1 - Bishop Thomas' Interview on the "Dobbs" Anniversary

Kat Talalas from the USCCB Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities interviews Bishop Daniel Thomas of Toledo, the chairman of the USCCB Committee on Pro-Life Activities. 

They discuss the anniversary of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the U.S. Supreme Court case that overturned Roe v. Wade. Bishop Thomas also shares what formed his pro-life views from childhood and how he found out that he had been appointed to be a bishop.

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Facebook and X, and visit us at www.respectlife.org. 

Intro/outro audio: “Mellow Happy Pop (Umbrella Clocks) No Synths” performed by Bopper Beats/stock.adobe.com. Used with permission. All rights reserved. Copyright © 2025, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C. All rights reserved.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kat Talalas: Hello, and welcome to The Respect Life Podcast. My name is Kat Talalas with the Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities, and I'm here with Bishop Daniel Thomas. Welcome, Bishop. 

[00:00:12] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Thank you Kat, so much, and great to be with all those folks who are tuning in and turning on to all of us. 

[00:00:19] Kat Talalas: Absolutely. I'm so grateful to have you on today to have a sort of more relaxed conversation around your chairmanship and all you're bringing to the pro-life committee at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and how you're helping your brother bishops to witness to the meaning of life and to the Gospel of life. I'd love to start our conversation to learn a little bit more about your journey. You know, how you got here to be a bishop, and then ultimately the chairman of the bishops' pro-life committee, and I guess that starts with how you became pro-life.

[00:00:52] So, would you be able to speak a little bit to how that happened for you? 

[00:00:57] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Thank you, Kat. I would say just very [00:01:00] naturally and realistically, becoming pro-life was a natural outgrowth of my mom and dad from their marriage, from their love, and from the Catholic home that they provided for my brother and myself and, in all sincerity, the reality of their practice of the faith, of their witness to the faith—that's what really began me on that journey. And of course, I had the gift of going to Catholic school in my home parish, Holy Family Parish in Manayunk, in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. 

[00:01:35] Kat Talalas: Yeah. 

[00:01:35] Bishop Daniel Thomas: And then going to high school and it, it's, you know, I was not at that time in a quote formal pro-life group as so many of our wonderful, high school- aged, young people are. We have Students for Life, even in my own diocese now. 

[00:01:52] Kat Talalas: Right. 

[00:01:52] Bishop Daniel Thomas: And they're very young students. I'm so proud of them. But I would say ultimately, the commitment to [00:02:00] life began with the marriage of my parents and the evidence of their gift of life for us.

[00:02:06] Kat Talalas: So, Your Excellency, it sounds like your parents were both pretty devout. Is that correct?

[00:02:11] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Yes, they were both very devout. And praying together, of course at meals and at home, being very faithful to Sunday Mass and to prayers and to devotions was just something very natural to us.

[00:02:23] And Kat, maybe I would say part of the pro-life, uh, what would you say? Not, not a bug, because that has a negative connotation, I would say part of the pro-life impetus for me came from a deep devotion to Our Lady. And so coming to know Mother Mary through my mother and father's devotion to Our Lady and having a statue of Our Lady on the bookcase, which was always honored with the candle—the candle was lit whenever there was a storm, for protection—and of course that gave us a real [00:03:00] sense of motherhood and of the gift of motherhood, first of all, obviously to us individually, spiritually, to the Church, and I think to every mother who is a mother. So, that kind of motherhood, I think, also instilled deep within me the appreciation for motherhood and for that mothering, which in the end is the comfort and the grace, and then knowing of course, that she gave birth to Our Lord Jesus as the Mother of God.

[00:03:32] Kat Talalas: That is so inspiring, Our Lady's maternal witness. 

[00:03:35] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Exactly. 

[00:03:35] Kat Talalas: It seems like that had a big impact on you, in addition to the example of your own mother and father, 

[00:03:42] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Right. 

[00:03:42] Kat Talalas: as part of the example of your mother and father, their honor for Mary and how that impacted you. Would you say that Our Lady also impacted your journey to becoming a priest?

[00:03:52] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Certainly, and I think, obviously by God's grace, I've always been invited into a warm and loving relationship with [00:04:00] my mother. So, I remember very vividly there was a seminarian who shared with me that he had a very, very difficult relationship with his own human mother. And I also knew that he did not have a relationship with Our Mother Mary.

[00:04:17] And so I really am convinced that the sad tension of the relationship with his own natural mother was really a block for him to have a relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary. And of course, you know, one of the things in canon law, you know, it's amazing what canon law tells us, but canon law says that candidates for the priesthood and priests should have a tender devotion and relationship with Mary.

[00:04:48] I mean, that's, that's the law of the Church. So, beyond the law of the Church, of course, is the, is the tradition of the Church for centuries and centuries. And Kat, I would tell you that one [00:05:00] of the real touching moments for me in watching the new Holy Father come out onto the balcony, Pope Leo, that some of his first words directed us to Our Mother Mary.

[00:05:14] So, toward the end of his remarks, he invited everyone to pray with him, obviously, one of the most Catholic prayers we have, which is the Hail Mary. And so I found that to be just extraordinarily gifted in grace. I don't know, another modern Holy Father who has asked us to do that. And of course, the other gift, because the day that he was elected, May 8th, even though it's not on the universal calendar, liturgically, it's the Feast of the Shrine of Our Lady of Pompeii. So, it's Our Lady of Pompeii who is—the, the shrine in Naples, Italy is dedicated to Our Lady Queen of the Most Holy Rosary. 

[00:05:59] Kat Talalas: Wow. [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Bishop Daniel Thomas: So, how striking that he connected that feast to his own election and then invited the whole Church to pray with him to Our Lady fundamentally for him and for the whole Church universal.

[00:06:14] So I found that very, very beautiful. And of course there's a wonderful connection, Kat, because our cathedral in the Diocese of Toledo is Our Lady Queen of the Most Holy Rosary. 

[00:06:25] Kat Talalas: Oh, wow. So, that has a very strong personal connection to you.

[00:06:28] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Absolutely. 

[00:06:29] Kat Talalas: What a beautiful example of the flowering of the priesthood of Pope Leo and how that initial commitment that even seminarians must have that tender devotion to Our Lady to become a priest has found its fullest expression in him becoming our Holy Father to all of us.

[00:06:45] Bishop Daniel Thomas: And I think it was very touching, you know, when you have the Holy Father invite you to pray to Our Lady, that's no small encouragement. 

[00:06:53] Kat Talalas: Right. That's absolutely true. And I'd like to share with the listeners here that your belief in the power of just a simple Hail [00:07:00] Mary, it definitely has impacted our committee.

[00:07:02] You had asked us when you became a chairman that if we could just pray one Hail Mary for the work of the pro-life committee every day and we have been, you know, doing that to the best of our ability. I'm sure there are days where each of us has forgotten—full disclosure, 

[00:07:16] Bishop Daniel Thomas: God be praised. 

[00:07:16] Kat Talalas: sometimes. But that has definitely been an example to us, to your devotion to Our Lady and how that is impacting the work of our pro-life secretariat right now.

[00:07:26] So, thank you for doing that for us. 

[00:07:28] Bishop Daniel Thomas: God be praised. And I hope, you know, I sometimes I forget, too, because I'm human, but, but every day it's one of my, one of the prayers at the very top of my prayer for the day where I offer that Hail Mary. And I, I really do. I entrust all of the staff and all of our work into her motherly care and, I don't think we can underestimate the real power that she brings to our work together. 

[00:07:55] Kat Talalas: Absolutely true. Absolutely true. She is the mother of us all, so.

[00:07:59] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Exactly. 

[00:07:59] Kat Talalas: [00:08:00] Yes. Yes. So, it sounds like you were interested, your devotion to Mary, your, the devoutness of your parents and that home life that you had—did that inspire you in your priesthood, uh, or did that inspire you, should I say, in your childhood to be attracted to the priesthood, or did that happen later on when you were in high school or college?

[00:08:21] About when did you decide that the priesthood was something you wanted to pursue? 

[00:08:25] Bishop Daniel Thomas: I often joke because high school students ask me, "What was your journey?" And I always say my vocational journey is very boring because I sensed the call to the priesthood very early on at the age of seven, actually.

[00:08:39] Kat Talalas: Wow, seven! 

[00:08:40] Bishop Daniel Thomas: At the time of my First Holy Communion. And I would say—and I tell people this all the time—oftentimes, when you're at the age of sixth grade, so as a sixth grader, you want to be any number of things in your life that you can imagine. So, I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to be an English [00:09:00] teacher. I wanted to be a veterinarian. I wanted to be a tennis player. I wanted to be a fireman. All my uncles were firemen, and I also wanted to be a priest.

[00:09:11] So, all those things were part of my own discernment at that age. But certainly by the time I got to high school, it became more and more clarified for me. And it was toward the end of my high school years then that I took on a spiritual director, a priest spiritual director, and then applied and was accepted to the seminary and entered the seminary just after I was a graduate of high school. 

[00:09:37] Kat Talalas: Just after you graduated high school, so you, that is, that's beautiful that God really showed you your vocation so early, even though as you said, it got clarified in high school.

[00:09:45] I'm not surprised by the English teacher comment because I know how, how well chosen your words are. I'm blessed to get to read some of your homilies and some of your writings and, and to, you know, collaborate with you on some things for the secretariat. [00:10:00] And it's very clear how seriously you take words and language, which has been a blessing for all of us working with you.

[00:10:05] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Well, I get criticized all the time by my staff here that you better be careful 'cause if you put it in front of the bishop, you know there's gonna be red all over it. But I'm grateful because for me, you know, editing and working in that way, in some ways, it's a positive outgrowth of the reality of what the Lord has asked me to do in my priesthood. Because when you work at the Holy See, at the Vatican for 15 years, and for somebody like Cardinal Justin Rigali, who is such a wordsmith, having worked in the Secretary of State for so many years, and having, you know, translated so many things that the Holy Father said into English, it's pretty hard not to have an attention to the English language. And I've always loved words and I certainly follow that adage, "Say what you mean, and mean what you say." 

[00:10:57] Kat Talalas: That sounds about right to me from my experience with you, for [00:11:00] sure. And again—no, but it, you know, you are the shepherd and, and the sheep know his voice. And so being attentive to that voice of Christ and being very careful in the way that we speak, when you are guiding, especially with your responsibility to guide souls, it, you know, it's crucial.

[00:11:14] Bishop Daniel Thomas: And it's so true, isn't it, Kat, that even our work regarding pro-life, it's so important that language is careful because we know, sadly that, in the secular world, language can often be twisted. And also we know, even from our own pro-life work, you know, to speak about abortion as healthcare is so misleading.

[00:11:35] So, the words themselves that, you know, society uses can be deeply misleading, and we have to help people to understand that, even in our work, we have to be careful to be very, very clear of what we're talking about—for example, not speaking about a fetus, but speaking about a baby. And those, those words are critically important when we're assisting [00:12:00] people to open their hearts, minds, and souls to the truth of the Gospel.

[00:12:04] Kat Talalas: It's so true. It is so true. There is so much deception, right? And we know that, you know, Satan is a father of lies and that so many women who do choose abortion ultimately feel that they were terribly lied to when they were making that choice—and often because of the words around, uh, the abortion—"Oh, it's a clump of cells"—or calling chemical abortion Plan C—all of these really terrible deceptions with language.

[00:12:31] And, ultimately, we're so grateful for the mercy that God shows us even when we misunderstand. But it's all the more important therefore, for people with pro-life convictions to be so clear in their language and to try to 

[00:12:43] Bishop Daniel Thomas: That's right. 

[00:12:43] Kat Talalas: correct those misconceptions.

[00:12:45] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Right, and, and clear about the mercy of Jesus.

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:49] Kat Talalas: Amen. Amen. 

[00:12:50] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Yeah. 

[00:12:50] Kat Talalas: Amen. I'd love to hear a little more, actually, about your time at the Holy See. I, I didn't know too much about that, and I'm imagining that that impacted your journey to becoming a bishop. [00:13:00] So I, I'd love for you to, to share that, with us. 

[00:13:02] Bishop Daniel Thomas: So, people joke that I worked in the Congregation for Bishops, and when I was named a bishop, they said, "Bishop, did you work on your own case?" And I responded, "That's not how it works." But I had the great, great, gift and privilege of working, for the Holy Father all 15 years I was there. It was Pope St. John Paul II, and I worked in that congregation for 15 years. I served under three prefects, three secretaries and three undersecretaries, and I had the extraordinary gift, I would say, of complementing what someone called "the not immediately pastoral" work because it was work to assist the Holy Father in choosing bishops, in caring for bishops through the Church Universal, but then also the immediacy of pastoral work by the blessing of serving as an adjunct spiritual director at the Pontifical North American College Seminary there in [00:14:00] Rome. And so being—having that one-on-one opportunity in a pastoral way in assisting men in spiritual direction was just the greatest gift. So, it was a marvelous complement of the "not immediately pastoral" and the immediately pastoral. 

[00:14:16] Kat Talalas: That is so beautiful that you've already had that opportunity even before becoming a bishop to shepherd the souls of priests and your care, in a sense. And what marvelous preparation for leadership later on.

[00:14:27] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Absolutely. And I must confess because as a bishop, you know, you're not permitted to be the spiritual director of your seminarians or priests. And frankly, my, uh, schedule is such that I really don't have time to serve in a role as a spiritual director. And I can say, honestly, I miss that. 

[00:14:45] Kat Talalas: To have that personal connection and guiding someone with where God is speaking to them.

[00:14:49] Bishop Daniel Thomas: That's right. 

[00:14:49] Kat Talalas: What an incredible ministry that really is. 

[00:14:51] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Yeah. 

[00:14:52] Kat Talalas: But I imagine as a bishop that's given you all the more insight into the qualities of a good spiritual director and how to refer for them and maybe, I [00:15:00] don't know if you really appoint them, but to help make those connections? 

[00:15:04] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Absolutely. And I do think, Kat, that—my mom and dad always used to say, "Whatever the Lord has you doing now, he's preparing you for the next thing that he's going to ask of you."

[00:15:16] Wow. And so I couldn't have imagined, you know, becoming a bishop and, of course, working with seminarians and working in the administration of the Church Universal. When asked to be a bishop, I was then given the task, as an auxiliary bishop first, of overseeing vocations to the priesthood, the seminary, the clergy office, deacons, and priests.

[00:15:40] So, it literally was a God's, uh, what would I, God's plan, not my plan, but making my parents' statement very much was fulfilled that what he was asking me at that time was truly preparing me for the next thing that he would ask of [00:16:00] me. 

[00:16:00] Kat Talalas: It certainly sounds that that concept has been so illustrated dramatically, as you've said, by that kind of succession of steps. 

[00:16:07] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Right. 

[00:16:08] Kat Talalas: And I'd like to kind of talk more about that and how you ended up really where you are today. Were you surprised when you were appointed as a bishop? 

[00:16:17] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Yes, I was, very surprised. And it was—Cardinal Justin Rigali was the Archbishop of Philadelphia at the time. And, as I always tell the story, I was at my desk at my parish—I was a pastor. Having come home—this would've been about nine months after I had come home from Rome, and I was named a pastor of an Italian national parish. So, I had the gift of speaking Italian still to many of the parishioners.

[00:16:45] And there was a telephone call. My secretary came in, and she said, "The cardinal is on the line." And I thought, "My goodness, what's this at, you know, 4:30 in the afternoon?" And the cardinal said to me, "Are you able to come to my office?" And I said, "Oh, I'm so sorry, Your Eminence." [00:17:00] I said, "I have a finance council, parish finance council meeting this evening, so I really won't be able to do that."

[00:17:07] And he said, "Oh," he said, "Well," he said, "I'm having a number of people for dinner beforehand. Could you come for dinner?" I said, "Well, I'm awfully sorry, Your Eminence. By the time I get back and forth, there won't be time to get to the meeting." And then he said, "Can you come now?"

[00:17:23] So, I had a feeling—I thought I was in trouble, and I had no idea what the problem was. And I said, "Well, I, I can, I can certainly come now. And, I remember vividly it was a Monday. So, it was a Joyful Mystery day. So, I prayed the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary in the car on the way to his office, and after he told me I was appointed a bishop, on the way home, I prayed the Sorrowful Mysteries.

[00:17:52] Kat Talalas: Tell us how you really feel, Bishop. 

[00:17:54] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Exactly. 

[00:17:57] But before I could even sit down, almost, he told me [00:18:00] that Pope Benedict had named me a bishop. And "Do I accept?" And I looked at him, and I said, "May I decline?" And there was a pregnant pause, and the archbishop looked at me, and he said, "Do you think that's the response Jesus wants to hear?"

[00:18:18] And I thought to myself, "You've done this before." So, I simply told him, I said, "Well, Your Eminence, if this is the will of God, as expressed by the Holy Spirit through the person of the Holy Father, and even knowing my own human weaknesses, sins, and failures, if this is his will, then I accept." And then he said to me, "Well, what is your motto?"

[00:18:44] And I said, "Your Eminence, you just told me I was a bishop. I have no idea what my motto is." So, he had all these very prepared questions, which I was not prepared for. 

[00:18:56] Kat Talalas: It's true. You didn't have, seem to have any inclination, and yet Our Lady [00:19:00] prepares you, right? You prayed the Mystery of the Annunciation and her "Yes" and her "Fiat" right beforehand.

[00:19:05] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Precisely. So, that further tells you how she's been involved. 

[00:19:08] Kat Talalas: Oh, that is really beautiful. So, we're doing this episode in time for the Dobbs anniversary. Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health was decided June 24th, and we are coming up on that anniversary when this episode will be published.

[00:19:25] And so I'd like to talk a bit about your impression of the Dobbs decision and how that has affected your diocese, your ministry as a bishop. I know Ohio has had its own history in the aftermath of Dobbs. Can you speak to that? 

[00:19:41] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Sure. I guess like with everyone, Kat, my profound shock that by God's grace, the decision was overturned, my profound gratitude and act of thanksgiving, that what we have been praying for, what, for 50 years, [00:20:00] really, that that had come to fruition and fulfillment, and my profound disappointment to realize that, while that decision was made on a federal level, that it would, of course, be left to a state level for states, really, to decide what they would do in this regard. And so, on the one hand, you know, tremendous joy and excitement, on the other hand, sadness and dismay because, very quickly, as we know, all of that was turned to states, and states began putting these questions on their ballots.

[00:20:37] And sadly, you know, here in my own state where I am bishop of in Ohio, it was such a challenge because very, very quickly we got the word that it was going to become something that they would try to get onto the ballot. And I can tell you, Kat, with all of my brother bishops, we were very, very much [00:21:00] united in our efforts. I can tell you there were countless, countless tireless workers in the vineyard who are our good lay people, really beating the streets and making every effort as volunteers to literally change hearts and see if that vote might be over, you know, denied, so to speak. And the difficulty was that it was a radical proposition, radical to the point of, abortion even up to birth. And so the pain for us was that as much as we did and as much energy that we poured into it, we simply did not have—and sadly, so many people said it comes down to funding. And I know several of our own people in the diocese said, "We never expected that it would go that way. How is this possible?" And I'm convinced that so many outside influencers came in, [00:22:00] some would say, you know, from the far West and from the far East to influence the decision of midwesterners with a good bit of misinformation. And so we did our best in videos and otherwise, and, you know, parish outreach, talks in churches on Sunday, and social media, but it just simply was not enough.

[00:22:22] I was able to be on a group with brother bishops who then also confronted the same reality in Florida. And by God's grace, they were successful in confronting the same kind of efforts to have abortion legalized in Florida. And, you know, one of my brother bishops did say, "In the end, we all know that the effort, in reality, for us as Catholics is that we have to change hearts, minds, and souls no matter because ours is not an effort that is political, and ours, in the [00:23:00] end, is not an effort that is financial because we know we don't have resources to match what other people are going to do. But the resource we do have is prayer, the resource we do have is truth, and the resource we do have is grace." And so I think that's the way that we're going to change hearts, minds, and souls. And we simply have to be hopeful. And what better moment, in this moment of recognizing that anniversary, Kat?

[00:23:27] We're in the Jubilee Year of Hope, right? And it's a jubilee of pilgrims of hope. And, you know, I refuse not to be hopeful. So, I think we hold onto our hope. You know, the words of that, of the bull of indiction when the Holy Father gave us the Jubilee Year of Hope, it started with St. Paul's words to the Romans: "Hope does not disappoint." So, we will not give up our hope, and we will continue to do everything we can in that regard. 

[00:23:59] Kat Talalas: So well [00:24:00] said. It's really beautiful how you had this terribly disappointing experience—as you said, you and your brother bishops brought all this time and attention and resources to trying to stop this evil from happening in your diocese and in your state, and ultimately, it seemed like the forces of evil won this round. But you then had this opportunity, really, shortly thereafter to become chairman of the pro-life committee in this Jubilee Year of Hope. 

[00:24:28] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Right. 

[00:24:28] Kat Talalas: So, can you speak a little bit to how that, elaborate more on how the Jubilee of Hope applies to your chairmanship and what you hope to accomplish with your chairmanship of the pro-life committee?

[00:24:39] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Surely. One of the things that I was surprised by, Kat, right after taking the chairmanship was that it seems, even in the few statements that I've had the blessing to put out, thanks to the help of our staff in this time, there was all of a sudden a really great emphasis on, well, it seems that you're talking about, [00:25:00] mercy, it seems you're talking about welcoming, you know, those who have been involved in an abortion, you know, mothers, fathers. It seems that you're saying that, you know, the door of mercy is open for everyone and that hope can, you know, does not disappoint. And it strikes me, Kat, that part of our efforts, I think, have been and will continue to be that we really do need to communicate.

[00:25:25] Because I don't think, you know, the ears of the world or even our Catholic faith will have heard it. They've only heard, you know, the "no" of, you know, "No, we do not agree with that." They've not heard the "yes" of openness to life and the "yes" of caring for those in need, the "yes," for example of, you know, programs like Walking with Moms in Need and I think, you know, helping not only our own Catholics, but helping the society at large to appreciate the Church, of course, from the beginning [00:26:00] has, you know, has announced the Gospel of life from the very fact that Jesus came into the womb of Mary. But, for some reason, I think society and so many in the Church have seen this as sort of, quote, "anti-woman" when in fact it's the exact opposite.

[00:26:19] And in programs such as Walking with Moms in Need, we're trying to show our care for women no matter the difficulty, no matter the struggle, no matter how they may have become pregnant, no matter what's facing them in their poverty or their need. And so trying to get the message out that, also since the beginning, the Church has done that for women. And in particular, I mean, one thinks of healthcare, you know, and how the Church has been at the forefront of healthcare in that regard. So, I think it's shifting the message. I don't think that happens—my dear dad used to say that you don't turn an ocean liner on a dime.

[00:26:59] But I [00:27:00] think the gift—and it's also the five year anniversary of Walking with Moms in Need. 

[00:27:04] Kat Talalas: Yes. 

[00:27:05] Bishop Daniel Thomas: So, I think it's these types of initiatives—and I can share with you my great enthusiasm for that initiative and the fact that it's caught on, it's certainly caught on in my own diocese, so many dioceses throughout the country, and it's now, you know, a lay effort being led in parishes so that parishes become, you know, that place of mercy that anyone can reach out to for care and accompaniment and assistance. So, I think those are the types of things that we need to announce and help people know that this is what we do and who we are, and not just some, you know, very, very narrow interpretation of who we are from a whole different side of the topic.

[00:27:52] Kat Talalas: That is very well articulated, Your Excellency. I think Walking with Moms in Need, as you've indicated, really expresses the fullness of the Church's "yes" to women, [00:28:00] our "yes" to their maternity. 

[00:28:01] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Yes. 

[00:28:01] Kat Talalas: For those listening who might not know too much about it, Walking with Moms in Need is an initiative of the bishops to ensure that every woman who is pregnant or parenting and struggling can turn to her local Catholic parish and find assistance and welcome and friendship. You can find out more at walkingwithmoms.com. We encourage all listening to get involved, maybe get started at your parish. It's awesome to hear, Bishop, that this has taken off in your diocese and you've put so much behind it. We're so grateful for your example in that area. 

[00:28:32] Bishop Daniel Thomas: And I would say too, Kat, you know, based on this year, the Jubilee of Hope, if we really take seriously being Pilgrims of Hope, then it's up to us to announce that Gospel of life, announce that truth, but in a way that it is attractive, that it is charitable, that it's inviting.

[00:28:53] And I can't tell you how many people I've learned have simply been able to have a conversion of heart [00:29:00] and maybe even, you know, from our wonderful people who, you know, beat the pavement, witnessing outside of abortion clinics, for example, that their kind of witness and their charitable and gentle care, which of course we know the media obviously misrepresents, but that that kind of care and outreach and concern that a mother could have a second thought.

[00:29:25] And that a mother then could realize that she's being called to carry her baby to term and to allow that baby into the world. What a gift. And ultimately, that's giving hope to a young mother. And we have to be able to communicate that kind of hope to her that there is hope for her. There's hope—you know, how often do we hear, "Oh, I don't wanna bring the child into the world because of the way the world is." But there's hope. And if we can communicate that hope, then I think that in itself is a gift drawing people, not to us, but to the [00:30:00] Lord. 

[00:30:00] Kat Talalas: Right. It's a giver of hope. Right. 

[00:30:02] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Exactly. 

[00:30:04] Kat Talalas: And the source of mercy. One thing that you had mentioned earlier, just very similar to what you're talking about now with hope, you talked about mercy and wanting to communicate Christ's Mercy.

[00:30:12] One example where you did that so well was in the Lenten statement that focused on Project Rachel, and you've done a, I think, another statement as well that focused on hope connected to Project Rachel. And for those of you who aren't aware, Project Rachel Ministry is a diocesan ministry for women and men who are suffering after participation in abortion.

[00:30:32] I know this is something that is of great interest to you, Bishop Thomas. And as you said, many people are unaware of the Church's concern for women, both before they make an abortion decision with, you know, things like Walking with Moms in Need, our desire to support her in carrying a baby to term. But, also, many people don't necessarily know that the Church is there for women after they have made an abortion decision. Can you speak a bit to Project Rachel and communicating mercy and hope to [00:31:00] women and men who've participated in abortion? 

[00:31:02] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Sure, and I think the key here is mercy, right? Because the mercy of Jesus knows no limits. The mercy of Jesus knows no bounds, and the mercy of Jesus does not look upon this sin or that sin as being unforgivable.

[00:31:18] And I think we know personally from our outreach and from our work with folks who have been involved in an abortion, so, so often their hearts are so heavy because the shame that they have felt cripples them and also sometimes just simply will not permit them to accept that the Lord Jesus can forgive anything because his love knows no measure.

[00:31:48] And so if we can communicate that kind of mercy to them—that whether they participated in, had the abortion themselves, were somehow, you know, negligent maybe in not [00:32:00] speaking about it—all of that can be forgiven. And Jesus invites that person to be healed and know the healing that comes from his heart, which is a heart of mercy, of tenderness and of goodness. And it's that heart—we want people to be able to see that heart in the Church, of course, because the Church is the Bride of Jesus, and therefore extends that loving heart to all of those who are in need. 

[00:32:31] Kat Talalas: Amen. And that is such an important message right now. I know that often around major anniversaries, like the anniversary of Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health, the overturning of Roe, there's often so many stories in the media. And women who have participated in abortion who are experiencing the hurt and pain, possibly regret, are probably getting a lot of messages that are, you know, some are saying, " Oh, it was good that you made this decision," and others are [00:33:00] saying that they're—or speaking in a way that makes them feel condemned, perhaps. And so it is so important to get that message of mercy out there around these major milestones that have been victories for pro-lifers, but also might cause, pain or hurt for those who have participated in abortion, who are watching these media messages that are often so distorted and to know that they can come home to the Church and that Christ's mercy and love is waiting for them no matter where they are and that he invites them to repentance, yes, but also to his love and complete reconciliation and a life full of hope and freedom and how important that is.

[00:33:40] Bishop Daniel Thomas: I do think, Kat, just to mention, I think the weight which persons carry —whether it be mothers or a father—that weight often feels like a profound burden. And, you know, I often relate that weight—you know, it's, we always go back to the Gospel and to the words of Jesus—and if [00:34:00] you think of that weight, when Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, and so many people were condemning her, and they were picking up the rocks, ready to stone her to death for her sin. And, you know, the profound witness of Jesus, where he, of course, says, "The one without sin casts the first stone." And they just peeled away, and there she is. She's the only one with him. One cannot imagine the tenderness of that encounter with this woman who was about to be stoned to death. And this rabbi who looks at her with great love and says, "Well, who has condemned you?" And she says, "No one." And he says, "Neither do I condemn you."

[00:34:43] That's the kind of message we want to extend to anyone who feels condemned or who has condemned themselves because of the sin and that they might know, neither do I, nor the Church, nor Jesus—we do not condemn you, [00:35:00] so come experience the healing power of his mercy.

[00:35:06] Kat Talalas: That is so powerful. And it's especially powerful to hear from a bishop and from a shepherd who often, again, I think people might see as standing above as opposed to as, you know, Pope Francis said, smelling like the sheep. 

[00:35:19] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Right, right. 

[00:35:19] Kat Talalas: And I'd like to ask you a question about Pope St. John Paul II, who you apparently worked under in some capacity, for in some capacity for about 15 years.

[00:35:29] And we know that his encyclical, Evangelium vitae, or the Gospel of Life, is what inspired Walking with Moms in Need, ultimately. It was for that anniversary, that 20 year anniversary, now 25 year anniversary that inspired 

[00:35:41] Bishop Daniel Thomas: That's right. 

[00:35:42] Kat Talalas: Walking with Moms. And I'd like to conclude this, this podcast by asking you what the Gospel of life means for you. I mean, you worked for Pope St. John Paul II, himself, the great saint. What does the Gospel of life mean to you, Bishop? 

[00:35:55] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Thank you. I would say the Gospel of life means [00:36:00] Jesus, in all his truth, in all his mercy, in all his light, who leads us to himself so that we might be transformed. And I think, in essence, you know, the reality is that that document, which now is in its anniversary of 25 years, that document to me is, it's integral to the magisterium, which Pope John—of course, John Paul, there's so much that he wrote—but I think it's integral to his magisterium based on where we are now and the questions we have now in the world about human life.

[00:36:40] So, we know that, you know, great counsels responded to heresies and you know the question of, " Who is Jesus?" That was really the first councils for who he was. And then, of course, the Vatican Council, many would say it was, "What is the Church?" You know? And now ultimately the question is, "What is being? [00:37:00] What is human? What does being a human mean?"

[00:37:03] And remember, another glorious line of Pope St. John Paul was that "Jesus reveals man to himself" and the reality of human life and that Gospel of life—which of course, it gives the entire parameter from, obviously, as we often say in our prayer, from conception until natural death—and the importance of human life because we're made in the image and likeness of God, and God was made one like us in human form. So, that Gospel of life—and you know, of course everybody knows that the word "gospel" means "good news"—and so we have to be proclaiming the good news of life—life as Jesus intends and as he desires and he's desperate to give. 

[00:37:57] Kat Talalas: Well, thank you so much for that exhortation to share that [00:38:00] good news and the goodness of that news of life.

[00:38:03] We all, all of us listening, I think can, can better reflect that and receive it, as you said, to reflect that. And I'd love it if you could close us in prayer, Your Excellency. Thank you so much for this. 

[00:38:13] Bishop Daniel Thomas: Sure. I hate to end this podcast for people. I'm so excited about doing it with them. Thank you. So, let's offer a prayer.

[00:38:21] Let us pray. Heavenly Father Lord of life, strengthen us in grace so that we might carry out the work of your Son, Jesus, who is our life. Give us the blessing of remaining in hope because he is hope and life incarnate. Strengthen all of our work and care for our brothers and sisters. May it always be instilled with the truth of the Gospel and with the charity that we are always [00:39:00] called to, and give us light for our path so that we might walk in your ways and draw others into that light.

[00:39:11] We make our prayer through Christ our Lord. Amen. Good. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.