The Generosity of Being Fully Here

In a world shaped by urgency, distraction, and performance, what does it mean to lead with real presence? 

In this episode, Don reflects on the rare gift of giving someone your full attention and is joined by Martha Kempe, former Head of Schools at Wayfinder Schools, whose remarkable career building humane, resilient spaces for vulnerable people offers a powerful window into leadership shaped by compassion, depth, and care. 

Together, they explore how presence can restore dignity, deepen trust, and shape the kind of environments where people are more able to thrive. It’s a thoughtful conversation about the quiet, often overlooked ways presence can become one of the most transformative forces in leadership. 

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what does it feel like to be truly seen? To be with someone who is not rushing past you, not distracted, not already on to the next thing, but fully there. And just as importantly, what kind of leader do we become when we learn to offer that same quality of presence to others? Those questions lead us into an often overlooked dimension of leadership, the quiet practice of how we show up. Not just how we perform, respond, or produce, but how we attend, how we listen, how we make space for another person to feel that they matter. That is the heart of this podcast. Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a reflection, and then a conversation, all in service of the inner formation leadership asks of us. And today I get to explore all of that with my guest, Martha Kemp. Martha is a leader whose life and work reflect a rare blend of imagination, courage, and care. Though Martha and I have not known each other closely, our paths have crossed from time to time over the better part of three decades at conferences and shared spaces and through the wider circles of leadership and community life. And each time I encountered her, I came away with the same impression. Here was someone I wanted to know better. There was something in the way she carried herself: a steadiness, a depth, a kind of hard-earned grace that always stayed with me. So when I began making a list of the people I most hoped to invite onto the podcast, people whose leadership felt deeply formed rather than merely performed, Martha's name rose quickly to the top. Her journey has moved through art, expressive therapies, mental health, higher education, and school leadership. But through every chapter runs the same thread, a commitment to creating environments where growth, resilience, and human connection can take root. Again and again, she has stepped into places of transition and complexity, not simply to manage them, but to help build something better, something more humane, more dignified, and more enduring. Here in Maine, that calling found powerful expression through her leadership of the Passages program at Wayfinder Schools, a home-based high school degree program supporting pregnant and parenting teens, along with other young people in need of a different path toward graduation. Under her leadership, Passages expanded its reach and deepened its impact, offering not only education, but renewed possibility. What stands out most in Martha's story is that she has never seen to pursue leadership for its own sake. Again and again, she has responded to the moments where vision, compassion, and structure were needed most. Her work carries that rare combination of strength and tenderness. And it's a real honor to share this conversation with her today. Martha, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Wow. I've never been introduced that way. Thank you so much. That was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Well, thank you. You deserve every ounce of it. So I look forward to the conversation, but let's uh before we begin, let me jump into meditation 26 from my forthcoming book. It's titled The Generosity of Being Fully Here. And for the audience, you should know that Martha picked this theme for our conversation today. So this is uh a quote that I wrote down in my journal a while back. It comes from Simone Wheel, and it's a short one, but it's a powerful one. And it says this quote, attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. In my younger years of leading teams, I think I would have reworked reworded this quote. Back then I might have said, service is the rarest and purest form of generosity. Because service was always the standard I was aiming for. I wanted to be useful, I wanted to be dependable. I wanted people to know they could reach me, count on me, and find me when they needed something. My door was open, my calendar available, I was responsive, engaged, and always moving. But what I've come to understand is this being available is not the same as being present. There were plenty of moments when I was technically there, answering the call, sitting in the meeting, listening to the update, and still not fully with the person in front of me. My body was in the room, but my mind was already on to the next thing, the next meeting, the next decision, the next problem to solve. And people can feel that. The kind of leader who understands that attention is not a strategy. It is a form of care. That when someone brings you something real, a concern, an idea, a failure, a hope, the least you can do is offer your fullest presence. That sounds simple. It isn't. Presence is harder than people make it sound. It is not a permanent state we achieve. It slips, it wavers, it disappears the moment the mind starts rehearsing, fixing, planning, or reaching for what comes next. Trying to stay present can sometimes feel like trying to hold water in your hands. Maybe that's exactly why it matters so much. In a world shaped by urgency, distraction, and performance, giving someone your undivided attention has become a rare act. It costs something. It asks us to set down our own momentum long enough to truly honor the person in front of us. And when we do, something shifts. People soften, people open up, people tell the truth, people feel that they matter. That's what people need from leaders more than we often realize. Not more polished answers, not more impressive words, not more performance. They need to feel that for a moment they have your full attention, that they are not competing with your phone, your schedule, your inbox, inbox, or your internal rush. That right now, in this moment, they have you fully. Sometimes it is measured by how fully we are willing to arrive. So I want to offer a real-time reflection on this because I think this is one of the greatest topics and themes possible, and one of the hardest things to do, if I'm completely honest. One of the first people who ever embodied this kind of presence from me in a way that truly caught me off guard was a man I met years ago when I was in graduate school. At the time, I was in a travel and field-based master's program where each semester took us to a different region of the country. We had started that term in Portland, Oregon. And over a school break, I found myself in San Francisco looking for a practicum experience. I knew I wanted to spend some time somewhere that could teach me what it meant to live in an intentional community. Back then, there were no cell phones. On our bus, which served as our mobile classroom, there was a small library and a book listing places in the region that welcomed students for short stays and learning experiences. So when we stopped in town for groceries, I found a payphone, made a call, and somewhere on the other side said, Yes, come on down. That place was OHI Foundation in Oi, California. I took the bus there, got settled into a yurt, and the next morning joined a small group for a morning circle. There were maybe eight or ten of us on the land. The leader, I'll call him Ron, gathered us, talked us through the day, and paired us for different kinds of work. My assignment was to chop and stack wood in preparation for winter. That sounded just fine to me. I was young, strong, focused, and very task-oriented, and I got right to work. The person I was paired with was moving at a slower pace, and I could feel myself growing impatient. I wanted to get the job done, finish the task, and maybe carve out some time later in the day to go off for a hike and explore. At one point, Ron came to check on us. He must have sensed the energy between us because after a few minutes, he gently suggested we stop for a break. He had coffee for us, and I remember feeling almost irritated by that. In my mind, the interruption made no sense. We had work to do, but Ron saw it differently. What became clear over time was that he was not especially concerned about how much wood we got chopped that morning. That wasn't really the point. The wood needed to be stacked, yes, but the deeper purpose of the work was not productivity alone. It was participation, it was connection, it was learning to be with one another through shared labor, to feel the weight of the wood in your hands, to notice the rhythm of the acts and to pay attention to the land, the season, and the people beside you. Ron was not detached. He was deeply engaged, but he was not driven by outcome in the way I was. He was paying attention to something I could not yet see, that the real work was not just the task before us, but the quality of the presence we brought into it. That lesson stayed with me. Because sometimes the most important thing happening in the moment is not the task at hand, but the person beside us, the pace we're keeping, the spirit we're bringing, and the part of ourselves we are either losing or finding in the process. So, Martha, as you heard the meditation and the reflection, what stayed with you, what stirred something inside you? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

When I looked at the four that you gave me, I I just felt like this one is is kind of a core piece to well, to living, to be honest with you. It goes beyond just being uh an important aspect of being a leader. And I I actually saw it from a variety of ways. I saw it about not only your bringing your attention to it, but also being attentive to your needs as well. So it has so many ramifications, you know, it it can be the attention you bring to the other person, but also the attention to what you can offer and what you can't offer, and being honest about that and uh in in your interactions, you know. I I know that you are also a fan of Brene Brown. She's mine, you know. I what I like her when she says clear is being kind or something like that. I can't remember exactly what her phrase is. Of course, you know, I'm 70, it's taken me, and I'm still learning this. But it it stuck with me the importance of being clear and and also being aware of what is going on for someone else. Uh, and when I I say someone else, I because I can think of a student, I can think of a staff member, I can think of a client, a professor, you know, uh, what they need or what they what are they saying to me or what are they what also is not being said, and being attuned to that as best you can. So the the idea of giving your full attention is is the goal. And sometimes you reach it, sometimes you don't. And uh, but it's always the most important thing to try to do. That's that's the thing that came to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Well, I love your comment right there around the idea of being present first and foremost for our own selves, what our own needs are, those sorts of things, not just the idea of showing up, being present for other people's needs. And I'm wondering about as you evolved as a person and evolved as a leader, whether you can see a direct correlation with when you started showing up more for yourself, you became better or more effective at showing up for others.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Because as you were saying in in the piece that you you presented, is how can you be fully present if you're not really clear about what's going on for you? And again, this is something I learned way down the road from when I started, more leadership level, is sometimes it isn't right that moment, you know, you have to almost plan. Uh, and I started to do that more. It's like, okay, this is I'm hearing that this person needs something, but right now is not the best time because I they don't have the time to deal in, and and I don't think I could get there with them. So it's like you you you plan you plan a time to be there. And I got better at at that in certain cases. Um, and I can think of work-related and also personal, you know, um with my children and saying, Oh, okay, I'm not gonna be able to go down that road right now. Got a, you know, so I I used to they they would complain about, well, let's go for a drive, you know. I would, I would do a drive, and it would be the way that I could hear better and they could be, you know, you're not staring at each other, and you just and you and it, I know it's a cliche, but it really is actually quite effective. Uh and Anne was very effective as when I was running the passages program, when I would, because we would pick up students and drop them off, and many of them didn't have transportation. And the drive is where you have some of your more deepest conversations. And so the importance of recognizing the the time that it might you might need to be fully attentive and know that it could be right then and there, or it could be at a different time. The other thing that I, you know, because when I first started out, I was like, you, you know, let's get these things done. Let's and we're we're all like that. We're young, we've got energy, you know, we we want to see things done and completed and move on to the next. But as I got better at that, at recognizing that it will get done and and just knowing that, like it took many years of saying, okay, I have all these things, I know I'm not gonna get to them all. Whereas before I'd be just like, oh, I didn't get to them all. You know, I was I was kinder to myself as I got older. But as it when I got older, some of the things that I would do that that were meaningful for me too, because I would get to know both my staff and students, is I would go in and I would just kind of present myself in the office and just and just say, hey, hi, how are you? And just listen and just uh hear. Um because our job is really stressful. We we would see students who were struggling with huge situations, well beyond our control in some cases. And it's emotionally difficult, emotionally difficult to handle. But as I got better at that, you know, I I would just find a way to just hear and sometimes nudge, you know, like I I would say, you know, I I you seemed teary yesterday. I was just curious what was going on, you know, that that kind of approach. Some of that comes from my expressive therapy work, you know, because part of that is is about listening and observing and and noting what is being presented, what is not being presented, and the person is just not ready to present. You know, I mean that's you gotta be that's the other piece of attention. It's not about, you know, diving in and trying to dig out whatever is the core issue in the other person. It's it's just that simple act of being there for now and building on that. And that takes time, and that's part of it, is it takes time. And sometimes as leaders, we want to push and get to the end result faster, and you and you just can't. It really is about building. And through attention, you build trust, and the more you build trust, the more you can provide attention and and the more you'll be able to develop that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

So yeah, that's really beautiful. I I think about a simple motto, I guess, that I used in working with youth. Uh, and for whomever uh was working with youth that would listen, I would just always say you you gotta win the right to be heard. Yeah. Oh, that's good with youth. And and that requires a ton of it, requires a long-term approach because you can't win the right to be heard in the first five or six interactions. It requires a coming back to. So I have a couple questions uh for you around the Passages program, but first I wanna ask you that a question around like before you had language for presence as a leadership approach or within yourself, was there someone who Embodied it for you, like I mentioned in the reflection of this person, Ron. Someone whose way of listening or showing up made you think like this is the kind of person or leader I hope to become.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah. I'll have to say my father, actually, to be honest. Great.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Say more.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

He he, when I came along, I was the youngest. And by then, I think he felt comfortable in his own skin. Up till then, he was the breadwinner and and you know, he was about raising children. That was the mother's job and so forth. When I came along, he was a lot and a lot softer and loving because I think he was also more comfortable in himself. Uh, I know it's a source of contention with my sister and brother that I got, I got the better deal. But he he also was president of a hospital, several hospitals. And what I noticed even at a very young age, you know, we would go in and visit him, and I get to swirl around in his chair, is he really took time to to talk to people. You know, he'd walk down the hall and and he would talk to the janitor, you know, mopping the floor and say, How's it going? And we'd go by the switchboard operator, if you remember those. That dates me. They would all they would all say hi and they would joke, which, you know, in some places you you don't joke with the president, you know. To me, if you're able to joke with one another, you're there's a more ease, I think, um, with understanding each other. And I granted, I yeah, I was young and I knew that he, I didn't know that as a president, I'm certain certain people were, you know, just being nice because he was. But I don't think so because I met too many people who talked about him and and how um his impact on their life. I remember one woman who who was very nice. She was, I think, the communications director at the hospital. And I got to know her because I was going through, I had, you know, one of my biggest transitions, I had a I had to go for surgery at a very young age, and I had complications and ended up having to stay with my parents when I in my just after graduating college. And it was and it was it was serious. I was an ICU for a little bit. And I got to know her, and my parents were of the old school that, you know, once you're feeling good, even I was on crutches, you you you work. So I ended up working at the hospital um doing EKGs in the old days, you know, the tapes on crutches. And I got to know her. And she she later, after they talked, she has always wanted to go into um uh the faith world. And he he encouraged her. And she said he was the first person to really hear that this is something I want to do. And he and she did, and she ended up going on and and having her own uh fairly large church, I think in Philadelphia, and and they stayed in contact, and I I knew that. So I mean, that was like one example, you know. He he I always felt hurt by him and loved, even when I, you know, made some huge mistakes, and even when I was terrible to him, you know, in my teen years, I was awful. I knew I could always count on him, you know. Yeah, so so it was kind of deep in there at first.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

That's that's one of my Yeah, it's it's um I think you bring up a really I don't wanna be over dramatic here, but I I do think that watching people in leadership positions and how they treat I don't know if the right word is essential workers, but people who are there to serve the system as opposed to the people, you know, the custodians. And and I remember my father, his office, they had uh um, and this is dating back, but an elevator operator. Okay. His name was Richie. And the way he treated Richie, Richie's eyes would light up when he'd see my dad. And my dad was the president of this organization, and and it was so telling on me that it it wasn't because Richie would make sure he got on the elevator first or any. It wasn't anything about other than this to not see him as the elevator operator, but to see him as part of just the human aspect of it, the the the humane aspect of it. And anyway, so I really appreciate you sharing that story about your father in that way. I I was intrigued by your bio and the things that you sent me because I I wasn't I didn't realize how much you had stepped into systems or programs or organizations that were transitioning again and again. And I'm uh it maybe want to ask you like, how have you, how did you, how have you learned to stay present to the people inside of those transitions, inside the struggle of what whatever might have been going on, instead of just focusing on the problems that needed to be solved?

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah. You know, I think one of the the my very first what I consider real job and formative job was one I did not seek out. Uh, and that was director of residential services for Kent County Mental Health Center. I just happened to go in. I I was struggling because I couldn't find, I couldn't find work as an expressive therapist. They were very, I came from the West Coast, coming to the East Coast. My degree was not in the from the East Coast, and there's a certain, you know, belief that those degrees that are the most uh worthy are those in the East Coast. Um anyway, so I just I I my husband was in school and I just applied for an overnight job. And I was there talking to the woman, and she just looked at me, she closed the door and she said, I I know this is totally out of the blue, but I think you could run this program, and I would like to offer you the directorship of running, not just an overnight aid. And I was so young, I was, you know, just out of graduate school, and I was just like a little floored by it, to be honest with you. But uh at the time it paid more, and I I needed it. So I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna do this. But it was from scratch, it was a brand new program, and this was back during de-institutionalization, um let's see, 80, early 80s. And I had to go into the state hospital and decide who should come out, and the responsibility of that was so heavy. I mean, over time I realized I it took a toll on me. Because me being responsible for to just to decide who I think is going to make a successful transition, who has been in a state hospital for years, some for decades, that that was a huge responsibility. And I did not go into it lightly, it was extremely tricky. Um, remind me of the question again. I forgot.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah, the the question was in and around like when you stepped into these systems and you recognized that they were in transition, you were being put there for transition. How did you show up for the people rather than just show up to solve the problem? Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

So that that responsibility is stayed with me. I needed to be responsible to the people, even though the system was going to be new and different. And it actually helped me to look at what we were offering. Because at the when I took the job, it was only for opening a group home with the potential of opening another. The thing about it is that at that time, no one wanted a group home of mentally disabled adults in their neighborhood. It was pretty, you know, what you're you're the crazies are coming out, you know, that kind of thing was really heavy. And I had to go to community meetings and talk it through, etc. And they did not see the the responsibility of determining who I think can make it. Uh, and so that that hung with with me. And you know, these are human beings who've basically been shun shuttled away, and they now have this opportunity, but they also need an opportunity to grow. And they were fearful, and they are only one degree separated from you and me, you know, and others don't see it as that. But it also keeping their needs in mind was the the impetus for me to also look into and acquire supervised apartments where there's more autonomy, because there were several individuals who I knew. A group home ascending was just another state, you know, ward. Uh and they were way be, they needed something a little more. And then also we started foster homes uh for adults and those who still needed some guidance. Um, so I learned early how important it was to keep those the individuals' needs first while I was growing this organization.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Well, before I ask this next question, because I'm not sure I would know how to define what expressive therapy uh means. So uh could you give a definition to the audience what uh you mean by expressive therapies? And then I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Okay. A lot of people hear it as art therapy. At the degree I got, they were very particular about expressive therapy. They that was the term they wanted to use. I mine is very much on the visual part, it wasn't music therapy. So I I also struggle with expressive therapy because it could be musical, it could be a variety of things. But mine was focused on art therapy, the use of uh creative materials that help to open you up to things that maybe even you are not conscious of. And it could be through paint, it could through clay, it could be um drawing, it could be, you know, building sculptures or whatever, but oftentimes the process of creating really unlocks a different part of your brain and can be a therapeutic tool, whether or not you are using it for uh in conjunction with a therapist, you know, some people do a creative process just on their own because it is therapeutic to them, or it's a way of gaining some knowledge. And my focus at the time, and and part of it was driven by my own experience of being in the hospital and uh going through a traumatic uh thing. I wanted to focus on kids who've gone through some traumatic and chronic health issues, and so that's where I ended up uh doing my internship at the James Graham Brown uh cancer research center with kids with leukemia. And it was a way of kind of looking at what was going on for them because especially at that time, it was uh one, the survival rate was much less than it is today. Today it's it's much higher. But the other part of that was uh the belief at the time that parents you really don't need to tell the kids what's going on. And you know, the kids know it, know something's going on. And that was pretty tough, you know. I watched several kids pass away, and one whose parents refused to acknowledge with him that he was sick. And I at I was young, I did not have kids, but I felt like that child was lonely. And so it was through the art creating was a way for us connect to connect. And I couldn't say anything, but I could connect. And um that was important, you know, that attention.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Well, yeah, thank you for defining that. And you may have answered my question around this because um I was gonna ask you, like, obviously, your early road or journey into leadership kind of began in the arts and the expressive therapies. And I was gonna ask like how that early formation shaped the way you listen, the way you notice, the way you stay attentive to what's happening beneath the surface with people, as you know you've been in a in a uh a service leadership role your whole life. But I'm wondering about the arts and how it might have taught you how to listen and notice and and be attentive to the people whomever you were working with along the the last you know 30, 40 years.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I I think it was a great start to how to do that because uh I used to always say that one of the things I I I want to remain is curious. And curiosity is is also part of when you're when you're creating something or you're talking to someone else, and I'm I'm surrounded. My husband is furniture designer, artist. Uh, my daughter's an art teacher, my other daughter is very creative and a writer. You know, I'm I'm surrounded by people in that realm. And the thing about the creative process is being able to notice the obscure thing, you know, like, oh, you know, this you're not using any yellow. I'm just curious about that, you know, why why is that? Um uh and so to notice what is there, but also to notice what isn't, you know. And um, of course, my brain is now forgetting, but the contrast, you know, the negative and positive space there. That's that's an old art term. Um, and I still do stuff, I love textiles, I like to um do a variety of textile things. So the positive and negative space and how important they are to each other. And I always think about that in terms of people, you know. We we we've got our our outward, what we see, but then there's that part that no one sees and yet people pick up on. Yeah, yeah. Um, have you ever heard of the Joe Hari window? Have you heard of that? No, I haven't. No, no. It's it's a quadrant, and this was something I learned in in educational leadership. Uh, and I'm probably gonna totally bastardize it, but it's it's about these four quadrants, you know. One quadrant is you know about it and people know about it, about you. You know, think of yourself as four quadrants. You know about it and the people know about it. So you so there's no hidden thing. The next quadrant is you know about it, but other people don't know about it in terms of you. And then the next quadrant is they know about it, but you don't know about it. And then the final one is they don't know about it and you don't know about it. And uh look up, it's J-O-H-I-A-R-I. It probably stands for something that I uh window. And I was always curious about that because you know, watching my family, watching my uh growing up, I I saw things that uh that the people that were showing saying things or whatever were just not they weren't it wasn't being expressed or it wasn't really being forward, but I knew this about that person and they did not know, you know. Yeah, and we all have that, we all have that. Um and I found that to be the most it ties very much to the creative process to me, you know, that there is a positive and negative, that in order to be vibrant, you need both, you know, and rich. Uh when you look at artwork, you do need those things. And it is the the part of us that makes us very complex and rich human beings, and why we are always having to grow and and learn and and face up to stuff. Um, another writer that I love, uh he's primarily in educational field is Parker Palmer. Have you ever heard of Parker Palmer? Oh yeah, oh yeah. The um hidden, the undivided life, you know. To me, that's the striving piece to what's internal is external, and what's external is internal, so that so that you are living a truly undivided life in how you think, how you believe, how you and how you're acting on those beliefs, uh, etc. You know, my my dad used to say, always look at what people do, not just what they say. You know, that's an old one. And it's true, you know, watch what people do, and you will have a better understanding.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Well, that's really why I you know created the book, but created the podcast, but was in and around this idea that the external ourselves and the role of leadership externally, our ability to show up in that space. My contention is the more work we've done on the internal, it uh allows us to live that undivided life as a leader. Um, which brings me really to my question, which is like when you look back on your career, where have you seen the absence of real presence do the most harm inside institutions that were supposedly built to serve people? Leaders who externally might be showing up in a particular way, but internally uh might have been a mess, or the the systems created inside the institutions were such a mess, but that they were all built to serve people, but yet they were might have been unconsciously or unintentionally doing harm. And I'm I I'm not asking you to go into specifics about where it was and who it was, but I'm really just asking about like where have you seen the absence of that type of presence or that that integrated self as leaders when it's not there? What happens?

SPEAKER_01 42:46

I think what I take from that, and I have seen it in a variety of places. I I mean, unfortunately, our public schools are designed in such a way that sometimes they really aren't there for the students. I mean, that's the whole reason why I ended up working at Wayfinder. And I saw that with my own daughters. Um, I knew that they could learn and they were fine, but the school was just not meeting their needs, you know. And part of that is public schools, and I I am a champion of public schools, I really am. But the system itself is designed in some ways that it loses sight of their primary function, which is working with all students and all needs. Um, so there's one area. Um I think the other part that happens with organizations, and this is something that, you know, I I've seen both at the university level uh when I was in UMass, is when the leadership strays from the mission, to me, then there not well integrated, whatever it is. They're losing sight, and maybe it's chasing something. It could be money or it could be getting somebody of prestige to to run up a college or something like that. And then it starts splintering off. And like the organization, you know, that the last organization I went through, it went through a mission drift. It had this wonderful reputation because of the start and how important it was that they were meeting the needs of youth. But over time, if you're not paying attention to what the the students need and whether or not the sort the organization has to change in order to meet the needs of each and new generation of students, especially if you're serving youth, there are new challenges that they're facing. And sometimes organizations hang on to their first initial gem of an idea that ran its course, you know, and it they're just unable to give it up. And it's not that they have to give it over, they have to be open enough to see oh my gosh, you know, kids aren't graduating. Why are they not graduating? Well they they still get all this other stuff. Yeah, that's right. But our the goal of being a school is to help them to graduate. Why are we starting another program that is supposed to help them with graduating when the focus of the school is on graduating you know the it's hard questions and you have to be willing to to hear hard questions as an organization and yourself. Or you're just not equipped to continue, you know, and it's time to find new leadership. And I so I was always very conscious of I got to keep true to the mission and you've got to have people around you are willing to say hey you're off course here. You know it and if you only want to put people in place and I don't want to get into our current situation who are just want to say yes ma'am you've got all the answers then your organization is going to slowly drift. So I think it's it's kind of lost track of the first question. But I, you know, I I think you have to always think through who you're serving and why you're serving them.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Gotta ask that over yeah it makes me think of the the window quadrant um I forget what you called it but in some ways in that situation the kids know but the adults don't and uh and because they're so the the the leadership is so focused on past techniques or past ways of doing it like this is how we've always done it. And yet the youth are like this isn't working for me and therefore they know we don't and so I I like the I someone coined this not me but and uh forgive whoever was more wise than me who said it but you know culture mirrors the leadership yes culture mirrors leadership and um so you've been in all these spaces and and that sort of thing and my contention throughout this is the 36th episode and it's amazing how many times the theme that gets circled back to a lot has to do with the idea of self-awareness. And I'm curious about because I like to ask anybody who's willing to share and about like how do they what what has been your mirror to provide you you mentioned you have to ask hard questions or you have to be able to hear hard questions. Meaning like what is uh strategies if you put in place to make sure you've got a feedback loop that um provides you perspective and self-awareness so that you aren't in a situation where they know but you don't I think it comes down to who you hire you know looking for honesty valuing that even when it's hard to hear.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Yeah I think that's that's part of it is all my jobs except for one where I hired everyone all my jobs I entered uh a an organization and so you find the people who you can have those honest conversations with I'm blessed with a husband who's has no qualm in telling me he thinks I'm way off and two daughters who are also quite quite eloquent when they want to say you you are not on target here, which I'm glad for you know I'm I'm but it I have to laugh when you were asking that um when I first went in was studying expressive therapy you know I was so excited I was there and I was you know I want to learn and and I this is my mission in life and I'm going to do this. And the one of the professors who was from Lithuania said and so now you must find a therapist. And I was looking at her me I need a therapist what do you mean well I'm here to help other people you know I and so that was my first foray into therapy and um through many years of therapy. And I laugh at it now because it's such a such a thing that happens to a lot of people who go into service you know there's this feeling that oh we're gonna help you you know and uh because we've we somehow have all the skills and you don't so we're gonna help you. And the reality is you know oh my God I'm so it and when it hits you your face turns beet red and you're like oh I'm also fallible and I'm also got all these problems. So it's it's a good equalizer and it's an important thing to realize that that um I always liked Ram Das's phrase you know we're each just walking each other home and um you know one is not better than the other and keeping that in mind and recognizing it and and uh luckily I've always wanted to be around people who are fine with humor because humor I think also kind of gets at that and we can laugh about it pretty easily um and my family we we have some pretty heavy laughs over the foibles we we bring to each other.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

So yeah. Yeah well thank you for sharing that I am curious uh just in terms of we've got just a few minutes left which is amazing because it's gone super fast. Wanted to flip the script to see do you have any questions a burning question for me on this topic? Well I know that you talked about the first person that helped you kind of focus to realize what it means to be attentive where was the first leadership lesson for you like when you were running something where you you revisited and realized oh I gotta get I gotta find that again I got to keep keep that forward because usually those are to me those are the those are those places where we really do grow when we see a slip or yeah I I would have to say I've built a couple organizations and in in the early days and those organizations being focused on youth development and youth and I think that my skill set was so strong in working with youth themselves and I really understood what it meant to be fully present in their space an example like showing up into a a school which I think is one of the harder things to do a middle school or a high school and just be in the hallways without an agenda just as a loving presence that's gonna smile at kids and give them a high five or a fist bump or whatever it might be with no agenda. And kids were so confused by that they were like what are you doing here? And I'm like you're here that's why I'm here and I'm not here for a meeting I'm just here to see you and it was so confusing but where the lesson came from I was early on so much I didn't at first make the transition to trying to be that same type of presence for the people who were working towards the mission of doing that with youth meaning that the people on my team that once I understood that again culture mirrors leadership that I needed not just to do that for the kids we were serving but I needed to do that with the people we were hiring that was the leadership lesson. And that was kind of a painful thing to realize again a mirror and self-awareness because they knew but I didn't and I needed to get but they could see that but saw a disconnect inside and so I just needed to take all that in and adjust and it just required I knew why I wasn't doing it and it was just because I had too many things to do on my to-do list when I got back to the office when I got back from that hallway and that I I just couldn't I wasn't figuring out a way for time management to prioritize those relationships and the way I was prioritizing the youth that we were working with. So I that's how I'd answer that. I think it's a really great question and um I'm really glad I learned that lesson.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Yeah for sure that's that's I I think one of the biggest lessons I learned was with the one of the final transitions that I was a part of there was real movement to close the school totally and um I couldn't understand what the thinking was behind that uh because you know we had significant funds we just needed to run more sustainably and we had to figure out something but I knew I couldn't do it alone and there were some some staff who were like I see the writing on the wall I'm I'm out of here and um I really went to them and I said look this is what I would like to suggest and I was pretty I was pretty emotional about it. I said because I think there's there's elements of this that is really needed. It's still needed the school and uh I said but I need your help I really I cannot do this I cannot propose this without knowing that you're there with me. And showing that vulnerability again it gets back to some of the lessons that you talk about being vulnerable and others is showing that that vulnerability and asking for help also makes you human that you know because leaders are just human beings they're not any there's no great sheikhs about them. They're just human beings so it it it shows a different side of you and it was a way that also cemented a little more the the attention to each other. Yeah yeah yeah well we're down to our last question and I'm wondering when someone leaves your presence after being uh led by you or working alongside you what do you hope they have felt not just about the work but more importantly about their worth well my goal in life has always been to to treat everyone that they are worthy essentially and they have they are valued it's a hard one because I you know I was also raised I was born in the 50s I was raised during a time when you know certain values are different uh for everyone and yeah or what we've been raised with is different so that was always my goal but I have to and you can cut this out but uh when I was doing my expressive therapy one of the things they did is do an acting course you know and so I was in this acting course and we we were all trying to do this stuff and finally the guy said okay okay okay we know we're trying to do it nicely and whatever and he said look all of you stop I want to tell you one thing right now there is someone out there in the world who thinks you are an asshole no matter what you do no matter how you behave no matter how kindly you you they think of you that way so I need you to stop trying to please everyone and just be yourself. And it was kind of free it was like that's true you're not gonna not everyone's going to love you you're not gonna leave everyone feeling great so it has to be an internal drive you know and and I think that gets back to you know the the undivided life for me is is yeah okay that one didn't work well I can tell but I want to understand and and be respectful and and I learned a I I've learned a lot so much from my students. I mean I still remember one student who she was lovely and we still stay in touch and she was telling me about how my sister called me from two o'clock in the morning she was in Portland she needed got off the bus from being out west and I got two kids and she wanted me to pick her up and I was just like are you kidding me I I don't have any gas you know I and in my middle class upbringing I was like well she can just sit there in the in the bus station until you get the kids off to school and you can you know and the student just looked at me said but she's my sister and I just realized I was putting a value judgment that you know I was not being aware you're absolutely right you know she can drive you nuts but she is your sister and you love her and you don't want her to languish there in a bus station. But I had I came at it from my own kind of upbringing my own culture and uh that was a big lesson for me. And um there were many others going through a clearness committee process like Parker Palmer that that's very helpful. Um anyway so yeah those those are some thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Yeah thank you Martha well I am deeply deeply honored you joined me for the podcast today. So thank you for joining and um if you would just stick around as I wrap up for a couple minutes I'll get to say uh more proper goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

All right thank you okay so I want to just share a couple things that I'm taking away from my conversation today with Martha uh we started in a place where I thought she brought up a really uh important perspective which is it's really really difficult to be present for others if we're not first present for ourselves. The idea of being aware and acknowledging what our own needs are and being able to attend to those so that we can when we do show up in work spaces we can be more present for the people around us. And I really thought that that was incredibly uh wise and and uh wonderful I thought just her bringing up Renee Brown's idea of clarity is kindness our ability to be super clear others is incredibly kind for them on the other side or the receiving side of that clarity as opposed to always guessing uh about what we need what we want what we meant what we felt what we whatever it might be and so I thought that was a really just one of those wonderful aha pieces that clarity is kindness which uh Brene Brown coined I think I love that she brought up that her father was somebody who was a model for her when it came to presence and she highlighted the times where people who were in his orbit that may not have sat at the boardroom table with him as president, but were the people who were responsible for all the day-to-day tasks that help keep the engine of a hospital running and his ability to treat those people just like he would anybody in the boardroom. And I just uh I think that is one of the greatest litmus tests of whether that's a genuine act whether or not you can really um trust someone in a leadership position as to how they treat people who are not in the same position or in the same orbit of them within any institution. I love the fact that she brought up the idea of curiosity her early beginnings in the art allowed her to learn more about curiosity and creativity both the positive and the negative space and what it means to always not just look for what is there but what is missing and being able to bring that up in a way that furthers the creative process in others as a way to really being present for them. And then finally you know in her answer about what does she hope that people would leave her presence feeling she mentioned that she hoped that her goal in life was that they would leave feeling valued and feeling worthy. And I can't think of two concepts more important than that. And that's kind of why I wanted to invite her on because those are two things that I always felt in her presence. So before we end I just want to offer two reflection prompts and here they are to ask yourself who in my life or leadership might be experiencing me as available but not truly present who in your life or leadership might be experiencing you as available but not truly present and two what habits what distractions or what internal urgencies keep you from offering others your full attention in closing I just want to thank Martha for joining me today for her kindness her care and her willingness to just share her 30 to 40 years of experience with this audience I'd like to thank Omar for producing this episode. You have such a gift in making these things sound so much more amazing than what I think that they're gonna sound when I send you the links in the audio file. So thank you. If you found something meaningful here today would you consider sharing the episode with someone else that simple act helps grow this audience one person at a time and if you have a reflection or thought from me you could reach me at Don at carpentercompany consulting dot com. Thanks for listening and always remember the journey of leadership begins within