When Providence Moves

In this episode, Don reflects on what happens when leaders find themselves waiting for certainty, when what the work may really need is commitment, and how the path often begins to appear only after we take the first step.

He is joined by Beth Benedix, an educator, writer, filmmaker, and founder of The Castle, whose work in rural Indiana has helped illuminate the strength, complexity, and possibility of young people and the communities that shape them. Together, they explore Providence, faith, creativity, rural education, the courage to build something from the heart, and what it means to trust the moment when leadership asks us to move before the whole path is clear.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what happens when leaders find themselves waiting for certainty? When what the work really needs is full commitment? That question brings us into this week's meditation and into a reflection on commitment, uncertainty, and the strange grace that sometimes meets us only after we take the first step. Because leadership does not always begin with a plan. Sometimes it begins with a tug in the chest, a quiet knowing, and a decision we can no longer avoid. Exploring these hidden dimensions of leadership is at the core of this podcast. To help us navigate them, each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience brings the theme to life. It's all in the service of the deep inner formation that true leadership asks of us. And today I get to have that conversation with someone I met through one of those unexpected turns of providence, the kind that reminds you how one conversation, one invitation, and one shared moment of recognition can open a door you didn't even know was there. Today, my guest is Professor Beth Benedicts. Beth is a professor of emerita, of world literature, religious studies, and community engagement at DePaul University, and the founder and director of The Castle, a nonprofit in Putnam County, Indiana, that partners with public schools to create more hands-on, relevant, and high-impact learning experiences for young people growing up in that community. She is also a prolific writer, a musician, and a producer of an award-winning documentary, North Putnam, which explores rural education community and the lives of young people growing up in her part of the country. I met Beth in March of 2025 when I was invited to speak at the South by Southwest Education Conference about what it takes to raise aspirations for rural youth. To my luck, Beth was in the audience that day. And afterward, she came to tell me about a documentary she had just completed about rural education and her community. She invited me to see it that afternoon at a showing at the conference. I showed up, and honestly, I was blown away. What moved me most was how deeply familiar it all felt. Different place, of course, different young people, different local story, with so many of the same strengths, tensions, tack challenges, and hopes that I've seen in rural communities throughout my own life and work. Beth brings to this conversation the heart of an educator, the mind of a scholar, the courage of an artist, and the deep love of someone who has spent years listening carefully to the lives of young people, college students, and the communities that shape them. Beth, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Thank you so much, Don. It's such a pleasure to be here.

unknown 3:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

You're so welcome. I'm so glad you came to that session and I got to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

So Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Well, before we jump in, I want to share meditation 43 from my forthcoming book. And the meditation is titled When Providence Moves. It's a theme that Beth picked for our conversation today. And in my journal, I wrote down a quote by W. H. Murray. It's a pretty well-known quote, but when I first read it, boy, it struck me. And here it goes. Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and creation, there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans. That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. I remember sitting in my car outside the trekkers office, the letter of resignation folded in my hand. I had just told my board I was stepping down almost after after almost 18 years. No safety net, no next job lined up, just a tug in my chest. I could no longer ignore. And the quiet knowing that it was time to leap. I had built this from the ground up. It had become part of me. And in many ways, I didn't know where trekkers ended and I began. But something inside me was saying, Let go. I didn't know what would come next, but I knew I had to move. And within weeks, the email came, an invitation, a conversation, a new chapter I never could have predicted, one that would become the aspirations incubator, and later the formation of the Rural Youth Institute. But none of that unfolded until I committed to taking the first step. Every creative act I've ever taken in my life has had one thing in common. I didn't know how it was going to work. And I moved forward anyway. There's mystery built into the creative process and an invisible partnership between our willingness and something larger than us. Call it providence, call it grace, call it spirit, call it timing or the choreography of something wiser than us. But I've lived long enough to know this. It does not move until you do. You don't get the signs while sitting on the fence. You don't find partners when you're only half in. You don't stumble into new beginnings while hedging your bets. Providence moves when you do, when you commit yourself fully, not just with words or good intentions, but with a decision that echoes through your whole life. Something begins to shift. The conversation happens that you didn't expect. That is proven true in my life again and again. But the map does not appear until you start walking. And that is part of the work of leadership. Not to control every step, not to wait for perfect clarity, not to solve every variable before you begin, but to get deeply clear on what and the why, and then take the first step in faith, trusting that the path will meet you as you go. We can spend years trying to forecast the whole route. We can call it strategy, we can call it prudence, we can call it being responsible. And sometimes it is, but sometimes it's fear dressed as up as wisdom. Sometimes it's hesitation pretending to be discernment. And sometimes the thing we are calling uncertainty is really just the cost of beginning. You don't need the whole plan to move forward. You just need enough trust to act. The whisper inside you, the one asking you to create, to shift, to let go, to speak, to lead is not waiting on certainty. It's waiting on commitment. Because when you move, Providence moves too. So in my taking some time prior to the podcast today, I began to reflect on something that keeps coming back to me on this theme. And it's the idea of what it means to take leaps of faith. Not reckless leaps, not impulsive leaps, but the kind that leap up that comes when something inside you starts to feel more true than the life you are currently living. I've come to believe deeply in the philosophy of what I call, and many others do too, probably, is trusting the process. For me, that means trusting that the process I am in, even when I cannot fully understand it, is somehow leading me toward greater alignment between my inner world and my outer life. But that kind of trust requires something of us. It requires patience. It requires poise. It requires positivity. And maybe most of all, it requires faith in things we cannot yet see, but can feel deeply within ourselves. And as I mentioned, when I look back over my life, this is really what's happened at almost every major inflection point. A person showed up, an opportunity appeared, an invitation came, a conversation opened a door. Someone gave me information about something I knew nothing about. A new place called to me before I understood why. But in every one of those moments, I still had to decide. I still had to put both feet walking in the same direction. I had to commit to what was showing up even before I knew where it would lead. This is how some of the most meaningful work of my life has been born. Trekkers, Aspirations Incubator, the Royal Youth Institute, this podcast, the book I wrote, the forthcoming book I'm about to write or about to publish. Each one was a creative labor of love. Each one in its own way was earthing something out of almost nothing. But none of them came from faith alone, and none of them came from effort alone. They came from the meeting place between inspiration and commitment. Because something unseen and the daily work of bringing it to life, that for me is where providence begins to move. So, Beth, as you listen to the meditation and this reflection, what resonated with you, what stirred in you, what's staying with you?

SPEAKER_02 12:05

There's so much, and I feel like there's so many places that we can go with that. I think exactly what you said has been your experience at every inflection point has been mine as well. There's always this sort of basic tugging of, and this basic sense of there's there's some place that I need to go. I'm not exactly sure where that place is, but I feel it deeply. And then and then there is something like a leap of faith that I think also resonates with the way that you describe it, that it's it's not an empty leap of faith. There's there's a there's a a certain framework within that leap, but but but that's what it takes just to sort of jump into this space that you have absolutely no idea where it's headed, but you know that it's the place that you need to be. And then when that happens, I have this deep, I'm not a I'm not a I'm not an observant, I'm not an observant Jew, but I deeply believe in the concept of Basher, which is this, it's basically fate, but it's this idea of uh people being cut from the same cloth, binding each other, this perfect sort of seamless fit that happens only only when you're open to it happening. And um in my secular sort of life, that has happened I don't know how many times. And uh and if it happened with you, I mean that that sort of that that just serendipitous. I what I I just I didn't even I didn't even see until the last minute that you were speaking on the on the program, and and I saw it, and I thought this I have to, this this is this is the thing I most need to see. And then I you know just serendipitously saw you at Starbucks afterwards. And I things things like that happen, and I don't know what to attribute it to, but it it has never failed to be the case for me that in those moments that feel most unfettered, there's this way in which we meet our we meet our kindreds who help the way become more to have a to have a a fuller framework. We meet our kindreds who help us to to to shape it. So so much of what you said resonated with me just now.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Oh, that's wonderful. And and you're right. That's I was thinking about our our meeting uh over 18 months ago, yeah. I think through that kind of serendipitous experience. So when you hear the line from the meditation, when when you move, providence moves too, what does that mean to you? Not maybe not as an abstract idea, but at this particular moment in your leadership and life.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

When you move, providence moves to, it's so interesting because I I find myself my biggest fear in in life, not my one of my biggest fears, is this sort of sense that of uh narcissism, right? So having sort of this sense that the world is unfolding and signs and um totems just for me. And I never never want to feel that way. But in that line, there is this sort of there is this sort of feeling that we're aligned with something greater than ourselves, that if we give ourselves over to that feeling of just let it let it go, let it go and see where it takes you, it moves with you. It moves with you. And and the and the maybe, maybe what keeps it from being, you know, this great fear that I have of narcissism and and sort of being at the center of my own narrative is that it's not just moving with me, it's whatever this greater movement is, there's a way in which we're moving together. Those have been the most uh transformative moments for me is when I've been in situations where I'm collaborating with other people around a shared vision and and bringing that to life. That that to me is that's the most beautiful thing that can happen in any kind of creative setting. So I think that's what it means is that you have to you you give yourself up to it, and then you've partnered with you've partnered with this thing called providence, and it's almost like you've made this kind of contract that um it now believes that you are a willing participant, a willing kindred, and there you are.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Well, yeah, I mean, you you mentioned in your opening um thoughts about how part of this you didn't use the word mystery, but you use you said you have to be open to it. And I do think that in the work of what uh anybody uh that well, a lot of the young people that I work with, and we had them in uh the program for six years, so they got to know me really well, and um they all made fun of me for consistently talking about trusting the process. Uh, and I took that as a badge of honor, but it was it was a kind of a uh it it it could feel a little out there, and it was sometimes hard to explain uh to young people or to anybody really uh who's not open to it or hasn't um had models in their life uh because it asks us to kind of name this idea of providence or grace or timing or faith or whatever you might want to call it. And yeah, so much of leadership and and and maybe teaching too, because you know you're a professor, requires belief in things we cannot yet see. And I'm just wondering like, how do you go about sharing if this is this is obviously a piece of you, it's uh it's kind of in your DNA as well. And I think that's why we got connected so well to each other um so instantly. But uh have you attempted to share this kind of philosophy with with the young people you've worked with or the your college students or anyone?

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah, but yeah, for sure. Um the my my immediate context is my students, and it the process that I that I have always used is deeply student driven. So and it has to be because there's no way that uh providence is going to open up if I'm dictating the course of you know, learn the material in this way, uh, on this, you know, these are the things that you need to come away with having learn. So it's not to say that there isn't content that we're all together trying to master or become more connected, but my my teaching philosophy has always been um again, it's it's it's odd for somebody who's sort of a secular Jew that everything that I do is connected in some way to to Judaism. Um, but I I always thought of myself as uh there's a mystical principle in Judaism of the creation of the universe, which is called um Sum Sum. And it is, it has this the idea is that the divine contracts, becomes this almost all almost uh invisible presence, and then creates space around it so that others can can move, can create, can, can live, can form. And that that is my teaching philosophy, which is to to that in connection with what what it's it's not enough to merely just withdraw, but to kind of to also to create a space that feels plentiful and productive and purposeful and collaborative, and all of these things that I think my students crave, but don't even recognize it because the system in which we're traveling has made those desires almost anachronistic. So my approach to teaching is to try to find a way to create an environment where everybody feels that they are both independent and interdependent. And I think that really does connect very strongly with this idea of of providence, because you can't have you can't have a scripted, you know, I can't, I can't come to them at the beginning of the semester and say, the assignment, you know, the the assignment is that you're going to do X, Y, and Z. No, the the assignment is you're gonna find your connection to this material. And along the way, we're gonna we're gonna drill down and we're gonna figure out what is the thing that you feel most connected to, and that is related to the material at hand. And then that's when things just open up because for them there's freedom and there's openness and there's a chance to become who they are. So big Nietzsche quote that I'm just enamored of is that idea that that's what we're that's that's what we're here to do is to become who we are. And you can't become who you are if there's somebody, if there's some grown-up standing in the way of that becoming. So I try to get out of the way. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah, that's so wonderful. I'm I'm just gonna try to repeat a couple things back to you that I heard that have really resonated with me. And the question of, you know, how do you take this idea of trusting the process uh within an education setting?

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

It's gotta be there's a inherent belief, I believe, that there's wisdom within the entire group, not just with the professor who's in front of the class. There's incredible wisdom in the in the state, so to speak. And if you are able to create a space where each of those independent students' voice is able to come out. And at the same time, they can be collaborative, hearing the other voices within that group, and provide an opportunity to see where the flow goes to through a creative process that you're creating a space where there is independence, but also interdependence upon the overall learning community. Is that a good way to sum that up?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah, I think that that's exactly what my hope is to try to do that. And and I and I think the thing is recognizing that I'm only one player in that whole puzzle, right? So I because I have power in that space, I have a, you know, it's a it's a line from Spider-Man, right? With great power comes great responsibility. But the the idea that I need to uh hey, I need to slough off a lot of that power in order to get to the kind of space that I'm hoping that together we will be able to inhabit. And uh, but I but I recognize that the first move has to be mine because the system being what it is, uh, which I I wish that it weren't, um, power plays such a large piece in that. And so the very first thing that needs to happen is they need to trust that I have truly dismantled the power system that's in place in that environment so that they can feel safe to be able to pursue the things that they're pursuing and not feel that I'm not not feel that I'm judging them. I I think that's that's one of the one of the worst things that we can do to each other. And it's one of the most deeply entrenched pieces of the education system as I have experienced it, and one of the pieces that I've been working through the the nonprofit to to slowly try to chip away at is this this idea that that that learning, I think there's a difference between learning and education. I think education, the system that we have is deeply judgmental. I think learning is deeply a judgmental, if that's a thing. But it's that it's that judgment. And it's it's I think exactly what you're suggesting about that leap of faith is that we have that voice in the back of our head, or we have, or we have the externalized audience saying, that's a dumb idea. Why are you gonna do that? And and it keeps you from being able to make that leap. But my gosh, what if that leap is the first step to the thing, you know, the the thing that that that you're waiting to develop, to create. And so with all my being, I want to get rid of that of that voice um in in my classroom. And I would love to, I I think the the unfortunate thing in my in my opinion is that the system overall does not does not it's not about getting rid of that voice. We still have a lot of work to do when it comes to creating uh education that is top-down, that is deeply judgmental, that is deeply uh content driven to the detriment of an experience of engaging in the material. I'm I am a very large, very big supporter of content. But sometimes I think that we misjudge mastery for regurgitation, right? And um, and I I think that's a big piece of what I've been trying all these years to try to to sidestep this fear that we have of AI right now that is that has become so prevalent. I mean, I also fear I fear AI because I fear the the I fear the diminishment of the human. But in the classroom, I think that AI only becomes a problem when you are in a system that is a system of, you know, there's there's one right answer to this question. There's one right approach. So this idea of generative, if we could take that, if we could steal that idea from the from AI and bring that into the classroom and think about well, what does generative knowledge look like in the context of a collaborative learning environment? I I just I don't think AI would would stand a chance against that kind of experience. I think I think it would quickly become obsolete. And then that sounds very Pollyanna and very very Pollyanna because I know what I know what we're up against.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah, I I I I love the idea of what at the basis of what you're saying, I think is that the process of of learning is iterative iterative. It can iterate both as an individual, but also the cohort of students that you're working with. And I think probably the biggest way to explain that is um, or to give an example of that, is that no cohort of students that you're working with is ever the same as the next. And when you do open the you you give away power and turn the educational process over to young people, the outcome of that will never be exactly what happened in 2024 with that group.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Right. And that's the beauty of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I I really get what you're saying uh around that, and I hadn't thought about it that way, but I I um I wonder um if you could speak to I I I loved your ability to name the difference between education and learning, where one is uh holds a ton of biases and and and judgment, and the other one is is really just kind of a curiosity of uh of uh uh and growth and and that sort of thing. And I I wonder about what has your experience been? I I want to get to Castle and the nonprofit uh here in a second, but I also want to see what have you bumped up against a system of being in uh a university where, and perhaps you might have the president or other people who are you you are responsible to be accountable to. But how has um how has that judgment approach in supervision for you versus the the freedom to learn? Well, what's that been like?

SPEAKER_02 29:18

That uh well in a nutshell, it's why I took early retirement because I felt like an alien. My colleagues are not on the same page as I am in terms of thinking, uh, and that's fine. I want I want to just be very clear that I I think that one of the most important things to be in the classroom is authentic, and and we and we all come as you know, human beings, we walk into that room, and I think that what what what we should give each other license to do is to continue to be human beings in that room, which is not to say that we're constantly, you know, you know, just airing our dirty laundry, just what, but but we come with a set of uh just authentic realities of who we are, and my experience with power here has been horrible, quite frankly. I mean, it's been horrible. It's it's led to me being exiled and and very it's very painful because I feel I can't, I I the the decision to take this early buyout that they offered a few years ago was prompted by my feeling that there had there had to be another space where I could be able to more freely live the values that I believe. And it was never with my students. I my students and I had this wonderful connection. It was the sense that it was never going to become embedded in the system. And I'm a systems thinker to the core, that I I don't want to just be trying to you know put a band-aid and I I do believe, I do believe in the power of one teacher closing the door to his or her classroom and creating an environment in that classroom that feels magical and other, but ultimately that doesn't change the system if you have you have you know rogue individuals doing that thing. And so I took that buyout with the hope that it was a leap of faith, right? That the the leap of faith was that I would it was the universe telling me that it was a time it was time to take the next step to see if there was a way to find my kindreds with regard to this teaching philosophy that it's all about opening up space, creating this collaborative space, creating this space where curiosity is the driver. This and this isn't even original thinking of my part at all. Right, but but it was not appreciated here by my colleagues, and it was very painful. So I I made that decision. I still I I wish that I could be teaching because I think that teaching is the is the the the natural organic space for this kind of work to be done. And whenever chance I get, whenever I have the chance to go back into the classroom, I take that because to me that's my natural home. But it really is all about it's it's a power struggle. And I think that we see it in places like this, where uh we're small, and part of what we part of what needs to happen in order for the system as it is written to thrive is that you need to be thinking in terms of tribalism and territory and turf and winning students, and um, and none of that is student-centered, like absolutely none of that is student-centered, right? But it's the way that the system replicates itself. So I guess I just didn't want to participate in that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

So it I appreciate you sharing that, and it's quite the uh juxtaposition of what you're trying to create in in the overall classroom, yeah, for sure. Is that the reason? Or maybe you could share more, but was that the reason you created the castle?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

The castle was long before any of this happened. Yeah, so the castle started. I the we we had our first pro semester of programming in spring of 2012, and I left in 2020. But what happened was I think for me, I think there was a disconnect between the castle and the work that I felt that I needed to be doing in my own classroom to appease the powers that be. And when I finally gave myself license to say, why are you doing this? Like you see, you see, you see what it looks like. You know, the your your I your vision is to kind of create a space where everybody feels seen, heard, valued, and empowered. So why are you replicating a classroom dynamic where you're not doing that? So that's when the problem started with my college, really, was when I became, you know, really deeply, deeply committed to the idea of creating a space where my where my students, my students felt seen, heard, valued, and empowered. And that was about eight years later. It didn't take me all eight years, but it when it was time to come up for promotion and I was, you know, coming out of, you know, as it were, as the student-centered nutcase that I am, that's when that's when things started to go south here for me.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

So, so let me just press on that a little bit. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you were in this, you were teaching at the university and decided that that you wanted to create a space for kids that could, you know, be based that that this student-centered, that their voices could be heard, that you're you're and you began to do that. And then after a few years, you were thinking, why am I doing one thing one place but not the other place? And then decided you were gonna do it in every place, but that's when the friction started happening.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yeah, I mean, I think I I see a very strong continuum between kindergarten and college. And so for me, the systems that we're trying to address in the K-12 world with the castle are not at all dissimilar from what we're looking at in a college setting. So, you know, in the same way that the our our our students in a college setting are are products of that system. So, given that, and given that the premise going into the castle is that kids are filled with joy and wonder and curiosity and creativity and innovation, they they just come that way and we squash it out of them. So I feel that my students in the college setting have been casualties of this system that has beaten out that that beauty. And my my desire as a as a teacher is to try to find ways to help them get back to that. And so that's that's really, but but I was trying to, I was trying to be a good citizen. And I thought that being a good citizen meant doing things the way you're supposed you're supposed to do them. And and when and it felt, I felt this deep tension in my own in my own core that I wasn't being true to who I am. And not only was I not being true to who I am, but that I was doing my, I mean, it what what really mattered was that I was doing my students a deep disservice and not providing the space for them to really have the kinds of conversations that they needed to be having so that we could dig deeper into the material. And that was it. That was really the issue. Um, it was about this sense of being uh broke, you know, like a fragmented human, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, that was the word I was trying to cut uh on the tip of my tongue was that you ultimately decided that that you didn't want to live fragmented, that you wanted to you wanted everything to be much more whole. So in that case, how did you was it tough to make like so there's a lot of uncertainty that you recognize that you are kind of living in this fragmented professional space and two different worlds, and yet you don't know how it's gonna work, but you just take a leap of faith to say, hey, I'm gonna commit to this and see what happens. Was that tough?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Yes. It was it was one of the most one of the most painful decisions I had to make. And I'm still not sure, I honestly I'm still not sure if I made the right one because I I still struggle with do you try to change the system inside the system or do you try to do it from the outside? And I think predominantly, predominantly I believe that you change it from within. And so I see in myself frustration with myself that I couldn't stick it out and couldn't, I couldn't make it, I couldn't just just stick it out and make it work in the system in which I was operating. And I it would have been, you know, it it would have been fine probably. I think that, you know, one of one of the things I think that humans in general suffer from, but I I I hope that I I try not to is to take things too seriously, take myself too seriously. I want to take my work seriously, but you know, think it's it's not a it's some the poem, the love song of Jay Ab for Proof Rock. Uh it's a T. S. Elliott poem, and it's this, it's it's a wonderful poem, and it's about this man named Proof Rock who's standing outside the door of a of a party and he's listening in, and he's like, dare I go in, do I, do I, don't I, do I, do I, don't I, do I, don't I? And he and he it's like, do I dare disturb the universe? And and it's written in this very like overblown, like, yes, you walk in or you don't walk in. It's not a big deal. And I I sort of feel like in hindsight, I looked at that, at that fire. Whoops, I lost my we have the environmentally friendly, there we go, lights here that go out if you don't move for a certain amount of time. So um, but I think I looked in hindsight at that that decision as if I was disturbing, you know, do I dare disturb the universe because everybody's gonna care if I take the spy out or I don't take the spy out. And it really, it, you know, it didn't really matter to anybody else but me. So sometimes I think I just I shouldn't, I shouldn't have. I should have stuck it out, and then I should, and then I could have won classroom at a time, made the kind of change. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

I think I I I don't I don't know if I if I made the right decision, but well, yeah, I mean uh there's so much I want to press on that, but I also want to get to this part about uh I believe you're also in a transition with the nonprofit, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

So so and I'm wondering about what led to that transition in terms of uncertainty and and making a choice and committing to something. And are you in the midst right now of another leap of faith?

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Yes, I am. I have I have tendered, tendered, rendered, tendered my resignation starting July 1st as found as director. I think it still remains to be seen what that's all gonna look like, but it is a leap of faith and it it is one that I did not take lightly. There's been it's been a long time in coming, I think. I feel that this is the right time to do it because I have a wonderful board and I think that they they share the vision. And so it's the right time to step down and just have faith that it's it's gonna it's gonna do what it needs to do. But it really is it's strange and scary to think about something that I've been doing for uh 16 years to to now no longer be doing that as of July 1st. And yeah, it it felt like it felt like I needed to make a definitive because I've been saying for several years this organization's not going to be sustainable if we continue in this fashion, because we need, you know, we need a paid executive director, we need we need all these things that we don't have. And I clearly don't think that I'm the right person to move it in that direction because it if I would if you know 16 years, it would have happened by now, I think. So yeah, it's another sort of strange space of limbo of what's gonna happen next. But but that's okay. I think I'm I'm I'm ready for it. I hope.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Well, let me ask you this. So you it sounds like um but when's the buyout for the happen? Is it this year?

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Oh, from DePaul, you mean yeah. Oh, that that happened in 2020, and I took that in 2020.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, so yeah, so I'm curious as to you know, for people who build things uh with heart and it stay at it so long, like you have, and as you did as an educator. Obviously, I I'm speaking from experience here, so um, that there can be a real danger in over-identifying with the work. Yeah. And I'm wondering about um as you think about your current shift, how have you wrestled with the question of kind of where Castle will end and where Beth begins in this new this new iteration?

SPEAKER_02 43:09

I don't know. I'm a little I'm a little, I'm curious, I'm curious to see what it looks like. I I know that I know that I'm I'm gonna be very happy to not be writing grants. So I I I think for too long it has been this sort of feeling of if if I don't do it, no one else will, and that just is not a recipe for a healthy organization. So I think it I I just I I think it's it's exciting to think about where it is going to end up when it becomes a healthy organization.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Well, what do you think leaders who are in similar positions as you were in Castle? Uh, what do they need in order to trust to release something they love into the care of others? Like what does that require?

SPEAKER_02 44:11

I think it requires a lot of hard conversations. I think I think trust is the basis for all of it. But I think once you you meet people, I think you trust, I think you trust that inner voice that tells you this person is a kindred, this person sees sees the same thing that you know we're looking at the same thing. But then I think after that, it's a it's it's work. I mean, it takes a lot of work. Um we're you know, we have a two-hour meeting tomorrow where we're we're looking at, or Thursday, uh, where we're looking at what does this transition mean? What does it what does it look like? But I so grateful that there's now there's a board assembled and each person has a role, each person has has a re has a why. That that's so important, so important that when anybody that you're working with, that they have a why. And that sounds so cliche, but but it's really true. It's like what what is it about this organ if if it's about an organization that you're talking about, what is it about this organization that that brings you to it and that lights you up and that makes you feel connected to it and and and and feels like it's aligned with your own with your own passions and skill set. I think that's really, really important to have people around the table who have their own why. And it has to be bigger than just I really, you know, I like this idea. I think this is a I think this is an interesting idea. It has to, it has to be bigger than that. It has to be people who feel equally lit up by I I am a part of this, I'm a part of this engine.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, that's really uh so so true. And it sounds like you, I don't think you probably could have left without having that that foundation in place. And I am wondering, you know, this podcast is focused so much on the the idea that for leaders to make hard decisions, uh difficult decisions, requires an inner formation or an inner inner process prior to the outer language of announcing whatever change is going to take place. So I'm curious about what inner process you went through to come to a place where you were giving up this labor of love and creative outlet for your gifts, which are so um clear.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Thank you. I think I uh I think I needed to give myself and I think I needed to go through the whole process of it is a grieving process because this is you know my baby and birthed this and brought it into the world, and and now it's time for my baby to, you know, leave the leave the nest and become become what it is. And I think that it's about ego. It's about is it is the organization about me or is it about all the kids that we're serving? And I think that I held on to it for such a long time because because it gave me a sense of identity, and that's no, that's no reason to do that kind of, I mean, in a in a good way, in a good way. It feeds us, and that's a good thing. Yeah, but I went through this very long process of what is the castle without me, and it's so much more, I think, vibrant. I mean, uh there's there's so many more possibilities that open if we can find the right person that then becomes the the carrier of the vision, it's so much richer if we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Yeah, it's really well said, and so many thoughts are going on in my mind in terms of our parallel, our parallel tracks. Well, I want to just flip the script for a moment, and I've just got a couple more questions left for you. But if is there anything you have a question for me about around this idea of providence or the courage to move before the whole path is clear or whatever else?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah, I mean, I was really, as you were telling your story, I was really drawn to thinking about you in your car with your letter of resignation on your lap. And what did that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Well, it it felt a lot like you just described in the last couple minutes. I mean, the thing was is that I had come to a realization, which I'm sure you know, committed listeners over and over will probably be tired of hearing this from me. But I came to a place where I just realized that less dawn was more. And that was humbling, but true. It was very true. I knew it in my bones that I needed to, and this happened, you know, probably eight years prior to. So I just began to figure out ways to, you know, uh delegate and begin to knowing that at some point, you know, the time would come where I would feel like it was ready to to take a leap of faith. So in the car that day, it was both exhilarating, um freeing, and deeply uh saddening. I don't know. Um, I I remember um I ended in 2015, 31st, so you know the first day of 16. I I my wife and I we went to Florida for vacation, and I slept most of the vacation and uh had a hard time getting out of bed for the first time in my life. Like just and on one hand, I was deeply depressed, and at the other hand, I my body really needed it based on all the hours that you're talking about, and writing grants and driving a bus, and it's so many things that I had uh committed to, and um but by the time I got done with that vacation, I I and I had already this other thing lined up because I had given an eight-month notice, so the next step, which I didn't know was going to happen, came a couple months into that eight-month notice, which I speak about spoke about in the meditation. But I I just think that this I uh when I talk about this publicly, about leadership change and leadership succession, so much of it tends to be founders stay for between 15 and 20 years. Yeah, and um, so it seems like you're landing exactly about the right time. And I've heard many people say, including myself to other people, like, yeah, uh 18 years, they're they're going into college and I'm I've done my job. And uh so yeah, it um it took a lot of courage because I didn't have anything lined up, yeah. And uh, but I knew deep down I wanted to have a bigger impact on the state uh rather than just in my local community. And sure enough, that's what showed up.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

That's wonderful. That's I I I still feel that dichotomy between the exhilaration and the not wanting to get in the bed. I mean that sort of feeling of like, what now? What now? But with the aspirations incubator, you you you did it. You just you did it. It's fantastic. I have that same feeling of there's all of this energy that I have in wanting to make a deeper impact, and it it's undifferentiated at this point, but it's there, and I you know I'm I'm excited about trying to hone that and figure out what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, when is your um last day?

SPEAKER_02 52:42

July 1st.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Okay. Well, well, let me close uh with this question. What advice would you give to a leader who was in a space of uncertainty uh around the theme that committing to one path, committing to something even though the outcome is not uh foreseen yet? What would what advice would you give them as somebody who's going through that right now?

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Yeah. I'm not sure. I think I'm articulating this as I go. I think we commit to I think we commit to questions that we're compelled by, and that that we can pursue those questions along a number of different paths. And so if there's somebody out there who's feeling pulled to to a certain to a certain question and at the same time feeling stuck, like there's only one way to get there, my I guess my advice would be to go back to the questions, you know, go back to the what was what was it originally that you were most lit up by? What was it that you were most originally so energized by? And re just just reconnect with that that or just before you before thinking about any kind of outcomes. Because then I think when you're in that space of oh yeah, I remember this was this was my why. Then that that's when providence comes in. Um that's the moment that and I I think if you if you pre-commit to a path before you let providence have its chance to work its magic, then you might end up getting ultimately frustrated. Um it's it's sort of it's sort of like that tendency that I think we that we have in nonprofit work where we we create programs as just just by default, right? Like, well, let's create a program. And instead of getting to the, you know, thinking, thinking more, you know, with the sort of the big optic level, what is the what are the problems that we're trying to solve?

unknown 55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I think we get so quickly caught up in a let's create a program that we forget that the program is only one piece of this much larger system that we're trying to crack into. So my advice to people who are on that path is is don't don't let yourself get pulled into a program too quickly. And sit with that feeling of wonder that you know that there's this thing that you have, you you know it. You know it in your bones that you have this thing that is going to help to connect with the system, with the root, with the root of the problem that you're trying to that you're trying to address. I think that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Yeah, it's so so well said. I I am thinking about a conversation I had a couple episodes ago, um, talking about the scale of the solution, which which kind of goes to what you were saying, which is that many leaders or founders of organizations create something to address a particular problem within their community. And the next thing you know, five years later, there's no way to assess whether or not there's any impact on the problem based on what they created, because programs start running, and then you have to feed the entire system um through grants and paid employees and all that stuff without remembering why you got into it in the first place. So it's a really great reminder. And um I just know that um although things are not perfectly clear right now for you, it will come as you uh begin to make this final process in your transition.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Thanks for thanks for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Thank you for the opportunity. It's been such a really special, it's been a blessing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Oh, you're so welcome. Well, if you could just stay on for another minute or two while I uh close this out, and that way I can say a proper goodbye at the end. Well, I just want to share a couple takeaways that I have after this conversation. And I think at the uh I think what I'm taking away from it is that Beth is somebody who really lives by this credence that she talked about from Nietzsche about becoming who we are. And her life's path seems to me like an expression of iterating on what that means as she's evolved into the human being she's been, and then wanting to help others become who they are, not from a place of cookie cutter, not from a place of one size fits all, but from a philosophy that really understands that in order for a person to thrive in a classroom, they have to be tapped in, tuned in, turned on to learning. And the way to do that is to make sure that people feel safe in a learning environment, that they feel like they belong, that they're given a voice, that their choices matter, and that um they see themselves as both an independent learner, but also interdependent upon the larger collective. And I mean, that theme just rolled throughout the course of our conversation. And I personally, somebody who's worked with youth my whole life, really resonate with that. But from a leadership perspective of nonprofits or people in other professions, I think whether it's classroom or it's your team within a for-profit company or a nonprofit organization, what are we doing to turn the power over to our team to welcome their voices, to give them choices, to um create and question the very thing that we're trying to do. That way, there's more creative uh creativity in the work. I also think that it takes a human who is leading organizations to live a lot of courage to live um based on their intuition. And I also think that that came out a lot in terms of uh Beth's conversation, because her intuition has always been to go back to her why, why she's doing something in the first place, and how can I make sure that I live by those values and help others live by their own values? So, and then the thing that she said at the end, I think is worth repeating, which is that when we come to this place where we don't know where to turn, we're left with more questions than answers. What does it mean to live into those questions? What does it mean to begin to ask where were the times of my life as a person where I was most energized, where I felt most alive, because that will reconnect you to your why. So, anyway, I just want to thank her for her time, her wisdom, and her willingness to share so much of her lived experience, um, both the joys and the challenges over the course of the last you know 20 years. So I want to leave you, the listening audience, with two questions for your own reflection. And here they are. Number one, where in your life or leadership are you waiting for certainty when what may be required is commitment to something, the ability to just move forward and commit to something, even though there's so much uncertainty. And the second one is what is the step you already know you need to take, but have been calling not yet because you cannot see the whole path. What is the step you already know you need to take, but you've been calling it not saying like to yourself, not yet, because you cannot see the whole path. And if it's true that providence moves when you do, what does that mean for you? So, once again, I just want to thank Beth for joining me today. It was a really a wonderful uh opportunity to reconnect with you. My thanks as always to Omar for producing this episode and your gentle care that you provide to make these episodes come to life. If you found something meaningful here today and would consider sharing this episode with someone else, that simple act really does help this community grow. And I really would appreciate it. If you have a reflection or thought you'd like to share with me, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Thanks for listening. And please remember the journey of leadership begins within.