The Day It All Makes Sense

What if purpose does not arrive all at once, but reveals itself through the people, questions, and experiences that bring us most alive? 

In this episode, Don reflects on the quiet clues that point us toward our deeper calling and is joined by Tom Kulp, whose journey from longtime engineer to Director of Experiential Learning at Urban Promise in Camden, NJ is a powerful story of courage, alignment, and following what has been true all along. 

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what if the clearest clues about your purpose in life have been with you all along? What if the moments that make you come alive, the work that gives you energy, the places where time seems to disappear are not accidental at all? What if they are pointing you towards something essential? Those questions lead us into one of the deeper parts of leadership, the work of paying attention to what is most true in us and having the courage to build a life around it. As I like to say, the work behind the work. That exploration is at the heart of this podcast. Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a reflection, and then a conversation, all in the service of the deeper work leadership asks of us. And today I get to explore that work with my guest and good friend, Tom Colt. About 15 years ago, I first met Tom through Urban Trekkers in Camden, New Jersey, a sister organization of trekkers in Maine. Back then, Tom was driving the bus on educational expeditions as a volunteer. But it did not take long to realize he was bringing much more than transportation to the experience. From the very first conversation I had with Tom, I found myself drawn in by his calm demeanor, his kind heart, and his deeply inquisitive mind. And whenever all three were on display at once, which was often, I always left one and more. What makes Tom's story so compelling is that for decades he built a successful professional life as a licensed engineer, business owner, and structural assessment expert. He spent more than 30 years in engineering, including leading his own firm and serving as a partner in a long-standing practice. But all the while, another calling was steadily growing alongside that career. Through nearly three decades of volunteer leadership with urban promise, through urban trekker expeditions, urban boat works, youth mission trips, and hands-on formation work with young people. And then one day it all made sense. Tom made the courageous decision to step away from a long-established profession and follow the deeper calling full time. Today he serves as the director of experiential learning at Urban Promise Ministries, overseeing boating, trekking, and outdoor education programs. And he also leads the Henson Heritage and Training Center, where he's helping shape workforce development and skilled trades training for the next generation in the communities of Canon, New Jersey. Tom is one of those rare people whose life reminds us that purpose is not always something we invent. Sometimes it is something we finally have the courage to follow. And I am just really grateful to have him on with us today. Tom, thank you for joining me on Meditations on Leadership.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Thanks so much for inviting me to do this. I'm honored. And I appreciate that introduction. It sounds way better than the reality, actually.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Well, I don't know about that, but I look forward to jumping into a deeper conversation with you. Um, but let me start with the meditation 24 from my forthcoming book. It's titled The Day It All Makes Sense. And it's a theme that Tom picked for our conversation today. And so here's the quote that I wrote down in my journal. It's by Mark Twain. It goes like this The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. I have carried this quote with me for a long time. Not because I think purpose arrives all at once, clear and complete, and not because I believe there's one perfect answer out there waiting to be found. That was not my experience. For me, purpose unfolded more quietly than that. In my early 20s, I was in Maine visiting family. One afternoon, I was sitting with my aunt Judith on a stretch of jagged rocks along the coast, just outside her house. The wind was strong, the waves kept crashing below us, and we were sharing the kind of silence that does not need to be filled. Knowing I was going through a lot at the time, Judith gently asked me two questions I've never forgotten. What are the things in your life that give you the most energy? The activities where time disappears and you come alive. It was such simple questions. But they landed with weight. Not because I had never thought about what I loved, but because no one had ever asked me to treat those things as clues. As if what brought me alive might actually matter. As if joy, energy, and meaning were not distractions from my path, but signs pointing me toward it. Later that day, I went back to my room and made a list of my journal that made me feel most like myself. Here's the list: working with youth, traveling and experiencing new cultures, creating community with others, serving others, having honest, soul, deep conversations, being in the outdoors, and building things that matter. When I shared this list with Judith, she listened intently. Then she looked at me and asked, What if you could build a life around those? What if these are not just things you enjoy? What if they are pointing you toward your purpose? That moment did not hand me a blueprint for my life, but it sure gave me direction. For the first time, I began to understand that that purpose is not always something you discover in one dramatic moment. Sometimes it reveals itself through patterns, through energy, through the places where our heart feels most awake, through the work that leaves you fuller, not emptier. That day did not answer every question for me, but it helped me ask better once. And from that point on, my life no longer felt random. It began to feel connected, more intentional, gathered around something true. What I've learned since then is this your why is not something you find once and then hold on to forever. It is something you keep returning to. It deepens as you deepen, it changes shape as your life changes shape. But its roots are often there from the beginning, waiting to be noticed. When you begin to align your life and leadership with what brings you fully alive, something shifts. You stop trying so hard to manufacture meaning and you begin living from it. So if you are in a season of wondering what comes next, maybe start here. What makes you lose track of time? What gives you energy instead of just demanding it? What leaves you feeling more honest, more present, more alive? Because those things may be more than just interests, they may be clues, they may be threads, sacred hints about the life you were meant to live. So I want to just offer a quick real-time reflection on this meditation, the day it all makes sense. And when I think about it, I keep coming back to one thing from this meditation, and that is it all started with a question, not a strategy, not a plan, not some big breakthrough moment I created on my own. It started with a question, and not just any question, it came from somebody I trusted, a question from someone who cared enough about me to ask it. A question asked, not because, in this case, my aunt already knew the answer, but because she sensed that whatever my answer was, it might unlock something important in me. I think that is such a rare gift to have people in our lives who have earned the right to ask us those kinds of questions, people we trust enough to let beneath the surface, people who are not trying to impress us, fix us, or steer us, but who care enough to help us notice what is already true. And maybe just as rare are people are the people who want to be that kind of presence for someone else, the ones who want to be what I would call spark creators, the ones willing to listen deeply, ask honestly, and trust that one well-timed question can open a door in another person's life. That to me is part of this theme, is what this theme is really about. Sometimes the day it all makes sense does not begin with an answer. Sometimes it begins with being seen, with being asked, with someone creating enough space for clarity to rise. And maybe that leaves us with two questions of our own. Who are the people in our lives who have the permission to ask what matters most? And am I becoming the kind of person who can help unlock that kind of clarity in someone else's? Tommy, as you heard the meditation and reflection, what stayed with you? What stirred something inside you? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Well, so many things, really, actually, but two of them. One is that the day it all made sense wasn't a day for me. It was a long period of time. There was a moment when it did seem to make sense, like, okay, now's the time, but it was much later than than your moment, obviously, in my in my life. The other thing that really resonated with what you just said is that you you kind of gave a a partial or a strong definition for youth work in general. Are we becoming the people that can unlock that in other people? And in this case, being young people, so that they can get it early enough in their lives to really make a difference. And I think that's one of the thrilling parts of the youth work is to see that light go on. And uh, you know, it it doesn't happen obviously, even in the majority of youth, probably, but when it happens, it's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Well, I would agree, and and of course, that's why I love working with youth. In this case, I was in you know, my early 20s before that kind of um really what I think Judith was asking me to do was kind of a spark inventory. What you know, what were the things that sparked me? What were the things that that made me feel good? And I I wonder about like I I hear that this moment as you look back, it wasn't a moment, but it was kind of a a journey of sorts when it made sense. But I'm wondering, was it more that the clues had been there all along and you finally had the courage to follow them? Or what what was it? How did it unfold that way?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, that's a really good question. And you know me, so you know I I can't talk about this apart from talking about faith, also. And the thing it's interesting, that the thing that initiated me on youth work, I guess, was having a middle school age daughter, the oldest one out of three kids, and realizing that I was actually kind of afraid of high school kids. I remember being a high school kid. I thought a lot that if I were had to be the parent of me, that that wouldn't be a very hard position to be in, and I needed to know more about how to do that better. So the place I started to get into youth work or volunteer was uh at church. I actually started teaching high school, Sunday school, starting with a lot of trepidation, but then after getting into it for the first year, realizing it was really actually thrilling and exciting to be able to encourage kids to help them know that they're loved and they're valuable, and uh to see those lights go off, I guess, or light up. And I was able to do that before my my daughter was high school age, so I kind of set some groundwork to help me parent better, I guess. Uh, you know, it wasn't always ideal. I still was a parent and we still had lots of conflicts and I've made lots of mistakes, but um but that's what started it off. And and beyond beyond the Sunday school uh became uh youth short-term, what we called mission trips. Uh but for 11 years in a row, I I helped lead a one-week uh service trip, mostly to Appalachia, sometimes in various locations, and to work with a large group of youth in those situations. And again, to see lights go on around service, around caring for other people, around other people's situations that were not as easily explainable as they had thought before they saw them in real life. And uh that really got me kind of turned on and excited about realizing that encouraging youth was was, I'm gonna use the word calling, but it was becoming a passion.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, well, I want to get to the calling piece here in a second because I got a couple of questions about that. But let me just um ask you another question based on what you said. So, for instance, the other day when I first started this podcast, my wife uh was up in her office and I got done with maybe the second episode, and um, I got done, and she said, How'd it go? And I said, if I could do this for the rest of my life in some way, it just brings me so alive, and I think it establishes it goes along with some of the things I mentioned, which is creating these soul kind of deepening conversations, it's creating community. There's a number of things that hit on that list that I had originally. All that's to say is context. When you were doing the when you started off as the a Sunday school teacher for teenagers, did you have a moment where you left there go saying to Lisa, your wife, man, I just there's something about doing that that I felt so good when I was doing that. Like, was there was there clues then?

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, you know, as I mentioned, I was afraid of high school youth. I was afraid of parenting somebody who was like me when I was in high school. But the uh I was amazed at how easy it was, how much kids need to hear that they matter and that they're loved. And the relationships then just become natural from that point. And there's nothing to fear. You know, I think a lot of times the church is so focused on morality and you know, kind of the rules that I'm gonna say, not not everywhere and not at all times, but that when you actually talk about unconditional love and forgiveness and and the sacrifices that are made for those things to happen, kids accept it and understand it and are encouraged by it. And um I remember coming up from a Sunday school class to tell Lisa, you know, this is really fun. I mean, I'm seeing kids' confidence rise. I'm seeing, you know, just acceptance of self, maybe at some level. Uh, and you know, that's that's through a semester of this, not not uh in one or two outings. But um, yeah, so even early on, I think I was surprised, I guess, at how easy it was to transfer some positive energy to teenagers.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, you spent decades in engineering, which is, you know, knowing you, I understand why you'd be so good at it. And you established, you know, obviously a really amazing professional life. While giving so much of yourself to urban promise and your own church over the years, what at what point did you realize that what had been alongside your career was actually becoming central to your career?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

That's that's another great question. So, well, first you're very generous to say that my career was that impressive because I don't know that it was. I mean, I I did I did enjoy problem solving, I enjoyed helping people, and I I I think I became good enough at it that there was a lot of clients that appreciated the work. But honestly, life kind of happened and I followed it rather than leading it. I think I'm always impressed by how much you have paid attention to where things were going and looked at those markers hard and tried to follow them. And in my case, I was being smacked around by the markers. You know, I was being guided against my will and not not necessarily paying a lot of attention as a young person. But um, all that to say, you know, you have certain aptitudes when you're young. And parents, people around me said, Oh, you should be an engineer because that fits your what you're good at. And so I didn't even know what an engineer was, and I did that. And it was interesting. It fit my, you know, intellectual skills, I guess you could say. But the purpose in all of that, it is a good feeling to help people solve a problem. Sometimes the problems are not interesting or or self-made problems that somebody's trying to get out of, and and there's not necessarily a lot of reward in that. But your purpose, at least in my case, you know, I married my high school sweetheart. I started a family relatively early compared to sort of today's generations. And so my purpose came from taking care of that, you know, uh for guarding it, protecting it, providing for it. I didn't need as much purpose out of work at that point because I got so much purpose out of family and life uh around that. But even uh I'm gonna get too wordy here, even early on, as the you know, the Sunday school developed into the summer uh mission trips into volunteering for Urban Promise, you know, 20 years before I started with Urban Promise full time, I started to do plans for how could we help youth in Camden uh get real life job opportunities and career opportunities rather than just Be stuck in kind of dead end work. So I'm babbling a little bit, but all that to say the initial purpose was not really derived from my career, I would say. I mean, there was definitely benefits and pleasures and actually really some hard hard work in the career, but the purpose was in the family rearing and the kids. Um, now that they're, you know, the youngest one is 34, the it's much easier, or no, I shouldn't say it's much easier. What I should say is that purpose is much less immediate. And so the purpose that's evolving in in supporting youth has become much more the central purpose. And uh that's one of the things I, you know, I I wanted to ask you is like, how did you get it so early that you could go in this direction and live your life's purpose around your career rather than kind of having it sneak up on you over time and and and and finally become something that's central to your your your life?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, well, you yeah, I mean, as you were actually just talking, um, I really appreciate and honor the fact of how much joy that you've received from being in a position to with in partnership with Lisa to you know just grow this family, amazing family that you have. And it made me think that I didn't have that. You know, I didn't uh uh marry somebody when I was, you know, 19 or 20 or whatever would have been coming out of high school. You know, I didn't get married until I was 42. And I believe that the reason why, you know, not good or bad or indifferent, just different. And that is that I was so committed to the work because it it did just fire me up. I didn't have room to create those other spaces, those other opportunities. And it's really interesting that when I finally decided to move away from the front lines of working with kids and really dedicate myself to, you know, structuring the organization in a way where others could do it at just a high as high level as I was doing it, that created some space. And that's when I met Cheryl. So it it is interesting that way. But I think it was just that I always from that moment in those conversations with Judith, and I was always trying to follow those clues about like how can I how can I create something that would allow me to be so fully present into something? Think building something that mattered. And so in your case, you built something that mattered, which was this amazing uh family and and partnership with your wife and your kids, and obviously extending that to your own community and faith community, and then extending that into another community in New Jersey. And so I I see the ripple effects of that. I guess my question for you is you know, I keep coming back to the idea, as I mentioned in the meditation and the reflection, about how that purpose for me began with a question. And I'm wondering whether there were people in your life who asked you the kind of questions that helped you see yourself more clearly in the role that you're currently in versus the role that you took on professionally in the beginning of your career.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

That's interesting because I feel like I didn't appreciate the how much a mentor would be a benefit as a young person. You know, I tended to be too independent and and too much thinking. I didn't need to hear what other people had to say, I could figure it out on my own. So that moment of hearing wisdom from an elder, I don't think I even allowed it to happen, um, even if there were people that were trying to tell me. But as I got older, and you know, as really one of the big differences, again, in my life was just uh stumbling on faith, stumbling on the idea that there is real purpose in life, that there is a God that's in love with you, and that you're made for a purpose. That that changed my outlook fairly dramatically as a 30-year-old in a fairly short period of time, even. And then I think I started to listen better. And I I, you know, the ideas of purpose and meaning came a lot from what I'm gonna call the the true biblical narrative, not not the narrative that we hear so often from so many different directions that is manipulated. But and that was part of my encouragement to seek what was happening, what my purpose in life was. Then I did also hear from elders like uh very good friend who's a pastor, from people around me that were involved also in the in the youth activities that I was in saying that would encourage me and say, you know, you're real, you're important to this, and people are responding to what you're doing, and and this is something you need to pay attention to. Again, it kind of came from outside me more than than me seeking it. And I'm really glad I had those people in my in my life at that time, too, because it was really important to realize that other people had already figured this out and that they were great mentors and that I need to pay attention. So I hope that answered the question. I uh, you know, it's a little different than your your you as a young person hearing this so clearly. I needed to be smacked around for a while before it actually sunk in.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I think as I said, it even in the meditation, that this wasn't a quick overnight thing, even for me, even though I got clear, it gave me direction to pursue something that began to make sense. Once I started paying attention to the clues of things that gave me energy, and and in my mind, those are gifts that I had gifts of creating, gifts of relationship building, gifts of you know, asking questions, um, gifts of health to be able to be outside and and all kinds of things. So I want to ask you a question. I don't I just thought about it when you were talking, and hopefully I'll articulate this. In my mind, and please, of course, correct me on this. In my mind, an engineer is someone that has this incredible gift of the mind and um is very cerebral and being able to see angles and see how to overcome certain problems and be able to uh articulate that in ways that are structural and in other ways. But I'm wondering about whether or not you found yourself wrestling at different times of your life between what I would call like the 2-4 block. And I don't want to get too here, but in the chakras and this, you know, the different energy centers of your body, the the second chakras in the mind, and the fourth chakras in your heart. And they talk about this two-four block, where some people are incredibly uh intelligent but uh have a hard time bringing the empathy and bringing the compassion and bringing and and and and leading from the heart, they lead from their mind because that's where their gift is. And then there are other people who lead from their heart but don't lead from their mind. And I'm wondering whether or not like you struggled with the two four block at all. Uh, because I'm just kind of bringing that into the conversation, but I think it's so amazing in terms of your journey where you've been in the space of like, you know, probably spending more time alone thinking about how to structurally present something to somebody that can help them overcome their problem versus that idea of being out in the world and living from your heart. And so I just I know that was a beefy question, but nonetheless, what what stirred in that?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, I think it's really an interesting perspective. I love that two floor, two, four block concept, even it's the first time I've heard it. But um for me, and I I take this from especially what my wife has has observed, but I think I'm a little bit of an anomaly as an engineer. Um my wife has said I should have should have been a teacher. I should have just started out as a high school physics teacher or something because of the combination of youth and the combination of kind of interest in math and science. And I think looking back, that that's finally what I get to do now. You know, this is great. I love it. Um I'm I get to do both those things, but especially with uh workforce development. But I haven't had trouble, I think, living from my heart as much as I've had trouble being the super technical engineer, because after a while that gets dry. And um occasionally that's hurt me in my career because I I probably could have gone further in different directions if I would have wanted to dig deeper into codes and and go on to committees that develop codes and all the kind of highly technical, but it's actually and this is going to be off track, but it's the science and engineering that's appealing to me more so than necessarily than the execution of engineering, because that's where it gets kind of uh super detailed and dry. But um, so anyway, when you say that the two, four combination, no, I think I kind of didn't have a block with that. I think really maybe I was on the wrong track as an engineer for a period of time because of the lack of a four that was involved in engineering, you know? Um they they have come together, and I guess the way they came together in the past was you know, I was uh I was a two during the day and a four when I went home. So I had the two four going it that way. But um, so if that makes any sense, I but it's another interesting aspect of that to me is that I've encountered a lot of engineers who have gone into some kind of service for either kids or adults, or you know, there's an organization like Doctors Without Borders called Engineers Without Borders, where they dig wells in Africa and they build bridges so people can have access across a river that was never crossable and all those kinds of things. But even on mission trips, that always seems to me if you go to Katrina or you go to Florida after hurricanes, probably 70% of the people they're helping are engineers or contractors. You know, they just they just love getting in there and doing stuff for people that matter. So so yeah, I hope that answers the two, four block question. It's it hasn't been a problem for me to have my heart to have my heart in it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah, yeah. No, I I um I appreciate that idea of like two during the day, four at night or on the weekends and stuff. And so that takes me to that you made this significant shift later in life, which just without you know beating this uh analogy too far, speed it up too much, but integrating the shift really in my mind is really integrating the two four together and saying, I'm not gonna compartmentalize that, I'm gonna bring those two two things together. And you stepped away from your long-standing profession as an engineer, and I'm curious about what kind of inner wrestling did that require. And I the other second part of the question I have is as an engineer, uh, do you did you find it harder to take a leap of faith into the unknown because you needed a structure there that you could feel solid about before you took the leap of faith because of how your mind operates?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

What what yep? No, I get I get exactly what you're asking. And I think that need for certainty held me back for a good period of time, you know, and and the reality is you get three kids, you get college debt, you have a wife that is also concerned about you know whether we're gonna be viable or not, who has a real opinion in it. So you can't just say one day, you know what, I'm gonna go chase this dream because we'll figure out how to pay the college loans and don't worry about it, Lisa, it's all gonna be fine. But at the same time, over time, reading people like Richard Rohr, whose concept of all the learning happens in the risk areas and in the falls and in the in the mistakes, the learning doesn't happen in the successes. So after a while, you got to let go of certainty and say, um, you know what, this this may turn out not perfectly well, but you say you have faith. So let's let's go with the faith, let's go with the possibility of failure, let's go with the risks, and let's learn what there is to learn because you're getting older now and you're running out of time. And if you don't learn it now, you're gonna look back and think, man, I missed the main point. So yeah, it was easy, not a hard. I mean, it was definitely not a hard decision for me to say, I want to work full-time in this at Urban Promise and workforce development, etc. When Lisa bought in pretty much right away, I was I took that as a a sign. If you, you know, I don't know if that's a real thing, a sign, but uh that this was really the right thing to do and the right time to do it. And uh now I'm just hoping that my health keeps going and I can do this for a long time. I mean, at uh 69 years old almost, I I'd love to be able to do this into my early 80s if if my mind and body can can do that, because I just am enjoying the heck out of it.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah. Well, can you tell the audience when you made the shift, what age you were?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Sure, yeah. So I made the shift when I was 65. I started to prepare for it earlier. I I was in a small firm with a couple partners, and we were all getting close to retirement age and discussing what retirement is going to look like. And I I kind of said to them, you know what, here's where I'd like to head, and I'd I'd like to start to prepare for that. And so I on on good terms, I broke away from my partnership and I moved my little office into one of the Urban Promise buildings so that I could get closer on a day-to-day basis to what was happening, even though I was still an engineering office. I my rent actually helped support the program in a way, which is another motive to do that. And then I was really close day-to-day to the ground. I did that for two years. And then the opportunity came up when our good friend Jim Cummings was retiring from, he was actually the creator of everything that I'm now managing, uh, with the exception of the workforce development program. But uh so I was 65 years old when I when I just said, okay, let's this let's just do this full time. And um I I was not fully prepared to retire. So, you know, it I had always hoped that I'd be working for Urban for free when I made that jump because I'd be in that kind of situation. But I wasn't. But again, Lisa said, you know, let's do this. Urban Promise is gonna pay you. You can we can make this work. Let's let's go. So yeah, so it's been three and a half years of uh full-time. I'm gonna call it ministry, but it's not just ministry, it's it's uh all this youth development work and career preparation. And it's been great. It's just uh it was a great decision. I don't regret it in any way. Some things are harder than they were, but most of life is better than it was uh by far.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah, well, uh thanks for that. 65, it's amazing. I I don't know too many people who have done that at that age. So I honestly say that. Like I really don't. And I guess this might be might be hard to answer, but when you think about what you're doing now, do you wish you would have done it sooner?

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Oh man, that's a great one. Well, let me just say let me backtrack because of what you just said about jumping at 65. I'm I'm involved with I guess 16 men that meet regularly to talk just about life. And most of them are over 60, uh, not all of them. And there is a very common theme of purpose in these meetings. Uh a lot of these guys have retired. Some of them wish that they hadn't, uh, because they're they're struggling a little bit. Some of them are looking for purpose and some of them are finding purpose also in in really great ways. But it's a really common theme, especially if you've had a career that you really focused on the career and now it's over. Like, okay, you know, what am I gonna do with people that of my age? So I feel very lucky that at 65 I got to do this. This is a real blessing to me. Now, do I wish I could have done it earlier? I was going through some files and I found a business plan I made for to do sort of housing development with youth 25 years ago. Wow. And you know, I knew what I wanted to do then and I'm working towards it now. I do wish I could have done this earlier because I think I would have enjoyed my career more. At the same time, from a practical standpoint, you know, my kids went through 17 years of college, if you include the grad school. It's a lot of debt involved in 17 years of college, unless you're a very wealthy person. And I would have I could have done things differently in in hindsight, like everyone would say. You know, I should have told my kids you're going to to community college for two years, then you can go get a degree at a at a university. And then is that really true? Is the four years really what you need to grow up? Anyway, all those questions in hindsight are a thing. I don't think in my case, I was prepared to do what I'm doing until I was 65. You know, I think I needed to experience some failures, I needed to do things I didn't like, I needed to, you know, in Richard Rohr terms, I needed to fall down to move up. And I'm not sure if I would have done it when I was 45, I would have been so much more naive and probably maybe given up easily without having that more life experience. So I'm jealous of you that you figured it out so early and and you got to do this meaningful stuff for so much of your life. But on the other hand, in my path, I think it took this long.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, in many ways, your story where we started the conversation, that it challenges the idea that purpose is something that we have to figure out early in life. So I'm I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Well, and it shifts too, right, Don? I mean, purpose, it's great to have family as a purpose for a period of time. It's great to have uh maybe taking care of aging parents as a purpose. It's great to have there's all kinds of, and the purpose can definitely morph over it's not one life calling. I just feel lucky that I because I like this purpose that I get to do it now.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah, yeah. I guess I uh you're right. You and I and as I mentioned, it it purpose shifts and changes based on how your life shifts and changes. Um, I should have said in this question that the idea that purpose in terms of your profession is something that you again, not to say that you didn't have purpose as an engineer, but in terms of feeling more integrated uh as a human, as in terms of where your soul and and mind and spirit are. What would you say to someone who feels like they may not they may have missed their moment or who is only now waking up to what matters most to them?

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Well, I'd say it's not too late, obviously. Little anecdote. The other day I was driving past a building site where a small house was being built, and they were putting up trusses that that were like 32 feet long. This is going to be the engineer coming out for a minute, but we have a project with our kids in the workforce development where we have an opportunity to build a small building that has trusses that are 28 feet long. And to put them up by hand is not a trivial thing. And I saw that they were putting them up by hand without a crane. So I stopped and I wanted to ask them what's their process of doing this because I have a bunch of kids that don't have any experience that we have to stand these trusses up with. And the gentleman that answered my question that was on the job site was 85 years old. And he was doing these trusses with one helper. He's lugging these 32-foot trusses that are probably, I don't know, 400 pounds up a ramp, up onto the roof, standing them up, bracing them. And he was having the time of his life. I mean, he's downsizing. This is his house. He had a big house before and he wanted to build this small house. His wife recently passed away. And he was just thinking, this is just great that I get to do this every day. And he's 85 years old. And I when I drove away from that, I thought, you got plenty of time left. This is, you know, do what you can do for as long as you can do it. And so all that to say, if you feel like you have a purpose or a thing that you wanted to do and you're in your 60s or 70s, um, that you should you there's still time to do it, and you should pursue it by all means and get the joy out of it that there is. Oh man, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Like I just had the picture of my mind of this of this guy kind of focusing in on something that brings him so much joy and and uh at and at the same time working with his hands. And anyway, that's a beautiful story. So I I do have one uh more question to ask you, but I wanted to just see if there's a a burning question that you have for me on this topic. Um, I know you you asked me before, but is there anything else that you're thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah, I do wonder as I watch you progress and and you know, now you're instead of being in the hands-on position, you know, I feel like I'm Don Carpenter about 35 years ago right now. But I I I wonder what you see as your shifting purpose. I mean, you have a family now with kids to pay attention to, and and you're moving more into being an elder in all of this stuff by sharing this wisdom over time. So, what uh do you see a time when you're gonna ride off into the sunset and play golf every other day? Or how do you see this progressing to maintain purpose in your life?

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah, it's a really good question. You know, when I shifted from the foundation world of using the endowment of a the rural futures fund to help spread the model uh of trekkers to other places in the state, that was beyond my imagination as to how starting trekkers in in 98 would turn out to be something that would be scaled in in that way. And that came to an end December 31st. And I'm kind of in this um the first quarter and a half of 2026, really sitting with this question again. Sitting with what is my purpose for this next you know, remaining time I have in this iteration of my life. And while um I do get to play golf quite a bit because I'm down in uh Naples, Florida, there are pieces that brought me incredible, incredible joy, which is a being able to do this podcast, the time, energy, and effort it takes to do it. There's not there's just in preparing for today. I was looking so forward to just being with you for this hour, which we barely, rarely get to do. I know it's true. The the ability to really think through the questions in ways that I think you know honors you and your life, and just bring this to life and and to know that you know it's being listened to in 65 different countries and over 600 cities in the United States. And who knows, I it's just I love it so much, you know. And but the real joy that I've had is expanding a bit of the consulting work to really just be beside executive leaders like yourself who are growing into their positions, and me being able to be like my aunt, not you know, asking questions that can move things forward, but not necessarily knowing exactly from their perspective and their own professional lived experience, what is best. But it's just kind of you know, being able to ask questions. And I my dad asked me for some examples about like what I do in that work, and I said, Dad, it's it's really just being present for people going through things that they're passionate about and problem solving with them. And I it's it brings me back to being on the front grounds of doing that with youth. Even now I'm doing it with executive leaders, and so there's so many parts of this iteration that I hope I can, you know, gasoline can be poured on it and become an accelerant for being able to do more podcasts. This is number six 35, and I'm going to 52 because that's all the meditations. Who knows what will come next on that? And so we'll see. But I'm taking uh the advice of my uncle in the very first episode that we did on this podcast. He talked about taking a holy pause and just wait for things to show up, you know, stay stay at the kitchen table for a little longer, see what shows up. And in the mornings, I do this walk, uh, which I've mentioned on the podcast before, but it's it's just me out there in the dark because I get up um before the sun goes. And uh the prayer lately has been maystery, awe, wonder, and enchantment begin to sync with serendipity, opportunity, and possibility for me in this next chapter. So, in terms of I'm in a mystery right now, in terms of what will come next, there's a lot of wonder, there's a lot of awe thinking about it and just being present right now. And uh, I have found that that has always led when I've done that to some serendipitous moment that provides me opportunities to take all those clues and create a new pathway, so that's kind of what I'm doing right now.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

That's that's a great place to be. I mean, uh I love that.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah, it is a great place to be. And as you mentioned, there's a lot of uncertainty in it, and that is um not always easy for somebody who likes to always have a plan, but I'm doing my best, and I feel like um, you know, that process will be honored, and I just need to stay positive, poised.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

But on when you said that about uncertainty, that just that's one of the other things that came with time is that uh uncertainty is actually an important thing to have going. Because as soon as there's certainty, everything starts to die. You really have to have some chaos and some uncertainty going, or else there's no growth to happen. I don't know if you're familiar with Margaret We Lead all, but she she writes on this idea of instead of having a perfect plan and having everything nailed down, it's really riding the chaos and letting the chaos lead sometimes. That and like you you said it in a way by saying looking for looking for the the kind of signs and and motivations and and opportunities that all come together. There's definitely uncertainty in that, which is unsettling, which requires faith, which requires you know all the good things to get through.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Yeah, well, it reminds me of one of my favorite books of all time, and that is The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts. And uh the idea is that without insecurity, that structure that is so framed doesn't allow mystery in, doesn't allow wonder in. Exactly, you know, yep, and uh there's incredible wisdom in that insecurity, and you know, so the last part I have for you, because I think we would be remiss not to mention this part, because there are many people who may be listening going, yeah, this all sounds great, but there's a financial reality to this, and um, you know, you have mentioned uh throughout this conversation in different ways that you know there was a reality that you had kids and and and debt and this, that, and the other, and you had your own firm and you were weaning off of that. But I'm just curious, like how did the reality of a paycheck influence or not influence your decision to more fully align with your purpose?

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Unfortunately, I think the paycheck influenced me a lot. I I say unfortunately because in my master plan I had this idea that uh by age 68 I was going to be able to go to Urban Promise and work for free, basically, and do these things that I'm doing without requiring a paycheck. Uh, when the paycheck and the idea of actually getting paid to take on a position here opened up at 65, it allowed me to do that at 65, which I would not have done otherwise. And, you know, working with under I don't know if the word underprivileged is correct, but the the word uh we use underserved communities now all the time, but uh people with low incomes, that's just that's just a fact, their whole lives they may not have an opportunity to ever pursue their ideal purpose because of the realities that are around them. Yeah. And then and then that becomes a purpose, right? Like survival is it Maslow that said, you know, food, clothing, shelter, then I can worry about other things. Well, there's a lot of people that are still worrying about food, clothing, shelter. How do you pursue your purpose when that's your main focus? Yep. And the purpose becomes taking care of yourself at the base level, then taking care of some people around you at the next level. And you don't ever get to pursue some sort of esoteric's not the right word because we have real purposes, but some larger purpose. And so I guess what I would say, you're kind of asking how does money influence these decisions? I don't see a way practically that it doesn't. If you have total freedom, if you have nobody that depends on you to take a huge leap is reasonable, I think, because I think pursuing your passion always pays off eventually. But if you have a whole bunch of people depending on you and you're really feeling like, ah, if I don't do this passion, I'm gonna die. You have to examine who's depending on you and what's your love for them. And and you know, am I gonna pursue my passion at the expense of some bad things that could happen around me? And for me, that was a battle for a period of time. Like, I'd love to pursue this, but I don't think I can. So, anyway, I hope that answered the question.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Yeah, no, it's I you were very wise in there, and I'm thinking it makes me think back to you know, end of May 1998 when I said to Jack, Boy, I'd really like to take this to scale, this little program here, and create a model around it. How much money is in the bank? You know, because Trekkers was just like a little volunteer initiative at the time. He said, Well, we've got 1800 bucks. And you know, I mean, I'm 26 years old. I didn't have a family, but let's just say I had family. I'd have been like, I don't know about that, but because I didn't, I thought 1800 bucks is a really great place to start. That's awesome. So, you know, I it is, you know, perspective and context are everything, and yet did require a leap of faith even in that moment to say absolutely, let's go. So, Tom, what a privilege and pleasure it's been to have you on the show. I really appreciate you. I love you dearly. I'm grateful for all the things you've brought into my life since I've met you.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

So Don, that's that's yeah, that's so true the other way. I mean, you first meeting you when we were on those early trekker trips and seeing the way that you you manage those, I was I was in awe. And I just appreciate that I've been able to come into your life a little bit and learn so much and share so much stuff. And uh I love you too. There's there's you know, that's just gonna be an ongoing thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Yeah, well, with deep respect for our friendship and uh our adventures ahead. Um, I look forward to what's next.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Thanks, Don. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Okay. Well, if you could just um hang in there for just two more minutes and then uh we'll close it out. Absolutely. I just want to share with the audience kind of what I'm taking away from today's conversation, just in terms of what Tom brought to it. You know, I thought there were a couple like really magical things that he said. First of all, that the day it made it all made sense was not a day. It was a process, it was over a career, uh, it was over a lifetime, but nonetheless, he's now trying to live out that more fully and more integrated between the two and the four. I I also loved his uh honesty about the question about who in his life, when in his life did he surround himself with people who could ask him questions. And he said early in his 20s he he didn't. He, in fact, he he brushed those things off. But somewhere in his 30s, he began to listen to others. And you know, that's a really incredible insight. Like he had a self-awareness to know that he hadn't been listening to others, and there were these incredible people around him. And maybe if he began to listen, things would begin to shift. And that's exactly what happened. I love the fact that he was honest with the idea that his need for certainty held him back from pursuing things more carefree because of his family, because of the circumstances that were surrounding him in terms of family and uh his kids going to college and all these other things. And uh, it's so true that our need for certainty can sometimes hold us back uh before we can fully leap into something. I love the fact that he brought up Richard Rohr and then all learning happens uh from falling down. And Richard Rohr, for those of you who don't know him, wrote a book called Falling Forward. And um, I encourage anybody that want to read that because he's an incredible writer and he's got some incredible wisdom. But it's true that you know most of our successes aren't the places where we learn the most. It's in the failures or the falling down that give us the uh perspective we need in order to be successful later. And then finally, I just love the fact that he named that it was 65 that he made the shift. And I know that there are many people that make the shift around 62, 67, 72, because of you know the way our system is set up for people to retire. But he's not saying that he made the shift to 65 to retirement, he's made the shift professionally away from something he had dedicated his life to to something else. And for that, I applaud him beyond measure. And the fact that now he is training the next generational leadership coming out of uh Camden, New Jersey, not just with a sense of their passion and their purpose, but also in touch with their talent, their skill set. And so you combine purpose, passion, and talent, you can do almost anything. So uh big kudos to Tom for joining us. Let me uh offer two reflection prompts for the audience. I just want to leave you with these two questions. What consistently brings you energy, clarity and a deeper sense of purpose? What consistently brings you energy, clarity, and a deeper sense of purpose? And the second is how might your life and your leadership begin to change if you treated those things as clues worth following? We'll leave it at that. Tom, thanks again for joining me. It's been a pleasure, Don. So grateful. Yes, sir. Many thanks to Omar for producing this episode. If you found something meaningful here today and one like to reach out to me uh and share, please uh reach me at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Uh, please share it with one other person. I would be deeply appreciated if you could do that. Thanks for listening. And always remember the journey of leadership begins within the colour.