The Spiritual War You’re Fighting Is About Your Father

A candid roundtable discussion on demonic warfare, forgiveness, and spiritual authority. Spiritual warfare is real—and unforgiveness can keep you trapped. In this Dudes Without Dads roundtable, we unpack Luke 11, deliverance, and why demons “return” when a life is swept clean but not filled with the Holy Spirit.

In this episode:

• Luke 11: where demons go “seeking rest”
• Real stories: prison, overdose, church hurt, missions
• Forgiveness, repentance, and closing spiritual doors
• Prayer as the battle plan for dads who want freedom

Next steps
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Guest Application: dudeswithoutdadspodcast.com

#forgiveness #spiritualwarfare #christianmen

Chapters / Timestamps

00:00 Intro: “He’s stronger than you… but God moves the pieces”
 00:01 The question: Where do demons go? (Luke 11)
 00:02 Jason’s story: salvation, unforgiveness, spiral
 00:05 “Swept clean” without the Holy Spirit (religion vs. renewal)
 00:06 Exorcism story: spirit returns with more
 00:08 Prison testimony: JD, mercy, then the warning
 00:09 Subscribe break: mission of Dudes Without Dads
 00:11 Years later: JD returns in chains—“I didn’t go to church…”
 00:14 Tim’s story: prayer, deliverance, power of Jesus’ name
 00:17 Sweden: “don’t get trapped in the veneer”
 00:22 Night attacks/sleep paralysis + the occult doorways
 00:27 Repentance, discipleship, and why we “toss people to wolves”
 00:28 Missions story: witchcraft mountain + downstream anxiety
 00:35 “The world lies in the sway of the wicked one”
 00:41 Forgiveness: the artery blockage / revival of prayer & forgiveness
 00:43 Prayer that stopped revenge and saved a future
 00:48 Final question: forgiving others + forgiving yourself
 00:50 Practical forgiveness: speak it out loud, start with Jesus
 00:56 Forgiveness & justice: release them to the Judge
 00:59 Church hurt story: forgiveness as a process
 01:03 Closing prayer (Ephesians)
 01:06 Guest invite: share your story

fatherhood, father wound, sonship, men's ministry, christian men, healing, identity, intentional fatherhood, dudes without dads, joshua brown, eric manly, the intentional dad, generational curses, masculinity, christian podcast, faith and fatherhood, becoming a better dad, father absence

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Here's the deal. The one you're playing against, he's stronger than you, he's smarter than you, he's faster than you, he's been playing this game longer than you, and you'll never beat him.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Satan likes to be mysterious and and not overexpose himself. Like our brother said, it this is the reality. He's there, and he prowls like a roaring lion.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

And I remember telling them, sin no more, less a worse thing come unto you. My life was just spirrolling downhill, depression, alcoholism, incarceration, deaths by despair.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

The one guy who showed up is just Jesus. If you can give a man clarity and community, he can start to live out his personality. You can break generational curses of alcoholism.

SPEAKER_06 0:43

Welcome to Dudes Without Dads, the show that trains men how to become the dads they never had. So here's the question that we're we're covering today, and it's where do demons go when they have nowhere to go? Do any of you have experiences or stories just dealing with demonic spirits?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Um, right when you shared that, Josh, my mind went to Luke there, the Gospel of Luke, chapter 11, where uh Jesus himself said, When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places seeking rest and finding none. He says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Yeah. Um there's they're just the restless are seeking somewhere to go, you know, when they when they leave a person or anybody have anything to no Gabriel, when you say that, that's the exact story that leads me into this conversation.

SPEAKER_06 2:01

Is when I gave my life to Jesus Christ, I had a friend named Jason that was my roommate. And you know, when you come to know Jesus, other people around you are like, Man, I want what you got. And and Jason ended up giving his life to to the Lord. And he started going to church, he got baptized, he got you know, just excited to live for God. And there was one conversation that we had that has never left me. And you know, gentlemen, the reason I'm even bringing this up is because of this story is Jason and I were discussing after church this issue of forgiveness. And with tears in his eyes, he said, Joshua, you don't know what my father has done to me. I wish I was more sympathetic at that time. Remember, I was a 20-year-old kid, I was just straightforward. And I said, Well, scripture teaches that if you've been forgiven of your sins, you've got to forgive your father for the wrongs that he's done. Now, I don't know how bad it was, but I will tell you this Jason's life was free. He he was reading his Bible, he was free from certain drugs and things that he was living in. He started seeking the Lord. But as he continued down the path, he never forgave his father. And so when I asked the question, where do demons go when they have nowhere to go? I want us to talk about they're coming back. And according to that passage that you read, Gabriel, they're coming back. And three years later, I got the horrific news that Jason's life sponged downhill and his situation was worse than ever before. He ended up dying of a drug overdose of hard drugs he had never played with on the side of the road in Strat off Stratford Road in Winston-Stalem, North Carolina, in a homosexual relationship. And he was never practicing any of those behaviors. And so when you read that word Luke, it makes me think about my friend, my friend who I'm love, that ended up going down a dark path. And in my mind, it was because he didn't have the capacity or whatever we want to say, he couldn't choose to forgive those that have done him wrong. And so that's that's kind of where we're getting into this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, in in the passage, it was really interesting that Jesus was talking about religion to start with, and he used the demonic realm as an illustration, something that none of us would have known. I mean, Jesus knew something about the activity of demonic spirits. And he and he describes somebody who leaves their life of sin and uh whatever you know evil that was in them, um, because they clean up their life and then they become religious. Jesus likens that to seven more deadly spirits because of course they become Pharisees. And he says, so the end condition of that person is worse than the first. And so looking at the analogy, it's kind of like when Jesus talks about the rich man and Lazarus. Again, that's when he pulls the veil back and says, Let me show you something in the spiritual realm that's good. None of us knew that was happening, none of us knew, and Jesus wasn't being figurative. There was never anywhere where Jesus told a parable that was not based on something that really happened. So when people ask, Did that does that really happen with demonic spirits? Oh, yeah. And and to uh give uh an anal uh uh an actual story where this happened in an exorcism that I was not present in. Uh, and I have been present in many exorcisms, but I was not present in this one. This was the man who trained me, the pastor that that I served under as a young man. He told me a story, and actually my youth pastor was there as well. And this is back in the 80s. We were the the third Calvary chapel ever planted. And so this had happened probably mid-1980s, and I didn't get there until about 87. And it happened about two years before. Um, there had been a girl who was possessed, and um she was exercised and she said, Let me, can I go into the bathroom and wash my face? And she sh they said, sure. And of course, when she came out, they were going to um lead her to Jesus. And she went into the bathroom and she was in there for you know, maybe five minutes, and I'm like, Well, it's a long time. And some battle had gone on because when she came out, it was there again. Uh, and and the strange thing about like the demonic, you can not only feel them, there's the discernment of spirits when they manifest, but her eyes had a certain look to them, and you know, and and it I I won't go into that at this point, but uh they had to do it all over again. And I remember the pastor telling me that it was much more difficult because she had more of them in her on the return. So that's an actual story where it actually happened, where more came in because Christ was not there. And so when Jesus gives an analogy and says the demons come back and find that the house is swept and clean, that demon was cast out, but there was nothing to prevent them from entering back in because you need the presence of the Holy Spirit to be in that person. When the presence of the Holy Spirit is there, a believer cannot be possessed. Can they be demonized? Like in other words, can they be oppressed? Can they have demonic influences? Yes. Can they um manifest the demonic like your friend? Yes. But can they be fully possessed in the as in the case of a non-believer? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_06 8:02

Anybody else have anything they want to share there?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

So I have a similar, kind of similar story, like my brother here. Um, because as you guys know, I got I got saved in um a high security prison, right? And there was plenty of demon activity going on in there, you know. You guys could just imagine the darkness, you know, we're literally in dungeons. Okay. And um the Lord just radically, like I shared with you guys, got a hold of my heart, you know. Um, and I got saved. I began to read the Bible, and I began the I didn't know this at the time, but the Lord gave me the gift of just evangelizing, man. The little Jesus I knew, I just began to share with people, right? And I remember inmates would come and share. They would then they would come and I was as I was reading the Bible, they would say, Hey, can you read to me? You know, and I would read. I would read the words, I would read the word of the words of Jesus and stuff. So, anyways, particular time, this one guy came to me, um, and I still remember his name, J D. You know, we called him JD, and he said, Hey Gabriel, daughter Million, um you do you think that God can give me a second chance? This guy was looking at like a long, long time. And and he was like, but I think he was kind of trying to mock it at first. Like, you think your God can do this for me, bro?

SPEAKER_06 9:32

Like, you know, and I said, Well, I want to thank you for taking time to listen to this story. And if there's something inside of here that is adding value to you, I want you to stop and hit subscribe. I am on mission to help men become the dads they never had. Many of us struggle with father wounds, addictions, identity issues. And really what we need is we need a model. We need to see people that have broken the patterns and come alongside of them. I want to simply invite you to join me on the journey. Every Thursday, we're gonna release a new episode. Each episode is gonna help you and others become the dads they never had. Hit subscribe and share with a friend. Now let's get back to the story.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

My God can do anything he wants to do, right? But the first things first, you gotta be his. And so, anyways, I end up sharing with him, you know, the importance of belonging to him. And and amazingly, man, he was just like, Oh, okay, yeah, no, I understand. Now, we don't know what's going on in the inside. We don't know if the guys just I need this bargain or not, right? You what do we say? We we can tell a tree by its fruit, okay? So, anyways, I end up praying. I just prayed, Lord, this man needs a miracle. You know, the little faith, but because it was mustard seed, I don't think I think that's as deep as I went. I said, Lord, he need can you just have mercy on him? May he just go to court and the charges dropped, and and he just goes to his family. He comes back the next day and he's like, Gabe, man, I don't know what you prayed, but they dropped all the charges. I'm going home. And I remember telling them, sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you. I remember like it was yesterday, and he was like, Yeah, man, I'm gonna go to church. When I get out, it's gonna be good. So, anyways, he's like, What can I do for you? You need money on your books, and money on your books is so you can buy stuff in there, right? So I was like, No, man, just when you go to church, have them pray for me and for those of us that are in here, you know. And he's like, Yeah, man, I'm gonna go to church. So, anyways, fast forward, I don't know what happened in J uh JD. I was in there another three years, you know. And what ends up happening after I was released, we got this opportunity to go to another prison yard, a high control prison yard called Centenella State Prison, right? For an outreach. Um, it was called Big House Revival. I don't know if you guys have heard of it or not, but we ended up going there. And while we were there, I kid you guys not. It must have been about five, not five, six years later from that encounter with him. I see JB walking, shackled from head to toe. And he comes to me, and I and it was just divine appointment. The CEOs let me talk to him because we were in the prison yard, and I said, JD, what happened? We locked eyes, and he was like, I didn't go to church, and I went out there and committed a murder, and I'm gonna be in here for the rest of my life. And I just thought to myself, like, Lord, like this exact thing happened to him, you know. He didn't feel like my brother Peyton was saying that he wasn't sealed with the spirit, he wasn't filled with the Lord, you know, and that is something extreme that has never left me because it's you can't play God, man. You can't. And when I think of JB, man, my JD, my my heart does break, you know. But exactly what we just read happens, man. Uh just something that his state now is much worse than what he first was, you know. So I just I that's one of one of my stories. I can give you guys, we're not gonna glorify it, but I was in there, man, and some dudes were off the wall.

SPEAKER_06 13:41

Yeah, super sad. When you're sharing, it reminded me of a a friend named Kim. Um, I lived in Winston Salem, North Carolina for a period of time, and and Kim when I was in New Hampshire, and he ended up becoming on house arrest because he was around when a guy got shot and he died. Nobody reported him, so he ended up coming back and living with a friend of mine. And have you ever said something quick and you wish you didn't say it?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

All the time.

SPEAKER_06 14:12

So I was so I was so dumb, okay. And I and you guys can argue I probably still say some stuff, but at that time, if I saw something, I would say something. And I wouldn't have man, I was radically safe for Jesus, okay? So like it was Kingdom of Darkness, Kingdom of Light, and I just I just said it the way I saw it. So he he was a fan of like Grateful Dead. Y'all know the little bears that look different colors and they're dancing and stuff like that. And I and he has like a tattoo on his you know chest or you know, on it. And I said, Man, the only people that go, I just said it like this the only people that go to Grateful Dead parties are people who do drugs and uh just go go to get high. I don't even know why you'd go there. I didn't like this was my first interaction with him. Like there was no, like, hey, I'm it was like I just said what I thought. It was at Emerald Point, this uh water park. Later that night, I'm at this uh fellowship hall celebrating my wife's birthday. It was June 27th. And I didn't know there, but Tim was tore up. And he showed up at this party to confront me and to give me a hard time for what I said. As soon as I saw Tim walk in the door, I didn't know he was there to confront me. I just said, Tim, can you come chat with me in the uh in the kitchen? It was one of those old church fellowship halls there, you know, you had you'd have food in one side and there would be a door that you go in and go into the kitchen. We went in there and I said, Tim, can I pray for you? I wrapped my arms around him, just like this. I mean, I'm telling you, it was this fast. Put my arms around him and I said, From the top of your head to the bottom of your feet, pray that the power and the blood and the love of Jesus Christ would come over your life. He turned around and walked out. Three or four hours later, I get a phone call from the guy that he was living with, Doug. I was at a movie theater, I'd probably see an emo crying at that time. I answered the phone because the phone was ringing in the theater, and I said, Hello. And Doug said, What have you done to Tim? I'm like, What are you talking about? He said, Tim is crying like a baby. Later on, Tim told me that he heard screaming leaving him as I was praying over him. And that is the day that he looks back and says, He experienced the love and the power and the grace of Jesus Christ. And so I just know, man, that there's power in prayer and in the name of Yeshua Hamashiach, like there's power in the blood of Jesus, but there's dudes out there that have never experienced it. Anyone else have anything you want to share?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, I think sometimes we just look for it all in the creepy. And so when I was, you know, we're we live in Sweden now with my wife and three kids. Um here there's a saying, like they it's this word called lagom. Lagom means like think Goldilocks and the three bears, like not too hot, not too cold, like just right. And so it's a it's a post-secular society. And so like Martin Robinson wrote a paper, and it was 95% of Swedes are a member of the Church of Sweden. Less than 8% adhere to any kind of Christian worldview whatsoever. And so people are members of the Church of Sweden because it's like you get you get benefits and you're in the club, but there's not this Christian worldview. And so it's post-secular. So people are starting to seek again, but they're not necessarily interested in the traditional church. So when I came here, you see this like la gomeness. There's just this like, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want to rock the boat, I don't look strangers in the eye. I just like, I just keep to myself. I want everything la gome, just like this. And so when we bought a house this past year, I we're in this little town right now. Like I'm I'm in the city now at the train station. I'm in my office, like right above the train station. We live a couple miles from here. And we're in this area where it's like kind of a newer development and it's it's like little townhouses, stuff like that. And then in Sweden, there's a lot of big, beautiful, just farmland fields, gorgeous nature here. And so one night, like it's only five o'clock in the evening here. It's already it gets pitch black at like four now, it's just dark all winter. But I went for this run last year, and then it was, I don't know, five, six in the evening. It was dark out. As I'm running, I get outside of where the little city area is, and so I can see the lights from the shops and from my neighborhood, and I'm running, and there's all the fields to my right. And as I'm running, look, I hunt, okay. So I know what I know what pigs sound like, I know what coyotes sound like, I know what wolves sound like. I know, like I've heard, dude, from to my right, I heard I don't know how to describe it. It is the most horrifying screech. Just this guttural roar. I've never heard anything like it. And it stopped me in my tracks. So I stopped and I look over to the right, and obviously it's pitch black over there, I can't see anything. I look back to the left and I had a choice. I was like, all right, are you gonna be a chump? Are you gonna turn around or are you gonna keep running? Like, I'm not a chump, I'm 5'4, but I'm not scared of nothing. And so I like probably like a dummy, I kept running that way. And but as I kept running, I start praying. And dude, it was it was as clear as day. He said, that is the reality. This La Gomme, like this Truman show life that you see, where everybody's like they they drive their Volvo and they work at Volvo, and they they they take fikas multiple times a day and they watch television at night, like everybody kind of doing the same thing, like, and everything looks don't get tricked, don't get trapped in that because this is the reality of what's happening. This is what you're gonna miss. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is good, pleasing, and perfect. And it's like, look, I know you moved into this neighborhood, but don't let this neighborhood move into you. Don't don't turn into this. Remember what you came here for, remember what's actually happening, like see beyond the veneer of what's happening here and see into the reality of not only what's going on, but also like look at what I'm doing. Like, look for me in this. Don't look for the screeching weirdo in the darkness. Like, look for what I'm doing. Look for redemption that I'm bringing in this place and then be a part of it. Seek that, look for that. Don't look for the darkness and the weirdness. Look for the light, and I'll show you. And that's like, that's how we've started these gatherings. That's how we've seen these baptisms, that's how we've seen people start to come to Christ. It's not because we're trying to like run around, cast out demons, but it's also not because we're trying to run around and like shake people into lava. It's it's like it's just bathed in prayer and looking for what God is doing, and then just partnering with him in that.

SPEAKER_06 21:51

Powerful, man. When you were reading to this morning, my devotion was in Colossians, and it says, For he has rescued us from the domain. Of dominion of darkness and transferred us into this kingdom of his beloved son. So good. Peyton, question for you. I'm just sharing based on my experience. Love to hear your feedback on this. When I first came to Christ, I can account three different times where something visited me at night, where it would wake me up, it would be on me. I'm telling you, it was on me. And I would start shaking uncontrollably. And I had to utter out the words, Jesus. It felt dark. It felt demonic. Is that true? Is it in my mind? Is do these things happen? And I would say within the the six months after giving my life to Jesus, I remember three encounters that were dark, that I had to get out the name of Jesus. Anything anything you know about this?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, I uh you know it's it's funny. We were talking about this before the recording that it's called the occult, right? For for a reason. And that is it, Satan likes to hide. Occult means hidden in darkness. And so when uh Satan likes to be mysterious and and not overexpose himself. Um like our brother said, it this is the reality. He's there, um, and he prowls like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. I mean, that's kind of been the theme so far. But the reason that the occult works is that tactic makes us more superstitious and allows us to build him up. So when he puts on the Halloween mask and tries to scare us, um, that's not what he looks like. Right. He's tapping into our worst fears and terrors, but it itself is not the reality. It's a mask that he wears to try to appear bigger than he is. Now, all of us know that he's bigger than us. Um, I couldn't go against him any more than I could go against Mike Tyson, right? Um, but with the Lord, he's no bigger than the Lord. And um when I came to Christ, it wasn't just me who had similar experiences. The gentleman who led me to the Lord, he he came over and he said, Hey man, I know your family's in the occult, but he goes, I I think you need to kind of like get like almost like a uh an exorcism, like casting out of somebody. He goes, You need to just cast everything to do with them out of your life. Like I still had witchcraft books like sitting in my room, like, and I wasn't like super into witchcraft. I I dabbled, you know. Um, anyone who tells you that uh they were a you know nth degree warlock and this and that, they're just play acting, they're just making stuff up. That stuff doesn't really exist, it's all fantasy, right? It's it's you just playing around with the demonic. Um and again, it's a cult, like he will let you create a whole fantasy and reality to big him up because he loves glory, right? Um but like when we talk about him like this and expose him, it opens us up to spiritual attack. And so what I always do is I pray on either side of talking about something like this. Um and and that was what the gentleman said is he said, Hey, I think we need to gather up any paraphernalia, and you need to just almost cast him out of your life completely. Um and you need to take responsibility. It's much like what we see uh in the book of Acts, where uh the Ephesians take all their witchcraft books and burn them. And we literally went down to the beach into a fire pit, burnt it, and he said, Great, and and it was funny because um taking that stand against Satan and just saying, Hey, that door's shut, right? You don't you don't get to come in through any of these avenues anymore. That's part of repentance, right? So um that that yeah, I mean, I definitely had experiences with that, and I I think we don't talk about repentance, and I love where this conversation is going with like the topic of unforgiveness, um, the topic of of repenting, because with our message of the gospel today, it's hey, slip up your hand, welcome the family of God, you know. Uh, there's no follow-up, there's no, there's no real like following Jesus day to day that comes up. We we don't know how to assimilate people like the early church did. And because of that, we we kind of this is what we do, right? Someone comes to Jesus and we go, Hey, welcome to the family of God. You know, here's this thousand-page book. Read this. You need to. Uh, okay. Hey, and you gotta pray. Don't worry, prayer's real easy, it's just talking to God. And they're like, uh, right? I don't know how long you've been saved, but prayer's not just as simple as talking to God. It and and then uh they say, Oh, by the way, tell everybody else because you know, someone told you that's why you're here. None of these things are saying is wrong, it's just not as helpful as we think. And before we go out the door, they go, Yeah, wait a second. Uh oh, I forgot to tell you. There's this guy named the devil, he hates you, he's coming after you, he wants to steal, kill, and destroy you. See you next week. Bye. And you're like stumbling out of the church, like uh, I have no idea what was just said to me, but it's almost kind of like toss us to the wolves, right? And we can do better, we can do better. So uh I'll shut up because I've been talking too long, but um but I just opening that up a bit.

SPEAKER_06 27:44

That's awesome. Yeah, anybody have anything to add or share or question?

SPEAKER_03 27:49

We're gonna attempt to talk. Is my microphone jacked up? We can hear you. Okay, I'll try not to touch anything.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Um I have a couple of things, and I have a lot of things that pop through my head as people are talking. I don't know usually which ones to share. Um, but I I recently heard this is maybe the most relevant, um, where they were talking about they asked Chat GPT, basically you may have heard this before, to ask ChatGPT if I was Satan and I wanted to do uh harm to the world, what would I do? And it if ChatGPT may be Satan, I don't know what this is, but it's it's listing, you know, how he would um how he would kind of infiltrate the church and subtly kind of work his way in. And it reminds me of what uh Peyton said where he's like this overt big mask in your face fear thing, that's tapping into something that we uh that we have. That's not that's not the reality of the thing. The reality of the thing is much more subtle and much more invasive and you know, and and much more harmful to in the grand scheme of things than you know, you know, a jump scare. You know what I mean? That's what my kids call uh jump scares. Um I had so this is this is my one um my one story. I've got several, but one that sticks out to me, which because we were I lived in Africa under what was called the first year missionary program, and I lived in Swaziland. And at one point we were traveling to Mozambique, and we go up on this mountain in Mozambique, and as we're hiking up, Beggy, our translator, is telling us the name of the mountain, the nickname for this mountain is witchcraft. And uh, and it has clicks in the name of it, so I can't really say it as well. But he was telling us the name of the mountain is witchcraft. And I was supposed to go up there and speak to the local church body and talk to them because they're he had uh he had gone there on a mission trip for and so they had a small group of believers, five or six believers in the town, and I was gonna speak to the believers in the town, but they had invited all their friends, you know, it was gonna be this big deal. I'm like 20, 19, 20 year old. Uh, but for some reason, if I'm white there, I feel like they gave you some kind of credibility that was totally unearned. Um and so go up on the go up on the mountain. And uh I'm like, well, what should what should I talk about? And the conversation that Beggie had with me about what I should talk about is people making sacrifices of their children. And my mind, like totally rattled with that. Like, how am I supposed to what am I supposed to talk about again? This is the conversation I'm having with people. They're sacrificing their their own children. Yeah, yeah, that's the conversation. So we go up there, we get on the mountain, and as we walk around the mountain for a couple of days and we're visiting with people, I had a kid that had an epileptic seizure next to me uh while we're just laying there watching soccer, and he just starts flailing and foaming at the mouth and having an epileptic seizure. We had all these like occurrences, and Becky was telling me, in their opinion, they wanted us to leave because we were essentially stirring up the demonic. And all these occurrences that were happening were because we were there. And they so they were asking us to leave at that point. Um, that night, after Beggie and I had that conversation, they had a guy in town um who got a hold of a gun and went to um a school where they were having like an after-school program or something they were putting on and shot a bunch of kids at the school, shot his wife, um, and then turned the gun on himself and shot himself uh just right in front of us. This I it's the craziest thing telling this story because the craziest part about it was that they were asking us to go to his house and like I'm like, dude's in there with a gun, like let him figure it out. I don't want to go in there chasing this dude with the dungeon of Africa. There's no police up here, you know. Uh ends up shooting himself, and this is this is my experiences with the demonic. But the repercussions of that downstream for me was became this unhealthy relationship with anxiety and stress, and this this hopelessness that followed that interaction that was more demonic than any of the things that happened there. It was just this that weight of hopelessness that carried me for probably eight to ten years before I recognized any kind of uh relative sobriety or victory over it. And so it reminds me, um, every everybody has kind of figured this out. You talk about like a they they have a replacement, right? You you're you're not just emptying yourself, you're often finding some a higher power, right? You're you're worshiping something. And if I won't read the whole thing, but if you get a chance to go look it up, there's a speech by David Foster Wallace, totally secular, who talks about how everybody worships. If um, if you worship beauty, then you'll die a thousand deaths as your body withers before you actually die. If you worship money, you'll never have enough. If you worship power, you'll feel weak. If you, you know, and it's like everybody worships to some degree. What are you putting in that highest order? What are you putting in that seat? What order is your love in? You know, idol idols are misordered love in the Tim Keller uh terminology for it. And oftentimes if we misorder our love, that is a you know, a stronghold for the demonic to kind of not overtly take over your life and make you have epilepsy or shoot up a school, but to just kind of subtly make you forget about your duties as a believer or your relationship with the Lord becomes you you're immunized against it, you know. Uh Christianity is fatal, the disease is fatal. And we have often have a um a tendency to immunize ourselves. We give ourselves just enough of the disease that we don't actually get the fatal part of it, if that makes sense. That's kind of what you're saying, Curtis, about you know, the what was the weird Swedish word that you were talking about? Yes, easy, breezy cruise through, you're good, you know, flip and flood, kind of easy, easy way to go.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, when you when you were talking about that, my mind went to that verse in 1 John, where it says that we know that the whole world lies in the sway of the wicked one. And and that lies in the sway literally means in the Greek to to rock a baby to sleep. This sh go to sleep now.

SPEAKER_06 34:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Yeah, that feel that feels to me way more like way more weight than you know, the scary movie or the mask or the the thing like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

The thing that gave me so much confidence in all this when me and Matilda, when we came back from Australia and we were gonna plant the church, like I I I wasn't even licensed, like I had no business doing any of this. Like we had the big building, the project, like I had no business doing any of it. But people sent me to do it, and I was like, sounds good. I think God made it clear, He was with us. And so one night, like I I don't know what else to do because I have I have no skill set and tools to to figure this out and pull this off. And so the one thing that season taught me is that is the reality. Like, I just need to rely on prayer regardless. Like that is my duty. And so one night I was I was processing, we were, you know, running this big building project. And so I'm I'm my wheels are turning on, and I was like, I just need to get up and pray. And so I just started walking. As I started walking, me and Matilda met in Australia, and we were constantly we were playing chess all the time. It was like, it was it was a way to stay pure and hang out with a hot Swedish girl. And so we'd we'd play chess, but then I as I'm praying, I got this thing just dropped into my mind, said, Okay, you've been playing against her, but now you're on the same team. And here's the deal the one you're playing against, he's stronger than you, he's smarter than you, he's faster than you, he's been playing this game longer than you, and you'll never beat him. I was like, this is great. I'm glad I came out the prayer. And then dude, he said, but son, I will move the pieces for you if you let me.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

And so I got the this tattoo. I told Matilda about the prayer. Um, when I when I came home, I was like, I I don't I want a chess piece, but I don't want to get a queen because I might I don't I don't want to get a king because it might be kind of a little douchey. I don't know. Like, I don't I don't want to, and she's like, Well, get a pawn. I was like, Is it because I'm small? Is it they're they're they're front line, they're least in the kingdom. I'm like, Yes, ma'am, thank you, my helper. And so, but that was but that's what I've stuck with, man, ever since. It's like, I'm not, I can't figure any of this out. I don't know how to deal with him, his stuff. I don't, so I'm just gonna keep my eyes fixed. I'm not gonna worry about the wind and the way I'm like, I'm not, I'm not gonna give it weight in my life. Yeah, I'm just gonna stay focused and I'm gonna do everything I can to allow him to move the pieces because that's the thing about chess is if you're playing against a great chess player, they will set you up in a trap and make you feel like you're winning. And that was what I got in this. It's like he's so good at this, he will make it look like it's not checkers, checkers is dumb. You just move to the other side. Like, this is chess. Chess he'll make you look like you're winning, and he's just setting you up into a trap.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Oh, that sucks. This is what often when I'm watching uh Christians freak each other out with superstition, right? And you you guys know what I'm talking about. You turn on TikTok or YouTube and Facebook reels. Somebody's always trying to freak out Christians and get them really superstitious. We know it's a reality, we know it's there, but we also know that the Bible doesn't really pull the veil back much. And there is a reason for that because of what Cody just said, which is it's not about that. It's not about what he's doing, it's about what the Lord is doing. And again, going back to 1 John, where it says, Greater is he who is in you, the one who walks the earth. And and as we've been talking about unforgiveness and you know, the the seven demonic spirits coming back that you're worse off than the first. My mind keeps going back to um something that was said about replacement with what you said about AA and the replacement. When the spirit comes into our life, right, there's this degree of his presence and filling us, right? There's times where the spirit's presence in my life is like a trickle. And that's where unforgiveness, like an artery, right? Picture like your soul like an artery. Um you can get a bunch of plaque built up in your artery, and that flow is cut off. So sin, pornography, you know, alcoholism, uh, unforgiveness, all these things that we kind of let start replacing the Lord. We talked about idols earlier. When when we start letting those things take care of our needs instead of the Lord, it starts restricting the flow of the spirit. And unforgiveness is is one of those key things. I've always noticed whenever I go into a time of personal revival, unforgiveness is one of the, it's like just pushing, it's like when you you hear about the surgeries where they they they go in there and they either put the balloon in and they blow it all out, or they give you some chemical injection and they blow it all out. Unforgiveness is probably one of the most powerful things to opening up the flow of the spirit in your life. And the scripture even tells you, it's you know, Jesus says very plainly, and uh I've I've been all over the map theologically in my journey. I've been a Presbyterian, I've been a Welsh Calvinistic Methodist, I've been a Reformed Baptist, I've been a Free Methodist, I've been Calvary Chapel. Um, like Bono said, you've been all over and it's been all over you. Um the the reality is that um I have never yet found a theological way of answering what Jesus said, other than just to take it at face value, regardless of what tribe I've been through. Um where Jesus just says, I tell you the truth, unless you forgive others their sins, your father will not forgive you yours. We can play games with that all we want. But he said what he said. And he said it multiple times in different ways in the scripture. And and that unforgiveness, it it creates this blockage in our life of God flowing through us in the way that he needs to.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Peyton, when I talked to my my wife's grandfather here, he's I think he's in his 90s now, he said there was a, you know, like the Pentecostal movement hit in Sweden in 1906. And so this huge revival swept through Sweden. But then again in the 50s, and he described it. He said, it was a revival of prayer and forgiveness. A revival of prayer, like it's not not just people falling out, not all that it was a revival of prayer and forgiveness, like people coming to each other and just opening up and repenting, and just there was there was unity that was a result of the revival. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 41:51

Gabriel, you got something on your heart.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I do, man, because forgiveness is so powerful. It's so powerful. And I know that um earlier in my walk, you know, we we all know that it's a spiritual, there's spiritual warfare going on. And the enemy knows, um, for those of us that are new in the faith, like we've explained before when we first came to the Lord, he's not just gonna want to let you go, a lot, so to speak, right? I I used to tell everyone, man, I'm like hell's most wanted now. Came to Jesus, and all of a sudden, you know, the reality is because our eyes are open now, right? We see things, we see the evil, we call it for what it is. And I never forget just being in the honeymoon stage, kumbaya, working, man. I'm a new believer. I praise the Lord, a warehouse with my record hired me. You know, I got a job, which it was a miracle in itself, that somebody would hire me, man. And I'm working and things are going good, man. I'm going to midweek Bible study, I'm going to the prayer meeting, I was going to church on Sundays, I'm getting discipled by some of the elders. It's it's it's it's awesome. I'm loving life, right? And all of a sudden, I get a phone call one day from my wife. And sure enough, um, she says, Gabriel, you need to get home. The guys were just here, and and they pulled out a gun on me. And I'm like, what? What do you mean the guys were just and I I remember, man, I as I was driving home, all the like my brother said, all the all these arteries were beginning to get clogged, man. All these, all this evilness began to want to resurrect and my my thought process, you know, these murderous thoughts and and this hate began to want to come back. Like, how can how can these guys show up to my house and pull a gun on my pregnant wife, you know, in the lifestyle. I was delivered from that was like the ultimate, right? You don't disrespect family that way and stuff like that. So, anyways, I'm wrestling with all these thoughts, you know, and um I I I want to turn on some worship, but I can't. I want to start listening to Tupac all of a sudden. I need to get on that rider mode. No, I didn't go there, right? But I I just remember showing up to the house. And right when I before I got here, the Lord heard him so clearly. He said, Call Tommy, which was my pastor. And I'm like, What am I gonna call this dude for, man? I need a I can't call Tommy, I need to call the homie, I need to call somebody else, you know. But sure enough, greater is he that is in me than the one that's in. Okay, let me call Tommy. So I end up calling Tommy, and he can hear it in my voice, man. I just end up telling him what happened, how these guys showed up, they flashed the gun to my wife and and this and that. And I'll never forget what he said. He said, Gabriel, well, let's pray. Let's pray. And I said, What? I wasn't I was angry that he said, Let's pray. I don't know what I was thinking in my mind, but I remember telling them, Well, will you pray? You I can't pray right now, Tommy. No, you start. I'm angry. I'm I'm I'm I'm upset. And exactly what what my brother Payton said, man, he began to to pray about forgiveness, and unless you forgive, you know, and and and as he prayed, it was the Lord just began to just break me. And I and I remember just praying. He was like, Now, Gabe, are you ready to pray? I said, Yes, let's pray for this man's marriage, let's pray for this man's salvation, you know. And I be the perspective began to change, but that's where the battles won. And you know, it's not we we are gonna wrestle against powers, right? Against rulers of darkness, what Ephesians says, man, it is a spiritual warfare, but how do we engage that, man? Through prayer, and I'll never forget I'm kidding, not, I think I was out like a year, if that it was like must have been like 2005 or so. And ever since then, man, it's just the power of prayer because in it of myself, oh my god, I would have been like JD, I would have been back in prison for doing something crazy, dude. But I listened to the spirit that said that tug, you know, that still that that that still quiet voice that a lot of us tend to tune out in our craziness, right? I I just said, okay, let's pray. Call Tommy. He began to pray, and we're here to say there's power in prayer. I know you guys, but uh my brothers, you guys bear witness to that.

SPEAKER_06 46:54

No, it's so good. And the reason we're even on this conversation is because we've got dudes that are going to be watching this and they're gonna be processing those who've who've done them dirty, done them wrong, done somebody they love wrong. And this past Saturday, I was speaking at this thing called the Man School in Nashville, and there's a bunch of former inmates there, and I'm sharing about forgiving my father or my um I had an abuser, someone that put my mom in the hospital, and I stayed at home with him, and he had a knife and put it up in my neck and and basically threatened. And I talked about forgiveness, and I saw dudes, their faces were shaken like this, and they had the anger look. They had the look of I cannot for how are you gonna forgive that dude? How are you gonna forgive that dude? And they're like shaking their heads or gritting their teeth. And I wish they knew, and those that are listened, I wish they knew that the freedom that comes when you choose to let the wrongs go. It's not saying it's right, it's just letting the offense go. And then you receive this spirit and this power and this ability to love people just for who they are and not for who they're not, which ends up making us almost like trans transparent. Like we don't have to be fake. We can be whoever we are, wherever we are, because we've let everything go. I'd like to ask you guys final thoughts on any dude that's processing how to forgive somebody, whether it's themselves, let's say they abuse somebody. Man, I'm I am aware that on YouTube there's gonna be people that are watching that have done dirty themselves and they're having a hard time forgiving themselves. And then there's things that that have been done to them by others. How what would you say to the dude that's struggling either, and I'll let each one of you chat share. What do you what do you say to the dude that's struggling for giving themselves or struggling for giving somebody else? Because in order to be the dad you never had, you've got to get to this spot of giving those who trespass to you. I'll let you guys just talk as you go.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

I think you need to call on us. I've talked way too much, so I'm not going first.

SPEAKER_06 49:11

So, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start with uh Mr. Mute Man uh Cody Unmute Man.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Yeah. I had a quick thought. My my mother, for I don't know, 50 years harbored bitterness towards her mother. And it, you know, it's just one of those divine appointment things. One day they're sitting out back, and my grandmother at this point is probably in her 80s. Um and they're talking about her childhood. And this has never come up with her and my mom before, but my mom started to soften towards her when she heard her story of the things that she had gone through, and my mom began to be able to forgive her. And that I I just think about that conversation a lot whenever I'm going, okay, I don't I don't excuse all of the activities she did. Um, one of the things that I've used often is this conversation about like uh to say in my own mind, whenever I'm hearing somebody make excuses or give things, I say reasons aren't excuses, and excuses aren't reasons. So those things are different. So giving it giving a reason why thing might why something might be the way that it is isn't necessarily giving an excuse for that thing to have happened or an excuse for that thing to continue to happen. But what it does is it places something that you can take responsibility over in your own life, or you can in Christ go, all right, where do I go from here? How do I have the ability to respond? Is what I break that responsibility. And no matter what the thing is, you have now taken on the ability to respond. And now the ability to respond is in forgiveness. Um, I would say in the last years of her life, my grandmother softened after that conversation, my mother softened after that conversation. Um healing happened directly as a result of that conversation. And in my mom for things that she had had bitterness and anger and anxiety over for 40 plus years. So you're right at the edge of having that conversation. And the first conversation to have is between you and Christ is to have that conversation of I don't know how to forgive. If you don't know how to forgive, say that prayer. Just say it, just sing it, just talk to the Lord out loud. I don't know how to forgive. And that's going to start some trajectory in your life, some divine appointments in your life. Something in your life will then start to, he will put the place the pieces in the place that will allow you the opportunity to respond. It's just what he does. He wants your ultimate healing. Um, and so I would say maybe that if I had something to offer, it's just sing. He's gonna tell you you're the only person that's ever gone through that. Just say it out loud. Say it out loud to yourself if you have to. Say it out loud to a brother if you need to. Message any number of us, Joshua, get it connected to people here. I mean, uh, you just gotta say it out loud to people and not be isolated into this position where you're the only person to ever have gone through that thing, to ever only feel those emotions, to ever only harbor unforgiveness. You're not. There's a way out. There's five of us sitting here who have experienced um the power of uh forgiveness, the power of Christ in in partnering with us in that process of forgiving.

SPEAKER_06 52:58

Yeah, so good. And for those that are processing, the fruit of choosing not to forgive is is casting a legacy vote for taking your family downhill. And so for the five of us that are here, there's five dudes that chose not to forgive. And their legacies are who knows where. And so if we're going to be the dads that we never had or try to be better parents, we've got to take the responsibility of saying, I am going to first receive forgiveness of my own sins. And so if we think about the Lord's prayers, someone that has been forgiven of much, it's a lot easier for them to forgive, forgive others. So if I'm throwing my two cents in, I want you to process the fact that God loves you just for who you are, not for who you're not. And the more time you say, Our Father who art in heaven, hallow be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And you say, Forgive me of my trespasses, and you stay there, the more you recognize that God loves you, He loves you, it then trend it then moves to a place of saying, if He can love something like this, he can I can love something like that. And that helps. I want to thank you for taking time to listen to this story. And if there's something inside of here that is adding value to you, I want you to stop and hit subscribe. I am on mission to help men become the dads they never had. Many of us struggle with father wounds, addictions, identity issues. And really what we need is we need a model. We need to see people that have broken the patterns and come alongside of them. I want to simply invite you to join me on the journey. Every Thursday, we're gonna release a new episode. Each episode is gonna help you and others become the dads they never had. Hit subscribe and share with a friend. Now let's get back to the story. Let's propel. Um, anybody else want to share something for any dude that's processing forgiveness or unforgiveness?

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Yeah, uh this this is always an interesting um thing to watch us try to hold on to unforgiveness. Um and it and it goes back to the question of justice. This is a justice question. Um if if we look at sin, right, no matter what people have done to us, the the Bible teaches us that nobody gets away with anything ever. So it doesn't matter if Hitler put a bullet in his mouth, you know, in his head, a gun in his mouth, he's not escaping justice, not in front of God. Everybody gets what they deserve unless justice is met at the cross for that person. But justice is always met because when people can't forgive, there's that justice thing that comes in. Forgiveness comes in and it's the Lord saying it's not about them. This is about you. This is about these people hurt you once, but you're locked in the bitterness of unforgiveness, you're still allowing them to hurt you again and again and again. So forgiveness is releasing them into the hands of God. It's it's your way of saying, I release you into the hands of the judge. I am no longer your judge, I am no longer your jury, I'm no longer your executioner. Um, what you did to me was not okay, but God knows better than I do, right? And and justice will be met for that person either in Christ at the cross or in the eternal judgment when they face them. But I am the one who's free now. And and Lloyd Jones said it this way: He said, the most powerful proof we will ever have that Jesus is real, rose from the dead, and his spirit is at work in the world is this that Christians can forgive their enemies. It is the most supernatural thing. And I love what you said earlier about I don't know how to do this. None of us knows how to do this. This has to be done by the spirit of God. Flesh and blood cannot reveal these things. So our brother started off Cody. That was beautiful and brilliant because it it comes with a surrender. Lord, I I like the man who said, I believe, but help me in my unbelief. I have a train that goes right by me too. I don't know if you can hear it. But um, I saw your train in the background in Sweden going by. I was like, hey, we're brothers. But um the the the reality is that um I I I had some deep unforgiveness towards uh uh it was it was terch, right? Which is kind of the worst kind because you're like, man, you you knew better, you know. We all knew better, and we, you know, we we screwed it up. And I remember I had so much bitterness. And my wife and I were driving down a road once, and uh, it was where this church I used to pastor was. And on the road, man, I I just started getting triggered. The more the more we're on this drive, heading to this town. We didn't even go to the town, but it uh we had to turn off before, but I didn't know that. Closer we got to this town, you know, we we stuff things, we push it down, and it comes up this unforgiveness and this bitterness. And it came up, and I was on my way to a youth retreat to speak to a bunch of kids about Jesus who didn't know Jesus. I was about to go evangelize, and I start just getting more and more angry in the car, and pretty soon I'm I'm raising my voice, and my wife's sitting right next to me, and then I'm cussing about it, and I'm yelling and I'm screaming, and my wife goes, pull over. And I it was like I snapped out, and I'm like, Well, she said, pull over, I'm getting out, I'm not staying in this car with you for another second. And that was a real wake-up call because you know I had prayed, oh Lord, forgive them, you know. But you know, um, but but forgiveness is a process, just like sanctification. Sometimes you think you forgive people, and then boom, you go, Oh, I didn't forgive them as much as I thought I did. And so just know it's a journey and the Holy Spirit will be with you every step of the way. Years later, I went back to Wales. I I had now moved back to America. Um, I remember really seeking the Lord, like help me forgive them because that was a wake-up call. But I couldn't sit down with them and have a meal with them. And and I knew, Lord, I still have not forgiven them like you've forgiven me. Um and and one morning I was there and I we were going to that town to visit some friends, and I get up that morning and I feel the Lord impress on me that you're gonna go to their house tonight and eat with them. And I'm like, no, I'm not no way. What are you talking about, Lord? I don't need to do that. I mean, I forgive them, and I'll I don't need to do that. And all throughout the day, and I sat on this and we're driving down that same road, and I look over at my wife and say, Hey, I think we're going to their house tonight. And I think, I think we're gonna ask for their forgiveness and tell them we forgive them. And my wife just goes, I think that'd be good. She didn't say anything else. And I said, Babe, because I could feel the Holy Spirit coming on me, giving me the ability to do something I did not have the natural ability to do. I didn't have that ability. There was this deep work of the spirit going on in my heart. You know, like when Paul says, for the love of Christ compels us, as if God were in us, recon, you know, pleading with the world be reconciled to God. That's what was happening. Like Jesus was in me, giving me his heart, giving me his love, because I didn't have it in myself, right? Um, and so the end of the story is all day I'm wrestling with it, but I can feel I'm being pushed, almost pulled towards their door. And I was given everything I needed for every single moment. And the Holy Spirit was overcoming every natural inclination to rely back on the flesh. And in the end, they opened the door. I knocked on it, I actually knocked on that door, and we're standing there, and they open it, and there was joy on their face, and they embrace this way, and I and but I'm just getting into the the the entryway of the house, and I said, Look, I came all this way. I I had to tell you that I am, and before I get out, he goes, Hey, listen, stop. The Lord just dealt with both of us. Let's just come and enjoy each other. We sat down and ate with him, spent two and a half hours there. The the I'm getting chills. The power of the Lord, you guys, that's stuff only He can do. Satan wants to keep you from that. And I have joy now. I go and visit them every time I'm back in Wales now that we spend time together. And it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:22

Jim, and I want to thank you for sharing your story. There's so much we could go inside. Almost every time we do a round table days, you probably will circle back around to forgiveness uh somewhere. But I want to invite Curtis just to close us out in prayer. And Curtis, I want you to think about there are going to be individuals that are thinking, they're praying, they're God's dealing with them. And I just want you to pray for those that are processing what God wants them to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Uh, this scripture came to mind while y'all were talking, so I'm gonna read it and then I'll pray. It's in Ephesians. It's Paul praying for this church, the people in this church. He says, For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches, he may strengthen you with power through his spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. And Father, I just want to pray that over these men that they would begin to grasp the immeasurable strength that you have and you desire to give them. Because I think one of the challenges we run into, Father, is we believe you can do a lot of stuff. We believe you're big, we believe you're strong, but then there are certain areas where, just like that man Peyton talked about earlier, I believe, help me overcome my unbelief. And Father, we need you in those moments. And so I pray for these men as they cry out to you that their inner being would be strengthened, and that they would become so full of you and who you are that what pours out is love and joy and peace and forbearance and goodness and self-control that they become strengthened. And in that strength, they find freedom. Father, we love you and we thank you. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:11

Do you have an incredible story of overcoming the home that you were raised in, or maybe the father wounds that were placed inside your life? If so, I want to share it with other dudes without dads. Simply go to dudeswithout dadspodcast.com and apply to be a guest on the show. The reason it's important to share your story is because when you share what God has done for you, it helps other men believe that God can do it for them, and he can. To share your story, head over to Dudeswithout Dads Podcast today.