, and you know, said that many times with my mom, and even after high school, you know, I was gone, but I said, Why do you put up with this and stuff? But I think the thing is, is I think it is prescriptive because she had that vow that she took and she carried that vow. Now I think it's different if you're getting abused, you know, if she was getting beat by my father and stuff on that side, I wouldn't say the same thing. And anybody in an abusive situation, you've got to get out of it. And I don't know if it means divorce, but you've got to get out of that situation because it can put you in harm. But if you're not in harm, he wasn't in that type of thing. It was more to himself. Of course, we were affected by it, but it was more to himself. That I think it really changes the dynamic. And I think that's part of our challenges in our society. When things get tough, we're not willing to do the tough things we need to. Um, and you know, one thing about alcoholism and drugs are the same way, and addiction is that way, is when you get an addiction, you can't change someone else. You know, we mentioned that multiple times, you know, Dad, you got to get help and everything else. They ultimately have to help themselves and want that help to be able to happen. Late in life, he actually did quit drinking, but basically kind of an ultimatum side and became a dry drunk. So I think the thing we have to look at is what's the situation? If you're not in that harm's way, are you willing to make that commitment? I will tell you, that's probably one of the things that stuck with me. I've been married now 31 years to a great lady. My wife's name is Dana, and we've had three children and stuff. And the thing that's really told me is, you know, you've got to stick it out through thick and thin, you know. And I'll be honest, she probably stuck it out more for me because I wasn't an alcoholic, but I'll be honest, early in my career, I was a workaholic because it was all about I'm gonna make myself successful. Boy, how fortunate she is. I'm doing so well in the business, but I did whatever I needed to in the business. When our kids were young, I'll be honest, I wasn't around as much. But I thought because I'm providing enough to bring home the money that she's able to work from home, boy, she should be so appreciative that I'm doing that. And I had it wrong because what? I wasn't the I wasn't being a father. I was doing basically the same my thing my dad did to me. The number one thing I told myself I would not do is the one thing I said I want to do, is I wanted to be a great father and I wanted to be there for my children. And again, this was when there was four, three, and one, those ages. So luckily I saw went through a spiritual experience, be quite honest. And as I tell people, I said, God didn't tap me, he slapped me and said, you know, if you don't wake up, you're gonna lose what you have, and all the money isn't gonna take care of you. Instead, you're gonna lose what's most important. And you know, my kids now are 26, 24, and 22, and I'm further sure they're the first ones that wouldn't tell you I'm a great father, perfect father, but I was around and I was in their life, and I was part of their life. Um, and that really became a journey to me. So I think if you look back, that's where some of mine came from of what I needed to be. But of course, we all hide from different things as parents, as fathers, for sure. Sometimes we take those pains to saying that's not what we're gonna be, but that's what we end up becoming. And luckily I saw that, and I feel like God gave me that tap andor that slap, as I said, and kind of woke me up and said, Hey, you're down the wrong same path. It may not be alcoholism, but instead you've got an addiction to be successful, to be, you know, have a great business and do everything externally, but not take care of the internal of your own personal family.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

That is so powerful, and we're gonna get into that here in a second. But before we do, we real quick. Do you have a story of growing up without a dad, or you had a destructive or distracted father? If you think it would be of value to share your story on the Dudes Without Dads podcast, I want you to pause, go to the link inside the bio, and apply to speak on the Dudes Without Dads podcast. And then if you know somebody that would be an incredible guest, please share this show with them because we can do more if we do it together. Now back to the show. When you go back to your teenage years and you start processing things like being a man, being responsible, your relationships without a dad. What all entered into your life? How did you process things like manhood?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, that was a difficult one because I couldn't ever ask those tough questions and stuff on that side. I mean, I took some many wrong turns in that path, you know, doing wrong things. Um, you know, back then, you know, it wasn't the internet that was the problem, it was magazines, you know, with addiction, porn, and stuff on that side. I won't say I was ever addicted to it, but of course I explored in those areas and stuff on that side of it. So I was trying to figure out what that was. I was very fortunate because the lady that I married, her family are farmers, and her dad's just a pretty rock solid um gentleman. And as I started dating her, that's probably when I learned the most. Um, because he was still a provider, they worked hard on the farm, you know, because when they when I first dated them, you know, they were struggled in the 80s like most farmers did. And um, you know, I met her in the later 80s and stuff, and there were some tough times, high interest rates and everything else. But the one thing he never gave up on is his faith and with his family. It was always on Sundays, it was about family time of getting together, being together, going to church together, and then spending time together as that family. And they were not the type that they showed a lot of emotion, you know, like hugs and kisses and stuff on that side, but you could just feel when you were with them the solidness that was there on that part of it. And then, of course, I met a few other people that I feel kind of mentored me along that way, but it was definitely a feeling out part. And then in high school, it really became I started getting active in leadership and I was involved in student council and some of those things. And what really I had a teacher, um, she was my English teacher, which I'm not a great English major by any means, but she made an impact on me that I still speak about some today. That when I was a freshman, I got involved in student council. And the end of that year, of course, you get the yearbook and you get them in the next fall. So, really, when you're going into sophomore, and she wrote in my book, she goes, You're gonna make a great leader as you grow up and stuff. And I can see you being your student council president, your senior year. Well, my senior year, I was student council president. Now, sometimes I tell people, nobody ran against me. Some people say, Well, you got it just because nobody ran against you. I felt like I was such a fierce competitor, that's why they didn't run against me. But she spoke that into me. And I really feel today some of my leadership qualities I got was number one, being involved in student council, being involved in organization. But I really feel like she spoke that into me. And, you know, luckily we're still friends today. She's actually edited three of all four of my books on that I wrote because I'm not a great English major and we have a great relationship. And I tell her the impact that she made for me, and she always tells me, Well, you've given me a lot more credit than I deserve. But it's those people in your life that makes that difference for you. And I had a college professor that did something similar that that really helped me kind of see, okay, I need to decide who do I want to be and then grow that leadership within you. And when I talk about leadership, I'm not talking just business leadership, it's talking about being that person that you want to be.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So powerful. And um, when you look at your story and where you came from, can you identify a rock bottom um part of your life where it was like, man, I don't when I look back, it's the hardest moment or the lowest point of my life.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, I would say somewhere in, I don't know the exact year, but in my high school years, you know, I came home, had some friends come along, and my dad was in just not one of them moods and was not happy about it that I brought friends home and everything else. And I just remember there being some yelling and screaming because most of my friends never knew about it. But this group, when we came home, they knew something was wrong on that side of it. And I'll be honest, I was just embarrassed, you know. I was embarrassed, you know, for him, but I was embarrassed personally because I felt like he invaded a territory. And, you know, think about your high school uh years, those are years that you know, you think you're macho, you're something tough, and everything else. And that time, you know, we left pretty quick during that standpoint. But when I came home, I was just so mad, so furious and stuff on that side, you know, just why do you got to embarrass me, you know, and everything else, and just really kind of laid it out to my dad. And I'll be honest, I carried with me a lot of years up to before he died. I carried with that I couldn't forgive him, you know. I was not gonna forgive him because he ruined my childhood, you know. And I had a very wise woman, my wife, one day we're coming home from the veterans hospital, and he's not doing really well and stuff. And she told me one day, she said, you know, you're never gonna forgive yourself if you don't ever forgive him first. I was like, What? Me forgive him? He's the one that was the alcoholic, he's the one that wrote my childhood and stuff on that side. She goes, Yeah, you're gonna carry that the rest of your life unless you decide you're gonna forgive him and let it go. And of course, you know, at the time I didn't realize it, but I gave that some thought, kind of left it with God, and thank God put on my heart, Gary, forgive him. And I went up there and I don't know if it was the next time, but before he passed away, and I told him, Dad, I said, I forgive you. You know, I wasn't the father that I wanted in the childhood that I wanted and stuff, but I understand you had an addiction and you couldn't handle it um and stuff, and you did it the way that you thought you needed to and stuff. But you know, from my heart to yours, I love you. Um, you mean a lot to me. You always be my father, and I thank you for what you did do for me because I always did have three meals on the table and had food and had clothing. Didn't wasn't a perfect, you know. We were a very middle income, if that um level family and stuff, but you provided for that side of it, and I forgave him. And I'll be honest, that's one of the things that today I look back and you know, is there times I get that little bit of envy still and stuff? Sure, that's my human side, but I know that I sent him away and you know he's he's in a good place and he knows that I do love him and stuff on that side of it. And I I am appreciative for the things he did provide to me.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

When you got those words out of your mouth, did you experience any type of healing or emotion in that moment that I forgive you?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

The way I would explain it is that I felt like there was a healing in my heart. I mean, I've heard it explained that way, but that's the best way I can feel. I just feel like there was I felt better, you know. I walked away that day. The other days we've come up, we came up for obligation before. But that day I think I wanted to be there. So I think the difference was when I walked away that day, I felt like, wow, I feel better about this now. And I think, you know, I I can't say it was a sense or anything, but it just when I walked away, I just had this feel, and I've heard other people say that sometimes you got that hole in your heart, and I just felt so much better about it than I did before.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

You mentioned in your story that the result of your dad having an addiction to alcohol and this undertow of you ruined my childhood, and then you had your own kids, and then the addiction that you would would work would would work towards is providing for your for your family or working hard. When was the moment that you realized that hey, I think I'm doing the same thing that my dad was? What when did you realize that?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

It was really that spiritual retreat, um, just a recognizing uh allowing God in, um, given space, given time, and saying, you know, um, yeah, on that part of it. And I can't tell you exactly, but it was a full spiritual weekend, so it was gone from Thursday night through Sunday. But during that weekend, I just felt like the Lord spoke to me and said, You need to make changes, you know, and you're doing the same thing, but in a different addiction, the same thing your father did. Is that what you want your children to remember you? Being a great boss, being a great, you know, you provide it for them. You know, you hear that all the time. Business owners, you know, we work our tails off to make our business go, but we forget that success, everybody's got a different definition. I hope when I pass away, it's the significance that I've left for people that makes the difference, you know, and especially your family. They're gonna know you best, so they're gonna be the one to tell you. Um, you know, my wife, even till still today, because she stayed home with them children, she has a lot closer relationship with them. I've got a good relationship, and I feel like I can talk to my kids about things and um they'll come to me and stuff. But there's no doubt with her being home with them more and stuff on that side of it, I mean, she's got that tighter connection there. And I understand that. Um, I don't have any ill feelings for her or anything else for that side of it, but I have to work at it because you know, if you don't, you're gonna lose that, and depending on what age those children were. Luckily, when that happened, they Hey, I'm gonna interrupt the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Hope it is adding value to you. And let me introduce myself. I'm Joshua Brown, founder of Dudes Without Dads. I'm a dude who grew up without a father, and he actually offered to pay for my abortion not be in my life. And so this podcast is birthed out of my desire to be the dad I never had, and then encourage other men to become the dads I never had. And just to be straight and to be blunt, I need givers. I need individuals who believe in this ministry that believe that helping men become the dads they never had is a worthwhile pursuit. And I've got a giving just hit QR code on the screen, or you can go inside the show notes and just become a monthly supporter of the dudes without dad for your gift of anything over$20 a month. I'm gonna send you our season one Dudes Without Dad shirt. Just let us know what size you wear and I'll mail it uh to you. But that's all I've got, and I again appreciate you taking time to listen to this podcast. Now back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

You were like seven, five, and three. So, you know, they don't even remember that too much because after that I started being home when they left for school, you know, and I was around a lot more. And then when I sold my business, my primary business in 2012, I was even home more. Um on that side of it. So I got the if they were in sports and activities, I helped coach, I did those type of things and was able to be there. Now I made plenty of mistakes as a father, like we all do, um, on that side of it. But, you know, they can't say that I wasn't there for them. It didn't matter if it was a choir activity or if it was a football game or if it what it was. We supported our children and the activities that they did.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. So seven, five, and three is when you went on a spiritual retreat. What was the name of the spiritual retreat? And for guys that have never been on one, would you recommend it? And what does it look like?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah, I'm Catholic, so it's very much a Catholic um um experience. It's called Curseal. So if you're in the Catholic side of the faith and stuff, they have cursiles, but other faiths have other spiritual retreats and stuff on that side of it. But for men, I mean, I recruit men now to it. I mean, right now, to tell you the truth, I'm praying for 21 men that I've got on the list because I'm on team for one coming up in June. And I'm praying for them men to say yes to come this Christile because I know what a difference it makes. And doesn't matter what age your life, your kids are in, it will make that impact and make that difference and stuff. And there's other spiritual retreats, as you know, in other faith. The biggest thing is just giving God time and space. And what do we not have enough of anymore? Time and space, um, and stuff, and just telling yourself, give yourself this weekend. I understand it. If if you're married, if you've got small children, it's gonna be tough on your spouse, but tell them, hey, give me this weekend, and then you figure out what you want to do on one of those weekends, and I'll take care of the kids and give you a chance to go. Because not long after I went, my wife went. And then, to be quite honest, that was a real difference because then it helped us both get on the same page. And she was already very spiritual and very faithful. So, you know, I was the one I was doing things to check the box. I still went to mass every Sunday, but was I there? I was thinking about what's going on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday because I had a little time and space. So, guess what popped up in my head? Oh, you need to make sure you do this, this, and this. And luckily, I had a gentleman that, you know, he didn't ask once, didn't ask twice, he asked three different times to get me to go. Um, and still today I've got a great friendship with him, Bob. And you know, he's one of those people that feel like God called on him to be my guiding light and stuff. And he's, you know, we still talk today because that difference he made. So I want to be that for other men now because I know what a difference it can make in their life.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. When you think about, let me set up a situation and then you give advice, okay? I have toddlers in the home and they're getting on my nerves. I work hard to provide for my family, and the last thing I want to do is take care of the kids when I get home. What's your advice for that dad?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

That's what your job is. It's tough. Um, give you an example. Don't do what I did. I did that, and I came home and I'd play with them some, but then when I got anything tough, then I'd pass it on to my wife and be quite honest. When I get home, I'd wonder why the hell the meal wasn't on the table before I went to that crucial experience. There was a time I remember, and she listens to this, she doesn't like it when I say it, but it's true. There was laundry in a clothes basket that was done. All it needed was fold it and stuff. And they were probably five, three and one at this time, let's say. Um, on that side. I went to work, I come home. That same clothes was in the clothes basket. Now I was a smart enough guy that I didn't say, God, you didn't even get those full clothes folded today. I didn't say anything. But do you think I helped? I didn't pick up them clothes and fold them either. I expected her to just do that. But guess what? When you're married, it's not about 50-50. It's not about you're carrying the weight, bringing home the bacon, bringing home the money, and then you don't have to do anything at home. It's a hundred to hundred. You have to be part of the solution. And your wife is just as tired. I don't care, even if she stayed home, if she stays home and doesn't do anything else and stuff, to manage that household is tough. I didn't realize it earlier. As a man, man up, as they say. You know, it's your job to participate and be part of that. I always thought to make the bed, that was her job. Why the hell is that her job? You know, if you get out of the bed, you can make it too, and stuff on that side. So it's really figuring out that when you show up, and then you know, let's be honest, you know, we're talking to guys here, right? What's one of our big things that we all want? More normally the guy has a higher sex drive, right? It's known, it's a fact. Not 100%, but pretty darn, it's probably in the 90s, right? But the problem is, then we want more sex, and then we wonder why they won't give it, but we don't ever want to help. Well, if you show up more, you're probably more likely gonna come together on better terms on that side of it because you're giving them some relief. Now, don't do it for the sex, do it because you want to do it. But the thing is, if you show up for that individual, think about faith life. In our faith, who's supposed to lead the household? The man. It says it in the Bible. But how many men right now are playing absentee fathers because I don't want to go to church today or I don't want to go to that service, I don't want to practice anything, I don't want to read the Bible. What's what are you giving your children? What's the morals and values? If we lose our morals and values as a country like we have over the last 10, 20 years, you can do the numbers. What will they have to hang on to? Your our job when we are parents is to set the future for them. And if they don't have a foundation, how will they ever really be strong in that? So, as fathers, my encouragement to you is show up, be part of it. And when you're tired, I understand that. But find those rest periods, but also find times because normally you get a chance to go out, but also give your spouse time to get out. That's one thing I encourage my wife to go with your girls, go with the friends and stuff. When she comes back, it's always a better far as in relationship. Have your time together too, but also have those others. Men, date your wife yet. Why do we date them and we, you know, do all these great things for them? But then when we get married, after a year or two years, maybe it's five years for you, but at some point we stop dating our wives. If she is the love of your life, you've got to make her the love of your life. So you can get me on a preach there, but I and I I can't say I do it 100%. I'm not great, so I'm not sitting here telling you, but I remind myself, but I read books to remind myself. I listen to podcasts. How can I become better? You know, one thing I started doing recently, and my wife, I don't know if she's totally caught on to it. That's fine, doesn't have to. But every morning when I get up and I see her, I give her a kiss and I say, Good morning, beautiful. You know what? The beautiful is not really for her, it's more for me because she's the ones that I got to keep my eye on. Otherwise, as men, let's go, let's be honest. What can happen? Eyes can trail really easy, and then you can think something's better somewhere else. Instead, keep your eyes on your love.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

You are on fire. We're gonna get so many different things from here that are gonna add so many value, so much value to dudes who are trying to figure it out. There's two things I want to hit on, and then we're gonna go on some final thoughts. And um, one of them is without that experience that you had on that retreat, you might be the same man you were before the retreat. And so I look at my life and I sometimes realize that my experiences have made a massive impact on who I am today. If I'm a dude and I listen to this podcast and I've never had a spiritual experience like that, what's your recommendations? What are your thoughts? How can I experience what you experienced?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Well, first is look for it. Um, that's the big thing is find out what works for you. And, you know, there's all types of experiences out there. So be a learner, be out there and tell yourself, you know, some of it you can get some books, some of it you can get some podcasts, but also when you experience those, take those to heart and then just start putting little things in place. You know, you heard me say, you know, just the simple thing of telling your wife, I picked that up somewhere else. It may not have been the exact thing that that person said, but I said, you know, I need to start using something like that and telling myself that, but also showing that appreciation. So just find those little nuggets that you can. And then I'm a habit guy, you know. I talk about charge, create habits around real goals every day. Those are small little habits that you can create. We brush our teeth every day because why? It's a habit. Find those little things that you can do to appreciate your wife that she's there. And then, you know, just like reading the Bible. Maybe you say, Oh, I don't do that. Well, then start off with five minutes a day, just getting up five minutes early, and maybe it's just giving yourself some time to think before your day starts. Mine's about an hour long now, but it takes a long time to get there. Give yourself five to 15 minutes. That becomes the little small things that really compounds and really makes a difference. So do those small little things, and they'll turn out to be bigger things.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

It's so good and so true. And so, if you're a listener and you're trying to think of like, hey, I want to be a better man, but I haven't had this experience. Go seek it out. And uh, if you seek, you will find. And so let me go into another spot, and this is more of me interjecting. I literally remember when my kids were little, and this is your story, but I'm trying to share for our listeners. I remember going home, sitting in the driveway. This is such a vivid memory, and I had three little girls, the most beautiful girls you could ever imagine. And I was exhausted, and I sat in the car and I just cried because I didn't, I was tired. And I just basically prayed and said, God, give me the energy to give everything I got at this moment. I really believe when you said that when we get home is when our job begins. That's so true. Is there anything you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, I think really is realizing that sometimes we don't have the strength, but there is one person that has that strength. And when we realize that, that would be the thing. And I'll be honest, when I realized really started relying on my faith, that's when it got stronger. Um, and you talk to any man that's been successful and really understands that, they know that they get their strength through the Lord, and that's that'd be my encouragement to you. So if you're not right now, that's okay. Maybe your path is not where we're at right now. Just start. Give yourself those three to five minutes, start showing up in the Bible and stuff, and look those lessons that Jesus gave us way back, and they still apply to our life every day.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Thank you for that. And so I'm gonna we're gonna close on you sharing a story that you hinted at, but you didn't say exactly what happened. And then I'm gonna ask you a question to follow up. You said that your dad made you so mad, frustrated the tar out of you, but you didn't share what exactly what did he do? Would you mind just walking me through the story of what he what what is the memory there?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Probably the one that really where I got the maddest was when I had friends over, and it was the embarrassment that he gave. And what he did is just started yelling and screaming, um, you know, at the us boys, and we were being boys, you know, and stuff on that side of it. But of course, he was drunk at that point in time, and he thought we were too loud on that part of it. But he just got kind of up in our face and stuff, came out and came down. Normally he would not come where we were at. We were in our basement and stuff on that side, and just came down there and kind of chewed us out and stuff on that side. Well, I knew he was drunk. I don't even know if they knew he was drunk at the time and stuff. They probably thought, oh, he's just yelling because we're cutting up and having a good time and stuff. But to me, it was the embarrassment of where I really got mad because I felt like he embarrassed me on that side. And be quite honest, it was an embarrassment that then I carried because I have friends that through high school, um, just recently, probably less than five years ago, told one of my buddies and stuff he didn't know my dad was an alcoholic. Because I carried that most of the time by myself. Not a times I didn't ever want to go to my house because I know that possibility was there. So very seldom did I come to my house with my friends and stuff on that side, but that time I did, and I think it was just that embarrassment that came there. But I also I think I carried that so much within myself throughout the years and stuff. And I was surprised, my buddy, when he said, I never realized your dad was an alcoholic and stuff and stuff, because of course, as guys and in high school, not something you discuss, right? It was something that I carried. I just carried that load that was there, and that was kind of that pain that I had of being able to forgive him. I had a hard time forgiving him, and I'm still fortunate, I feel that my wife had that conversation with me and that I was able to do that before he passed.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

How old were you at that event? Um, at when I forgave him. No, where he embarrassed you in front of your friends.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Oh, I was in high school, probably my junior year in high school, so back in about 1983, 84.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

So let's say 16, 17. So on the night of that event, everyone's gone, and you're in your room and you're seething. If you could go back at this age, where you are right now, and you could sit across the room the across from your yourself in that bedroom, what would you say looking back now to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I think the biggest is I would probably go more inner and ask God to intercede. I don't think I ever asked during those times the challenges that I had. Um, you know, I was still going to church and doing those things, but I kind of I closed it off um inside. And it was kind of like a box of me. And probably at that time, what I did at that time is just close it off and try to forget that memory, even when I came back to school and everything else on that side of it. Where instead now I think I should have opened it up a little more, should have had some of that discussion, should have probably even said something to you.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

No, I want you to actually for a moment imagine you going into that room and you're giving yourself advice. You're speaking into your head what you need to know and what you need to believe. What would you speak into your 16, 17-year-old self if you could go back today?

SPEAKER_00 37:20

I think the part I would speak into myself is I would walk in that room and say, first thing is get down on my hands and knees and say, Lord, I can't carry this. I need you to carry it. I need to let it go. I need to not be embarrassed by it because it's not my weight that I'm carrying. But I want to pray for my dad. And I want you to take this weight that I have today, and I want you to help him with that because I know he can't see it, Lord. I can't see it because all I can do is go internal. Instead, I want you to take this. Instead of me carrying it, this is your cross now. I know why you died for us on the cross. I know why you are the savior of the world. Let me realize that I need to believe in you instead of believing in myself or worrying about what I feel instead. Let me give it all to you, Lord. I think that would be the difference.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

You would lead yourself to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

That's so powerful. Um looking back, this is your your the final question I'm going to ask you. Um, what is it? Well, I'm fighting with a couple of different thoughts, but I think the the right way to do it is is actually go to this other thought. If I'm listening to your story, but I have things that are unforgivable that my dad did, or by a lot, you know, or adopted dad, is there anything so grievous that one of our listeners could have experienced where they get a pass and say, you know what, it's okay. You don't have to forgive your dad. What would you speak inside of someone's life who's really struggling with forgiving their dad for things they did that they wouldn't tell anybody about?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Well, first off, I want to, you know, know that I understand that feeling, but the thing is, is forgiveness is more for you than them. And that's the thing that I didn't realize is when we forgive someone that we feel has done wrong to us, we are the one that gets healed. Doesn't mean they'll change, doesn't mean anything will change about that. But even if that person has passed away now, go to their funeral plot, go where they're buried, and let them know you forgive them and truly have that prayer of forgiveness that's there. Because when we forgive, our heart heals. It's not about the other person, you know. They have to decide to accept it. You can't make them accept it. But the only difference is if I truly let that heal, then I don't carry that anymore. Otherwise, that's with you the rest of your life. It's with you every day. It triggers you on certain things that's happening when your kids do do something bad. It triggers you to have a reaction that you really don't want to have. And you think that's not it, but what happened? You close that off in a section of your brain, in your heart, whatever, wherever you want to say, and it comes back to haunt you time and time again. So let it go, you know, and again, don't rely on just yourself. You know, give that person that forgiveness, but then rely over the next several weeks, months, whatever it takes that you allow that to heal. And there's only one person, you and I are both believers, that there's only one person, the Lord, that can heal that. And you give that time to heal. I've seen it time and time again. I've been in different cursiles and that spiritual retreats, and men have a hard time. They think, well, I've done something so bad that I can't be healed from it. If you give it up to the Lord, I guarantee you you'll feel healing. Not in that moment always, but over time you can be healed from it and move forward. And that's what to me forgiveness does. It gives you that healing that you can't get anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

So good. The person that is actually getting the healing is yourself. That's so powerful. Gary, I want to thank you for sharing your story. You've been an incredible guest, and I look forward to you know seeing how your journey continues as you're a model to other men that are that are also struggling and trying to figure out what their identity looks like. And so, Gary, thank you so much for being a guest.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Well, thanks for what you're doing. This is a great podcast that you're helping other men, and I appreciate you, brother.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Yep, love you, Gary. You have a great day.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

You too.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Forgiveness is more for you than them.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

I had inner peace for the first time in my life.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

It's just Jesus. Just Jesus.