The Performance Trap

In this episode of Meditations on Leadership, Don reflects on a tension many leaders quietly carry: the pull between making an impression and leading from a deeper, more authentic center. In a culture that often rewards visibility and performance, how do leaders stay grounded in values, wisdom, and lived experience rather than image?

Don is joined by Yellow Light Breen, President and CEO of the Maine Development Foundation, for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, growing up in rural Maine, and the lifelong work of building bridges across communities and perspectives. Together they explore how real leadership is shaped not by performance, but by the inner work that helps leaders show up with humility, clarity, and purpose.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Every leader carries a private curriculum, lessons learned through experience, through mistakes, through moments when things did not go as planned, and we had to decide who we were going to be next. This podcast is a space to explore that kind of learning. Each week begins with a short meditation drawn from my ongoing reflections on leadership. From there, we step into a conversation with someone whose life and work help bring these ideas into the real world. Not necessarily to offer formulas or easy answers, but to reflect on the inner work that shapes how we lead. Because leadership is rarely just about strategy or position. It is about the choices we make when the path forward is unclear, when the stakes are real, and when the people around us are depending on us to show up with clarity and integrity. And today we get to explore that kind of leadership through the story and experience of someone I deeply respect. Today I'm joined by Yellow Light Breen. I first met Yellow in the late 1990s. At the time he was working as an executive at Bangor Savings Bank, and my uncle Jack pulled me aside one day and said, There's someone I think you should meet. He really cares about the people of Maine. That introduction led to a conversation I still remember. What struck out, what stuck out to me then, and what has stayed with me since, was Yellow's deep commitment to opportunity and the well-being for people across our state, not just in theory, but in practice. Yellow grew up in rural central Maine, raised in a farming and shoemaking region where, as he likes to say, a geeky hippie kid named Yellow didn't always fit in. But over time, that experience of not quite fitting in became one of his greatest strengths. It helped shape a leadership style rooted in listening, bridge building, and bringing people together across differences to solve problems. Today, Yellow serves as the president and CEO of the Maine Development Foundation, a nonpartisan public-private partnership created by the legislator to help drive sustainable long-term economic growth for Maine. Through research, leadership initiatives, and cross-sector partnerships, MDF works to strengthen Maine's economy and expand opportunity for people in every corner of the state. Yellow brings a diverse background in business, public policy, and law to that work. Before joining MDF in 2015, he spent more than a decade as an executive at Bangor Savings Bank, where he oversaw strategic planning, marketing, online banking, and community development. Earlier in his career, he served at the Maine Department of Education and was an advisor to former governor Angus King. Raised in rural Maine and educated in Maine's public schools, Yellow later earned both his undergraduate and law degrees from Harvard University. He has also served on numerous civic and philanthropic boards, including the Maine Community Foundation, Educate Maine, and previously chaired Realize Maine, an initiative focused on attracting and supporting young professionals. Although Yellow and I haven't crossed paths often over the years, he has long been on my list of people I hope to invite onto this podcast when the time felt right. I'm grateful that moment has arrived. Yellow lives in Bangor with his wife. They have three grown children. And when he's not working, you'll often find him hiking, swimming, or skiing with his family, which is where he currently is at the time of this taping. So, Yellow, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

It's nothing to be here, Don. You're so complimentary. I'm fired up.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Awesome. All right. Well, before we jump in, let me uh share meditation number two from my forthcoming book. It's titled The Performance Trap. And it's a theme that Yellow picked for our conversation today. And I wrote down this quote from John Hyder in a little book I picked up somewhere in some indie bookstore called The Tao of Leadership. The quote says, The leader shows that style is no substitute for substance, that knowing certain facts is not more powerful than simple wisdom, that creating an impression is not more potent than acting from one's center. If I'm honest, there's a quiet tension I carry, a tug of war between the desire to make an impression and the commitment to lead from my center. It has followed me through every stage of my leadership journey. And I doubt I'm alone. In a world where platforms often speak louder than principles, it is easy to start performing. Algorithms reward charisma, culture rewards polish, the message is everywhere. You have to put yourself out there, and to some extent, that is true. Visibility can inspire, stories do matter, but beneath it all, one question always lingers where is this coming from? Is it born of ego or of experience? Is it curated, curated for applause or rooted in truth? Heider's words pierce through the noise. Style is no substitute for substance. Creating impression is not more potent than acting from one center. That line stopped me. It asked something of me. Not to sound wise, but to become wise. It has taken me more than three decades to begin writing some of this down. Not because I lacked stories or strategy, but because I was not ready to share them from the right place. I had to live into leadership before I could write about it. To fail, reflect, and fumble my way toward clarity. I did not want to pass along ideas that were not grounded in lived experience, wisdom over knowledge, substance over style, roots before reach. And all of that requires one thing knowing what sits at your center. The longer I lead, the more I come to believe that leadership is not something you imitate, it's something you temper in silence and heartbreak and honest reflection, and through constant internal questions like these, is this offering about impact or identity? Is it good? Is it for the good of others or for the good opinion of others? These questions have shaped not only my writing but how I try to move through the world as a leader. The performance trap is subtle. It convinces us that visibility equals leadership. But the longer I lead, the more I've learned something quieter. Leadership grows at the center. Because of that, I have developed a small habit. Before stepping into a room, before walking onto a stage, before beginning a meeting or a program, I try to pause and ask myself one simple question. Am I here to make an impression or to make a difference? The answer usually tells me whether I'm leading from the surface or from my center. Am I here to make an impression or to make a difference? The answer usually tells me that I'm using from my center. And over time I've come to understand what the center really is. It is the place where my leadership is no longer about proving something, but about being something, where my actions grow out of the essence of who I am, out of the values I'm trying to live, out of a steadiness that comes from doing the inner work. Not just being professionally prepared for the task at hand, but emotionally and spiritually prepared as well. When that center is strong, leadership stops being performance. It becomes presence. And from that place, the work has a chance to matter. So I'm just going to offer a quick real-time reflection. Uh, and I've been reflecting on this meditation, I realized that the tension I described isn't just theoretically theoretical for me. I'm actually living it right now with this podcast. For the first 29 episodes, I barely mentioned it publicly. I shared it with family and people within my professional network. But I resisted putting it out into the broader world. Part of that hesitation came from something deeper than simple discomfort. It came from wrestling with how to promote something I genuinely believe has substance on platforms that often reward style, speed, and self-promotion more than depth. In many ways, social media can feel like the very place where the performance trap lives, the pressure to constantly put yourself out there to signal your importance, to curate attention. And if I'm honest, that has never felt like a natural place for me. At the same time, I believe the conversations we're having on this podcast matter. They are thoughtful, they are reflective, and they are rooted in someone's lived experience. So the question I keep returning to is the same one from the meditation. Am I here to make an impression or to make a difference? For me, the answer is slowly becoming clearer. Sharing the podcast isn't about promoting myself, it's about inviting more people into the conversation. And when I remember that, it becomes a little easier to press the post button. So, Yellow, as you heard the meditation, as you think about these, uh the idea of the performance trap, what stayed with you? What what lingers for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Oh my gosh, Don, so many things running through my head about this. And I I think I react immediately to the idea that that there's some kind of tension in that I think leadership is performative. And I don't necessarily think that has to be a bad thing or that it has to be disconnected from your authentic self. Um, right. I want to hear more about this. Yeah. So I mean, I'm thinking about this on a number a number of levels. Like one thing that popped into my mind was coaching little league baseball. When you're there as a coach of youth sports, you want to show up with someone who's even more patient than your actual self. You want to show up with someone that's even more resilient than your actual self. You know, you want to model good behavior. And I think that's true in so many walks of leadership that you, you know, you're you're trying to walk a walk. So in that sense, you want to be authentic. But in some ways, you are, as a leader versus just an individual contributor or a team member, you know, called upon to model something that is that is higher or better than you know, your just let your hair down self. And so I I think, you know, when it gets inauthentic is when the performance is somehow disconnected from your values and aspirations. I also think like this idea that leadership is bad if it's performative kind of could imply that somehow, and I think we perceive this, somehow leadership is like an intuitive virtue, that that people who are good leaders are just good leaders. And I think like oftentimes in my career, I'm a better leader because I literally ask myself, what would a caring ethical leader do in this situation? Not what would Yellow Breen, a flawed human being with his own blinders and defaults and tendencies and and you know uh impulses do. But what would a caring ethical leader do in this situation and aspiring to be one and and therefore embracing that that's a role that isn't natural. You you're not born into it. It's not like your gut instincts are better than everyone else's. So just the idea of maybe it's the fact that the performance needs to be um aligned with one's values, and the performance needs to be about something you care about, and the performance needs to be consistent, you know, and ethically grounded, but not that it's not a performance.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

All right, there's a lot there to unpack. So I've I I'm uh this is gonna be great. So so I've had many coaches, and uh going to the other theme that you had um almost picked, that we kind of had a back and forth on, was the theme of do no harm in leadership. And I've had a lot of coaches that I don't think were acting from their center when they challenged me to a fight in the locker room during a college basketball game, for instance. And although uh so what I'm trying to get at here is I think you're right that I'm not saying that performance is necessarily a bad thing, but I think I've been in enough rooms where the performance can lead to harm. And therefore, and I've been in that situation where the where I've performed in a way that has led to harm. And I loved your piece about like what is the con what is the construct, right? What's the construct to say, hey, what would somebody I really admire, let's say my uncle Jack, what would my uncle Jack do in this situation, who's an ethical leader, and that helps me, but at the same time, the failure of not acting from my center and doing harm was the much greater teacher, but it required one thing, which was the ability to reflect on that, and that's the deep internal work that I'm trying to get at in this particular series. So, with that in mind, and we can take it wherever you want to take it, but I guess my question for you is as you think about your own leadership journey, and and you've been in all kinds of rooms and had to perform and all those kind of things, what have you done in order to kind of take some of the challenging times, or I don't want to necessarily say failures, but how have you processed those in a way that's made you become a better leader?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, I mean, I I think speaking of performance and like that disconnect, I can honestly remember one moment way back in my career when I worked in education policy in the executive branch and worked a ton in the statehouse with the legislature. And we were big fans of the West Wing TV show. And I remember trying sort of, you know, the approach that Sam or Josh might try on the West Wing with a legislator, and he just laughed in my face. Sort of that trying to leverage the situation, like, hey, you know, you this is the best deal you're gonna get. You know, why don't you take it and declare victory? And he just laughed in my face, like, yellow, why wouldn't I keep pushing for for more? Because, you know, maybe on the margin I'll get a little bit more. That's how the process works. And and uh so um I think I think the other thing is like it takes a long time maybe to know yourself. You know, I love to question things. And, you know, when I was part of a leadership group at Bangor Savings, you know, it took me a while to realize that my questioning everything was an ineffective and uh strategy and was undermining me in my impact as a leader. Like you might be questioning to learn and seek understanding, and there's a time and place for that, but sometimes it's in a different place than room. Uh there might be questioning because it is going to affect um your decision, and that's you know, always fair game. But sort of grasping that I could ask one-third as many questions as were going through my head, and it would still be way too many than most people wanted to deal with. Like, you know, so I think I think it's not like the hardest thing about knowing yourself is when you think you're moderating some of your default tendencies as a leader, whatever this might be, and you realize the moderated version of yourself is still, you know, way too over the top in whatever regard for you know being effective in in the culture or the situation that you're in.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

So well, that that that is a big lesson to learn. Uh, it sounds like it was something. I guess my question for you is did someone put up a mirror to you, pull you aside, someone older mentor, uh someone, someone that was your manager and said, Yellow, you you're hurting the process more than you're you know, offering things to the process.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah, I I think a combination of peers and ultimately a really good executive coach, you know, over time, making those same observations and and then triangulating. I think one of the most powerful things about executive coaching, which I strongly recommend leaders who have access to that to take advantage, uh, I was intrinsically skeptical. I think many people are. But if you find the right one, it's effectively a mirror. And, you know, it it helps you ultimately hold up a better, more honest mirror to yourself. But one of the greatest moments in that process was I'd go into my weekly or bi-weekly coaching session, I'd say, we've been working on X. I think I'm doing better on X. And my co like, let's say, you know, I think I'm doing better and empowering my team members. And my coach would say, Well, did you ask them?

unknown 19:38

I'm like, darn it.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I forgot to ask them. Let me go back and ask them. Hey guys, am I am I doing any better or do I just think I'm doing better?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Well, would you um uh would you have described yourself younger self as a contrarian?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

To some degree, yeah. I think always had that sense that if if all think alike, nobody's thinking much. And um certainly relished, you know, being on the debate team in high school and all the way through college. And, you know, but I think also, and I'm a lawyer by training, even though I've tried never to practice loss, I can avoid it. But I think part of the reason the law was attractive to me is that you know, by turning things around and questioning them and challenging them and vigorous advocacy, you can get a more complete version of the truth out. And so I think too, I I tend not to like to take things for granted. And um, because I've moved in a lot of different cultures and organizations where I didn't grow up in that culture or organization, you know, I have a need to challenge or understand more things maybe than people who did grow up in it, but also can add could add unique value by challenging assumptions. So but it's a so it's a careful balancing act between being enough of an outsider to challenge constructively and not, you know, to challenge just to kind of turn things around and explore what-ifs, you know, with folks. So it's it's like any tool, you have to like, you know, aim it, uh name it and aim it effectively.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah. Well, let's uh let's talk a little bit about this idea of outsider. You talk, I I talked about some things that you shared with me in your bio about growing up, quote, as the geeky hippie kid named Yellow, who didn't always fit in. And I'm curious how that experience shaped the way you show up as a leader even today.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, and I remember uh being in a meeting during my professional career, and one of my colleagues being like, Guess which one is yellow? And I was the guy sitting there in the blue pinstripe suit, you know, contrary to like stereotype. Point in my career. Yeah, so growing up in rural Maine, you know, with a name like Yellow and hippie parents who had moved to rural Maine as part of the back to the land movement, you're you're never gonna fit in, um in in the general sense. And and then being like just like kind of an intellectual outlier who was like, you know, really deep in the books and and you know, kind of a different headspace than a lot of my peers, again, just not gonna fit in. Uh, and then going from that though, to being kind of you know, an outlier on the fringe of rural Maine, to then going to Harvard and the Ivy League as a rural Maine kid and not fitting in there either. Right. So I think I I don't think I ever got comfortable, but eventually I had this realization that people spend, including me, spend a lot of their life trying to fit in. And if I could get comfortable with embracing that I wasn't going to fit in very well and need to be comfortable in my own skin going into milieus with, you know, people different than me, people richer than me, people from more urban areas than me, you know, uh, you name it, people from different industries than me ultimately, that if I just I got comfortable navigating those um differences, that that was a better use of my energy and super powerful in unlocking some key things. Um, I think that made me a better person and a better leader. And maybe we can get into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah. Um, how long in your journey did that take? Like uh 30s, 20s, 40s, where are we at when it comes to fully getting to this place of total acceptance that your superpower actually is the very thing that makes you unique rather than your ability to fit in?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

It's hard to say exactly, but one you know aspect of that realization was I was passionate about education uh for main kids, having grown up in a rural area with a lot of you know manufacturing and agriculture that was declining, without a lot of history of college going. And indeed, like you wouldn't even admit you were going to college until you were deep into a conversation to make sure it was safe. You know, and so that was pretty dramatic. Um, so my passion for changing education uh opportunities and therefore education outcomes for Maine kids led me to the Maine Department of Education when I got back to Maine. And being the non-educator in that department and in those rooms, and trying to translate their aspirations and initiatives into lingo and frames that I thought everyday Maine people could relate to, who also were not steeped in the jargon or the assumptions or you know, the the uh institutions of public education. So that idea of wait, wait, maybe I could be actually an even more effective spokesperson um for these values and initiatives because I'm not from within it.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah. Well, can you give us the audience? Uh, and I don't think I've ever asked you this, but is your full name yellow light green, or is light your middle name? Tell and what's the origin story?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah, so uh it's yellow light, all my first name on my birth certificate, although Uncle Sam seems to let me get away with using it as a middle initial instead. And few people call me by the full yellow light, but governor now Senator King does, and I kind of like it, so I don't mind it at all. And so my my parents, my dad's journey and our family connection in New England started when my dad went to Dartmouth. Short story, wanted to go to Berkeley in California. His dad, the Marine Colonel, said no. This was in the late 60s, went to Dartmouth, got arrested for protesting at Dartmouth instead of Berkeley. So, you know, I'm not sure the colonel achieved his objectives. So uh, so and then all of his friends were still at Dartmouth. So he and my mom moved back to Vermont when when they got together, and ultimately a year or two later to Maine. A small, you know, you could say commune, but really it was just a farm in rural Waldo County, Troy, Maine, where you know, several, you know, couples and families of hippies were were sharing the farm. And I was born at home there at dawn. And so a lot of the hippie back to landers were really into kind of the lore of the Southwest American Indians, the Navajo and the Hopi. And so that certainly inspired their naming of me and my sister and and my other siblings. So I was born at dawn and they named me yellow light after the rest. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, well, I was thinking more about the f a follow-up question to that, is but it it doesn't really make sense. But the follow-up question was going to be have you found yourself to take on a characteristic of caution, you know, as opposed to, or is the the idea that you speed right through the yellow light to get to the I would say, you know, maybe I'm I think people often look at situations and say, oh, well, you know, you're a risk taker, you're less risk-averse than me.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

I don't know if that's always true. I think my my vision of risk is just different than other people. Like when I was in law school, I had classmates that would never have dreamed of, you know, go applying for a judicial clerkship outside of the major metro population centers. And I'm like, why not? So I wound up clerking in Oklahoma. So it wasn't because I thought I was being more risk-taking. It just didn't seem like that big of a risk to me relative to my worldview, you know. So I think, I think um, I wouldn't say that I'm that I'm damn the torpedoes. I think I I think I've gradually, you know, developed because I grew up in such a kind of unconventional background, I don't default to assume that my worldview or ideas or framing of I of situations is typical or the default. I assume that it might be unique. And so I think if anything, you know, it tends I tend to therefore want to get in and kind of respect and understand with a sense of curiosity, where is everyone else thinking about this issue? What is the prevailing sort of assumptions and culture of this place I'm in? And then to try to have impact. Like I think this idea, like there's your own center, but then there's also respecting and uncovering the center of the organization or community that you're a part of and that you might want to try to impact.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so much of your work has involved this idea of building bridges across different communities, sectors, perspectives in Maine. When you find yourself in those rooms with competing interests and strong opinions, how do you stay grounded in your own self as a leader? Because obviously you're wanting to move something forward that's gonna in, I would imagine, in the organization's mind is the best thing for Maine, but there would be strong opinions. And I'm just curious about how do you how do you maintain yourself in those situations where I'm sure you're in it a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, you know, my first board meeting at MDF years ago, my one of my board members said, don't confuse being nonpartisan for not standing for anything. Right. And when you stand for something, and I I I try to avoid words like objective or neutral, because I think we all try to stand for something. One of the things we try to do at MDF is start with the data about that something. And I think that gives us a lot of credibility and and this respect of being nonpartisan in that sense, even though we still try to stand for, you know, sometimes far-reaching ideas that we we think could have impact. One of my colleagues at Bangor Savings Bank said one time, maybe one of the highest compliments I could imagine getting, he said, Yellow, you have a way of being a disruptor without being disruptive. And I think meaning meet the people and the institution on their terms, you know, let's say, you know, let's say you have people who are very quantitatively driven, very financially focused. Like what is a way of framing what we're trying to get done in a way that they can relate to and embrace? Um, it might not be what motivates me, you know, in a given situation. And ultimately, I remember my CEO, Jim Conlan at Bangor Savings. You know, I could write a treatise on why we should do certain things in terms of the community and community investment. And Jim ultimately, after several years of us working together, he would get up at these community meetings that we would have and say, if you do the right thing for the right reason, the community will find a way to pay you back. In one sentence, like Jim managed to internalize and distill like a decade and what might you know have been pages of me trying to justify why you know you should really lead with community commitment in a for-profit financial institution. Um, if you do the right thing for the right reason, they'll find a way to pay you back. You know, and he saw the payback, even though he knew it was indirect and and long-term, you know, and eventual. So I think connecting, you know, a lot of times it's like unpacking why don't we already agree? Like if it's so obvious to me, why don't we already agree? Yeah. And if I don't think I already have some insight as to why, you know, probing and and learning why that is uh is one critical part. And then the second critical part I think is um sometimes you got to take it out of the room. And that's true, whether you're leading like a corporation or in the community, you know, people may in a one-on-one, you know, really be able to unpack a differing viewpoint or step out of a role that they're playing, or you know, admit that they haven't maybe considered every angle in something, me included. Whereas human nature is if you confront someone in a quote unquote public setting, even meaning, you know, six or eight peers, they're not gonna back down, they're not gonna unpack, they're not gonna reflect, they're not gonna work through different angles with you.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah, yeah. So when I I'm sure you've been in situations where in a particular room that leads to confrontation, maybe unintentionally or otherwise. Or you're feeling confronted. What do you what do you do with that type of what is your default mechanism to deal with that? Is it to to to as you say, take it out of the room or take a break, or you know, get your bearings and then go back at it, or is it to how do you manage that? I I think I'm asking because I think we're currently in a situation where the idea of nonpartisan can feel like that it's so standing for something, and therefore there's perception that people are are thinking one way, and there's a lot of confrontation right now in terms of relationships and what people believe and think, and all those kind of things. And I'm wondering, you're you're in a place that you build so many bridges with all people of all different sectors, but also political viewpoints. So I'm just curious, like what do you do in those times?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

You know, first I think is de-escalate, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I mean, sometimes de-escalation is distance, like you said. Um, sometimes you just don't have that privilege, you know, that that opportunity. And so, you know, an example would be we we we do a lot of leadership development ourselves. You know, one of the concepts going back over 30 years now was listen, MDF can forge partnerships and try to have an impact on Maine's economy. But also one of the ways we can have impact is by educating, you know, generations of main leaders across every sector with a deeper understanding about the main economy and some heightened school uh tools for collaboration themselves. And so we've been doing the leadership main program for over 30 years. We took on equally long-lived, but newer to us, the ICL Institute for Civic Leadership Program a few years back. And then we run something for the main legislature called the Policy Leaders Academy, which is kind of a lighter touch version of our leadership main economic education work. Within that, by the way, we sometimes have expressly tackled the issues of civility and civil discourse and building relationships and bridges across the aisle, but partly just the program itself does that by creating, you know, a learning experience and an identity as a learning group among legislators, often at the beginning of their biennial term where they don't even yet fully know who's in what caucus. And so just creating like, you know, a learning cohort has a powerful, you know, non-partisan impact. Um, and watching them explore and learn and at an extreme, I'll never forget seeing them playing around in the touch tank at the Downeast Institute for Applied Marine Research in Beals, Maine with the starfish and everything else. And, you know, all right, there's nothing partisan about this experience. And uh, you know, and and our guard is down in that sense. But then even within that program, we'll have legislators who don't like something they hear or don't like some place that we take them to. And, you know, can and then we've had a couple of instances where they can get pretty animated about that. And so first, de-escalate, second, respect that they don't they don't have to agree with what they're hearing, they don't even have to agree with why we brought them there to hear it, but that we're trying to show them a diversity of opinions and realities and experiences. And that same legislator the next day might think we're the greatest things since sliced bread. Yeah, because we brought them to some places where they really resonated with. Um, you know, so not everybody will kind of respond to that the way you you hope, but but most do, many do. So I think it's uh it could be, you know, I think there's some powerful tools. I think it's been interesting. I spent a lot of time sitting in the housing and economic development committee of the legislature the last couple of years, because if you have any issue in the legislature, including a tiny piece of our own budget, you wind up sitting there for days at a time while they eventually get to your item. And like it's been interesting to see an issue like housing and especially sort of the regulatory environment for housing, become a little bit more partisan than we might imagine, because the split of who represents rural Maine and urban Maine has become very partisan. There aren't a lot of Democrats left representing rural Maine. I think that's unfortunate because an issue that might have a rural-urban divide quickly starts to sound partisan, you know, when a lot of these rural communities are simply saying, geez, when we're debating the balancing act between local control and enabling housing development, like heck, we have very little, you know, regulatory or zoning barriers in some of our rural towns. So we're not the issue. So why should we get on board to help out with rebalancing this, you know, this subtle balance between local control and and uh and you know, abundance sort of mindset. But it's not that it really is a partisan issue, it's just who who represents what type of community. And and again, I so I think understanding it, unpacking it, saying, okay, where are you coming from on this? And good compromises and good alliances come from that respect and understanding sometimes when you've given up all hope and least expect it.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

So let me just repeat back to you what I think I heard you say. When you're in those situations, in light of your work, you try it really hard to de-escalate. You try to listen, you try to understand and unpack where uh folks are coming from. And by doing that in a really authentic way, it can lead to good compromises in ways that you might not expect if you can meet folks in that space. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah, that that is a great summary of it. And I I do think like it can be, I remember one session where we went in, you know, this isn't partisan, but to your point, like if you go into high stress situations with diverse stakeholders, went into one situation where we're just starting this work with the paper, the forest products industry and the distressed paper mill towns in 2016 when six paper mills had closed. And we went in to this session, and I was we'd been asked to maybe play a facilitative role. And I said, Well, you know, we're the honest broker in the situation. And I remember stakeholder reaction saying, Are you calling the rest of us dishonest? And who are you to arrogate to yourself the power of being our broker, quote unquote. And I was like, good point. I will never use that term again. You know, so it could have been uh, but I I realized not only in that moment, but throughout various parts of that process that sometimes it's what you don't say or what you don't say prematurely when you think there's a conflict brewing. And throughout the process there, I would sometimes get concerned that we were kind of the process or our our you know initiatives would become kind of captive to sort of the incumbent players who are at the table and not maybe push ourselves to think about things a little differently. And I would, I would, I would sit on that concern maybe for minutes or sometimes hours longer than I thought I wanted to. And then someone else at the table would say, wait a minute, you know what really matters here? Good paying jobs for rural Maine, not our incumbent interests of our particular subsector. And of course it was better because they said it, not me saying it as kind of a nudge or, you know, a process manager of the thing, but them saying it to each other at the table. So sometimes I did I have learned not easily that sometimes it's what you don't say throughout these processes, you know, until you wait to become clear whether the group can work it's it it out for itself.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. And uh knowing that you are in these um many times in pressure situations, um, trying to haggle out uh a way to move something forward. I'm wondering about when you know you're gonna walk into a room that has the potential of escalation due to whatever personalities you know are gonna be in there. I'm wondering whether or not you like I mean in the meditation, I talked about this question that I ask myself a lot. You know, am I here to make an impression or make a difference? And uh that helps ground me. I'm wondering whether or not you have any like little bits of wisdom that help you or habits or internal questions that help you stay grounded as you move into that. Because I could see if you're not taking time to take a little break before you walking into a meeting like that, it can it can get lost real quick.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, maybe not one as sharp and as pointed as you know, the kind of self-mantra that that you laid out, Don, but probably the single biggest thing is to remind myself that if you assume everyone is there, you know, to to achieve the common good as they see it, as they see it, then you know, you really can maybe manage your reactions and approach to the situation better and differently. Because there's personalities. Some people are very aggressive and confrontational personalities, some people are not, you know, some people are gonna be. In a very uh stressed survival, life or death for my company, life or death for my industry type of situation, and that will drive, you know, behaviors. Um, and people will start from very different place of assuming that other people around the table are not, you know, good faith actors. So I think going in and reminding yourself even quickly before you enter the room to assume that everyone is a good faith actor and that everyone is trying to get to the good as they see the good, that really can help, I think, moderate how you react and avoid inflaming the confrontation versus trying to figure out how to bring it back to some common ground of starting point.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Was that muscle built over time? I mean, I I it's a uh it's a it's a strong muscle to build that ability to really assume best intentions and to assume that people are truly seeking the uh common good as they see it. And um, I I just think it takes someone special to be able to intentionally think about that. And um, I'm wondering if that's something that uh grew out of scar tissue or whether or not you always had that muscle.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

You know, I think it did grow out of my work in politics. I mean, politics has a bad name for many people, but working in a political setting in the legislature, working on things that can seem zero sum, like school funding, and saying, well, wait a minute, why does every community think that the school funding formula is somehow, you know, engineered to screw them over? What's the kernel of truth for each of those communities, school districts, legislators? And unpacking that and you know, using and and generating data together to explore what equity looks like, what fairness like? Um, I think I think a lot of it came from that and then other legislative issues too, working on Governor King's laptop initiative when that you know debuted to like 9% public support, and trying to understand like, well, if if we were so right, you know, we wouldn't be at 9%. But like what why what is that framing mismatch of how we were thinking about its value versus how you know others were thinking about its value? So on the school funding thing, just you know, I think validating, for instance, saying, hey, you know, at the time and arguably still like, okay, it's very hard to generate a school funding model that is fair and equitable for rural communities with very low tax base. But then also in the course of the dialogue, when service center communities were saying, geez, we're built bearing the brunt of a lot of the special education students who move into our communities for good services, uh, you know, certainly bearing the brunt in Portland and Lewiston of English as a second language and New Maynor community. Like not reacting to that, you know, and saying, oh, you guys don't get it, but saying, all right, that this is a valid point. Like, okay, how how do we, you know, respect that, you know, there's different burdens and different inequities going on in different kinds of communities, taking it at face value and working through it, and getting to, you know, amazingly a unanimous committee report on certain school funding reforms and a unanimous task force report on the laptop program. But meeting people where they were, and in the case of the laptop program, meeting people where they were in terms of grappling with why this is an education and learning initiative and not a tech initiative or an economic initiative.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

And what is it as a learning initiative, uh, this powerful learning tool? So meeting people where they are, taking their version of reality at face value, unpacking it respectfully, not always agreeing with it. You know, sometimes it can be exaggerated, overstated, misperceived, but but if you start with a point of respect for it, you know, you can unpack it differently.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yeah. Well, you've been there for 11 years at MDF. And uh, if I understand if I got my numbers right, and I'm wondering what you absolutely love about the job that you get to do that perhaps you didn't expect that you would love.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Oh that's a hard one because so many of the parts I've loved about it I did expect, which is we have a broad mandate, which means at times a blank slate. So if there's an issue that's important to Maine, we can decide whether we have something unique to offer to get involved. We had never been involved, for instance, in helping a sector reconceive its future opportunity like we are now with the forest product sector and the marine fisheries sector. And yet there was a, you know, there was a distress and a need. And folks were willing to let us try to help. But I knew that going in, that this idea that MDF had, you know, at times a blank slate to be able to fill in the fact that we're statewide is something that is a passion point for me that I knew going in. And we can, it's hard to show up in every corner of Maine, you know, and and with a team of 11 or 12 people like we are. Uh, you know, but I can go down to Machias for a day and a half, like I did a couple of weeks ago, and you know, and meet with education, economic, community stakeholders and say, what's going on that we need to know about, and that we could maybe help you all slingshot forward in some way. So a lot of the parts that are best about the job were the parts I did expect to be wonderful going in. So let me think on this for a second. What are the parts that maybe I didn't expect? Hmm. You know, I think I I think I I knew about this legislative education program that I mentioned earlier in the podcast, but peripherally, having either been a presenter or a host from time to time over the years. But I I think it has been deeply rewarding to realize what a unique honor it is to be trusted to deliver a program like that in a way that very few, if any, other organizations would be trusted. And we take something as kind of a sacred trust, um, you think about it differently, and you hold yourself to a maybe a higher standard. And and then the genuine like appreciation that they have for that opportunity that we give them, wish we could give them even more opportunities, and I think they do too. But I don't think people realize how incredibly intense and time-consuming the legislative process is once they truly get going. It crowds out those opportunities to learn more deeply about the issues. So, you know, that that program was probably something I knew of, but I just didn't appreciate how we were we were with them a couple of months ago and we had an evening, both educating them more about the state budget that they work on, you know, for those that aren't on the appropriations committee, uh, and having more conversation around civility and how maybe we could create a a better culture in that building, the way many of them aspire to. And they we asked them to brainstorm colleagues who should be recognized for modeling civility. And the first table reported out that they wanted to recognize MDF. And uh, you know, it kind of chokes me up even now, two months later, thinking about that moment of of course, like anyone, knowing that your work is valued, but also, you know, that that they appreciate how we are trying to help them build different muscle and and different ways of being in their really tough work in this polarized environment.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Wow, that's awesome. And just so the audience is clear, the the education initiative that you're talking about is Leadership Maine, right? Well, in this case, it's called Policy Leaders Academy. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

You know, we with Leadership Maine, for instance, we get 14 days with the class spread across a year that we take them across the main economy with the legislature. Effectively, we maybe get the equivalent of three and a half, four days total, you know. But one of them is a bus tour across rural Maine, often parts of the state they've never been to or never been to, except as a casual visitor and turning them on to the nodes of opportunity and innovation, you know, going through the French Fry Factory, you know, up in northern Maine, or, you know, going through the touch tank uh at Downeast, you know, applied Marine Institute for Marine Research, or visiting the Tree Street Youth Development Center in Lewiston, you name it, you know, turning them on to these pockets of inspiration and innovation across Maine. Um, so it's yeah, it's it's a it's a lot of work, uh, you know, because they all have opinions about where they should be going and not going and what, you know, the the leadership main class goes where we tell them to mostly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah, it's it's a lot of work, but it's super gratifying, you know, the amount of time that legislative leaders give us to take their folks out, their rank and file folks out across the state.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Yeah. Well, uh I got a couple questions left. One is I just wanted to flip the script for a moment. Is there a question pertaining to this meditation or this conversation that you would like to ask me?

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Yeah. Um, I'm just reading my notes about your opening reflection on impact or identity, make an impression or a difference, presence versus performance. You know, we're kind of the things that you talked through. You know, I think it's I guess I'd have a question for you, maybe blending both of these meditations that we've touched on, which is how do you think you tell the difference between when your team needs the calmness of presence and a safe place versus when they need to be pushed to maybe go beyond what they ever thought was possible?

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I think part of it uh has to do ultimately with whether or not there's uh accountability for execution happening. Like I can see the performance in the team itself is moving us forward. And at the same time, that ability to kind of step back and say, listen, I can see that there are a few people on our team that may not be executing the goals that we have set out as a team. And I think that's the most beautiful part of it is that you know, if it's kind of like um if there was time, and I know there's not, but if there was time to have the policy leader academy group for a period of time to make it make the itinerary in consensus, right? Before they went out, their ability to engage and be bought in is gonna change dramatically versus being in a situation where they're saying, hey, you're bringing me to this place and it doesn't feel good to me, or X, X, Y, and Z. That particular piece is something that I've really tried over the years to build buy-in through voice and choice with the team on particular goals. And then if they have had a voice in the process by creating that safe space and they're having the chance to feel like they belong, but also have a contributing voice as to whatever the objective is, and then they're not performing. My job is to kind of go outside the room, as you say, and really begin to try to understand where they are, because they wouldn't be there if I didn't know that they could execute. So there must be something else going on that I'm not attuned to. It could be something in their personal life, which is none of my business, but at least we could name it and create more compassion and more slack, but also a plan to uh overcome that, uh at least at work. And so uh a lot of that idea of presence is at first as a baseline at the minimum, creating that safe space where people's voices can be heard, even though and and we're we're taught like I think about trekkers. One of the things that as you were talking about what you love about the work, it involved cohorts, you know, these cohort of people from different walks of life, it involved travel, it involved conversation and education, exposing people to different people, places, cultures that they may have never been to. You've just described trekkers in and of itself. And I think that's probably why we we I always uh connected with you at first. But the point being that in that process, the first thing we do with youth is teach them a consensus decision-making process so that they have a voice in anything that we're doing. Now, if they're not if they're not able to execute on that thing, then we see it as an opportunity for growth. And where can we help them? Where can we empower them? Where can we that sort of thing? So I I think it's it's a little bit in that's how I would answer it. I also think that part of the I don't think I could have written this particular meditation, you know, 15, 20 years ago. You know, because I think for me, I grew up with a lot of people where ego was very involved in their leadership work and growing up, and that became attractive to me. You know, uh I I was modeled to do various things, and and so I've had to work really hard at sifting through that, and that's why of of getting clear as to what that center is, what does authenticity look like?

SPEAKER_00 58:47

It took me a while to maybe appreciate that, like if if you're a leader, you get credit for stuff even if you had nothing to do with it. So, this idea that somehow you need to get credit or need to even care or think about who you know, whether you're getting credit is usually a non-event. And in an extreme, I remember when Angus was governor and they had a deal on spending, and then the legislature passed a bunch of smaller spending bills off the table and he vetoed them all. And he even vetoed one to increase funding for meals on wheels. As he said, that's that's why I'll I'll never run for president. Um, but you know, but they passed it over as veto and he got credit for it anyway. That's kind of an extreme, but I think you know, it really drives home the point that, you know, if you're in charge when stuff happens, you get credit and blame no matter what. And so you gotta just stop thinking about it. You know, I my it's interesting this point about presence because it brought to mind for me one of the hardest things I ever did as a leader. We had some turnover when I worked at the bank in the leadership in kind of our sub-region in the Farmington area. And so we'd been through a transition, and then I think a few months later, another person went and left for a cut for the competition or whatever. So I said to the regional manager, like, hey, you know, can I come over and do something to help show the flag and help maybe stabilize the situation, thinking I'd go out and meet with some major customers over there. And she said, Well, you know, it's pretty unsettling to the staff. So the best thing you could do is come and spend time with our frontline tellers and customer service reps. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, not quite what I had in mind, right? So I literally went over there and had like six consecutive brown bag lunches with the tellers. And I'm like a 40-something, you know, senior executive coming over from Bangor, sitting with a bunch of 20-year-old tellers in onesie twosies. And it's like, what are we gonna relate about? You know, and certainly we found things to relate about. But to your point, like uh that kind of came to mind of just like the power of showing up because it was not what I envisioned, you know, to do at all as a leader. And yet it what was what was needed in that moment was to show up and say, hey, we care about the people working over here in the Farmington branches. And uh it was a privilege to do it and and very hard, as simple as it sounds, you know, to not be performing, to your point. I'm not gonna be judged by a bunch of 20-something tellers by how smart I am or how eloquent I am or how well I can talk up the company's mission statement. You know, it's just gonna be kind of unvarnished, like are you know, do you care and are you relatable?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

Yeah, that's really well said, and I think it really hits the point of this particular meditation because you weren't going there to perform, you were going there to listen and build trust and uh meet them where they were. And and you could say that's a form of performing, yes, but it wasn't about making an impression necessarily that was ego-driven.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

Well, in a way, like it was the hardest performance of my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Yeah, it's incredibly difficult to do. It's so true. Well, let me uh close with this question. For younger leaders uh who are still finding their voice and their own uh center, so to speak. What advice would you offer about navigating the tension between wanting to be visible, wanting to perform, versus being authentic in your approach to leadership?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

I I think it's often going to be a false tension. I think I think work on work on things that matter to you and work on things that matter to the organization and you will get noticed. And if that something is serving an individual client, if that something is chipping in on an internal initiative, you know, if that something is going above and beyond. I mean, I I think if if you know, if you work at an organization that in general systematically does not value the things that you value, then you need to be looking around for a different organization at times. But you know, if if you feel there's some alignment there, but it's it's you can sometimes push an organization to live up to its own stated values and do that in a in a diplomatic and you know appropriate way that just is in the flow of the work that you have a chance to influence by go, you know, living that out yourself, going above and beyond in ways that matter and and modeling and therefore pushing kind of your near peers to go above and beyond and pursuing those values.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Well, yeah, well, I've been looking forward to this for about two weeks, and I'm really, really grateful for your time, not only your time today, but your time on vacation for for spending some time with me and uh sharing your insight and wisdom with the audience. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Thank you for having me. And frankly, being away from the fray allows me to give this the reflection that it deserves and you deserve. So thanks for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Absolutely. So if you just stay with me for two more minutes and we'll close this out. So I'm gonna just there's so much. I've got three pages of notes here, but I think I think worth highlighting and taking away from my conversation with Yellow has to do with when I asked him about what how he handles the uh amount of potential tension and trying to get to compromise. He mentioned that he really tries to intentionally de-escalate the situation. He tries to deeply listen so that he can understand and unpack where someone's coming from. And learn that sometimes it's not what you say, it's what you don't say. And in that process, it can lead to uh incredible compromise that you never see coming. So that was you know a big piece there, because I do think it's something that right now we need more of in our in every system that we're walking into. And uh it takes somebody to step back and be the person that models all those things that uh Yellow was talking about. I love the story at the end about the the power of presence, the the difficulty of of showing up for six different lunches with um the tellers at the Bangor Savings Bank when he was an executive and the The power of just building trust in that space, which is part of what I was referring to in my answer to his question, which was if you can get that trust right, if you can build an environment where people feel trusted, where they feel safe enough to share their views, perhaps safe enough to be just uh to disrupt things without being disruptive, as he said, which I really, really loved. Um, I think that's key. And somebody's got to take the initiative to set that tone, to set that space. And so in this case, he he did. So I really appreciate about that. And then he did mention two other things. One was that ability to meet somebody where they are, that if you can just assume that people are all looking to advocate for what they see as the common good, even though you might not agree with it, but they're advocating for the common good, that they're starting with good intentions and then meeting them where they are, and then going from there. And then finally, his last piece on this idea of what can younger leaders do. It's a simple, simple piece, which is like work hard on things that matter to you that moves the organization forward, and you'll be noticed. And by doing so, you'll get the recognition, but also at the same time, you're authentically pursuing something that matters to you. So awesome conversation. As always, I want to leave the audience with two reflection props. One is in what areas of your leadership might you be trying to make an impression rather than acting from your center? And what might be driving that? In what areas of your leadership might you be trying to make an impression rather than acting from your center? And what might be driving that? And before entering your next meeting or leadership moment, can you pause and ask yourself, am I here to make an impression or to make a difference? Again, as we close, just want to thank Yellow again for joining me. I knew the conversation would be fruitful, but I know that could have lasted another hour or two. So thank you for your time. And uh, as always, thanks to Omar. He's been so helpful and guiding these conversations through his effort as an engineer. So I thank him for his creative touch. And if today's episode resonated with you, I just ask that you share it with one person. It'll help grow the audience. If you have a reflection or thought from me that you'd like to share, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Thanks for listening. And please remember the journey of leadership begins within the city.