The Mission, Not My Position

In this episode, Don reflects on the discipline of slowing down when emotion is high and the consequences of a decision may last beyond the moment.

He also explores the founder’s reflex to defend what we have built, and the hard but necessary shift from protecting our own position to discerning what is truly being asked of us.

He is joined by his sister, Christy Carpenter, Client Service Director at Gallagher Benefit Services, for a conversation about leading with passion, building trust, managing emotion, strengthening teams, and learning how to respond with wisdom when the stakes feel personal.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you, what if the hardest decisions are not the ones we make with too little information, but the ones we make with too much emotion? What if in the heat of the moment we can mistake a strong reaction for a wise response? And what if the pause we resist is often the very thing that helps us see what matters most? Those questions bring us into this week's meditation and into the reflection on what it means to lead with more than instinct. Exploring tensions like these is at the heart of this podcast. Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience helps bring the theme to life all in the service of the information that leadership asks of us. And today I get to have that conversation with a very special guest, my younger sister, Christy Carpenter. Christy and I are just over a year apart. So I've had a front row seat to her life, her work, and her leadership journey for as long as I can remember. Christy moved to Naples, Florida in 2002 and began her career in employee benefit consulting in 2003. Since then, she has built a strong and respected career in the industry, insurance industry, growing through roles in sales, client service, strategy, and leadership. Christy currently serves as client service director at Gallagher Benefit Services, part of one of the world's leading insurance brokerage, risk management, and benefits consulting firms in the country, where she oversees both the North and South Carolina markets, but also the state of Maryland. But Christy's leadership has never been defined by a single title alone or contained within the companies that she works for. She is also a sought-after public speaker, has served on multiple boards in the Naples community, and is the proud mother of two amazing boys. At the heart of Christy's strength is her ability to build relationships, energize teams, and meet people where they are. She knows how to challenge people without diminishing them, how to level them up with a gentle touch, and how to create the conditions where people feel valued, capable, and ready to thrive. She cares deeply about being great at her work, and she has never been afraid to jump on a plane, show up in person, make the pitch, and do what it takes to earn trust with her clients, members of her own team, or even members of her family. I know Christy is my sister, but I also know her as a leader who brings the energy, the passion, presence, humor, and the heart into everything she does. Christy, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Thank you so much, Donald. That was amazing. Uh that's an amazing introduction. So thank you so much for having me today.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Absolutely. Well, this is going to be fun. We'll probably go down memory lane once or twice, but we'll see where it goes. And before we jump in, I want to share meditation 25 from my forthcoming book. It's titled My Mission, Not My Position, a theme that Christy picked for our conversation today. And here's the quote I wrote down. It's an unknown person. And it says this don't make permanent decisions when there are short-term high emotions present. Don't make permanent decisions when there are short-term high emotions present. Passion has always been one of my strengths. When I believe in something, I bring energy, commitment, intensity, and a willingness to go all in. That passion has fueled some of my greatest work, the things that I'm most proudest of. But like most strengths, when it runs unchecked, it can become a liability. Especially when I've had to make long-term decisions in emotionally charged moments, quick calls, sharp turns, words said too soon. And even when I believed I was acting from conviction, what I later saw sometimes painfully was that I was actually acting from emotion. The two can feel identical in the moment, but they, of course, are not the same. Emotion is immediate, conviction is grounded. And the space between the two is discernment. I remember a time years ago when someone raised a hard but fair question about why our organization did not have a more comprehensive family leave policy. As the leader of the organization, I could feel myself move quickly into defense. I wanted to explain the history, the early years, the thin budgets, the reality of building something from the ground up. The fact that as the founder without a partner or children for many of those years, I simply had not seen the issue as clearly as I should have. And all of that may have been true, but it was not the whole truth. The deeper truth was I was defending my position before I had fully considered the mission. I was explaining why something had not happened instead of asking whether it now needed to happen. That is a subtle but important difference. Because sometimes the thing that gets in the way of good leadership is not bad intent. It is simply defensiveness. It is our need to be understood. It is our desire to prove that there were reasons, circumstances, constraints, and context behind whatever is in place. And sometimes there are. At some point I had to ask myself a harder question. Was I defending the mission or was I defending my position? That question changed everything. Because once I stepped out of defense, I could see what I should have seen sooner. A more thoughtful family leave policy was not separate from the mission. It was part of living the mission with greater integrity. It honored the dignity of staff. It supported staff retention. It helped create the kind of workspace we said we wanted to be. Over time, I came to rely on a simple question to interrupt my emotional reflection. The question was this what is in the best interest of the organization? But that question is not only for people who run organizations. Sometimes the question is, what is in the best interest of my team? What is in the best interest of my family? What is in the best interest of this relationship? What is in the best interest of the person I am trying to become? Because when emotion is high, it is easy to confuse urgency with clarity. It is easy to confuse being understood with being responsible. It is easy to confuse defending yourself with defending what matters. But leadership in any form asks us to pause long enough for discernment to catch up with emotion. Clarity does not always feel good at first, but it does feel grounded. And grounded decisions are the ones we can live with. So the next time you feel a surge of urgency or certainty or defense, pause. Ask the harder question Am I defending what matters or am I defending my position? Because the best leaders do not make bold decisions, they make wise ones, not from reactivity, not from ego, but from alignment with what's best for the whole. So I'm just going to offer a quick real-time reflection as I've had some time to reflect on this and prep for my conversation with my sister. And when I decided to give, the thing that popped up for me was a moment when I decided to give an eight months' notice that I would be stepping down as founder and executive director of something I dedicated my life to. And I thought I understood what would come next. You know, in my mind, I imagined I would help shape the transition, perhaps help identify the next leader, and maybe even be invited to stay connected through the board. After all, I had helped build the organization from the beginning. I had given it almost two decades of my life. I had strong relationships with the board. And for many years, they had trusted me with a great deal of decision-making power. But almost overnight, that power shifted as it should have. The board stepped fully into its role, and I found myself trying to hold on to a level of influence that was no longer mine to carry. That was really hard to admit. At first, I wanted to explain my value. I wanted to defend my place in the process. I wanted to believe that my continued involvement would be helpful. But through some difficult and honest conversations with board members, I deeply respected. I had to ask myself the harder question what was actually in the best interest of the organization. And eventually, painfully, I knew the answer. It was for me to let go, really let go. Once I accepted that, I could finish my remaining months with more integrity, openness, and trust. And I could begin the slow process of finding my own identity apart from the role. That lesson has stayed with me. Sometimes serving the mission means releasing the position. So, Christy, as you listen to the meditation and the reflection, what resonated with you, what stirred in you, what's staying with you?

SPEAKER_01 12:01

So much. That was really good. Um, I feel, you know, one of the things I have written down just to as a constant reminder, which is interesting, is just a simple statement. When emotions are high, discernment is low. I actually have that on my computer screen. I think that that is the essence of really trying to navigate that position between what's coming instinctually for you, you know, what your instincts are to react to something, as opposed to taking that pause and thinking it through and trying to figure out from a from a 50,000-foot view, right, away from it, what is the best next step. And you know, I personally work with you know very large teams, um, and having to navigate that on a daily basis has has been challenging, especially when you're dealing with a lot of other personalities in leadership that may or may not have kind of done this work, you know, where it's it's very truly reactionary and coming from a place of that instinct. And wherever that comes from in their from their background or perspective or you know, even childhood, you know, you're you're having to navigate a little to a decision. And sometimes that's emotion, emotionality and and reactivity is seems to be at the forefront of many, many conversations, and having to bring that back down to the mission and the goal of the organization takes time. So I tend to not make decisions quickly and get everyone to be thinking about it, and we'll regroup, right? Um, there's a lot of regrouping going on uh daily uh with my team.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, well, there's a lot in there to unpack, and um I'm sure we'll get to it. I'm glad you brought up uh that part of this is not only understanding your own ability to recognize your own emotions when it comes to decision making, but also the ability to recognize when others are at high emotion and are reacting to a decision and what that means for you as somebody that's ahead of the team. When you hear the idea of leading from the mission rather than defending your position, what does that bring up for you from your own leadership journey? I'm I guess I'm just curious about whether that distinction feels familiar to you, uh, especially in moments when you have had to pause or step back and ask what really was needed rather than simply what you might have been wanting to react to and say.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

How was I defending myself? How did I show up in conversations in which I was being challenged? Um, that maybe uh were coming from a place of, hey, you're not doing enough or you're not listening, you know, you I, you know, I you I need to you to hear my point. And it would just it was I would use the word trigger, right? Like it triggers something in me that I needed to kind of fight back or just be defensive for your uh comments earlier. Um, when it gets emotionally charged, how do we how do we stop from reacting from an internal standpoint and how it's affecting us emotionally to getting out of that and stepping into your leadership position, which is a whole different personhood, if you will. That took me, I mean, I can't even tell you how many years I've had some great mentors, but I think, you know, when I first got into my biggest leadership position, I was coming into a very kind of unhealthy environment of which people and employees had learned how to adapt to that leadership style. I was constantly reacting. I mean, and it did not build for good relationships. It felt difficult, it was hurtful most of the time. Uh, I felt very alone and I was always fighting against the grain. I guess, you know, because I wasn't mission focused and I was self-focused, I was always fighting against something that wasn't that wasn't going to uh solve itself until I until I took myself out of it and moved into that mission vision, you know, the the mission vision.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Well, I really appreciate your honesty in terms of the journey that you've been on. And I'm curious, was there a moment where you started to recognize your own ability from reacting to a situation based on wanting to prove yourself in the situation, from reaction to being proactive in a situation where you could take a step back and know that you didn't need to prove yourself anymore? What you really needed to do was to empower others in order with within your team. And I'm curious, was there a moment or a um anecdote that you might share that kind of gave you a aha moment during this process?

SPEAKER_01 18:06

There is there is. So I had been talking to one of my mentors, and a situation had resolved itself. So I was able to kind of move forward with uh moving into the leadership style that I wanted to lead in. Uh however, the team around me was still, you know, kind of mired in in in the old way, and that was going to be hard to change over time, right? So I was still kind of complaining about the reactions I was getting and kind of the I was still in the emotionality of it, you know, kind of going, well, this is still happening, and I wanted to stop. And that person basically said to me, Then you're the only one that's going to be able to change that. And you're going to be able to change that by how you react to it. So instead of coming at it from a perspective of the fight, if you will, or of the no, like, no, I can't do that for you. No, we can't move in that direction. It was more like, how can you have a conversation by bringing that other person into it as part of the solution? Um, and say, like, how do you see that happening? Explain to me, help me understand how you see that moving forward, talk to me through it and having them come to their own conclusion of either giving me a really great example of how it could work, or an example of, oh yeah, that's actually not going to work, is it? And you're like, oh, I'm so sorry. No. Uh, but it's helping them to get to the place of that empowerment, like you said, bringing people into the conversation instead of having to be the quote unquote leader that is that always has the answer. Um, or or you feel like you have to step in and start to, I don't want to say manipulate, but you know, you you have a certain outcome that you're looking for. And so you you tend to feel like you know how to navigate this, and you start to lose the perspective of that there are other people that need to feel empowered to be part of those decisions and be part of that conversation. And so, how can I have the shift of saying, you know, help me understand where you're coming from. And and coming up from a different perspective other than my own was a huge shift. I mean, I will say that single-handedly moment changed the course of my leadership style.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, so I just want to uh emphasize something that you said, just to name it, because I do think it goes to a practical way. And I'm going to be asking you a question later about some practical ways that you are able to get perspective and hit the pause button and and move from emotion to discernment. But uh one way you just named was you surround you have surrounded yourself with mentors that you trust that can give you honest feedback and um help you build your own self-awareness around some of these issues. And I'm gonna come, I'm gonna hit the pause button and come back to that because I I have this question that I've been burning to ask you. You know, one of the things that I have deeply respected about your professional journey is that you have been in a world that I haven't spent a ton a ton of time in um over the years, which is really in the for profit world. And I've had a a number of guests on, but most of my guests, I would say a majority of my guests have been from the the nonprofit world, where the where the mission is really about. In some way or perspective, changing the conditions around to help people thrive or help animals thrive or whatever it might be. But it's a it's a it's a it's a kind of a service to the community uh in some capacity. And so when you think about this idea of um serving humanity or serving a community, you know, the idea of putting the mission before my position, it comes a little easier because there's like, you know, what's in the best interest of people. And your company, I I'm making a blanket statement, but I'm sure there are you know real goals, financial goals that you as the member, the leader of your team, are uh having to hold people accountable for uh particular goals uh that will bring in certain um you know numbers that will uh and your job is to keep them accountable and keep them moving forward and empowering them and all that sort of thing. So I I just wanted to preface that to ask this question, which is when it comes to helping you focus on your mission versus your the mission of the org versus your position, how do you keep the culture there really strong when you have a team of 20 to 40 that are all being evaluated on some level on how much they can produce financially for a company? And so, yeah, that's a big heavy question, but I'm curious, it's like how do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

A great question. Uh I think, you know, my my position now is really in um just not to get technical, but you know, we are the customer service side of it. So we are delivering on the we're the retention team, right? We have to keep the money in the door, if you will. Um and so, and then how do you navigate that with how important it is and how important is that to each and every single individual on your team? Um, because everybody's motivated by different things. So from a nonprofit perspective, it's like you're pretty much hiring people that love dogs, right? If it's a dog-centered organization. Um, I don't think it's very different, honestly. I think in hiring people that really care, a customer service and what we do is, you know, we're not selling, you know, I'm not from an organization or a corporation that's selling widgets. We're selling people. And um, we're selling people to navigate one of the hardest things in our country today, which is healthcare, right? So I think that is in and of itself a mission. So I look at it very much, very often kind of like a nonprofit, right? Where that's just kind of the way I look at it is each and every person that's coming to work with us is giving up a lot, honestly. I mean, we work long hours and busy schedules and have lots of clients and lots of personalities that we have to mitigate from a client perspective. And so our teams are designed to kind of have to handle all of that and retain it and keep everybody happy when you have all those different personalities. So it comes down for me, just individually, what how are people, what are we asking of people, um, humans, and then how are, and then how can we help them thrive in an environment that really is focused on money, right? Is focused on the the end. But but how can I take that away from it and help people understand what we're really doing? And that's helping um employees and families understand how to navigate their their employee benefits, which in my world is really important because it's a whole nother uh language and it's very difficult to navigate. Um, so keeping that mission alive in creating a mission and um that's heartfelt and heart-centered is been helpful to me to help understand where people are coming from when I'm when I'm quote unquote managing them or leading that team. How can we continue to create a mission that that is not just about revenue and profits, but about people? And maybe that's because I come from a whole family of nonprofit individuals that I've seen live their passions. And and I would say I'm very passionate about what I do. I'm very passionate about the people we hire, um, ensuring that we that we are hiring the best and and that they get with when they come on board the chance to to grow and thrive and understand the mission as well that goes above and beyond profits.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, yeah. No, that's super helpful. And um, I mean, I think I've I could feel your own passion in talking about it. So I'm gonna just try to repeat back to to you what I just heard, which is that in the midst of yes, there is, you do work for a for-profit company, that you there are financial goals and that sort of thing, but where you position yourself within that organization is at a place where it is a service to clients and people. Because there is a really, really, really hard thing that faces everybody in this country, which is healthcare. And if you can help retain the relationships within your own client base and provide them information as a way to sort through all of that quagmire that comes out of the bureaucracy of healthcare, you are doing an incredible service. And you have found that to be a piece that needs to be explained and needs to be supported in the various communities that you work with or your clients have. And it is a gift, it's a it's an incredible gift that you're providing people. I know for myself how um easily frustrated I can get with uh understanding my own benefits within there, and I don't have someone like you to call. So um I can see why this is such a passion for you, and I I appreciate it. I'm wondering have you had to well let me ask it this way when your team is functioning at a high, high level, how do you assess that? Is it that you retain, is it around attainment of clients? Is that the key uh KPI or is there others?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

That's one of the the areas that they are uh that they are assessed on, right? What is the retention rate of you know that's one of our tools that we use? I would say though, from just a personal perspective, leading a team that's high functioning is one that um just because of how they're conducting themselves, their clients are their clients are staying, right? It's more of that they are finding passion in their day-to-day. They are working on teams that they feel supported and safe and have the flexibility to, you know, be vulnerable and be able to ask questions and to not have to know everything. Um, I think there's such a high, there's so much in our world that our partners and our clients are expecting from us. So much more than it used to be. Like we used to just do benefits, and now we're doing HR and we're doing uh, you know, we're doing all the things that maybe an organization can't afford to um hire within their own company. So they're kind of leaning on us to do a lot. So they're asked to do a lot of uh different things, and so maybe that's not their skill set, right? So helping them learn how to navigate within our own organization, uh, where maybe some subject subject matter experts are that they can get their, you know, that they can get their hands on, but also that they don't have to know all the answers, they don't have to be perfect, they don't have to, um, I mean, this is a lot that they have to know. It's ever changing. So constantly reminding them that it it I've been in this business personally now 23 years. I learn something new every single day because there's a new legislation that passes, right? There's something that changes tomorrow that's going to change the entire landscape of what we're doing. So constantly being on uh having to know what's next, having to be able to feel confident about expressing that. These are all things that I think, you know, as leaders, we need to ensure that the teams feel like they can, I guess perfection is something, right? Like in in leadership, it's just expecting uh people who are client service hearts, like servant hearts. Um, how do you help them, you know, realize that they aren't responsible for everything and that they can they can rely on other people to to help them through that. So I think that's been a hard, you know, it's hard in an organization that's focused, you know, that is focused on like the bottom line and these are the metrics you have to hit and all of those things. But how can we turn that around into like a human aspect? Because if you're if you're taking care of yourself and you're and you're feeling supported, I think those things come naturally.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah, well, that's well said. And um, yeah, I I've hit on this theme a lot in terms of the idea of how do you manage uh a particular system at a high, high level that's meeting its goals without the environment feeling sterile and transactional versus relational. And um, I think what I'm hearing from you is that it begins with relationships and at the same time really understanding who's on your team, because there are some people who could be subject matter experts, and all you need to do is let them cook, you know, let them do their thing. And others you need to level up a tiny bit, but you want to model that deep in relationship. I want to kind of go uh steer back a tiny bit towards the theme, and I want to get to the practical side of this. And so my question is what helps you uh slow down when you're in the midst of having to make long-term decisions when there are short-term emotions uh showing up. Like what do you actually do when you feel emotion rise, but know the decision deserves more space?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Uh well, that is definitely something that I've had to work on due to the fact that again, there's there's lots of leaders besides me that are working in the different areas that I'm responsible for. So I get a lot of calls often, you know, very high, high emotion, you know, we got to this has to be taken care of today, or this is a problem, or, you know, we got to fix it right now. And so I think one of the things that causes a pause for me, which has been great, is asking, just internally knowing there's two sides to every story. I think that's first and foremost, like a lot of things that are coming at me are somewhat linear and from one person's perspective. Like one person has called somebody, they're very upset, this person's calling me and saying this is the situation at hand, and as if this is the situation at hand, right? Where you know that there's a whole nother side of this that needs to be explored, and and it's and it's coming from a high emotion. So if we can take it, take a beat and take a deep breath and say, okay, let's uh hear you. I think it's really important to acknowledge it when people are coming at you. It's just like I hear what you're saying, I totally understand it, I could see that. Um, but I also want to take a minute to try to figure out where you know the other side of this so that it's somewhere in the middle, always. I mean, it's always somewhere in the middle, right? Um, to just try to get the other person's perspective. I try to also really encourage people, although it's not it's not a strength of many, um, to just try to express themselves with each other prior to going to leadership. I think that's also something that, you know, becomes almost like parental, where they're coming to complain about basically a sibling or, you know, a coworker that's done this to them, and there's been a lot of injustice, right? There's a lot of injustice that is that is taking place. Um, but trying to get them to be able to in the moment try to express themselves to said person. And so not creating a world where we're always having to be pulled into um conversations that sometimes just need a, they need a pause, um, but they also just need to be able to express themselves in a way that's meaningful for them. And that's hard for people. So it's also part of something I like to help people where it's like, how would I help you come up with a vernacular, I'll help you have these conversations, but I would rather they have you know linear conversations with each other. That takes a long time, it takes a long pause to be like, we're not gonna react to this right now because I think we need to think through where this is all coming from. So trying to get to the root of um an issue rather than looking at it at face value, I think stops that charge, if you that emotional charge. And I liked what you said in the beginning, you know, that emotion is immediate, the conviction is grounded, and then that discernment is somewhere in the middle. Uh, I think that's where we're all trying to get to is how can we have discernment if we're playing, you know, we're coming from all high, high frequency, where we can't seem to get to that peaceful place of just saying, okay, what makes sense here? And what is best for the organization? What is best? What's the next best step for the team to move forward? It's not always about, you know, getting rid of that one person that seems to be, you know, a problem. It's about trying to figure out how we can help that one person maybe show up a little differently.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah, that's so helpful. I well, let me ask you this. Many times, one of the things that I've had to remind myself in situations where things are moving fast, but more so let's just say uh a board member reaches out with a great deal of urgency. Now, I'm in a position leading an organization, but a board member is higher than me. And my immediate and maybe I don't agree with the decision, maybe I don't uh you know, I can't drop everything or whatever it might be. One of the things I've uh just as a cue that's helped me is that I say to myself, somebody else's urgency is not my emergency. And that is, you know, it's like it gives me permission to just slow everything down, even though there's a power dynamic there, meaning somebody above me entitled and is asking for something, but it's really not my emergency, it's theirs. And I, you know, I have other things that I'm responsible for. So it allows me to hit that pause button just for a second to say, okay, what can I give at this moment? And what can't I give? And they found themselves in this situation. I want to help, but I also can't do it to the detriment of myself. Now, again, and I think there's more of a culture in nonprofit organizations sometimes, not all the times, but sometimes to be able to say, like, listen, whereas in in much more high uh volume for-profit organizations, that could be tougher, that you the whoever's above you, their urgency is your emergency, no matter what you have on your plate. So I'm wondering about like as you face those moments where somebody else's urgency becomes your emergency, whether at family life, whether that's uh at work or in other social settings, do you have some like a mantra that you have that can um help you stay grounded enough for that discernment to show up?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Uh yes. I have, well, there's two things. Um, I think this happens a lot, obviously, working in my in the world in which I work. I feel that there are times that I don't get to take that pause because of that that higher tier saying this is what we need to do. You need to act on this. And I think historically, I'll admit my own vulnerability. Historically, I would fight that. You know, I would, I would fight back and, you know, kind of, no, no, no, you know, you have to understand, you have to understand trying to get someone else to see my perspective when when the decision really had been made and I just needed to act on it, even though I didn't believe in it. And I and I thought that for a while. And I will say, um, you know, with that comes a certain, a certain reputation, uh, if you will. So I've worked really hard over the last year to just kind of learn from my mistakes kind of in that arena. And and now I try this is what I ask myself now. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say how I feel about it. But my passion can't override, you know, the mission, right? Sometimes too. It could be the opposite, right? Where my passion is like I see something, I'm like, we gotta do it this way. Um, because I like, you know, you have that intrinsic feeling of knowing it's the right thing to do. Um, but just taking a step back and being like, this is what I'm asked to do, and I need to execute on this, it's okay to say how I feel about it. But at the end of the day, I guess the question I say to myself is if I I can't be the only one to care so much about this at the detriment to myself. I have to look at it as a whole and care about the whole and go, okay, this is what everybody wants and this is what we need to do. And I've got to act like that because I've hired, I'm hired to be a leader, right? So it's it's not everything that I, you know, I want uh to get accomplished. Um sometimes I do have to go against the grain of how I feel, but it's the it turns out to be the right thing for the organization. So I have to look at it from like, I can be super passionate about something, um, but that doesn't always make it right either, you know, kind of giving giving into the there's four people that are agreeing here, and I'm the only, I'm the outlier. So how do I how do I manage that? I will say just for my team, I know this is gonna sound trite, but you had just said something and it uh your or your urgency is not our emergency. I think we use that a lot. I also just learned something else, you know, we we are in, we do a lot for our clients, and everybody, everybody feels that their issues are urgent, right? It's yeah, and you know, if everybody has the same day where they feel like you know, the same urgency, my team's getting, you know, 25 urgent requests in one minute that they have to respond to, you know, almost simultaneously. So I've I've level set with the team saying, hey, we are literally saving PDFs, not saving labs. No, we're not the surgeons doing the work. We are the people that are helping navigate it. So things, you know, we can help. It just puts things in perspective sometimes for the team, also just to say, take a deep breath, and you know your priorities and you know, you know what's important. And so we have to take a step back and just figure out what is the most urgent and important thing, and then prioritize accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah, well said. I like uh saving PDFs, not saving lives, and um that does create a really quick ah yeah, right. We okay, and so that's awesome. And so this we're we're we're really quickly coming up on time here, but I I got a couple more questions because I wanted to get something I said in the bio that I really have appreciated about you, both as an observer, but also obviously in um our own lives. And that is just that is your humor. And I'm wondering about how humor and the energy you bring to things when used well with your team can create space or lower defensiveness and help people stay connected when things could easily get tense.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um I probably use humor as I did as a child uh as well, just kind of deflecting where people, you know, I I I tend to make a lot of humor about myself to kind of lower the guard of other people. So for instance, this week I've had a lot of technology technological challenges. Um, and so I'm leading me, but you would think I just, you know, started using um all these new technology, even though we've had it since 2020. Um I just was having issues this week. So just, you know, making jokes, you know, I think just keeping it uh the humor um where I'm just relating to people that I'm human too. Um I am just where, you know, I'm no different than. Anybody else on my team, we're all trying to figure this out together. I think kind of lowering that uh the serious threshold of like, I'm I'm the leader. It's just never been my MO. So I think just coming at it as just a human that is equally of I have my days that are flawed and I have my days of brilliance. And we're all kind of in that boat together and allowing people to see that in me, I think is important. And and that I can laugh at it, you know, and and make fun of it. I think I tend to even even the PDF um kind of analogy, I don't mean to belittle what we do, right? But it just helps, you know, people go, ah, it just gives them a break of the of the urgency of everything, right? So trying to keep that on an evil, even keel on a daily basis is I do try to try to find the humor in things because it can get pretty serious. And we gotta dilute it a little.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yeah, well, I mean, I I obviously haven't met members of your team, but I imagine if I was a consultant and started asking them, I I think they would probably agree your certain adjectives about your personality of humor and energy. I you know, I mentioned then I didn't mention this in the bio, but I'm gonna um mention it as part of this question, which is you have this incredible fearlessness about showing up in person to almost anything. I I I am amazed at how often you are on an airplane. I think that there's part of this that is just like you um have a healthy dose of FOMO, uh, the fear of losing out, um, whatever that might mean. But at the same time, it's incre it's fearlessness, but it's a confidence uh to wanting to be in the room, walking in, making the pitch. And um I don't know, I've really admired that about you. Uh it's not, I I I I'm not that way. I it takes me a lot to get on the plane, it weirdly to say. Um it doesn't take me a lot to do something in a community, but it takes a lot for me to get on the plane. And you're every time I talk to you, you're in a different place. Plus, you're, for example, you're living in Naples, but you are uh overseeing South Carolina and North Carolina and Maryland, uh, which doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense to me, but I get it, I guess. Uh you must be really good at what you do. But I'm wondering about just like how do you balance this confidence and fearlessness to go out and do all this stuff, but also balance it with humility as somebody that uh kind of makes you the person you are. Because I think those three things are um all intertwined. And I just wondering whether you recognize that and how you stay grounded in the midst of all this travel and everything else.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Well, I think uh, you know, I had just for uh listeners' perspective, I did have Florida, Georgia, and Alabama as my territory for for a good, you know, eight years. Um, I just recently took over this new territory with with the the assumption that I'm going to be living in South Carolina or at least have a place in South Carolina. So um that will be changing. Um, however, I would say even in you know, Florida's a gigantic state of, you know, Georgia, I mean, these are all big uh areas in which you know we have a lot of offices. And I I I feel like for me, connection is so important. And so not, and I believe that we can do a lot of connection through virtual means. I I definitely have been able to do that. And I find it just as successful sometimes if you're doing it the right way, right? However, I just think there's nothing, um, there's just something different about intentionality uh of connecting with people face to face and getting in as a new leader to this particular geography. It's been really important for me to just try to understand, you know. I I think I've I've pretty much met with every single person that works on every team and you know, since I took over in February. But I I think that's really important for them to understand, for me to understand who they are and what brings them to work every day. And then um, and what are some of the areas in which we have hired in my role that I can make their lives uh better, easier, you know, um driven to where they want to go. Um, how can I help them get there? But then also um having them know me and know that I'm that I am mission-driven and I and I'm I'm here for them, even though I may not be their direct supervisor, right? So um that has been to me, I just think it's important uh to create that intentionality of connection. And then even if, you know, uh I can't travel for a while or you know, you know, whatever the means are, uh I've I've built that to foundation and I will continue to grow on that foundation. And I, you know, I don't think it's um like I said, it's it's the virtual and the the physical connection that I think everyone's pretty much craving um right now. And so just keeping that in mind, uh I just I thrive better uh seeing people face to face.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Yeah, well, I think that's I think that's true. I I've seen that um you you do thrive in those environments and uh what a privilege it is to work at a company that allows you to show up in in space and time, uh even though you've got a wide range of um a service area. So I got two more questions for you as we close out. I wanted uh flip the script because you know, given our years as brother and sister, I'm curious about what question you might have for me on this subject. I'll hand the mic over to you.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Awesome. Well, I think it's probably the same question that you asked me in the very beginning. And I think it's I I think knowing you know, our history and our you know, kind of childhood and growing up, and and you know, there was a lot of reactionary uh, I think as any child child or anybody lives, like it is a very reactionary world, right? You're and so what moment did you have? Do you have a specific moment or do you have a specific uh time and place where you also had to make that shift from noticing the reaction coming from you, you know, instinctually versus a reaction coming from you that is grounded in that quiet, that quiet confidence?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Yeah, that's a great question. I do have a moment. Um, I might have shared it somewhere along the line in this podcast. I believe I've shared it in one of the books I've written, but I think it's worth repeating because it was so incredibly formative in my leadership journey. But I was on a on the Alaska ferry going up to Skagway, uh Alaska, out of Vermont out of um Bellingham, Washington. And I was traveling with Bill Winston, who you know, uh, who was a big mentor in my life. But Bill had a way of he wasn't gentle with his uh, he was a very straightforward mentor. Um, but there were many months in being a mentee of his, where uh I there were times I just really didn't like him. But but we're traveling, so he was a big, he was one of the people that got me into kind of um adventure travel or being in the outdoors and really in uh and and helping me begin to think about how I could introduce young people to the outdoors. So we did this 18-day uh trip to Alaska, and we were on the Alaska Ferry and we were having a really hard conversation about some uh issue, and I can't remember what it was, but I was highly emotional uh in terms of my reaction to what he was saying to me. And and he said, Don, listen, if there's anything I've learned in life, anything, is that if you react to something, something said, some situation, it comes from emotion, and that emotion makes IQ go down, and it can be turned back on you really quickly. And he said, What you want to do is find a way instead to respond because reaction comes from emotion and responding to something comes from a cognitive place. And he was right. I mean, he was super right, even though he may not have always modeled that for me, but he was super right. And you know, I did a lot of I couldn't sleep in that room with him uh that night. I slept on the um I slept on a what do you call it? I slept on the deck on a on a beach chair, basically, uh just to get space, but I just journaled and journaled under the night sky and I wrote it all down and I always remembered it. And it it has been, and it's true, but it's not like I've gotten that right all the time. Like as soon as you react from emotion, it's like, oh God, this is gonna make a process go much longer. It's gonna, you know, I mean, it's the reason why people continue to hit the send button when they shouldn't. It's just it's just all human nature. Uh, and and it immediately gets sent back and they're having to take down posts and it just gets right back turned back on you. And um, so it's fun to watch. Not this is weird to say, but it's fun to watch how this principle of reacting from emotion gets turned back on somebody. And when they take a beat and respond to something, maybe thinking about what's in the best interest of somebody else rather than what my best interest is, can respond from a cognitive place. And it's just one way to get out of the um reactive brain and into a more uh thinking uh brain. And so anyway, that was the moment. And uh yeah, Bill was a great teacher that way. And uh so thanks for asking.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Yeah, I love that. I love it. It's it's reaction versus response, it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

So good. Well, okay, here's my final question for you. For people listening who may be facing a long-term decision or a hard conversation with a team member, or a moment where their emotions are running high. Where or how would you encourage them to begin?

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Well, I think you just answered that question for everybody, but I think it really comes down to taking a moment. Um, I always encourage people to write, you know, take a minute to write down everything you feel and get it out on paper, whether that's to throw it away or helps you kind of get to the root of what you're feeling. I think writing down things are great, uh not sending them. Maybe write write the email, but don't send the email. Uh, let's talk about it first. Uh, you know, write down everything you feel and all the the emotions you have, but then let's let's talk about it afterwards and figure it out. Like what's a better way to say it. So just encouraging the pause, encouraging, um, I encourage hard conversations, but not without uh practice. You know, I think that takes time and that's a hard, that's a hard thing to learn how to do. Um, and not every everybody, there's a very, very few people on my team love to do that. They would rather don't tell them I said this, but you know, I need you to know this, but you can't say anything. And it's like, well, how can you navigate that, you know, with any uh reasonable reasonability and get get an outcome that that works for people? So just really trying to encourage that, but also trying to encourage people on, you know, taking a taking a breath. And again, it's okay to feel what you're feeling, again, again, acknowledging the feelings, acknowledging that there's frustration there. But then how can they let how can they turn that into something that's gonna create forward movement and peace as opposed to conflict?

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Yeah, so well said. I just as a quick follow-up, do you do much role play uh uh with team members? Like, hey, I'll be the I'll be that person, you be uh you and and confront me on this or share what you're feeling with me, that that kind of thing. Do you do that much?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

I do. I try to. There's not a lot of like raise uh hands raised to like participate, but like I'll get back to you. Um, so it's one of the things I think we should all do. Um, I offer it a lot, like, hey, I'll I'll help be that person and help you navigate that conversation. You know, nine out of ten times people really do feel like they have it. They just need it to be able to vent, and then they they get some perspective on it when they have the ability to vent. And I I often ask people when they when when I sit down with people, my especially with particular people that come with a lot of emotionality often. I I have to ask in the beginning of the conversation, am I listening today? Or am I or am I helping you solve? So, you know, I think there's some times where people just need to vent, and then you're like, How do you feel now? And they're like, Good, I'm good. I feel like I can now handle the situation. Or does it need to be something that we need to solve for? Does it need to be something that next steps are needed? And and then I listen from a different perspective. So I've learned that over time because I used to just try to solve everything and I'd get super frustrated because most of the time people just want to sort out their where they're coming from and that emotional state, um, instead of me trying to fix something for them. Um, so learning how to navigate that has been really helpful too.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah, that's great. It's uh, you know, when someone, when somebody's urgency comes in and makes it your emergency, and then being able to step back and just say, what is my role here? Is it just to listen? Is it to solve a problem? Is it to, you know, bury the body? What do you want from me? You know?

unknown 1:00:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Well, Christy, this has been uh awesome. I've been looking forward to it ever since we set this up. Uh, thank you for being my sister. Thank you for being uh so good at your work and just for showing up for so many people because I know that um in the end, that's what people will say the most about you is that you have the fearlessness and confidence to keep showing up in every um sector that you're asked to show up in. So it's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

Donald, thank you so much. That means the world to me. And uh we're we're learning every day. I definitely am not the same person I was in leadership that I was five years ago for sure. So um knowing you and having you as a mentor in my life has also really helped shape that. You have taught me a lot of valuable lessons. And I think one of them was the pause, you know, just take that pause, which is why I picked this topic. I feel like you've had a lot of impact on this for me. So thank you for your leadership.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Yeah, thank you. Um, well, if you'll stay with me uh for just a second as I close out, I'm gonna offer a couple uh reflections from my time with you and then um uh go from there. So it's amazing to me uh how this theme continues to come circle around uh again and again in different um meditations, and probably because it's the theme that is the hardest to tackle, not only from myself, but from uh a lot of um others that I coach and support. And I think about how companies and nonprofits, if if there was a way to have everybody master their emotional IQ, how much work could be done. But because there is such a such a tough thing around how people are showing up in their work based on what's going on within their inner lives and circumstances in life, it's really tough sometimes. And we as leaders have to help navigate that. But I what I loved about what Christy said was it was this topic isn't just about how we begin to think about is this coming from am I defensive in this situation because it's about my position and proving myself, or is it about the what's in the best interest of the mission? Isn't just about our own ability to kind of think through how we are going to respond to that, but also to recognize just the people who are showing up in our lives, how they're in that same cycle a lot, where they're coming to us thinking about, as she said, self-focused based on whatever circumstance is showing up, rather than mission focused. And her being able to gently recognize what was what's happening in there and to provide a voice, to provide a space, to ask the question. Do you just want me to listen? Do you want me to solve it? Do you want me to fix it? Or do you want me to bury the body? Like, what do you want from me? And I think that that ability is so helpful to teens of just saying, like, actually, I need your help to fix this. And here are some ideas that I have, but giving them a voice and turning it over and bringing them into the conversation rather than trying to fix the circumstance of what they're saying in the conversation. And I also want to say that um one of her strategies, which I thought was really awesome, was to ask people to write what that what they're feeling down before they do anything. You don't have to send, you don't have to hit the send, but write down what you're feeling so you get clear on the inner what's happening at the inner formation of what's going on in in your professional world or whatever it might be before you act. And that goes to that space that I talked about with Bill, which is like if you don't do that, you have inevitably experienced the idea of how emotion gets turned back on you. And um, and this way, writing it down, getting clear, getting grounded, and then using the writing as a way to discern what is the best path forward, to still get my my voice out there, but in a way that it can land. And I think that that's probably the biggest challenge that we all have in this work is how do I say what I'm feeling, whether it's right, what I think it's right, or it's in the best interest of the organization, but say it in a way that can be uh that doesn't put the other person on their heels so that there's a receptiveness to hear it. It reminds me of a quote that I just read that we have to heal so that we don't listen and filter things through our wound. Heal so you don't filter everything everybody's saying to you through your wound. And part of that healing is just getting in touch with what you're actually feeling so that you can um not uh just put it all out in the world as soon as you feel it. So anyway, what a great conversation. Um, I'm sure this won't be uh the last of this theme coming up again uh in future meditations just from different angles. But I do want to leave you, the listener, uh two prompts to think about. One is what is one long-term decision, hard conversation or difficult situation that you are facing right now that could benefit from a pause before you respond? What's one long-term decision, hard conversation or difficult situation that you're facing right now that could just benefit from just hitting the pause button? Take a beat, get perspective, talk to a mentor, write something down, whatever it might be, what is that one thing? And number two, where in my leadership, where in my work, where in my family, or where in all the other relationships that I have, might I def might I be defending my position instead of asking what is truly needed? Where in my leadership, work, family, or relationships might I be defending my position instead of asking what is truly needed. In closing, I just want to thank my sister again for coming and joining me. Uh, a pleasure. Gallagher is uh super lucky to have you uh working for them. So that I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

You're welcome. Uh as always, my thanks to Omar for Morocco. His team is in the round of 16. So congratulations to Morocco. Appreciate you, Omar, for producing this episode. If you found something meaningful here today and would consider sharing the episode with someone else, I certainly would appreciate it because that simple act really does grow this community. And if you have a reflection or thought you'd like to share with me, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me anytime at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Thanks for listening. And always remember the journey of leadership begins within.