Maximalism, Homesteading, and Calvinism

We chat about some random stuff and Calvinism. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Let's go places.

SPEAKER_05 0:02

Let's go places.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 0:04

What is the what is that car dealership? I'm gonna look it up. Or not dealership.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

We were Toyota, dude.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Toyota. Let's go places.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

Let's go places. We were talking about how our grandmas had it right aesthetically. And how both us and my wife and your fiance are rejecting minimalism and embracing maximalism.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

We're embracing tradition and maximalism.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

And ultimately embracing tradition. Because tradition was right. All of this, I was talking about our office and all of this free antique furniture on Facebook Marketplace that's made out of real wood and real things and not plastic wood.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Yeah, not the fake crap. Not the fake garbage, dude. I was having a conversation with somebody today about I I put this in the same uh same boat as like like I bought Marley a um I know I know you didn't necessarily do this, so this isn't this isn't a debate between you and I necessarily, but this is where my uh philosophy went. I bought Marley a a non-lab grown diamond because I put it in the same like philosophy as like sort of the the authenticity question about like material or or the the what constitutes art, what constitutes sort of thing. And I I bring that up because somebody was I bought Marley and I's wedding rings today, or I bought Marley's wedding ring today and picked it up and whatnot. Uh her band. And um one of my one of my friends was talking about their wedding ring and was talking about how they purposely went with a different, like less beautiful thing because of what whatever reason. And it's just interesting to see different people's philosophy on the material and what's beautiful, even just based off like simple choices.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Yeah, I probably I'm probably less authentic than you. We went with the lab grun diamond, but that's not because we don't value real things, that's because I I think the diamond industry is super expensive. And the diamond industry is particularly not a craft industry as much as as like at least the little I researched. Like, there's totally a craft behind it, but there's also a whole thing about Russian giant Russian diamond mines and trying to market it to diamonds to specifically to engaged couples, and you know other justice anyways to the whatever but uh we we were we were fine with the thing is is technically the Moisenae, like the lab grun diamonds, like they might as well by by material they might as well be diamonds, they're just not found in a giant quarry somewhere. But I I still have respect, totally respect for people who did like it's not like uh it's just cheaper. That's why we did it, it's just cheaper. And we didn't get a fancy.

SPEAKER_05 3:14

How expensive it is, it is honestly a deal breaker for some for some instances.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

You're like gonna be so expensive. I'm assuming since we're gonna upload this, I'm assuming you and Marley uh have had all these conversations.

unknown 3:28

How do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 3:29

About diamond, like she knows the kind of diamond she's getting because we're talking about this on a public podcast. Duh, right. Sorry. I don't but I don't know what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

She already has the ring about how we wanted both of us agreed about not wanting lab ground.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Right. But she's had that ring for a while now.

SPEAKER_05 3:57

Dude, a good nine months. But dude, what I wanted to bring up when we hit record was something we were our our staff was listening to uh this like practicing the way pastors conference on stream, like a live stream, which was which was great. Um so good. And one of the things that that John Mark in the first session had brought up, which I found quite interesting, to be honest, uh throughout the evening or throughout the day, they did such a good job.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Our beloved John Mark.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

Our beloved John Mark. They did such a good job, like the staff did such a good job of trying to make it super fun, but it kind of felt like I was in school again of just like sitting through lectures. But at the same time, like it was like John Mark and Drew Hyndrew Hyun and Jim O'Ryan, like just these like goaded speakers. But anyways, I digress. John Mark was talking about how we are so often swayed by I mean, it it's a it's a drum that he beats pretty frequently, frequently of how people like all aspects of life are so deeply influenced by culture, which then just kind of snowballs affect like culture. And he brought up how he sees this in architecture, which I found super I found this actually super interesting. So and and particularly around like the home. So like we think about this, like however many years ago, our grandparents like their main form of of social activity outside of school was what? They would always talk about like oh, like me and my friends would get on our bikes out in our front yards and go ride around the streets. Right. Oh, sick, okay. So like around even the home, like the social interaction was found in like the front yard and in the streets. So you'd have like big streets, big front porches. So like you'll notice houses built from that era have like big front porches because people after work would like chill out on their porch, talk to their neighbor, they'd have a glass of porch, like that sort of thing. So you have that, and then you have that shift in like the early 2000s to what instead of big like porches in the front yards, it pivots to the backyard. So actually, like people's main space is their backyard, the backyard, which is just one step further into like privacy. So, like early 2000s, maybe like late 90s, you have like people chilling in the backyard, like you're you're looking for houses that have big, like nice decked out backyards because you want the privacy while still being outside, like etc. And then what happens in like the 2010s is like the key part of a house is like the media room. Like, where's what's the living room like? The game room the game room because the life like the home is centered around the TV in like the 2010s. So, like you go from front yard with communal to backyard, more private, but still outside, to then the media room, and then now, even beyond then, it's just like you've got your phone and you could you can have the fullness of it in whatever room you're in.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

Now you you're like me and you live in a trailer because you can't afford any of those things. Can't afford any of those things, but you've got your glowing rectangle in your phone in your pocket that you can But I've got my glowing rectangle and my office actually in this in this church that was built in the 80s. Yeah, but I find Yeah, that's a good point. That's an interesting thought. Even that evolution, like the way that we of architecture, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

Because he was like he was talking about how architecture theory like is beyond just like what material you're building out of, like how big a room is, like whatever, all the general like specs. But like the question of architecture is like what what atmosphere are you facilitating by the space that you're creating?

SPEAKER_04 7:44

Dude, which we all you know, do you know how many Gen Z I've met? Okay, you find a Gen Z 21, 22, and they're married or they're not married, and you ask them, like just like generally, you ask them. I actually really curious like what you what you find people saying. What's your dream life? Like you're living in America, like reasonable dream life. What does it look like? What do you think? What do you think is to you? What do you hear often from Gin C to me?

SPEAKER_05 8:17

I mean, I'm in the suburbs of Portland.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Or to you personally, but what do you also hear people talk about?

SPEAKER_05 8:22

I hear more and more a regression, not to the classic like cliche American dream, like white picket then sort of thing, but actually five steps a little bit closer to it. Of like, okay, I'm valuing traditional models of family, I'm valuing being close to relatives, I'm valuing like not like working myself to death. Like I'm I'm finding I'm finding value in the community. I'm finding yeah, I'm I'm I'm like a lot of young people want to own a home one day, sort of thing. That's at least the young people that I'm interacting with.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Right.

SPEAKER_05 9:01

They have more of a like I feel like millennials for the most part, when they were like our age, wanted to like break out of the system that they were like brought up in. And I'm discovering as I talk to a lot of younger Gen Z, a lot of them are actually valuing unless they have some form of like broken family that has like a lot of trauma that comes along with it, a higher value of family, like almost like a return to a family.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah, I think millennial right, it was like I gotta get out and get a quick career and maybe buy a home, but yeah, but down to have kids later establish myself. Yeah, exactly. Like that was really common. Did the amount of like 19, 20 year old guys and girls I've heard, and I'm like, what's your dream life? And they're like, I just got like five acres of land, got a house. Like a lot of them, even ones from the city and from suburbs, like like a couple chickens, and the amount of yeah, the amount of the amount of young people I've heard who and and the level d degrees of you know homesteading vary, but just the idea of like owning land, which is actually the original, like the original American dream. The OG American dream wasn't the white picket fans, it was it was a little bit of land, like it was this idea of like self-sustainability and more of like a pioneering self-sustainability than like uh uh you know my my home in the city, like out just outside the city. Like it wasn't it evolved into that and that privacy, but it was I feel like it was kind of a pure form of privacy, but it wasn't about privacy, it was about like land ownership, like it was about having everything you needed in in a space that you could you could roll up your sleeves and make work, you know, alongside your family. A little bit of land, yeah. Me too. Like that's just like the whole thing, like such a dream. Young people, it's like literally a and I think like a ton of Gen Z that's like I just like you know, give me like a few acres.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

And a couple acres in the mountains, dude, with some with some big literally.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

It's like it's like I bet I bet any young person listening to this and be like, yeah, that's my dream. So that's not really yeah, that's not really like a always it yeah, it involves a family, yeah. Like close, close community, like and that might be a bias from our spheres, but I feel like a lot of even like hyper progressive people, it's like a similar vibe, like it's a similar vibe. Like, I could totally, you know, if you I think if if I went to like this most hippie liberal progressive person, and not that I'm like necessarily super conservative myself, but and they're like and I'm like, hey, like what's your dream? And they're like, I think they they or it's like how do you think it would sound like you got a plot of land and you got a house and and family, and I think a lot of them too would be like that sounds amazing. It sounds pretty great. Sounds great. I'm so down for that. So it's because it's such a pure, it's a pure way of life, you know. It's simple, it's a very pure way of life.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Like the the chase for young gifted leaders to like no one ever tells you to, but it just kind of happens in you because of how leadership is elevated. To like have a desire to make a name for yourself very like it's very babble. Like let us let us set the tower to make a name for ourselves. Yeah, and just like like the the like the fact that like the truly like unless your portion is to be like known and like elevated and and like broadcasted, like the true good life is like obscurity, where like really the only people you who remember you are like your family who you discipled well, and your close friends and your like local church community. And yeah, like just to be forgotten, like like forgotten, like 99.999% of humanity. Yeah. Their name erased from history after a couple generations.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

And even even the even the like famous, famous preachers, it's not like their life was necessarily marked by profound like there was no like idol culture. Like, look at this. This is a post by Griffin Gooch in Substack, but he was Gooch always goes back. He writes he writes amazing stuff. Dude, I love um he was talking about the Griffin Gooch. I think this is Wesley, John Wesley. Yeah, West John Wesley, and these are notes from his journal. Listen to this. Wednesday, October 20th. At noon, I preached in the middle of town. No one accepted the good news. Later, late later, they came to the house I was staying at and tried to kill me. The owner would not let them. Friday, October 22. At 11, I preached in the town next over. Not one attentive person in the crowd. Then men started shouting me down. None were saved. Sunday, October 24th. I preached at noon and the crowd listened intently. Dozens came forward. I'd never seen the crowd so enthusiastically receive the gospel. I love the fact that that was dozens. So funny.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Like it's like 24 people. But like it's they tried to kill me.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

The homeowner would not next.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

It's I mean, what Wesley's the 1800s, 1700s?

unknown 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

1600s, maybe?

SPEAKER_04 14:42

I don't know. I think he was sometime in that era. He's old. He was on the horse, he was on the horse, horse, horseback evangelist. But it's just not even back then, it just is not like you couldn't make a name. Here's the thing is you couldn't make a name for yourself through like networking. In our day, you can you can make a name, you can literally just be a normal youth pastor. Literally, you can hustle your way, and you don't even do anything like magnificent in youth ministry, and you've networked, but because you like have a vibe, you like network your way into having a name. And it's so funny because like Christianity is not like getting close to like half the population of Christians that it was like 20 years ago, like you know, dude, like okay, Richard at the heights.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

If you're this is like a celebration, and I talked to him, you know, and he's like, I grew the youth ministry from like 50 to 400. And it's just like cra, you know, and like nowadays, if you did that, and people are doing that, and it's like you're not famous for doing that.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

Like, there's that couldn't that shouldn't remotely make you famous, it's not special, it's amazing, like it's a work of God, and like so many people are getting saved, but it's not like special, you know, and so it's just funny how like making a name for yourself has like so little to do actually with your actual fruit. Funny enough, like you you probably have to have a little bit of fruit to to get to make a name for yourself, but it's it's like honestly not like you you'll hear, dude. Like, there's revivalists who are leading to like will lead 50,000 people to Jesus, start a million churches, and you'll never hear about them. You'll never know their name. Most people will never know Jackie Pollinger. Single-handedly, just freaking terrible, single, single-handedly, like change an entire you know, section of Hong Kong, one of the biggest cities in the world. No one like most people don't know. She's actually huge. She's not small at all. She's like what easily maybe above six feet. I don't know. She's super tall. I don't know. If you see her in the video, she looks super tall. No, she's definitely not small.

SPEAKER_05 17:13

No, dude.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

No, I'm prompt, trust me. I've I've literally It's not gonna be on Google.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

Whenever I tell people about Jaggie Pollinger, I do I literally describe her to be a small woman.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

I mean, she's she might not be that tall, but she's definitely not small. It doesn't have her height.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

There's no She's definitely not tall. I mean, not small, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 17:37

Okay, here's her standing next to is that Desmond Tutu?

SPEAKER_04 17:42

No way, she's next standing next to Desmond Tutu. Dude, here's her next to a like she's not the tallest person. Nah, she's very clearly in those in any of these photos you're looking at. She's very clearly not like a small person.

SPEAKER_05 18:00

I always thought she was like literally so small.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Nah, she's like she's like probably taller. She's probably taller than me.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

Hong Kong girl. She's definitely not tall. Like she's a few.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

But she's not like five, maybe. Okay, we five. I'm gonna have to title at this point. I'm gonna have to title this podcast episode a debate about Jackie Bullinger's high tricks. Okay. Have a anyways, yeah, making a name for yourself. Overrated.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

Yeah, you freak that crap.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Stop doing it and go do the work of God. It's not that you're not gonna be happy with all your connections. Your connections aren't going to satisfy you. And you're gonna spend your this time and it'll be so confusing. All this time trying to get something, and this isn't business, so your fruit is not gonna come from having a big network. Just put your head down and serve the Lord and network with people when those that networking is relational and produces fruit, but don't make your life decisions based on your networks. Overrated, but also get out there, meet a lot of people, have some fun. That's my sage wisdom.

SPEAKER_05 19:25

I think that's it.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

I think that's my sister-in-law, um Alyssa, she texted me.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

She Calvinism.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

Calvinism?

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Kind of like that.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

That's actually one of my main questions of life.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

So such a good question, actually. I figured we should hit that a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

Alright, Ashlyn.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Little Alyssa, not Ashlyn. Gosh dang it.

SPEAKER_05 19:50

Also, shout out Ashlyn. Alright, Alyssa. There are five tenants. There are five.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Tulip. Tulip.

SPEAKER_05 19:58

At least in the modern conception of Calvinism. You will Calvinists are are are awesome.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

We're all we're all a little we all got a little bit of the Calvinism in us.

SPEAKER_05 20:12

A little bit of the ism in you. You can't say Protestant has some ism. You can't say of the Calvinist. Like the Calvinist ism. We've all the opposite of the.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to cut cut that. You can't say that.

SPEAKER_05 20:29

Every Protestant has got a little bit of the Calvinism. Of the Calvinism.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

And that is T T is total depravity. Total depravity.

SPEAKER_05 20:40

Sorry, to give further explanation, Calvinism comes from a bloke named John Calvin, or at least is like later on developed from the theology of John Calvin. Who was a reformer like off the back end of like the Reformation.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

He's John Calvin's pretty dope. He's got he's got some good stuff in there.

SPEAKER_05 21:01

Yeah. And uh and so yeah, he was a reformer. And people generalize Calvinism with like through an acronym called TULIP. Now it's not like the fullness of everything that Calvinism is, but it's a it's it does a pretty good job of explaining it. T T-U-L-I-P. So T is total depravity. This idea that humans are like utterly depraved and unable to do any form of good by themselves. Um like like it's not just that they can't save themselves, it actually goes a step further in that there is nothing like of your own being that is like good.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Because you're unable to seek God by yourself.

SPEAKER_05 21:44

Yeah, and you're unable to seek God by yourself. The only way that you meet with God is because he's drawing himself to you. Yeah, he's drawing you to himself. Yeah. So that's a T. But you is unconditional election. Right?

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yeah, yep, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 21:59

Meaning That God chooses the elect and like, yeah, it's very predestination-esque. God chooses the people that he will save.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

It doesn't spell it out in unconditional election, but the doctrine's very clear that on the unconditional election, Calvinists believe that God elects specific individuals for salvation before the world existed. Now that Calvinists go in and around on that one, but that's one of the big ones.

SPEAKER_05 22:31

Yeah, and elections like elections really complicated because most super complicated quite literally everybody believes in election to some degree. You have to it's a part it's a term that Paul uses, so everybody does. It's just a matter of like how that actually uh how that rubber beats the road. So that's yeah, that's more of a more confusing of the five, and honestly, one of the most loaded. Meaning that Christ's blood uh or Christ died only for the elected. So Christ did not actually die for the people who are not elected and going to hell or the people in hell. The Calvinists believe that Christ actually didn't die for those people because they believe Christ's blood is like utterly sufficient. And so if Christ did die for them and they weren't saved, then that would be like that means Christ's blood actually wasn't sufficient.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Which that's that point, it makes sense. I get I get what's being putting down.

SPEAKER_05 23:27

Yeah, most of them are based upon one another. Yeah, they flow out from one another.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

Yeah, and uh yeah, let's finish it and then I'll give some thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 23:35

Yeah, I is irresistible grace, meaning that when when God draws him, grace draws you to himself, when dra when God is extending grace to you, you are unable to resist it. So it's um the the process of salvation is like completely started, sustained, and finished by God, and you really uh are not of your own agency like initiating or really like maybe they wouldn't say participating, but you're definitely not initiating and you're definitely not sustaining your your justification, so to speak. And then the last one is P, which is perseverance of the saints, which is this belief that like you cannot lose your salvation, that that when God has elected and saved you, or when God has saved you, um, that that's like sealed and that that um that can't be lost. So you'll hear people be like, Oh, I'm a three-point Calvinist or a four-point Calvin, four-point, and if they're a five-point, you're like, holy crap.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

If you if they're a five-point Calvinist, I promise you they're going to tell you they're a five-point Calvinist, because they don't always do.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

You don't find people, most people don't know how many points of Calvinists they are, but you don't find people very often who are five-point Calvinists, because if you're five-point, it's what is it, it's specifically the unconditional election, I believe, is the like kind of the fifth point. And that's the point that essentially if someone is a five-point Calvin Calvinist, most likely they believe that some people are elected to go to heaven to be with Jesus, and by proxy, other people are literally opted out of being chosen. Like that God like wills that God like wills. And there are, I mean, there are people, multiple people like I have a conversation conversations with who would literally tell you that God, like, God is like min-maxing his glory.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Yeah, you know the word, you know the Gen Z phrase of like, I'm like, I'm like, what do they got maxing out like that they're literally that God's literally like predestination, like glory maxing, that that God's glory maxing through predestination, so that he's like picking, like systematically choosing.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

I mean, my ultimate issue with even the tulip and like Calvinism. Okay, the problem with Calvinism is first off, it's an ism. So it's built off of a theologian, one theologian. And any entire theological framework built on one person is bound to have flaws. Like it's just there's there is no theologian great enough post scripture, who no matter how amazing they are, who is worth building the entirety of our theological framework of God on. Like it's just it's not gonna work like that. The other point, so that's like it's just like a general point of wisdom. Like, just read, read everybody, read all the points, and then read the Bible mostly and filter all your points through. The second point that I have always found I think most problematic, not that any of them, other than like unspecific, like unconditional election. Election is different than unconditional election, that like God like literally elects specific people before for and that he by proxy doesn't elect others. It's kind of a ridiculous belief. That most of the points of Calvinism, the emphasis of God's nature, are built mostly on philosophy and not biblical theology.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

Now it's not that is a systematic theology.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

It's not it's not that the premise of God's sovereignty is wrong, but it's that we we're huge on that the Bible invites us to understand God in a specific way, and it does so the Bible does so through its terms, through Genesis, and then you know, and from beginning to end that it does so in a narrative. And what Calvinism, in my view, and I'm not a professional theologian in the Calvinistic world, but in my view, has always kind of built all of this theology on this idea that you know it's like it's like the Bible's giving you this idea of God as you know, he's sovereign, he was there before the universe, but and you're taking those specific points about God's nature being there before the universe, and you're kind of trying to logically extrapolate a lot of theology based on that single view of God being there, but you don't really like like get deeply into the actual personality of God because it's like Calvinism doesn't work well with Moses, you know, God relenting in the his inner set in Moses inner, it just doesn't. There's explanations for it, but when you're reading the story like a normal human, it's just not giving unconditional election in the way specifically in the way unconditional, it's giving like God has a will, no matter how uncomfortable it is for some people that God like shifts and he flows. And yeah, it causes lots those cause lots of big questions. But that's my only it's not that like most of those points are like inherently wrong, it's that it's that there's emphasis they lean into.

SPEAKER_05 28:55

But the problem philosophical answers that are assumed within the framework, which happens, which is not like just a Calvinism thing. That's a that's a whatever, whatever system you are using. Absolutely, her whatever hermeneutic, which everyone has a hermeneutic, whatever hermeneutic that you are coming to the Bible with to read, you are automatically carrying in assumptions upon with the assumptions of your hermeneutic. And some of them hold a lot of weight, some of them are ones that are just like you received and are and are running with. And in the same way, like Calvinism comes in and has philosophical assumptions about the nature of will, for example. Yeah, the nature of will, and the nature of God's will, and and the nature of what does it mean to have choice and free will, and and what is it, what does it mean for God to be sovereign? And there are preconceived philosophical answers to those questions that then inform the way that the Calvinists read the Bible, and in the same way that like other people will do the same. It's not that it's not that preconceived philosophy is a downright wrong thing, it just means that like we need to do our best to check them at the door and to figure out what hermeneutic did the biblical author right through. What hermeneutic and primarily what hermeneutic did Jesus read through, what hermeneutic did the church read through for thousands of years when they interpreted these passages, etc.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

I mean for myself, like like for example, like I really don't um I definitely don't necessarily believe in limited atonement. I definitely don't necessarily believe in I definitely don't believe in perseverance of the saints. Like I I do believe you can apostasize unless you're salvation. Yeah. And I don't necessarily think that automatically means you didn't have it in the first place. I think that's a cop-out. So in that sense, I'm at least at most a three-point. But um total depravity has different questions, like even your understanding of total depravity. I would ask more questions about okay, what do you mean by sin? What do you mean by original? Like that has yeah, that you're carrying in concepts of original sin.

SPEAKER_04 31:06

It is it is ultimately the the Calvinism thing is is ultimately built around the predestination idea, um, and God is like fully predestined. And so thus the rendering of all a lot of these theological questions about man will render around the idea that like man essentially we might think we have a will, but actually, and that kind of leans into that. So it's like the idea that you can't lose your salvation. So essentially, Calvinists believe you you didn't actually choose it. Essentially, we'd say you didn't actually choose to be saved. God you did, but God worked in your will to allow you to choose to be saved, if they were speaking really technically, and so you might have said yes, but that yes was given to you by God. And then you ultimately um you ultimately can't walk away from your faith if God really worked, if he really, if it was really so it's the idea that like it was like genuine, Calvinists would say you can't do it reversible, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Like God truly intended to do something, it would be brought to life.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

But it's built on it's built on philosophy. I just can't see like specifically salvation one. We hit this last time, but the amount of times, you know, Paul's just like grieving over people who've walked away. And now I think, but I also think the it's really a both and because I don't, I mean, I wouldn't say I don't even I kind of hesitate to call myself like a to like to even give myself like a point, you know, of Calvinism because I have a high view of God's sovereignty, and I do think the philosophy like matters behind God's nature, and it's like like Bonhoeffer leans into a lot of this heavily and in the idea of like that God ultimately is like God you can only know God through God revealing God to you, and so it's like and so that but then that you know you people take that a step further and say, Well, then it's actually just at the end of the day, it's not your choice. And I'd say, well, no, God initiates every part of your salvation, he is the one who reveals to you, he is the one who saves you, he is the one who sanctifies you. Um, but because you're made, but I believe, you know, because you're made in the image of God and be and he gave you, he gifted you a will. That to me is what it means to be human. He gifted you the ability to choose that you can walk away from him, you can deny him. And um, and there's lots of great questions, you know. If people walk away and people will point to Jude and the you know, the question about the damned who are elected, set aside for doom. And so it's kind of like I'll honestly, it's like what my dad says, and it's not sad, it really is not a satisfying answer for a lot of this, but I honestly like a lot of it all works for me because God can kind of choose to do what he wants to do the way he wants to do it. And to me, that's like are we long time ago? We had yeah, we had that podcast episode about the personhood of God, and like the ultimate theology of God is God's agency.

unknown 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

And you have just go, yeah, that's exactly the point. And I say, Well, yeah, but God's agency the way God wants agency. So God could elect some people and not elect some people and still reveal himself to the other like he can do what he wants when he wants. That's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

Any system, any system placed upon him will ultimately fail. Is yeah, is placing a like pla placing an unquantifiable thing into into a box, you know. Right. It's impossible. You can't right.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

And and I think that where it gets to be really helpful is explaining like what what are doctrines, orthodox doctrine versus what are systems. And so like orthodox doctrines are like they don't orthodox doctrines don't have this technicality to them. They're like the raw components of faith that don't you don't dig deeper, like Jesus having two natures, Jesus being fully God and fully man. Like just there's just believe it.

SPEAKER_05 35:28

Yeah, there's no there's no wavering on that. You just you believe it by faith.

SPEAKER_04 35:33

This is not like a Calvinism is is like a and there's not a framework, there's not a framework through which there's not a frame through which to believe there's not a system through which to believe that. That's the rawest or like most raw form of Jesus, two natures, fully God, fully man.

SPEAKER_05 35:52

And it's like born of a virgin, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

And there's no it's just the creed, it's like anything beyond that will be helpful for understanding concepts, but will ultimately fail as human systems through which we understand God.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

Yeah, and so systems are like so influenced by the the culture the culture and the way you view the world. Yeah, like like uh if you were to try to explain like the even just like the framework of Calvinism to a like a sixth century Eastern Christian, like in the East, they would be like, Yeah, like I it's not it's not a matter of them not having the developed philosophy. It's like they're they're it's like one person is speaking about God in shapes and the other is speaking about God in numbers. It's like a different language, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

It's like literally like versus color is wrong and what is right.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

It's just like when you are operating with completely different language with how you view the world, it's difficult to translate. And and which is why you see Calvinism, even just the debate of Calvinism or Arminianism is a far more Western thing, particularly Western Protestantism. Right. Whereas the East doesn't ask those they doesn't have the same framework of question asking, they're asking different questions, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:12

And yeah, and within those frameworks are often going to be really helpful points, like the Calvinism emphasizing, you know, specifically the idea that God reveals God to you, you know, like the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to you, and Jesus brings you to the Father, like God reveals God to you and brings you to God. And and Calvinism really emphasizes that sovereignty and that upwards, that up, like that upwards momentum. And I think that's you know, I think that's such an important, beautiful framework. But the same thing in frameworks, there are like, in my opinion, belief beliefs that I can like fundamentally say on and say this is wrong and that this is dangerous and problematic. Like the idea of the idea of unconditional election, like it's dangerous and problematic. Um and should be like, you know, openly refuted as like this what you're what you're ultimately claiming about God is like crazy if you believe he elects people for damnation.

SPEAKER_05 38:23

Yeah, yeah. And I I honestly need to read more about Calvinism and Yeah, actual John, actually read Calvin. Yeah, like reformed bros.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

Well, it's interesting because we're well, it's weird because where my opinions come from, but it's weird because we were raised in a Calvinistic environment, technically. Like most of the people Calvinistic was just like assumed.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Like no one was out here teaching really any of them. Not in our churches. Like they were teaching all of them, but not teaching them like crazily, like this is the only way. It was it was just like the undergirding DNA of of the theology of our church.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Yeah, I remember like pastors, youth pastors being like, you got Armenianism and you got Calvinism, and we're Calvinists. You know, I remember hearing that and going, huh, interesting, sure. You know, of course that made because of my personality that made me go, I wonder what the Armenians believe. You know, that's just like that's what those guys believe. That's kind of what I anyways. There you go. That's Calvinism. In a summary, it emphasizes sovereignty of God, the lack of will of humans. A lot of things you'll hear if you ever hear someone say, like, uh a lost person is capable, an unbeliever is capable of doing no good. That is comes that belief comes from Calvinism. If you hear like heavy language about like the fallenness, Calvinism really emphasizes this the fallenness of humans. Yeah, high emphasis of original high emphasis on our sinfulness, on our evil nature, on um a high emphasis, thus on God's mercy, yeah, on the cross, a huge emphasis on how the blood specifically pardons us from sin, huge unjustification, but not an emphasis on the blood actually cleansing us from sin. So the Calvinism will often really emphasize the positional. This will talk a lot about our position in heaven, they'll talk a lot about our salvation, talk a lot about like our future justification, but it won't emphasize Arminianism will emphasize that, which you actually find more in sort of evangelical charismaticism now, care like Pentecostal, charismatic, Wesley, and and actually a ton of evangelic but it's bedtime.

SPEAKER_05 40:46

It's bedtime, friends. Oh goodness. Mercy God. Calvinism in a nutshell. Next time. Arminianism next.