The Fine Line between Public and Private Sector

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This week's episode sees this speaking with the owner Roberts. She's an experience with the CFO, operating the fine line between public and private sector ownership. She walks us through her career, from the fear of spiders that made her move into finance in the first place, through learning opportunities at the Accident Group, all the way up through to where she sits now at Network Rail Trend Express. She takes us through her love of infrastructure projects and why she is drawn to this industry. Bringing to life the challenges of running that public transport system, Fiona provides us a unique insight into skills and challenges in this unique sector. So let's start now.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Well, I got into finance because I really had an aspiration to be a veterinary surgeon. But I think that the one thing that you really get from succumbments and work experience, and when you're given that opportunity to go and try something out, is that you don't just find the things that you like, you find the things that you don't like. And what I find that I don't like is actually creepy crawlers and spiders. So whilst I love the furry animals, lots of them who come into veterinary surgeries unfortunately bring along their little friends with them. And I realized that I needed to really refocus on something that would be less traumatic in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Okay, okay. So finance, that's quite kind of a move away from veterinary science. That's quite a move. What was it about finance that kind of really attracted you to it?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Well, I suppose I the maths, the numerical side of things, the sciences, the things that drew me into veterinary science and I suppose that wider love of animals, when I started to really explore, well, what were the alternative jobs that I had out there? I started to realize that I had this real connection with numbers and bringing things to life, a bit of research, I I realised that actually accountancy might be that career for me. And actually I reshaped my my A levels actually and my degree around accounting and finance. So it's a decision that I made quite early on. Yeah, and I stuck with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

And what was that first job for you then? So coming out of you know, doing your accounting finance degree, coming out of uni, what was that first job you went into?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

So whilst I was at you at university itself, one of the things that I did was I worked at a local accountancy practice really one day a week and gave me that experience of real hands-on accounting. And so back when I was doing university, there was a lot of a lot of real manual accounts prep. And I wouldn't classify it as my first accounting job as such, but when I came out of university, having done that work experience, I moved into practice, a combination of being inspired by my tutor, who'd sort of come down the practice route and also the experience that I had. And what I really wanted to do in those early days was to get that really good account prep and audit foundation, which I think becomes the rock of what you sort of prepare and you're really driving the numbers on later in your career. But notwithstanding that, I always knew that I wanted to go and work in an industry in the end so that I could really work with a business to drive and shape its performance. And so I did my time doing the practice side of things, got the accountancy qualification numbers for the belt, spent some time in tax, and then looked at how how do you use those skill sets for the benefit of a business.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Okay, so what was that first job then coming out of practice and obviously tax, which is not for the faint-hearted? Where did you then take that? Who was the first kind of industry job you took?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So many of you might remember an industry which sprung out of the change to the legal aid regimes that we had back in the 1990s, and from that, a lot of planes companies sprung up. And I found myself in one of those planes companies in Manchester. And I was working there during those turbulent times where a lot of those companies also didn't survive, including the accident group, who the company that I worked for. What I would say is it was probably the greatest foundation of working with a business and working in a high-growth business where things are moving, the dynamic all the time, but also learning about the challenges and struggles and watching that business go through its decline and its collapse, discovering those problems. And what I would say is that as a result of that, I've always had a lean into working in fast-paced, high-change businesses and actually taking the skills that are learned around the mistakes and how you're growing through change and things that don't quite work properly. And how do you reshape and change the department that you're in? I think you've learned so much more when things aren't perfect than you do going into an organization and everything's just ticking over nicely. It it really sort of changes that learning experience and the pace of which you're forced through that curve of developing a skill.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And what do you think it was at you know at the accident group? What were the you know biggest challenges you came across and what were the skills that you could then take away?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I think there was two different angles to this. I think the first thing that I really observed, and I was quite junior in junior in my career at this stage, but I think stakeholder management and seeing what it takes from the finance leaders at the top of an organization to shape their colleagues in the peer group around them who are more sales and operationally focused, and that strength that you need to critically appraise and challenge that leadership team to do the right thing by the business. Despite the demise, demise of that organization, bizarrely, finance was the one team that was exonerated from blame. And that's quite an interesting position to be in when you're going through that situation because actually it was a financial collapse of the business. But the finance leaders were very transparent, very clear, they provisioned, they called out with the right regulatory bodies the challenges that it was going through. But the trading practices didn't support longevity of growth and getting the balance between cash flow and profitability. And I think probably most people who work in finance will appreciate that you can be as profitable on paper as you want to be. But if you don't have the right cash flow model coming in, your business won't survive for very long. So I think that was really sort of what I observed through the leadership side of things. From the more direct, relevant day-to-day side of my role, it was much more around learning new skills. It was a time where we were trying to deliver business plans, when the business was showing signs of struggling, we were doing due diligence work, we were working with third parties and lenders coming in trying to develop different business models. So, some really great opportunities to learn some really technical skills there. And actually, how do you how do you build quite complex models with actually Excel tools, which in those days were actually quite primitive and not many people had those skills, but here we are 20 odd years later, and people tell me that Excel is still the accountant's uh tool of choice.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, we'll come back and explore that in a bit. So coming out of the accident group, then obviously learned so much, you know, such an interesting time to be in that group and everything it went through. Where did you find yourself next?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

So the next step really marked what has been the rest of my career in terms of working in infrastructure businesses. From the accident group, I moved over to a business that at the time was called NCL. Over the years, NCL combined with another business and became uh what is now Virgin Media. So I spent a number of years working in telecommunications before then moving into the railway industry and network rail at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So that's quite an interesting, you know, telecoms is quite an interesting area to be in. What are the key kind of things that kind of mark telecoms out and why you find those infrastructure kind of projects so interesting and exciting?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

I think what I do is I talk about infrastructure generally, because you you say that broadband is actually quite exciting, but probably for the same reasons that railway is quite exciting. What you have are two large infrastructure businesses of a network rail, an open reach, and those infrastructure businesses effectively sell access to other operating companies who will then sell those services on to other third parties, whether that be business travel or consumers traveling on the railways, or whether that be home broadband or business broadband and connectivity services. So actually, what you've got is a lot of commonality between those businesses. How you interact on a regulatory basis, and they're both regulated businesses. For me, they're both communications businesses. Yes, one's a transportation business, but why do people travel? People travel to make connections and to communicate. So, and actually, I really love the concept of communications and reaching out to people and creating connections. And I think there's so much history in the businesses when you look at the engineering capabilities of the innovators that have made our world the world that it is today, it's it's a celebration of history as well as critical parts of every part of our everyday life. And I think actually to be good at the numbers, to really want to drive the business, you've got to love the business and be interested in what the business does are and the purpose that it's delivering. So, yeah, for me, infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, and it's interesting actually, because there's, you know, there's quite a few CFOs I've spoken to that say the same thing. You have to love what you're doing if you're really going to excel at, you know, in the finance role. Like when you look at telecoms and and railway, which is where you are now, obviously you mentioned that they're highly regulated. What does that mean from a finance function when you're working in those regulated markets in that way?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

So I think whilst there's lots of commonalities with the private sector, so how you how you account doesn't change. But the scrutiny over what you deliver and how you deliver it is so much heightened. And the interaction with the stakeholders and the number of stakeholders in that space. Very much our journey as a regulator business is about making sure that we're driving value for money and delivering those services and using public money wisely. And that means that you're going to get a lot of political scrutiny over those numbers. It's going to bring a higher regulatory burden as people interrogate the numbers. So you don't just have your end-of-year audit, all the time you are reporting to different regulatory bodies. And the control mechanisms that you need to run within your business are quite different to if you're running in a SME business where you have that greater degree of freedom to make your own choices. Obviously, you don't have that same level of freedom. That means that you've got to think about your decision making a little bit sooner. It might take you longer to be able to push through some of those financial hurdles to really support the business with its strategic direction. But it's also incredibly satisfying to know that you've been able to deliver that public service. And I think, especially in the railways, we are not just an organization which is scrutinized from a financial perspective. It's the social and the economic impacts that you bring to the communities who are around you. So we have that real ability to drive the economy in the regions where we operate and to bring social value, whether that's opening up accessibility to our passengers and making sure that everyone has that equal opportunity to be able to travel and to live their lives, bring in housing and moving social demographics by having opportunities to travel to work and just flowing the economy.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, it's because Network Rail, interestingly, you know, I don't think anyone really appreciates quite how big an organization that is, and actually how how many different stakeholders are actually scrutinising what you do and have an opinion on it.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And and today, I I actually work in TransPenine Express today. So I'm I'm sort of now I've moved from the infrastructure side into the train operator side of the organization. So I I've I've been very privileged to be able to see this industry from both sides of that fence and actually working with an industry which is actually coming together and bringing everyone back under Great British Railways so that we can drive even more efficiency and effectiveness of decision making through that organization. Especially within the train operators, your stakeholders will range from your passengers who directly travel on your services, but also taxpayers who maybe don't use your services but contribute towards the running and operation of the railways. You've got your mayoral authorities who are interested in the growth of their regions and doing the right things by the people who live in those communities. And then you've got central government who have a heavy influence on the funding and actually what we can deliver. And that longer-term picture in terms of actually what is the right decision making for the infrastructure with within your different regions.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

That's that's a lot of very different stakeholders, actually. So you know, what skills do you need to be able to manage, you know, such a wide range of different opinions and different stakeholders like that?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

I I suppose the the technical side of knowing your numbers is a given. So beyond knowing your subject matter, it's very much about relationship building, it's about understanding those different stakeholders and the perspectives that they're coming from and their different drivers, really listening to them and approaching stakeholder relationship is a partnership, is it's not a one-way street, it's it's a conversation. And how do you meet in the middle to get the best out of those relationships and to deliver effectively? And how do you tell the story of the trade-offs that need to be made so that you all come to a more common understanding, even if it's not necessarily something that someone agrees with and that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted for them, but at least there's an appreciation of those different challenges on the table.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

How important do you think it is these soft skills? You know, you know, particularly in in leadership, and particularly given you're kind of treading that fine line between public and private sector, how important is getting those soft skills right?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

The majority of the role nowadays feels like it's about getting those roles right, actually. It's I suppose more now, and especially working in the trade operator side of the business. And actually, I'm very fortunate that I'm given a lot of opportunities to interact across the industry. I think from how I work with my counterparts and other operating companies and how I learn the skills and learn the business, the opportunities that we create between ourselves by watching how we each run each other's businesses and the learnings that you can take. And then how do you sort of take that to interact with the people who are who you who are the governing bodies and stuff like that? And actually, it's really important to have fun in your job as well, isn't it? So actually, the better you can make your relationships and you can have a laugh with them, but at the same time, know that you've got that really serious part, the easier it is to actually do your job because you'll enjoy coming in once you've built the relationships. When those relationships break down, then it's really hard because often the stakeholders that you're liaising with may be the people who are championing your cause within different arenas as well. So, yeah, critical.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Interesting though, you you mentioned kind of sometimes these relationships can break down. You know, what do you do and what advice can you give people when when that happens if you know somebody else is listening to this and is also having some challenging kind of conversations with stakeholders?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, I mean, right relationships can definitely break down in in any business or any industry and even just between teams. I I think the first thing is really just recognizing that maybe things are feeling a little bit challenging. And trying to sort of maybe just step back with a little bit of take your own hat off for a minute and maybe sort of try to put their hat on, understand the perspectives that they're coming from, what are the pressures that maybe they're feeling, what does success look like for them, and actually where's your negotiation point? Don't don't just talk about the things that you have to talk about, try to build up that that sort of, I suppose, a bit more of a personal touch and build up the trust within the relationship. And actually, if you say that you're going to do something, do it, because actually it's the little things that will talk in terms of the trust element of it. And I I always think that language is really important when you when you're talking with with colleagues, with stakeholders, with anyone really. It's like the odd loose words here, a bit of like blame coming into the language there. But it doesn't help your relationships. So just really, I suppose a little bit of reflection, working with them to see if you can renavigate a change of direction.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's interesting, you know, the more we talk, we're not really talking about what would be traditionally seen as a CFO role, actually. Um, traditionally we've been very much countered, but a lot of what we're talking about here is is relationships and stakeholder management. You know, how much do you think that role, the CFO role, has changed and the expectations are different today than they were, say, 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I think that the CFO role today is so much more than just the numbers. I think if we look back probably 20 years ago, your CFO was probably locked in an office, and you probably had a bit of peace and quiet, none of that open plan stuff where people can just wear your open 24 hours to uh to everyone sort of coming in, and and you were maybe just very, very like critically appraising the finances all the time. But actually, today you your CFO roles are so much broader for all the functions that you might be overseeing. So I have procurement and audit and IT within the remit as well as the traditional finance functions. So I think the breadth of the role that we have, the real partnership with your managing directors or your CEOs, you're you're there to support, but you're also that critical sounding board. You've got to have the really great relationship and to have the trust to know when you can push back and how you get that balance because that balance is really important. Your CEO, the MD, they're going to have a lot of innovative drive. But actually, I think over the past sort of 20 years or so, your CFOs expected to have innovation and bring ideas to the table as well. But we're still expected to have financial governance and rigour and to make sure we look after the financials of the company on top of that.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, it's quite a balance to make, really, isn't it? There's quite a quite a round-raging role. And it and I think that's what makes it so exciting, actually, at this point.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

I absolutely agree. That is actually where all the fun of the role comes. And actually, I always say the closer you can get to the business, go out there, meet the people, meet your front line who are driving the value through the business and hear their voices. And then your role is to sort of come back in and realise the vision and the strategy of where you go into. But it makes it so much fun. The people at the front line, they tell you the stories. And I am really lucky that where I am, I get to go out on the railways and go to the stations and I meet conductors and station staff, and they'll tell me the stories about their life, which in turn I can bring back into the office and actually drive improvements and look for where we need to maybe support investments or maybe it's business processes such. as payroll, but all of that's just learning that you can bring back into your day job to make everyone's life a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

How important do you think then it is for you know finance leaders, even when they get to the top, to go back down into the business and really talk to people on, you know, on shop floors, conductors in your industry, you know, how important is that do you think?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

I think that as you asked me that question today, and if I look back eight months ago, I will say that it's very important. And my answer is more positive within that now than even maybe I realized it was eight months ago and I thought it was important eight months ago. But especially when you're working with a very diverse and a geographically spread out workforce, they are the face of your business to your customers. And actually if you can understand your people and the experiences that your colleagues are going through, then you will understand where the pain points are for your customers. And you want to have that really positive effect on your colleagues so that they in turn can share that positivity down through that customer experience. What is a business if it's not about driving customer experience because actually you're you may be looking after your numbers but your growth potential comes from the fact that customers want to spend their really hard-earned money with your business and everyone has the right not to and to go somewhere else if you don't get that experience right. And likewise your people if you don't understand their journey everyone has the option to go somewhere else. And actually you need to really look after your people because they're but for all of the AI, when you're in a customer facing business, your people are your business.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

So that's really interesting that you mentioned the world of AI. How has that changed things at TransPennine Express so far? And how do you see that affecting finance in your industry over the next kind of five, 10 years?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

I think when you look at the talk about AI maybe a couple of years ago if you talked to the AI professionals they just told you that by now we wouldn't have any accountants and finance professionals left. But then they've also been saying we don't have any Excel anymore. So uh we haven't got rid of that. Absolutely not so I think it's I think it's it's definitely moving at pace whether it's that I I think I like to think about AI to some extent it it's that sort of useful work colleague that you're always bumping by the what bump into by the water cooler. You say oh can I just ask you whilst I've got you it gives you a leg up because you can jump a couple of steps forwards but actually we don't have the ability to fully rely on it yet because it's still a learning tool in itself to fully rely on it. So it's a sort of it's a sort of friend who might tell you a bit of gossip and it might tell you a little bit of truth and somewhere in the middle so you still need to do your fact checking is I think the first sort of word of caution and I think as as a business and and within my finance function what was what we're using is at the moment that ability to sort of step up some automation looking at how does it give us a direction of travel and then after we've got outputs also if we've created something how can we review that how can we refine it how can we make sure that the tone and the fit and the audience when we're doing the reporting is right. So it's definitely saving time and it's definitely giving us direction obviously there's tools out there I think AI doesn't sit in isolation you've got other technical products through from automation, machine learning and AI and they all have different roles and different places within that journey to eliminating the churn as I'd want to call it so that you can really start to focus on the value add and actually what what do we bring to an organization that's unique to us as human beings?

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

And it will change our workforce as a result of that.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Okay how do you think what's you know what do you think that'll look like that you know when you say changing workforce what do you mean there?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

I think what the real challenges and and this isn't just a challenge for the business that I work in or even the industry or the type of role we do but when we look at AI and a lot of the tools the opportunity in the first instance and the easiest way you can really exploit its technology today is by taking away some of those really hands-on lower technical complexity roles. So where do you need to just process information that doesn't need some level of decision making us ad hoc decision making and interaction in it. And the challenge with that as you move through your career is that there may be parts of your learning journey that used to be more naturally available as I was coming through the journey than will be available for the next generation who are coming through that. So I think it's and part of that journey teaches you some of the areas where you might might ask those more sort of strategic critical questions because you actually understand how those financials have been derived and driven in the first place. And I suppose it's just how how do you sort of overcome that sort of journey we're going to have to teach our workforces in the future how to learn and how to develop those skills in a different way to how we have done differently. So it's going to change who we employ the types of roles we employ how we train people and also what they need to know. We need to critically evaluate actually what is it that they need to know for the future to be successful. So it's it's got so many facets to it.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I know it's a really interesting topic and I think um you know you echo actually quite a lot of what a lot of CFOs say that say actually a lot of the groundwork we you know that where people have worked you know at the at the lower level has actually helped set them up to be where they are today.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

What happens if that disappears what's next for the railway but also what's next for you personally so in terms of the railway at the moment our big focus is outside of obviously operating reliable um trains easier said than done definitely easier said than done but as we look to the future it's about bringing the railways under Great British Railways and integrating the track the infrastructure the business with the trains that operate on that infrastructure how can we work together to bring all those organisations under a single banner to really drive a more reliable and more efficient railway for the benefit of the travelling passengers and for the benefit of the of the taxpayers who contribute towards the industry and how we sustain it. And making sure that on that journey we don't lose sight of the social value we bring, the economic value we bring and making sure that we do it within safe ways of working to make sure that it it is a dangerous job working within the life railways themselves and we need to get everyone home safe every day really.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay okay it sounds like a really interesting project I imagine that is a long-term project and we're talking probably years at this point.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Well it's just going through the the bills of parliament at the moment so it's in its formative stages at the moment with some quite rapid progress in terms of the thinking the shaping of it and getting ready to mobilize but yeah it still needs to hit those final stages of approval and challenge yet exciting exciting it is really exciting actually.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Yeah and what does that mean for you then Fiona?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

You know obviously you've got these great big projects that are kind of in the wings ready and waiting what does the future hold then for you and your role as it stands it's one of those questions that throughout my career I always like to see where it flows and where it goes to I've got to where I am by trying to bring real value to to the people that I support and to the teams that I lead. So I'm sure that there will be many different opportunities within the new organisation and I'd really just like to have that opportunity to to come and drive a positive culture with a great focus on reducing the the net subsidy but delivering the the greatest experience for our passengers. I want to see ways move in that direction where it's it retains its right as a piece of heritage that many people still look on today with homelessness rather than with complaint. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So so you know it sounds like you take your career very much as it comes and see what in as long as you're adding value you're you're in a in a good space.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I think I've got to enjoy doing what I do uh I think I I generally look at characteristics of what I want to do more than I look at job titles. So I think as long as it's dynamic, I really like working in changing environments. So I don't want to get stale and I like to have not really know what I'm waking up to in the morning. So uh I could I can respond accordingly which I suppose is the way that shape my career that uh let's see what's round the corner but let's not get too hung up on on the finer points and the details. So uh but I'm sure with the direction of the industry going there's going to be lots of change and lots of challenge and I definitely know what I'll don't know what I'm getting up to tomorrow. So I'm fairly confident that one way or the other it's going to be right for me.