Make Schools Christian Again
A podcast to the American church for the exiles in public education.
Make Schools Christian Again
#9: Is God Calling Us to Reclaim Our Schools? with Bob Crockett
We explore how public education in America has transformed from its explicitly Christian foundations to today's secular system, examining this significant cultural shift through the perspective of someone who experienced education in the 1960s.
• American public schools were explicitly Christian for 316 years (1647-1963) before becoming secular
• The 1963 Supreme Court ruling removed Bible readings from schools, claiming it could be "psychologically harmful"
• Community connectedness characterized education in the 1960s, with school days beginning with prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance
• Technology has replaced personal interaction, diminishing trust and community that once defined school environments
• Problems in education are fundamentally spiritual and require spiritual solutions
• Biblical "conquest" involves reclaiming territory for God's kingdom through faithful action
• Teaching biblical models of family and relationships could help break generational cycles
• Walking by faith rather than sight means pursuing God's vision for education despite seeming improbability
Take time to consider where God might be calling you to participate in the spiritual renewal of education in America, whether through prayer, advocacy, or direct involvement in schools.
Without you, without you, without you, I'm something like a pale gray sun. Did you hear that? Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So what year did you graduate high school?
Speaker 3:1969.
Speaker 2:Okay, and that was a public high school 1969. Okay, and that was a public high school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was a small high school in West Texas. Okay.
Speaker 2:About how big. How many kids were in there? Students.
Speaker 3:There were 77 in my graduating class, okay, and that's about the usual average. But it was a town of about 3,500 and we had a junior high and a high school and a few grade schools. So everybody went to the same high school in that area if you're raised in that town. So everybody knew each other, okay.
Speaker 2:So what was high school like? I imagine you probably remember that more than elementary and middle school. Okay, Going up. So what was high school like? I imagine you probably remember that more than elementary and middle school.
Speaker 3:But as far as your, high school experience was how would you describe that? Well, that's interesting. It was just a way of life. You grew up and you went to school and you worked during the summer and the teachers were people in your community. You knew who they were. You knew them from church, so you had a relationship with them. So it wasn't like it was a separate part of your life. That's just what your life was. You went to school and you had extracurricular activities around the school and it was just part of growing up. That was your life and it was well-rounded. We had announcements in the morning on the intercom. We had the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer every morning to start off the school all the way through grade school and high school. It even happened. If there were special announcements in high school, they would have it, but all our sporting events, national anthem and prayer and just never thought anything about it.
Speaker 2:That's just the way it was done so before the like, at the beginning of the day, they would do the announcements, all that sort of thing on the intercom. And when you said there was a prayer like would somebody actually get on the intercom and like pray to the Christian God, is that how that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, they had the principal usually give the announcements and then one of the students would do the prayer or the Pledge of Allegiance, so there's always someone that's invited to go to the room to do that.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:No one you know thought that much about it. It's just you're. Either you thought everyone was a believer, then you didn't have any agnostics or difference of view in that small West Texas town.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what sort of classes did you take? Was it kind of the same things that are out there today Math, science, reading?
Speaker 3:English and we had speech when I was in high school. I remember taking speech and then copying things like that. It's all practical experience type stuff. I was in sports all throughout the city and so most of the afternoons is going to practice meetings, so there's nothing. Well, they had home ec and they had shop. I remember that I didn't do either one of those, but I do remember they had shop classes. I thought that was just country guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cowboys yeah, so the and you mentioned, like all the people in the school were more of a community, like people knew each other. It just makes me think of how today, like a lot of what's going on, is that the cell phones have really contributed a lot to like replacing that human interaction, like whenever you were in high school in the late 60s, like that wasn't even remotely an option, like there wasn't an option to not be part of the community. Right is that?
Speaker 3:and that's interesting. You said, well, we needed to check up on our kids and in case something happens. There was never that thought at all growing up. I mean, you would go without your friends and, uh, your parents usually trusted you when you went out. There was never getting in trouble because it wasn't that much to do in that small town. There was meanness, of course, but if you want to talk to someone, you were in the Spanish Club, you're in the music club or all these different activities, and those are the friends you usually hung out with and you didn't have to keep in touch all the time. You went home yet supper with your parents, you studied, had to do your homework and then on weekends, usually when you got together and did outside stuff. But there was never that feeling like, oh, I've got to stay in touch.
Speaker 3:All we had were just, uh, house phones, yeah, land phone, landline phones, and that was sufficient. If you're at somebody's house, you need to call your parents. You could call them, but never thought about having to call them during the day. If you had a flat, you didn't call your parents, you fixed it, didn't worry about having help coming. Neighbors would always be there help you out. So, uh, we didn't keep in touch. Well, we did. We talked on the phones. If you had a girlfriend, you talk on the phone all the time, yeah, but then your parents, you get mad because you're trying to put the phone in case someone calls. And we actually had party lines out there before each one had an individual number that's right, yeah, be yeah.
Speaker 3:Other people would be on that line and you'd have to wait until they got off. You'd lift it up and you'd hear someone talking and you'd just hung it up. Yeah. You'd say you know you've got to get off. I get my time too. There was never that thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the things I remember. Growing up as a kid, my grandparents lived out in the country and their phone was—I mean, it's a very, very small town like 100 people and you could just pick up the rotary phone and you could just listen to people talk. They were just having a conversation and I'd be like five years old and I would just pick up the phone and just hear Gladys talking about her petunias or something, and it was just. It's just such a different time and it wasn't that long ago. So what do you think accounts for why things were?
Speaker 2:Why was there such a high trust society back then? Because you could just walk over to somebody's house without, like today, like you know, you can. If you're going to contact somebody, you've got to, like you know, do all this, like you know, text them and or send an email, like can we schedule this time to talk? And you've got to go through their secretary, basically, and that sort of thing, and you know, text them or send an email Like, can we schedule this time to talk? And you've got to go through their secretary, basically, and that sort of thing, and you know their digital secretary, like back then, like I remember, like even in the 80s, you could just walk over to somebody's house and ring the doorbell and then they'd just welcome you in, or y'all could just, out of nowhere, just hang out all of a sudden, like what out all of a sudden um, like what, how do you?
Speaker 3:what accounted for that high trust society? You know, that's a good point. I remember in a small town that way, but I don't know in large cities. I can't relate to people that grew up in large cities. Yeah, in my experience my dad had friends and they would just come over and we might be eating or something, and it was never an inconvenience. They'd get up and go to the door and say, hey, look who's here, so and so Get another plate, come on in. And maybe that's just the way we communicated. What we can do on the phone or text now Couldn't do back then. So people just came and went. We uh, we'd go visit friends and you didn't call before you went, but you were doing other stuff and you stopped in to see them.
Speaker 3:And I remember when we first moved to paris, oh in 76, we had friends. We had a lot of young marrieds in the class and that was a lot of fun. And sometimes we just drive, we go over someone's house and it's been evening visiting and set up a meeting where we have a party, something on the weekend and it was just fun to have people come over. It wasn't that I'm struggling in the world. I'm gonna have my time and be by myself, yeah, and you just enjoy the company and your friends having relationships.
Speaker 3:And now that I'm older, uh, it's uh, it's a lot different, because it's hard to get dressed and get out and get going. And I don't know you. Today you go to a restaurant or something. Everyone's looking at their phones the parents or kids, not much communication and you go to. This is just me. But when you go to worship services or Bible class, people bring out their phones. I used to open up my book and make notes. I know where things are on a certain side of the page and I can find it, but it's just to me what I'm teaching to see people looking at their phone. You know, can you get your nose?
Speaker 3:out of that and look up. So it's not just in schools but in everyday life. We're closing off and I think we've talked about with the COVID how that has really changed our way we treat each other, yeah, how we act about getting out in public. We're not as apt to do that. I have noticed a major change. I don't know if it's me, because I'm getting older. I've noticed our culture is doing better. Yeah, there's an Italian comedian. I can't think of his name.
Speaker 2:I think I know who you're talking about. I think it's Sebastian Maniscalco.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he has a routine when people come to his house when he was young, yeah, and you laugh out loud because that's true, that's the way it used to be. That's just community, I think. Yeah, community is so much bigger. We get news the next minute what happened in Iran or what happened in Dallas or in Minnesota. Back then you had like two major news sources and it was on the TV and you didn't have ready access to events as soon as they happened. But now we kind of have immediate gratification, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that comedy bit is something that's you know used to. People could just walk over to your house and they just ring the doorbell and you just let them in and have a good you know visit. But then today he makes the point that if the doorbell rings, everybody's all of a sudden like suspicious, like who's here? You know right, he says hide. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We didn't have a front porch, but we had a backyard. Right, he says hide, yeah, we didn't have a front porch, but we had a backyard. Invariably they'd go out and sit in lawn chairs in the backyard and they may have had kids close to our age and we'd play, got there and play. I thought that was so neat. They'd always be out there in the backyard listen with their friends. Yeah. But you don't see that so much anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Do you think it was a more high trust society because people shared the same values?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so. Yeah, Because in our neighborhood we'd go on vacation and we'd go like once every summer and we might be gone three weeks. He would leave our front door unlocked in case the neighbors needed to get in and get something. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And I think about that and I said, oh, there's no way I could do that now. Do we have that kind of relationship with our neighbors that they're invited to come in anytime and not worry about a stranger coming? And I think with news immediate we hear all kinds of bad things all over the world. And there may have been bad things all over the world going on back then, but you didn't hear it as much. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So our neighborhood, all your neighbors know what's going on. You're amazed that your parents knew what you did or what you didn't do. Then, as you get older, you realize they have a network that kept them informed. Yeah, my brother was two years older than me and he was always getting in trouble for something. He was always pushing the envelope and my parents always found out. So you just knew you couldn't get away with it. Or were you willing to pay the price if you did something bad? I wasn't. I grew up not wanting to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you see any indications? Yeah, did you see any indications? And I know like as a high school student I wouldn't really pick up on anything like this, but did you see any indication, like when you were in school, that things might be changing from what they were to what they are now?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, no, no, yeah, I do.
Speaker 3:I just remember one time in junior high there was a chalkboard and a certain part was for today's assignment. Yeah. And I remember this one boy going up there and laughing and he'd be telling people laughing and the teacher said what's wrong, said his name and he said what you wrote on the board and her abbreviation for assignment was A-S-S.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:I had no clue what was so funny, yeah, nor did probably most of the kids, but he did, he was the one that was revealing it. He had to go to the president's office. And so I'm thinking, well, there is some meanness out there. People see things different than me, but as far as the teachers, I mean, you may have thought they were real mean and hard on you, but then you see them in your church and so how can that sweet lady be so mean in the school? And I thought they were mean because they were firm and made you do your homework and expected you to do right. And, sure enough, if you messed up in school, your parents would know about it, and that was painful too. So you didn't do that, that was an option you didn't want to consider. You got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home, yeah, and wondered how did they know? If that's a small town, small school, maybe, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, today's announcement story there sounds just comparatively just so much more tame than what's going on in the schools now. Going on in the schools now. Do you get an impression today, just culturally, that public school teachers would say overall that things are getting better or worse? What's your impression of where people in education say things are getting?
Speaker 3:The main thing I hear is it's getting harder. It's getting harder. Keep their attention Right, Keep their respect. And it's hard to get administration to support teachers. Yeah, there's a lady in my class this morning who's I think she's a retired teacher and she acknowledged that it was getting worse as she got older. The expectation of kids has been lowered, I think the standard. It seems like a matter of respect. You don't respect your teacher, you're not going to feel obligated. Parents don't make you do it, then the school is not going to make you do it.
Speaker 3:So I hear bad stories but I do hear some good ones, but it's few and far between. Yeah, but I think it's more our culture, the way we're getting not only in school. It's manifested in schools but it's manifested in other places with police officers. You see these videos of people being defiant to a police officer and I would have never thought to do that. Never in my wildest dreams would I have done that. So it's a culture that you're raised in the family unit. If it's not doing it, they're not learning the proper culture in the family.
Speaker 2:They're not going to learn it at school or wherever else they go yeah, yeah, um, I've I've kind of uh convinced that the church has the ability, like God's people have the ability, to change culture for the better, and in the past that has proven true. And public education is one of those areas that has always seemed like it wasn't on the top priority for a lot of God's people in the American church today, just generally speaking, and I feel like if there was a sense that they had that they might have a sense of urgency. If they were informed more, I guess, as to what was going on in the public schools, maybe there would be a sense of urgency to make it a priority and to you know, at least have more discussions about it. Is there anything that you think the church needs to know about public schools or where that culture is right now? Or what's your take on that is right now? Or, um, what's your take on that?
Speaker 3:uh, it's that sense of urgency I don't see in churches now. It's just you go and you hear a good lesson and you feel good about yourself, and there's no call to purity or holiness and we reflect and see that I am not being a holy person. There's no urgency I need to change and that's manifested in all aspects of our culture, not only just school but in worship services. It's one thing to bow down in worship, but it's another thing to get up and now walk with God in your life, do what he says. Martha and I were just talking. We just don't seem to be as interested in studying scripture like we used to. It's more about topical studies and relativism. But it's that story of when the Messiah first went to Capernaum and he crossed over the sea to the other side. He went into the area of the Decapolis, which is pagan culture, and they don't do that, they don't even talk about it, much less go over there. But he took a boat over there and when he got off the boat there was a man. It was filled with all those unclean spirits which was scary thing and he cast out the spirits and put them in the pigs and they ran into the sea. Well, the herdsmen that were there saw this. They went back to town, told the townspeople and they all came back out to see him. And the man told him what? And he was sitting there with his clothes on eating food in his right mind totally uh person. When they came back, they asked him. They asked him, no, they told him, they implored him to leave the region, to leave. Their response in seeing such a magnificent miracle was get out of here. Yeah, the messiah was going to a gentile area. Pagan gods, pagan cultures did a wonderful miracle and they said get out of here. They were afraid. And then the guy said let me go with you, let me get in the boat with you. Now I want you to stay here, tell him what the Lord has done for you. So he didn't let him get on the boat. He'd send him back to the community to tell what the Lord had done.
Speaker 3:And a hundred years later there was a large number of churches and a cathedral was there which the bishop had to have as a home. It was his home cathedral, so his very ministry caused an effect. But when you go to, I think they're gonna say get out, we're scared, they're gonna hate you. So if you're going to be like the Messiah and Isaiah prophesied about that you're gonna go into the land of Zebulun and you're gonna be a light darkness. Well, he was a major light that came into that darkness, went over the chaos of water, went into the land. He became a light and now we can be a light to go into darkness.
Speaker 3:And I don't think people see it that way. They don't see the urgency need to do that, whether it's in a friendly gathering, a restaurant, your work at school. Do you really feel urgency to be alive or are you just going to say, well, they have a right to live the way they want to? I'm not a judge. I can't condemn, and you're right, we don't condemn, but we do teach the pattern. This is what a moral life looks like and then be able to give an answer for ourselves and a lot of people. We can't always give an answer for ourselves and a lot of people. We can't always give an answer when we're confronted. So I believe His Spirit still helps us to do that very much in life today. But we are complacent and I don't know about our jobs so much.
Speaker 3:I did see some of that. I was in the healthcare profession. I think most people did because they really wanted to be a help with healing as a ministry. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure if you want to teach, you feel like you want to change the direction of a child and be a light to them. And it's hard when the whole culture it's either Hashem or it's for the adversary. It's one or the other. You can't be in between. And if it's all about the adversary, you're fighting an uproar battle every day. But that's what he's promised. He didn't say we'd have it easy, he just said he'd be with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you glorify when you're persecuted for his name yeah yeah, I, of course, with the podcast being called Make Schools Christian Again, and you know, in support of just that. You know, making things explicitly Christian in the classroom and having lessons be God-centered and having the entire institution itself be identified as Christian. But there is an argument out there from other followers of Jesus who disagree with that, and they would see that the public school—and it's kind of taken me some time to figure out the distinction because I'm just trying to figure everybody's perspective out but there seems to be a difference between, like it's a mission field, like there's the argument that the public schools are a mission field and that's fine, but turning the public schools back into a training ground for followers of Jesus is not what many would support, which is what I'm, of course, advocating for in this particular podcast. But would you agree with that? That's a big distinction, like whether it's a mission field or it's a training ground, and what do you make of that?
Speaker 3:It is a training ground. In education, it is a training ground. Any education is a training ground. I believe one of your podcasts says that he is the center of everything. I like that. Everything you do, he is in the center of it. We are, in essence, ones who are sent shaliyot apostles that were sent because we have been given a message and a mandate from the Lord. So we're going to wherever we are, whether you're a teacher in school, you're a nurse in a hospital, or you're a banker, or you're a person whose job is banking your identity is in him first and then everything else comes off of that identity. Identity is in him first and then everything else comes off of that identity.
Speaker 3:So our education system didn't start out like it is now. I know that when I started coming over, they started making this education as far as biblical education and even learning hebrew in the colleges, teaching hebrew and it was not only learning english and math, but learning how to be, live a holy life. They taught that in the schools and it came later where that was taken out, yeah, and it's progressively gotten further and further away. So as far as being a Christian school, like we do have schools that are called Christian schools now that people can go to or you can teach your kids at home.
Speaker 3:But why should we accept our culture be our, my culture, my culture is the Lord's culture, so I want to be about His business, like we talked about earlier. If it's just one-on-one, that's where I am. But if you feel a greater calling to be a larger voice, he's putting that on your heart then you should be going for that. To make your school that way, to make your district that way, so we're to be alive and alive is going to cast out darkness. And if your culture is one of darkness, which I think the adversary is making it more and more, which is his role the Lord's going to use us to bring light into schools.
Speaker 2:Everybody seems to agree that they're secular. I don't think anybody disagrees with that that way. The second would be that they're secular and they shouldn't be, but there's nothing really we can do about it and we really just kind of need to leave it alone because, you know, it's just kind of an impossible thing to pursue. And then the third one would be my perspective that the public schools are secular but they should be made Christian, like they used to be, because they were explicitly Christian in the past. Which one of those do you think is the most biblical, dr?
Speaker 3:Well, I think one of the most biblical words is teshuvah, which means to repent, and that word repent doesn't mean a change of mind. It means stop going this direction, turn around and come back and go this direction. So we have started going the wrong direction in our government, in our schools, and so we should repent, get on our knees, repent and turn around and come back and go the right direction. And that involves our educational system from the top down, now, from the bottom up, wherever your position is. Yeah, so, uh, I think everything we ought to do. If you say hospitals have gotten so sick and they're just all that in it for the money and they're not doing right and they're treating people poorly, then you need to be out changing the hospitals to make it a healthy environment.
Speaker 3:And I don't think well, let's see. I think there are a lot of unhealthy things going on in schools today, both for students and teachers. And yeah, well, who would kick against a prick? You know, it's just a big movement, we can't change it. Well, that's crazy. We are the ones that are the changing angels. We are to bring it back to the Lord. Everything you do is to bring back to Him, if we're really disciples. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think one of the things that I guess kind of comes up in conversation is that, well, you know how are we going to do that. What would that look like specifically? You know, are you going to make a school district? You know Baptist or Presbyterian or Methodist, or you know how are we going to do that? And it's a fair question and it's an important question, and I think it's a question that has to be asked and answered. And I think that that conflict, which is what would happen, that would be a conflict as to how to do that. That's a better conflict to be engaging than are we going to allow kids to go in this certain bathroom or not. Would you agree?
Speaker 3:I think one. If you identify the problem, okay, this is a problem, this is what's going wrong. That's not enough. Now, what are you going to do to fix it? What are the solutions? So, if you're on that road to, these are the solutions and how we fix it. How do we go about doing that? That's a dilemma, not that it's a problem. I think we can all agree. Things have gotten worse. Now how do we resolve it?
Speaker 3:And there will be some people who say, well, you can't, it's just too hard, that's just the way you came. It's just too hard, that's just the way the world is today. There's no change in the world. No, we are world changers and the Lord can do it if he has a mind to. He's just looking for faithful and available disciples to do it. So we are ones to make the change. And how do you do it? And to me it's one-on-one. Whatever your immediate world is your context, you do, but for you, I think you have a greater calling to make the system repent and come back. And how do you do that? That's the better question, not should we do it, it's how do we do it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I'm not skilled in that. I know that one-on-one I can do my best. You, I think, have a greater call to change it. You will search out that matter. You've done a lot of research already on things and you're discovering things about it. How do you go about changing it and convicting people that it does need to be changed and can be yeah, because you can't say it can't be done? I think the Lord would be glad for that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just kind of occurred to me, you know about a year or so ago that the public schools were explicitly Christian at one point and actually— yeah, In the United States. Yes in the United States, yeah, yeah In Europe too. I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they were in Europe also and I think that the research that I've gotten into has pointed out that, like from 1647, when this Old Deluder Satan Act was enacted, the first public school was created to teach students the Bible so they wouldn't be tricked by the enemy. That tradition carried on for over 240 years, well into the 20th century, and they would have like what they called like the New England Primer back then, especially in the Boston area, and that was a grammar book, a speller, that was explicitly Christian and they would teach, you know, a, b and C with you know Adam Bethel, and you know it was explicitly Christian examples. And I've found that America well before. I say that it wasn't until 1963 that the Bible was actually outlawed from public schools on a federal level, from the Supreme Court and the ruling there I think it was, what was it called Abington versus Shemp, what was it called Abington versus Shemp? And that 1963 ruling said that the reason that they gave for outlawing the Bible in the public schools was it said, and I'm just reading this quote here from that ruling. It says if portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could be, and had been, psychologically harmful to the student. So the reasoning behind the Bible no longer being taught after what is it? 316 years from that 1647 point, was because it would cause psychological damage to the students hearing it was because it would cause psychological damage to the students hearing it. And I read that, and I had to read it multiple times. I couldn't believe that that was really the argument that the Supreme Court was using for why we got the Bible-based public school system to now.
Speaker 2:From 1963 to today, that's 62 years, so the American public schools have been explicitly Christian almost five times longer than they've been secular. And that's just very surprising to me because, again, it's all it's. I mean, I'm in the same boat here, like this is all like new. This is all new information to me, and I have been doing this this whole time for, you know, 20 years now, thinking that, well, the public schools have just always been secular and it feels like there is a past, a reality, an inheritance that was stolen from our culture and we don't even know that. And that's kind of what I'm trying to bring awareness to, that I mean 316 years as one thing and then 62 as another, that's so that says a lot, I think, and you know, whenever I think of myself and like what I have been doing in the public school classroom, from just a strict academic perspective, I'm not including God at the center of my lessons. You know, I'm not advocating for that in the classroom.
Speaker 2:You know, these 20 years I've been doing it and I'm just kind of doing the math in my head and I'm kind of putting these pieces together and so I'm asking the question like, okay, does God want the Bible in the public schools? Does God want the public schools to be explicitly Christian? And I think the answer has to be yes, because everything belongs to him. And when you ask, does the enemy want that? And the enemy, of course, that answer would be no. So I, you know, just putting the pieces together, like I've been operating from a foundation of doing what the enemy wants. I would say that that's what I've, you know, been saying yes to. You know, maybe not even knowingly, but like I think that the public schools should, everything should, be centered around Jesus. And I don't know, I mean, I think that's a very difficult thing to say. I think a lot of people, you know, don't want to say that that's what we're doing.
Speaker 3:But when we teach, let's say science without God, aren't we doing what the enemy wants. I think there are basically three major tensions in this world. One is what the father is drawing, what the adversary is drawing and, in our own flesh, what we want. And we wrestle with those three tensions. I know that the adversary has come to steal, kill and destroy. So anything that does one of those three things is obviously not from the Father. I think in 1963, that ruling that said it would be psychologically damaging the Bible. I don't think the Lord would say that about his scriptures. So it must be from the adversary. And if we can recognize where is the source for all this and sometimes it's not flesh and blood but it's principalities and powers that we're wrestling with and his attempt, if we can just get one generation removed, then I think he's won the battle. Yeah.
Speaker 3:If they don't recognize these things. People I mean they ask young people about World War II or the Vietnam War and they don't have these things. People I mean they ask young people about World War II or the Vietnam War and they don't have a clue where it was or any concept of the history of it. And I'm not so much as church theology or Christianity, I am into following the Lord. Learn what his ways are, what makes him happy, what's pleasing to him. So I don't think we ought to teach church doctrine. Learn what his ways are, what makes him happy, what's pleasing to him. So I don't think we ought to teach church doctrine. And hopefully we'll never come to that. It's just. This is healthy life, the daily walk. Kids can choose, but the foundation is we're about teaching life and life more abundantly.
Speaker 3:And I'm sure there'll always be someone who'll disagree and say oh no, you're judging, you're doing this, you're doing that and the messenger has a lot to do with it. So we need to keep constant prayer that you do it in a way that's pleasing to the Lord. But we've always in, whatever we do, it's lifting him up and he will give the increase or he will give the conviction he sends a spirit to convict the world in regards to sin and righteousness and judgment to come, but he uses us to help convict people. So if it's not building back or returning to his kingdom, it's not from him, or it's man's own desire, his flesh for power, money, control, all these other things. And I think the source of that is even the adversary. Those are the two major tensions in this world. If we can recognize it's either from him or from the adversary, then we're ahead of the game, then we have the power and authority to speak to them. But you're right.
Speaker 3:I think what you're seeing is a valid point, then we have the power and authority to speak to them. Yeah, but you're right, I think what you're seeing is a valid point, which is now how do we deal with it? How do we go about the next step and this step and this step? Because, no matter what you do, you're going to offend and you're going to draw people closer. Both things can happen at once. Yeah, so you just be obedient to the Lord. Yeah, people closer. No things can happen at once, so you just be obedient to the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, I think you would probably agree that the problems in public schools are spiritual, just like the problems in government are spiritual, and the problems everywhere are spiritual. So then, is it possible to solve a spiritual problem with a secular solution?
Speaker 3:No, never do it If you throw more money at it or more programs not going to do it. Yeah, that power is in the name of the Lord, not your ability or your will or your wisdom.
Speaker 3:He can use our foolishness to accomplish His will. Number one we just need to make sure what His will is and be in agreement with that. And I don't think it's His will that we be divided in all these different churches. So that's not His will. It's not His will that we lead His ways or His path. That's not His will. It's not His will that we lead His ways or His path. That's not His will. So yeah. Legal government has to be centered on Him. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So thinking about the that you know 316 years of public schools in America being Christian and when I say Christian, I mean I don't mean, like you know, forcing someone to become a follower of Jesus or they get punished, seeing someone to become a follower of Jesus or they get punished. I'm talking about, you know, christians creating a culture in their public schools where the Bible is taught as truth, just as you would teach two plus two equals four. I think Christians would all agree that, you know. I mean, maybe they won't, I don't know, that's definitely a possibility, but that 2 plus 2 equals 4 is just as true as the Bible being true. And so what I'm thinking about, that you know, for centuries our country has done that, and now I'm thinking you know that 60-ish years that it has been secular.
Speaker 2:So I kind of take that information and I think about what God is doing in his word from Genesis to Revelation, and he is what I would call biblical conquest and he's conquering territory. He's moving from he's conquering territory in order to restore his people and his creation, from Abraham, individual, family, tribe, nation, and then the world through his people, through his people. That sounds like global conquest to me. And whenever I think about how we spent these centuries as a Christian public school system and now we're not. For roughly 60 years, it sounds like we've given over territory to darkness and that biblical conquest is not something that we are culturally saying yes to, and it sounds like we're just sort of giving over territory to the enemy. When I'm holding those two thoughts in my head at the same time, I mean, would you agree with that? Do you agree with the idea of biblical conquest, and what do you make of that?
Speaker 3:I think it's a very scriptural concept that there are boundaries that he has established, and he has established angels over certain principal areas and countries. In act 17 he talks about. He has established all these boundaries and he changes them so that we may seek him and find him, although he's not far from us. So the whole goal is is to seek him and in seeking him, we reclaim an area which you can call conquest. Some people get scared about that. So you're wanting to fight? No, you're reclaiming his boundaries in that you might find him. So the goal really is to find him, and he wants this world to be saved. That's his will.
Speaker 3:But the adversary is the prince of this world. He's going to do everything he can. He's in conquest. He's not in conquest, he's in battle, constantly trying to increase his boundaries. So why would we allow that to happen when we have the king of all kings on our side, the warrior of all warriors, all kings on our side, the warrior of all warriors, his son on our side? So we well, I think, when they win the problem, saying they were already, they won it before they got there. The lord had promised it to them, but they still had to fight, but they still had to fight. Yeah. So we're in a battle and it's a spiritual battle. We've been given armor for that battle. If it's not a conquest, do you think he's going to punish you when you see him face to face and say, well, you didn't win Redwater for me, you didn't win Dallas for me. I don't think he's going to say that If we're just available and try to walk out, what he gives us to do, he will give the increase or not give the increase. We're just faithful to what we believe he tells us to do. Your whole life is a battle.
Speaker 3:Now you will see, you'll get to experience some conquest, but that doesn't mean it's not valid that you don't. Nor does it mean I don't have to participate because I can't do anything. What can I do now? That's not what we're called to be. Yeah, humility with strength, that's not being that people run all over. Humility with strength, that's not being that people run all over you. That's being strong but humble. It's what it is about it. There's going to be winners and losers. I hope the adversary loses every time. He will eventually for sure. During this interim season that we're in, we want to claim more territory for him, your house, your family, your friends, your family that you worship with, because he will be very active in your congregant too, when you win over many people, and you'll see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I know that the word conquest kind of is problematic for some ears. I don't know what else to call it. It's just what it seems like is going on when I look at—.
Speaker 3:That's a scriptural principle. So, yeah, it is what it is. I mean we can't be offended by everything, Right, right, I mean we will and people will be, but we shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, why do you think that idea of biblical conquest, you know, or whatever it needs to be called? Why do you think that that's not? At least in my experience, I haven't heard that from the pulpit or from a Bible class, or I mean really in not really many places at all and not really many places at all. So why do?
Speaker 3:you think that that's not a theme that is talked about much? That's a good question. I think we as human beings don't like conflict, yeah, and we want things just to keep going as they are and what's comfortable for me. I don't want to be taken out of my comfort range, and I think you said that he came to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, which is true. But we, fleshly, like I, don't like tension. I want to have everything taken care of and have no problems.
Speaker 3:But if we're in the wilderness, which we are, there's going to be conflict. This is how we handle it. It's important. As a believer, you know there's going to be tension. So now, how do we handle it as godly people? And that's why Christian education is important to teach young men and women how to handle the conflict to this earth. And you can learn math, you can learn English, but why? What's the whole point? It doesn't bring you closer to healing. So I think all that we do should be with him, in the very center of the purpose, the reason for it? Because someday we're going to see him face to face. You're going to find out. The years start going pretty fast, yeah. What do I have left to do? You just want to be more and more in his presence. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I'm very, you know, open to other perspectives and you know where this idea could be, you know, adjusted, or you know, maybe I'm not seeing something. I'm very open to those possibilities. I of course think I'm right in what it is that I'm not seeing something. I'm very open to those possibilities. I of course think I'm right in what it is that I'm reading out of Scripture. But I look at the public school situation and I see how a lot of these generational cycles are not stopping. They're not being changed in any way.
Speaker 2:Once the kids graduate, you know, they go out and then these generational cycles that they've been raised with continue. And I think you know a lot of societal problems that we run into are because of that. And I think everybody agrees that it's kind of the home situation, why we are where we are, and so my thought is that we should then, in the public schools, teach how to be husbands and fathers from a biblical perspective, how to be wives and mothers from a biblical perspective, so that these generational cycles can stop and so that we can begin to heal as a society, as a country. And I know that's very radical sounding to a lot of people, I know that's very even off-putting to a lot of people, but I guess my question is and I don't know where you're at on that but how do we solve the issues that we're dealing with today, the issue that we're dealing with today, if we don't engage on that level? How to be a biblical father, how to be a biblical husband, wife and mother?
Speaker 3:It has to be a desire to have something before you actually start working towards it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I'm not sure that's a motivating factor today. People just aren't. It appears to me to be motivated to make the effort to know what his will is, and we just blindly accept what one man might tell us a preacher or whatever. We just accept that. But do you search out a matter for yourself? Yeah, and until that happens, I mean as a nation, we just need to get on our knees and repent and ask for forgiveness, and that's, I think, the pattern throughout the prophets. Yeah, even though they had wicked leadership, the nation can repent and ask for forgiveness, and prayer, prayer is the greatest weapon in spiritual warfare, I think.
Speaker 3:So I will be a spiritual warrior for you in this ministry to try to help out with that. As far as being strong legs and arms, it may not be, and I can sure intercede on behalf, and I think this is a very scriptural mandate. Is that we and I'm not sure about how you just have it? Well, in high school school we didn't, but in college we did. We had Bible classes you could take and it was offered plenty of them available. How?
Speaker 3:to be a Christian marriage and Godly man. But I think as an example, that's better than sometimes what you say. The way you walk, when they see how you treat Bethel, how you treat William, how you treat other women and other men, that speaks volumes too for seeing you walk out what is a Godly way. It would be great if they had peers that were strong enough that could walk it out, could be an example, because we can watch what our friends are doing as much as we do our teachers. So you get a guy that's a strong leader. He'll make a difference with the kids. Yeah, a strong leader in the pulpit, strong shepherd for his sheep and he's actually on the wall protecting the sheep. I think the Lord will honor that. It's a struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, aware of how improbable it seems. You know the idea that making schools Christian again happening is, you know, from a worldly perspective, very improbable. And when you look at you know the way things are now. It seems, of course, I mean there's no way to do that, it's just not. It seems very much impossible. But when I look at my authority of God's Word, it's almost I mean almost everything in his word is improbable. I mean there's something that I'm almost hard-pressed to think of, anything that's not probable.
Speaker 2:You know, from Abraham looking up at the stars and being told that his descendants will be like that, and I'm sure he was thinking as just this one man, like how is this going to happen? How is that? That's not even possible. Like, what are we talking about here? Sarah being pregnant? You know that was, she was too old. And how is that probable? And just example after example after example.
Speaker 2:But even you know, and even maybe more miraculously, you know, when Jesus took these 12 disciples, just 12 guys, just 12 dudes. You know they're not kings, they're not rulers, they're just common men. They'll fit in your living room, you know. And he told them, these 12 guys, now I want you to go conquer the entire world, Go make the entire world Christian. And they did it. They did it. Christianity is the most popular religion in the world and that started, you know, way back with, you know back in the garden, really. You know Genesis 3. But you know Jesus telling the disciples to do that. It seemed highly improbable and yet you know it happened. And I just really believe in God being not a God of probability but of certainty, and that he's faithful. His people, you know, step out in faith and in obedience to him, that he will bless those efforts. And I don't know, I don't know, I don't know really.
Speaker 3:It sounds to me like you're wanting to walk by faith instead of by what your eyes see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. So yeah, what we were called to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he says he can do it. That's faith. What you don't think can happen, what you don't understand he can do. I mean, in Colossians it talks about he holds everything together. By his word, all the elements are held together. They could melt away the next instant if he decided to do it. Yeah, they could melt away the next instant if he decided to do it. Yeah, and we're worried about one more thing on this earth. He can do that. So do you have faith that he can do it Absolutely?
Speaker 3:And sometimes it's hard, but I'm going to walk by faith and not by sight, because if I just walked by everything I saw, I would really get depressed. People say bad things, prices are going up. I don't care, I'm walking, getting depressed. People say bad things, prices are going up. I don't care, I'm walking my feet. I believe in the one that created and holds it together. He says he can do it, but he doesn't want a response from us. He has to love him and love each other. And if your motivation is because you love these kids and you love the system, I don't think you can go wrong. You get a lot of pushback, but you just have to keep searching it out and say how do we figure this out? How can we do it? How can we do it? That's why it's good to talk with experts not me, but with experts in the field that can give you good suggestions on how to, step by step, get it back. Yeah.
Speaker 3:If you're convicted from Hashem, then you're good to go Until he closes that door. I mean, he may close the door, but I think this is a physical mandate right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think happens culturally in our country if we don't make schools Christian again?
Speaker 3:We're going to raise another generation of non-spiritual people who will not allow glory. They'll just get further and further away. But if you're a student of history you know it is cyclical. Every bad king that came there was always a return after that. So I'm hoping that maybe this is a time to return In my generation. I can see it, but I know it's cyclical. People will come back. I'm going to die Without you, without you.