Richmond is Sober-Curious: How Jody Sidle Reimagined Drinking Culture with Point 5 #020

Visit Point 5 at 3435 West Cary St, Richmond, VA

point5rva.com

In this guest interview, we sit down with Jody Sidle — founder and driving force behind Point 5 in Carytown (Richmond, VA) — to talk about the sober-curious wave reshaping how Richmond goes out. 

2 books we mentioned in conversation:

• Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced, and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization: ⁠https://amzn.to/48XY5pU⁠

• Alcohol Explained by William Porter: ⁠https://amzn.to/3JIHuMu

Point 5 is Richmond’s first non-alcoholic bottle shop located right here in Carytown. Driven by her own journey into an alcohol-free lifestyle, Jody launched Point 5 to create an inviting space for everyone: including those who are sober, sober-curious, or simply interested in discovering high-quality alternative and unique beverages. 

At Point 5, Jody and Lewis; Point 5’s Manager - curate a smart selection of non-alcoholic spirits, functional and nootropic drinks, canned beers and wines, as well as gluten-free and dairy-free options that reflect modern taste and lifestyle.  

Their vision extends beyond retail: They believe that the ritual of gathering, pouring a drink, and being social doesn’t have to be defined by alcohol. Their mission with Point 5 is to normalize alternative drinking culture, encourage inclusivity, and support expanded choice within Richmond’s diverse community.

Jody opens up about quitting alcohol and rebuilding the nighttime ritual without the hangover, then walks us through real NA options with bite and “mouthfeel” that still feel like an adult drink (Amethyst, Little Saints, reishi/lion’s mane, and nootropic/adaptogen–driven beverages, and more).    

We get tactical: why bars and restaurants should stock serious NA programs (margins, tips, inclusivity), how this changes spend, and what’s happening inside corporate/events where mid-day “old fashioneds” are now zero-proof—and everyone can drive home.    

Jody also previews Point 5’s growth: two franchises in New Jersey, Williamsburg on deck, and how she protects local radius so every franchise owner wins. We close with an open invitation to explore — not as an identity or lifetime pledge, but as a low-pressure experiment you can start today.

And if you’re NA-curious, try asking for Amethyst or Little Saints next time you’re out — Richmond’s already making room at the bar.  

Transcript

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Hi everyone, welcome back to the Vera House podcast. Today's guest is Jodi Sidle. She is the founder and driving force behind Point5, which is Richmond's first non-alcoholic bottle shop located right here in Carytown. Driven by her own journey into an alcohol-free lifestyle, Jodi launched Point5 to create an inviting space for everyone, including those who are sober, sober-curious, or simply interested in discovering high-quality alternative and unique beverages. At Point5, Jodi and Lewis, which is Point5's manager, curate a smart selection of non-alcoholic spirits, functional and nootropic drinks, canned beers and wines, as well as gluten-free and dairy-free options that reflect modern taste and lifestyle. Their vision extends beyond retail. They believe that the ritual of gathering, pouring a drink, and being social doesn't have to be defined by alcohol. Their mission with Point5 is to normalize alternative drinking culture, encourage inclusivity, and support expanded choice within Richmond's diverse community. So, hi Jodi. Hello. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks now. Oh, good. And here we are. And I think we'll start with just kind of talking about how we met. Okay. And giving a little anecdote about myself, you know, I had considered quitting drinking for off and on for probably two or three years. And it was around that time where our mutual friend, my friend Jackson Scott, he came into your shop, he brought me along with him, and I walked into your shop and I was like, this is awesome. You know, and not only because of my maybe fascination with the idea of quitting drinking, but also because of a lot of the other things that I found in your shop, which is like nootropic drinks and things like that. So, when I came in there, I was just blown away by your shop and I was so excited about what you're doing. And I'm so happy that now you're here and we get to talk about this. Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here too. So, let's start with the beginning. If you could give us a little bit of your background, right? So, you haven't always lived here. You moved here at some point. Right. So, what brought you here to the States? So, the short version is my parents, my dad's American, my mom's English. They raised my sisters and I in the UK. And then they wanted to come back here to spend more time with the American side of the family. So, my parents came back. Actually, my oldest sister came back first in like 91, maybe. And then my parents came back and then my other sister and her husband came over. And so, it was just me and my son in England and we said we would come for a year. And that was 30 years ago. So, things happen and you end up, you know, time goes on and all of a sudden I've been here 30 years. But yeah. So, the whole family's here. We're all within 20 minutes of each other. And then all my American side of the family are up and down the East Coast. Very cool. Yeah. And so, where did you live before you moved here? So, in a little place called Eastbourne, which is on the South Coast of England, about 60 miles Southeast of London. Very cool. Do you ever go back? Yes, but I haven't been back in about 10 years. So, I am way overdue. Do you miss it? Like, do you think about it often? Oh, yeah. Yeah, very much. And I lived about 30 minutes from London right before I moved here. But yeah, I miss it a lot. Even though I've now been here more of my life than there, I still, like, England is home. Yeah. It's always, England will always be home. But I don't necessarily want to move back there either, but I do love to visit and I miss the walkability. I miss the public transportation. I miss the food. I know a lot of people don't care for English food, but I miss the food and the snacks and the chocolate and things like that. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know because I've surprisingly never been to England. Oh, really? Yeah. I've done a lot of traveling and I've never made it over that way, but I do want to at some point. Did you know that Richmond is named after Richmond, London? I did. Yeah. Of course, you would know that. That makes sense. Well, no, not necessarily, but I did know that. Yeah. I find, like, Richmond history pretty fascinating. And I also didn't know that until a few years ago. Okay. But yeah, very cool. And I mean, I guess speaking of history in general, I think to give people who are listening to this conversation, maybe like a broad perspective before we dive into some of this stuff is to kind of talk a little bit about how ritual gathering has always been done around alcohol. You know, if we think about today, right? Like we drink for a number of reasons, right? Number one is probably first and foremost, I would guess as like a social lubricant in a way, right? Like it's, you know, go to the pub, go to the bar, have a drink, you know, and just to kind of ease this social tension that I think we all probably feel, whether it's in just a friendship dynamic or a dating dynamic or just meeting with colleagues after work. You know, I think we all maybe experience like societal and conversational anxiety and tension a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And we can't deny the fact that alcohol tends to like ease that burden a little bit. For sure. And it does. It makes me curious about like, how long have we been doing this? And it turns out quite a long time. Yeah, yeah. But my understanding of the history of alcohol is that today, alcohol is much stronger than it's ever been, you know, before. Like the concept of having distilled alcohol and these beers that are, you know, 10, 12% and these, you know, like super wines that are 16% alcohol or more, it wasn't always that way. And I read this really great book called Drunk by Edward Slingerland. Oh. And it just goes into like the history of alcohol. And these really strong alcohols compared to history are fairly recent, just within the past couple hundred years, like barely about a hundred years. Interesting. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah, which I thought was really, really interesting. I think it speaks a lot to maybe how we've come to abuse alcohol in some ways without even noticing it. Right. You know, and it's just become a mainstay in our, you know, in our everyday lives, really. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I know for myself, I stumbled across the idea of quitting drinking just with my, you know, the typical like frustrations of being hung over and just like not feeling your best. Yeah, yeah. What was it for you? Because obviously, you know, yes, you've started 0.5, but at some point, I'm sure there was a moment throughout your life or your journey where this concept of, or this idea of quitting drinking crossed your radar as well. So can you kind of like take us to that time in your life where you started thinking about this? Well, to be honest, I found a diary a couple of years ago that I'd written when I was 27, the piece I'd written was when I was 27. And it actually talks about, I'm actually talking about the fact that I feel like I'm drinking too much and that I should consider stopping. And I was 27 a long time ago. So, you know, I obviously had that feeling and knowing in myself, and I've always really tried to pay attention to myself and how I feel and analyze myself and those sorts of things. Like I've always looked into how I'm feeling, but I obviously chose to ignore it a lot of the time too. So fast forward, you know, I stopped drinking during both my pregnancies, had no issues with stopping. It's not like I was drinking every night, but it did become a habit. And I definitely had a, I definitely didn't have a switch off a lot of the time. If I was already tired or stressed out, that was kind of the worst combination if I decided to have a drink, because I would just, you know, it would ease it. And then I just wanted to keep feeling the ease that I had from the drinks. But of course you never get that back. You know, we're always chasing that first feeling. So I'd known for a long time, I guess when it really started to hit me was a little bit before COVID. And then during COVID, I guess it was 2020, 2019, 2020, when I started joining some online communities. One was called One Year No Beer, quite well known. And I started reading, kind of stalking everything, started reading and understanding that I wasn't, my situation wasn't unique. And I think that's part of the thing. We all think our situation is different to everyone else's. So finding that it was similar was a huge thing for me to kind of go, okay, there's lots of people that are my age that have a similar lifestyle. So that's when I started kind of getting that seed of wanting to stop. So during that time I would quit for a month, two months, five months. Just before that time, I had gotten into trouble. I did get a DUI, no one was hurt, which thankfully, and that was also a seed that set that, but I didn't stop after that. You would think I would, but I didn't. For several reasons, even my lawyer said, it's a numbers game. You're not the only one that's ever done this. Everyone's done it, just people don't get caught. So even my lawyer was basically saying, you don't have a problem. Don't worry about it. All my friends were like, oh, Jodie, you just, you're really unlucky. And I bought into that. So all these things that people tell you, and even though I knew that I should, I kind of continued with, yeah, they're right. I don't have a problem. So all of these little pieces, my sister has cirrhosis and has been in and out of rehab. So there were lots of things that had happened that put me into that mindset of thinking, I think there's something better that I should do. And I went and visited a bunch of non-alcoholic bottle shops in New York City and started just seeing what it was all about. And I think that just became, okay, if I'm going to do this, I need to stop once and for all. And I don't know if I answered that question or if I've just got a whole roundabout way of saying it, but yeah, it was a lot of reasons that got me to finally stop. I got through like two holidays from October through January where I didn't drink. And I was like, man, if I can get through that time, I can get through anything. And then, yeah, and then it just finally, I don't know, it felt different. And I wanted to, yeah, I just wanted to stop. I think when the negatives start outweighing the positives, because I've had a lot of fun as a drinker. I'm not going to say it was all horrible. I've had a blast. But when those negatives start outweighing the positives, then you need to consider changes. Yeah, I can completely relate. So you mentioned the holidays. I know that that's particularly a hard time. Like, obviously, it's a great time of year, but it's also a very hard time of year for many people for many different reasons. But of course, you add drinking into the mix and it can make it better or worse. It's sort of a toss up. So you mentioned the holidays. Were the holidays a time for you where you actually made the decision to stop? Or do you remember, because I remember the last drink I had and I was like, all right, I think I'm done. Do you have like a moment or a time where you made that decision? Yes. Yeah. April 29th. Yeah. 2022. Yeah. It was I hadn't had a drink for seven months, six months at that point. And then I went out and I did and I knew right away that that was that was going to be it. Yeah. Yeah. Same exact thing. Yeah. Exact thing. And I think once you once you decide that you should stop or you think that you might have a problem, then when you go out and this is a conversation I had at the shop yesterday, then when you go out and you do over and vibe, you beat yourself up. For me, I beat myself up so much. I would be so angry with myself. And so the longer it would go between drinks, when I did mess up and I would go out and have some, I was just so hard on myself. And so you already felt hung over. And then I would just yeah, I'd just be like, what is wrong with me? Why? This is so silly. And I think, you know, that's just such a waste of life to constantly mad at yourself for doing something that you can stop doing. Yeah. It's not easy. I'm not never going to say it was an easy thing to do. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But you can do it. Yeah. Well, I think it's true for many people who are high achievers, someone such as yourself, like someone who strives very strongly to achieve something and share a message, make an impact, make a difference. Also, with people who just feel deeply, you know, that like they feel emotions very deeply, which is can also lead to a reason for drinking. Definitely. Yeah. And so it's definitely a double edged sword because then after the act is done and you wake up the next day, then yeah, then it's turned back onto yourself where it's like, you know, you are your own harshest critic. Yes. So I know how difficult it is, of course, from my own experience as well. Yeah. And yeah, I relate a lot to what you say, because there'll be times where I just be like, I'm good. I'm good without drinking, go a few months and then, you know, there'd be a celebration or somebody's birthday or something and I have a drink and I would always find myself questioning like, wait, why am I doing this again? You know? And for me personally, that feeling of like the inner critic, it would happen to me during the night of drinking, you know? And so like, it would get to a point where I would go from like, just kind of loose to then I'm drunk. And then once I'm drunk, then I'm like mad at myself for being drunk. Yeah. And yeah, and it's then you wake up the next day, already like, continuing carrying that like regret and self guilt and frustration with yourself into the next day and it throws off your whole week and you carry it into Monday and then it's like, why do I keep doing this? Yeah. So I completely relate. I'm sure many people probably relate to that feeling. I think so too. I think, and it definitely got worse once that seed had been set that I thought I needed to cut back and stop. And I did cut back. I would cut back, but then it would, you know, then I would have a night where it was over the top and I was making deals with myself, like I'm only going to drink if I go out to dinner. So then I was going out to dinner like four times a week, or I'm only going to have a drink if I'm, you know, I've got people coming over if I'm at a party, you know, you start, once you start making those bargaining decisions with yourself, that should be the telltale sign that you know, you have an issue with alcohol, but nobody wants to admit that nobody, it's always the last thing. Like I had, I would have, you know, my stomach issues and I'll go, it's IBS and I, you know, all these things. It was only when I'd been drinking, you know, surprisingly those went away the minute I stopped, you know, so we try and think of all the excuses because it's the last thing we want to cut out because it's everything that society does, evolves around drinking, baby showers, going to see any, any sport. You know, if I went to, if I went to something and there wasn't alcohol served there, I'd be like, how long are we supposed to be here for? This is ridiculous. Why would you go to something and they don't have that? That's terrible decision. You know, who hosted this? I mean, you know, you just, it's involved in everything and it becomes such a habit. It does. And alcohol, like you mentioned the stomach thing, you know, I think people overlook how much alcohol like disrupts like our gut microbiome, you know, which if you think about it on the, it completely makes sense, right? Like we have good bacteria and bad bacteria that runs our whole body. And then you introduce like a sanitizer basically, which is alcohol. And it's like, of course that disrupts like all of your body's functions pretty much, you know? Yeah. It's going to, I mean, you're putting, yeah, I mean, we, yeah, you're putting poison in our bodies. Yeah. But it tastes good and it's, it's made to look really pretty and it can be fun. So that's why, you know, so many people still do it. Absolutely. And you know, the, the funny thing is, you know, us sitting here today, we're slowly becoming not the weird ones, not, you know, like we're not the only ones thinking this way. And I read this study that I thought was very interesting. So as we head into 2026, only 54% of US adults say that they drink alcohol, meaning for potentially the first time ever in known history that we know of by next year, maybe the following year, we'll be able to say that the majority of Americans do not drink, which is kind of crazy. It is. That's mind blowing. You know, so what are your thoughts on this shift? Right? Because obviously I would imagine it's quite fulfilling, I guess, but I mean, the right thing happened for you at the right time. And it's the right momentum for, you know, this country and the rest of the world and people that are also noticing the same thing that you've noticed that I've noticed and that I've felt and that you felt like, what are your thoughts on this kind of shift? And what do you think are the major contributions for people that aren't just us, like stopping drinking? Yeah. Well, firstly, I think it's incredible that the amount of people that now say they're either sober curious or don't drink at all. It's, it is, it's even a few years ago, we would never have had these kind of staggering numbers. When I opened the shop, you know, none of my friends wanted anything to do with the NA stuff. Everyone thought I was nuts. I thought I was for a little while too, and I might be, but it was definitely a, you know, people said, well, what is this, a soda shop? What is it? I don't get it. And people still don't get it when they come in. But the shift I think is, is just a whole combination of things, you know, especially coming out of COVID. So many of us went over the top during COVID because you could, you didn't have anywhere to go. You didn't have anyone you needed to, you know, even companies were doing happy hours via Zoom at three o'clock in the afternoon. So, you know, it became okay. Everyone had, you know, had stuff at home. So I think coming out of that, people knew that they needed to make some changes. And this is just obviously my opinion. I think a younger generation for so many reasons are seeing adaptogens and nootropics like you talked about earlier and all these great ingredients in a drink that tastes good and is good for you. I think a lot of younger people have seen their parents, people of my age that did over-imbibe or did have these other things where everything evolved around drinking and they, they kind of want to stay away from that. I think celebrities getting behind it, you know, you've got some really big celebrities that influence what people think and do. So you see your favorite actor, actress, singer, sports person, you know, you see these people and you go, wow, they've decided to do that. That's really cool. And they're incredibly successful and they have the money to do anything they want. And they're making this choice. You know, that, that's a huge impact. And then you've got the Surgeon General warnings that have come out, you know, that, I mean, we've, we've known just like we all knew smoking was bad for you. And I used to love to smoke when I drank, by the way. So, you know, I knew it was bad for you, you know, but I still did it. And so, you know, we know, we've known for a long time that drinking can cause many problems. But now it's, it's become much more in the press and in studies. And, you know, of course we had a time where it was two drinks are great and red wine is really good for you and all of these things. And it, you know, it, it's just there. So there's always going to be the people that are going to ignore it and drink it. And I have no, I have no judgment for that whatsoever. Everyone should do what they want, but I do think it's incredibly powerful. All of these things coming together to make people go, okay, I have another option. And the, and it, you know, even when I stopped, I would get the roll of the eyes from a bartender. My friends would go, I can't believe you're not drinking. I lost a lot of friends, you know, cause they were drinking buddies and, and people kind of don't want to go out with you when they find out you're not drinking. They think that you just have become a recluse and you're no fun, which is a terrible thing to tell somebody when they're trying to stop drinking, that they're going to be boring. It's like the worst thing you could say. But I know for me, it was, you know, it was three, three and a half years ago, four years ago, people rolled their eyes. You don't get that so much now, you know, you go out and somebody says, do you want a drink? And you say, no, I don't feel like I have to suddenly explain that I didn't hit rock bottom or my rock bottom. And you know, or that I'm on medication or come up with some excuse. Or if the female is, you know, in her twenties, thirties, early forties, we're not going to suddenly go, are you expecting? Cause you decided not to take a drink. You know, we don't have to have a reason except it's just our choice. And I think that's, that's a really beautiful thing because it makes it so much easier for people that have been sober for a very long time. They can now feel like they can go out and not get, not get the abuse of the roll of the eyes or the, you know, why bother just drink? I mean, it's just, yeah, we could just have one, surely. Yes, I absolutely could. I don't want to, but thank you. I completely agree. And maybe it speaks to this truth. The fact that, you know, I am recently sober, you know, like I just reached one year earlier this month. Thank you. That's awesome. And, um, you know, and one year, you know, in the, you know, the big scheme of things is, is fairly recently. And what I can say is like the friction that I've received is very little compared to what you just described. Like I can honestly say that probably the, I would even maybe say the majority of people that know me don't even know that I don't drink because it's so much easier now because I can just go to the bar and be like, do you have an NA beer? And they just give me a beer and I'll have a beer in my hand, such as this one, right? This is an NA beer. And I could drink this and it just looks like I'm drinking a beer and I don't have to talk about it. And nobody even knows, which just makes it, yeah, it makes it easy. It is. It really is. Great. Because part of the reason people will go back to drinking is because they feel uncomfortable is because they feel that they, people don't want them around anymore or they stand out too much. You know, the amount of times that I did sort of try and stop and I would, there were no options and I'll go fine. I'll just, I'll have a glass of wine. I'll have a whatever, you know? So yeah, it's becoming easier for people. And I think that's just a really amazing and great, great thing. There are no, there can be no negatives about this. That's, I think that's one of the things, like if I try and think about a negative from people not drinking or people being able to have options in bars and restaurants, I'm like, there's no negative. There's not many things you can say that about where there isn't some little con to it. I completely agree. I mean, you know, one of the big ones is like financial savings, you know? Like drinks are so expensive and, you know, you go out and you have one and then all of a sudden you have five and then it's like, what's happening? Yeah. And I can say definitely like around 2022, I was digging through my finances and looking at what I was spending on like dining and drinking and nightlife. And I was like, whoa, I should probably stop this. Yeah. Yeah. I would go out, my bill would be, I'd have an appetizer and then like three drinks and yeah. And it would be with tip, you know, you're talking 60, 70, 80 bucks and I'd be like, man, all I had to eat was an appetizer. It's really sad. Yeah. It's definitely, and I know people talk about the NA drinks. They are, they can be pricey to, you know, to buy them. And when people are making them in restaurants and bars and stuff, but there, you know, there's a reason behind that. The ingredients that are going into these NA drinks are really great ingredients that are good for you. You would buy as a supplement and supplements aren't cheap either. So you're actually putting something good. So I think that's the other part. People tend to think you're missing out on something when you have an non-alcoholic drink. Um, but you're not, you're getting the complexity and the flavor. The only thing you're missing out on is, is getting a buzz. So if you're honest with yourself and you know, that's why you drink is to feel that way, then yes, these drinks you're not, you are going to miss out on that. Um, but everything else that, that comes with it, you're not missing out and you're actually getting really healthy, you know, somewhat better for you, um, ingredients. I, it's one of the things that I feel so strongly about, like in this world is because like, you know, even some of these drinks, like these are supplements and things that I was taking previously, right. You have like Rhode Island, even some of these have like lion's mane and L-theanine and stuff. And, you know, if you look into anybody who's trying to optimize their mind and their brain and their focus and their, you know, their effectiveness as a human, they've probably heard of a lot of these things already, you know? And if you go to the farmer's market and you buy, you know, lion's mane mushrooms, yeah, they're not cheap either, you know? Um, and yeah, so I, I completely agree. And I would say that that is one of the, maybe not like misconceptions, but just maybe one of the things that people don't quite grasp about, like, well, what is an NA drink, you know? Cause I think maybe someone who's never walked into your shop before, they think of an NA drink as like a Shirley Temple at the bar, you know? It's like, yeah, it's, it's totally different. Which you can't charge $10 for, or should not. Um, yeah, it's, it's the ingredients, you know, a lot of it is still small batch. I know that it's becoming more, you know, the distributors have more access to these drinks. Um, I was, I, I will admit, I was hoping that some of them would go down a little bit in price once they're being more mass produced. We're not quite there yet. Um, but yeah, the, the botanicals and, and adaptions and eutropics and, uh, the lion's mane, the cordyceps, you know, the mushrooms that go into it, the ashwagandha, these are all pieces that are expensive. Plus a lot of them are made with the alcohol when it comes to the wines, you know, they are made with the alcohol. So a lot of wine is wasted in that, the alcoholic version, um, because they're getting rid of that to make the non-alcoholic, but that's what makes the NA wine tastes so good. So, um, there's a lot of reasons that the expense is there. Um, and, you know, we, we want to make it as accessible for people as we can. So I know from the shop perspective, if one of our distributors can give us a better deal, we'll end up reducing the price in the shop so that we can pass that savings on. Um, because the whole point of my shop, when I, when I started it, there was, sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. Um, there were three things that, that really came to mind. One was that I wanted it to be accessible for everybody on every budget because it, it is not a lot of wellness and a lot of health stuff ends up being expensive and targeting the more affluent people. And I, that really bothers me, um, because these things should be affordable for everybody and people that don't have as much money and are in different situations need those benefits and the wellness and the self-care and all of that, even more in my opinion. So that was one thing I wanted to make things affordable. We also have everything in singles because I was ordering everything in bulk to save on shipping before I opened the shop. And I didn't like half the stuff and I just threw it away. Nobody wanted my non-alcoholic stuff. They were like, whatever. So we, we made that. And then the other part is having people taste things so they can walk away knowing I know they've got something they like that they've bought and it's a good purchase. So again, I was ordering all these things that went down the drain. Um, so, you know, accessibility and pricing and all of that is just really important to us. And I, I really do hope that the pricing can kind of plateau now. And, you know, we are hit with tariffs. Uh, one particular brand that I was buying has gone up $10 per bottle for me to purchase. Yeah. You know, I can't, that means I've got to put it on for 40 something dollars and, and, you know, just not doing that. So, you know, there's a lot of things that are happening that are, that cause those pricing and it, and, you know, it's not all positive moving forward, unfortunately. Yeah. I would imagine it's, it's super frustrating. And I mean, our most valuable, regardless of any of that, not that it's, not that it's not important. Of course it absolutely is, but our health is like the most important thing. So if you're going to spend money on anything, it would be your health. Yeah. It's something that's gonna, yeah, exactly. That's good for you. Um, or better for you than other options maybe. Um, and yes, that's, that's what we really, that's what we, that's what we need to focus on. Um, yeah. So I think a lot of people did quit. I will say, and I don't want to make anything political, but I will say that, you know, with the way things are, I do know people that have gone back to drinking, who've been sober just because the world has got a lot of things going on. Um, and I, I guess it, and I understand it, but I also want to go, it doesn't, it's not going to make it any better. It's only going to make you feel worse. Um, but you know, everyone's got to do what they want to do. Yeah. And in many ways, like, you know, sure it's societal, it's political, but at the core of it, I think it's, it's more of like a spiritual thing in a weird way. Right. Because I think it's a worthy pursuit to not numb yourself to the thing, the difficult things happening around you, right? Like it's, it's, there's always going to be difficult things in life, you know, and sometimes they're not within your control. And if our immediate instinct is to numb ourselves and try to ignore it and try to avoid it rather than, and this is why I say spiritual in a way saying, okay, like life is going to hand me difficult moments and things that are hard for me to process and things that maybe feel unfair at times and things that bring a lot of adversity. Am I just going to try to take shortcuts and avoid these things for the rest of my life? Or am I going to say, okay, like this is part of our experience, you know? And so, yeah, not to get too woo-woo with it, but I do think that, you know, all humans love substances, right? We love like chaos and craziness and we like getting drunk and we like having fun and we like doing all that stuff. And I think it'll always be a part of who we are. But that means that we're the only ones that can like mitigate that and decide to what level is that appropriate or not, you know? So, speaking of which, so when you were a drinker, what were your like go-to drinks, like go-to cocktails or drinks or wines or something? Well, it changed through my age, you know, from being a teenager and drinking probably vodka tonics or something to in my 20s. Well, I moved here in my 20s and everyone was just drinking basically Bud Light, which to me, it was like water. My sisters and I, I mean, people thought we had issues then because we could just down those things. We were used to much stronger beer in the UK. So, anyway, but then I guess my favorite drinks as I got more into adulthood, I loved old fashions. I loved bourbon, bourbon in general. And then a really full-bodied red wine. They were my like go-to things. But once I had a little bit more money, I guess, in my pocket to be able to, you know, I could afford to have those drinks. Yeah, those are two of the more pricey ones, right? They are. And they don't mix well together either in the same evening. That's probably one of my problems. But yes, what about yours? What were your drinks? Yeah, I was very similar to where like, I'm fortunate to have like a very strong stomach. I would just drink all kinds of different things like all in one night. But if I had to pick like my favorites, I definitely love like a bold, like dry red wine. I did like bourbon and scotch. But my go-to if I was out drinking would either just be like a beer or a gin and tonic. Oh, really? Yeah, like gin. And but the problem is, you know, drink one and then drink another one. And then depending on where you go, you drink one and I'm like, wow, I'm drunk. Like, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. Some places have a heavy pour. Yeah. I was a bartender once back in England and I was a heavy pourer. Yeah. So people always, yeah. Which I loved. In fact, as a drinker, I would be if I went somewhere and they gave me a small pour or even on my wine, I'd be like, uh, excuse me. I mean, I was that person. Five years ago, if somebody had said about a non-alcoholic bottle shot, honestly, I would have laughed. I would be like, what the hell? Who would do that? I mean, I was that person. So I really appreciate and get it when people come to me with that, you know, because that was me. Yeah. You know, I just made a huge, huge change in everything. But it's what I needed to do, but it's not what everyone needs to do. And the majority of our shoppers aren't all or nothing. You know, we obviously have people in sobriety and I can tell them, you know, this is a complete zero. Cause that, that trace is a mental thing for a lot of people, people in there, especially during pregnancy. And especially in that first trimester, they want to know that it's completely zero and people in sobriety. Um, that's very important to many, many of them. So we can, we can give them exactly. We know what is zero. Um, but yeah, a lot of people can moderate. A lot of people can't my, my family, my mom, my sister, um, I have two sisters. One has been in and out of rehab, um, but she's sober now and doing great. But my middle sister, she's always been able to take it or leave it. She can go out, she can have one drink. She doesn't even think about having another one. You know, I did that every now and again. Yeah. It's not very often. I was going to say, I could not do that. Like as soon as I had one, it was like off to the races. Yeah. You get that, that warm and fuzzy and then you're like, Oh, I want that more. And you know, yeah. And like I said, you just keep chasing it. And that's the, that's the nature of alcohol. And that's another thing. I think people, I was really hard on myself because I was like, why am I so weak that I can't say no to this or I can't stop. You know, I thought it was just a real massive floor in me. And, um, but then when you read books, have you ever read alcohol explained? I haven't. Oh, it's so good. Um, and it's the nature of alcohol and how it works in you and reading that and understanding the, how the nature of that and what it was doing and how it was tricking me and all those sorts of things. It was hugely enlightening on my journey. Like that's a really great book to read because it, it does make you go, okay, it's not, I'm not this weak person. In fact, a lot of people that do stop, um, I would say are some of the most successful people around because when you do something you do it a hundred percent. So I drank really well, you know, I gave it a good, good shot. I mean, I look at people sometimes in the pubs and I think, God, you know, they all think I'm, I'm like this teetotaler and I've been like this forever. And I kind of giggled to myself. Like, yeah, I could, at one point I could have probably drank you under the table. And the fact that I was proud of that tells me something too, you know, like it's just crazy. But yeah, I think there's, um, I've lost my train of thought now, but anyway, there's this, this mindset of feeling like you just, everyone is stronger than you is a terrible feeling. So to know that that's not the case is really important. Yeah. And I think it's probably good to acknowledge that my experience and my thought around this is that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. No. You know, you can very easily be someone who basically has no intent of quitting drinking, but you can still go to the bar on a day where, or a, or an evening or a gathering where maybe you aren't a hundred percent feeling a drink or maybe this discussion sparks curiosity and you, and you can just order an NA beer. Because that was like a really big paradigm shift for me was like the first time I went to a bar and I ordered like an NA beer. And not only did nobody even know, but I was like, wow, this just tastes like a beer. And, um, and after a little while, I forgot that I wasn't drinking. And I was like, cause when I went back and I was like, Oh, I'm going to get another drink. And I was like, Oh wait, I'm not even really drinking. And I'm like, but I'll have another one. And, um, it was a huge like shift in perspective for me, um, which made me realize like, Oh, I like, I can do this anytime I want. I can experiment with this or explore this idea of not drinking. And it's not this huge inconvenience. And it's also not a commitment that I'm deciding on in that moment. I'm not like, Oh, I'm just entirely quitting drinking. It's something you can just delve into and explore and see what you think. Exactly. And I think that's what the 80% of our shoppers are doing. You know, it's just having those alternatives or, um, or simply, you know, we have just a massive selection of adaptions, nootropics and carver. We do have some THC, some low dose THC, but you can come in there and you can have no desire to stop drinking, but you can still buy these drinks cause they're just good and they taste good and they're good for you. So, you know, mid afternoon, instead of grabbing a cup of coffee or a Red Bull or something, you know, you grab, you've got that Odyssey over there. It's got, you know, it's got caffeine in it, but it's also got the lion's mane and the cordyceps and the L-theanine and the, the ginseng and, um, and the caffeine is from green tea. So you're not going to get that crash, you know, you're, you're going to have it. And I was at university of Richmond on Tuesday doing, um, doing an event and I was given the odysseys away with the caffeine and they were loving it because they taste good and they were going to, you know, they could continue studying. They're not going to have that slump. And, um, and yeah, it's just, it was really cool. And it was really cool to see how many students came up and were like, yeah, I just don't, I don't drink, you know, I take these stuff like this to parties. And I was like, Oh my God. Yeah. Total opposite of me at 18, 19, 20. Yeah. It is crazy. I mean, there's definitely a huge societal shift happening, you know, these past several years and we're right in the middle of it. Well, I would love to try some of the couple of things that you brought. Yeah. Um, and in the meantime, we'll go down a fun little, uh, historic rabbit hole. You know, I think grab this, you know, I think like one thing that's helpful for, for people to understand when it comes to alcohol is that alcohol. And I mentioned this earlier, but, and I'll also link the book that you mentioned and the book that I mentioned, I'll link those in the show notes. Yeah. I want to read the one you mentioned too. Yeah. So, um, so yours was alcohol explained, alcohol explained, and the book I mentioned was called drunk. And it's more so about the history of alcohol. And, um, yeah, I'll link both those books in the show notes below. So, you know, alcohol, like beers used to only be like 2%. You know, and even wines were only five or 6% alcohol and they watered them down. You know, so like if you lived in, in Rome, you know, 1500 years ago, or, you know, even longer, you know, over 2000 years ago, your wine was, you would drink a cup of wine and it was like half water, you know, it's mostly water. It is. And, you know, so today we're used to drinking alcohol. That's, you know, 10 plus percent, you have these vodkas and some things that are, you know, 90% ABV. Um, that's, I don't want to say it's not normal. It is normal now. But if you think about the majority of human history, we have not been drinking substances this strong. And I think it's just, it's worth being aware of, you know, it's worth being aware of. It's, you know, it's, we don't fully have our minds wrapped around the idea of like drinking an entire bottle of bourbon, you know, in a day, uh, you know, and can we do it? Sure. Uh, but you're putting yourself in like a very, on a very extreme end of the spectrum, you know? Yeah. And, you know, of course, like you mentioned, we already know that it's not healthy, but. Yeah. But when you going back to what you were saying before about the history too, you know, and it being a social lubricant for many people, I mean, that's why I, I first started actually about 14, 15, and I was going to, I mean, I grew up in England. I shouldn't say that because I'm sure not every teenager does this in England now, but this was a long time ago. And I, I realized that, you know, I didn't have a lot of self confidence and, um, I was just, I was, I looked like a stick insect. I mean, I just was this, you know, people would go, I'd had short hair and people would go, you're like a little French boy. And I'd be like, that's not really what you want to hear when you're, you know, trying to date and go out with people. So, but I found that after I had a couple of drinks, I became this, I had this other side that was really flirty and I could, I had the chat, you know, I could really, I, you know, and I was like, oh, well, now I'm getting a lot of attention. Probably was not good attention, but I was getting attention. And, you know, that, that drives you. And I know that that has been the start for so many people and gaining that confidence and feeling that you can be this other person. And of course, as a kid, you think it makes you mature. I mean, we can't wait to, you know, as a kid, you do pizza and ice cream and then you can't wait to be an adult where it all involves wine and cheese. And, you know, that makes you so elegant and all of those things. And we have this miss, this concept of that's how adulting is, but then we've all taken it to this other extreme. We've bought it back and, you know, why can't we go back to having pizza and ice cream? Like you had a great time with your friends. Nobody was arguing. You had, you know, it was innocent fun. And I think that's what, I think that's, sorry, I think that's what a lot of people are trying to get back to now is that being present, having a shorter, but a deeper conversation and, you know, alcohol can make people angry and pissed off and arguments. And, you know, I think there's just, I don't know, I could, sorry, I could ramble about this forever. Let's do these drinks. Well, that's what we're here to do. And I'll let you do the honors if you want to pour these on that table. These are two really basic drinks. I am, I was never a big cocktail maker. That's why I enjoyed old fashions and fancy things when I went out because I couldn't make them at home. I was always, if I made a cocktail at home, it was the spirit and a mixer. So what I did is I bought two things today and I'm just going to free pour because that's kind of how I roll. Please do. So this is Amethyst. So Amethyst has four flavors and they, this is their lemon, cucumber, and serrano. They have a watermelon lime, a blueberry, mint, and ginger, and a, what's the other one? Grapefruit basil. And when I stopped drinking and people would talk to me about drinks and they'd say mouthfeel, I didn't really understand what they meant with the mouthfeel. And now I get it. So this tastes, when you, when you remove the alcohol, you, it's almost like you've had your ice in your drink too long because some of the bourbon and rum replacements are a little watered down. It feels, it feels like, um, so Amethyst has a really nice mouthfeel. Um, a lot of vodka drinkers I'll often switch over to this, uh, because you just, you could do with tonic or soda. Um, it's got a really nice bite to it and it has that lovely mouthfeel. So I'm going to do this one with, let's see, and you also don't need to buy really expensive mixers. Yeah. Um, so I'll do this one. Oops, sorry. I keep knocking the microphone. That's all right. Um, with club soda, but, and this is, I probably did pre-pour a bit too much. Um, cause it's got a bit of heat to it and a little bit of spice. All right. So you can try this one. Okay. Um, thank you. I don't have a spoon to stir it. And then this one, so these are just, Amethyst is just really lovely drinks for, they always have a bite to them. Um, like I said, they have that heat. So you feel like you're drinking an adult beverage and that's one of the things I love about them. Now, this one is a little Saints. Um, you mentioned you used to love gin and tonic. I hated gin. I also have an ex-husband that was a gin drinker. Another reason I dislike gin. I think many people just say that, but yeah, it's gin is just one of those ones. I just couldn't get behind. Yeah. This is a gin, uh, with juniper in it. And it's also got cucumber and I'm obsessed with it. And little Saints has Damiano in it, which is, um, really good for, uh, libido and things like that. And then it's also got tons of lion's mane in it. So it's a nice drink in the evening. Cause you're going to have that energy and that focus and this nice feeling and, you know, you kind of chill, but you're also social and it's just a really beautiful combination. Um, so yeah, it's become that this is honestly has become my obsession. And the woman that owns this company, did you ever see she was on shark tank? She, um, and they offered her some money at they off. They went, one of them said they would do what she came in to get, but I think they wanted a little bit more. And she said, no. And so they all backed out. And so she walked away without one of them backing her. But because partly because she was on there, this brand has just gone through the roof. And then the drinks, the little cans have reishi mushroom or reishi mushroom. Um, so she's like, I didn't need, I didn't need shot. Yeah. I'm doing great on my own. She's really phenomenal is, uh, I've met her and really like her a lot. And so she has her own brand, her own product, right? Yeah. She owns, she is the owner of little say, Oh, okay. So it's all about the mushrooms. And she was a, she was a drinker too. And then discovered the mushrooms and that they can have this really nice feel. I mean, they're not psilocybin, right? They're not the magic mushrooms, but they are magical. Um, and it's funny. In fact, she, uh, when I met her in DC last year or earlier this year in January, she, uh, she gave me a huge hug and she told me I was her longest standing client customer. And when I first reached out to her, she was literally just getting a box and putting cans in to send me samples from her kitchen. And, um, yeah, and she's gone through the roof now. So it's like, just a really neat, really neat story. Cheers. Cheers to you. Cheers to her. Yes. What do you think? Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's good. Do you wanna try this one? Do you mind drinking? No, I don't mind at all. Okay. All right. So that's the lion's mane with the tonic. Yeah, that's good. They're both really refreshing. Very refreshing. Yeah. And I have tried that one before. That's definitely like my style for sure. Well, they both are, but this one for sure, like the gin kind of replacement. I think the, um, I think the amethyst, um, you can also, I mean, it's really nice to squeeze a lemon. You don't want to add, I wouldn't add cucumber to it just because it's already got that. Yeah, it definitely does. Which one do you prefer? I mean, I like, well, I mean, I probably like, you're the guest of honor. Take whichever one, but I can have every day. So I'll keep this one. All right. If you insist, I'm perfectly, I have all this at the shop every day. Speaking of that though, it's funny because even though I do have that available, I never drink my drinks. I may, I might do an odyssey or a G-spot or one of the cool adaption ones while I'm working. Um, but I typically don't do any of these until after work. It's still my going back to that ritual of going from your day to your night. Um, so for me, these are still my, they're my, Hey, I'm done with my day. I'm going to pour something really tasty and sit and relax. And it took me the longest time to realize it didn't have to have the alcohol in it to have the same feel the same to mean the same thing. Yeah. Well, I think, um, on this topic of ritual, you know, not to dive too far back into the history part, but I do just find it so fascinating. I mean, there's, there's an argument and a theory that we have agriculture because of the communal ritual of drinking, um, you know, and it's called the bread. It's called the, um, the beer before bread theory. And, uh, and the argument is that actually the reason that we have things like cereals and stuff is because of the collection of grain that was used to make beer. And this wasn't always the consensus for a long time. Um, because we thought that, you know, we were just sitting around and that like bread, you know, over fermented and somehow we got beer out of it and we taste it and we're like, Oh, that's not that bad, which is a plausible theory, but it's also once we discovered much older sites, you know, originally we thought we just had like hunter gatherers, but then we discovered much older, ancient sites that showed a much higher level of capability and understanding, and also proof of, um, swaths of beer. And this is before we had our agriculture. So it kind of challenges our thoughts of like, we've been drinking a long time. So we know for a fact that humans have been drinking alcohol in a ritualistic communal way for at least 12,000 years. Um, and that's pretty conservative because even in, in Edward Slingerland's book, he talks about how Neanderthals have been drinking all the way back where we have documented evidence that it goes back almost 10 million years. That's insane. It's crazy. It's kind of, you can't get your head around that. It's, it's insane to think about. Um, but it comes back to this idea of ritual. So just because somebody quits drinking doesn't mean that they are stopping implementing something that is a ritual for them. Right. And so that, you know, waiting until you're done with work or something, you know, even for me as like, uh, you know, uh, uh, I guess I'm claiming myself to be a high performer. Right. I mean, cause I'm just obsessed with trying to maximize my potential every way that I can. But even when I was drinking, like I had my own rule where I was, I would only drink on the weekends. And that was my like, excuse to just like go crazy on the weekend, you know? And then like, yeah. Blow it out every weekend. Exactly. You know? And, and then I would tell myself this lie of like, well, yeah, you don't have an issue because like, you don't even drink during the week. Right. You know, and there's many other people who come home and have a drink every day. Yes. And then it's the excuse that you tell yourself, you know, um, and, and in many ways it opened the door for me, like overindulging. Um, and I also struggle with ADHD and people who tend to have people that have ADHD also tend to overindulge. Right. So instead of having two slices of pizza, they have an entire pizza. Right. Or instead of like, you know, a bowl of ice cream, they just eat the entire thing of ice cream. Right. And I'm totally guilty of that. And those tendencies also happen with alcohol, you know, at least for me, and I'm sure other people may be relate as well. Yeah. So having rituals and having kind of rules for yourself is definitely important. So do you have any other, like you mentioned, like, you know, even something like this, like having this after work, um, what are your thoughts around how people are implementing non-alcoholic beverages in a communal societal ritualistic way? Right. Like before we came on air, we were talking about the, um, event at Celeste farms. And I know that you've partnered with them before. Um, I think you've collaborated with the pear club before. Haven't, I haven't been with the pear club. Okay. No. Oh, so pear club collaborated with Celeste. Yeah. And you can tell that, you know, the people that are inclined, whether it's myself, whether it's Perry, you know, we're inclined to participate in these things. And these are obviously people that are in some ways experimenting with societal gatherings that are not revolved around alcohol. Um, so that's just one example of, you know, maybe like a, a dating thing, or maybe you go to like a farm to table event or, you know, a sauna or a quote, I know you mentioned sauna earlier. So what does that shift look like? Because if the ritual used to involve, um, or revolve around having an actual cocktail or a bourbon or a glass of wine after work, what is somebody shifting to? And what are the things that they're, you know, maybe trying to adapt to when it comes to not, you know, or at least exploring, not drinking, but trying to keep that kind of social communal ritualistic part of their life. Do you have any thoughts on that? I think, you know, going back to the, the, as kids, we did pizza and ice cream, right? Because it was the friends, it was the people you were with. And I think that's what we've gotten completely away from. We've made it about the alcohol. Um, but really at the end of the day, if you and I and other people are all meeting is because we enjoy spending time and talking and learning and maybe talking about growth and talking about, you know, things that we've done, I, whatever it could, whatever it is, we've forgotten how to do that without having the social lubricant. And so I think that's what it comes back to. And so people are looking for alternatives to meet, to go into the bars, you know, or if they go out to dinner, they want to know there's something not alcoholic because people want, I think that people want to get back to how we used to be. I don't mean, and I don't mean in, in all ways, cause you know, we don't want to go back to some of the ways we thought in the fifties and sixties, but I just think that there's an element of, of being able to get together and just, and remember those conversations and get to know somebody on a deeper level and, um, and just enjoy that time and the laughter and the conversations are real because we all know if somebody says that they don't change after a couple of drinks, they're lying. It changes all of us, you know, and not necessarily in a negative way, but we might become more social or we might, we might start talking about things we wouldn't always talk about. So, you know, we, there's, there's a reason why we do it, but I think I just, from everything I see and people coming in the shop and the communities that I belong to online and stuff like that, that's what I'm seeing from it. People want to be in the present. People want to remember things. Um, so things like the saunas and the coal plunge, let's get around and do something that's also good for us, um, is, is just hugely important. I don't know what the answer is, um, for everything, but you know, maybe we go see a band and it's not, I mean, for me, it was the drinking before going to see a band, you know, now I go see, I, you know, I'll still go out and have a, an NA drink and NA beer and something to eat. And then I see the band and I really, like, I'm like, this is really great. Like I'm super into it, you know, opposed to it just being in the background because I'm probably rambling on a bunch of BS to somebody, you know, and the same with sport, sporting events, you know, the, the, the pregame and the, um, tailgating and everything, you know, by the time you, you go in, you know, you can't even bother to really watch the game. It's kind of like, eh, halfway through let's leave. So I think it's just, let's enjoy what we're doing at that time, rather than mixing it with everything else, you know, and, and, and yeah, I, I don't, and, and for some people that might not be possible, they just, you know, might not be an option. Um, but the drinks with adaption stuff, they, they do help with that. They kind of balance out those cortisol levels. So if you have social anxiety, especially Carver as well, it can really help with that so that you can still be more social and, you know, even at Celeste, they have drinks like that for the, the mocktails, you know, so it's, it's still giving you a little bit of that feel that you're, yeah, it's kind of doing something that's fun. Yeah, it does. And I can attest to that being the case, you know, even just for myself as well. Yeah. You know, there's this picture that I think of probably like six times per day, every week. Um, and it's this picture of fountain Lake here in Richmond. And it's from this time period that you mentioned, like fifties and sixties, and it's a pick, it's a black and white picture. And there's hundreds of people swimming in fountain Lake in bird park, like packed in there, you know, there's not a beer can in sight and it's people of all different, like diverse backgrounds. And it just kind of blows my mind. And I think about, you know, I was exaggerating about thinking about it six times a day, but I think about it all the time. Cause I'm like, it's so hard to imagine that being the case today. Yeah. And it makes you realize like, okay, so we're going backwards, you know, socially. Yeah. It's so strange. And, um, it really, like if you saw that today, you would think you were like on another planet or something. Um, just hundreds of people, shoulder to shoulder, hanging out after work, you know, just hanging out, swimming, hanging out in speedos, talking about who knows what, and it's like, what are these people doing? And it seems so strange to us today. Um, but what I think it says is there was clearly a time where we felt way more connected or just way more, um, accepting and confident to encounter social interactions. And like, now we're just a bunch of overthinkers and like, you know, analyze it. We have way too much information. We don't know what's going on, you know? And so I agree, I think getting back to a place where being social and being like intimately connected with people is a worthy pursuit. It's something that is important to try to like work our way back to. And I don't think it's easy. It's definitely not easy. No, I don't think so either. But when you think about it, like during the day, you can go to festivals, you can go to, you know, the, the, the veg fest or whatever, there's no alcohol there. Right. And you could go there with a bunch of friends and have a great time for three, four hours, and it finishes at six. If that same event starts at six, you automatically bring alcohol into the mix. There's that mindset that once it gets to a certain time, well, now the enjoyment has to involve this, you know, it, but we do that. We can do the same things during the day. And we don't think twice about it because, you know, people be like, Oh, why should, why are they drinking bourbon at 11 in the morning? You know, I mean, because there's just this whole mental. And so, so much of it to me is what we've grown up with. And we were all as teenagers. So, you know, in England, it was 18, 16. If you could have beer and wine, if you were in a restaurant eating, so you couldn't wait to grow up to do those things that you, the major and add on here at 21, you know, which most people are drinking for that, but you know, we, it's like, we're so quick to grow up. And then we associate all of those grown up things with drinking. Yeah. And unfortunately it just, you lose sight of all the things that you used to enjoy before that became part of your life. Yeah. Well, you're a woman of many talents, right? You're a realtor as well. Yeah. And I know, I know you dedicate a lot of your time to your shop, of course. But outside of these things, you know, outside of the, you know, many hours of work that you put into your life, you mentioned sauna earlier. I know you care deeply about you, your health and the people around you and their health. What do you spend your time, you know, doing outside of your work to make sure that you enjoy it, you know, and obviously if it doesn't involve going to the bar and getting drunk, right? Like what are the things that you try or at least aspire to try and do in your free time to make sure that you, you know, are enjoying your social life and your interactions? Sadly, I don't have that much time, which is, I need to make more time for my own self care and everything. But I do, I have a, I have an infrared sauna that I just bought at home. So yeah, I do things like that. Um, I do go out to eat often and there's so, you know, a lot of places where I know I can get a really good NA drink along with really good food. Um, so I do love to eat out still. Um, yeah, any, you know, I mean, I spend time with my kids and my family. Um, I need to do better at actually getting more in the community. Cause I tend to, um, I used to be, I used to consider myself an incredible extrovert and then I stopped drinking. I realized that I'm not as big an extrovert as I thought. And now I need my quiet time. I read a lot. Um, I'm always trying to learn something and, you know, so just, just keeping those things and learning things I'm passionate about. And I want to be more passionate about and integrate into my life. Like you were talking earlier about your, uh, all the things you love to learn. Um, you know, I think that's, that's important too. And it gives me enjoyment. So it, I don't think it has to be that you still, you have to do all of these things. It's just whatever makes somebody happy. Um, but going back to some of the things that I did when I was younger, I mean, it sounds really boring and dull, but like, we'll often, you know, when we go away on holiday with the family, we'll have a puzzle going, you know, and I'll just go over and I'll sit and just do a couple of pieces. You know, it's just those sorts of things that stops the overthinking and stops. So anything that just can take my mind into a more peaceful space. I do love to do yoga again. I haven't done it in so long. I do like to work out. I've got, I have to make more time for that. And that's something that I've got to work on. So quitting drinking doesn't mean life is perfect and rainbows and unicorns and everything falls into place. It doesn't. And that's, you know, anyone that says that is, is a lie. Um, but it's, it, it does give you the opportunity to realize all the time I spent thinking about drinking. Um, if I was on holiday come five o'clock, it was like, where, where are we going? You know, all of a sudden I have a lot more time in the day and I can, I need, I can make more time to do things that are much better for me. Yeah. Well, and here's like a little thought experiment, right. Is it makes me think about maybe the reason that we feel obligated to drink or we want to drink when we're going out into certain social situations or environments is because we don't want to be there or we don't enjoy it. Oh, absolutely. You know, and we'd rather be at home reading a book or something like that. And it's like, Oh, I got to go do this thing. Or, you know, my friends are expecting me at this thing. So then you go there and then it's like, all right, well now I'm here and I'm dreading this. So like, yeah, you know, give me a vodka. Yeah. You think, Oh, I've got to have fun now. So I got to drink to do that because yeah, the amount of things I did and the amount of commitments I made and went to that I absolutely didn't want to, but didn't know how to say no. Cause that's another issue I need to work on. Um, and I would do the exact, that exact thing. I'd go, you know what? I'm going to Uber. Let me have pour a glass of wine before we go. Maybe two. And then I'll get there and I'll be social and I'll be, I'll seem like I'm awake and I'll put on the nice big fake smile and everyone won't know any different, you know? So yeah. Yeah. I think we all do that. What were, what were some of the, and maybe, you know, who knows how long ago they were or if they're still existing, but what have been some of your, you know, biggest challenges in, you know, building 0.5, starting it, running it, you know, have there been any really difficult time periods or moments that stand out? Yeah. I mean, going into business on your own, I mean, you work for yourself. It's, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's hard work. It's a lot of work. A lot of time goes into it. You know, I am very much about, if I'm doing something I want to do it a hundred percent. So I spent such a long time before I even opened researching the non-alcoholic world. Um, yes. Trying to figure out, you know, margins and pricing and how to make it affordable for people, but still try and keep our doors open. I didn't do it. Oh, that's okay. Sorry. Yeah. No worries. Um, I'm just going to turn it off because that will probably go off again. Um, okay. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, I think, I, I think. So trying to make it, yeah. Trying to make it affordable. Trying to make it affordable, trying to make it work, thinking about the hours you're open, thinking about how people get there, thinking about growing with the trends that are happening. Um, what products you bring in, what, you know, there's just so much that goes into it and, you know, your, your face is attached to it. You know, your name is attached to it. So, you know, you want every, everyone that walks in the door to have a great experience. Um, and you, you know, you do have to be on, especially in a retail business, you've got to be on all the time. And I think, uh, it's, you know, it's not easy. I think people make their, their work look easy. I'm so passionate about it that it does make it easier. And I think if you're going to go into work for yourself as, or any entrepreneur, it's got to be something you're passionate about. Otherwise I just don't see how it works. Um, because it will take up all your time. I don't have weekends. I don't, I don't have my evenings where I just switch off. I'm always thinking or responding to an email or a text or thinking about something that we could do or a thought comes in. I'm like, Oh, that could be really interesting. Now you start Googling something and then you go down a rabbit hole and all of a sudden four hours have passed. And, um, so yeah, I think, but, but I also am huge on taking a risk. And to me, um, I had another business back in 2006 to 2009. I had a consignment shop of women's boutique and it was kind of ahead of its time. Um, but I, I, I didn't know how to kind of get that word out as well as I could have done and it closed down, but I never saw that as a failure because I learned so much from doing that. Um, I don't have a lot of money I used to open 0.5. I started with five shelves. I had nothing in the back, no stock. We had a little register and I just used, I'd had a good year in 21 and I'd saved some money and I used that savings to open the shop. So it's not like I'm saying, you know, anyone could do it. You do. Obviously I had had a little bit of money that I'd worked and saved. Um, but I, I, it was so important to me to take the risk. I knew like in my gut that it was what I needed to. Every time I stopped thinking about it, it just kept, it just kept coming away. It would just be in the back of my mind. And it was actually my daughter, uh, that I said, I can't do this. I don't want to do, I hate retail. Why would I want to do this? And I'm just not going to do it. And she was like, you're going to regret it. You know, she'd like used my own words. I would say to her about school stuff against me. And I was like, damn, I'm proud. And I'm irritated at the same time. But, uh, she, yeah. And it was true. And I knew, I knew that somebody else would open one and that I would be happy for them, but I would also be like, I should have done that. I wanted to do that. I had this knowledge and somebody beat me to it and I didn't want to let that happen. And I just knew that, you know? Yeah. Well, I know that so many people are, are grateful for you and for 0.5. Oh, thank you. So what does the future look like? You know, when you think ahead for your brand and for 0.5 and for the shop, you know, uh, you know, when you lay down at night, what are the things, you know, that you're, that you're, you know, that you're thinking about wanting to get to at some point, right. I know you offer franchise opportunities for people to open their own store. Um, you know, what are your thoughts though, as far as location here, you know, are you wanting to open another location? Are you wanting to expand, you know, like what does the future potentially hold for 0.5? Um, yeah, that's a great question. And I do spend a ton of time thinking of this. Um, we do have, we have two franchises up in New Jersey. Coincidentally, they're not related. Uh, they just both happen to be an hour from each other. Um, and then hopefully, um, hopefully Williamsburg coming up. I can't say too much. We don't have a location, but hopefully Williamsburg coming up. So the goal would be, I would love to have, um, 0.5 locations all over, uh, not to saturate it by any means. I want anyone that wants to do this to be able to do well. So for example, the New Jersey people, they, they, we signed something that said they had first dibs of anywhere in New Jersey, excuse me. So when the other place wanted to open, I went to them and said, Hey, this is where he wants to open. Are you okay with that? So same would be in William. Anywhere that opens, you know, they have to have a distance between them. Um, I've had people talk to me about opening one in Richmond, uh, either in short bump or middle Oathian Chesterfield. I don't know. Timing is right for that. You know, people are being a lot more conscientious about what they're spending money on. I feel like right now, uh, we do have a guy in DC that is ready to go. And, uh, but again, there's, you know, national guards walking around DC restaurant week was a bust up there. Uh, people aren't locals aren't going out as much. So, you know, a lot of it is to do with timing. So it's right now. I'm not, you know, I'm not pushing it too much because I, I need people to feel really comfortable with it. I'll talk you out of doing it more than I'll talk you into doing it. That's how I am because it's my, you know, somebody is buying into something that I created and you know, I want people to do well. It just, it would kill me if somebody didn't, it would break my heart. So, but I would love to see them in a lot of places. A lot of people don't want to go to big box stores. A lot of people, especially if they're trying to stop, don't want to go to Total Wines to buy things or, you know, don't want to order on Amazon. And so there's, there's a lot of reasons why I think this is, and you get that niche. People care about it. We put so much time and effort into what we, what we bring in. Sorry, am I going on? No, no, no, no. There's the fridge is beeping. I'm going to take a second. Sorry. I know I'm going off on tangents and rambling. Yeah. You're not, and that's what you're here to do. So yeah, no, no apologies necessary at all. But yeah, so the franchise that I do, I, I, you know, a lot of people on the sites that I belong to talk about, there's nothing in their area to get anything. There's, there's nothing available. And especially so much of so many of our customers, you know, they don't know what they're looking at. They don't, they don't understand, you know, they come in and they're just like, what is this? What is it all about? And so, you know, it's so important. It's just the same reason that you can get wine in every grocery shop, but there are still wine shops. And those people have the knowledge. They know the grapes. They know, you know, they can, they can talk to you about your palate. They, they get to know you. And, and that's what these non-alcoholic bottle shops do. And there are about 40 something in the country now. And each one of them like us have that same knowledge. They've done it because they're passionate about it. Um, they, they curate things by looking at the sugar content, the pricing, how they can get it out. What, you know, is it going to have, what kind of sugar does it have? Does it have cane sugar? Does it have, um, stevia? Does it have, you know, they've got, you know, we, we look at all of those things. It's so much thought goes into each product that comes in and, you know, that's really important to have. And, and people now come in, I mean, Lewis is, Lewis is a trip and he's really funny. So he's knowledgeable, but he's funny. I mean, people come in often just because they want to chat to him about the game on Sunday, you know, and, and he can speak to all of that, you know, so, um, people come in, especially, you know, some women that are a little bit older that alcohol is that their body's not able to break it down as easily. Um, you know, they can feel very relaxed talking to me and everyone in between. And especially people, I think they're in their forties and fifties. Um, they're probably the hardest people to switch over. It's been integrated. We've been doing this for a really long time. How do we, how do we continue our life if we cut this major part out? And so, you know, I can, I can speak, you know, I can speak to it because I was right there. And so I think there's that, that makes people feel a lot more comfortable. So anywhere where you have a, have a small, um, business, that's a niche business. People get, can get that, that you can't get from other places. Um, so having something like that available all over would be incredible. I actually had one guy call me from the UK and asked if I would franchise over there. And I was like, we won't even carry the same products. Like, I don't even know how that would work, but it was like the coolest thing ever to have somebody from my country go, Oh man, that would be really awesome. Um, so yeah, so we're just trying to get it into, we're trying to get this in more bars and restaurants. Um, we have about 12 or 13 local bars that, that buy from us. They love it because they can cherry pick just a few things. Um, and which is a really nice way to do it. So you don't have more and more bottles and things that you're trying to, you know, looking at dates of getting rid of and things like that. So getting it into more bars and restaurants, doing more team building type things, doing the mixology classes, um, making things more interactive. We're going to be doing more of, um, some educational pieces for people, but keeping it fun. Um, and then a lot of the corporate corporations and stuff like that, you know, you have events and then midday, you know, people love it. You drink it in an old fashion, but it's non-alcoholic and it, I mean, Dakota is our bartender and he's over at Lolita's. People need to go and see him and get him to make him a drink that he's phenomenal. And, um, so, you know, he can make an, an old fashioned tastes like an old fashioned and it's, and, you know, people just love it. So they're getting this and you almost have a little placebo effect with it. Cause you know, it's midday and you're drinking this thing and it's like, wow. And, uh, and yeah, and, and, but everyone can get in their car and drive home. You know, the company doesn't have to worry about any of the, the issues that could come with having alcohol during those times. So my, now I'm not in the shop as often as I used to be. My time is spent growing laterally and trying to make it, um, more available for people. So, well, I know I can speak for myself in having hope that many of the bars and restaurants will continue to start to carry more of this. I think that that's probably one of my biggest like wants and hopes is to continue to see that grow, you know, and have, have all, you know, more alternative options at many of these bars. Well, and they, I mean, they really need to, um, because just like you said, 50 to 54%, right. When you opened this whole conversation, I know in England, four out of 10, the statistics are four out of 10 people don't, don't drink for European countries. That's staggering. You know, we, we, and it's, and it is much bigger in the UK and other European countries, the, the sober curious and sober market has just gone crazy. Um, so if those countries are doing it, which is our past time or was for forever, then, you know, I feel like here in the States, we, we should be doing something similar, but, um, but the bars and restaurants for so many reasons, because people aren't drinking as much, they're doing things. It's called this flex drinking, stripe drinking, zebra drinking. There's all these different phrases because we've got to give a name to everything. Right. So, um, now when people go out, they'll have an alcoholic beverage and a non-alcoholic beverage. So if you have good craft, non-alcoholic drinks, then that person is going to still spend 10 bucks on this great non-alcoholic drink or, or a nice NA Peroni or, you know, some, some cool, we just bought in Sapporo and it's, it's really good or an NA Guinness or something like that. Then they're going to switch and have that. Therefore the business is still making its money. You've still got good margins. Your waitstaff and bartenders are still getting tipped on that opposed to switching over to water. Um, you're being more inclusive just like any restaurant that doesn't have a vegan option or a gluten-free option, in my opinion, is just crazy. Um, whether it's, you're doing it for a fad or because that's your, you've got celiac or you, you know, don't eat any, any meat or dairy, you've got to have those options. The non-alcoholic field, in my opinion, is now just as strong as that. And people will look when you're going out to dinner, my family, I've got somebody with celiac, I'm vegetarian, that's 70% vegan. Um, I don't drink, you know, we've got, we've got things. And so we look at restaurants where all of us are going to enjoy the same experience. And for me, that's finding somewhere that has something that's going to compliment the meal I'm having, you know, and, and I don't mind drinking water and soda water with it, but you know, when you go out to a nice dinner, you want to have that pairing. And so it's so important to have those things on the menu. You don't have to have many, you've got to have a decent NA beer. I'd love to see places more with a decent NA wine and then having a decent NA cocktail is, is just hugely important. Yeah. I completely agree. So for anybody that's listening to you, share this and they're thinking like, man, Jody's my spirit animal. And they align with a lot of what you're saying. And, um, maybe it is on their radar that they would open up a, you know, a 0.5 in their location. Um, I know you mentioned at the moment, maybe you'd talk them out of it, but maybe if there's somebody who does want you to talk them out of it, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Yeah. They can go onto the website. Um, it's 0.5 rva.com. And there is a franchise tab on the top and they can click on that. It's almost better. We have a franchise company that we work with. Um, but everyone that's bought one has just come directly to me because they don't know my business. Like I know my business. So, um, yeah, I would just say, get all or just email us at 0.5 rva at 0.5 rva at gmail.com. That's what it would be. Um, so yeah, they can just reach out and talk to me. And I, you know, like I said, I'll talk about the cons quicker than I'll talk about the pros. Um, but I also, and the same with people that might not, you know, thinking about not drinking, just pop by the store, you know, whoever's there, we're all pretty approachable and easy and, you know, I'm never gonna, I'm never going to talk about alcohol being a, you know, a bad thing. It's never going to be preachy. Everyone should do exactly what they want to do. And that's in everything in life. Yeah. So, um, but yeah, if they're curious, I can, you know, we can certainly have some drinks that they can try and they can see what it's like. Cause we all have a misconception of what the NA drinks are going to taste like. And it's one of the best things I see whenever I'm there and I pour somebody something and they take a sip and they just go, wow, what did I just have? That's amazing. You know, and they take another sip and it's just this, this light that goes on and you can see it in their eyes and they're just like, huh? Yeah, I could definitely have that at night, you know, and it's just really cool. It is. And I, you know, again, I can speak from personal experience. It's nice to have these things in the refrigerator at home, you know, it is something to grab. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong, but so the, the name 0.5 comes from everything being below 0.5% in alcohol. Yeah. To be, to be a non-alcoholic, it has to be below 0.5. Um, and then it also, which is, which is cool. Cause not everyone puts the two together and then some people put it immediately. It clicks. Um, but also like our, our newsletter is called the point because so many people, when I said I was open on non-alcoholic bottle shop, we're like, what's the point? What's the point of having a drink? If it's not going to give you a buzz. And I'm like, well, there's a lot of points. So, you know, it's just sort of ties into all these sort of ideas and, um, but yes, to be, to be non-alcoholic. And that's why we often say non-alcoholic opposed to alcohol free. A lot of our products are completely alcohol free, but to be alcohol free, it has to be a zero. So yeah, most, most things are non-alcoholic because it's, it's hard sometimes to get that trace out and it's not necessarily because of any alcohol. It could be because it's got an ingredient in it, like a bitter or something, or, you know, the, in the making has created a tiny bit of alcohol in it. Yeah. And so you're right here in Cary town. Yep. You're between Home Sweet Home and Blackbird. Yep. I think. Yep. Um, what's the address? 3435 West Cary street. 3435 West Cary street. Right opposite McDonald's. Yep. I've spent plenty of time in there and I see exactly what you've mentioned, which is people having great experiences. Um, I've witnessed everything from people reading poetry to people, uh, attending the mixology classes to your third year anniversary, I believe. Yep. Yep. Um, and, uh, it's been amazing to obviously get to know you and to see your journey and to, you know, be a small part of 0.5 and to be a patron and a friend. And, uh, I know that, you know, I just speak for myself, but I know a lot of people are grateful for what you've done and the risk that you've taken to do this. And, uh, it's nice to start to see it begin to pay off and, you know, you get in the recognition that you deserve and yeah, you know what you do, it helps a lot of people. Um, and it's, you know, the products are great and, you know, so for anybody listening to this, that's resonated with our discussion today, what would your message be to somebody who maybe isn't never even realized that this was an option and they're thinking, oh, you know, maybe I should try to quit drinking, or maybe I should explore into this, you know, do you often find yourself answering particular questions or giving particular, you know, advice or anything? What is, what would you tell somebody who's curious about 0.5 and considering no longer drinking? Yeah. I mean, I would, if, if you are curious about, if you're thinking about not drinking for whatever reason, um, you know, certainly go online and join any, any free community because you'll realize that there are so many people out there with the same thought. Um, and if it's, you know, that you, you know, that you think friends won't be friends or that people will give you a hard time, you know, just find one person in your, in your friend group that gets behind you. And I think more people, like you said, nowadays have way more people that are going to be, are going to back them. Um, you know, just, yeah, come in, talk about it, look up things, you know, let your curiosity carry you because that's, that's what carried me. It was the curiosity and what would this look like? What are these things? What would that lifestyle, let it carry you talk to people that have, have done it. And, um, and it doesn't have to be forever. So, you know, you can make a change for a week or 30 days. You know, it doesn't, I don't even say that mine is forever. I have no intention of going back to drinking, but I can't say that it's forever. That's just too much pressure on myself. So, you know, take the pressure off yourself, do these things, talk to people, find out, try it, try it for a few days, see how you feel. If you miss drinking, then you can go back to it anytime you like, you know, it's, it's, it's available for you. So now you've got two things that are available for you. If you want to just give it a shot, give it a shot. Yeah. And yeah. And know that it's, it's not going to be the lifestyle change. It's not going to be as big and terrible as you think it's going to be. You know, a fear stops us from doing most things. Don't don't that, that can't be, that can't be part of it. It's just not worth it. Life's too short. You got to do what you, what you're curious about. Yeah. If you don't like it, go back. It's, it's, it's totally cool. That's all there is to it. I completely agree. You know, I've never met anybody that has quit drinking. And then at least not to my knowledge has looked back and be like, um, I'm so upset that I quit drinking. Yeah, exactly. That is not, I've never, I've never heard that go together. There is never anyone that's going to go, you know, I'm so mad that I woke up today and I'm not hung over. I'm so mad that I, yeah, it's just, you know, it's just one of those things, but, but it's there and it's available. So it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Yeah. Well, I've enjoyed every moment of this conversation. Likewise. Thank you so much for spending a big portion of your day and having this discussion. And thank you so much for being here. This concludes our episode with Jody Sidle from point five. You can learn everything about 0.5 at 0.5 rva.com, or you can visit 0.5 at 3435 West Kerry street right here in Richmond, Virginia. Thanks. This podcast was recorded at Vera house studios in Richmond, Virginia and produced by Perry Young and Mike Metzger.