Cast Bold. Lead Bright with Mickey Fitch-Collins | Ship's Log #23

Episode Summary 

In this episode of Project Candor, host Jeanne welcomes Mickey Fitch-Collins, PhD — leadership facilitator, speaker, and host of The Learnit Lounge — for a candid conversation about what it takes to lead with both joy and depth. Mickey's story is anything but linear: she was a professional bass fisherman at 14, a college student leader when 9/11 happened, and someone who turned getting fired into a professional turning point. 

 Mickey and Jeanne dive into the hidden exhaustion of middle managers, the trap of "productivity theater" and the Busy Olympics, and what it really means to build a career on relationships — one at a time. The episode closes with a lively round of Two Truths and a Lie that will surprise you. 

Guest Bio

Mickey Fitch-Collins, PhD (she/her) is not your average leadership skills facilitator. With a PhD in Leadership in Higher Education and a career that spans academia, educational technology, and corporate training, Mickey brings a collection of L&D "goods, bads, and uglies" to the table. 

 At Learnit, she specializes in transforming human skills — like communication, empathy, and resilience — into actionable strategies that drive organizational success from the individual outward. From teaching people how to fish (literally), to helping her peers navigate 9/11, to managing diverse teams across various sectors, Mickey's career is a testament to adaptability and authentic leadership. 

 Her speaking and workshops blend scholarly insight and relatable storytelling with humor and real-world applications. She's the kind of guest who doesn't just share ideas — she sparks conversations that linger long after the episode ends. 

 Mickey is also the host of The Learnit Lounge podcast. 

Website: https://www.learnit.com/mickey 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickeyfitchcollins/ 

Podcast: The Learnit Lounge: https://www.learnit.com/podcast

Free 45-Day TeamPass: https://www.learnit.com/mickey — use code LOUNGE at checkout 

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Transcript

Introduction & guest welcome (Mickey Fitch-Collins)

Mickey Fitch-Collins 0:02

I had folks that I was interviewing that experienced heart attacks, that were experiencing significant, I mean significant other health issues, all this sort of stuff, because of this productivity, you know, uh busy Olympics sort of stuff, and this isolation and burnout sort of stuff that middle managers are having. And I talk about this as much as I can with folks because I just think that there's this idea of, well, if we just leave middle managers alone, they're fine, right? Like they're doing important work for the organization. But they are, you know, people always say it's lonely at the top.

Jeanne 0:41

Welcome

First impressions & what people get wrong

Jeanne 0:42

to Project Candor. Today we have a fantastic guest, Mickey Fitch -Collins. Before we begin, I'm going to share a few of Mickey's highlights. But just know we're saving some really good surprises for the end when we play two truths and a lie. So stay with us. Now I have to tell you something. When I first spoke with Mickey about coming on the podcast, I was not prepared. I was not prepared to meet this wonderful on fire personality who absolutely exudes happiness and energy. She brings this combination of depth and joy that fills the room even through a screen. Mickey holds a PhD in leadership in higher education and has built a career that spans academia, educational technology, and corporate learning. She's worked from the front lines all the way to the C-suite. Her leadership philosophy was reshaped in the wake of 9-11. And during what she calls her great discernment, she made a bold pivot into learning and development. Today she helps people get better at their work, one relationship at a time. Mickey, thank you for honoring us. Welcome aboard. Oh my gosh.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 1:50

Thank you, Jeanne, so much for the opportunity. And I feel so warm and fuzzy on the inside with that intro. Um uh we we did. We had such a lovely conversation in in, you know, our first opportunity meeting and and preparing for the show here. So I've been thinking so much and I've been reflecting so much on that conversation. So I I'm glad to know that the uh the energy exchange is mutual there.

Jeanne 2:10

Yes, it definitely was. I was so happy after I got off that call.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 2:15

I love it.

Jeanne 2:16

All right, so what we'll do was start with some questions up first so we can get to know you. So are you ready to go? Absolutely. Let's roll. Wonderful. Um, I shared what stuck with me when I first met you, that joyful on fire energy. So when people meet you for the first time, what do you think they often get wrong about you? Oh wow. Goodness.

Balancing confidence & competence at a young age

Mickey Fitch-Collins 2:39

That is such a good question. I think the thing that people probably get wrong about me is that um I'm a goofball all the time. Because I I come off as I'm kind of one of those like you get what you see sort of people, you know, and um, or you see what you get, what however that phrase goes, I'm a very authentic presence. And I like to uh joke, I like to have a good time, I like to look for, I think especially these days, you know, finding those moments of levity and bringing a little bit of humor, I think is really important to new relationships. And I think a lot of people, there's a lot of folks that get really nervous when they're meeting new people or they're in social settings or, you know, whatever. And and you know, I experience some of that too. And I think one of the challenges sometimes is that folks don't realize that I have this serious side to me too, that I'm not just this like playful teddy bear sort of person, but that I do have a serious side, that I'm not all jokes and and not all fun. And, you know, that's kind of bit me a couple of times in my role as a supervisor on different teams and stuff, right? Of like people being like, wait a minute, like what happened to fun, playful Mickey here? And I'm like, you know, there's I'm a Gemini, there's two sides, you know, the twins, right? Like there's two sides of Mickey.

Jeanne 3:53

Right. I find it fun to meet new people, but I also find it, you know, like a little stressful. It's just you don't know that person really, but then you wish you could get through that first part and be at that normalization stage.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 4:07

Yeah.

Jeanne 4:08

And when you just know them and you feel comfortable with them, but that's a great answer, thank you. Um, you begin building a professional career as a teenager. When we think about young prodigies, whether it's someone like Leanne Rhimes, or you know, she had blue at released blue at thirteen and then was a Grammy winner at 14. So I threw her in. Or Pablo Picasso, who reportedly was drawing before he could talk, or Magnus Carlson, who became a chess sh grandmaster at 13. And I had to throw in Magnus because that's my husband's name. There's obvious talent, but there's also enormous pressure. Without giving away your headline, what kind of inner backbone did you have to grow to hold your own in a room full of adults? And what did it require of you emotionally?

Performing under pressure as a teenager

Mickey Fitch-Collins 4:57

I think some of the greatest challenges are for you know, I I see this actually watching the Olympics right now, like the winter Olympics. Just last night, you know, I was watching, and you know, these teenagers flying down these, you know, slalom, you know, hills and on the ice and luge and all this sort of stuff. And there is a ton of pressure to perform, right? Everybody has a ton of pressure to perform, especially in the workplace, right? But also in our personal lives, right? We have a lot of stated and unstated expectations that we have of one another as human beings. And I think one of the greatest challenges is for young people, whether they're kid, you know, kid actors, athletes, you know, academics, you know, whatever it is, when kids are put in the same arena as adults. And there's that backbone that you mentioned, there's so much to that because there's a competence component of like, can you actually hold your own in conversations or whatever the task or whatever the thing is that you're supposed to do, whether it's acting or skiing or or whatever that might be. Um, so there's the competence piece, but there's also the confidence. And, you know, I mean, I'm I'm sure you've heard that phrase of, you know, fake it till you make it, right? Of like, oh, you know, people like just pretend. Um actually, you know, I I heard it stated really well. I was listening to a podcast, uh, Tim Ferris, he's a fantastic guy. I love listening to his podcast. I had a guest on the other day and because kind of talking about the the importance of acting as if, because if we act as if, then the rest of our our traits and capabilities and skills might follow. That was a really big thing for me as a teenager when I had to go into these rooms and I had that pressure to perform was okay, do I know what I'm talking about? Right. So the competence piece, but the confidence was I just need to start acting as though I'm just like everybody else in the room, right? That like I deserve to be here just as much as everybody else. And that was really hard because for for a while, like it did feel like I was faking it, right? And I hadn't necessarily at that time heard that phrase, like fake it till you make it, sort of thing. Um, you know, I feel like that's something that we don't really hear until we're, you know, kind of into our young adulthood or whatnot. So I think the balance of the confidence and competence piece, but for me, to build that that spine or that backbone with strength really was pouring into competence and and really studying my craft and really, I mean, that that was my world. I I became obsessive with the thing that brought me into the room. And so that I knew there were certain situations and places when I was in the room with grown adults, with people that were two, three, four times my age. I knew I knew more than them, right? And so that knowledge piece, knowledge is power, right? Like knowledge does become a powerful component. And so, like, as I built that competence, that then brought this confidence piece into it as well.

Learning as a lifelong advantage

Jeanne 7:56

That's wonderful. It's uh amazing that you could hold your your still youthful nature, yeah, knowing that you as a young performer without giving anything away, I'd still try to, you know, see an adult and think, why are they not understanding this concept?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 8:16

Right, right. And and trying to, you know, I mean, I think at that time, you know, I was 14, 15, 16 years old, right? I mean, you're still absolutely finding myself, right? I mean, I was massively still in in identity formation and kind of discovering like who is Mickey and, you know, all this sort of stuff. But what I realized in in those moments, and I I probably realized it earlier, but learning is such a core value to me. You know, I mean, it is, it is absolutely, I mean, from the day I could read, you know, um, this this whole entire world. I mean, I'm watching this. I have a five-year-old daughter and a two-year-old son. I'm watching this of my daughter as she's learning, she's kind of early stages reading right now. And, you know, you can see that broadening of like, oh my gosh, like there's this whole entire world of understanding and learning and knowing that's out there. And that was what gave me strength was I have the ability to learn and grow. And for me, this was pre-social media, this was pre-Youtube, pre-internet, you know, all of this sort of stuff. But still I felt like as long as I build my competence, like as long as I learn and and obsess over my craft, over what I was performing in, that everything else will come with that. Right. And I remember kind of thinking like having those thoughts in in a more you know, rudimentary teenage sort of way, but I remember having those thoughts of like, I just as long as I continue to learn and grow, as long as I continue to learn and grow, I will be better, I can be better, I will continue to be better. I still feel that way as an adult.

Jeanne 9:47

Oh, good. Uh I don't know that I had that much energy when I approached something that I'm doing, but that is a fantastic attitude. So you spent time in competitive outdoor environments that are traditionally male dominated. So, what does it take for a woman, especially a young woman, to command respect in spaces when she's not the expected voice?

Finding your voice in male-dominated spaces

Mickey Fitch-Collins 10:10

Yeah. That was that was really hard, right? So, yes, this competitive outdoor environment that I was in, predominantly male, predominantly southern. I was a kid at the time. I grew up in the uh south suburbs of Chicago, so definitely a northerner. So predominantly male, predominantly southern United States, very traditional. And for me, I'm coming into that as a 14, 15-year-old girl who's also going through the identity formation process of realizing, well, I am not like everybody else, kind of going through the process and recognizing like that, you know, that in those early stages, that was my earliest recognition of like, oh, I don't think that I am a heterosexual person, right? So like one of these is not like the others, sort of thing. And, you know, there were women that were in that space, but they were mostly middle-aged women, mid-50s, early 60s, very much kind of this blonde bombshell, like very made up, you know. I mean, just totally different sort of thing. And I was looking at that and I'm like, I don't fit that either, because the look, you know, this persona that these women were wearing, I was like, that's not my jam. And like, that doesn't make sense for what we're doing anyway, right? I see this all the time too with again a variety of different sports of like, still, why are women expected to be fully made up and hair fully done and all this sort of stuff? And the men look like trash, you know, and and but it's the same sport. So there was that piece. I think the other piece too was for me was just building this capacity to own my voice and own my presence to captivate a room, to captivate a crowd. And that was one of the things that, in essence, that I that I compensated, and I put that in air quotes, but compensated for being a minoritized person in that sort of environment. It was really hard, I think, too, because in this competitive outdoor environment, there were, as I would say, men behaving badly, okay? Derogatory comments about women, about other underrepresented folks, right? And I am a woman. I am, again, going through this identity formation process of realizing that I'm a gay woman. And I'm also hearing comments about non-white people, people with disabilities, you know, all this sort of stuff, and realizing like this is a very uncomfortable environment, and I still need to be able to compete in this environment. And so some of that was just kind of learning how to thicken my

Earning respect & creating change in tough environments

Mickey Fitch-Collins 12:50

skin, but also learning how to find the words to confront some of that stuff too. And when I started doing some of that, right, what happened was there was a ripple effect, right? To the men that I was part of these different teams and different organizations, right? There was a behavior change of like, hey, she's one of us, right? Like she's she's part of us, she's part of this team and a very cool part of this team, a very different part of this team. We have in her, we have something very different than other organizations do. And so, like, let's prop her up. And there's so there was this shift that happened. Yeah, that was it was a wonderful shift, absolutely, right? And these guys were, I mean, some of the younger ones, I mean, kind of function as kind of like older brother types, but a lot of them were like my dad's age. And I was a minor at the time doing this sort of stuff. So my dad was always with me at all of these things, right? So, I mean, there were these guys that were like kind of like secondary, like uncle sort of guys, you know, that just became this crew that I was a part of that, and it did shift and change, right? But it was hard for me, especially because people wanted to really, really headline on the girl thing, right? Like, oh my gosh, you're a girl doing this. Like, how can girls possibly do this? And I was always befuddled by that. And I still, you know, as somebody in my mid-40s, I still am befuddled by it because it's like girls can do all of the things that boys can do. Women can do all of the things that men can do. Like, why we think that there's this, oh, because you're this, then you can't do that, was always so confusing to me because I'm like, I was raised, I mean, the way that my parents raised me was like, yeah, you're you're doing this competitive outdoor thing, and like you just you're nailing it. Like, just do it, keep doing it. There was no like, oh, maybe you shouldn't do this because you're a girl, right? That never happened.

Jeanne 14:32

Oh, that's so good that your parents were very supportive and that they did not put you down for what you wanted to do. Were they also involved without again saying what it was? Is were they also involved?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 14:44

Yeah,

Family support & early foundations

Mickey Fitch-Collins 14:45

you know, my dad was very front and center, was always present again because I was under 18. You know, there was kind of his presence was needed for legality sort of stuff and things of that sort. He had to sign all the paperwork and like, you know, all that. And then there was, you know, finances and stuff. And so my parents were definitely involved in in all those pieces. My mom was a huge support. She, you know, was always making sure that I was like prepped and ready to go. And, you know, that she was a huge, I would call her like the operations specialist. Like she always made sure that I was prepared, I was ready to go, I had all of the gear that I needed, I had all of my specialized clothing that I needed to have, like, you know, all of those sort of things. She was the operation specialist uh when it when it came to me doing what I was doing. And my dad was really there on the sidelines, you know. I mean, and these were the days, again, this is about 30 years ago. These were the days of, you know, buying film canister, you know, and putting in taking all these pictures. He's just taking just dozens and dozens, hundreds of pictures all the time, putting together, you know, carousels, you know, slide carousels of photos and all this, that sort of thing, and really helping me a lot with a lot of like the business aspects and marketing aspects. And so, yeah, it was very much um, and you know, my my sister, you know, when I was doing this, she was, you know, late high school, early college. And so she was kind of doing her own thing, but she was excited for me.

Jeanne 16:06

Oh. I guess I was asking from the aspect of who introduced you to this activity. Was it your dad or mom?

How it all started & early recognition

Mickey Fitch-Collins 16:14

Yeah, it was, I mean, where I grew up, you know, the again, without giving it away, the activity was very prevalent where I grew up. And uh, so it was just something that I did as a little one that my parents, it was, you know, kind of those things that you get into when you're kind of a young toddler and all that sort of stuff. And then I met some people that were doing this sort of thing professionally, and uh started kind of coming around, sniffing around and kind of saying, like, well, I think I could do that, right? And started kind of doing it in an amateur sort of function, as people do with these kind of competitive outdoor sort of things. You start kind of doing it in an amateur kind of local sort of piece, and there started being some media coverage about me. And again, I I grew up in the Chicago area, and so you know, the the Chicago uh Tribune and the Chicago Sun-Times, the big newspapers, again, you know, 30 years ago, you know, so I mean the newspapers started picking up and some of the TV shows and stuff like that. And then that's when things really catapulted for me to the national level, and I started getting pulled into some of these larger companies and organizations um to be doing this uh on a professional level, which was wild, right? Because I was just a teenage kid in high school, you know. Oh name some TV shows. Sure. Um, for anybody that's is in the Midwest that's watching or listening, Midwest Outdoors, this is gonna start kind of giving uh some of uh perhaps some of this stuff away.

Jeanne 17:29

Okay, okay, maybe we should stop. Yeah. We'll wait, we'll wait on that.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 17:33

But I was on, I mean, thinking about like networks and things like that. I um was on ESPN and Fox Sports at one point, and again, this is mid-90s. I had an invitation to uh meet Oprah and do like a small snippet on the Oprah show when she was still based in Chicago. And uh yeah, so I I I got the opportunity to do some larger scale media pieces.

9/11 and a defining leadership shift

Jeanne 17:56

Nice. That's so exciting. I can't even imagine. All right, let's go on before I get into too much of your reveal. So two weeks into one of your early leadership roles, 9-11 happened. You said it reshaped your leadership philosophy in a matter of minutes. What changed in you that day that still shapes you and how you lead today?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 18:20

Yeah, yeah. You know, all of us that were live, you know, which is, you know, what if it's it's funny sometimes to me that I'm interacting with people professionally that some some folks weren't alive, you know, when when 9-11 happened. But for the rest of us, right, we all have our 9-11 story, right? Where were we and what was going on and stuff. For me, that was the start of my junior year of college. And I had gotten, I had gotten a job as a student leader in the residence halls and the dorms on campus. And I had gotten this job kind of on the skin of my teeth. I was a little bit of a troublemaker in college. I was a good community builder, we could say, um, but I was building community around the wrong things and kind of outside the policies and all this sort of stuff. And I had applied for this student leadership role and kind of, you know, got the role, I think, by the skin of my teeth of like, hopefully you behave, right? Because now we're expecting you to lead other students and stuff. And so my job was essentially in this residence hall of, you know, three, four hundred people, was to be the leader on the floor to help kind of, you know, students navigate college and make friends and you know, have a good time, right? And we had gone through uh before the start of the school year in August, we had gone through a couple of weeks of training, right? And most of that training stuff was like understand like how do you build social gatherings and how do you get people to like meet one another, like learning icebreakers and you know, like all of those sort of super fun things, but it was it was about the fun and the social stuff. And then you fast forward to my second week in that job, and 9-11 happens. And you know, again, everybody has their stories and their parts and pieces of kind of where were you in and and what was going on and all this sort of stuff. But in that day and the next 48 hours or so, what I realized was my job was not about beer float parties and getting people together to watch Packers games or anything like that for anybody who's you know listening and watching. I live in Wisconsin, you could probably all already tell that on my accent. But, you know, that was not my job anymore. My job was to figure out with my peers how do we navigate what is happening in our country. Because nobody, again, within those first couple of days, I think everybody was like, is it gonna happen again? Right? Like, is this is there something else that's gonna happen today or or tomorrow, right? I mean, I think everybody was kind of on pins and needles. And also, right, people were starting to find out the loss of loved ones and friends and family. I also, what I share with people too, is that I I firmly believe that my generation of folks that were going through college, that was the last generation of kids that went through the ROTC programs as a way to finance their education, right? And so I had a number of students, you know, my peers that were on the floor that were in ROTC programs that were, you know, kind of part and parcel to National Guard that then started, you know, kind of becoming like pulled into National Guard. I had other folks that were in National Guard that then were became deployed like very immediately in the in the weeks after, which was bonkers to me, right? Because I'm like, what?

Learning to simply be with people

Jeanne 21:34

Yeah, you still have to finish your education. Where are you going? Right.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 21:37

You know, and and too young. Yes, yes. And just realizing that like and somewhere in here, and of course, like most universities, you know, classes were paused for a couple of days and stuff. But I remember our leadership team, you know, our our team of student staff with our professional staff member. I remember us, I I can remember it like it was yesterday, even though it was you know, twenty five years ago, gathering up. And us being like, what do we do? And the conversation was just like, we just need to learn to be with people. And uh what that shaped for me was that exactly, is like, you just need to learn how to be with people. How do you be with people when you don't know what to say? How do you be with people when there isn't anything to say? How do you be with people when there's no words to describe what you're thinking or feeling? There's no solution to what's going on. And for all of us at that point, right, you know, we're we're 20 years old. We had lived, I mean, we were tennish or so years old when Desert Storm and stuff happened, right? Wrap your yellow ribbon around your tree. But that felt very far off. It felt very distant. It felt very much It was not in the United States. No. Well, yeah. I mean, it literally was distant. But it was this thing that was on the TV, right? And this was a thing that was in the country. This was a thing that was affecting our families and our friends. And it touched the biggest city in the United States, and it was devastating to watch. Yeah. And what changed for me in terms of my leadership philosophy was recognizing that it's not about how many people can I get to attend this program or attend this event or how much fun did people have, or, you know, whatever. You know, how crazy were the shenanigans that we got into, right? What changed in my leadership philosophy was I recognized that that one of the best skills, one of the best things that I could do for other humans is to just like share space with them and to talk with them and get to know them and be with them. And relationship building, right? I mean, that to me has always been since then I am a relationship builder, I'm a bridge maker, I'm a bridge repair person, whatever it is. I mean, that is my primary thing. I I jokingly tell people is I can build a relationship with a sneaker if you put it in front of me, right? But I think that it started with the teenage years, right? And what I was doing in my teenage years, but going through the crisis of 9-11 really codified my role is to lead other people one relationship at a time.

Jeanne 24:20

Yeah,

Redefining leadership through relationships

Jeanne 24:21

and some kind of traumas and stuff, I always learned that the best thing is is to just like you said, be with people, but just acknowledge we're breathing, we're still breathing, just keep breathing, just to be calm, just keep breathing. Because something like that was I mean, I have my own story, but I won't go into it. But it's um it's something that changes you. And if it doesn't change you, then you better think about yourself a little bit more deeply about oh yeah. It's like you're not if you're that numb to it, then oh, we've got a problem here.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 24:54

Yeah, I mean, I I think about and I'm sure there's thousands of people that are the same way, but I mean I think about that probably on a weekly basis, right? And what I've learned from that, what I've gleaned from that shifts and changes over the years, right? Like I'm still learning from that experience, and that really, really impacts kind of the way that I show up with other people and what I consider to be important, right? Like it's it's not, you know, how many people showed up and how again, like these other these superficial metrics of what we consider to be success, like that went out the window for me as as a 20-year-old, you know, and it and it redefined it got redefined by this crisis, this national crisis of just like what is actually valuable, what is actually important, and it's the people right in front of you, right? It's the person sitting next to you.

Jeanne 25:48

Yeah, it's kind of like that words in a song, I think, of it in probably not even just in a song, but they call it the age of innocence. It's gone. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah, totally. Well, that is a depressing thought, but it's it's good that it shaped you in a way to build you for the future because I know, like I read, you have your PhD now and you are working with people, so that's probably what's the start of that. Absolutely. So you talk about middle managers as the emotional shock absorbers of organizations. So why are so many of them quietly exhausted? And how much of that comes from what you call productivity theater? I've never heard of that. So, what are we performing instead of actually fixing?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 26:35

Yeah,

Middle managers as “shock absorbers”

Mickey Fitch-Collins 26:36

yeah. Well, let me back up a little bit. So, the middle manager stuff for me, like anybody who kind of you know is is working through different roles, I, you know, climbed the ladder. My my first career, I always tell people my first career was higher education administration. So I worked for a variety of different colleges and universities, and I sat in a number of middle manager roles, then I continued to move up uh the rankings or so to speak. And what I noticed, what I felt, what I was experiencing, what I was watching in other people, was yeah, that like middle managers are they're like the gumbies of organizations, right? They're constantly be being pulled in all these different directions.

Jeanne 27:14

I love Gumby.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 27:15

I mean, that's that's the best visualization is Gumby or gosh, I forget the other character. There's a character, a doll that you could stretch them all the time. Stretch Armstrong. Stretch Armstrong, thank you. Yeah. And when I started pursuing, I always knew that I wanted to get my PhD. And when I started pursuing my PhD, it was uh 2015. I was working full-time. I was a director level person uh at an organization at that time. And, you know, very early on in that doctoral journey, they want you to start thinking about what is it that you want to research, what do you want to do your dissertation on, right? Because they don't want people to be like in PhD programs for you know eight years and all this sort of stuff. They want you to, you know, get onto this. And I just started thinking about all the time of like middle managers are always squished, right? They're squished, they're pulled, they're isolated, they're lonely, they're frustrated, they're burnt out, all this sort of stuff. And that became my research. What ultimately I looked at was how does people's self-efficacy, so middle managers, their self-efficacy, so like my view of my ability to get the job done, so to speak, how is that influenced by the supervision that they're getting, right? So the boss's supervision that they're getting to them themselves as a middle manager, and then professional development. And what I found through that research process was really dark and dismal, which is to say that most middle managers are essentially having to create and craft their own support structures for them because there's this idea that, like, well, if you're a middle manager, you clearly know enough and you clearly have figured out enough. You don't really need a ton of support. Let me just get out of your way and just like leave you alone, let you do your thing. Which on the surface sounds amazing, right? Like, get out of the way and let me do my job,

Burnout, isolation & lack of support

Mickey Fitch-Collins 29:00

right? Because nobody wants to be micromanaged. The problem with that, though, is that these are still real human beings that have questions and they have concerns. They have a need to be seen and see other people, they have a need to be in networks, like all this sort of stuff. And so there's this kind of dearth of support for these folks. And we see this across all different types of organizations. This isn't just a higher ed thing. This is across all industries, corporates, nonprofit, government, whatever it is, big, small, in between, is that middle managers are expected to wear a ton of hats, and they're in this constant push-pull between their supervisors and their frontline folks to be advocates and be supports and all this sort of stuff. What I've done with that, right, is extrapolated that out to these different environments. In fact, in my current role, I actually created a workshop that's entirely around this is like what do we do to prevent burnout for middle managers? But coming to this concept of productivity theater, okay. Since it's Olympics time, I will go ahead and share this analogy. I always tell people is like in the workplace, a lot of people are trying to get on the metal board of the busy Olympics, right? Like whether it's gold, silver, or bronze, is there's this idea that like just chase, chase the metal in the busy Olympics. Performative busyness, right? Performative productivity. If I can just show you all the clicks and all the things and busy, busy, busy, how's things going? Oh, I'm so busy, right? You know, what did you? Oh, I had 17 different meetings today, right? Like we start like just sharing this uh busyness as though this is what uh shows value, right? Like this is the stuff, these are the core ingredients of burnout, right? This is the stuff that makes people hate their work. This is the stuff that makes people chuck their jobs and say, I gotta get out of here. This is the stuff, I mean, I actually in my research,

The “busy Olympics” & productivity theater

Mickey Fitch-Collins 30:49

I had folks that I was interviewing that experienced heart attacks, that were experiencing significant, I mean, significant other health issues, all this sort of stuff, because of this productivity, you know, uh busy Olympic sort of stuff, and this isolation and burnout sort of stuff that middle managers are having. And I talk about this as much as I can with folks because I just think that there's this idea of, well, if we just leave middle managers alone, they're fine, right? Like they're doing important work for the organization. But they are, you know, people always say it's lonely at the top. And I've been in C suite, you know, I've been in a C-suite role, I've been, you know, in that, yeah, it is lonely. But where it's especially lonely is when you're the middle manager of one, when you don't have a peer, when you don't, when you went from being one of the individual contributors and now you're the boss, right? When you don't have people that are pouring on support structures and stuff. And so to me, I mean, that's one of those things I feel like I'm like evangelizing all the time is like we have to support, we have to be better supervisors to those middle managers, and we must give them better support in terms of continued learning and development. I'm gonna step off my soapbox now.

Jeanne 31:58

No, no, no, because I mean you're making me think about myself because I've been in program management for years and years. And so one of the things that I realized for middle managers, and I've been in that seat too, is just like the reason why they throw out all this busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, I believe, is because that is what they're asked to show, to show progress, but it's not even meaningful data. Bingo. And so it goes way up to the C-suite, and they're like looking, what am I looking at? They did 50 tasks. What that is not telling me strategically what I need to know to move forward. So you're causing all this busy work for no reason at all, and and for not being able to actually run a business effectively because you want your execs to be able to point out through what they see and what they've been informed of how they can make changes, how they can step in and help these people. But instead, it's just a sack of status reports showing all of this junk that everybody's got piled on them. And it's not effective.

Why most work metrics miss the point

Mickey Fitch-Collins 33:06

You're you're absolutely right. And I mean, I think I think one of the greatest challenges, and especially, especially these days, you know, in in some of the economic conditions that we're in, I think, you know, moving into this, you know, not moving into, we're in this age of AI and kind of figuring out how this works for everybody. But is, yeah, like stop chasing the busy Olympics, like these metrics that people are feeling like are report worthy or important or valuable? It's like, but what is that actually doing? And and this is like the thing that like I ask people, and I I I drive this home in the work that I do day to day now, is like, what is that actually doing to help make impact for the business or the organization? What does that do to show that you are valuable and you're bringing value? How does all of these clicks and punches and reports and all of this sort of stuff actually move the needle on the strategy and the vision of your organization? If you can't answer those questions with little to no hesitation of if this then that, right? Like if you can't answer that, all of those reports and all that stuff that you're doing, it's a complete waste of time, right? And the talent, whether it's middle managers, frontline folks, senior directors, you know, whatever it is, your talent pool is spending a bunch of time being busy doing stuff and things instead of actually pursuing strategy, instead of actually pursuing impact. And that's the stuff that I mean, human beings, like we are really intelligent folks, right? This is the stuff that people, especially now as we're bringing AI into our work. This is the stuff that we're recognizing. Wow, there's a lot of my day-to-day that's just a bunch of punch and click sort of stuff, right? Every single, I mean, I tell people this all the time, it doesn't matter your industry, it doesn't matter the type of organization, where in the world you are, most of us, our job is problem solution, problem solution, problem solution, problem solution, right? Like that's what most of us do. But if in that process we're having to document the number of times that we click this or we're having to, you know, report this thing or whatever, and still instead of focusing on the solution and the impact, right? And the process that got us there, right? Like that's that's the critical thinking, that's the problem solving, that's the decision making. That's the stuff that's impact and strategy. It's not all the minutia of the busy Olympics. Yeah, the performative theater of busyness and productivity.

Rethinking value, impact & meaningful work

Jeanne 35:31

Yeah, I love that concept though. You definitely could support and help businesses in that. And I think some of it they're doing this to themselves as well because they don't allow for these middle managers to understand how do I show what I do unless I click and check and I get a hundred things, right? Yeah. Because their metrics keep getting raised every year. Like you want to be a top performer, so it's all based on all of this drunkness worthless. And so it it just keeps generating the same product constantly.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 36:04

Yeah.

Jeanne 36:05

And I yeah, so you've got a lot of work to do.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 36:08

We all do. We all do, yeah. But yeah, this is the work I do now.

Jeanne 36:12

Yeah, that's

Transition to Two Truths and a Lie

Jeanne 36:13

fantastic. I, you know, I like stuff like this because I always try to figure out what do you do, you know, and I always hated it at the end of the year when you're just trying to make your goals for the next year. Like, how can I go more than this? You know, how can I do more than I'm already doing? I can't, but then you always had to say put something down, you know. And then it was another measurement you had to check off and put on status, and it's like, oh my god. Okay. Well, Mickey, this has been a great conversation. I appreciate all that you've been saying. Absolutely. Before we dock this ship, though, we have to play our favorite game. Um, here on Project Candor, every episode we have a segment called Two Truths and a Lie. You've given me three headlines from your life, and now we get to dig deep. I'm going to read them and I'll take a guess at which one I think is the lie. Then you'll walk us through the story behind each one, uh, telling us uh without telling us, don't tell us the lie until the very end. Um, and then you'll reveal it to us. So are you ready?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 37:17

I am ready. Let's do it.

Jeanne 37:21

This episode

Catching bass as a professional job

Jeanne 37:22

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Mickey Fitch-Collins 39:18

So here's the thing. I think I'm a pretty good storyteller. So I feel like I could I could spin a tail on any one of these. I think it goes back to that whole building relationship with the sneaker thing. But all right. I was a professional bass fisherman, and and my job was to catch bass. And so what I did all the time was go out and go fishing and uh uh travel all over the place and catch fish. Wow. And what was the biggest bass you ever caught? Ooh, the biggest one just shy of six pounds. It's a big one.

Jeanne 39:49

How big do they get?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 39:50

So here's the thing is like the world record, um, they get huge ones in like places like Texas and California. And like I think the world record's like 21 pounds or something like that. But like that's crazy business, right? I mean, like there's a lake in Texas that like people regularly get, like 10 pound ones, and I really want to go there, but uh yeah, six pounds is a big one for me. And of course, as as you would imagine, and you uh I believe are in Florida, right? Like the warm states, you know, long growing season. It's just like vegetables, right? You know, fish can grow all year long. Where I live in northern Wisconsin, right? They have about two minutes of summer to be able to grow. So then they freeze, then they then they have to sit under the ice for many months. Yeah.

Jeanne 40:33

Oh wow.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 40:34

So did you get a lot of awards? Awards, uh, not really, because uh, you know, I was I was a youngster, and so I uh couldn't do some of these competitions uh legally. Um and so but what I did was I got a lot of recognition with like TV shows and you know things like that and magazine articles and you know things like that.

Jeanne 40:54

Wow. So you just like saying in the West, belly up to the bar boy.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 41:00

Yeah, you just walked in there and started fishing with the big men. I just started doing it, yeah. I just walked in and um, yeah, I was I was with a whole bunch of folks that uh had uh entered into that industry in a totally different way than I did, and but I just kind of walked in and started owning it. Yeah.

Jeanne 41:18

Oh, that's awesome. Well, I can see you doing that. So uh that was not my guess. So number two about getting fired from the job. Let's tell that story to us.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 41:26

Sure,

Getting fired & what it changed

Mickey Fitch-Collins 41:27

sure. So I was working a job and uh I got uh a call on a Tuesday morning and I got fired. And uh it was a big surprise to me, especially because um just about a week prior, um, I had a conversation um with one of the senior leaders in the organization that wanted to create a whole new portion of the business and wanted me to be in charge of it and hire a staff and kind of build this whole thing out. And then uh that following week on a Tuesday morning, what I thought was going to be a strategy call about that ended up me being fired. And I think what what we had put up on on the headline there was that it turned out to be one of the best uh things in my life and certainly was was not immediately, as as you said, right? You know, that uh people there's that grief process, right? Like the stages of grief and you know, anger. Yeah, yeah, anger rejection, frustration, all that. I mean, I went through all that stuff. It was ugly, but ended up being one of the best things that happened to me professionally because what it did for me is it set me up, and this is gonna sound a little backwards, but it set me up to never be dependent on my employer for anything other than me serving the organization in the way that I want to. And what I mean by that is not being dependent on an employer as my identity or as uh being dependent from paycheck to paycheck, and obviously benefits. I mean, that's the big thing that a lot of us, I mean, we need jobs for, you know, pay and benefits and all this sort of stuff. But to be in a place where the recognition, if we come down to brass tax on this, is that um we owe each other nothing um in a workplace because we're in a transactional sort of role, right? And that's kind of that is the one end of the spectrum, but that's like the best way for us to operate because what we can do is we can work backwards from there, which is like we can have deep, meaningful relationships and feel really passionate about our work and you know, loving all of the things that we do, which is absolutely where I'm at in in my role today. But I can also say this is not my identity, this is not who I am as a person, this is not the whole of my being, and I can move on, right? So, in that sense, I I hope that makes sense. Like in that sense, you know, kind of it was one of the best things that happened to me professionally in my life.

Jeanne 43:41

Very good. Yeah. So I'm having a might not be correct on that one. Okay, let's go to the third one, which I think is very cool because I do watch the show Survivor. So you applied and got accepted and you said no?

Auditioning for Survivor

Mickey Fitch-Collins 43:53

Yes. You said no.

Jeanne 43:55

Yeah. So here's what happened. Okay. Um maybe it was the I don't want to get. bitten by mosquitoes, be starving for a week.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 44:03

So it was the late, I guess would we call it the 2000s when it was still in single digits, like 2008, 2009 time. And I was going through a horrendous uh relationship dissolvement, all this sort of stuff. And I mean it's kind of funny to like look back on it. You know, I I had decided I needed to quit my job. I needed to move away from the area because I needed to get away from this person. And I was in this very prominent public relationship and I was like, I just need to get away from this person. And I always loved game shows. Like I mean I think like a lot of kids I grew up like watching like Wheel of Fortune and like Jeopardy and all this sort of stuff. But Survivor was huge I mean it's still huge. It's in season I don't even know it's coming up 50 I don't know why.

Jeanne 44:47

50 which is crazy. Yeah.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 44:50

So this would have been I don't know season 20 something or whatever. It was when they were in uh Samoa and there was a call for applications um and I had always felt this draw to the Pacific Islands. Like I would love to be out you know not just Hawaii but like Guam and Samoa you know you know kind of all the way over there. You know I I had always been drawn towards the Mariana Islands and you know just this idea of I you know I I think I am kind of a World War II sort of buff and so like Guadalcanal and like all the you know just all of these island cultures that people don't even realize like all these tiny little islands. Yeah Bali. And so I knew that Survivor was you know they always advertise like these are the next couple of seasons Samoa. Okay. Cool. I'm in this crazy time in my life and I'm like basically kind of like screw it let's do it right and so I did my audition tape. I did all the paperwork like all this sort of stuff you had to actually send like an actual tape um you know so I had to have some of it like that's crazy too. So I did like the audition tape and I said here's all these different skills that I have and that I've developed over the years and here's why I would be the best survivor. I mean you fill out the whole application. And for anybody who I you know I haven't applied a second time but yeah I don't know if it's still the same thing. But it is a very extensive process to apply to any of these reality shows or anything like that. I submitted it basically just as a kind of a screw you universe sort of thing. I applied to survivor because again I had decided like I'm gonna leave this job I'm gonna move across the country like all this sort of stuff which I already had those plans underway. I did not expect to hear anything and then I got an email and like we want to set up a call with you all this sort of stuff right and it was Skype back then right so like we have this Skype call and I meet with these folks and it's like a screening and I'm like oh this is like serious right so I have this call with them and they're like this is great. You know it was like half an hour or so they're like we want to pass you on to this other person. Can you meet again tomorrow? I met with that person they're like this is really awesome all this sort of stuff we're gonna send this on to you know this other group you know we're gonna record this we're gonna send this on to this other group all this sort of stuff and I'm like okay sure whatever I move I start this new job all of the sudden I get this phone call and I'm like I don't recognize this number or whatever and it's a producer person and they're like hey so this is you we want you to come and be on this next season do you have the availability so it's like six weeks you have to you know like you have to be able to get yourself there and then once everything you know once you're on the island everything else is taken care of you know blah blah blah can you do this? And I was like are you serious? Like I wasn't like a hundred percent serious about applying for this and I said no because I had just established myself in this new job this other part I I had moved out to Maine all this sort of stuff and so I said no but they were like we want you to be on the show like we want you to be on Survivor. So they said yes I said no.

Jeanne 47:56

I so would have rooted for you what you're like the kind of person I like to watch.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 48:02

And

Taking a closer look

Mickey Fitch-Collins 48:03

then you could have finished because you know there's yeah well that was one of the things that I said to them I was like listen like I got these nature skills you know I I have you know this ability to you know build relationships with people and or you know like work with people you know so yeah but kids you have lied that's the thing I get of like oh man some of these lies these guys throw on that show it's so horrible it's so horrible it is yeah yeah and here we are playing two truths in a lie but just sometimes most of these stories are just bent a little bit yeah yeah so which one was a lie did I get it right or wrong you did not you did not the lie was the survivor story yeah okay well what is there any truth uh on it at all there is no truth no absolutely I've I've always thought that it would be cool to apply for survivor or something like that. Now I'm too old and I have two young kids and I'm married and you know all this sort of stuff but no there's no truth to it all the well actually I did move to Maine and I did have a new job and all that sort of stuff. So that was true.

Final reflections & future possibilities

Jeanne 49:07

Yeah and I was getting out of the bathroom so you couldn't have gone anyway but it was a dream in your mind. Yeah but you you know people go on there I think they've had people in their 70s on Survivor.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 49:17

So what you're saying is there's hope yet there is hope and he's always asking that Jeff Prost he's always going hey please apply and my husband and I watch it and then we just like no thank you Jeff ...moving on... What I really want to do I actually have a a a friend of mine that was on Wheel of Fortune and she actually like won the show you know and she's like you really should apply you know I mean because I I watched uh you know I watched Wheel of Fortune and and Shepherd and all those shows as a kid and now that I know somebody that was on the show she's like oh yeah like I'll I'll coach you through the process you should definitely do it like people would love you. Yeah they would they would maybe there's a little bit of future for me in in a game show but in a game show reality show.

Jeanne 49:59

Yeah that would be so much fun. Well it's been so fun having you on. I want I know people want to know how to get in touch with you so I'm gonna share another screen here and just show a few things. First thing is is that you gave me a quote that you kind of like and that kind of relates to you. So do you want to talk about that?

Mickey Fitch-Collins 50:19

Yeah

Life is short—stay awake for it

Mickey Fitch-Collins 50:20

yeah so anybody who's familiar with the coffee shop chain caribou coffee I know that they're in some parts of the country and not yes I love love love caribou. Yeah so life is short stay awake for it that's uh kind of one of their slogans and you know for anybody who's watching obviously you've been seeing me kind of sip on um my cup of coffee and the other thing that I have in front of me here is chocolate covered espresso beans so you can tell I love my caffeine. So yeah I love I love that uh you know sleep and sleep hygiene is very important to me. I love my sleep and I protect my sleep as much as I can being a mom of a five year old and a two year old but but I also I try to look at my awake hours as what can I do to maximize every single moment. And so that quote has always spoken to me life is short stay awake for it.

Jeanne 51:05

I love it. And then you have other links down here and she'd like you to reach out to her on her website or LinkedIn these links will be put in the show notes so you can make sure you connect with her and then you had a call to action that they could join you on your Learn It Lounge. Yeah. So I'll also put that in the show notes. I don't know if you want to talk about that.

Where to connect & Learn It Lounge

Mickey Fitch-Collins 51:26

Yeah absolutely so there's a couple of things I I host a podcast so the organization I work for is Learn It um and uh what we do at Learn It is we do upskilling for people in all different industries. And so my job is to help other people get better at their jobs. So we uh teach a variety of different uh workshops a variety of different topics all virtually um we do some in-person stuff too and so one of those calls to action is if you go to learnit.com and forward slash Mickey, you and up to 20 people on your team can get access to our Learnit team pass for 45 days. So for a month and a half you can take as many workshops you can check things out see if it would be a fit for you in your organization. Doesn't matter if you're a mom and pop shop or if you're a huge Fortune 100 company that's a way for you to kind of experience us to take some workshops with me and some of my teammates. I also have a podcast that I host called the Learn It Lounge which is um all about kind of the the process of learning and development in the work world and so I welcome people if you want to listen to that go ahead and do that too. But LinkedIn is the best way to get a hold of me and be in touch and I would welcome folks to get connected send me a message I I love LinkedIn and I love all those ongoing conversations that I have with folks there.

Jeanne 52:31

Wonderful wonderful well thank you so much for being on the show it's been really fantastic. For those that are listening please stay tuned for the episode next week that's coming out and from your Admiral of the unexpected I wish you smooth sailing.

Mickey Fitch-Collins 52:48

Thanks

Closing

Mickey Fitch-Collins 52:49

Jeanne so much for the opportunity.

Jeanne 52:51

Bye Thanks for joining me on Project Candor where the doors are open the stories are unexpected and the treasure is always real if today's episode made you laugh or think follow the show and share it with your crew. Otherwise I might just make you swab the deck. I'm Jeanne Andersen your Admiral of the unexpected see you on the next voyage