The Strength To Not Take It Personally

What does it take to lead with heart without being undone by other people’s reactions?

In this episode of Meditations on Leadership, Don reflects on the inner challenge of not taking things personally, especially in moments of tension, misunderstanding, or silence that can so easily pull us off center. He is then joined by Jamie Dorr, Executive Director of Midcoast Youth Center, for an honest conversation about emotional immunity, sensitivity, self-awareness, and the kind of grounded strength that allows leaders to stay clear, compassionate, and steady under pressure.

A deeper invitation: the goal is not to feel less, but to stay rooted enough that what we feel does not begin to control how we lead.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what happens inside you when someone misunderstands you, questions you, or responds in a way that stings more than you expect it? Can you stay rooted in who you are without taking on what does not belong to you? Those questions take us beneath the surface of leadership, into the inner spaces where our need for approval gets exposed, where our emotional steadiness is tested, and where we are invited to grow stronger without becoming harder. This is the heart of this particular episode and this podcast, really. As each week begins with a meditation followed by a reflection and conversation, all in the service of the deeper work leadership asks of us. And today I get to explore that work with my guest, Jamie Dore. Jamie is the executive director and founder of the Midcoast Community Alliance, a grassroots organization she launched in 2016 in response to several youth suicide losses in the Bath area of Maine. Since then, Jamie has helped turn heartbreak into action, building innovative and deeply needed supports for young people across Sagadaha County, Brunswick, and Harpswell, as well as the Bath community. She is the force behind Midcoast Youth Center, which now serves more than 650 youth each year with a safe and welcoming space to go after school. She's also helped create the Mary Meeting Support Collaborative for Youth Experience Homelessness and played an important role in helping her community secure a working communities challenge grant from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, which was focused on reducing youth hopelessness and strengthening the web of support around young people. I first met Jamie a number of years ago, but I got to know her much more deeply in 2022 when Midcoach Youth Center became a partner with the Aspirations Incubator. That choice said a lot about who she is. Jamie wanted to bring a long-term mentoring model to her community because she believed young people need more than programs. They need enduring relationships, expanded possibilities, and of course, adults willing to stay. Her work has earned 15 awards at the local county and state level, including being named the 2019 Difference Maker of the Year by the New England Patriots. And as if she does not have enough on her plate, she also serves as a board chair of her local school district. Over time, Jamie has become a friend, and I have come to see her as a fearless leader, clear-eyed, deeply committed, and unwilling to look away from what her community needs. Jamie, thank you for joining me on Meditations on Leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, thank you so much, Don. And it's a it's an honor to be here today with you and talking about this topic.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Awesome. Well, let's jump in. I'll uh read meditation 33 from the forthcoming book. It's titled The Strength to Not Take It Personally, which is a theme that Jamie picked for our conversation today. So I wrote down this quote from a woman named Dr. Joan Rosenberg. It says this emotional immunity is the capacity to experience and move through unpleasant feelings without being derailed by them. Emotional immunity is the capacity to experience and move through unpleasant feelings without being derailed by them. Few things have shaped me more, both personally and professionally, than learning not to take things personally. As a leader and as someone who is emotionally intuitive and deeply attuned to the people and energy around me, I have always felt things with intensity. I notice tone shifts, body language, silence, and withdrawal. I often sense what is not being said long before it is ever spoken. That sensitivity has helped me build trust, read the room, and respond with care, but has also made me incredibly vulnerable to interpreting other people's behavior as a reflection of me. Was it something I did? Was I unclear? Unfair? Too much? Not enough. This is where the idea of emotional immunity by Dr. Joan Rosenberg has become so important to me. It is not about shutting down or becoming numb. It is not about acting aloof or pretending not to care. Emotional immunity is the inner strength to feel disappointment, disapproval, or discomfort without being thrown off the course by it. It is the ability to stay rooted when hard emotions arise and to resist the urge to make everything personal when it is not. That is easier said than done. If you lead with heart, if you invest deeply in people, if you genuinely care about the relationships around you, then of course it stings when you feel misunderstood, dismissed, or mischaracterized. But that sting does not have to settle in and take over. It does not have to distort your clarity or pull you away from your center. One of the most grounding reminders I have found on this path comes from Don Miguel Ruiz and the four agreements. And one of those four agreements was don't take anything personally. What others say and do is often a reflection of their own reality, their own experience, their own inner world. That truth is both humbling and freeing. It reminds me that I can stay true to my values even when others misunderstand me. It reminds me that I do not have to chase down every misperception, defend every decision, or carry the full emotional weight of someone else's response. Their reality is theirs. My responsibility is mine. Now that does not mean we stop being accountable. It does not mean we stop listening, seeking feedback or growing, but it does mean we stop giving away our peace every time someone else is upset, disappointed, or unsettled. Over time, I've come to believe that emotional immunity is one of the most important leadership muscles we can build. Because when we stay grounded in the face of judgment, tension, or misunderstanding, we are far more able to lead with clarity, compassion, and courage. The goal here is not to feel less. The goal is to stay rooted enough that what we feel does not begin to control how we lead. And sometimes the most courageous thing a leader can do is not react, not spiral, not overexplain, but simply remain centered in who they are, what they value, and why they lead. So I'm gonna just offer a quick real-time reflection here and just say that if I'm honest, one of the hardest things for me on a personal and professional level has been learning what to do with silence when it comes from somebody on my team, a member of the community, or even someone in my family. Not thoughtful silence, not reflective silence. I mean the kind that feels passive aggressive, withholding, or loaded, the kind that shows up in real time and leaves you guessing. Because when someone goes quiet in a moment of tension, that silence can be interpreted a hundred different ways. And for someone like me, it can be a fast track into taking it personally. I start wondering what I may have done wrong, what I missed, whether I have disappointed them, or whether their silence is saying something about my worth, about my leadership, or my place in the relationship, or even the community. Over the years, one practice that has helped me comes from Byron Katie, the author and teacher behind a method of self-inquiry called the work. She says that when these times happen, when we're met in that spiraling space, she offers four questions to ask ourselves. Is what is happening true? Like, can you absolutely know it's true? That's the second one. So the first two, is it true? Can it absolutely know it's true? And then how do you react when you believe that thought? And who would you be without it? Then she invites us to turn the thought around and look for real examples that challenge what we assumed. When I go through this exercise, I find it incredibly grounding because most of the times I cannot absolutely say what I'm feeling is true. It's my own perception, and it might be way off. Because so often the suffering is not just in the silence itself, it is the story I attach to it. And leadership, at least for me, has meant learning how to not let someone else's silence or their narrative become something I automatically make about me. And instead, I am working on building emotional immunity. So, Jamie, as you heard the meditation and the reflection, what stayed with you, what stirred inside you, something in your own experience.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Well, I'm so excited that we chose this topic. Um, when I look back over my time with Midcoast Youth Center, this summer we'll be celebrating 10 years. Um, so for 10 years, I've been doing things that I have never done before, making lots of mistakes along the way, and also really learning a lot about myself. I, as you're winding down on that meditation, I thought just, you know, two weeks ago, I was in a convenience store in an airport. And right at the checkout, there was a book called Don't Believe Everything You Think. So I grabbed it, haven't read it yet, but it's definitely on the top of my stack. Because I think that we can very easily go down some rabbit holes of taking other people's perceptions and believing them. And like you said, attaching a story. I would say, from my own personal experience, I started out on this journey as someone who would be described or self-described as a perfectionist, um, as someone who wants to please everybody and anyone who shied away from any sort of confrontation. Um, so feeling that silence and letting it stay and maybe fester in a way that wasn't healthy is are all of the things that I can look back on and say, wow, okay, that's that's who I used to be. And you can get lots of great accolades when you're in a position like mine, and it can do a lot for the ego. But really, it's when those confrontations come up or people are saying, misinterpreting maybe who you are and and your motives for doing the things that you do. I think in leadership, you have to be someone who can make the decision even when it is not the most popular decision in the room. And I've had to learn to let go of the perfectionism or the desire to make sure that everybody was happy with me all at the same time, because I knew in my heart and deep down in my belly that what I was doing was right. And that's not to say that there haven't been times where I've had to talk with people to say, this is what I'm experiencing. Am I like totally way off base? And you know, I'm very blessed. I have my husband who has been my best friend for decades, but I also know that he would never probably tell me, yes, you're doing me all of these things wrong. He would be more supportive and protective of me. So finding people that can can help you sort of look at things objectively to say, where did I go wrong? What do I learn from that? And and how do I take that into the next level of my leadership?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Well, I am also incredibly grateful that you picked this topic and that you were willing to come on and talk about it because it's not something in my years talking with leaders uh that I've talked a whole lot uh about with them. I think it's a it's a challenging topic because it is so personal and it does, I do believe it's a topic that however we handle this on a personal level in our personal lives is definitely how this is showing up in leadership spaces. Um, it's one of the probably the most obvious one. And I guess when you hear the phrase the strength to not take it personally, what resonates with you the most in your own life or leadership? That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

I think what what I've learned, um, particularly over the maybe the past four four years or so, is is really that it's not connected to my worth. That um if someone has an experience and they're sharing something that's critical of you, you can look at that and say, okay, are there any parts of this that I could learn from? I'm not perfect, right? And that's that's been hard for me to come to sort of grips with is that do make mistakes, I can make mistakes, and it's okay to make those mistakes as long as you're learning from them and moving forward with better intention or awareness. But I think it it's it's definitely something that you have to practice like any anything else and exercise and recognize we don't know it all, and that there may be truth in what's being said, but there also could just be a lot of other things that are happening. I think, especially as a woman in leadership, there are expectations of how I will respond or act or behave. And I think sometimes if I were a man, some of the things that I might do or the decisions that I make wouldn't be questioned in the way that they are because I'm a woman. It's taken me a lot of time with you and therapy and and other things to sort of understand that component of it. But really, I think it's learning how to not use other people's opinions and feedback for your own self-worth and value. And that's it's it's not an easy thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Well, I, you know, there's so much here, but let's um level set this a tiny bit. And I'm just curious how you would answer this. But for people who lead with heart and care deeply about relationships, why do you think it can be so easy to internalize other people's reactions? What do you think is going on on the human level here?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I think because we care so deeply, and our hearts are, at least for me, it's always been very much about the mission, very much about young people and wanting to do the absolute best that I can. And you care about the people that are giving you that feedback and wanting them to understand maybe your perspective or understand where you're coming from and try to rationalize with them. I think in the past, when people have given feedback in the earlier days, I would become very, very defensive. Um, I would immediately try to almost was were reacting to situations versus sort of taking a step back and listening to what the person was saying. And then even just saying something like, thank you so much for sharing that. Let me think about that, and maybe we can reconnect in a couple of days, instead of launching into this rebuttal, and you know, everyone sort of gets, ah. But I think that's that's probably what I would share around that.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, I I agree. And I'm wondering whether or not you've experienced a moment when someone's criticism or disappointment or misunderstanding affected you more deeply than you expected. And what did that reveal to you? I'm not asking you to give specific examples, of course, because of you know, that's what not what here here do, but I'm I'm wondering about like how did it affect you more deeply than you expected?

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Well, you know, I can think of a certain situation where I think I cried every day for a good month, solid month, and just trying to it to kind of get through, and ultimately it led to me connecting with a therapist and and really sort of working through pieces of things that go all the way back to childhood, which I didn't really expect. And I I feel like when I when I think about this in in my growth, I truly feel like I couldn't understand what it means to be refined by the fire, where I thought I wanted to quit, give up. I was an absolute 100% failure. And, you know, if if these people who were at the time close to me, they in in my inner circle, then they must know what they're talking about. But then coming to a realization that they also have things that they're bringing into the workplace from their childhood or their dysfunction and relationships. And it took time away from that situation, um, or that situation resulted in us parting ways and sort of healing from that. But I picked this topic because I feel like it has been the most, the most tremendous growth in my journey in leadership is being able to say, I'm okay. I'm not a bad person. I it's okay, it's very freeing to say you can make mistakes, people are still gonna love you. Not everybody will, and that's okay. Not everybody's meant to stay with you for for this entire journey. But at the end of the day, when it comes back to motivation and why I'm doing things, it's really for the young people that I'm so passionate about. And I, yeah, I I don't know if I would share any more, but it's it's definitely been something that has knocked me completely off my rocker, if you will. So it's kind of having to climb out, climb back to who I am and knowing who I am in a stronger way now, so that when those Things are coming at me, I can process them and say, okay, what part of this do I own? Maybe none of it, but also watching those those thoughts that can start playing in that story real fast.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Well, so my contention with this uh podcast series is that you know we can only lead others as far as we've led ourselves. And this seems to be uh an area where it's like super clear as to that kind of equation comes up a lot because if if we're trying to help youth navigate their own adolescence and their own journey, or the people who were trying to build leadership within to take on these pieces, they could be knocked down by any sort of criticism or comment or constructive feedback or whatever it might be. And what I just noticed in your answer there, because the second part of the question was what did it reveal in you? And I think what I heard you say was that in the midst of receiving feedback that knocked you down, you used the feedback or the experience in and of itself as a way to be refined by the challenge that you were facing. And you took your own responsibility in trying to sort out what was real and what wasn't through having a safe space with a neutral person to provide you feedback that's where they are not associating you with the job, but with you as a person to be able to have a sounding board that can reflect back to you things that might be tough to hear, but also freeing you from not having to believe everything. Would that be kind of a fair assessment of what you were sharing? Yes, 100%. 100%. So one of my questions was like what practices, experiences, or inner work have helped you build that kind of emotional immunity that lets you stay grounded when things do get hard. You've talked about your husband, you've talked about um some coaching, you've talked about some uh therapy. Are there anything else I'm missing in terms of that particular piece?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Well, I think you know, you mentioned that you can only teach others what you yourself know. And I think what one thing that um you and I have talked about in terms of our coaching relationship is this thought of continuous learning and continuous feedback, right? So we want to be hearing things that maybe are not comfortable for us to hear because we want to continue to grow and learn. And I think it's really that realization of, yep, I'm a messy person, just like the next person next to me. Um, and I do my best and I try my best. And if I make a mistake, again, it's not that I'm a bad person or that I'm not worthy, it's that I need to grow in that area. And so what we have been trying to do here at NYC is also build that into our culture for our staff so that we can provide that feedback in a way that doesn't devalue you as an employee. Instead, we want you to be help grow to your best, absolute best self, and vice versa. I want people to be able to walk into my office at any time and say, Hey, can I talk to you about this? And I think that was the other thing that I've had to learn is you know, I'm introverted, I'm polite and nice, I don't like confrontation, still don't really like it, but I've learned that we can't shy away from it. And it doesn't have to be an argument. It's it's just it's more of that conversation of, hey, you know, I've been picking up on some tension. Can we talk about that? Knowing that usually the next thing that's going to be coming out from that person's mouth is criticism for myself. And again, taking that and saying, okay, what of that is mine to take and learn more about myself and build skills in, and what is what can I just set aside and let them sort of offload and help them figure out uh maybe why they're feeling that way. But I think it's just not being afraid of that confrontation and not being afraid of what they're going to say. And I think what I've learned is that it you just listen to it. You can't always absorb it. It's never easy when someone has a criticism of you. But there's always going to be somebody somewhere that has something that hasn't sit quite quite right with them. But that's where I'm at. I'm I still it still hurts. It's still not fun. It's still not like I wouldn't wake up and be like, all right, let's see who we can talk to today that wants to tell me everything I'm doing wrong. Um, but I'm not afraid of it like I once was.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Well, I think just relating it to my own experience, some of the things that you just shared made me think of, which is that I had the earlier in my career, part of this has to you brought up ego. I would bring up identity. My my identity is me as a leader, and while there's truth to that, what I do is not who I am in many ways. Like I'm taking on a role to provide leadership as an executive director or a founder or a coach or whatever it might be, whatever role I'm in. But that doesn't necessarily immediately say, like, well, that's who you are. Well, no, no, I've got multiple layers here, and it doesn't define me. And yet it's such a um, I think if I'm honest, it's such a contagious or uh or um it's identity that I love. I mean, I I I love being a leader, I love being somebody who's seen as a leader in the community. I love being able to see the potential in others and and provide support as a way for them to become that same type of leader. Like there's so much about leadership I love. And yet it can come to, especially in my early days, come to define me. So when someone might criticize my leadership, it was really hard for me not to absorb that what they were really saying was they were criticizing me as a person, and that's where this like really thin, thin, thin, thin line is. And um, as you were just talking right there, it just it's never uh too far from the surface when a new situation arises, but it's kind of um like one of the past podcasts I took, I talked about the spiral of integration. Like we're not starting at the point where we were 10 years ago when you started into this. You you have grown, and that cone or spiral is going upward, and you're you're not at the same place, but it's really easy to get like almost paralyzed by it that it puts you back into this other space. And that's why I think the inner work that I've done that you you are doing helps build that emotional immunity to a place of like, ah, I can hear this, but I don't have to make it derail the rest of my day or the week or a month. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yes, yeah, I'm not gonna cry every day for a month, hopefully. But I I would agree, I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

So have you learned to tell the difference between feedback that is actually yours to take in, and emotional weight that does not belong to you?

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Oh, that's a good question. Let me think about that. You know, I think it's a it's a continual practice that you have to be intentional and aware of and understanding. Again, I I think you kind of hit the nail on the head earlier when you talked about identity. You know, a lot of people had no idea who I was before NYC, and then I spent three years getting every award, you know, anywhere around. And so when anyone thinks of anything related to youth, they think of me. And so it it has been a huge part of who I am, but I think the work around separating my identity from the position is important, still something that I'm working through. And again, that ego, you really need to keep it in check.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

But yeah, I think I think well, I I I love the fact that I mean so much for me uh around this topic, which you know, honestly, it's not like anyone taught me this, you know, it's not like anybody like I never heard the word emotional immunity until I read that, but I was so glad for it because it provided language for something that I wanted to have. And because I am, I can get really in my feels, and I've obviously I've always said that when you are in your fields or you're in that space, your IQ goes down a lot and you make decisions that aren't great. But I love the fact that you kind of name this piece around really keeping a perspective on the person, meaning me, versus the position, meaning what I get paid for. And those two things, I can't I, you know, I don't want to say that they're like mutually exclusive or that they are um, you know, totally opposite of one another, but in some ways they are, and um, so it can get really difficult. I the the next question I had for you was, and this has happened to me a number of times, but you know, what do you think happens to a leader when they start over explaining, over-functioning, or trying to manage everyone else's perception around them? It it I feel like it's the um the best way I could explain it is like it's the old self coming out, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah. I think you have to be very aware of where you're spending your energy and why. Are you trying to get everyone back on because you're people pleasing? Are you trying to make amends? I think again, you have to have that wisdom and and learn the hard way to say what is mine and what is not. And if you get back into that old self, which is very easy to do because it's you know, it's a trained, it's a way your brain has been trained, then it can be it can be dangerous. And that's where you kind of lose focus on with the tasks at hand. What where do you what is your job here? What are you trying to accomplish? And I think for um, again, a woman who is a boss to people, one of the things that I just was floored around was there will always be people who come to work for you who do not like you, who do not like your style, who do not like your decisions. And that was really, really hard for me because I thought, gosh, these are the people that should love me the most. Um, and they don't. But there's a lot of dynamics there that are happening that I've had to learn to understand, to not take it personally. There's always going to be someone who has their own things who's not going to like you. And that's okay. That's okay. But I think just being very, very aware when you're in that headspace, how do you get out of it? What are your tools? What are the things that you've learned? Who do you go call and say, hey, I'm spiraling a little bit here. Can you help me just think through this objectively? And making sure that you have people in your inner circle who will help you um think about those things objectively.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, well, I I think the two things that I was thinking about as you were speaking, which you kind of named, which is having a real deep self-awareness. And that I think, you know, of all the conversations I've had, I think it's the one skill set muscle that distinguishes a good leader from a transformational one. Somebody that is really self-aware enough to know, like, okay, I can own pieces here without, you know, um, as you said, having it so connected to my own self-worth. But we've created mechanisms in which to get feedback as a way to ground ourselves into what is true and what is not. I also think that I know that this is one of your practices as well, it's one of mine. But when we get into these tight spaces, wherever in life, one of the things that I do uh is create space. And through, for me, you know, action absorbs anxiety, and therefore I have to move, I have to move my body as a way to create space. And so I intentionally go on long walks without any technology as a way to just get some perspective that can ground me. And I'm I'm wondering for you, what is the role of exercise in this equation?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yes, love it. Um I don't always love getting ready to do it, um, but I've never regretted it once I've done it. And for me, it's it's running. It's um, you know, I have a small child, so I can't just pick up and run anytime I want to anymore. But what I do is I close the door, and people know when mom has the door closed and she's on the treadmill, we do not bother her. And I'm usually cranking Taylor Swift and just in my in just have my own space. And I do notice if I go too long without that, it does bubble up in other areas. But I think it's important to have that space, to have those routines, to understand yourself enough to know what does make you feel better, what does give you a little bit of perspective. Um, and of course, as someone who's really an advocate for mental health and mental well-being, you know, knowing, understanding the science behind that movement and how how it helps your brain create um feel-good chemicals, which can help you just process things better. But yeah, it's a huge part, huge part of my self-care and and being able to process.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Well, as you think about this topic, do you have a question for me on it?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Well, I would say, you know, if you could think of a time where someone provided feedback or criticism of you, um, were there any times that you can sort of look back now and see that it really kind of rattled you? And and what was it that helped you get through that time?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah, it's interesting. I I'll give you one that really threw me off because it was so long ago, and I don't even remember. I remember the situation, but I don't necessarily remember names. But when I first came into Tenants Harbor by invitation of my uncle to at the time to finish out a practicum for my master's degree, I was in charge uh of organizing a three-day trip to Acadia National Park with young people, and that meant not just orchestrating the trip, but so much of the work is building a volunteer base to be mentors for kids while on the trip, on the expedition. And there was a small volunteer group already in place, and you know, again, I was new to the community, new to relationships, and um uh was coming off a two-year program, kind of living outside, it was all field-based, and I made some decisions around communicating rather than through email, but sending some stuff in the uh in the mail to the volunteers and writing things down and that kind of stuff, uh, for various reasons. I didn't have a laptop of my own at that time. I mean, this is you know, this is almost 30 years ago. But anyway, I you know, I'm doing my thing and get this incredible letter back from one of the volunteers just ripping me. Like, how could this so unprofessional? This is um this that uh oh, I remember what it was is that while I was on this program, one of the ways that I would communicate with friends and family was to use uh I would cut up cereal boxes and uh use them as postcards, and I would write everything down and send it off as a way to save time, money, and everything else. And I think I did that in this situation, and I got ripped so bad, and I, you know, I mean, I totally internalized it. I was like, how could I have been like and you know, like just the fact that it still stays with me today, 30 something years later, and it's one of the things that come up, but I think part of it was I was trying to establish myself as a leader in a situation with new people, and it hit me so unexpectedly, and I think that that's probably one of the things that is the hardest part about this emotional immunity piece because for instance, if if if I'm working with a team and I know that uh you know, I've given people as much agency as they want to be able to say and open up the come in anytime and share anything with me. I you know, I also know that there are a couple people who can you know take advantage of that more than than others, let's put it that way. But you can like, if you know that, you can okay, this is this could be a thing. I just need to listen, as you said, and I just need to take it in. I need to not to respond, I need to get some space, get some clarity, and then I'll come back. And like we build all of that, right? But when it's something that hits you unexpectedly, like uh an email or someone posts something online, or just like you never saw it coming. I find that those are the tougher moments in this role of leadership, not to take it personally. And so anyway, that's how I would answer it. I think what I learned from it was part of it contextually is that I I would have done, regardless of um where I was at the time, my mentality, my thinking, I would have thought about it a little bit more deeply about how I was interacting with a new group of people and just thought like, how could this land? And that would, I could have saved myself a lot of emotional, like you know, turmoil, turmoil time energy. But at the same time, I also thought, you know, I am who I am. I I I you know, I didn't hurt anybody in this situation. This was a total overreaction from this particular person. And I do think that there was like probably some territorial stuff going on that had nothing to do with me, like. You know, why is he getting to do this? I could have done that, and all those kind of things that just weren't mine to take on. But you know, when you're 28 and you're trying to make a name for yourself and a new community, it was a tough one to for sure.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I think you make a good point there, Don, in that un you know, being a good leader requires that you understand human nature. You know, you're telling me that story, and I'm thinking, okay, there's someone that does not like change in that group that was really, you know, taken aback. So, you know, understanding those dynamics again help help you to know what's yours and what has nothing to do with you, but it's just coming out on you.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Well, you know, you bring up, I mean, I think that's a really acute point around the change piece that that regardless of, you know, you see this happen all the time where organizations go through change, families go through change. I mean, I'm a stepfather of three kids, you know. And the human aspect of this is that this change then becomes personal to whomever is the one helping be the instrument of that change. And people leave organizations, you know, um, when those things, when change happens and all that kind of thing. When you think about working with your team, when you know change is happening, are there things that you're doing to prepare them ahead of time as a way to name some of the feelings and thoughts and pieces that come out in that? Like, what have you learned in if you if we take the variable of change as being that there's always going to be a reaction to it, what are we doing as leaders to to help soften the blow when we know change is coming?

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Yeah, that's a really good question and one that I probably am still really working on, um, especially running an organization that has had experienced tremendous growth, like every day something was changing, and understanding that there are some people who can thrive in that environment and other people who cannot, no matter what, no matter what. And just being able to sort of be the leadership voice in the room saying, yes, this is gonna feel uncomfortable, it's going to be new, we're gonna make mistakes, but it's the right thing to do. And you know, I think as we've grown here at MYC, we've really developed a strong leadership team. And I try to share leadership so it's not just all me that we, you know, that I view people as equals with me and helping to own that support of our staff. But yeah, I think it's definitely an area that I'm still learning because I can be hard to keep up with people telling me that. And I I do own that. And again, not everyone agrees with that. And there have been times where I've made that mis made mistakes in that, grown too fast. But again, self-awareness, that self-awareness, that good inner circle, and and not being afraid to be like, okay, yeah, you're right. Let me just back up here a second.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Yeah, well, I think that the ability to bring people along.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Uh, you know, when you're taught when when you are in these positions, the ability to communicate things that that you may not originally thought, well, these folks don't need to know. They're just they're doing this one piece within the the the overall design uh structure of the org, they don't need to know about this thing happening over here. But I think that the thing that I've learned over the years is that when someone comes and works for you, they're really coming to work for the mission. And if the mission is evolving, changing, adapting, iterating, that is part of their identity, regardless of where they are in the organization and our ability to kind of uh preface what's about to happen, our ability to pull them aside to say, hey, I know this isn't necessarily within your job description, but I wanted you to be aware of what's about to happen here that doesn't, you know, that doesn't get into HR issues, but just like the direction, you know, and um I think what happens is that we're so so busy that we don't take those extra steps sometimes. And it really can come back to bite us. It doesn't mean it changes the value of our own self-worth, but it does, it is a good lesson to learn when it comes to like, ah, I just need to slow this thing down a tiny bit as a way to get make sure everybody's rowing in the same direction in terms of where we're going. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yeah, that that word intention.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

Yeah. Well, let me uh ask you the closing question. For someone listening right now who is a deeply sensitive, deeply caring uh leader, evolving leader, and still learning how not to lose themselves in other people's responses, what would you like them most to remember?

SPEAKER_01 49:59

To go easy on themselves, you know, to find that safe space where you can talk about things and and maybe figure out where exactly that is coming from. Might be surprised to find the answer. But I think just yeah, being kind being kind to yourself and and remembering just because someone says it's true doesn't mean that it's true. Just because you're having that thought and repeating that story to yourself does not mean that it's true. Um, I go back to that book that's on the top of my list. Don't believe everything you think. And don't be afraid. It's not, don't let it diminish who you are, who you know yourself to be. Yeah, and just be nice to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Well, for a difficult um topic to discuss, it's a great way to end the podcast. Um, so Jamie, thank you for joining. Thank you for your honesty, your vulnerability, your willingness to talk about such a hard, hard, hard thing for all of us, no matter who we are or what role we're in. This is a this is a tough one. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Thank you. Thanks for letting me reflect back on on all the things that I've learned. And yeah, thank you very much, Don.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

You're welcome. If you uh could just stay with me for a couple more minutes, it'll take about two minutes and we'll uh close it out. And that way I can say goodbye to you at the end. All right. Well, I want to just share a couple of things I'm taking away from this incredible conversation. I first want to say that I think the biggest thing that I'm taking away from the advice that Jamie is um offered, and through her own experience and evolution on this topic, is that she learned that hard feedback is not connected to her self-worth. And that is an incredible gift and an incredible strength. Again, it's not meant to say that you don't hold oneself accountable for maybe some of the hard feedback that you've been given, but it just means that you're not tying your worth to particular times where you get tough feedback because you're always going to get tough feedback. It can help refine who you are, but it doesn't have to um determine who you are. And I loved her point about how those challenges gave her an opportunity to be refined by the fire. I also love the fact that one of the things that she said was that she saw this as a journey of self-discovery, continuous learning and feedback. It means that she's somebody that is curious about what other people are thinking and feeling. And knowing that as she gets into that curiosity, it means that she's gonna have to grow in different ways. And um, I I think that's true in any relationship. The more we're curious about something, the more we're gonna have to deal with whatever we find and say, hey, where can I adjust? Where can I iterate? Where can I? But it doesn't have to necessarily determine who I am. I love the fact that she pointed out the difference between the person versus the position and being aware of where you're spending most of your energy. Is it on the things that you don't want or the things that you do, or is it the comments you could get 20 comments in the day of how great you're doing and one that where things need to be adjusted? And are you focused on those 20 or are you focused on that one? It's a good question. And just in terms of some of the um practices, a really a commitment to self-awareness. What what what are your tools for self-awareness? Whether that's a caring partner, whether that's getting executive coaching, whether that's a therapist, whether that's a sounding board of some sort, where are you getting it? What are you doing? Where how are you creating space between the initial reaction to a and getting to a place of response? And then finally, being easy on ourselves and don't believe everything you think. So, anyway, incredible stuff, incredible wisdom in there. And as always, I want to leave you, the listener, with two questions for your own reflection. The first is this to ask yourself in what situations do you most often take things personally? And how has it affected your leadership? In what situations do you often take things personally? I mentioned the idea of like unexpected times, like things out of the blue. Like I if I know things might be coming, I can handle that easier than when I'm kind of thrown off guard. Um, and that can affect my leadership. And then, secondly, how might your leadership be different if you truly internalize that what others do is a reflection of them, not a reflection of you? How might your leadership be different if you truly internalize that what others do is a reflection of them, not of you? As we close, thanks again to Jamie for an incredible conversation and um just appreciate all she's doing in the Bath area of Maine. It's uh lives have been changed because of your leadership. So thank you. My thanks as always to Omar for producing this episode. You have given me so much time, energy, and effort. Thank you, Omar. If you found something meaningful here today and you would consider sharing this episode with just one other person, I would deeply appreciate it. That simple act can really help build this community. And if you have a reflection or a thought you'd like to share with me, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Thanks for listening. And always remember that the journey of leadership begins with them.