Make Schools Christian Again
A podcast to the American church for the exiles in public education.
Make Schools Christian Again
#7: Eden's Classroom: Can We Get There From Here? with Clint Edmonds and Taylor Markham
We explore the controversial idea of restoring public schools to their explicitly Christian origins and the spiritual battles happening in education today.
• Public schools were originally created to teach the Bible through the 1647 "Old Deluder Satan Act" in Massachusetts
• Many Christians are unaware of this history and have accepted the secularization of education as normal
• The distinction between "fans" of Jesus (who acknowledge Him) versus "followers" (who make Him Lord of everything)
• Ministry to students must include ministry to families, as the home should be the primary place of spiritual formation
• Three Christian perspectives exist: accepting secular education, believing reform is impossible, or working for restoration
• Education problems are fundamentally spiritual problems requiring spiritual solutions
• Individual teachers can represent Christ in classrooms by modeling what Jesus would look like teaching their subject
• The biblical pattern shows God conquering territory from individual to global levels
Want to learn more about the Christian history of education in America? Visit our website for recommended resources on the Old Deluder Satan Act and early American educational practices.
Without you, I'm nothing but an empty cloud of smoke.
Speaker 1:On a hill reaching up without you.
Speaker 2:Okay. Did you hear that? Yes, sir, I did. Okay, great. So how long have you been in public schools and what did you hear? That, yes, sir, I did. Okay, great. So how long have you been in public schools and what did you teach?
Speaker 3:I've been in public schools. This is, I think, my eighth year. I just finished my eighth year. I have taught pretty much every high school science you can imagine physics, biology for like a week, IPC, chemistry. I've also taught robotics and some other random stuff. So quite a few different things, but for eight years I've been in public education.
Speaker 2:Okay, uh, what made you want to go into teaching in the first place?
Speaker 3:Uh, summer's off, Just kidding. I uh, when I was growing up, I just I love the idea of being able to spend so much time around students. I've always loved, you know, being able to, to influence and motivate students. I've always loved being able to influence and motivate students in a way that they need it. I'm also a youth minister as well, so every opportunity I get to be around young people who are still moldable and looking for direction, I love the opportunities to take and to guide them on that. So that's really what brought me to education as a whole. Yeah, awesome. So that's really what brought me to education as a whole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome. And Taylor, I guess you've been a youth minister for a couple years, is that right?
Speaker 1:Youth ministry assistant. I came on to Redwater two years ago with the pastor that's now pastor of Redwater First Baptist Church, and then Clint came on a year after that.
Speaker 2:So I've been under Clint's supervision the last year, but I have been in public school for the last 13 years, so I do have a little bit of familiarity. Okay, what made you want to go into the ministry?
Speaker 1:It's always been a part of my life. In 2011, our family started a ministry called Truth and Fusion Ministries evangelistic style where we travel around to different churches and we have a worship band, we have teachers, we have jail ministry, we had radio ministry for a while and ever since I've been born, my dad's always been on staff at a church, so it's always been something that I've been around and so I was presented. And then about I'm trying to remember what around 2011, when we started Students in Vision Ministries, we came out to First Baptist Redwater and through me growing up here, you know I was about to graduate and Corey Calicott, which is the pastor here at Redwater First Baptist Church now. He offered me a position and I thought about it for a while, but the Lord made it very clear in my life that that's where I was supposed to go. So the last two years this has been my avenue of ministry, but definitely not the only one. Okay, great great.
Speaker 2:So everybody's kind of been a student somewhere. Most people have been public school students and so they're pretty familiar with what it's like to be in the schools from that perspective. But, clint, what was your first? Did you have any expectations of being a teacher, since it is a very different world? Did you have any expectations the first year you taught of teaching, of what you're going to accomplish or what things are going to be like?
Speaker 3:You mean in the form of ministry and as my call as a Christian, or just in general.
Speaker 2:Well, just as a public school teacher like you know how you know you've got kids sitting in desks, that they're in their own world, and then the teachers are kind of in their own different world. And as a public school teacher, did you expect that you were going to, you know, save the world by teaching these kids about science or whatever? Or did you think it was going to be just like it was when you were a student?
Speaker 3:I imagine myself. You know, I think we all go in with that image of us, you know, going and making like a big difference in student lives becoming, you know, someone the students look up to and being someone that can influence them in so many different ways. In some parts it was like that, but it's definitely different than that doughy-eyed, you know first-year teacher going in. Y'all went in expecting you know things to be a little bit different. I honestly went in expecting a little bit more respect than I was given in school First off and expecting a little bit more respect than I was given in school first off, and I learned right off the bat that that is not something that is immediately given and and after eight years.
Speaker 3:I realized that that maybe it was a little naive of me to expect that, but you know it's. It's kind of changed over the years, yeah. But I think that I went in a little doughy-eyed, a little bit more expectant of of big change being inflicted on students' lives and big influence. But I realize now it's less big change and more small influences and changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. So what did you say? You've taught for eight years, is that right? That's correct Eight years. How have things changed in that time that you've taught in public education?
Speaker 3:You mean as my teaching philosophy or as a district?
Speaker 2:I mean I guess just kind of broadly culturally speaking. I mean, do you see any particular trends?
Speaker 3:However you want to interpret that, I guess Sure, I think that in eight years we've definitely seen some trends back and forth in different directions. I think that you know, in general, our students are continuing to grow, continuing to move in different directions. I think that as a whole, our society is going to a place. You know, respect used to be something that was inherent. Like you gave somebody respect, you know, when you met them and then when they did something that you know, took that respect away, then you took your respect back.
Speaker 3:But now we've gotten to a place, you know we're getting to a place more where respect students feel like it needs to be earned. So students don't come in with as much initial respect, initial response, is something that you have to earn with them. That's why a lot of times teachers who you know are young and cool and hip like me especially, you know we get sometimes a better response and respect from students than teachers who have been here for longer, who have tenure, who are honestly probably better teachers but are just not, as you know, accepted by student bodies. So there's less respect because of that. So that's kind of a trend. I've seen going one different direction over the last eight years and I don't see that. I don't see that changing big anytime soon.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, taylor, I know you've been in the ministry two years, but I mean with regard to all the time you've been in the public schools before that, have you noticed any? Just kind of going back maybe five, ten years? Have you noticed any changes in our broader culture as far as maybe the public schools are concerned?
Speaker 1:I think if we're thinking about that, especially in regards to Christianity and Clint, you might be able to jump in on this because I'm sure you've seen this too.
Speaker 1:But the amount of you know Christianity has turned more from what it's supposed to be, from a personal relationship, to a lot of sensationalism within the kids and it's almost like not that it's supposed to be the priority thing, this relationship with Jesus, but it's more like the cool thing for some kids, the few that will actually devote and give somewhat of their life to the Lord while they're in school. And you know that's been a big one for me. I mean, I've seen it the last you know. However, so long I've been in high school, I mean it's gone from you know, it's almost like the personal relationships they have with Jesus is relegated to what's on their social media account. And you know, and as our society grows into more of a sensationalist society, especially when you're looking at Christianity, it's no different from what's happening in the school system. I've definitely seen a shift there and does make ministry and does make, you know, solid doctrine that the Bible teaches a little bit harder to bring across. I don't know if you have anything to add to that, clint.
Speaker 3:No it's actually a great point. You know, as teachers I'm sure you've seen this, nick, because you're also a teacher as well but you know, years and years and years ago, teachers used to just, you know, they would get out a textbook and they would read from the book and they would teach you directly. Students would take notes and they'd take tests. But now, over the last the years, we have been encouraged by teachers to differentiate instruction, to make instruction more enticing, more fun, more interactive, uh, so the students, you know, are more, uh, encouraged to learn it, which you know, I will agree that that is, you know, in some parts can be a good thing, but it also can, can flow into our, our ministries as well.
Speaker 3:So students, like you said, you know, we, we're almost expected as a student ministry and you know, bridging that gap, not just from schools to ministry, but we were almost expected to entertain students so that they will learn and that kind of crosses the bridge into church ministry as well. Like you know, on Wednesdays, we, you know, we play a lot of games, we have a lot of fun, which is not a bad thing. But it is probably also true that if we didn't do some of those more fun things. More of those exciting things, those games that we we didn't do. Some of those more fun things, more of those exciting things, those games that we probably wouldn't have as many students, as much interest and it definitely changes the.
Speaker 1:It does not change the message of the ministry. Definitely change how you have to do it, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, right, yeah, yeah, interesting. So I kind of grew up in 80, 80s, 90s and early 2000s and there was a real I don't know what you'd call it, but there were a lot of people culturally like the new atheists, that were really trying to take down a lot of cultural Christianity, people like Christopher Hitchens, richard Dawkins, these sorts of people, people like Christopher Hitchens, richard Dawkins, these sorts of people, and that's kind of the culture against the culture that I grew up around. I guess that there does seem to be, like what you guys are saying, a trend toward back to at least church culture or God whatever God might mean to certain people culture, and away from that whole atheist or secular culture. It does seem to be that there is more of a trend, currently at least, growing. I don't know how significant it would be, you know, nationwide, but there does seem to be a growing return back to that. Would you guys agree with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say slowly, maybe slowly, especially down here in the Bible Belt. We're kind of, maybe slowly, especially down here in the Bible Belt. We're kind of, you know, I think that trend is more easily seen back down here. But I would say, maybe in morals of students, in expectation of students, there is a little bit more of a growth. They're not in the form of, you know, a reformation or an evangelistic movement, but a slow trend back to at least good morals. Slow, a slow trend back to at least good morals, if not back to a relationship with Christ, at least to an understanding of the good teachings that he had, whether from a secular or from a Christian perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are the pitfalls of that? Because you've got people who seem to be hungry. They're at least. They at least know this thing over here is bad. And I want to go to this thing over here which has the appearance, or even the trendy appearance, of being good. What are the pitfalls of that? Cause it may seem like you'd end up being, you know, just superficially, like you're saying Taylor, putting something on your Facebook page or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I I like what Clint said just a little bit ago. You know how youth are so moldable and I think whenever I think youth, they're getting to a place where they realize that I mean, like you're saying, I think there is a shift towards this, that they're getting to the place where they realize that you know, there's something about this Jesus, there's something about this, this Christianity thing. But whenever they decide to devote their life into it but they're discipled in the wrong way and they're molded in the wrong way, that's very dangerous, you know, and for the most part we look at the church as a whole in America and the church in America is sick. It is. You know they lean more towards not obviously, not not all, but a big, big majority of some of the biggest churches in America lean towards that sensationalist.
Speaker 1:You know what feels good is what you should follow in Christianity and the only issue is being Jesus in a Christian school doesn't feel a lot of times, doesn't feel that great. You know it's a battle every single day to live for Jesus. It's definitely rewarding, but I call it fair weather Christians Christians that you know, only are on fire for Jesus and only living for Jesus when it's the right atmosphere and it's the right, the right temperature Right and the sun shining, just right. But when things don't feel good, they don't live the same way, and I think a lot of the reason that happens is because our youth are being can be discipled in a very wrong way. That paints a very poor picture of what a relationship with Jesus actually is. In a very wrong way. That paints a very poor picture of what our relationship with Jesus actually is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So I want to get back to that in just a second. But, clint, do you think teachers, public school teachers overall would say that the overall situation again just broadly speaking, american public schools is that overall situation getting better or worse?
Speaker 3:That's a good question. I would say that the teachers in general would probably say that that situation is getting worse, but I don't think that it comes from a sincere Christian perspective. I think that that perspective can be a little bit biased, based on the teachers themselves. So when you're asking, you know, do teachers see an upward trend in students and public school in general turning back to Jesus? I think it assumes that a lot of our teachers, or most of our teachers, have a strong and growing relationship with Jesus. And I think that you know, I think that as a whole, most teachers, especially teachers, especially here, like I said, I'm a little biased of.
Speaker 3:I'm teaching down here at Redwater in the Bible Belt. I've never taught in one district, but in general I feel like most of our teachers have a, you know, a relationship with Jesus. But I also think there is a difference between a relationship and a thriving and growing one. So I think sometimes it can be a little bit biased. Sometimes teachers don't look at the school system around them through the lens of Jesus. They look at it through their public school, their secular eyes because, like you said in the beginning of this, our schools themselves are secular. There is no innate Jesus in our classrooms, and so sometimes, when we go to school, we turn off that lens that lets us look through it through Christian eyes. And so our teachers, I think, would disagree on the trend there, and again, that's my perspective. I would say that they would not see that trend going up because of the separation that we sometimes, as teachers, put in our own, our own minds between school and between our relationship with jesus.
Speaker 1:I think what you're saying, clint I think you might agree with this sentiment. We got a lot of fans of jesus in the school system, just not a whole lot of followers amen a lot of fans, not followers.
Speaker 3:Hey, can you uh differentiate between that, between a fan and a follower?
Speaker 1:I mean fan and a follower. I think a follower somebody that's 100 dedicated. Uh, they live their life not perfectly. I mean we don't live perfectly after we're saved? Definitely not, I definitely haven't.
Speaker 2:You probably have Clint, Just a little bit, I haven't.
Speaker 1:But, people that live in such a way where Jesus is number one in their life. Every decision is motivated by what does Jesus want? It's the concept of lordship. Followers are people that all rights, everything, is given to the Lord. It's his life. Now, because he laid down his life for us, we give our lives back to him. That's what a follower looks like.
Speaker 1:But fans are people that you know they'll agree with. They'll go to the church. They'll go to church, you know. You know, if you prompt them and say something about Jesus, they might say something about him too. But you know, when it comes down to making life decisions and when you look at them, you know in this, particularly in the school system, you know you couldn't tell whether they were really saved or not. You know, I think we have a whole lot of fans of Jesus in America, just not as many followers. And if we could, if we could increase the number of followers, I think we see a very changed America. But there's a lot of people that will agree. You know Jesus is real. I believe that you know church might be beneficial. You know prayer is a good thing, but you know, when it comes down to living the righteous life, they fall short, that's true.
Speaker 3:I think, like you know, in summation of that you know our schools I do see a slight uptick in at least the morals and the teachings of Jesus, maybe not necessarily in conversions or in new Christians and everything like that. But I think as a whole our teachers may not see that because, you know, they're not always the strongest Christians that you have. You know, in the church they're not ministers, they're teachers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is a very important distinction between fan and follower. I think, yeah, that needs to be out there more. So, taylor, you kind of have a unique perspective coming from the public school system and then pretty quickly into ministry in the church.
Speaker 2:Culturally, in America, one of the things that I think that the church doesn't particularly have as a top priority it may not even be a priority at all is the public schools, and I think, with regard to the way, the state of the public schools, a lot of the kind of feeling that I get with where churches are, on what public schools are at, where they're at, there seems to be a sense of like, well, the public schools have just been conquered and we either lost that battle a long time ago, or we didn't even fight it and we just woke up and they were just gone long time ago, or we didn't even fight it and we just woke up and they were just gone.
Speaker 2:And when people talk, you know, from the pulpit or on a Bible class or whatever you know, they talk about it like man, the public schools are just rough. You know, the schools are rough. Out there. You can tell people you're a teacher and they're like oh man, I'm, you know, I'm glad you're in, sorry about that. Yeah, and you know, there's just a defeatist kind of fatalistic attitude toward them. And it's always shocked me, because the church is the one organization, it's the one established authority by God that could fix that. And so my so, from your kind of unique perspective, having been just recently in the public schools as a student, what do you think the church, kind of in that context, needs to know about the state of public schools?
Speaker 1:Well, man, that's a very layered question. I think that the church needs to do number one. I think if a kid is going to, a kid's life that they live is directly impacted by their home life. I think number one. And so I think the churches do. I mean the churches don't do the best job of ministering to students in the form of also ministering to the families because a kid is not going to be living. You know, obviously there are some exceptions, but for the most part, if they're not being modeled at home a faith life, you know it's not going to be shown usually in theirs either. If parents aren't having enough faith and aren't living a Christian life, then it's not going to be shown in theirs most likely either, because they're a big influence, right? So I think if the churches were to hear anything about the school system itself, you know we can get down to. You know a lot of of the and clinton jump in here if you, if you think of something. But, um, if we want to get down to the root problem, I mean I think it starts. It starts on the individual level, but I think a big one is it starts in the home.
Speaker 1:Uh, and I think if churches really wanted to do a better job of reaching the church, getting jesus back into the schools I think that's a really big ministry avenue is that the homes need to be ministered to.
Speaker 1:You know, I think a lot of youth ministers think that you know, the only ministry opportunity that they have are the kids that show up on their Wednesday nights. But that's not the truth. You know, ministry should be in thirds, as Corey likes to teach us. It should be your youth ministry leaders, your youth students and then their families are three parts that you should be actively ministering to every single day as a youth minister and as a church. So I think a lot of the reason why schools are in such a bad, have such a bad rap and have such a bad reputation nowadays and, like you're talking about, has that fatalistic mentality, I think a lot of the reason is because it's not modeled in the home how they should live anyway. So you know, if churches want to do a better job about that, I think a big, big thing would be to minister to the homes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's right. A lot of times when you have kids that are at school, they're trouble, right. We get irritated at those kids, but the reason they're like that is because that's how they've been raised. And kids in church are the same way.
Speaker 3:If we want to move to a place where, at schools, we are able to minister to students and make an impact in their life, we don't start at school, we start at home. That's one of the big problems On church on Sundays or on Wednesdays. If there's a kid that I've got that I've had a couple of times and they're not coming to Sunday school on Sunday morning, it's not because it's not always because they don't want to come, it's because their parents don't go to Sunday school so they can't get a ride, or they don't go to Sunday school or for Wednesday nights. I've got a lot of kids whose whose parents come to our adult Bible study, but a lot of the kids whose parents don't come, the kids also don't come.
Speaker 3:So I think that one of the bigger problems that we have, like Taylor said, is with our parents at home. We put a lot of emphasis on the church to you know, especially with students, to raise our students in the ways of the Lord and to be the biggest spiritual influences in their lives. But the problem is the church doesn't need to be that. The main and initial place for that is the home. And so when we disconnect that, you know, we start to develop a problem in which the church, you know it doesn't need to be the biggest and only place where students hear about Jesus.
Speaker 1:We should be facilitating and supporting the home values In a perfect world. That's what it should be like. We should be supporting the home values In a perfect world. That's what it should be like. We shouldn't be supporting the home. We shouldn't be like you said. We shouldn't be the you know the only spiritual guidance that they have Right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I talked to other Christians about this idea and some of them are for it, some of them are against it. And you know one of the things that people will say well, there's no public schools in the Bible. And you know I think that speaks to my point that the public schools should be explicitly Christian. Because when you look at, like you guys are saying, deuteronomy 6, it's the father's job and the parent's job to raise the children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. God's people at that time would say the Shema, when they wake up in the morning, when they go to bed at night Hear, O Israel, the Lord is your God, the Lord is one. You shall obey the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind. And it's supposed to be in the home.
Speaker 2:And I think everybody is kind of on board with that. And that is really the root of where all of this stems from. So when you look at all of the cultural issues that we're dealing with, we tend to think like oh well, if we throw money at this, if we make this law, then that's going to change something, but that's a reactionary solution to a deep-rooted problem and those are not going to be sustainably solving anything really, when you look at it, unless we address the issue of that.
Speaker 3:Deuteronomy 6, the families the fathers should be raising their kids, and so, spiritually, were you going to say something no, okay, okay, okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2:So when I, as a teacher, see students over the years and I see all the suffering that's going on out there, there are, of course, plenty of students that are raised as Christians, that are in the public schools. That's not uncommon, especially in this area, but there are some, and maybe even a lot I hadn't done any kind of survey or anything but that are really suffering. They're really and they're good kids. They know that they want to be good and whatever that means to them. They just have kind of like a vague sense of what that could mean. It's almost like hearing music from another room, a vague sense of what that could mean. It's almost like hearing music from another room. They feel like okay, I know I'm supposed to be doing something right now in this particular way, but I have no idea how to do it. And you know it's not happening in the home and you know it is supposed to be in the home, but the situation that we currently have is a situation where most students, most kids, most of our community youth are in the public schools.
Speaker 2:And when I think about that and I think about what God would have us to do, namely that everything should be explicitly Christian according to Scripture. Everything should be explicitly Christian according to Scripture, you know, particularly at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess to the glory of God, the Father, that he is Lord in heaven, on the earth and under the earth, that you know, except the public schools. Well, you know, it's everything, it's everything. And so I'm seeing these parts, you know, and I'm convinced that we've got to teach our—and this is, and I get it, it's a radical position, but I think it's an obedient position to the Lord—that we've got to disciple our students in the public schools and teach them how to be husbands, and teach them how to be fathers, and so that they can then disciple their own children.
Speaker 2:And I think that, biblically, is how you get to the root of all that's going on here. And I think that is how you, you know, instead of trying to, well, we got to pass another, you know, teacher raise and that's going to save the public schools. Or if we put, you know, a Ten Commandments poster in every classroom, and that's going to save the public schools. It's like that's not addressing you know. It's sort of like you know, you've got a rock in your shoe and you keep taking Tylenol and it's like, well, you could just take the rock out of your shoe and just go to the core of the problem. I don't know, would you guys agree with that, or what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think like you're, like you're saying it's, I don't think that we can reach, you know, the youth of America and the public school systems as a whole.
Speaker 1:I think if it's going to be effective it has to be on the individual level. You know, like you said, posting up a Ten Commandments poster in the bathroom isn't going to save the public school system, it's just not going to. But whenever you have teachers and you have other students that are living actively for the Lord and reaching students on the individual level because Christianity is not a majority choice, it's an individual choice that you have to make. And you know, I think we're falling into that culture, like we talked about just a little bit ago, where there's so many fans, we're all grouping together as if this Christianity thing is a choice that we all have to make together, as if it's not. We have to make it as an individual choice to follow the Lord. But yeah, I think, like you're saying, we've got to get to the root of the problem and people don't want to take on that responsibility, that relationship on an individual level, on a personal level.
Speaker 3:It's also a lot of the reason I think about this all the time. The public school system itself, you're right, is not an organization that pushes Christian values. Yes, there has been legislation that they're trying to get the Ten Commandments in schools but, like you said, that doesn't save anybody. It's a Band-Aid when you need stitches or it's Tylenol when you've got a rock in your shoe. It's not the fix, it's not enough. So I think one of our biggest problems with public education is what it's set up to do the government itself.
Speaker 3:Let's just bridge this a little bit. The federal government itself was set up originally to to not incorporate any laws, you know, for or against any specific religion. Because of that, you know, we end up with a place, a government, that is set up for one thing. It is to support and support and protect its people. Right, but the church is meant to to do something very different. The church is meant to to spread the gospel, to do something that is. That is very different than protecting the people. But sometimes it puts us in a place where we might have to enter awkward situations, we might have to make decisions. That means that we might lose a job, we might lose some money. So our government is set up to do something very opposite of what the church is trying to do. So to say that our public schools that are run by that government in some way are supposed to do that same thing, we have the same problem. Our schools are set up to try to help students and prepare them for the workplace, to give them, you know, you know decent understanding of values, but not just christian values. You know workplace values and how to how to hold a job, how to you know how to learn and not how to hold a job, how to learn and not how to follow Christ, and so I think if we were going to say that the public school system needed to be a place where people can learn to be a Christian, it would take a much bigger change in the public school system.
Speaker 3:I would say that, on a smaller level, I think it comes down to a lot of the things right now, to the teachers and the people that we have right now not the system itself changing, but the people in that system changing. I think that our teachers, like you said you're a teacher. I don't know if you're public about that on your podcast, but you're a teacher somewhere. I'm a teacher in Redwater. We do our best every single day to be an influence for those students, but it is it is not um in line with our you know our, our standards of teaching it is. It is in line with our christian values. That's nothing to do with the public education system. It just has to do with the, the draw for ourselves to make a better influence and help students find christ. So I think the issue is not necessarily the um, the, the legislation or the rules in which the public schools have. It is the individuals who are in those schools running them. Sure yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've been teaching for 20 years now and I just found out, like last year, that the public school system was actually created initially to teach students the Bible, so they wouldn't be tricked by the devil. So in 1640— I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't either, and it's insane. Like it's like wait, I've been doing this thing—I've been doing this the whole way, you know, all this time and nobody ever told me that and I just—it just happened to be on a YouTube video that I saw and I was like wait, that's not right. And I looked it up and it that's true. So in 1647 in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the first public school was created. They passed a law that was called the Old Deluder Satan Act and it was created so that students would in the community, would be taught the scriptures, so that they wouldn't be tricked by the Old Deluder Satan. And from that point on, for hundreds of years, you had students learning in public schools with catechisms like these questions, and answer things like you know, first grader, you know what's question number one, what's the chief end of man? And then the student, the first grader, is supposed to respond to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And these were in the public schools. You know kids would learn their ABCs with a biblical context, so for A Adam, b, babel, things like that. And so the public schools were actually created initially as explicitly Christian and that's kind of where the title comes from, because it was just such a shock to my system to realize that that's our history, because you would hear that and it doesn't even make any sense that that was a possibility.
Speaker 2:Three types of Christian perspectives on this idea of returning schools back, restoring schools back to teaching biblical principles, explicitly Christian principles, with the Bible and with these kinds of catechisms. There's one that all schools are secular and that they should stay secular because we live in a democracy and if you teach one thing then you should teach. You have to teach all these other things and you know people will say that a lot it's a democracy, it's actually a constitutional republic, but that's a lot that gets thrown out there. But then you've got the second one, that schools are secular and they should be Christian explicitly, but there's nothing that we can do about it and it's almost an impossible task and we should really, um, really not even try, because Jesus is coming back soon and we, we, you know, there's really just no point.
Speaker 2:And then the third perspective, which is my perspective, which is probably the least popular, which kind of goes into the you know if it's a good idea to make a podcast about the least popular thing or not but that the schools are secular but they should be explicitly Christian, like they were created to be initially. So where would you guys, would you guys agree with those perspectives that those are the ones that are out there, and where would you guys fall on those perspectives? Sorry to tell you go first.
Speaker 1:You were going to speak up well, I have not heard of that.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you had.
Speaker 1:Clint or not, I always thought of the ideals of what if it was a purely, you know, christian environment in our public schools? Never really considered it. I will say, on one side, you know, whenever Jesus created whatever God created us, he gave us the ability for free, will. You know, it almost would make make sense, you know, if I was creating something to make it programmed, and hard drives where it will make every single choice that I want it to do, you know. But the only issue is, if you do that, you know you can't choose to love. If you're, if you're, all choices are already pre-wired and predetermined. It's not love if you can't choose.
Speaker 1:And so I think I think I don't know where I would fall on that spectrum with those three choices.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think I don't know where I would fall on that spectrum with those three choices.
Speaker 1:And obviously I think it's beneficial to you know when they're young, to you know support and to you know what I don't know the best terminology, but to just always have Jesus right in front of them. You know, but also I think too I I hadn't really looked at the history of you know, the laws of the public school, but I was under the assumption that originally it well, that was put into place so that you know separation of church and state, not so that you keep church out of the school, but so the church doesn't have to be run by by the state and so exactly, yeah, so I, I don't know, I think, I think, if you, I think the the one beauty that is the public school system right now is that the students have the ability to choose every single day to live for Jesus in an environment that would like anything more than to see their faith crushed, which, if somebody does that correctly, it's a very powerful thing, can be a very powerful thing if they choose to live that way individually. But you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think you know I agree with Taylor on that a little bit Not fully, taylor, but you know a little bit on that. But you know the issue with public school. Like you said, there were three options there's. You know I'm going to summarize a little bit that Jesus should be out of school, that number one. Or that number two Jesus should be in school, but it's too hard to do anyway. Number three, that we need to try every bit of our effort to put Jesus back into schools. Would you say that? Those are the three summarized and so simple words. Yeah, yeah, I think that obviously the best option and the one that, as Christians, we should lean for is option three.
Speaker 3:You know, it is true that it is true that everything we've said today we talked about the institution of the home and how that should be the primary learning facility for students to know God, to know Jesus. I know your little boy. I've heard many stories of your wife talking about how he knows so much about the Bible and so much about Jesus because of you, because of the things that you've taught him, the things that you've raised him with. Yeah, and so you know, in a perfect world, that's what every student should get. They're not going to get that, though, um, and so the problem is, our public schools end up in a place where they oppose a lot of those morals, oppose a lot of those places. So I think it is a good idea, a good moral, a good goal, to to try to get our schools to push that direction.
Speaker 3:Um, I think that the more that we push that way, the more that we can, you know, engage in that, though the more push way, pushback we get, and and that's going to honestly be okay, because you know, if we're, if we as christians, are not experiencing some kind of of battle, some kind of uh, fight for, for you know, our faith, then you know, are we really fighting for it kind of fight for our faith? Are we really fighting for it? Are we really pushing our faith in this world? But I think that you're right that there needs to be a push for that, and not so that the school can become the primary focus and the primary education of our students when it comes to Scripture and about Jesus, but so that there is less opposition for them when they are out of the family, when they're out of their homes.
Speaker 1:And let me clarify what I was trying to say before. I think I had, you know, a little bit of a brain fart as I was trying to speak, so it wasn't coming out correctly. But I think that is true, I think what you are saying is correct and a push for any of that would be beneficial. But I think if, if, like you're talking about just a little while ago, nick, if we want to get to the root of the problem, you know, I don't think we give our students just enough credit. I mean, I think we can.
Speaker 1:We can definitely put blame on the government for the laws they created. We can put blame on the household as well, but when it comes down to it, everybody has to make choices individually, right. And if we want to see a changed school system, like we said, it's got to start on the individual level. Students have, they can make choices that are right, that are moral and are righteous. They choose not to do it, and so and that's the same thing with teachers.
Speaker 1:And so if we really want to get down to the root problem, it's on the individual level, when individual students, individual, and there's a lot of precipitating factors that could factor into this, but when it gets down to the line, it's individual students, individual teachers not living that on fire, that follower life for Jesus. And that's when we see all of this catechism of other issues happening, these evil things. Look at what's happening in the school system and, like you said, the preconceptions that we all get of the public school system being this dark and dungeness place, when the truth is, a lot of things could happen, a lot of things could change. We could bring Jesus back into the schools if it happened on the individual level and people chose to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree. If it happened on the individual level and people chose to do it, yeah, yeah, I agree. Which one of those perspectives do you think is the most biblical out of those three options?
Speaker 1:Obviously, the third one is the most biblical.
Speaker 3:Yeah, obviously Nick.
Speaker 1:Come on. No, I'm just agreeing with what you're saying. Obviously, that is the place, but, you know, and I also think, if that was instituted, I think there would be a change towards, you know, towards Christianity. There would be a lot more kids going towards that, you know. But, like you said, there'd also be a lot of pushback too, which that shouldn't be something that we should shy away from. This life. Is war, right? If we're not, you know, butting heads against the devil, it's probably because we're walking with them at some times, right, you know? So, no, I agree that that would be the most biblical.
Speaker 3:Nick, I got a question for you. So, in that realm of thinking, as we're talking about, the ideal situation is where we bring for lack of a better phrase, bring Jesus back into the schools. Whose responsibility does that fall on? Does that fall on the federal government? Does that fall on the state government? Does that fall on our administration, or does it fall on us as individuals, let's say as teachers? Who does that fall on at the highest level? At what level do we really start to see change and where does that come from?
Speaker 2:all of that. But I think in order to start because it's obviously not going to start with everybody I think to start you'd have to get into the local school board. I think a local school board and a local community can make that decision, because each, you know, in the secular world, even each school board and each particular school decides how they want their culture to be. School decides how they want their culture to be and it would take, you know, a community of local Christians who you know. I mean there are many places in America that are completely secular, but there are also other places that are very faith-based, that are very Christian. They follow Christ and the majority of people in those areas follow Christ and we can decide to follow Christ. You know what I mean. Like it's not as if there is some law that is above the living God that says we can't do that, especially in certain places. You know, if everybody is on board, then it's my position that we should try to then make that happen. All it really would take would be the decision to do that, and it's a school board or local community's choice to make that a reality. To make that a reality, and I think from a smaller local place that could then catch fire, and then you know, okay, well then that would be a county thing or a state thing, or you know that it could spread in that way, and I think people would see the fruit of that.
Speaker 2:I think people would see, you know that, the difference, the salt and the light, and there is going to be a conflict. That is, there's supposed to be a conflict, and I think that you have to. You can't avoid conflict, and so you have to choose the right conflict. What does God want our conflict to be? We have to be pushing, we have to be building and fighting for His kingdom, and I totally agree that if you're not in conflict with darkness, you're probably walking with it.
Speaker 2:And so is the conflict going to be which bathroom do we use, because that's where the enemy has the conversation? Or is the conversation going to be about which bathroom do we use, because that's where the enemy has the conversation? Or is the conversation going to be about which denomination is the school going to be? You could have, you know, a public school, be Baptist, if the local place wants to be Baptist, or if the local place wants to be Presbyterian, or whatever, or non-denominational, or whatever that conflict is going to be. That's a better conflict, I think, than you know. Should we let these people in this room? Because, you know, because those are two very different fights and we've got to push. We've given over so much territory that we're in our own territory now and we've got to, you know, push back against that and claim more territory and change the conversation back to the right conflict, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're making sense and, honestly, you're right At the most basic level. It's not going to change at the federal level anytime soon. It's not going to change at the state level anytime soon. So the first place that we need to start would be with the individual schools, would, like you said, the school board or your principal, your or your admin, and it's also very true that we don't receive a lot of pushback on on small things. Like you know, we we still see prayers at football games, we still see things that technically are not allowed or are illegal, um pushed and acceptable in schools, especially down here. But I think the issue then becomes let's say, nick, let's say that you moved to an area that was completely, completely, completely secular. There's no Jesus left in it, yemen, yemen. Let's say yeah.
Speaker 1:Yemen.
Speaker 3:That's a terrible example yeah, let's say Nick moves to Yemen, takes his family with him Yemen, texas. Is there a Yemen? Texas's say, yeah, yemen, that's a terrible example. Yeah, let's say Nick moves to Yemen, takes his family with him, yemen, texas. Is there a Yemen, Texas? No, I was just, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Let's say you moved to Yemen and you know you're trying to be the Jesus and that's what you're trying to. You know, take that school from where it is and change it. You know, do you start with the staff? You know it is true that as an individual, nick, you would have the responsibility and the expectation of being an influence and a, you know, a light for your students. But I think you're right as a whole. If we don't start to get more you know, people to help us on that, whether it's other teachers, whether it's other staff, whether it's administration if we don't get that behind us, then eventually we're just. You know, if we're only dealing with students, then we're going really slowly. We've got to get it to a place where those around us our teachers, our administration are also pushing for that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the idea of the podcast. I mean, I'll be Noah if I have to be. I'm not really much of an evangelist, so that's why the church body is designed to have all these different parts and different advantages and different talents and gifts. So one of the things that I have seen is— Hang on, wait, taylor, I've got something to on Go ahead, Taylor I was going to say.
Speaker 1:As we're talking about this, obviously it's evident. How probable is this? That our schools move back to a 100% Christian environment? It's not very probable to me.
Speaker 1:Once Jesus returns, it'll be 100% true, that's true, but as for, right now, I do not see that being probable, although that's the most biblical perspective, although that would make the most sense and have the most eternal impact upon the youth of America, then again, I just don't see it being very probable that's going to happen. And so what's our tactic, especially looking at you as teachers? What do you teach, nick? I teach foreign language. Oh my gosh, you must be smart. I took three years of Spanish. Well, three and a half years. Three and a half years, I still don't know anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's a stress to say that they get smart. I wouldn't go to. What do you?
Speaker 2:teach, I teach Spanish, yeah, spanish Spanish, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well so so what's the tactic that? You know just my thoughts of teachers as a robotics teacher and a Spanish teacher in the public school system. How can you make the biggest impact? Well, I think it's very simple. What does Jesus look like when he teaches robotics? What does Jesus look like when he teaches a foreign language? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, modeling that for your students, I think, would be just a great impact. And especially, like we talked about, the root problem is really on the individual level. So if you're individually having that on-fire relationship with a man, that can make a lot of difference.
Speaker 2:It can. Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think that there are a lot of secondary questions that I think are important and have to be answered, but I think initially we've got to get everybody rowing in the same direction In order for there to be, like, you know, oh, which denomination is it? Or, you know, do we do it this way in this county or this way in this other county? Those are good questions that have to be answered, but those are questions that are kind of secondary. Everybody kind of has to be on board with like yes, we should do this thing and make schools Christian again. And I think the only way to do that is just a conversation, which is kind of what I'm trying to start. And because you know you can't get to that second point of making those secondary decisions without having a conversation first, because I think this is a question, a premise, that is not even possible for most Christians. I don't think it's even crossed most Christians' mind that it's a possibility to restore the public schools back to the Christian nature that they once were.
Speaker 2:And you know you asked the question like and you know you ask the question like how, how would you teach a foreign language class in in a biblical way. What does that look like? And you know, for me, I think every classroom should be centered around the living god and I think there are ways to do that. You know, like in a math class, you would teach like two plus two equals four. Okay, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly you know spiritual about that, but when you put that in a biblical perspective it's like wait, it's, it's two.
Speaker 2:It was two plus two plus two equals four. It was that yesterday and it's still four. Like that's the design that God. It's not two plus two equals four, because god, or it's a beautiful language god has created, right, it's, it's his design, he designed it that way and he is a god of, he is a god of order and it doesn't change from day to day and it's not something that you would be like oh, you know, do my times tables? Like zero times one is zero. God is good. You know, one times two is two God is good.
Speaker 2:It's like you don't stop yeah right, right, you don't like stop and then give a sermon. It's just like every once in a while you come back and you'd be like you know, wow, this is God is amazing in his design that this is still the same. And so, like in a foreign language, you know, you could even teach like, if you're teaching like Spanish 1, let's say, you could teach like a children's Bible you know in Spanish, and have your vocabulary tests be on you know Genesis, and then have the chapter tests be on the story of Adam and Eve or something in Spanish. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so those are just small practical ways. And so those are just small practical ways.
Speaker 2:I think there are actual answers to those secondary questions that are important and I think need to be answered and figured out. But I'm just trying to get everybody in the conversation in the boat of we should be doing this because I think, like we talked about that, generally speaking, broadly speaking, everything is headed downhill and we've got to turn this thing around. And if you know, because for the next generation, you know, proverbs says that the righteous man saves up wealth for his children's children. So I'm not thinking about like how is my life going to be great today, like I'm not thinking about what can I consume next, like I don't want to be an appetite. I want to think about the next generation and the generation after that, and I don't want to leave something for them that they're going to ask the question like why didn't you fight, why didn't you fight for us, why did you leave us this, that we can't, you know, surpass the chaos that's going on? And I just want to leave a blow for the kingdom, you know, in my life, saying that you know, this is what we tried to do anyway and we were at least obedient to God in trying to do that.
Speaker 2:One of the questions that I wanted to ask was I've asked several other Christians and Christians I love and respect and, in my life, have looked up to. I've asked, like you know, retired teachers that I used to have when I was a kid, and a lot of the response that I'm getting, most of the responses that I'm getting are you know, well, I'm a Christian but I believe in church and state and I don't think schools should be Christian, and I'm just surprised that most of the people that I'm asking about that are saying that. And I guess what would your response be to believers, to brothers and sisters in Christ who have that perspective? Can?
Speaker 3:you repeat that perspective again. I was writing something down, I missed the question, so go back to the perspective that I'm answering the question about.
Speaker 2:Well, the Christians, our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who say that they don't think schools should be Christian because of things like separation of church and state. What would your response be to that perspective?
Speaker 3:My response would be you know it's going to come off. I'm not sure how it's going to come off, but I would say it's not a battle. It really is and in the end I feel like the more progress you make in that direction, the more you're going to have opposed you. I think that the problem is the same thing with church and state and the government aspect. You know, the government itself is set up for the protection of the betterment of the people. The church is set up for the sharing of the gospel and the building of the church and its people. So a public school is going to have that same opposition. You know there is a place for us to, as individuals, make strides to in our classrooms and as our, you know, in an individual sense, in our individual districts, to make our education more in line with basic Christian morals and basic, you know, christian understandings.
Speaker 3:But I think that, as a whole, the problem is that the public school is set up to do something very different than what the Bible teaches us individually. So I think that the problem is the public school is not made to teach that. So, yes, we can add classes. We can add classes, like I know at one point you talked about doing, I think you said, an Old Testament or New Testament class at the district that you're in. I know that at Redwater we had it a few years back and I think that there are places where we can add that.
Speaker 3:But I think, as a whole, the problem is that the public school is not set up to teach kids about Jesus. And so I think that you know, without changing the entire scope of the public education system, that I think the best we can do is help kids on an individual level. And I know that that is a little bit of a of a cop-out to say that there's no way to change the public school, there's no way to really do that. I think that we, you know, try to make strides every down an individual level in our individual classrooms, sure, and to have an admin that's supportive of that. But you know it goes back to that same question earlier of the people teaching and backing those things. I mean, are the people and the teachers that we have in our public schools going to be the people teaching New Testament classes, teaching discernment and Old Testament principles, and if not, then are we going to fire all of them and hire out of the closest church.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I'll say this I can't speak for Sims, I can speak for Redwater, though I've been in conversations with people and they've been surprised when I mention about Redwater being public school. They're like, wait, what I thought Redwater was a was a Christian school. You know, and the way that Redwater upholds himself in the community, and you know Redwater is a public school. But you know, we have administrators and we have we're so blessed to have administrators and leaders that prioritize that individual relationship with the Lord and it affects and it resonates throughout the whole, the whole redwater community. Um, so that's just an example and all.
Speaker 1:Obviously, if that's for the that's in the minority, you have a school and a school system that's set up like that, a public school system. But it is possible and what? What's the, what's the dividing line there? It's that on the individual level, we have some, especially that are in our decision-making chairs, that value that personal relationship with the Lord and it's effectual in their decisions they make for the school. So then again, I think that just points to, as we all have agreed, that obviously there would be a whole lot of benefit.
Speaker 1:There would be a whole lot of benefit in the ideals that we're talking about instituting God back into the classrooms. But you know, even if we did that, even if it was completely Christian, we were teaching completely Christian values. Man, if still on the individual level we're not making that choice to stride towards it, you know what kind of good is that Definitely puts us in a position where it would be a better position for that to take place. But then good is that definitely puts us in a position where it would be a better position for that to take place.
Speaker 3:But then again, I think it all falls down to that personal decision, that personal decision to follow the lord. It kind of kind of goes back to the understanding you know when, when jesus, uh, after his crucifixion, you know what we see acts and romans, the beginning of the early church. There were so many times in those first few years, first few decades, first few centuries especially, that people tried to take what Jesus taught and change it into something else. They tried to take Jesus' teachings and his understanding and say, hey, jesus taught this and this. They tried to add things to it to make it something else. But in the end the truth of the scriptures shined through. It was not corrupted. We know that because we can look back at the biblical text, we can look back at the understanding of the New Testament and know that everything that is in there is good and is God-ordained and is God-breathed. So they couldn't take something that wasn't you know from Jesus and add it to that.
Speaker 3:So I would say that the problem with our public schools is going to be the same thing. You know, we can try to incorporate Jesus into our public schools, but in the end. I just don't think it's going to fit the mold. I think that we, you know, we try our best to fit it, but in the end, you know, we, on a smaller and personal level, we do our best, but in the end, the public school system, but I think that the the public school system as a whole has come so far that it would be almost impossible to to really turn that system back to what it was. I think it might be more um more probable or more possible to start fresh, and that may be in the form of private schools, that may be in the form of homeschool, that may be in the form of something else, and I'm not saying that it's not something that we shouldn't try, because I definitely think that it's something that we should, but just accepting that it is something that is going to be an uphill battle every single day because of the institution that is already in place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does God want the public schools to be explicitly Christian?
Speaker 3:I feel like I'm supposed to say yes, no, nick, you're right. I think that God wants every single person. I think that he calls every single one of us. He draws every single one of us, whether we choose to follow him or not. I think that is right. But in the same breath, we are also living in a sinful world. This ain't Eden. Yeah, this ain't Eden. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try, nick, so don't quote me on that in the next text message chain that we have. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try, nick, so don't quote me on that in the next text message chain that we have. But what I'm saying is until we see Jesus return, it's going to be an uphill and losing battle in this world for our public schools, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try. I'm saying that we're going to have to deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does the enemy want public schools to be Christian?
Speaker 3:No, he does not.
Speaker 2:Okay. So if you have Christians who don't want the public schools to be Christian and you have the enemy who doesn't want the public schools to be Christian, are those Christians doing the devil's will?
Speaker 1:I know that's a very loaded question, but I think that when we look at it at a probability side, the probability of that taking place is of us converting all the public school systems into Christian-based teachings and all that kind of thing. Obviously, in the world that we live in, like we're talking about, I don't think it's very probable. Do I think that Christians are doing the will of the devil if they're not standing up for that? No, because I do think, because there are things that we can do that falls within the will of God, that would be very effectual and very changing in the lives of people in the public school system if we would just live on fire for the Lord on the individual level, like we're talking about, in that personal relationship, because that will be, that will be extremely effectual if somebody actually chooses to do that, whether it's a student, whether it is a teacher, because you're reaching a whole lot of people on an individual, on a relational level that let's just be honest curriculum and guidelines that's pushed by a school system wouldn't reach as much as a relationship level would. Um, so do I think that you know they're following in the will of the devil? If they're not standing up and fighting for that, I don't know how far I'd go to say that, um, because I don't know how probable it would be that that would actually happen. Um, so I I don't know. I mean, that's something I definitely have to think on.
Speaker 1:Um, then again, like we're talking about man, if it was probable and it's something we could get in there and it was something that would be easy to do, let's do it because that would be so, that would be so great. To be able to institute in the, in the lives of multiple children is to have the word of god in their face every single day. I mean 100%, we need to do that. But, like we talked about, we're living in a following world. Number one, they should be getting that in the home. That's where it should start. And number two, the church should be facilitating the home and their values to support these kids, and school, I think, falls below that. But do I think that they're following the devil's will by? Not, I don't know how far I'd go to say that let me.
Speaker 3:I got an example that I want to try to try to give to explain my perspective. So imagine, imagine. So we already put Nick in a school in Yemen, so let's put him in a school in Chernobyl now. So, nick, you're teaching in Chernobyl, which I know at one point was highly irradiated because of, you know, this atomic bomb explosion. So let's say that you've got kids going to school in Chernobyl and you know for a fact that if they're going in there, that they are going to be exposed to high levels of radiation, which we know can be dangerous. So every single day, as you're going to school, as you're walking to school, you hand out masks. You hand out masks to kids. You say, hey, look, as you're going into this place, like, here's a mask. You know, try to be safe, try to do your best. You teach them about how to be safe, how to limit their contact, how to be, you know, conscientious about what they do in those areas.
Speaker 3:But in the end, the answer is not to teach kids how to adapt to the area that they're in, that is going to be irradiated, going to be damaged.
Speaker 3:The end goal would be to take them somewhere, take them to a school, take them to a place where there is no longer the problem of that radiation, take them to a place where they don't have to deal with that anymore.
Speaker 3:So I think the issue is that our public school system is not going to be a place that is feasible, in the next 50 years, to turn back to Christian values, and I don't think it's a bad thing to say that. I think that it could have been instituted that way. But the public school system is so wrought with governmental restriction that it would be more feasible to find a place where you don't have those same restrictions, you don't have those same problems. So, yes, I think that it is a great goal and should be on every Christian's mind, every Christian teacher especially, to bring Jesus into their classroom every single day. But I think the answer is not to change the public school system. I think it's to change the hearts of the students there and to change the families there so that they can make better decisions in there while they have to be.
Speaker 2:Okay, I see what you're saying. Is there any disadvantage to teaching a particular school subject without God at the center?
Speaker 3:Science is always the one that's at the heart of that question. Especially when you talk about biology, you talk about evolution and micro and macro and all those kind of things, and there is an argument to be made that in certain situations like that, we are expected to teach things that are not biblical perspectives. I know a teacher who taught years ago that was talking about the Big Bang, how we talk about in the beginning of the universe. This bang happened and all the universe came from that, and she always explained it this way. She said you know, god went bang and it happened. You know, there are ways that as teachers, we sometimes have to incorporate a little bit of biblical understanding into our classrooms and I think that you know science is the one that goes very strongly sometimes against biblical perspectives, because science purports that the world, over millions and millions of years, has adapted and evolved in a way that is natural, in a way that is apart from God, anything that is worth teaching anything that is worth teaching to our students.
Speaker 1:If it's inconsistent with God and His values, it's not worth teaching to our students. If it's inconsistent with God and His values, it's not worth teaching because our God is a God of logic.
Speaker 1:I mean he created science, he created math, he created language. He's the God of logic, he makes sense. If there's anything that contradicts God, then it's not truth and it's not logical. That's why, you know, obviously we talk about the Big Bang. I mean that is inconsistent with God and the values of God, and if it's not consistent with him, it's not a true scientific discovery. It can't be, because our God is a God of logic. So I think it's not detrimental. Anything that you teach in school should be consistent and should not contradict anything that has to do with the character and the person of God, because he's the one that created it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure Are the problems in public schools spiritual problems.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. We just came from a camp Net Extreme and our whole topic, our theme, was warrior and we talked about how we're looking at spiritual warfare, how everything in the physical realm is affected and first spurred by the spiritual realm, and we're trying to get our students to understand how, if you ever want to be victorious in this life, you shouldn't fight with physical weapons. You need to fight a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. So I think everything that happens, everything that's good, everything that's bad in our life, every conflict that we come up against, it first starts in the spiritual realm. And I think if anybody wants to be victorious in this life number one it has to be through their personal relationship with Jesus, because he's the only one that can fight this battle for us. But number two, you will lose this battle of what's called life if you don't look at it as in spiritual glasses. Yeah, I know, clint probably has something to add to that.
Speaker 3:No, I agree. You know, a lot of times, when we look at the public school system in general because that's our topic of conversation we look at it like how do we fix this from a perspective of government, how do we fix this from a perspective of administration, from guidelines, from regulations? But the problem is I think you're right, taylor, and I think, nick, you're trying to make that same point is the problem is it's not a physical battle, it's a spiritual one. You know, if we try to fix this on the physical side, if we try to change legislation, we try to change all that, we're fighting the battle in the wrong way. We're fighting it, you know, with physical means and means of this world and not with spiritual ones. Those are the ones that are going to overcome in the end?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know you were saying are you saying that it's impossible to make the schools explicitly Christian for 50 years? Is that what you're referring?
Speaker 3:to. I did give that number and I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think that I wouldn't say it's impossible. We have this thing at camp called the impossible shot. I coined the term improbable shot. I think that it, nick, that is extremely improbable. I think that it is a fight worth fighting. I think that it is something that, as a teacher, I strive for every day to make my classroom a little bit more of a place where students can see me as a Christian living a good moral relationship with Jesus, and to encourage my district as a whole to do that and I'm not the only one doing that, but I think as a whole. When we talk about even just Texas, if we narrowed that down to just Texas, I think that it is very improbable.
Speaker 1:And I also add I'll also add this, thinking about Jesus and the life that he lives. I mean, he lived in a very godless society, even though it was the center at that time where Christianity spurred out of the Jewish culture. But you know the Pharisees, the scribes and the teachers. They were so far off, they were so far left. They might have been teaching the word of God, but definitely wasn't in their hearts. And what did Jesus do? He didn't come and try to uproot all of their doctrine on the writing level. He didn't go and try to point out, go out the book and point out every single thing that they were doing wrong. What did he do? He lived it. He lived the word of God and as he was living out his personal relationship with the Lord, he identified the places that needed to be fixed in their lives. And I think that's what we need to do in the public schools.
Speaker 1:I think that's what we need to do in our everyday lives is live in such a way that the truth of God shines out from us and identifies the lies of the devil in in life circumstances and situations. And if we had more people in the public school system that live like that, I think we'd have a very different public school system altogether.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, nick, I feel like, I feel like you would disagree this on that, on the idea of changing the public schools to private. Tell us what you think, tell us your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Just to make sure I understand what you guys are saying. If I'm not understanding, just let me know. But I'm kind of convinced that there is, that God outlines biblical conquest in his word from Genesis to Revelation. And so when you look at you know you have the garden, adam and Eve, genesis 3,. God is immediately on the ground and begins the process of restoring his people and his creation. Then you have Noah, the flood, and then he begins with an individual, abraham, and he's beginning to build and fight for the kingdom. And then Abraham has a family with Sarah and Isaac, and that family grows and the kingdom grows. And then that family becomes a tribe with Abraham, isaac and Jacob, and then they have, you know he's got his sons, and then you end up with Joseph, and so you end up then with Moses in the desert, and then that individual family tribe that becomes a nation.
Speaker 2:God is conquering territory every step of the way. And then you know with David, or with Saul, david, solomon, and then the church, you know after 400 years of silence in the Gospels and the book of Acts, and so there's this God is a conqueror, and you can see that he is moving from this one individual to a global conquest, and I'm convinced bically that that is what we're supposed to do. We are the royal stewards, as we're referred to in the garden, imaging him, and I'm convinced that it is our duty to restore the Garden of Eden. I understand that it's not Eden, but I think it's our job to make it Eden under God's biblical mandate, and I realize that that's improbable, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:I would just say that God is not the God of probability, he's the God of certainty and he's the God who tells you know, abraham, that he can do these things and that Sarah is going to have a baby. And she looked and she laughs because it's, it's so crazy, it wasn't probable that she would have a baby. You know, it's not probable that a donkey talks or an axe head floats. It's these, these are not probabilities. In fact, a lot of these things that we're told about are improbable, if not considered impossible. And so I, you know. You know, that's kind of where I'm coming from and I totally understand the probability argument. I just don't see that principle. You know, just because it's not probable doesn't mean that, you know, it's not something worth putting effort toward, if that makes any sense. Would you guys agree with that idea of biblical conquest.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I obviously think that there are strides that we should be making, you know, in every day, to see the like you said.
Speaker 3:You know trying to make the Garden of Eden trying to bring that back. You know we live in a sinful world. We live in a place where, on this earthly plane, that there is going to be separation between us and God because of the sin that has entered this world. And so I think we make strides every single day to make ourselves and those around us see Christ, to live the best life that we can in the sinful world, and in the end we hope that, when Jesus comes back, that we hope that we've made enough of a difference in other people's lives. I say enough of a difference not to say that it's something that is based off of works, but just to say that every single day we try our best to live like Jesus so that others can see Jesus in us. But I also think that you know to say that. You know this world is in itself simple. I think that the hope for perfection, the hope for that in this world is just going to be futile.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't know, and I think you know, looking at you, know the prophecies of Revelation. I mean we're getting to a time in history where obviously we're closer now than ever to Jesus coming back. But I think we're also moving at a faster rate because we see all these things happening before us and obviously we know that. You know there's going to be a lot of things that get worse before you know things get better before we get up on out of here and I cannot wait for that day. But you know, and we talked about the God of the impossible which he is, and I think something that was very impossible was him taking a disgusting, no good sinner like me and wanting to have another have a relationship with me.
Speaker 1:And until that day comes, when we're up on out of here and this world continues to get darker, there's one thing I can do is just live every single day, making him the Lord of my life, every single day and wherever that leads, whatever relationships that I cross with these earthly relationships.
Speaker 1:In the process, I pray that God works through me on the individual level to other relationships and leads me into what he wants me to and hopefully, like Clint's saying, I live in a way that will make a difference for the lord. By the time, this is over all, all said and over with um. What does that mean that we shouldn't strive for goals like that? Absolutely not. We should definitely strive for goals like that, but we also should live uh, we also should live with with a logic and a reality of how we should do ministry here as well. Like we said, ministry is not what it was 10 years ago and it's not going to be what it is 10 years from now, but there's ways that we can reach and that we can reach this lost world right now, in this moment.
Speaker 1:And however, the best way is to do that? That can be debated, but as for now, I'm just going to follow the Lord, and His leadership in that and wherever he leads from there is probably going to be the best and most effectual way to reach other lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Last question what happens if we don't make schools Christian again?
Speaker 3:If we don't make schools Christian again? Yeah, if they stay secular. If the school stays secular, then Jesus still sits on the throne. I think that, secular, if the school stays secular, then jesus still sits on the throne. I think that, yeah, you know to say that it is a. You know to say that it is the last ditch effort, to say that, um, the only way to spread the gospel is to make our schools, um, you know, christian again. I think it. I think, in a way, limits, um, our perspective of who god is.
Speaker 3:Can can jesus still work in a school that does not hang the ten commandments on the walls? Sure, can they. Can Jesus still work in a school that does not hang the Ten Commandments on the walls? Sure. Can he still work in a school that does not have positive, moral, christian values? Yeah, he can. Would it be better if there were those schools? Yes, should we fight for those every single day? Yes, as educators, obviously, that is something I would love. I would love not to come to school every day and worry that someone's going to try to steal something out of the back of my truck or vandalize my classroom. I would love to be in a school like that and I think that it would be good. I think that also we have to realize that just because a school is quote secular does not mean that God cannot still work in us.